Powering down Tivo

[cascadejwj]

I just bought a tivo hd and want to know if there is any difference between powering down tivo in standby mode and powering down when not in standby mode. Does putting tivo in standby ensure the disk drive is left in a consistent state if the box is powered down? Or does it matter.

So far I really like functionality of Tivo HD but wish that it consumed less power in standby mode...so I am thinking about installing a multi-day programmable timer that will completely remove power from the box during the late evening and during the day when I know there will be no programs that I would be interested in recording.

Or does anyone know of a undocumented way of putting Tivo HD in a lower power state?

[stevel]

Don't do this - you will likely corrupt or damage the hard disk over time. The disk is spinning and is in use whether or not it is in standby. In fact, you should purchase a battery-backed-up power supply (also called a UPS) for the TiVo to protect it against momentary power fluctuations.

The TiVo is constantly reevaluating the programming schedule, and if it is powered off when it wants to record something, you'll miss shows at best.

[steve614]

I have read that it is better to leave Tivo on 24/7, as hard drive spin up is more taxing to both the hard drive and the power supply.

[lessd]

I have read that it is better to leave Tivo on 24/7, as hard drive spin up is more taxing to both the hard drive and the power supply.

Not true (urban rumor) if you are talking about twice a day (I have been doing it on my computer about 5-8 times a day for the last four years..never lost a drive.) If you don't use suggestions and only record from say 6 pm to 1 am each day then you could turn your TiVo off at 4 am each night and back at 5 pm the next day and get almost 2x the life of the hard drive and use 1/2 the power, saving you about $1.60/month. TiVos are designed to shut down gracefully or each power outage would cause TiVo a big headache. You must have the TiVo on at 2am when it may re-boot itself for software updates. Some people treat this on off hard drive business like a religion, without any evidence they just know that leaving the hard drive on 24/7 is better, they feel it's just true, they know it is true so don't confuse them with any facts.

[jtown]

Just leave it plugged in and running. That's how it is designed to work. The tivo does a lot of maintenance in the background when you're not using it. The daily call is made, new programming data is downloaded and integrated into the database, your season passes and wishlists are updated to reflect the new data, etc. While the Tivo is pretty robust and is designed to handle the occasional loss of power, that generally happens once or twice a year in the average home. And it certainly CAN cause data corruption. It's rare, but it happens. The Tivo is designed to handle that. The Tivo keeps a backup partition to restore a system that's been corrupted by power loss. But this process is time consuming and could require wiping out your existing data and starting from scratch. If you start cutting the power to your Tivo every day, you're increasing your chances of causing that type of corruption by over 150x the norm.

The amount of power it uses is pretty small. It would take months (if not more than a year) to recover the cost of a timer. At 30 watts and $0.10/kilowatt hour, you're looking at $2.16/month. Is it really worth the hassle to save a buck a month? And what if you want to record something that's on in the middle of the night? You're trying really hard to defeat the purpose of owning a Tivo.

And, Les, I'm going to assume you're trolling but I'll still reply so people won't automatically assume what you wrote is correct.

Please don't misinform people. The Tivo does not shut down gracefully or otherwise when the power is cut. How could that even be possible? It doesn't shut down gracefully. It recovers gracefully from an unexpected power loss. Usually.

And your theory about hard drives...wow. The reality is frequent power/temperature cycles are hard on electronic equipment. 20 years ago, the way your turn your computer on and off "5-8 times a day" would have probably destroyed it pretty quick. Fortunately for you, today's hardware is much more robust. Your fetish for shutting down every hour or so doesn't extend the life of your drives. It's reducing the life of your drives (and everything else). But, as I said, hardware is more robust now so the shortened lifespan is longer than the service life of the equipment. With the longer lifespan of hardware, things tend to get replaced before they fail. Even when they're abused.

The best advice for computers/workstations is the same as it's been for 20 years and more. Don't turn it off unless you're done using it for a few hours.

[Mikeguy]

Actually, from figures I've seen here, one truly could conserve on energy consumption and some $ (hey, $100 over the course of the year is still $100) by having the unit truly go into an off state when it is not actively being used (such as, for many people, throughout the night; during the day). But agreed that the unit, as presently configured, is not set up for that. So that's an end to it.

[dianebrat]

Some people treat this on off hard drive business like a religion, without any evidence they just know that leaving the hard drive on 24/7 is better, they feel it's just true, they know it is true so don't confuse them with any facts.

As an IT professional managing hundreds of servers, and thousands of workstations over the past 10 years, I can assure you that the comment of "without any evidence" is flat out wrong, the stresses of the power up cycle far outweigh the stresses of it just running. Our number one failure point on drives is in the power up cycle. I've seen first hand several servers that ran 24/7 for months on end, and after a graceful shutdown in a blackout (via UPS) the drives failed on powerup never to return.

jtown's advice is spot on:

The best advice for computers/workstations is the same as it's been for 20 years and more. Don't turn it off unless you're done using it for a few hours.


I will say that in the tightly built home PC with limited ventilation, there are heat build up levels from that 24/7 operation that are a negative, but losing a power supply or motherboard doesn't damage your data the way a failed hard drive does. It's a matter of "what would I like to sacrifice?" But in a well-built properly ventilated system, that's a non-issue.

My personal approach is PC on in the AM, turned off when I go to work, then on again at night, and then on all day on the weekends.

Diane

[CrashHD]

Actually, from figures I've seen here, one truly could conserve on energy consumption and some $ (hey, $100 over the course of the year is still $100)

Where do you get $100 for the year? The figure presented earlier was $2.16/month for $0.10/kw electric. By my math, to save $100 worth of power at that rate, you'd have to have 4 tivos never plugged in, for a year, or 8 tivos plugged in half the time.

That figure for electricity is a little high, too. Mine (missouri) is $.05/kw, so I'd have to turn off 16 tivos half the time, to save $100/year. I think my tivos are the only device in my house I will allow to have all the power it wants.

I don't want to bag on anyone's power saving methods, but there are easier, more effective ways to save more power.

[cascadejwj]

The issue for me is not saving a few bucks but rather trying to reduce my power load as much as possible. I have most everything in my house on power strips so I can turn them off when not in use (just about everything with a plug consumes a few watts when "turned off")...thus my question at the beginning of the thread.

Also, I am not worried about power cycling the disk drive. Each power cycle adds a little wear to the drive but as noted earlier, they are so much more robust and I envision one power cycle for my Tivo a day.

[lessd]

As an IT professional managing hundreds of servers, and thousands of workstations over the past 10 years, I can assure you that the comment of "without any evidence" is flat out wrong, the stresses of the power up cycle far outweigh the stresses of it just running. Our number one failure point on drives is in the power up cycle. I've seen first hand several servers that ran 24/7 for months on end, and after a graceful shutdown in a blackout (via UPS) the drives failed on powerup never to return.

jtown's advice is spot on:


I will say that in the tightly built home PC with limited ventilation, there are heat build up levels from that 24/7 operation that are a negative, but losing a power supply or motherboard doesn't damage your data the way a failed hard drive does. It's a matter of "what would I like to sacrifice?" But in a well-built properly ventilated system, that's a non-issue.

My personal approach is PC on in the AM, turned off when I go to work, then on again at night, and then on all day on the weekends.

Diane

Take simple logic on this drive issue going on and off

1) You have 20 Drives split into two groups 10 drives in each group; group 1 is turn on 24/7; group two is turn on for 1 day each year, after 10 years how many drives will still be running in group 1 (none most likely) how many from group 2 (all 10 most likely as they only ran 10 days total in the 10 years)

2) Same two group of drives with group 1 going on 24/7 but this time group 2 is turn on for only 30 seconds than off for 30 seconds. That on off cycle is about 1 million times a year, now most people (if not all people) will agree the group 1 will last much longer then group 2. So somewhere between turning a drive on and off one day a year to 1 million times a year the two groups will equal out in the time they last, I have no idea what that is but i know that 24/7 is not the winner.

On servers that must run 24/7 you have no other way to operate, and I agree that after some time of running 24/7 power cycling a drive will do more harm then good, but i would bet that turning a new TiVo off for 12 hours a day will make it last longer than one running 24/7 (not 2X longer but something close to 2X)

[stahta01]

The turning on issues have at least two causes/types of problems.
1. Mechanics like motors do not start moving.
2. Power supply design related issues causing spikes, that cause damage on power up.

Over the years power turn on issues caused by Power Supply have been mostly fixed.

But, I know on motors 1/2 to 5 HP they have an start-up coil that helps get the motor moving. The start-up coils tends to fail first on these motors.

No idea if the small motors on Hard-Drive have the same issues. If they do, then they would have an average number of start-ups before failure.

Note: Many things have heat related issues. In this case, I think letting the unit cool down before re-starting would tend to prolong life. But, no idea how long a TiVo would take to cool down.

Tim S

[brettatk]

Or does anyone know of a undocumented way of putting Tivo HD in a lower power state?

no

[stevel]

If you want to shut down the TiVo in the safest way, so as to minimize the chance of data corruption, go into the Messages and Settings menu, choose Restart the Recorder, and then Restart. When the screen goes black, disconnect the power.

[Uncle Briggs]

Not true (urban rumor) if you are talking about twice a day (I have been doing it on my computer about 5-8 times a day for the last four years..never lost a drive.) If you don't use suggestions and only record from say 6 pm to 1 am each day then you could turn your TiVo off at 4 am each night and back at 5 pm the next day and get almost 2x the life of the hard drive and use 1/2 the power, saving you about $1.60/month. TiVos are designed to shut down gracefully or each power outage would cause TiVo a big headache. You must have the TiVo on at 2am when it may re-boot itself for software updates. Some people treat this on off hard drive business like a religion, without any evidence they just know that leaving the hard drive on 24/7 is better, they feel it's just true, they know it is true so don't confuse them with any facts.When you are driving down a big hill on the highway do you turn your car off?:rolleyes:

[lessd]

When you are driving down a big hill on the highway do you turn your car off?


You think turning your engine off in a car when the car is moving is like turning off a hard drive ?? In the car you may have a loss of power steering, breaks etc, or you would put a force on the transmission that it was not designed to take. How about turning it off at long lights, when i first went to PRC in the 70s that how they drove, engine off at each light..to save gas they told me.
As I first said people have strong feelings about turning hard drives on and off and even if i were correct people don't change their religion with ease.

Do you turn you lights off in you home when not in the room, that really lowers the life of most bulbs..my home lights are controlled by a home light control system (Vantage Inc) so they go off over 3 or more seconds and on over 3 or more seconds, after the first 6 months I have not replaced any incandescent bulbs in 10 years including the ones over the bathroom mirrors. I do run them at most 88% of full power so that helps also.
I only bring this up because comparing hard drives to other types of electrical and or mechanical equipment is not a fair comparison.

[Mikeguy]

Where do you get $100 for the year? The figure presented earlier was $2.16/month for $0.10/kw electric. By my math, to save $100 worth of power at that rate, you'd have to have 4 tivos never plugged in, for a year, or 8 tivos plugged in half the time.

That figure for electricity is a little high, too. Mine (missouri) is $.05/kw, so I'd have to turn off 16 tivos half the time, to save $100/year. I think my tivos are the only device in my house I will allow to have all the power it wants.

I don't want to bag on anyone's power saving methods, but there are easier, more effective ways to save more power.

As posted separetly in a distinct thread by someone else, with his own detailed analysis.

Regardless, it's moot--it's not an option with TIVO as currently built/configured.

[TolloNodre]

When you are driving down a big hill on the highway do you turn your car off?

No, I NEVER turn my car off. I put in a special garage at night with an exhaust vent.

The WORST damage to a car is when you start it up cold, with little oil pumping. That's why it's better to never turn it off. 150K+ with no problems proves my point.

I'm an auto mechanic with 20+ years in the business. Every single person with an engine problem that comes into my shop turns their car off at night. That PROVES it's wrong to shut them off.

[dianebrat]

...snippage...

On servers that must run 24/7 you have no other way to operate, and I agree that after some time of running 24/7 power cycling a drive will do more harm then good, but i would bet that turning a new TiVo off for 12 hours a day will make it last longer than one running 24/7 (not 2X longer but something close to 2X)

And I would disagree with your bet and statements, but that's why they're called opinions, and we're each entitled to our own :up: