HR20 Replaced HR10 Today--Where are the Demons?

[boneskrw]

Direct TV installed the 5LNB dish and HR20 to replace my trusty HR10 today.

First Impressions (things that I like):

RF remote is great--no need to aim remote at DVR
Jack to add external off the shelf hard drive-no hacking
Audio output jacks for both optical and coax--was running out of optical jacks on my Pioneer receiver.
Navigating the guide is much quicker than the HR10
Guide can be advanced 12 hours with one keystroke
Remote operates my HD DVD player, too
Initiating a recording is faster than the HR10
I get a whole ****house of HD channels I didn't get before

First Impressions (what I don't like)
Blue light on front panel was too bright--but it can be dimmed or turned off with front panel controls

[JohnB1000]

I'm a fan of my two HR20's The only thing I REALLY miss is the TIVO style grid guide. You can simulate it with the "Move all the way to left, press INFO" option but it's not the same.

[gio1269]

Direct TV installed the 5LNB dish and HR20 to replace my trusty HR10 today.

First Impressions (things that I like):

RF remote is great--no need to aim remote at DVR
Jack to add external off the shelf hard drive-no hacking
Audio output jacks for both optical and coax--was running out of optical jacks on my Pioneer receiver.
Navigating the guide is much quicker than the HR10
Guide can be advanced 12 hours with one keystroke
Remote operates my HD DVD player, too
Initiating a recording is faster than the HR10
I get a whole ****house of HD channels I didn't get before

First Impressions (what I don't like)
Blue light on front panel was too bright--but it can be dimmed or turned off with front panel controls

Well come to the HR20 Army. :D You must have drank a lot off Kool-Aid to be that happy on the first day! ;)
http://www.richardlucas.info/images/koad-old.jpg

Enjoy it. It's not Tivo, but a very, very nice DVR and some feel it's better.

[rickmeoff]

Well come to the HR20 Army. :D You must have drank a lor off Koo-Aid to be that happy on the first day! ;)



a lor of koo-aid (sic) indeed.

the hr20 is a decent machine, and for those of us that have become accustomed to the ui of tivo it doesnt seem real intuitive, but you get used to it pretty quickly.

my mom and dad........who are in their late 70s...... have had tivo for years, and id -never- get this unit for them as theyd be thoroughly confused with it. but hey, tivo still confuses them sometimes, lol.

are there some bugs? yes. it misses recordings (actually says it has recorded them, but it just asks you if you 'want to delete' and theres nothing there to watch) more frequently than my tivo ever did, but whaddaya gonna do?

would i prefer a tivo-based unit? yup. but we have more hd channels than we know what to do with and this is the only horse in the race. and its pretty darn good.

[old7]

Blue light on front panel was too bright--but it can be dimmed or turned off with front panel controls

To dim or turn off the blue lights: on the panel, press both the right and left buttons at the same time. Each press will dim the lights more, 4th press will turn off the lights, 5th will bring the lights back on at the brightest setting. When the DVR reboots the lights will be back on the brightest setting.

[hiker]

Has anyone figured out how to navigate in the live buffer or recorded program?
Skip to tick?
Skip to beginning or end?
Skip to live TV?
The 30 sec slip sucks, but I understand a future update will give a 30 sec skip option?

[TonyD79]

Has anyone figured out how to navigate in the live buffer or recorded program?
Skip to tick?

Press and hold FF or REW. On many universal remotes, it is press/hold then hit one more time. Many of us at dbstalk are trying to get all press and hold functions eliminated.

Skip to beginning or end?

Press and hold 30 second slip or jump back

Skip to live TV?

Press and hold 30 second slip when in buffer

The 30 sec slip sucks, but I understand a future update will give a 30 sec skip option?
The next national release may have 30 second skip. I thought I would hate the slip but I don't. After using it, I actually prefer it because I can see where I want to be. Skipping just drops you in somewhere.

BTW, my HR10 buffer controls are a bit clunky compared to my Series 2 DirecTivo. I figured that was the HD as they were good on SD. Now I have a brand spanking new HD Tivo and the controls are not as quick or reliable as the HR20s have become. They have been tweaking them quite a lot. Tivo needs to do the same. Nowhere near as good as my old Tivos controls.

[hiker]

Press and hold FF or REW. On many universal remotes, it is press/hold then hit one more time. Many of us at dbstalk are trying to get all press and hold functions eliminated.

Press and hold 30 second slip or jump back

Press and hold 30 second slip when in buffer

The next national release may have 30 second skip. I thought I would hate the slip but I don't. After using it, I actually prefer it because I can see where I want to be. Skipping just drops you in somewhere.

BTW, my HR10 buffer controls are a bit clunky compared to my Series 2 DirecTivo. I figured that was the HD as they were good on SD. Now I have a brand spanking new HD Tivo and the controls are not as quick or reliable as the HR20s have become. They have been tweaking them quite a lot. Tivo needs to do the same. Nowhere near as good as my old Tivos controls.Well, that explains why I'm having such a problem... I use a MX-3000 universal remote and the IR commands do not repeat when the button is held. Useless for these HR20 commands.

Hmmm... "new HD Tivo and the controls are not as quick or reliable". My S2, S3 and HR10 controls all work well.

[TonyD79]

Well, that explains why I'm having such a problem... I use a MX-3000 universal remote and the IR commands do not repeat when the button is held. Useless for these HR20 commands.

Hmmm... "new HD Tivo and the controls are not as quick or reliable". My S2, S3 and HR10 controls all work well.

Mine are a bit sticky, especially on HD. The improvements they have made (I am a CE tester) on the HR20 make the controls very smooth. There is a slight pause when backing up in live TV the first time as you go from live to the buffer. Tivo is always buffered, so there is no transition. But I even resorted to turning the boop-boop noises off on my HR10 as it made it more responsive. I see big lag times no my HD Tivo. That box seems to strain to do things.

As for your remote. Try to press/hold/press sequence. It is not about the repeating so much as something to do with the timing of the instructions in the box itself. I hadn't heard anyone having it not work.

1. Press and hold button for 3 to 5 seconds
2. Release button
3. Press once more

The only one I have trouble with is skip to end. The rest work.

[LlamaLarry]

I'll give your Press and Hold tips a shot tonight Tony; I was not able to get them working on my first try on my 880, but I doubt I did it the way you listed.

[PRMan]

I have a URC-200 remote, and I have the opposite problem. I press slip a couple times during a football game (especially live watching a little behind) and it skips to the end, ruining the game.

Putting both on the same button with a hold is the stupidest idea ever. Why not have one of the color buttons bring up a small menu where you could do rare things like skip to the beginning or end?

[MikeMar]

I'll give your Press and Hold tips a shot tonight Tony; I was not able to get them working on my first try on my 880, but I doubt I did it the way you listed.

I have a 880, can't get it to do the hold button thing, so can't do the skip things which is a pain to do long ff'ing

oh well

[newsposter]

bones you asked for the demons so try this: enter all your series links right now. then go back thru the guide and pick out some other shows you may want to watch and manually record them.

in a day or so, if you check your todo list you will see they 'may' be conflicts. You will not see conflicts until a day or so when the HR20 'catches up' and knows what all you want to record. The HR20 is lightning fast for a reason you know, it gets rid of tivos 'please wait' screen!

Just a warning to a new hr20 owner. I was thrilled at the speed until i learned the price i paid.

oh and also if you make a manual recording it will OVERRIDE even your number 1 and 2 series links. Be forewarned.

[badmonkey]

bones you asked for the demons so try this: enter all your series links right now. then go back thru the guide and pick out some other shows you may want to watch and manually record them.

in a day or so, if you check your todo list you will see they 'may' be conflicts. You will not see conflicts until a day or so when the HR20 'catches up' and knows what all you want to record. The HR20 is lightning fast for a reason you know, it gets rid of tivos 'please wait' screen!

Just a warning to a new hr20 owner. I was thrilled at the speed until i learned the price i paid.

oh and also if you make a manual recording it will OVERRIDE even your number 1 and 2 series links. Be forewarned.

I've never seen it take a 'day or so' to catch up. The longest I've seen is 2 hours.

[jimb726]

bones you asked for the demons so try this: enter all your series links right now. then go back thru the guide and pick out some other shows you may want to watch and manually record them.

in a day or so, if you check your todo list you will see they 'may' be conflicts. You will not see conflicts until a day or so when the HR20 'catches up' and knows what all you want to record. The HR20 is lightning fast for a reason you know, it gets rid of tivos 'please wait' screen!

Just a warning to a new hr20 owner. I was thrilled at the speed until i learned the price i paid.

oh and also if you make a manual recording it will OVERRIDE even your number 1 and 2 series links. Be forewarned.


Why wouldnt a manual recording override everything else? I would assume the same thing, if you are manually recording something you want it recorded.

The only time it should take that long to update your to do list is if you had recently had a reboot or restart and the guide data was not fully populated. Otherwise I have never had it take longer than a couple hours and usually its as fast as I can change to the to do list.

[Sir_winealot]

Why wouldnt a manual recording override everything else? I would assume the same thing, if you are manually recording something you want it recorded.

The only time it should take that long to update your to do list is if you had recently had a reboot or restart and the guide data was not fully populated. Otherwise I have never had it take longer than a couple hours and usually its as fast as I can change to the to do list.

I think what he's saying is that if you set up a manual recording ...and it conflicts with something else....unlike the HR10 which will tell you immediately that there is a conflict, you won't find this out on the HR20 until it may be too late to do anything about it.

[HoldenBanky]

bones you asked for the demons so try this: enter all your series links right now. then go back thru the guide and pick out some other shows you may want to watch and manually record them.

in a day or so, if you check your todo list you will see they 'may' be conflicts. You will not see conflicts until a day or so when the HR20 'catches up' and knows what all you want to record. The HR20 is lightning fast for a reason you know, it gets rid of tivos 'please wait' screen!

Just a warning to a new hr20 owner. I was thrilled at the speed until i learned the price i paid.

oh and also if you make a manual recording it will OVERRIDE even your number 1 and 2 series links. Be forewarned.

I have tried to record something manually and got a conflict screen right away. The prioritizer does take about a day to get it together when you first input your series links, but after that time it should work just fine, unless the box is rebooted and it starts again.

[bigpuma]

I think what he's saying is that if you set up a manual recording ...and it conflicts with something else....unlike the HR10 which will tell you immediately that there is a conflict, you won't find this out on the HR20 until it may be too late to do anything about it.

But that is only if the HR20 hasn't "caught up" which as was pointed out should take no longer than a couple of hours. So yes if you set up a manual recording within that time it may not "see" the conflict and warn you about it. Otherwise it acts like the HR10 and warns you about conflicts. It also has the added benefit of giving you a choice of what to stop recording unlike the HR10 that would only give you your lower priority number.

[Indiana627]

bones you asked for the demons so try this: enter all your series links right now. then go back thru the guide and pick out some other shows you may want to watch and manually record them.

in a day or so, if you check your todo list you will see they 'may' be conflicts. You will not see conflicts until a day or so when the HR20 'catches up' and knows what all you want to record. The HR20 is lightning fast for a reason you know, it gets rid of tivos 'please wait' screen!

Just a warning to a new hr20 owner. I was thrilled at the speed until i learned the price i paid.

oh and also if you make a manual recording it will OVERRIDE even your number 1 and 2 series links. Be forewarned.
I get a pop up that says 2 shows are already scheduled to record and lists each as line 1 and line 2. For me to record my newly requested show, I must select either cancel 1 or cancel 2. It lets me know immediately that there is a conflict, not hours or days later.

And I've never had a manual recording override any series links.

[newsposter]

my 1st use of multiquote, thanks jeff

I've never seen it take a 'day or so' to catch up. The longest I've seen is 2 hours.

Not to be a smart^^^ but Id rather know in 2 minutes, not 2 hours if i have a conflict so i can do another recording here and now. Though technically i do admit we are both babysitting, just me now and you later.

Why wouldnt a manual recording override everything else? I would assume the same thing, if you are manually recording something you want it recorded.



see i would assume that my #1 and #2 passes are the absolute things i want. period. And for something to override them without immediate notification is just plain inefficient. And yes, it is possible to forget about your top shows and if they are on this week or not etc.

I think what he's saying is that if you set up a manual recording ...and it conflicts with something else....unlike the HR10 which will tell you immediately that there is a conflict, you won't find this out on the HR20 until it may be too late to do anything about it.

YES this is my point and is entirely related to the thread title (i admit i wasn't too clear initially). The OP 'just got' his new unit and (i may be assuming here) wanted to load up the HR20 right away to get into all this great HD. That's what i did. Then i found out the bummer about the delay in the machine and delay in conflict notification and wanted to warn him of the demons he spoke of. I Learned that lesson the hard way too.

I have tried to record something manually and got a conflict screen right away. The prioritizer does take about a day to get it together when you first input your series links

it's great if all is indexed and done and you then want to add something, i agree.



It also has the added benefit of giving you a choice of what to stop recording unlike the HR10 that would only give you your lower priority number.

glad you brought up that we have a choice on a fully processed machine. That's a fantastic feature.



And I've never had a manual recording override any series links.

it is designed to work this way so you just got lucky with no conflicts
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1344374&postcount=44

[bigpuma]

Not to be a smart^^^ but Id rather know in 2 minutes, not 2 hours if i have a conflict so i can do another recording here and now.
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But that's how it works the majority of the time. The only time it doesn't work that way is if you set up series links and then set up a manual recording within a few hours. It may not see the series link yet because it does it in the background unlike the HR10 that would make you wait while it found the upcoming shows and found conflicts. How often does this even happen? I don't believe I have had this problem before. Personally I will take the speed of the HR20 vs. the small risk of missing a recording because of this scenario but YMMV.

[Mark Lopez]

I think what he's saying is that if you set up a manual recording ...and it conflicts with something else....unlike the HR10 which will tell you immediately that there is a conflict, you won't find this out on the HR20 until it may be too late to do anything about it.

Well, at least on the HR20 when there is a regular conflict, it not only tells you both conflicts, but gives you the option of which to over-ride. Unlike the HR10 which you needed to back out to find out what the other conflict was and had no real choice in matters other than over-riding the lower priority one. That was one of my biggest gripes about the so called 'superior' Tivo.

[road3682]

Point me toward the right forum if this is not the correct one/

With an XP computer can you download software to use the picture and music from your computer??
Also is there any way to transfer programs to your computer ?

Thanks
Buddy

[JimSpence]

I have a 880, can't get it to do the hold button thing, so can't do the skip things which is a pain to do long ff'ing

oh wellI also have the 880, and the jump to tick does work, albeit clumsily. Press and hold the FF button for at least 4 seconds, then release and immediately press it again. This seems to forward to the next tick mark. It is really a stupid method. Anyone know the exact method to get this thing into slow motion?

[Sir_winealot]

Well, at least on the HR20 when there is a regular conflict, it not only tells you both conflicts, but gives you the option of which to over-ride. Unlike the HR10 which you needed to back out to find out what the other conflict was and had no real choice in matters other than over-riding the lower priority one. That was one of my biggest gripes about the so called 'superior' Tivo.



You completely missed the point.

[Mark Lopez]

You completely missed the point.

What, that the HR20 does a better job of conflict resolution the majority of the times? :confused:

Or that once again the Tivo lemmings will use any excuse to bash the HR20 even when their beloved Tivo does a worse job with the same function? ;)

[Sir_winealot]

What, that the HR20 does a better job of conflict resolution the majority of the times? :confused:

Or that once again the Tivo lemmings will use any excuse to bash the HR20 even when their beloved Tivo does a worse job with the same function? ;)



Nice cover.:rolleyes:

But you still missed the point.

[Mark Lopez]

Nice cover.:rolleyes:

But you still missed the point.

Ok, then please enlighten me to just what the point is? :confused:

[daperlman]

What, that the HR20 does a better job of conflict resolution the majority of the times? :confused:

Or that once again the Tivo lemmings will use any excuse to bash the HR20 even when their beloved Tivo does a worse job with the same function? ;)

No way...
The HR20 has a way to handle it sure... but it is terrible about finding the same ep (when it is on again). More times than not if a recording is cancelled the HR20 forgets you ever wanted it (even with a repeat recording) which is piss poor.
Then again the absence of complexity makes the HR20 much faster when scheduling and shifting recordings.

[Mark Lopez]

No way...
The HR20 has a way to handle it sure... but it is terrible about finding the same ep (when it is on again). More times than not if a recording is cancelled the HR20 forgets you ever wanted it (even with a repeat recording) which is piss poor.
Then again the absence of complexity makes the HR20 much faster when scheduling and shifting recordings.

My point was that at least the HR20 gives you the choice of which conflict to over-ride. With the HR10, you have to go hunt down the second conflict and then still have to fuss with things if you decide the lower priority one (that it refuses to tell you up front) is the one you want to record. And for first runs, the whole 'finding another episode' is moot anyway until it comes around for a rerun.

[boneskrw]

You guys have gotten completely away from the point of my original post. I DON'T CARE about the nitpicking items you bring up. If there is a conflict, either the HR10 or HR20 can handle it with a semi-intelligent user. The HR20 picture quality, intuitive operation, ease of setting season passes, program grid, connectivity, ability to add an external hard drive without having Joe Hacker format it, and everything else I've seen after having the HR20 in place of my HR10 are all pluses. Don't you naysayers ever give up?

I would be interested to see what you have to say about Microsoft Windows XP and Vista. Some things are bigger than your nitpicky wishes!! People much wiser than any of us on this board understand this and do things with software instead of criticizing the quirks all of it has.

[rickmeoff]

waaaah!

[RS4]

You guys have gotten completely away from the point of my original post. I DON'T CARE about the nitpicking items you bring up. If there is a conflict, either the HR10 or HR20 can handle it with a semi-intelligent user. The HR20 picture quality, intuitive operation, ease of setting season passes, program grid, connectivity, ability to add an external hard drive without having Joe Hacker format it, and everything else I've seen after having the HR20 in place of my HR10 are all pluses. Don't you naysayers ever give up?

I would be interested to see what you have to say about Microsoft Windows XP and Vista. Some things are bigger than your nitpicky wishes!! People much wiser than any of us on this board understand this and do things with software instead of criticizing the quirks all of it has.

I'm not sure what your original point was - oh yeah, you hate the blue light and everything else is nirvana. Gee, that's good, I'm glad you like the box.
All this post and some of the others of yours that I've read lead me to believe that you use the basic functions of the box, therefore you're willing to settle for second best.

In my book, you're part of the hr20 army. Your mission here is to sell the hr20 - nothing more. You wrote a post some weeks ago purportedly asking for advice, when it was clear all along that your intention was to chide those of us who feel DirecTV has come out with a poor imitation just to fatten the wallets.

Now, in this thread, we find everything is marvelous, except one thing, after you've had the box for a short period, and now you're chiding people once again because they are bringing up flaws of your precious box.

Hey, seriously I'm glad you guys like the box. I just don't see the need for the hard sell that so many of you feel inclined to do on this forum.:eek:

BTW, you might want to reconsider your Vista thoughts - turns out it's getting rated as big fluff and lots of people are now loading XP over it, but of course my guess is you think MS is a terrific company too. I'm guessing though that you probably aren't a programmer or have paid much attention to what MS practices really are or you would have a different opinion.

[Mark Lopez]

Hey, seriously I'm glad you guys like the box. I just don't see the need for the hard sell that so many of you feel inclined to do on this forum.:eek:


I don't see anyone trying to make a hard sell. The only time things get worked up around here is when folks who have not used the HR20 try to bash it when they don't know what they are talking about. If there is any 'hard sell' going on, it's from the Tivo lemmings that are trying to resurrect a obsolete piece of equipment.

Oh and now that I have had a HR20 in my possession for over a month, my original opinion has actually changed. I now think it's even better than I originally did, and can't wait to replace the rest of my HR10 dinosaurs. :)

[sixysixss]

Excuse the threadjack. My HR20 and new dish was just installed yesterday. Is there a way to switch between the tuners like you could with the HR10-250? I cannot seem to find a way to determine which tuner I'm on and what is playing on the other tuner. Thanks.

[RS4]

I don't see anyone trying to make a hard sell. The only time things get worked up around here is when folks who have not used the HR20 try to bash it when they don't know what they are talking about. If there is any 'hard sell' going on, it's from the Tivo lemmings that are trying to resurrect a obsolete piece of equipment.

Oh and now that I have had a HR20 in my possession for over a month, my original opinion has actually changed. I now think it's even better than I originally did, and can't wait to replace the rest of my HR10 dinosaurs. :)

Well, that doesn't surprise me at all:p After all, we all know you formed your mind up long before owning an HR20, but yet you continue to chastise me and others because we make decisions without actually owning the box. You lost integrity with the poll incidence. As someone here says <go Figure>

[Mark Lopez]

After all, we all know you formed your mind up long before owning an HR20..

Yes, from actually using one. But you are correct I did not own one, nor did most others since they are leased not owned. But of course ignoring that requirement of the poll (which although a technicality, would still void most votes) is ok, but my interpretation to have met the usage requirement was not. :cool:

You lost integrity with the poll incidence. <go Figure>

Mostly just to the lemmings. ;) I stated my reasons for voting and stick by my belief that it was justified. And at least I was honest about what I did and why. Unlike those mysterious <5 post voters that came, voted, and have not been seen since. So, yep <go figure>

[hiker]

Excuse the threadjack. My HR20 and new dish was just installed yesterday. Is there a way to switch between the tuners like you could with the HR10-250? I cannot seem to find a way to determine which tuner I'm on and what is playing on the other tuner. Thanks.Not like the HR10. See the Tips document here (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=72648). Page 6 has a tip about swapping tuners ("Dual Buffers").

[cramer]

Not like the HR10. See the Tips document here (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=72648). Page 6 has a tip about swapping tuners ("Dual Buffers").The answer is No. The DTV DVR's (R15, HR20, and HR21) have two tuners but only one buffer. The "hack" is to record two things and then use the "prev" button to switch between playing them back.

I watch live tv by switching buffers. So, the single buffer interface of the DTV systems is annoying enough to be a showstopper for me. (and not so surprisingly, a fair number of other people; some of whom are no longer DTV subscribers now.)

[rickmeoff]

I don't see anyone trying to make a hard sell. The only time things get worked up around here is when folks who have not used the HR20 try to bash it when they don't know what they are talking about. If there is any 'hard sell' going on, it's from the Tivo lemmings that are trying to resurrect a obsolete piece of equipment.

Oh and now that I have had a HR20 in my possession for over a month, my original opinion has actually changed. I now think it's even better than I originally did, and can't wait to replace the rest of my HR10 dinosaurs. :)

this is freaking hilarious coming from someone who continually posted about the hr20 superiority and voted in the owners poll, yet hadnt even owned one.

i like how you were very careful not to write 'owned' and made certain to italicize 'used' in your 2nd sentence.

what a hypocrite.

[cramer]

RF remote is great--no need to aim remote at DVRYeah, that's really nice considering how poorly their IR remotes function. I've never seen any IR device be so selective. I can aim the tivo remote anywhere in the room and it works. The DTV IR remote has to be aimed pretty much dead on.
Guide can be advanced 12 hours with one keystrokeHowever, you cannot go directly to a specific time in the future like you can on a tivo. Nor can you see what was on in the past; even what was *just on*.
Initiating a recording is faster than the HR10Actually, it takes about the same amount of time to *actually* begin the recording. The HR20 doesn't ask any questions -- even when it really should. I've seen it begin a recording (light on, shows up in the list) and then, minutes later, pop up a conflict warning. This is alot like Microsoft tricks to make the OS look faster... starting with XP, they do everything possible to get the login window up as fast as possible -- your system may take several more minutes to finish booting; Vista's default power setting is to hibernate instead of shutdown...
I get a whole ****house of HD channels I didn't get beforeAnd there's the only real reason to put up with all the differences and faults.

Press and hold FF or REW.

Press and hold 30 second slip or jump back

Press and hold 30 second slip when in buffer

...And yet this is still "intuitive"? I really don't understand what's going on in the heads of DTV's UI designer's. Maybe they all used to work for cell phone makers where they only had 10 keys to work with. The DTV remote has far more buttons than any Tivo peanut, and yet they still resort to overloading the hell out of the buttons on top of them all being context sensitive.

The next national release may have 30 second skip. I thought I would hate the slip but I don't.I knew I'd hate it. And I do. On a Tivo, I hit skip 5-9 times (depending on the show) and I'm right back to watching TV; all in seconds, if not less than a second. 30 slip... hit the key repeatedly, and then sit there for almost a minute as it FF's. Hello? I can push freakin' FF and PLAY myself.

(and contrary to popular reports, they do have what Tivo patented "overshoot correction". Pay very close attention to where you press PLAY while in FF/REW; it resumes normal playback near that point.)

BTW, my HR10 buffer controls are a bit clunky compared to my Series 2 DirecTivo. I figured that was the HD as they were good on SD.Correct. The HR10 is somewhat under-powered for dealing with the high data rates of HD. Record 2 streams and try to playback a 3rd to see just how under powered it is :-) When dealing with only 1 HD stream (either playback or a single tuner), it works fine. The HR20/HR21 are far newer systems, and therefore should be substantially faster.

[Mark Lopez]

this is freaking hilarious coming from someone who continually posted about the hr20 superiority and voted in the owners poll, yet hadnt even owned one.

i like how you were very careful not to write 'owned' and made certain to italicize 'used' in your 2nd sentence.

what a hypocrite.


<sigh> Here we go again. :rolleyes: For those who didn't follow this whole Tivo lemming flame fest, I had voted in the 'superior' poll even though I had not leased one yet. I had however used one enough to meet the rest of the criteria. Now I am being called a hypocrite because I explained why I had voted and that even after leasing one, my opinion had only changed even more positive than I originally voted. But these same lemmings that want to claim I did not follow the 'rules' of the poll, ignore the fact that it was flawed anyway because no one actually owns one. Yes, just a technicality in the wording, but for those that want to nit pick the rules, then most other votes would not be valid either.

So what I find hilarious, is the extremes that some will go to try and discredit someone just because they don't agree with their opinion. This includes people out right making things up and saying that I had only used one in a store even though I had said no such thing. Of course no one still has explained the rash of <5 post people who suddenly appeared just long enough to vote. Probably just the same lemmings who are on this flame fest. But hey, I couldn't care less what you think. I had my facts straight before I leased the unit and have them straight now. The HR2X is superior to the HR10 - period. :)

[Mark Lopez]

And yet this is still "intuitive"? I really don't understand what's going on in the heads of DTV's UI designer's. Maybe they all used to work for cell phone makers where they only had 10 keys to work with. The DTV remote has far more buttons than any Tivo peanut, and yet they still resort to overloading the hell out of the buttons on top of them all being context sensitive.


I have to wonder if I have the same HR20 as everyone else. I've used an MX-500 remote for years (I don't understand why anyone these days would use an OEM remote anyway <shrug>). Nearly all of the HR20 funtions mapped over to the same buttons I already used for the HR10. The exception is the color buttons that I added to the top. Thus, after reprogramming it, I just picked up the remote and kept using it pretty much as before. Learning curve was about 5 minutes. And those color buttons allow 'shortcuts' in many of the menus and IMO makes it even eisier to use than the HR10.

[rickmeoff]

But these same lemmings that want to claim I did not follow the 'rules' of the poll, ignore the fact that it was flawed anyway because no one actually owns one. Yes, just a technicality in the wording, but for those that want to nit pick the rules, then most other votes would not be valid either.





are you serious? so since it was 'flawed anyway' because of what you call a technicality, that makes it okay to cheat?

wow.

this is one for the happy hour forum; maybe we should pose the question there about this.

thats like saying its okay to cheat on a test because you 'got the answer wrong anyway,' or because 'everybody else was cheating too.'

sorry, but no matter how you try to justify the action, it was the wrong thing to do.

[RS4]

<sigh> Here we go again. :rolleyes: For those who didn't follow this whole Tivo lemming flame fest, I had voted in the 'superior' poll even though I had not leased one yet. I had however used one enough to meet the rest of the criteria. Now I am being called a hypocrite because I explained why I had voted and that even after leasing one, my opinion had only changed even more positive than I originally voted. But these same lemmings that want to claim I did not follow the 'rules' of the poll, ignore the fact that it was flawed anyway because no one actually owns one. Yes, just a technicality in the wording, but for those that want to nit pick the rules, then most other votes would not be valid either.

So what I find hilarious, is the extremes that some will go to try and discredit someone just because they don't agree with their opinion. This includes people out right making things up and saying that I had only used one in a store even though I had said no such thing. Of course no one still has explained the rash of <5 post people who suddenly appeared just long enough to vote. Probably just the same lemmings who are on this flame fest. But hey, I couldn't care less what you think. I had my facts straight before I leased the unit and have them straight now. The HR2X is superior to the HR10 - period. :)


Sorta hard recovering you're integrity huh?:o:o

[newsposter]

dont bust on the blue light! it's wonderful. The power went out but i could see my entire living room since all the electronics are on a UPS. No stumbling around!

[rickmeoff]

dont bust on the blue light! it's wonderful. The power went out but i could see my entire living room since all the electronics are on a UPS. No stumbling around!

im with ya, i actually like the blue light (we have the unit in an armoire in our bedroom, and can always close the doors).

its pretty.

[Mark Lopez]

Sorta hard recovering you're integrity huh?:o:o

I don't consider telling the truth (unlike some here where lying is the norm) a loss of integrity. But I guess we all have our own standards. :)

Oh, and it's nice to see that they got you pegged over at the other forum. Odd that you go there just to try and bait people. Talk about integrity. :p

are you serious? so since it was 'flawed anyway' because of what you call a technicality, that makes it okay to cheat?

wow.


Please explain just how you consider it cheating? If someone asks for an opinion on a car and asks for responses from anyone who has owned one for a month, does it really matter if they owned it, leased it, rented it, or borrowed it as long as they used it for the required time? Heck the person who owned it may have driven it once and left parked in the garage the rest of the time, where the person who rented one, may have driven it every day and have a better basis for their opinions.

But again, you just want to selectively nit pick the wording as long as it suits your bashing needs.


thats like saying its okay to cheat on a test because you 'got the answer wrong anyway,' or because 'everybody else was cheating too.'

sorry, but no matter how you try to justify the action, it was the wrong thing to do.

Your analogy makes no sense (no surprise there).

Sorry, but no matter how you try to negatively spin it, IMO, I met the main usage requirement and that trumped the 'owned' requirement. But you know what, go ahead and take my one vote away if it will make you feel all warm and fuzzy. The results remain unchanged. Most consider the HR2x superior. Unless of course you want to call every one else a cheater too.:rolleyes:

Oh, and before you even mention it, I did not say anyone else cheated, I only questioned the number of single digit post count people who came out of the woodwork (claiming they had Tivo for years but yet for some reason never posted before) who voted. I still haven't seen those folks around since either. Hmmm.....

[rickmeoff]

Please explain just how you consider it cheating? If someone asks for an opinion on a car and asks for responses from anyone who has owned one for a month, does it really matter if they owned it, leased it, rented it, or borrowed it as long as they used it for the required time? Heck the person who owned it may have driven it once and left parked in the garage the rest of the time, where the person who rented one, may have driven it every day and have a better basis for their opinions.




no matter how you wanna slice it, the poll asked for opinions of people who owned ('leased') an hr20. the poll didnt ask for the opinions of folks who 'tried one in a store (or even over at their friends house).'

it was seeking opinions of those who had the time to set up the unit and their series links, and run it through its paces.

you had been touting the superiority of the hr20 for months, giving the impression that you yourself owned (leased) one.

you voted in a poll knowing full well that you hadnt met the criteria; heck anybody can get an initial impression about the unit and post about it (something you jumped down others throats about all the time). you even posted after-the-fact that you had maybe fudged a little, voting while not having an hr20 in your posession.

the fact that you are so vehemently defending your actions tells me that perhaps deep down you know you were wrong, but you just dont have enough integrity to admit the truth.




Sorry, but no matter how you try to negatively spin it, IMO, I met the main usage requirement and that trumped the 'owned' requirement. But you know what, go ahead and take my one vote away if it will make you feel all warm and fuzzy. The results remain unchanged. Most consider the HR2x superior. Unless of course you want to call every one else a cheater too.:rolleyes:





and i dont care about your vote: i care about the fact that you find it necessary to verbally abuse those who have opinions that are not the same as yours, yet you are guilty of the same things you accuse them of.

im not negatively spinning anything, there is no gray area here. im just very amused by the fact that youve taken this situation and twisted it all around in order to justify your own hypocrisy.

its like you got caught with your fingers in the cookie jar, yet you refuse to admit that you were actually after the cookies.

h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e.

[Mark Lopez]

no matter how you wanna slice it, the poll asked for opinions of people who owned ('leased') an hr20. the poll didnt ask for the opinions of folks who 'tried one in a store (or even over at their friends house).'

it was seeking opinions of those who had the time to set up the unit and their series links, and run it through its paces.



See, again, you refuse to admit that one does not have to own/lease something to spend enough time with it to know how it works. And again, you are throwing out the 'tried it in a store' line (lie) as a red herring to make it sound like I didn't actually spend any time with it. And I like how you added 'lease' to your stement even though that is not what the poll asked for. But I guess that's ok for you to make stuff up. Anyway, all of my posts prior to actually 'leasing' a unit were based on either hands-on or common sense (i.e. if one does not use DLBs and there is an easy work around, it does not matter if the unit has it).

You have no idea what 'paces' I put the unit through. Maybe I didn't personally press the series link button, but sitting next to the person who did and watching the screens is certainly enough to see how it works. And coming back to watch those shows, is good enough to see they actually work. And I did use the remote to navigate the screens (although I would not personally use the OEM one), and it did not take an IQ above 2 to figure it out in about 10 minutes.

Again, whether you want to believe it or not, I did enough 'playing' with the unit to understand nearly every function and meet the poll usage requirement. If you want to make a big deal over wording of owning vs using, that's your problem.


i care about the fact that you find it necessary to verbally abuse those who have opinions that are not the same as yours

You mean like you have been doing in this thread and others?



its like you got caught with your fingers in the cookie jar, yet you refuse to admit that you were actually after the cookies.

h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e.

Caught? :confused: I freely admited why I did what I did. How is that being caught? :confused: I could have just gone into 'Tivo lemming mode' and not said anything or just made stuff up. But whatever. So ok, I'm a hypocrite with a leased HR20 and a 1TB drive that works perfectly (as expected), and I am enjoying all of my new HD channels. :) Happy now? :rolleyes:

Oh, and for someone who is making such a big deal about playing by the rules, you have no problem violating the forum rules of personal attacks (i.e.direct name calling). <go figure>

[milominderbinder]

Not like the HR10. See the Tips document here (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=72648). Page 6 has a tip about swapping tuners ("Dual Buffers").Be warned though, the Tips & Tricks now reflects the huge improvements that they just made in the CE. We now have a great DLB Workaround (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=113126) now that PAUSE is fixed.

It does give a list of Press & Hold features and much more that are not documented.

- Craig

[gio1269]

Well, that doesn't surprise me at all:p After all, we all know you formed your mind up long before owning an HR20, but yet you continue to chastise me and others because we make decisions without actually owning the box. You lost integrity with the poll incidence. As someone here says <go Figure>
But yet you are able to form this great opinion without EVER using a HRx for even a few minutes. But if someone is happy with it over the HR10, then they are in the HR20 Army. All from a Tivo Lemming who has never even tired one.

You have absolutely ZERO credibility in making judgments about it.

I have the HR10 and the HR20. Overall I prefer the HR20. I miss only 2Tivo features. Even them I prefer the feel and speed over the HR10.

Again, you complain and you never used one. The HR10 now SUCK with the latest updates. They are SLOW, outdated and falling by the wayside.
The lack channels and even SD looks better on the HR10. Not much as D* SD sucks on newer TVs, but better than Comcrap here.

I OWN my HR10 and lease my HR20. I got to keep my HR10, no 2yr contract and the HR20 cost me $19.95!

better than the $120 I paid for the HR10. Cheaper and now better....

Just another SOUR Tivo Lemming that lost their Tivo with D* :( :(

[shibby191]

However, you cannot go directly to a specific time in the future like you can on a tivo. Nor can you see what was on in the past; even what was *just on*.

Sure you can. When in the guide just hit the menu button and choose "date & time". Choose what you want and the guide will go to that specific time. The menu is context sensitive on pretty much every screen in the UI and lots of little goodies await those who bring it up. :)


I knew I'd hate it. And I do. On a Tivo, I hit skip 5-9 times (depending on the show) and I'm right back to watching TV; all in seconds, if not less than a second. 30 slip... hit the key repeatedly, and then sit there for almost a minute as it FF's. Hello? I can push freakin' FF and PLAY myself.


What he's saying is that a true 30 sec skip is currently being tested on the HR20 and will be in the next national release. And you'll be able to choose between slip or skip to your preference.

[cram501]

I rarely post here and I'm still trying to figure out whether to dump D* or go with the HR20.

I'm trying to churn through the opinions here and figure out which way to go.

It's hard to figure out what the facts are with all the rhetoric being written down over the last year. As soon as I see "tivo army" or "tivo lemmings" I know I've wasted another hour of my time on some threads with no content and someone attempting to justify their own choice.

I don't know which is the right choice for me and it's getting harder and harder to read these forums to help figure that out.

[newsposter]

I rarely post here and I'm still trying to figure out whether to dump D* or go with the HR20.

I'm trying to churn through the opinions here and figure out which way to go.

I don't know which is the right choice for me and it's getting harder and harder to read these forums to help figure that out.

it honestly comes down to do you want the new HD on directv? If you do, go for it, no question about it. (know you probably will get hr21 with no ota) I love tivo but i am not letting some other machine keep me from new HD! (plus i still use 2 hdtivos for OTA and other stuff and hr20 only for new HD)

dont listen to all that bs you read thru. It's people with their own agendas. And they love to get in pissing matches and beat their chests. It's spilled over to dbs too and it's nuts.

[JimSpence]

I rarely post here and I'm still trying to figure out whether to dump D* or go with the HR20.

I'm trying to churn through the opinions here and figure out which way to go.

It's hard to figure out what the facts are with all the rhetoric being written down over the last year. As soon as I see "tivo army" or "tivo lemmings" I know I've wasted another hour of my time on some threads with no content and someone attempting to justify their own choice.

I don't know which is the right choice for me and it's getting harder and harder to read these forums to help figure that out.To broaden your views, you should visit this forum.
http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=112

[milominderbinder]

I rarely post here and I'm still trying to figure out whether to dump D* or go with the HR20.

I'm trying to churn through the opinions here and figure out which way to go.

It's hard to figure out what the facts are with all the rhetoric being written down over the last year. As soon as I see "tivo army" or "tivo lemmings" I know I've wasted another hour of my time on some threads with no content and someone attempting to justify their own choice.

I don't know which is the right choice for me and it's getting harder and harder to read these forums to help figure that out.Check out the HD DVR Forum (http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=112) and HD DVR FAQ (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=817199#post817199). Read what the people who own HR20's and HR21's say.

You will find all kinds of facts & opinions but no name calling is permitted.

- Craig

[RS4]

I rarely post here and I'm still trying to figure out whether to dump D* or go with the HR20.

I'm trying to churn through the opinions here and figure out which way to go.

It's hard to figure out what the facts are with all the rhetoric being written down over the last year. As soon as I see "tivo army" or "tivo lemmings" I know I've wasted another hour of my time on some threads with no content and someone attempting to justify their own choice.

I don't know which is the right choice for me and it's getting harder and harder to read these forums to help figure that out.

I agree with the others - if you are going to stay with D* and you want the new HD, then you really have no choice - that's it plain and simple. If on the other had, you love the Tivo interface and have alternatives such as FIOS or cable, then the suggestion would be to leave D*.

According to your remarks, it appears you have a choice. One suggestion I would make is to visit the D* web site and check out their demo, then go to an electronics store and check out a demo of the new box.

I view the new dvr as being made for someone familiar with computers while the Tivo interface does not require that knowledge.

[RS4]

I don't consider telling the truth (unlike some here where lying is the norm) a loss of integrity. But I guess we all have our own standards. :)

Oh, and it's nice to see that they got you pegged over at the other forum. Odd that you go there just to try and bait people. Talk about integrity. :p

.....

What I find laughable about your defense is that you focus on the Leased/owned thing when you clearly know the OP's intention was that he only wanted people to reply to the survey who had more hands-on experience than you can get in a store or at a friends.

It is quite clear that you did not meet the requirements yet you acted as if you had, and that's where you lost your integrity because you were purposely misleading us. In fact, you even mention in this thread, that now that you've actually used one, you feel more convinced.

In fact, there is a big failure with that survey. It doesn't allow for those of us to vote that have done the research, but haven't got the practical experience, as if that's the only way to make the decision. So, it completely ignored all of us who knew about the box, but decided it wasn't for us based on the circumstances at hand. So, my guess is that at least 50% of the folks looking at that poll would consider the HR20 inferior if all factors had been considered, and that compares about the same with the other polls that asked for a direct comparison of Tivo and HR20.

People can and do make intelligent decisions about what products to purchase all the time. Yes, it would be nice to get as much information as possible and sometimes that includes hands on experience. But to say that is the only criteria to make a decision is wrong. So, in fact I don't have a problem with you responding to the survey, per se. My problem is with your deception.

As for your remarks about me getting pegged on the other forum, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I use the same screen name over there as here knowing that a lot of folks frequent both forums. So, unlike you, I'm not trying to deceive anyone.

My purpose for the thread was to point out that D* has come out with a new dvr that is missing two big features of it's older sibling and yet D* is charging the same amount. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see D* charge them for the OTA solution (if they ever actually have one).

DirecTV has spent a lot of time and money on these products and it's quite clear as time moves on that they clearly have not thought things through.

Yes, they are growing, but consider how much more they could have grown if they had let Tivo update the boxes while they stuck to the video side of things!! I can only imagine the amount of time it will take to recover the costs involved in the project. We already know from the investment calls that they are way over budget. Only time will tell if it was worth it.

[Mark Lopez]

What I find laughable about your defense is that you focus on the Leased/owned thing when you clearly know the OP's intention was that he only wanted people to reply to the survey who had more hands-on experience than you can get in a store or at a friends.

It is quite clear that you did not meet the requirements yet you acted as if you had, ....

So you know what the OP intentions were? Nice to know you are a mind reader too. It seemed clear to me that he wanted responses from people who used both enough to make a comparison. And I can guarantee, I had more hands on that some who may have leased one. But again, there is no arguing with someone who makes baseless statements like this:

I view the new dvr as being made for someone familiar with computers while the Tivo interface does not require that knowledge.

Just more FUD from the person who never even used one. How can you 'view' something as anything when you haven't even used it. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. :rolleyes:

Isn't it time for you to go back over to the other forum to ask silly questions you already know the answers to, just to try and stir things up? Of course they are on to your antics over there and waste no time chasing you off. :p

[boneskrw]

RS4, You remind me of the joke about wrestling with pigs in the mud---they don't care about the outcome because they enjoy being in the mud. That's the way most of your posts come across.

If you would actually read my OP, you would see the reason for it. Everything except the blue light is not Nirvana!! But, some of the points you and others pick on are even more non-consequential than the bright blue light. Remember the original purpose of TiVo and other DVR's was to record video and audio!!? TiVo does this very well as do all the others I've seen. They all get the job done with different software and controls. I happen to believe the HD DVR's do a fantastic job of storing and allowing us to view programs at our leisure instead of when they're broadcast. The way the controls work is WAY DOWN THE LIST of important features to me and nearly everyone that owns a DVR.

I originally posted on this board looking for more info on my HR10. Whether my HR10 was TiVo-based or not was of little concern to me. Thanks to those of you that answered my early questions about the HR10. Now, the HR10 is sitting in the bedroom not connected to a satellite, but connected to an old Sony TV so we can watch the movies recently recorded. With the HR20, we have so far, seen no reason to reactivate the HR10. Can't you just leave it at that for me and those that are happy with what we have? I know your answer, based on your past answers to many posts.

[boneskrw]

Cramer, I don't know what remote you got with your TiVo, but mine needed to be aimed at the DVR to make it work. Controlling other components with it also required it be aimed at the device. The RF remote on the HR20, however, works for the DVR wherever it is aimed, even in another room. The IR function works the same as the TiVo remote--needs to be aimed at the device. How can you turn this around to be a negative with the Direct TV HR20?

Also, my comment on liking the 12 hour schedule jump on the HR20 was turned around by you to say the TiVo was better. How was it better? I had to repeatedly skip a few hours at a time with TiVo to get to the next day's shows. With you , even the plus features of the HR20 are negative.

[magnus]

The only demon that you won't be able to shake... is the commitment demon. Sure you got a new box and all seems well but if you decide to leave before that 2 years... then you're screwed.

The funny thing is that when it really comes down it... their content is just not worth the hassle.

[boneskrw]

magnus,
You are right--100%. The other choice is to buy the DVR.

I decided that at zero cost for the HR20, 5LNB dish, installation, and no extra cost for service and/or exchange for two years is a better risk than spending $299 at Best Buy or Circuit City to own my DVR. Owning costs about $13 per month over two years. If the unit fails, it would be at my expense after the manufacturer's warranty. I also weighed the fact that my Hughes HD satellite receiver failed at about one year old and my TiVo HR10 failed at 14 months. Direct TV exchanged boxes for no cost.

Also, odds are, I'm not going to change to Charter Cable or Dish network before two years are up, anyhow.

You may have noticed that cell phone providers, cable TV, Dish Network, and home security companies have a one or two year obligation on most installations.

So, in my mind, that demon is not a worry.

[Sir_winealot]

It is quite clear that you did not meet the requirements yet you acted as if you had, and that's where you lost your integrity because you were purposely misleading us. In fact, you even mention in this thread, that now that you've actually used one, you feel more convinced.





And He Doth Protesteth too much.:p

[milominderbinder]

...I decided that at zero cost for the HR20, 5LNB dish, installation, and no extra cost for service and/or exchange for two years is a better risk than spending $299 at Best Buy or Circuit City to own my DVR...People who buy at Best Buy or Circuit City are leasing as well. There is a big sticker in the box making sure they understand that. The cost to purchase is $749 and is only available through DIRECTV.

Unless you paid the full purchase price of $749, the lease is 24 months with an early cancellation provision at $20 per month. I don't know anyone who paid $749.

In the most recent Quarterly Report, DIRECTV said that their cost of receiver, dish, cabling, switch, and installation is $685.

DIRECTV Q3 2007 Earnings Conference Call Transcript (http://seekingalpha.com/article/53310-directv-q3-2007-earnings-call-transcript?source=feed) and DIRECTV Q3 2007 Earning Report (http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=127160&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1074020&highlight=)

You will also pay $5 per month per HR20/21 for the lease fee.

If you went with TiVo and Cable, you could buy a TiVo for $612.94 (https://www3.tivo.com/store/boxdetails.do?boxName=300hourseries3hd&boxsku=R64825&gift=false&sku=S00010) and agree to only a 1-year TiVo subscription at $12.95 per month PER DVR. You would also pay the Cable company or DIRECTV their monthly DVR and other service fees.

How much will you end up paying for just the TiVo or DIRECTV HR20/21 receiver?

That answer depends on how long you keep the receiver.

Look at what your out of pocket (beyond your channel package) expenses would be. This example assumes that you did not know how to get discounts (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=839938#post839938) and paid full price to DIRECTV ($299).

3 MONTHS
TiVo - $612.94 (initial)+ 3 x $12.95 (monthly subscription) + 9 x $12.95 (early termination) = $768.34
HR20/21 - $299 (initial) + 3 x $5 (monthly lease) + 21 x $20 (early termination)= $734.

6 MONTHS
TiVo - $612.94 (initial)+ 6 x $12.95 (monthly subscription) + 6 x $12.95 (early termination) = $768.34
HR20/21 - $299 (initial) + 6 x $5 (monthly lease) + 18 x $20 (early termination)= $689.

12 MONTHS
TiVo - $612.94 (initial) + $129 (12 month subscription) = $728.99
HR20/21 - $299 (initial) + 12 x $5 (monthly lease) + 12 x $20 (early termination)= $599.

18 MONTHS
TiVo - $612.94 (initial) + $129 (12-month subscription) + 6 x $12.95 (monthly fee) = $806.69
HR20/21 - $299 (initial) + 18 x $5 (monthly lease) + 6 x $20 (early termination)= $509.

24 MONTHS
TiVo - $612.94 (initial)+ $249 (24-month subscription) = $848.99
HR20/21 - $299 (initial) + 24 x $5 (monthly lease) = $419.

36 MONTHS
TiVo - $612.94 (initial)+ $299 (36-month subscription) = $898.99
HR20/21 - $299 (initial) + 36 x $5 (monthly lease) = $479.

Whether you end up keeping your new HD DVR 3, 6, 12, 18, 24, or 36 months, the DIRECTV HR20/21 lease is cheaper than purchasing the HD TiVo.

- Craig

[cramer]

Cramer, I don't know what remote you got with your TiVo, but mine needed to be aimed at the DVR to make it work.
I've used every remote Tivo has made from the original S1 peanut to the Glow remote. They all worked perfectly. The DTV IR remote has to be aimed directly at the receiver to be recognized. No other remote in the house has ever been that selective -- the TV's remote works better than that. My point still stands... an RF remote is better; with the DTV receivers, it's almost a neccessity. (For the record, my S3 continued to see the glow remote even with the TV's remote blinding it -- stuff was stacked on top of it.)

Also, my comment on liking the 12 hour schedule jump on the HR20 was turned around by you to say the TiVo was better. How was it better?With the tivo, you can go to any time on any channel from the guide. (Press INFO.) You can see any peice of guide data the system has. The DTV receiver will only show you current and future information. Additionally, the Tivo "list mode" guide presents more information faster than the grid on either system. Maybe it's just me, but on all the DTV receivers I've seen, the further into the future you browse, the slower the UI gets. It's like it's showing information from the live system stream instead of it's hard drive. Also, notice how the DTV receivers will not move forward until it's displayed everything. The tivo guide is not sync'd like that... it will scroll as fast as you click.

12hr advance is nice, but moving around within a 12hr window is still a slow pain in the ass. Someone pointed out "menu->data and time..." which is close to the tivo, but it still won't let you see into the past.

[milominderbinder]

...With the tivo, you can go to any time on any channel from the guide. (Press INFO.) You can see any peice of guide data the system has. The DTV receiver will only show you current and future information. Press Menu > Date & Time on the HR20/21.Additionally, the Tivo "list mode" guide presents more information faster than the grid on either system.On the HR20, highlight the channel number and press INFO.Maybe it's just me, but on all the DTV receivers I've seen, the further into the future you browse, the slower the UI gets.That is a DIRECTiVo issue, not an issue with the HR20/21.

- Craig

[RS4]

People who buy at Best Buy or Circuit City are leasing as well. There is a big sticker in the box making sure they understand that. The cost to purchase is $749 and is only available through DIRECTV.

Unless you paid the full purchase price of $749, the lease is 24 months with an early cancellation provision at $20 per month. I don't know anyone who paid $749.

In the most recent Quarterly Report, DIRECTV said that their cost of receiver, dish, cabling, switch, and installation is $685.

DIRECTV Q3 2007 Earnings Conference Call Transcript (http://seekingalpha.com/article/53310-directv-q3-2007-earnings-call-transcript?source=feed) and DIRECTV Q3 2007 Earning Report (http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=127160&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1074020&highlight=)

You will also pay $5 per month per HR20/21 for the lease fee.

If you went with TiVo and Cable, you could buy a TiVo for $612.94 (https://www3.tivo.com/store/boxdetails.do?boxName=300hourseries3hd&boxsku=R64825&gift=false&sku=S00010) and agree to only a 1-year TiVo subscription at $12.95 per month PER DVR. You would also pay the Cable company or DIRECTV their monthly DVR and other service fees.

How much will you end up paying for just the TiVo or DIRECTV HR20/21 receiver?

That answer depends on how long you keep the receiver.

Look at what your out of pocket (beyond your channel package) expenses would be. This example assumes that you did not know how to get discounts (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=839938#post839938) and paid full price to DIRECTV ($299).

3 MONTHS
TiVo - $612.94 (initial)+ 3 x $12.95 (monthly subscription) + 9 x $12.95 (early termination) = $768.34
HR20/21 - $299 (initial) + 3 x $5 (monthly lease) + 21 x $20 (early termination)= $734.

6 MONTHS
TiVo - $612.94 (initial)+ 6 x $12.95 (monthly subscription) + 6 x $12.95 (early termination) = $768.34
HR20/21 - $299 (initial) + 6 x $5 (monthly lease) + 18 x $20 (early termination)= $689.

12 MONTHS
TiVo - $612.94 (initial) + $129 (12 month subscription) = $728.99
HR20/21 - $299 (initial) + 12 x $5 (monthly lease) + 12 x $20 (early termination)= $599.

18 MONTHS
TiVo - $612.94 (initial) + $129 (12-month subscription) + 6 x $12.95 (monthly fee) = $806.69
HR20/21 - $299 (initial) + 18 x $5 (monthly lease) + 6 x $20 (early termination)= $509.

24 MONTHS
TiVo - $612.94 (initial)+ $249 (24-month subscription) = $848.99
HR20/21 - $299 (initial) + 24 x $5 (monthly lease) = $419.

36 MONTHS
TiVo - $612.94 (initial)+ $299 (36-month subscription) = $898.99
HR20/21 - $299 (initial) + 36 x $5 (monthly lease) = $479.

Whether you end up keeping your new HD DVR 3, 6, 12, 18, 24, or 36 months, the DIRECTV HR20/21 lease is cheaper than purchasing the HD TiVo.

- Craig

Once again, your analysis and conclusions are very flawed for at least 2 reasons: the Tivo HD is $299 list price and you didn't consider any residual value for the Tivo HD - since it is an owned box. So, subtracting 300 - 350 off of most of those shows Tivo to be at the same level or cheaper then D*. Then too, add in the longer-year discounts for Tivo and there are additional discounts.

[ebonovic]

Once again, your analysis and conclusions are very flawed for at least 2 reasons: the Tivo HD is $299 list price and you didn't consider any residual value for the Tivo HD - since it is an owned box. So, subtracting 300 - 350 off of most of those shows Tivo to be at the same level or cheaper then D*. Then too, add in the longer-year discounts for Tivo and there are additional discounts.

In this particular post....

Craig account for the similar systems... since the $299 TiVo HD, does have the same recording space and some of the other features... that make it more different from the HR20... as to the TiVo Series 3.

As for "residual value", that is hard to predict... as today it can be one thing.... 6 months from now, it could be completely something else.

You can't blindly subtract 300-350 off the top for an unknown factor.
Those HR10-250's that were once $1,000.... they don't sell for $500 (half), I was lucky to get $50 and other are in the $100 range.... so owning a system doesn't necessary guarantee it's long term value.

What if that Switched Video module, doesn't come out as expected or is lengthly delayed... the value of the Tivo boxes could be drastically affected...
What if TiVo is purchased by someone....

As noted in the other thread...

There are many different variations that you as a consumer can apply to the comparison. (3 year pre-pay on TiVo service, you may have lifetime, ect...)

[milominderbinder]

Once again, your analysis and conclusions are very flawed for at least 2 reasons: the Tivo HD is $299 list price and you didn't consider any residual value for the Tivo HD - since it is an owned box. So, subtracting 300 - 350 off of most of those shows Tivo to be at the same level or cheaper then D*. Then too, add in the longer-year discounts for Tivo and there are additional discounts.I posted this in another thread:

OK, let's run the numbers again with the 20-hour HD TiVo... (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5819512#post5819512)

Really the bottom line is this. We have known of the DIRECTV - TiVo breakup since 2/10/06 (http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/apr2006/tc20060413_742910.htm?chan=technology_technology+index+page_ more+of+today's+top+stories). DIRECTV has since bought ReplayTV (http://www.tvpredictions.com/dreplay121307.htm) instead.

Some people feel that TiVo offers the best value and they vote with their dollars to support TiVo. Note: If you use DIRECTiVo's, only 83 cents goes to support TiVo.

Others feel that DIRECTV offers the best value and vote with their dollars for DIRECTV.

Ronald and I chose to send our dollars each month to DIRECTV.

What each person does is their own decision. Consider the economics, user interface, features, and HD channels. Weigh it out and see what is the best value for you.

If you are unhappy with your current choice, don't talk about it. Fix it. Don't hold a PETA rally in a leather coat.

If you can afford satellite or cable, HD, and internet, you can afford to go with the company that you want.

Life is to short to make yourself unhappy.

- Craig

[Scott D]

You guys have gotten completely away from the point of my original post. I DON'T CARE about the nitpicking items you bring up. If there is a conflict, either the HR10 or HR20 can handle it with a semi-intelligent user. The HR20 picture quality, intuitive operation, ease of setting season passes, program grid, connectivity, ability to add an external hard drive without having Joe Hacker format it, and everything else I've seen after having the HR20 in place of my HR10 are all pluses. Don't you naysayers ever give up?

I would be interested to see what you have to say about Microsoft Windows XP and Vista. Some things are bigger than your nitpicky wishes!! People much wiser than any of us on this board understand this and do things with software instead of criticizing the quirks all of it has.

Understood and point taken.....


What I sent you via PM is also valid. What I mean is, if you are to add a function to the unit, it had better be useful. Some of those items I can live with, but most of them is downright ridiculous. Those features should never have been put in there at all. They're flat out stupid with no thought that went into it.

I don't care whether you use all the features or not. What's in there needs to work better than what they are. It's not how I feel about it, it's the way it should be. You may never have any intentions of using a certain feature but I use it all the time. Look at it the other way. What if you used that feature and nobody else did. Would you want that feature to be useful to you? If it wasn't would you want it removed?

[cramer]

That is a DIRECTiVo issue, not an issue with the HR20/21.Negative. The guide speed of DTivo's is (near) constant. It doesn't matter if you are looking at yesturday's listings or next week's. The DTV receivers get progressively slower the further into the future you scroll. Do I need to set a video camera in front of my TV to prove it to you?

(That may be true for a tivo in grid guide, but the grid guide is too f'ing slow to begin with, so I never use it.)

[shibby191]

Negative. The guide speed of DTivo's is (near) constant. It doesn't matter if you are looking at yesturday's listings or next week's. The DTV receivers get progressively slower the further into the future you scroll. Do I need to set a video camera in front of my TV to prove it to you?

(That may be true for a tivo in grid guide, but the grid guide is too f'ing slow to begin with, so I never use it.)

Never seen this on my HR20 which I've had for 16 months now. Can go all the way to the end of the guide (use Green button to do 12 hour jumps as a shortcut) or to the end of a single channel using "Info" and there is no slow down at all. Hate it or love it the one thing the HR20 isn't is slow. It's blazing fast at everything it does. If yours is slow then I'd say there is something wrong with it and perhaps get it replaced.

[RS4]

I posted this in another thread:

OK, let's run the numbers again with the 20-hour HD TiVo... (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5819512#post5819512)

Really the bottom line is this. We have known of the DIRECTV - TiVo breakup since 2/10/06 (http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/apr2006/tc20060413_742910.htm?chan=technology_technology+index+page_ more+of+today's+top+stories). DIRECTV has since bought ReplayTV (http://www.tvpredictions.com/dreplay121307.htm) instead.

Some people feel that TiVo offers the best value and they vote with their dollars to support TiVo. Note: If you use DIRECTiVo's, only 83 cents goes to support TiVo.

Others feel that DIRECTV offers the best value and vote with their dollars for DIRECTV.

Ronald and I chose to send our dollars each month to DIRECTV.

What each person does is their own decision. Consider the economics, user interface, features, and HD channels. Weigh it out and see what is the best value for you.

If you are unhappy with your current choice, don't talk about it. Fix it. Don't hold a PETA rally in a leather coat.

If you can afford satellite or cable, HD, and internet, you can afford to go with the company that you want.

Life is to short to make yourself unhappy.

- Craig

I really get a kick out of you, Craig. I know you say you have nothing to do with D*, but you are the best outside salesman I've ever seen:D Plus, I really laughed out loud at your comment about the divorce and visiting rights - very funny!!

Once again, the flaw you have with your new comparison is that you are now giving a discount to D* for a new customer but not giving any credit one might get from cable for a triple play or something else - apple to oranges.
I really don't care what the numbers say or how they come out - I just want them to be an honest comparison. Leave your bias out for a change.;)

[milominderbinder]

...Some people feel that TiVo offers the best value and they vote with their dollars to support TiVo. Note: If you use DIRECTiVo's, only 83 cents goes to support TiVo.

Others feel that DIRECTV offers the best value and vote with their dollars for DIRECTV.

Ronald and I chose to send our dollars each month to DIRECTV.

What each person does is their own decision. Consider the economics, user interface, features, and HD channels. Weigh it out and see what is the best value for you.

If you are unhappy with your current choice, don't talk about it. Fix it. Don't hold a PETA rally in a leather coat.

If you can afford satellite or cable, HD, and internet, you can afford to go with the company that you want.

Life is to short to make yourself unhappy.

- Craig...I really don't care what the numbers say or how they come out - I just want them to be an honest comparison. Leave your bias out for a change.;)Ronald,

I don't think that there is a generic comparison. DIRECTV's offer changes with each CSR. We tell people to just keep calling. If you know the trick to say Cancel at the prompt you will often get a far better answer. It is the same for TWC, Comcast, and the others. All companies' offers also vary varies wildly by geography.

Since they all use credit scoring to determine discounts, all you can do is keep calling to get "your" best offer in "your" area. Consider the economics, user interface, features, and HD channels. Weigh it out and see what is the best value for you. Support the company that offers you the best value.

Ronald, you and I vote with our dollars to support DIRECTV. We respect others who support TiVo instead.

- Craig

[RS4]

Ronald,

I don't think that there is a generic comparison. DIRECTV's offer changes with each CSR. We tell people to just keep calling. If you know the trick to say Cancel at the prompt you will often get a far better answer. It is the same for TWC, Comcast, and the others. All companies' offers also vary varies wildly by geography.

Since they all use credit scoring to determine discounts, all you can do is keep calling to get "your" best offer in "your" area. Consider the economics, user interface, features, and HD channels. Weigh it out and see what is the best value for you. Support the company that offers you the best value.

Ronald, you and I vote with our dollars to support DIRECTV. We respect others who support TiVo instead.

- Craig

Well, the second comparison is still misleading. Here we are on a Tivo forum and sub forum devoted to HD DTivo, so most of the folks on here will be existing D* clients. Why would you now decide to throw in a $240 discount as if they were new?

[milominderbinder]

Well, the second comparison is still misleading. Here we are on a Tivo forum and sub forum devoted to HD DTivo, so most of the folks on here will be existing D* clients. Why would you now decide to throw in a $240 discount as if they were new?Agreed.

Each person will get their own quote based on their own history, credit score, area, and the luck of the CSR draw.

Many existing customers are getting the new customer discount plus the $100 off instant rebate just by asking. But unless you are a good negotiator or know about the forums you would not know to ask for the rebates or discounts.

The first comparison is a more pure comparison of MSRP of the HR20 compared to the TiVo that is closest in capacity. It assumes no discounts and just takes the price straight from each website. There is no TiVo that has 50 hours of HD storage or any cable system that has as many full-time national channels so you take the closest competitor.

But that is just a generic price. Each person needs to consider what is most important to them:

• Is TiVo's 34% reduced recording capacity an issue?
• Are the number of national, full-time HD channels important?
• Regardless of number, do they offer the HD channels you want?
• Are there certain features that one or the other has that you really need?
• What are "your" best deals in "your" area?

Beyond all of that, this still comes down to subjective issues as well. Do you just like a certain product better? Do you like a certain provider better?

The bottom line is emotional. People will vote with their dollars each month for the company that they feel provides them the best value.

Ronald, you and I choose to support DIRECTV each month. We respect those who choose TiVo as the best value instead.

- Craig

[RS4]

Agreed.

Each person will get their own quote based on their own history, credit score, area, and the luck of the CSR draw.

Many existing customers are getting the new customer discount plus the $100 off instant rebate just by asking. But unless you are a good negotiator or know about the forums you would not know to ask for the rebates or discounts.

The first comparison is a more pure comparison of MSRP of the HR20 compared to the TiVo that is closest in capacity. It assumes no discounts and just takes the price straight from each website. There is no TiVo that has 50 hours of HD storage or any cable system that has as many full-time national channels so you take the closest competitor.

But that is just a generic price. Each person needs to consider what is most important to them:

• Is TiVo's 34% reduced recording capacity an issue?
• Are the number of national, full-time HD channels important?
• Regardless of number, do they offer the HD channels you want?
• Are there certain features that one or the other has that you really need?
• What are "your" best deals in "your" area?

Beyond all of that, this still comes down to subjective issues as well. Do you just like a certain product better? Do you like a certain provider better?

The bottom line is emotional. People will vote with their dollars each month for the company that they feel provides them the best value.

Ronald, you and I choose to support DIRECTV each month. We respect those who choose TiVo as the best value instead.

- Craig
A fine marketing presentation - must make the folks proud:D:D

[milominderbinder]

A fine marketing presentation - must make the folks proud:D:D
Ronald...

you are...

my father...

- Craig

[RS4]

Ronald...

you are...

my father...

- Craig

Ah, no wonder those are such fine presentations.:)