Does TTG watermark the video?

[qz3fwd]

I understand that TTG/Tivo Box will encrypt, unencrypted source material (OTA recordings) when transferring to a PC. Does this include video/audio watermarking? Has anyone compared identical frames from the Tivo and a recording which does not molest the transport stream like tivo's encryption shackles?

Is the tivo encryption process documented or explained anywhere?

I am curious as to why in gods name, they are encrypting OTA unencrypted material as it is placing a burden on the Tivo and SLOWING down the transfer process, which are slow enough as it is.

Thanks

[greg_burns]

I am curious as to why in gods name, they are encrypting OTA unencrypted material as it is placing a burden on the Tivo and SLOWING down the transfer process, which are slow enough as it is.

Thanks

I will probably be shown to be wrong. But IIRC, the video is encrypted when it is recorded. It is the muxing of the audio/video into MPEG-2 format that is the slow part.

It would be cool if you could transfer the original .ty(?) files from the Tivo and then do the muxing on our PCs.

[greg_burns]

BTW, I've never read anything definite as to whether the files are actually watermarked or not.

[ZeoTiVo]

I will probably be shown to be wrong. But IIRC, the video is encrypted when it is recorded. It is the muxing of the audio/video into MPEG-2 format that is the slow part.

It would be cool if you could transfer the original .ty(?) files from the Tivo and then do the muxing on our PCs.

you are correct in all that you say above. Encryption has little to do with slow speed of TTG. I agree as well it would be so much faster to do the muxing on the PC but TiVo controls the DVR so most likely felt there was less chance for unforseen errors if they muxed on the DVR.

PS - I have never definitively seen a confirmatioon of the watermarking either but assume it since TiVo does convert to open formats now.

[Laserfan]

I was surprised to find today that my TTG of a CBS program has an odd "tattoo" in the top left corner. Noticed it when editing-out commercials with VideoReDo. It certainly was NOT in the original program and I've never seen anything like this before; might it be a watermark?

This particular show (Hallmark Hall of Fame "Pictures of Hollis Woods") does not have any other logos on it i.e. it doesn't carry the usual CBS HD logo lower-right.

I can't imagine how this could have been done--if it is a watermark and all the networks start using it, it might signal the end of hobbyist recordings, particularly if they can expand it to cover the entire picture! :eek:

[qz3fwd]

Sounds like a local bug in place or in addition to the network bug CBS usually broadcasts.

Watermarks are not supposed to be visible and if you saw it during live broadcast, it must have been coming from CBS (regional or local) and not from the Tivo. I wouldnt think the Tivo has enough HP to receive, decode, re-encode with unique watermark, decode again, and display?

If it was Tivo, then that is a very bad sign of things to come. Do they really expect customers to pay them to molest the PQ with their watermark?

[greg_burns]

It certainly was NOT in the original program and I've never seen anything like this before; might it be a watermark?

And you are sure you can see that portion of the video when viewing on your TV? It may be in the overscan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overscan) area. Now why they (the broadcaster, not Tivo) are doing that who knows?

[gonzotek]

I was surprised to find today that my TTG of a CBS program has an odd "tattoo" in the top left corner. Noticed it when editing-out commercials with VideoReDo. It certainly was NOT in the original program and I've never seen anything like this before; might it be a watermark?

This particular show (Hallmark Hall of Fame "Pictures of Hollis Woods") does not have any other logos on it i.e. it doesn't carry the usual CBS HD logo lower-right.

I can't imagine how this could have been done--if it is a watermark and all the networks start using it, it might signal the end of hobbyist recordings, particularly if they can expand it to cover the entire picture! :eek:
Can you post a screenshot of the anomaly?

[greg_burns]

The first thing that came to my mind was the watermarks some codecs use when they expire. But he mentioned using VideoRedo... :confused:

[classicsat]

As policy, the TiVo encrypts everything to record to its HDD, and for transfers, to protect the copyrights of the networks and studios. Even if the program is OTA, it is still probably copyrighted.

[Laserfan]

Here are some pics. Note:

1. I did NOT notice it during the broadcast. I have a 60" 16:9 HDTV and am sensitive to anomalies so I'm quite certain it was not visible at any time

2. Clearly not in "overscan" area, nothing to do w/VBI

3. I first noticed it in VRD+ editing screen (where it appears behind the I, B, or P frame display). There it looked like a "patch" of some sort, like a piece of scotch tape!! :confused:

The first pic is a full frame from the beginning of the show (look upper left). The second is a closeup. I don't know if "watermark" is way off-base, if maybe VRD is at fault, or what, but when I saw it that's the first thing I thought of, and after some Googling decided CBS just MIGHT be experimenting with it? I dunno...wish I had the original--I'd look at it on the Tivo and transfer again, but it's completely gone from the Tivo already. :(

EDIT: Looking at this thing w/Avisynth/VirtualDubMod and the damndest thing: the top ~3 rows of dots are white in every Top Field, and these disappear in favor of a lower ~2 rows of green dots in everyBottom Field displayed. The Closeup.jpg pic is clearly a composite of both Top-and-Bottom fields, so you can (barely) see both at once. I think I'm gonna wear tin foil on my head for a few days! ;)

[Laserfan]

I can see now too that if I attempt to save this program as a progressive Xvid file, that this anomaly will indeed "flash" off & on (the white part) which would surely cause me the jitters on playback.

If this is indeed a watermark that is a deliberate attempt to thwart copying, I would have to say it is effective, though of course it would be MORE effective if it were in say the center of the screen.

If it's not a deliberate anti-copy measure then it probably should be! Shhh, don't tell anyone!!! :eek:

[wmcbrine]

2. Clearly not in "overscan" areaThat's not clear at all. In fact, unless you've cropped the image you posted, it clearly is in the overscan area. Overscan is freaking huge on many sets; don't underestimate it.

To me it just looks like a mistake.

[Laserfan]

it clearly is in the overscan area.Not on my set! Still, I see that I can easily save the recording by cropping the glitch out... :o

[greg_burns]

So if you transfer back to your Tivo can you still see it? (That would be the answer to the overscan question.)

[Laserfan]

Yeah, it's still there.

I'm willing to accept that it could be some glitch in the transfer, but if it's not... :down: