Direct TV Eliminating MPEG2 HD Channels Early 2008

[boneskrw]

Called Direct TV for upgrade from HR10 to HR20 today. They won't budge off the $299 price. Now I wish I would have made the change in October when price was at $99. If not for the negative comments on the HR20 on this board, that's what I would have done. The CSR said the existing MPEG2 HD channels will begin disappearing in January or February. Then, OTA will be my only HD source.

Now, it's obvious that the HR10 has become a dinosaur. Prices of HR10's on eBay are about to drop to nothing. The HR20 is the ONLY way to receive the new HD channels. The HR20 will accept an external hard drive by just plugging it in--no hacking!! The HR20 will output HDMI, component, and composite all at the same time to allow more than one TV hookup. Several have commented that picture quality on the HR20 is better than the HR10. The only functional loss with HR20 vs. HR10 is no dual buffer, so you can't switch from one channel to another and review what was recorded.

Now, I'll have to wait a few months until Direct TV offers a better deal than $299.

[minorthr]

I've had them offer me one at $199, but thats still to much.

[poppagene]

If you have the protection plan on your account and additionally if an HR10-250 on your account breaks (like those on 6.3e that keep rebooting), then DirecTV will replace the broken HR10-250 with a (probably refurbished) HR20 or HR21.

[channelserf]

There are several people who are getting a 5 LNB dish & HR20/21 upgrade free. I got the call last week to replace my HR10 (no 2 year reset either! That's what they said...). I doubt MPEG 2 is going away in the next few months. if you haven't got the free upgrade offer I'd hold out a little while longer.

[newsposter]

I've had them offer me one at $199, but thats still to much.

Hey if 'i' can get it free, you can too! Plus dealing with certain other companies, no names mentioned, has given you lots of practice in dealing with csrs

wait a few days then call back and be sweet and say a year ago you were told you could get a free upgrade because you paid so much for your hdtivo. Just talk slow and sorta stupid and like aww maaan. Worked for me.

[bigpuma]

DirecTV has started calling people and giving them a free upgrade from an HR10 to HR20. My guess is they are staggering these calls so that by the time they start eliminating the current MPeg-2 HD channels everyone with an HR10 will get the opportunity to upgrade for free. Unless you are wanting to upgrade now to see the channels you can't get with the HR10 I would just wait a little longer and see what they are offering in January or February.

I just got a second free HR20 because they called me and offered it. I am guessing this was a mistake since I already got a free upgrade in October of 2006 but I am not complaining. :)

[adlerx]

I didn't have HD at all but wanted to upgrade, they were pretty tough on the $299 and finally came down to $199. I passed! I called back a couple more times over the next week and finally talked some CSR into into $99 for a new hr21 installed with the new gear. Kept my Tivo D* DVR and just toggle em for now so I can do the double buffer thing when not watching HD (there aren't many HD channels) I also picked up a hr10 off ebay that should be here any day that I'll replace the old r10 with so I can keep my tivo mpeg2 until the channels are gone. Just ordered a remote HDMI multi switch to make toggeling easier and actually give me triple beffuer capabilities.

[JimSpence]

... The CSR said the existing MPEG2 HD channels will begin disappearing in January or February. Then, OTA will be my only HD source...If this is true and it includes the HD network DNS channels, I'll be pissed. Why? Because I don't receive all networks OTA and they aren't available from DirecTV. I'm sure there are many subscribers in my situation. Therefore, I doubt the CSR in this case. It's just a case if them trying to get people to make the switch.

[newsposter]

Just ordered a remote HDMI multi switch to make toggeling easier and actually give me triple beffuer capabilities.

be careful what you get. I got the one from jr.com (sima i think) and i have troubles sometime and need to unplug my tv to get things to work right. its definitely hr20 related but very rare...gets purple screen and is weird.

[Cudahy]

In the year I've been following the HDtivo story here CSR's have been quoted as saying all kinds of things that aren't true.
The credible range of dropping the mpeg2 HD channels ranges from middle 08 to middle 09. The last story I read said that at least half a million Directv HD customers will only be able to get mpeg2 by the end of next year so 09 seems more reasonable.

[rmassey]

I wonder if HR10-250 subs will be required to carry an HD package once no more mpg2 HD is available. Wouldn't this be just another classic D* 'policy'

[scottjf8]

The CSR said the existing MPEG2 HD channels will begin disappearing in January or February.

A CSR gave me the lottery numbers the other day but I'm still broke.

Seriously, let's not jump the gun until D* officially releases a statement

[bigpuma]

A CSR gave me the lottery numbers the other day but I'm still broke.

Seriously, let's not jump the gun until D* officially releases a statement

I agree completely, but Earl has also stated that DirecTV will start to remove Mpeg-2 HD channels sooner rather than later. He has been pretty acurate in the past. Also DirecTV has said that this will be the last season of NFLST in HD in Mpeg-2 so I wouldn't be surprised if all of the Mpeg-2 HD channels were gone by September of next year.

[jaypb]

A CSR gave me the lottery numbers the other day but I'm still broke.

Seriously, let's not jump the gun until D* officially releases a statement

See my post here :

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5757571#post5757571

I'm sure that SOMETHING was said to SOMEONE about SOMETHING going on in January/February WRT HD signals or reception....but, alas, like the lovely game of telephone that has existed for years and years and years....the gist of the real answer just seems to get lost in all the details.......:rolleyes:

[Tivo_60]

Will an unactivated hr10 be able to receive and record OTA channels ? If so, that would be the only reason I could see for keeping it once the mpeg2 hd's are gone.

[ebonovic]

Will an unactivated hr10 be able to receive and record OTA channels ? If so, that would be the only reason I could see for keeping it once the mpeg2 hd's are gone.

No it will not.

It will have to be activated... or there are no DVR functions, or guide data to the unit

[slydog75]

Will an unactivated hr10 be able to receive and record OTA channels ? If so, that would be the only reason I could see for keeping it once the mpeg2 hd's are gone.

No, you'd have to keep it activated.

[bigpuma]

Will an unactivated hr10 be able to receive and record OTA channels ? If so, that would be the only reason I could see for keeping it once the mpeg2 hd's are gone.

I kept my HR10 for recording SD in my bedroom since it has a 250GB HDD vs. the 80GB HDD in my R10.

[RS4]

Will an unactivated hr10 be able to receive and record OTA channels ? If so, that would be the only reason I could see for keeping it once the mpeg2 hd's are gone.

No, you need an activated HR10-250 to record the OTA channels.

[appleye1]

DirecTV has started calling people and giving them a free upgrade from an HR10 to HR20. My guess is they are staggering these calls so that by the time they start eliminating the current MPeg-2 HD channels everyone with an HR10 will get the opportunity to upgrade for free. Unless you are wanting to upgrade now to see the channels you can't get with the HR10 I would just wait a little longer and see what they are offering in January or February.

I just got a second free HR20 because they called me and offered it. I am guessing this was a mistake since I already got a free upgrade in October of 2006 but I am not complaining. :)Considering the fact that I never answer telemarketing calls from anybody they better be planning on sending me something US Mail if they want to switch me over. (If they leave a message on my voice mail I might call them back though, but I doubt they'll do that.)

Personally I'm in no hurry to switch over anyway. Most of the HD I watch right now is OTA, and I want to see how the whole thing shakes out before I do anything. Of course I don't want to miss any freebie offers either so I guess I have to keep an eye on what they're doing in that regard.

[boneskrw]

The good new is: After deciding to give up for now on the $299 upgrade to HR20, I looked at my email and they said since I was a customer since 1993, I qualify for a NO COST update. The email stated this offer is only for me, not my friends and relatives.

Yes, in the earlier phone call, I asked the CSR when the MPEG2 channels would start being eliminated. She didn't know, but checked with her supervisor, who gave the January-February date. I didn't say in my posting above this is a sure thing. I just said that is what the CSR stated. Some of you are a little jumpy over this issue, too--kind of like TIVO vs. HR20. I personally think Direct TV has been and is being very fair in their dealings with customers. That's why they're one of the top-rated companies by J.D. Powers.

[Rinkdog]

The quickest easiest way to get one free is tell them your hr 10 crashed, locked up whatever and you absolutely are not paying to replace it you will switch companies first. You should get the just pay for shipping deal without a problem. I have never had any service plan and I received a replacement tivo in the past and a hr 20 for shipping. I don't talk rudely, I just calmly tell them the facts, the most important one is I'm not paying for a new receiver to replace the one I already have to watch your service. I will go elsewhere if I have to.

[Mark Lopez]

Kept my Tivo D* DVR and just toggle em for now so I can do the double buffer thing when not watching HD (there aren't many HD channels)

:confused: I thought the main reason people were whining about DLB was for sports. And since most want to watch sports in HD, I don't understand the reason for making a big deal over DLB for SD. You do realize you have a DVR that is designed to record things, no?

As for the OT, I do believe the MPEG2 HD channels will be gone soon.

[HiDefGator]

Since I'm bored...

Any thoughts on will the mpeg2 HD disappear one channel at a time or all at once? Will the DNS channels be the first to go or the last?

[slydog75]

Personally I'm in no hurry to switch over anyway. Most of the HD I watch right now is OTA, and I want to see how the whole thing shakes out before I do anything.

What exactly are you wanting to 'shake out' first?

[tfederov]

Since I'm bored...

Any thoughts on will the mpeg2 HD disappear one channel at a time or all at once? Will the DNS channels be the first to go or the last?

I'd lean toward them all going away at once. Pulling the plug at once will most likely reduce the amount of time folks call in saying channels are missing (for example, there may be a few weeks worth of calls from customers if they're all gone vs. a few months as channels disappear).

[Mark Lopez]

I'd lean toward them all going away at once. Pulling the plug at once will most likely reduce the amount of time folks call in saying channels are missing (for example, there may be a few weeks worth of calls from customers if they're all gone vs. a few months as channels disappear).

I agree. But I also think they will send out notices 30-60 before before like they did with the HD DNS national feeds when they had to cut one or the other off.

[parzec]

Will an unactivated hr10 be able to receive and record OTA channels ? If so, that would be the only reason I could see for keeping it once the mpeg2 hd's are gone.

It is always good for 30 minute dual buffer and with the Satellite dish it gets full guide data WITHOUT any subscription. There is also an undocumented feature that allows limited OTA recording if you boot with an old access card, then unplug the sat cables and insert your most recent access card. (Use Search for more details) I use two in my mountain house in this way. Works out fine for weekend trips where I really don't care about full Tivo functionality.

Also, the good news is that the elimination of MPEG2 Hi-Def channels would trigger an implied escape clause from your DirecTV contract as it is certainly a material change in the programming that DirecTV provides, directly effecting the purpose for which your HR10-250 was purchased. Just don't add any new HR20's to your account, or you will reset your contract and forego escaping from DirecTV's contract.

[JimSpence]

If they pull the plug on the DNS HD before they offer my local HD, they better offer the DNS in MPEG4.

[tfederov]

I agree. But I also think they will send out notices 30-60 before before like they did with the HD DNS national feeds when they had to cut one or the other off.

Hmmm... that's interesting. I'm still getting those from long ago (not that I need them anymore). Forgot that they were turning them off.

[cramer]

Will an unactivated hr10 be able to receive and record OTA channels?Receive: Yes. Record: No.

or there are no DVR functions, or guide data to the unitUnsubscribed units continue to receive Guide Data, but without a subscription, it won't know what local stations you receive. I have an HDVR2 that's no longer subscribed and it's full of guide data; I don't recall if it remembers the locals. I don't know how the HR10's OTA guide data will fair as I only have one HR10 and it's subscribed... however, it can be told to add locals DTV doesn't think I can see (i.e. neighboring DMAs)

[Mark Lopez]

If they pull the plug on the DNS HD before they offer my local HD, they better offer the DNS in MPEG4.

I'm not sure there will be a need for DNS any more. With the MPEG4 spot beams, everyone will fall into some 'local' area. Even if it is not your particular city, it would not have been with the East & West coast DNS feeds anyway. So my guess is that you would get the MPEG4 local feed from whatever city is closest that has them.

Not sure how they would handle RV type installs though. Unless they set up some sort of 'roaming' thing where you just get whatever beam you are in.

[incog-neato]

Not gonna happen. CSR doesn't have a clue.If this is true and it includes the HD network DNS channels, I'll be pissed. Why? Because I don't receive all networks OTA and they aren't available from DirecTV. I'm sure there are many subscribers in my situation. Therefore, I doubt the CSR in this case. It's just a case if them trying to get people to make the switch.

[appleye1]

What exactly are you wanting to 'shake out' first?I don't mean "shake out" technically.

I'm just not feeling any pressure yet. There's no "gotta have" for me right now in the HD channels they have lined up. That will probably change. Some killer show that I just have to have in HD will come along. And when it does my "wait and see" attitude will change too!

[Mark Lopez]

CSR doesn't have a clue.

And you do?

Not gonna happen.

Please share your facts as to why it won't.

[TonyD79]

If they pull the plug on the DNS HD before they offer my local HD, they better offer the DNS in MPEG4.

I am sure they will. Actually, wasn't there a rumor (fact?) that they were in the process of changing the West Coast feeds from MPEG2 to MPEG4 with swapouts of machines?

[Mark Lopez]

I am sure they will. Actually, wasn't there a rumor (fact?) that they were in the process of changing the West Coast feeds from MPEG2 to MPEG4 with swapouts of machines?

It was my understanding that the West coast HD locals were already in MPEG4 for a while, but they recently moved them to another sat which now requires the use of the converter thingy. But that's probably spot beams. Again, I don't really see a need for DNS feeds any more with everyone being close to some city with MPEG4 HD locals.

[incog-neato]

Yes I do. But separate from the fact that I do know, DirecTV stated publicly somewhere they are going to stretch out the switchover time. It was part of some conference or interview somewhere and was posted/quoted by someone else in a recent thread. Unfortunately I am unable to share my specific facts but I can assure you they are more reliable then "a CSR told me." Like "they" say ... believe it .... or not - but MPEG2 (the few HD channels currently available - not things like NFLST, MLB etc) is good at the very least through 2008.

And you do?
Please share your facts as to why it won't.

[JimSpence]

I'm not sure there will be a need for DNS any more. With the MPEG4 spot beams, everyone will fall into some 'local' area. Even if it is not your particular city, it would not have been with the East & West coast DNS feeds anyway. So my guess is that you would get the MPEG4 local feed from whatever city is closest that has them....

I don't really care where I get the HD networks as long as I can get ALL (CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, CW, and PBS) of them. As many will know from my past replies, we don't have all networks via OTA here. So if they provide Syracuse until our DMA is ready is fine with me.

[Mark Lopez]

Yes I do. But separate from the fact that I do know, DirecTV stated publicly somewhere they are going to stretch out the switchover time. It was part of some conference or interview somewhere and was posted/quoted by someone else in a recent thread.

Yeah, those 'facts' are more reliable than any other rumor or a CSR. :rolleyes:

I can't help but recall all of those who swore 6.3 would never get released either, also based on these sort of 'facts'. But yet poof, there it came in just a few months.

[jimb726]

Also, the good news is that the elimination of MPEG2 Hi-Def channels would trigger an implied escape clause from your DirecTV contract as it is certainly a material change in the programming that DirecTV provides, directly effecting the purpose for which your HR10-250 was purchased. Just don't add any new HR20's to your account, or you will reset your contract and forego escaping from DirecTV's contract.

Not so sure about that. They have lots of receivers that over the course of time dont do what the newest recievers do. I think more likely if they didnt offer a replacement you might have an argument, but given that they have a substitute box, that recieves the channels, it would be up to you as to whether or not you change to the newest equipment.

[fasTLane]

DVR giveaways? :o

Many paid 500-1000 bucks for the privilege of the DirecTivo experience and with only a handful of HD content.

Feel the joy. ;) :p

[rickmeoff]

Yeah, those 'facts' are more reliable than any other rumor or a CSR. :rolleyes:





actually, id take the word of someone posting on this forum over something a clueless csr says. but try and keep up; it was posted on this forum as part of a quarterly cc from dtv a while back.

[Mark Lopez]

actually, id take the word of someone posting on this forum over something a clueless csr says. but try and keep up; it was posted on this forum as part of a quarterly cc from dtv a while back.

My point was that things change. What may have been the plan 6 months ago or even 6 weeks ago may not be the plan today. Since the HR20/21 seem to be flying off the shelves, and with reports of installers working around the clock, it would indicate the switch to new receivers may be happening faster than expected. Somewhere the DirecTV bean counters are calculating when the best time (i.e. most cost effective) to pull the plug will be. My guess (based on business logic) is that it will happen sooner than later. And as I mentioned earlier, there have been several instances of DirecTV doing something that was either not expected or sooner than originally planned. I recall before the last big access card swap, many of the people who where supposedly 'in the know' said there was no way DirecTV would/could swap all of the cards in less than a year or two. And yet they did it in just a few months.

[incog-neato]

Tell me why I am supposed to care whether you believe me or not. Yeah, those 'facts' are more reliable than any other rumor or a CSR. :rolleyes:

I can't help but recall all of those who swore 6.3 would never get released either, also based on these sort of 'facts'. But yet poof, there it came in just a few months.

[PrimeRisk]

Now, I'll have to wait a few months until Direct TV offers a better deal than $299.

Many people that currently have active HR10s are still reporting getting free HR2x boxes including installation of the 5LNB dish. One consistent theme that seems to be out there is it makes a big difference who you talk to. I was sent the "we'll upgrade you for free" e-mail and when I called the number I got the runaround. I had to talk to Customer Retention to get the deal straight. My father had the same experience. He called 4 times and got everything from $99 + shipping to the full-price $299, but when he talked to Customer Retention he got the immediate "You have legacy HD equipment and we'll upgrade you right now for free". He even got better than free. He got 12 months of HD access for free too.

If you have an active HR10 and are out of contract call and ask for Customer Retention. Explain that you understand that your hardware needs to be replaced because of the MPEG4 technology and that D* is providing free HR20 boxes to good customers with legacy hardware. Ask if they can help you out.

If you are in contract call and ask for a free replacement of your HR10. If you don't get the deal you want, be polite, say you'll have to think it over, and call back later. You can ask to talk to Customer Retention, but don't do it as an escalation from the CSR. Call back and tell the CSR that you need to talk to Customer Retention about a problem that only they can fix. When you get there ask for the deal based on the MPEG4/HR10 legacy hardware point.

Bottom line: Be polite. The CSRs deal with upset people all day long. If you make it a pleasant experience for them, they are more likely to make it one for you.

[atlynch]

Hi Folks,
Just another data point. I spoke with the CSRs several times over the last two months regarding upgrading my HR10-250. The best they would offer was $100 discount on one HR20/21 and some programming credits. Was not compelling enough for me, and I wanted TiVo anyway, so I switched to Comcast and got a pair of TiVo HD's. When I called DirecTV to cancel, then they offered me an HR20/21 for $20.... Since I wanted two, it was still $320 for 2 leased HR20s and a two year commitment vs $450 for 2 owned TiVo HD's (CC Had them for $250 and I used the 10% AAA coupon) and a 1 year commitment. Programming discounts came out in the wash, and the total monthly fees are similar.

-Drew

[joed32]

I don't really care where I get the HD networks as long as I can get ALL (CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, CW, and PBS) of them. As many will know from my past replies, we don't have all networks via OTA here. So if they provide Syracuse until our DMA is ready is fine with me.

None of us has PBS. They want a carrier to carry all of their channels or none, so both satellite companies chose none.

[PrimeRisk]

None of us has PBS. They want a carrier to carry all of their channels or none, so both satellite companies chose none.

This is one of a few channels I get off of the antenna, so I fought for HR20s. If you need OTA to get the channels you want to watch, make sure you negotiate for the HR20, the HR21 does not have OTA capability.

[Mark Lopez]

Tell me why I am supposed to care whether you believe me or not.

:confused: What's your point? The question is when will DirecTV kill the MPEG2 HD feeds. People (besides me) have given reasons why they think it will happen sooner than later. Those who say it will 'never happen' or be years away have given no reason for their statement other than ' I heard it from someone, somewhere'. I am waiting for someone to give a logical reason why it would take them longer than 3-6 months to do it if they wanted.

[incog-neato]

My point was this: You replied to me directly with "why should you believe me" and my answer was, why should I care? I don't have to qualify myself to you. It's your (or anyones) choice to believe me or not. I don't need to tell you who I am or where I am employed (nor would I if I could). The CURRENT information (and not from a CSR or friend) is that the basic channels will remain at least through 2008. Sure, anything can change. Nothing except death and taxes is for sure in this world. I replied with current information as of last Thursday at 1PM EST. Not even the CEO could be 100% certain of anything, but as of 12/6/07 that was current information. The reasons for their decision, there's probably dozens and some of them are as obvious as your constant trolling of this board.

:confused: What's your point? The question is when will DirecTV kill the MPEG2 HD feeds. People (besides me) have given reasons why they think it will happen sooner than later. Those who say it will 'never happen' or be years away have given no reason for their statement other than ' I heard it from someone, somewhere'. I am waiting for someone to give a logical reason why it would take them longer than 3-6 months to do it if they wanted.

[Mark Lopez]

My point was this: You replied to me directly with "why should you believe me" and my answer was, why should I care? I don't have to qualify myself to you.

:confused: (again). Please point to the post where I said that. Oh wait, I didn't, so how about not making up quotes? All I asked for was some facts to back up your blanket statement of "Not gonna happen" (which is a direct quote).

The reasons for their decision, there's probably dozens .....

But yet you can't name one. Got it. :rolleyes:

...your constant trolling of this board.

Let's see, I've been a member here since 1999 (probably before you even knew what a Tivo was) and you have been here 3 months and are calling me a troll. :p:p:p

[incog-neato]

Let's see, I've been a member here since 1999 (probably before you even knew what a Tivo was) and you have been here 3 months and are calling me a troll. :p:p:p
Don't assume anything. I have been here since 1999 as well. However due to my current position my other username wasn't really wasn't wise to be used here considering who reads this board .... hence the current pseudonym.

(again). All I asked for was some facts to back up your blanket statement of "Not gonna happen" (which is a direct quote).
You are indeed correct and I apologize for misquoting you ... but my original answer applies to your actual quote.

But yet you can't name one. Got it. :rolleyes:
Betcha I can. ;)

[rickmeoff]

Let's see, I've been a member here since 1999 (probably before you even knew what a Tivo was) and you have been here 3 months and are calling me a troll. :p:p:p


zowie, thats a long time to be trolling!:p but seriously, thats impressive (and i dont impress easily).

[RS4]

Many people that currently have active HR10s are still reporting getting free HR2x boxes including installation of the 5LNB dish. One consistent theme that seems to be out there is it makes a big difference who you talk to. I was sent the "we'll upgrade you for free" e-mail and when I called the number I got the runaround. I had to talk to Customer Retention to get the deal straight. My father had the same experience. He called 4 times and got everything from $99 + shipping to the full-price $299, but when he talked to Customer Retention he got the immediate "You have legacy HD equipment and we'll upgrade you right now for free". He even got better than free. He got 12 months of HD access for free too.

If you have an active HR10 and are out of contract call and ask for Customer Retention. Explain that you understand that your hardware needs to be replaced because of the MPEG4 technology and that D* is providing free HR20 boxes to good customers with legacy hardware. Ask if they can help you out.

If you are in contract call and ask for a free replacement of your HR10. If you don't get the deal you want, be polite, say you'll have to think it over, and call back later. You can ask to talk to Customer Retention, but don't do it as an escalation from the CSR. Call back and tell the CSR that you need to talk to Customer Retention about a problem that only they can fix. When you get there ask for the deal based on the MPEG4/HR10 legacy hardware point.

Bottom line: Be polite. The CSRs deal with upset people all day long. If you make it a pleasant experience for them, they are more likely to make it one for you.

I read this long list of things to do and thought about all of the stuff we've read from Craig/Milo and thought to myself 'how much would DirecTV's survey numbers go down if people knew how they were really being treated?'

Here we are dealing with a company where if you say the right things and it's the right day of the week and not raining and....you get the deal, but for the rest of us poor smucks - we get take it or leave it!! And yet people marvel at what a wonderful company DirecTV is:confused:

[newsposter]

is there a technology beyond mpeg4 that we will all be changing to someday?

[boneskrw]

Newsposter,
I think you know the answer to that question. Of course there will be a system beyond MPEG4 someday. Probably sooner than later. MPEG5 or whatever it will be called is inevitable. Don't you think the next step in HD is to store high quality video on computers? No need for DVR, DVD, Direct TV, Comcast, Blockbuster, Netflix, etc. We will download the programs--news, soap operas, sports events, movie or music video to your computer via the internet and wirelessly transmit to your home theater....live or view on demand.

[newsposter]

actually i hope it never comes to that...i dont have my computer on much and would hate to have to keep it on just to watch tv. I'm very computer literate and do build my own but just cant see making it the central point in everything i do. Seems like asking for trouble. When my tivo dies, i still have my computer files! :)

[InterMurph]

I'm on the phone now with a CSR who just told me that my HD TiVo can receive all of the HD channels they have, and that I don't need to upgrade. I questioned the accuracy of that statement, and he is now checking with a supervisor...

Update: 1st offer: $100 discount, total cost to me: $199.00. I told him that I have been a 10-year subscriber to the Premiere package, and that I would like to have a free upgrade with free installation. He said, "you have made some excellent points, please hold...

Update #2: 2nd offer: same as the first. I told them that if that's the case, I should probably just get Comcast. That triggered a "let me get you to someone who can help you, and I'm glad you asked."

Update #3: I'm on the phone with Patty in retention, who looked up my extensive history with DirecTV. She offered me a free HR20-700, free installation, and 1 year of free HD service. The only charge is a $20 shipping charge. I accepted. Now I'll have to see how I can wrangle the installer into installing the HR20 next to my HR10, instead of replacing it.

[emania]

Newsposter,
I think you know the answer to that question. Of course there will be a system beyond MPEG4 someday. Probably sooner than later. MPEG5 or whatever it will be called is inevitable. Don't you think the next step in HD is to store high quality video on computers? No need for DVR, DVD, Direct TV, Comcast, Blockbuster, Netflix, etc. We will download the programs--news, soap operas, sports events, movie or music video to your computer via the internet and wirelessly transmit to your home theater....live or view on demand.

I was thinking the opposite - networks would be fast, delivery methods would be efficient enough, that we wouldn't have to store anything. we'd all go to the thin client model. Including chaptering, local bookmarks of favorite scenes, dynamic advertising (targeted product placement), mutliple angles of live events, remote generated picture in/beside picture, etc....
of course i want to watch the show on my holographic scene generator.....

[wmcbrine]

we'd all go to the thin client model.No thanks.

You'll pry my general-purpose computer from my cold, dead hands.

[emania]

No thanks.

You'll pry .......

speaking of that, i suspect some type of computer will be embedded somewhere in there (sub-dermal, or nanobot) - but no need to pry them out post humously ;) see ray kurzweil et al. while i'm reaching out there, of course there would be no need for the holographic generator, since they'd just directly stimulate the necessary synapses to create the image! (kinda like reading stephen king)

ok, back to reality - dang.

wow - way off topic. I'm still looking for a chipset that will directly convert mpeg4->mpeg2 in real-time so i can save the world (ok, ~200,000 hr10s) anyone?

[parzec]

Not so sure about that. They have lots of receivers that over the course of time dont do what the newest recievers do. I think more likely if they didnt offer a replacement you might have an argument, but given that they have a substitute box, that recieves the channels, it would be up to you as to whether or not you change to the newest equipment.


Only if they offered a replacement for free without contract extension.

[MRPNANCE]

I had just bought my hr10-250 about 2 years ago and paid something like $499. And now I might lose the channels.. I tried sending an email and complaining but they didn't get it...
I also later got a free HR-20 for another room but I HATE the fact that it does not have dual buffers.
They will need to give me a free one for me to replace my 250. I think this is a rip off for something to only last 2 years.

[HiDefGator]

I had just bought my hr10-250 about 2 years ago and paid something like $499. And now I might lose the channels.. I tried sending an email and complaining but they didn't get it...
I also later got a free HR-20 for another room but I HATE the fact that it does not have dual buffers.
They will need to give me a free one for me to replace my 250. I think this is a rip off for something to only last 2 years.

You could have bought it 3 years ago and paid $1000 for it like I did. Would 1 extra year for another $500 make you feel better?

[boneskrw]

How can you seriously complain when Direct TV is replacing the HR10's with HR-20's at little or no cost??? The HR-20/21 is the only way you can receive more HD channels. Direct TV didn't do this for no reason. They had no other way to crowd more HD channels on the old satellites and equipment.

The HR10 is a dinosaur like my old Beta Hi-Fi VCR that I paid $1500 for in 1987. No one offered to replace it at little or no cost when Beta went away. It's time to get over the TIVO DVR already!!!! My HR20 is being istalled Tuesday with a new 5 LNB dish and will cost me $0!!! How upsetting is that?

[ridethefence]

I didn't have HD at all but wanted to upgrade, they were pretty tough on the $299 and finally came down to $199. I passed! I called back a couple more times over the next week and finally talked some CSR into into $99 for a new hr21 installed with the new gear. Kept my Tivo D* DVR and just toggle em for now so I can do the double buffer thing when not watching HD (there aren't many HD channels) I also picked up a hr10 off ebay that should be here any day that I'll replace the old r10 with so I can keep my tivo mpeg2 until the channels are gone. Just ordered a remote HDMI multi switch to make toggeling easier and actually give me triple beffuer capabilities.

Could you give me a little info on how you physically connect the HR10-250 with the new Mpeg4 receiver? How is it possible to toggle between? Will I be able to access the movies saved on the HR10-250? Thanks.

[stevmead]

My HR20 is being istalled Tuesday with a new 5 LNB dish and will cost me $0!!! How upsetting is that?

Let's wait till Tuesday, then you tell us.

[restino]

FALSE. This is not going to happen.

It is false rumor according to 6 reps I have talked to so far regarding this. All in the access card and advanced resoulution team and even some of the dips at basic customer service. 2 said they don't think so. So that is 8 total.

Why do you guys want to worry about something that will not happen? Did you even consider the fact the Tivo has joined back with DirecTV until 2011?

Do you also believe in the fairy god mother will come save you from a green monster under your bed?

[badmonkey]

FALSE. This is not going to happen.

It is false rumor according to 6 reps I have talked to so far regarding this. All in the access card and advanced resoulution team and even some of the dips at basic customer service. 2 said they don't think so. So that is 8 total.

Why do you guys want to worry about something that will not happen? Did you even consider the fact the Tivo has joined back with DirecTV until 2011?

Do you also believe in the fairy god mother will come save you from a green monster under your bed?

You don't actually think they're going to keep the MPEG2 HD channels until 2011, do you? I don't think many people know the exact timeframe, but nobody, even those that are usually in the know, has alluded to anything past early 2009.

Besides, the extended TiVo agreement was basically just to avoid patent infringement issues.

[newsposter]

Could you give me a little info on how you physically connect the HR10-250 with the new Mpeg4 receiver? How is it possible to toggle between? Will I be able to access the movies saved on the HR10-250? Thanks.

cant connect receivers. Some TVs have multiple inputs but if you dont have 2 hdmis you will have to use component. (assuming you have HDTV of course) if you just have a regular tv then S vid would be fine.

[ridethefence]

I'd lean toward them all going away at once. Pulling the plug at once will most likely reduce the amount of time folks call in saying channels are missing (for example, there may be a few weeks worth of calls from customers if they're all gone vs. a few months as channels disappear).

Thanks for doing the comparison...very helpful. Questions: I have an HR10-250 in NY and receive HD locals; your pdf comparison says I do not? Also, I have been reading about "toggling" and connecting my HR10-250 to the Mpeg4 units...how, exactly, can this be done? Thanks again:up:

[ridethefence]

cant connect receivers. Some TVs have multiple inputs but if you dont have 2 hdmis you will have to use component. (assuming you have HDTV of course) if you just have a regular tv then S vid would be fine.

Gotcha...thanks...So I wouldn't keep 2 D* cards active (or would I?) I would just hook it up to the TV via HDMI and access the movies I have stored on it and select "HDMI 1" for the HR20 and "HDMI 2" to get to the stuff recorded on the HR10? Would there be an option to keep the 2 cards active on the one TV with 2 boxes attached? Thanks again..I love talking to knowledgeable people!!

[bpratt]

Would there be an option to keep the 2 cards active on the one TV with 2 boxes attached?

Yes there would. I have 3 D* boxes attached to the same TV.

[joed32]

No one but you would know what the boxes are output to. I have 5 Tvs in my den (NFL nut) and 5 HD DVRs with 2 of them being HR10s. All 5 + the DVD player are able to show on the largest TV. I don't have that many inputs on the TV so they're running through an AV receiver and 2 component connections. The second HDTV gets 4 of them by using a switch. If you keep both active you will have 4 tuners and lots of recording space.

[ebonovic]

FALSE. This is not going to happen.

It is false rumor according to 6 reps I have talked to so far regarding this. All in the access card and advanced resoulution team and even some of the dips at basic customer service. 2 said they don't think so. So that is 8 total.

Why do you guys want to worry about something that will not happen? Did you even consider the fact the Tivo has joined back with DirecTV until 2011?

Do you also believe in the fairy god mother will come save you from a green monster under your bed?

Guaranteed 100%... that MPEG-2 HD via SAT is most certainly going to be eliminated.

LA Networks are going to be first (that includes the LA DNS) are going to be first, as DirecTV is proactively replacing the remaining MPEG-2 only equipment in that DMA.

All extended sports packages are going to be 100% MPEG-4 for HD starting with Extra Innings in 2008.

When HBO completes their own transition to MPEG-4 and starts to send the signal to DirecTV in MPEG-4, it is very likely that is when that signal will become MPEG-4 only as well.

You can even go back to the quarterly reports from Chase himself, where they have stated they are going to do this migration.

The only question, is when is the cutoff for each of the networks going to be.

You can bet... it is going to be much sooner then later though.

[Cudahy]

Just because the full slate of MLBEI will be in 4mpeg next spring doesn't mean they still won't have one or 2 games a day in mpeg2 as they did this year.
Given the humungous number of channels they already have in mpeg2 it doesn't look like they're in any pressure to get rid of the 10 mpeg2 HD channels.

[restino]

Guaranteed 100%... that MPEG-2 HD via SAT is most certainly going to be eliminated.

LA Networks are going to be first (that includes the LA DNS) are going to be first, as DirecTV is proactively replacing the remaining MPEG-2 only equipment in that DMA.

All extended sports packages are going to be 100% MPEG-4 for HD starting with Extra Innings in 2008.

When HBO completes their own transition to MPEG-4 and starts to send the signal to DirecTV in MPEG-4, it is very likely that is when that signal will become MPEG-4 only as well.

You can even go back to the quarterly reports from Chase himself, where they have stated they are going to do this migration.

The only question, is when is the cutoff for each of the networks going to be.

You can bet... it is going to be much sooner then later though.

still waiting for you to 'go your way' as your lable states lol.

your posts always act like you are running directv and tivo at the same time.

fluffy, puffy, hope this and maybe that is all you ever post. you are biased. we are factual. quit making 'predictions' like you know on the inside. go watch your HR20 and color something to keep busy.

my favorite statement you just made which sums up how you post with 'facts':

"Guaranteed 100%" and "most certainly" - lol good one.

[boneskrw]

We'll wait and see who's right. My bet goes along with the CSR last week that said January/February of 2008 is when "they will begin eliminating MPEG2 HD channels". Why would she lie when I already signed up for the HR20?

[restino]

I'll bet they will go away too but in 2 months? All gone like clumps of hair falling out? Yeah, sure.

By definition they are already going away if you want to be factual. At least its a correct statement that I'm making. Its going to be a transition of course. What isnt?

But too many people are making "Help I'm falling off the end of the earth!" type comments that are just hope based on their obvious heart felt deep bias.


I'm biased to but I don't make leaps to the moon playing with words in some statement like voodoo-onovics. :D

Also, I've never known a company statement to be misleading for profit, have you? lol. Sure would be ncie if diptv could waive their wand and create millions of trans-onovics-convert users with new machines in 1440 hours , but they can't (thank god).

Reply with whatever spin you want, I couldn't care any less. Someone just had to step in and halt the sheep running off the cliff here...

[badmonkey]

still waiting for you to 'go your way' as your lable states lol.

your posts always act like you are running directv and tivo at the same time.

fluffy, puffy, hope this and maybe that is all you ever post. you are biased. we are factual. quit making 'predictions' like you know on the inside. go watch your HR20 and color something to keep busy.

my favorite statement you just made which sums up how you post with 'facts':

"Guaranteed 100%" and "most certainly" - lol good one.

Are you kidding? What inside information have you provided in the past? I'm not defending Earl (he doesn't need defending and, even if he did, is perfectly capable of defending himself), but he has continually provided objective factual information from well placed sources. I'd take his word over yours any day.

It might be time for you to wake up and smell the roses. The MPEG2 HD is going away. By all reputable accounts, this will happen sooner rather than later. Definitely sooner than your previously stated 2011.

[Mark Lopez]

still waiting for you to 'go your way' as your lable states lol.

your posts always act like you are running directv and tivo at the same time.

fluffy, puffy, hope this and maybe that is all you ever post. you are biased. we are factual. quit making 'predictions' like you know on the inside. go watch your HR20 and color something to keep busy.

my favorite statement you just made which sums up how you post with 'facts':

"Guaranteed 100%" and "most certainly" - lol good one.

Obviously you have not been around here very long or dont pay attention to things. Earl has some very reliable sources and has rarely (if ever) been wrong about such matters. But go ahead and keep thinking nothing is going to change. But in 6 months (my guess) when the only HD you see on the HR10 is OTA, don't be whining because you didn't have any warning.

[restino]

i think you should follow him lol. and who cares about his little tribes comments.

it is obvious from your comments that you also donot beleive it will happen in 2 months like predicted.

you guys area already backing off your predictions - thanks to me.

reality brought home once again.

geez, i love your 'now' looser predictions "sooner then later" lol. well duh!

why not stick to the 2 month like ebonics did? any othere predictions for the new year?

2 months. im counting. if my hr10-250 still workds in 2 months you are wrong. oh, now we see you backing off. i get it. soo much for your facts.

[TonyD79]

You, Mr restino, are either a fool or you just play one on TV.

Earl does have inside information. Tons of it. He can only share parts of it. He actually talks to the people who do the tasks inside DirecTV, not CSRs and other buffoons.

He has been 99% accurate on things happening and about 90% accurate on timing.

There have been others who have ridiculed him like you are and crowed over small victories (like if is something happens in 6 weeks rather than 3) but have been cowed by Earl being right in the long run. You will just be another buffoon while Earl will be working the in realm of facts. When it is conjecture, he labels it as such, as with his predicition of the HBO timing. The FACT he has shared with us is that MPEG2 HD is going away sooner rather than later. He has pretty much stuck to his guns that it will be all gone in 2008.

You can dance like you were right if it turns out to be May rather than March, but you will still be wrong as it is going away. Those folks at DirecTV are rather busy. Setting up new HD, working on improvements to the DVRs and adding local HD channels. I am sure there is a priority for the MPEG2 HD switchoff but not everything can be done at once.

But, again, given 100 predictions, I will go with Earl 99 times out of 100. How many times will I bet on you? None.

[bigpuma]

i think you should follow him lol. and who cares about his little tribes comments.

it is obvious from your comments that you also donot beleive it will happen in 2 months like predicted.

you guys area already backing off your predictions - thanks to me.

reality brought home once again.

geez, i love your 'now' looser predictions "sooner then later" lol. well duh!

why not stick to the 2 month like ebonics did? any othere predictions for the new year?

2 months. im counting. if my hr10-250 still workds in 2 months you are wrong. oh, now we see you backing off. i get it. soo much for your facts.

Can you point out who predicted 2 months. Even the OP said that the transition will begin in 2 months not that it would be completed. I have predicted that all the Mpeg-2 HD channels will be converted by September of 2008. That is just a prediction I certainly don't have any inside information.

[newsposter]

so when will mpeg5 come online?

[boneskrw]

MPEG5 in about 5 years, judging from how fast MPEG4 showed up.

By the way, some of you do not read very carefully. I'm the OP and quoted the CSR as saying MPEG2 HD will BEGIN to disappear in January/February 2008. If only one channel is converted to MPEG4, she would have been right.

[jcaudle]

Why not get a system 3 and cable...instead of HD Lite.

[boneskrw]

Why not watch OTA and get HD Heavy? Or, only watch HD DVD's? You HD Lite guys are really out there--kind of like the vacuum tube audio people.

[Mark Lopez]

it is obvious from your comments that you also donot beleive it will happen in 2 months like predicted.


:confused: When did I or anyone else ever say 2 months? I did say that there would probably be a 30-60 day notice sent out via snail mail as they have done before when making changes like this. My personal prediction is 6 months. It might be sooner, it might be later. But regardless I'm confident it will happen before the end of next year. And certainly not 'never going to happen' or '2011'.

[Mark Lopez]

Why not watch OTA and get HD Heavy? Or, only watch HD DVD's? You HD Lite guys are really out there--kind of like the vacuum tube audio people.

:rolleyes: Perhaps because some of us don't like the limited choices of OTA progamming and don't consider the new MPEG4 HD channels to be 'lite' enough to make that much of a difference. But if you want to sit around and watch 3 or 4 channels of HD OTA and spend your money buying or renting a limited number of HD DVDs, go for it. <shrug>

[boneskrw]

Mark,
I think you and I are in agreement with the original posting on this thread. Jcaudle said "why not get system 3 and cable instead of HD Lite." I've not seen or heard that cable HD PQ is superior to Direct TV HD---whether MPEG2 or MPEG4. I have noticed that OTA with my HR10 often has superior PQ to satellite channels. For live sports broadcasts and some others, especially on FOX, PQ is often outstanding OTA. I certainly don't advocate watching only OTA or DVD's. If I'm "showing off" my home theater, it is always an OTA broadcast that I've TIVO'd---Such as the Eagles singing one of their new songs on the CMT awards--great PQ and Dolby 5.1 sound.

[TonyD79]

Why not get a system 3 and cable...instead of HD Lite.

Why not comment only on what you know. MPEG4 is not HD Lite.

But my cable company's lineup sure is.

[HazelW]

Why not comment only on what you know. MPEG4 is not HD Lite.

But my cable company's lineup sure is.

I thought the MPEG4 were 1440x1080? May not see the difference on all TVs, but its not the full picture sent by the provider. Adn the SD on many channels is just horrible--way overly compressed. Verizon FIOS does none of this.

[bpratt]

I thought the MPEG4 were 1440x1080? May not see the difference on all TVs, but its not the full picture sent by the provider. Adn the SD on many channels is just horrible--way overly compressed. Verizon FIOS does none of this.
MPEG4 is a compression protocol used mostly to compress digital audio and video. It can be used to compress any digital data. Full HDTV is defined as 1080 lines of 1920 pixels for 1080i and 720 lines of 1280 pixels for 720p. Since the amount of compression done by MPEG4 is controlled by the user, I don't know whether D* has comperssed it down to 1440 pixels or if they are broadcasting the full 1920, but they could do either.

I disagree that D*s SD channels are horrible. They all look good on my TVs. Some of the new digital TVs do a poor job of displaying 480i formats. Maybe you have one of them.

[milominderbinder]

So someone was told that:

"Direct TV Eliminating MPEG2 HD Channels Early 2008"

Others are being told other time-frames.

I believe Earl that the old MPEG2 channels will be eliminated for Extra Innings. That begins April 2.

If you break a year into early, mid, and late, you would divide the year into four month blocks.

April 2 is in the first four months and therefore is early 2008.

Therefore the statement appears to be correct.

We will know April 2.

The next major date will come when Sunday Ticket starts in August.

I posted the details about the conversion in a previous TC thread:

DIRECTV Looks to "Stretch Out" MPEG4 Conversion (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=374119)

- Craig

[Mark Lopez]

I disagree that D*s SD channels are horrible. They all look good on my TVs. Some of the new digital TVs do a poor job of displaying 480i formats. Maybe you have one of them.

IMO the SD programs that are broadcast on the MPEG4 HD channels (i.e. scifi channel) look much better then the MPEG2 version. Note I am talking about things originally filmed in SD but just broadcast on the HD channel.

[Archangel00]

The CSR said the existing MPEG2 HD channels will begin disappearing in January or February.

Most of ya'll seem to be forgetting that the biggest part of the speculation on when and what will happen hinges on the MONUMENTALLY important and complicated task of getting D11 launched and placed into service.

Untill that is done there most lilkely won't be any more earth shattering changes.

That is now looking to be around Summer of 08 at the earliest so...you do the math...

[badmonkey]

Most of ya'll seem to be forgetting that the biggest part of the speculation on when and what will happen hinges on the MONUMENTALLY important and complicated task of getting D11 launched and placed into service.

Untill that is done there most lilkely won't be any more earth shattering changes.

That is now looking to be around Summer of 08 at the earliest so...you do the math...

I believe your logic is flawed on this one. D11 launching will provide additional bandwidth to further expand the HD lineup. The MPEG4 transition will allow DirecTV to better utilize the bandwidth they have (as well as any new bandwidth). For that reason, I would argue that it is more likely that the successful launch of D11 will have no bearing on the MPEG4 transition. In fact, I would suspect that problems or delays with D11 would actually hasten the transition to MPEG4.

[dburckh]

I disagree that D*s SD channels are horrible. They all look good on my TVs. Some of the new digital TVs do a poor job of displaying 480i formats. Maybe you have one of them.

I had an H20 and the SD channels were unwatchable. I don't know if it was an incompatibility with the DTV hardware and TV, but it was horrible. I replaced it with an HR10-250 and everything was bliss, until today. ...but that is another story.

[sjberra]

still waiting for you to 'go your way' as your lable states lol.

your posts always act like you are running directv and tivo at the same time.

fluffy, puffy, hope this and maybe that is all you ever post. you are biased. we are factual. quit making 'predictions' like you know on the inside. go watch your HR20 and color something to keep busy.

my favorite statement you just made which sums up how you post with 'facts':

"Guaranteed 100%" and "most certainly" - lol good one.

/rofl would put my money on Earl's statements way before that of a CSR - they will be gone, if you do some research, it has already been published that the premium sports packages will be MPEG4 next year, so that is a pretty good indication the fate of MPEG2 is sealed and just waiting for the wake.

[jimb726]

Only if they offered a replacement for free without contract extension.


The problem with this is the fact that they have been doing replacements with extensions since before the HR20 rolled out if I recall. I had gotten a HR-10 from them that was leased and reset my commitment. The 2 HR-10's that were replaced under the Protection PLan, however were different stories.

[renlopez]

I got my 3rd recorded call last night from DirecTV stating that my Tivo will soon no longer be able to receive the HD channels that I get.

I resisted calling back on the first couple of times since I did not want them to take my Tivo away.

I called last night and the CSR stated that after 12/31/07, DirecTV will stop broadcasting Mpeg2 HD channels and my HR10-250 will become just a high capacity Standard Dev DVR.

I asked about the free upgrade and he said it was a HD receiver swap. I told him that I wanted to keep the HR10 to use as a standard def DVR and he said that I could keep it. So I got the HR20 or HR21 for free and I don't have to give back the Tivo.

Now my question is if the 12/31/07 date that he told me is legit. I guess I'll find out.

[Cudahy]

I got the same 3rd call yesterday. All three said that the current HD channels would "eventually" be eliminated. Since so many Directv customers with HD can currently only get mpeg2 channels I assume the CSR was lying, as usual.

[bigpuma]

I asked about the free upgrade and he said it was a HD receiver swap. I told him that I wanted to keep the HR10 to use as a standard def DVR and he said that I could keep it. So I got the HR20 or HR21 for free and I don't have to give back the Tivo.

Now my question is if the 12/31/07 date that he told me is legit. I guess I'll find out.

FYI I was told that I would swap my HR10 for an HR20 back in October 2006. The installer never asked for the HR10. A few weeks ago I got the call and set up an appointment to "swap" my HR10. I am still using my HR10 for SD recording. :)

[sjberra]

I got the same 3rd call yesterday. All three said that the current HD channels would "eventually" be eliminated. Since so many Directv customers with HD can currently only get mpeg2 channels I assume the CSR was lying, as usual.

read the threads here and over on dbstalk - mpeg2 is going away and sooner then later

[JohnB1000]

I got the same 3rd call yesterday. All three said that the current HD channels would "eventually" be eliminated. Since so many Directv customers with HD can currently only get mpeg2 channels I assume the CSR was lying, as usual.

I think you'll find the that "so many" is not actually very many.

[alaskahill]

DirecTV has started calling people and giving them a free upgrade from an HR10 to HR20. My guess is they are staggering these calls so that by the time they start eliminating the current MPeg-2 HD channels everyone with an HR10 will get the opportunity to upgrade for free. Unless you are wanting to upgrade now to see the channels you can't get with the HR10 I would just wait a little longer and see what they are offering in January or February.

I just got a second free HR20 because they called me and offered it. I am guessing this was a mistake since I already got a free upgrade in October of 2006 but I am not complaining. :)

No mistake, I just go the same offer and had upgraded my HR10 3 months ago. This time I have to give up my HR10, but I get a second HR20 for free. Sad day but time to say good bye and move on...

[bigpuma]

No mistake, I just go the same offer and had upgraded my HR10 3 months ago. This time I have to give up my HR10, but I get a second HR20 for free. Sad day but time to say good bye and move on...

I understand what they told you, my point is that I was told twice that I would have to give up my HR10 but both times the installer never asked for it.

[sjberra]

I understand what they told you, my point is that I was told twice that I would have to give up my HR10 but both times the installer never asked for it.

You don;t have to give it up, it will just not recieve any HD outside of OTA when the mpeg2 channels are shutdown. One of mine is in the garage hooked up to an antenna for OTA. The replaced the other HR10 with a HR20 via the protection plan, I asked if they wanted the HR10 back, the csr said no, then we have to worry about disposing of it, you get to do that now

[alaskahill]

I understand what they told you, my point is that I was told twice that I would have to give up my HR10 but both times the installer never asked for it.

Actually that wasn't my point. When they show up today I will see if I really have to return the HR10. My point was that they seem to be being pretty aggressive in getting the HR10's replaced even if you had done one of the other deals recently.

In this case, they did say that in order to get it for free and no extension of my contract I will need to give my HR10 to the installer. If I wanted to keep it then I would need to pay 199 and my contract would be extended.

[bigpuma]

You don;t have to give it up, it will just not recieve any HD outside of OTA when the mpeg2 channels are shutdown. One of mine is in the garage hooked up to an antenna for OTA. The replaced the other HR10 with a HR20 via the protection plan, I asked if they wanted the HR10 back, the csr said no, then we have to worry about disposing of it, you get to do that now

I understand that, but alaskahill was concerned about having to send back his actual HR10. I was just pointing out that I was also told (twice) that I would have to give back my HR10 but I never did. I currently use my HR10 for SD recording in my office since it has a bigger HD capacity than my old R10.

[bigpuma]

Actually that wasn't my point. When they show up today I will see if I really have to return the HR10. My point was that they seem to be being pretty aggressive in getting the HR10's replaced even if you had done one of the other deals recently.

In this case, they did say that in order to get it for free and no extension of my contract I will need to give my HR10 to the installer. If I wanted to keep it then I would need to pay 199 and my contract would be extended.

I see. I had to do the 2 year contract both times, but there is no way I would even consider cable which has no HD in my area. Perhaps I could switch to DISH but I am happy with my HR20s and I doubt the VIP 722 is any better so no point in that.

[renlopez]

Actually that wasn't my point. When they show up today I will see if I really have to return the HR10. My point was that they seem to be being pretty aggressive in getting the HR10's replaced even if you had done one of the other deals recently.

In this case, they did say that in order to get it for free and no extension of my contract I will need to give my HR10 to the installer. If I wanted to keep it then I would need to pay 199 and my contract would be extended.

I don't think that DirecTV wants HR10 returned anymore. I have heard a lot of people say that DTV told them they would only get the free HR20 if they returned the HR10 to the installer. But those same people also said that the installer never asked for them back.

When I called to get my HR20/21 upgrade, I asked if I could keep the HR10 and the Retention rep said yes I could. He noted it down in the work order that the installer should not collect my HR10.

Originally, I think DTV wanted to get as many HR10's off the market so they could accellerate their plan to stop supporting MPEG2 HD channels. Now, I don't think they care how many HR10s are out there because they have decided to stop broadcasing MPEG2 HD no matter what.

Another friend of mine had a leased HR10 and they didn't even want that one back.

[KSbugeater]

Those of you getting recorded calls from D*, is it permissible for you to post the phone number of those calls? or maybe just the area code and prefix? We don't answer any calls from 800- or 888- etc. but I would answer a call from D* if I knew it was coming.

[renlopez]

My caller ID just said "800 Service"

I wasn't going to answer it either, but I did. and I'm glad.

When I called DTV, when the automated response asked why I was calling, I said "CANCEL". It then asked me if I wanted to change my programming or cancel service and I again repeated "CANCEL". This is the sure way to get to the retention department directly without having to talk to anybody.

[quiddich]

And they left a message on my answering machine (I don't answer incoming 8xx calls most of the time, either) giving that as the call-back number.

Having checked what Comcast offers in my neighborhood, I think I'm going to take DTV up on their offer. Hope I can get an R20 from them!

----

Just got off the phone with DTV; I have an install date of 1/13 (yes, it's a Sunday) and my request for an HR20 was noted. The CSR claimed that there would be an update to the HR21 in the spring to provide OTA, but I still want an HR20.

[John Silver]

I remember buying a pair of 10-250s for over $1000 each, and shortly thereafter Directv telling us they would soon go obsolete because of MPEG4. With promises of "home servers" and other things, we were told we'd be taken care of. Well, over the last three years, my 10-250s cost me over $50 per month extra (2,000/36) to watch HD and now $2,000 in equipment will turn into doorstops. Am I wrong in thinking that a charge of ANY amount to upgrade to a 20 is a slap in the face?

[Mark Lopez]

I remember buying a pair of 10-250s for over $1000 each, and shortly thereafter Directv telling us they would soon go obsolete because of MPEG4.

That's odd. They were never over $1000 unless you foolishly bought one on e-bay early on. And I would not call 3+ years 'shortly'. BTW, I bought 2 at full $1K retail price too.

.....we were told we'd be taken care of.

We were? By who? Link please.

Well, over the last three years, my 10-250s cost me over $50 per month extra (2,000/36) to watch HD.....

Huh? $50 a month extra? :confused: Where did you come up with that number?

Am I wrong in thinking that a charge of ANY amount to upgrade to a 20 is a slap in the face?

Yep. That's just the way it goes. My HDTV cost me $3K+ a few years ago and I can get a better model for half that price today.

And if you call them, they will replace it for free. So what's the problem?

[fasTLane]

Too bad that Direct doesn't now have a DVR that folks would pay $1000 to use... ;)

[John Silver]

That's odd. They were never over $1000 unless you foolishly bought one on e-bay early on. And I would not call 3+ years 'shortly'. BTW, I bought 2 at full $1K retail price too.

I'm not a fool and have never bought anything off ebay. But thanks for ignorantly leaning toward the fool judgment of me. $1,200 for a Weaknees model and about $1,000 for a plane jane from Best Buy. Sorry I wasn't more exact. But put that aside. Lets say I spent $900 each. That's still an unacceptable $50 per month.

We were? By who? Link please.

No smoking gun, but lots of people were under the impression they would be upgraded for free since the obsolete announcement was made within the first year. But hey, it could just be my imagination. I do remember a letter from a Directv executive stating as much, but I can't find it now. Here are just a few of the threads discussing the issue:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=238654
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=280502
http://gear.ign.com/articles/679/679224p1.html
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=336352

But really, if we must document everything said or written as a CYA while doing business with Directv, don't you think there's a problem there? I do and if it will cost me anything to migrate to the 20, I'll take Dish up on their two free hi-def dvr's and try them for ten years at $80/month. I may be disappointed but I will have my dignity.

Huh? $50 a month extra? :confused: Where did you come up with that number?

Two thousand, divided by 36 months, comes out to $55.55. And I fully expect a $1,000 device to last a hell of a lot longer than three years. (And at $900 each, that's still $50). No matter how you slice it, with a $1,000 device going obsolete in three years, you will have paid an extra $25 per receiver per month for hi-def during its lifespan. I do not believe Directv markets that particular fact and only a shill for the company would dispute it or belittle someone bringing this fact up. I must apologize for answering so harshly but I sometimes get into this mode when the situation warrants it.

Yep. That's just the way it goes. My HDTV cost me $3K+ a few years ago and I can get a better model for half that price today.

Not upset about the price falling, only when things go obsolete before they are dead.

And if you call them, they will replace it for free. So what's the problem?

If this is true, I have no beef.

[alaskahill]

I don't think that DirecTV wants HR10 returned anymore. I have heard a lot of people say that DTV told them they would only get the free HR20 if they returned the HR10 to the installer. But those same people also said that the installer never asked for them back.

When I called to get my HR20/21 upgrade, I asked if I could keep the HR10 and the Retention rep said yes I could. He noted it down in the work order that the installer should not collect my HR10.

Originally, I think DTV wanted to get as many HR10's off the market so they could accellerate their plan to stop supporting MPEG2 HD channels. Now, I don't think they care how many HR10s are out there because they have decided to stop broadcasing MPEG2 HD no matter what.

Another friend of mine had a leased HR10 and they didn't even want that one back.

Yep they just came yesterday to "replace" by HR10. the installer ended up not taking the HR10. Fundamentally, I really can't complain here. My HR10 was one of the first batch so I paid the full price. However I got some good use out of it, then got the 19.95 deal to upgrade it (which did include a 1 yr contract extension). I kept the HR10 activated, then I used that same HR10 to get another replacement (this time for free w/ no extension but in theory I had to give the HR10 back which I ended up not having to).

[JeffZ81]

The good new is: After deciding to give up for now on the $299 upgrade to HR20, I looked at my email and they said since I was a customer since 1993, I qualify for a NO COST update. The email stated this offer is only for me, not my friends and relatives.

Yes, in the earlier phone call, I asked the CSR when the MPEG2 channels would start being eliminated. She didn't know, but checked with her supervisor, who gave the January-February date. I didn't say in my posting above this is a sure thing. I just said that is what the CSR stated. Some of you are a little jumpy over this issue, too--kind of like TIVO vs. HR20. I personally think Direct TV has been and is being very fair in their dealings with customers. That's why they're one of the top-rated companies by J.D. Powers.

When the MPEG-2 HD channels are elminated, will DirecTV transmit the national LA and NY stations in MPEG4?

[milominderbinder]

When the MPEG-2 HD channels are elminated, will DirecTV transmit the national LA and NY stations in MPEG4?Yes.

In April, MLB EI and then in August, NFL ST will be MPEG4 HD only. Someday soon the LA and NY locals will be MPEG4 too.

- Craig

[milominderbinder]

I remember buying a pair of 10-250s for over $1000 each, and shortly thereafter Directv telling us they would soon go obsolete because of MPEG4. With promises of "home servers" and other things, we were told we'd be taken care of. Well, over the last three years, my 10-250s cost me over $50 per month extra (2,000/36) to watch HD and now $2,000 in equipment will turn into doorstops. Am I wrong in thinking that a charge of ANY amount to upgrade to a 20 is a slap in the face?
About a zillion people here have gotten the upgrade for free. Most between April and September.

You were here when everyone was getting the free deals. Why didn't you?

Have you called DIRECTV to see for yourself?

- Craig

[milominderbinder]

...No smoking gun, but lots of people were under the impression they would be upgraded for free since the obsolete announcement was made within the first year. But hey, it could just be my imagination. I do remember a letter from a Directv executive stating as much, but I can't find it now. Here are just a few of the threads discussing the issue:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=238654
...I went to the first link and found this from 3 years ago:I think the question right now for most people is dropping $500 or more on hardware that will be obsolete at an indeterminent point in the future, and it is unknown what the upgrade cost will be....- Craig

[jfischer]

I got my HR20 upgrade for free in October. New dish, HR20, kept my HR10-250, and no 2-year contract (at least according to the DirecTV web site, I have no contract).

I've been a subscriber for 10 years though, which may have helped, I don't know.

[sjberra]

I got my HR20 upgrade for free in October. New dish, HR20, kept my HR10-250, and no 2-year contract (at least according to the DirecTV web site, I have no contract).

I've been a subscriber for 10 years though, which may have helped, I don't know.

Never seen the commitment line on the website, where are you finding it stating that you have no contract? Always had to call in and ask the CSR

[Mark Lopez]

Never seen the commitment line on the website, where are you finding it stating that you have no contract? Always had to call in and ask the CSR

Perhaps that's why he thinks he doesn't have one. :) FWIW, I've never seen it listed either.

[sjberra]

Perhaps that's why he thinks he doesn't have one. :) FWIW, I've never seen it listed either.

mine expired 11/30/2007, did not show before or after

[renlopez]

Well I still get all the MPEG2 HD channels on my HR10-250 with the exception of HDNM and UHD but that is a different story. So I guess it's official, the retention rep who told me 12/31/07 was lying.

Now the question is, how much longer will we have the MPEG2 channels?

[rickmeoff]

So I guess it's official, the retention rep who told me 12/31/07 was lying.




um, was there ever any doubt?

for them to stop broadcasting mpeg2 hd channels, they would have to notify their remaining customers and advise them of such, in plenty of time so that they could have the opportunity to upgrade to mpeg4 capable equipment.

whether it be by mail, a message on their current dvr, by phone, smoke signal or pigeon.

dtv is in business to make money and to do this any other way, would just be plain idiotic.

[renlopez]

um, was there ever any doubt?

for them to stop broadcasting mpeg2 hd channels, they would have to notify their remaining customers and advise them of such, in plenty of time so that they could have the opportunity to upgrade to mpeg4 capable equipment.

whether it be by mail, a message on their current dvr, by phone, smoke signal or pigeon.

dtv is in business to make money and to do this any other way, would just be plain idiotic.

I started getting that recorded call from DirecTV about 2 months ago. The last one mid December said that this is the 3rd and final notification that the current equipment you are using will not receive the new HD channels and will soon not be able to receive the current HD channels. It was also the 3rd and final offer to upgrade to the new DVR for free.

To me, 3 calls was sufficient notice. Hasn't everyone gotten these recorded calls?

[richierich]

I lost a couple of HD channels a month or so ago and I just called and complained to Customer Retention and they said that a certain package deal had been offered and when it expired and if you hadn't bought the HD package they unplugged you. Well, they unplugged everyone who didn't opt to buy that package so I complained that I was a good customer and should be grandfathered in. She reinstated all of my HD channels including HDNET HDNMovies, channel 95 which I get because of Total Choice Plus, etc. So I now have all of my HD channels that I originally had in the original HD package offered when it first was created.

The CSR really knew alot more than the normal CSRs you speak to and she said that it would be a long time before they unplugged everyone from MPEG-2 HD channels because they would piss off too many good customers. She said they had plenty of bandwidth so there was no urgency to do so.

[Mark Lopez]

The CSR really knew alot more than the normal CSRs you speak to .....

She said they had plenty of bandwidth so there was no urgency to do so.

Ummm... apparently not.

[wmldwilly]

One of my less-than-savvy friends got the call from DTV about 3 weeks ago. He had ignored all the automated "this is not a sales call" calls just like I had. When he got the call around the middle of December this particular rep told him "Your upgrade to our new DVR from your HD Tivo DVR is free because on January 1 all of your HD channels will go black...but you can keep the unit and we'll move it to another room for you if you like."

That's one tactic I suppose to get people to upgrade! :-D I took the initiative and called in with a liberal helping of "I'm not happy about this and am considering switching to cable over it" and the HR21 was given to me for $19.95 in shipping and handling. Even that's sort of crap because he delivered an open box unit (the internal packages weren't open, just the carton) and after chatting with me for a minute or two just signed the form and handed me the carton and left. I was happy to set it up myself since I had wiring in place already and was basically plopping it in my entertainment rig in place of the R20 (non-dvr) HD receiver and leaving my HR10-250 undisturbed.

ON a side note - I light television shows for a living, so I would like to think I watch my HD with a more discerning eye. At the very least a very spoiled eye considering at work I watch TV on various $25,000 monitors that are adjusted every morning by a seriously expert level engineer. I have to say I like the look of MPEG2 channels better than the MPEG4 channels I can now see. I watch in 720p on the last version of the Panasonic 37" plasma using the HDMI inputs and what I mainly have noticed is that the MPEG2 channels look a little more deep and rich, almost never evidence breakup and banding in dark gradated areas, and I see less motion smear in MPEG2. This is by no means scientific, just my trained eye's observation.

I suppose there's no stopping the MPEG2 flood, but I am a little sad that once again we're being "upgraded" to less functionality and less coolness, and to my eye less of the deep rich goregeousness that HD shows like CSI: Vegas or Numb3rs or others.

Happy New Year,

WM

[tivoboy]

Just had a couple lost on the H10-250. Normally, RARELY we watch the FSN BA (Bay Area) feed for Stanford sports games. But, on Thursday we couldn't get to the game. I checked, and it was on FSNBA, but indeed, nothing was coming in. There wasn't the prompt on the screen that I didn't receive that channel, just nothing.

Checked on our HR20, and boom there it was. Not SD, not HD but something. I have the feeling that the FSN has moved to MPEG4 already.

[divedude]

I check in every once in a while to see what the rumors are. I have been a customer of DirecTV since they started selling service. I have 2 HR10-250's that I have purchased. I got the first one the day it came out. I have not been contacted by DirecTV about upgrades, having my HD turned off or anything. Not by telephone, mail, email or in my bill. And they didn't have a problem sending me a bill for the month of January for HD services.

If they turn me off without any notice, I won't be back. The least they could do is contact me.

[Mark Lopez]

If they turn me off without any notice, I won't be back. The least they could do is contact me.

But now, even though you know what's going on, you will still just dump them just because they didn't call you? :rolleyes: Even though it could just be because they have an outdated phone number? BTW, the pnone number you may have listed on their web site under your account is not necessarily the one they have the account listed under in the main system. I had changed it on-line a few years ago but until I called recently, it did not get changed where it counts.

[shibby191]

Plus if you told them to put you on their "no call" list at one time then you won't get a call either. ;) And even if they have your email address you need to opt in to receiving emails from them about things like this. They won't spam you unless you ask for it.

[kdonnel]

Hasn't everyone gotten these recorded calls?

I have received no calls, letters, or smoke signals.

I do not get any of the west coast only local HD channels. I only get the national CBS and FOX in HD from the east coast.

Perhaps as I have read here and elsewhere, they are planning on eliminating the LA HD locals in MPEG2 first. That would explain who is being targeted with the calls.

[turey22]

[QUOTE=channelserf;5774112]There are several people who are getting a 5 LNB dish & HR20/21 upgrade free. I got the call last week to replace my HR10 (no 2 year reset either! That's what they said...). I doubt MPEG 2 is going away in the next few months. if you haven't got the free upgrade offer I'd hold out a little while longer.[/QUOTE

they are calling people but only if they have a sports subcription like nfl, mlb...etc. they are basiclly moving eveything over to mpeg-4 soon.

[JohnDG]

Just had a couple lost on the H10-250. Normally, RARELY we watch the FSN BA (Bay Area) feed for Stanford sports games. But, on Thursday we couldn't get to the game. I checked, and it was on FSNBA, but indeed, nothing was coming in. There wasn't the prompt on the screen that I didn't receive that channel, just nothing.

Checked on our HR20, and boom there it was. Not SD, not HD but something. I have the feeling that the FSN has moved to MPEG4 already.

Wasn't that the strangest thing? Both my SD and HD TiVos showed a black screen on SD 655 (FSN BA+), no authorization error messages, and the game (UCLA - Stanford) was in the guide for 7:30 - 1:30, like normal. I've recieved programming on 655 in the past with no problems on my TiVos.

My HR21 had both the SD and HD versions available. I was taping the HD 655-1 on the HR21, and the SD 655 on the TiVo as a backup.

Go Bruins! :-)

jdg

[incog-neato]

No never got one. That because of where you live. I started getting that recorded call from DirecTV about 2 months ago. The last one mid December said that this is the 3rd and final notification that the current equipment you are using will not receive the new HD channels and will soon not be able to receive the current HD channels. It was also the 3rd and final offer to upgrade to the new DVR for free.

To me, 3 calls was sufficient notice. Hasn't everyone gotten these recorded calls?

[incog-neato]

That only applies to sales related calls.Plus if you told them to put you on their "no call" list at one time then you won't get a call either. ;) And even if they have your email address you need to opt in to receiving emails from them about things like this. They won't spam you unless you ask for it.

[ghostdog]

I'm not a fool and have never bought anything off ebay. But thanks for ignorantly leaning toward the fool judgment of me. $1,200 for a Weaknees model and about $1,000 for a plane jane from Best Buy. Sorry I wasn't more exact. But put that aside. Lets say I spent $900 each. That's still an unacceptable $50 per month.



No smoking gun, but lots of people were under the impression they would be upgraded for free since the obsolete announcement was made within the first year. But hey, it could just be my imagination. I do remember a letter from a Directv executive stating as much, but I can't find it now. Here are just a few of the threads discussing the issue:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=238654
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=280502
http://gear.ign.com/articles/679/679224p1.html
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=336352

But really, if we must document everything said or written as a CYA while doing business with Directv, don't you think there's a problem there? I do and if it will cost me anything to migrate to the 20, I'll take Dish up on their two free hi-def dvr's and try them for ten years at $80/month. I may be disappointed but I will have my dignity.



Two thousand, divided by 36 months, comes out to $55.55. And I fully expect a $1,000 device to last a hell of a lot longer than three years. (And at $900 each, that's still $50). No matter how you slice it, with a $1,000 device going obsolete in three years, you will have paid an extra $25 per receiver per month for hi-def during its lifespan. I do not believe Directv markets that particular fact and only a shill for the company would dispute it or belittle someone bringing this fact up. I must apologize for answering so harshly but I sometimes get into this mode when the situation warrants it.



Not upset about the price falling, only when things go obsolete before they are dead.



If this is true, I have no beef.

Been enjoying my 'free' upgrade since September.
A call to retention resolves most issues if you have some history w/ Directv.

[newsposter]

Plus if you told them to put you on their "no call" list at one time then you won't get a call either. ;) And even if they have your email address you need to opt in to receiving emails from them about things like this. They won't spam you unless you ask for it.

and not even then....a year or so ago i stopped getting all my emails from them about ppv etc...i went in and resubbed and waited..nope...called them...they couldnt figure out how to spam me even though i want it! too funny

[DolphinGirl]

[/QUOTE
they are calling people but only if they have a sports subcription like nfl, mlb...etc. they are basiclly moving eveything over to mpeg-4 soon.[/QUOTE]

I've had NFL Sunday Ticket from day one and I have not received a singular call, email or any official notification of loss of MPEG2.

[shibby191]

they are calling people but only if they have a sports subcription like nfl, mlb...etc. they are basiclly moving eveything over to mpeg-4 soon.

I've had NFL Sunday Ticket from day one and I have not received a singular call, email or any official notification of loss of MPEG2.

The only calls right now are going to 2 sets of subs:
1) Those with LA locals and using LA DNS. They plan to shut these down ASAP
2) Hotpass HD subs are getting offers since that will be MPEG4 only this year

soon MLB EI HD subs will be getting calls since that will be all MPEG4 this year.

I'd expect Sunday Ticket HD subs to get the same calls but not until summer.

[bigpuma]

The only calls right now are going to 2 sets of subs:
1) Those with LA locals and using LA DNS. They plan to shut these down ASAP
2) Hotpass HD subs are getting offers since that will be MPEG4 only this year

soon MLB EI HD subs will be getting calls since that will be all MPEG4 this year.

I'd expect Sunday Ticket HD subs to get the same calls but not until summer.

I don't have LA locals nor do I subscribe to Hotpass HD and I got a call and an email. I do have Sunday Ticket though.

[milominderbinder]

The only calls right now are going to 2 sets of subs:
1) Those with LA locals and using LA DNS. They plan to shut these down ASAP
2) Hotpass HD subs are getting offers since that will be MPEG4 only this year

soon MLB EI HD subs will be getting calls since that will be all MPEG4 this year.

I'd expect Sunday Ticket HD subs to get the same calls but not until summer.Why do you have to sit and wait to be called?

Why not call 1-800-DIRECTV and see what they say?

Or send an email like the one linked here:

→ Ordering Tips (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=839938#post839938)

- Craig

[Mark Lopez]

Why do you have to sit and wait to be called?

Why not call 1-800-DIRECTV and see what they say?

Or send an email like the one linked here:


Because some people just like to have an excuse to whine. Especially when it involves loosing their Tivo.

[fasTLane]

Talk about whine!

No plans to looose mine.

Run along and enjoy your Poopert-box.

[rickmeoff]

Because some people just like to have an excuse to whine. Especially when it involves loosing their Tivo.



well most people just tighten their tivo up when its loose.

[Mark Lopez]

Talk about whine!

No plans to looose mine.

Run along and enjoy your Poopert-box.


Who's whining other than the Tivo die-hards?:confused:

Well, you won't lose (for the spell check police :rolleyes: ) it as long as you like SD, and what few OTA HD channels you might get. Bet you still have an 8 track player in use. ;)

Yep, I'm enjoying both of my fast, trouble free, don't need an IQ above 2 to operate, 1TB HR20s and all of the HD programming. :)



well most people just tighten their tivo up when its loose.

Too bad they can't tighten up those loose screws in their heads. ;)

[TyroneShoes]

...ON a side note - I light television shows for a living, so I would like to think I watch my HD with a more discerning eye. At the very least a very spoiled eye considering at work I watch TV on various $25,000 monitors that are adjusted every morning by a seriously expert level engineer. I have to say I like the look of MPEG2 channels better than the MPEG4 channels I can now see. I watch in 720p on the last version of the Panasonic 37" plasma using the HDMI inputs and what I mainly have noticed is that the MPEG2 channels look a little more deep and rich, almost never evidence breakup and banding in dark gradated areas, and I see less motion smear in MPEG2. This is by no means scientific, just my trained eye's observation...

Wow. Just keep telling yourself that. I still feel the love, but I'm afraid I find that to be one wacky point of view, pardner. “By no means scientific”, indeed.

First of all, general comparisons of MPEG2 channels with MPEG4 channels are only valid if comparing the exact same content on the exact same equipment from the same original source within a similar time frame. You could compare local OTA PQ with the same channels over DTV as MPEG4, I guess, but this doesn't appear to be that. Otherwise there are just way, way too many other variables to draw even general conclusions about the nature of any difference between two processes designed to do essentially the same thing, only differently. If it's merely an unscientific first impression, I can dig that, but this feels more like an indictment of MPEG4 as done by DTV in general.

And I have no issue with that if done properly, we need to hold them accountable, we just need to hold them accountable fairly, and credibly. While you’re completely entitled to your impressions, I mean absolutely no offense, and this is in no way meant to be an attack, but many of the things you say here make me wonder if you really have any idea at all what you are talking about. First, some quick examples of what I mean by that:

1. Expensive monitors need not be “adjusted” regularly. That’s where most of that money goes, into calibration that doesn’t drift. “Expert level” engineers that adjust them daily or regularly are seriously NOT “expert level”, and are actually dangerous and counterproductive speed-bumps to everyone else in the business.

What you as an artist may perceive as engineers adjusting monitors is probably actually engineers adjusting video parameters at the camera shading console, and then objectively quantifying that using other real dedicated calibration instruments such as waveform monitors and vectorscopes, and then viewing it subjectively on an expensive picture monitor that is only “adjusted” to get from one mode to another. A picture monitor is never used for actually adjusting the calibration of anything in the professional world. If it were, that would be doing things exactly backwards. That's where the passive term "monitor" actually comes from. Its merely a tool to subjectively quantify what you've objectively "adjusted" ahead of that point in the chain.

Furthermore, video is only "adjusted" in the analog domain. Once digital, there is no opportunity to tweak the parameters of video, and that is by design. The days of engineers making adjustments to video parameters anywhere but at the camera shading console or much later in post-production have been gone for many years. Used in concert with lighting live sets, a picture monitor is only really a QoS confidence monitor these days, and as such, is never adjusted.

2. You really bought that “$25,000” story hook, line, and sinker, didn’t you? In over 3 decades, including major market video broadcast engineering for network-owned and operated stations, the most I ever paid for or even ever saw a professional-level picture monitor go for was 13K (Ikegamis, all of which have long since gone to the scrap heap).

3. “Breakup” implies a buffer underflow to the decoder, which is simply not a factor that can be attributed to any perceived difference between encoding algorithms such as MPEG2 and MPEG4. If the system works properly and there is no underflow, there is no breakup, completely regardless of what is being used to encode it. Breakup is a delivery issue, not anything inherent to encoding algorithms themselves. MPEG4 actually responds to comparative levels of underflow slightly better, and less “visually offensively”, than MPEG2, but that's also not reflective of the actual quality of the process, only reflective of the potential decoder response to errors in the bitstream delivery.

4. “Banding” (usually, and apparently as you describe it) refers to manifestation of quantization noise error. Ironically, another one of the improvements of MPEG4 over MPEG2 is that it manifests much less of this type of artifact under almost every condition. It’s imperative to make comparisons only on identical source material, but even if not I find it odd at best that you are seeing it more on channels transmitted in M4 than those transmitted in M2. If you are seeing visible quantization noise error in M4 channels that is still probably due to encoding problems in the original M2 (yes, all M4 channels are originally from M2 sources), otherwise the only way that that could be possible is if DTV engineers were grossly misapplying the encoding parameters. In my “expert” opinion as an engineer and based on what I see, they most definitely are not. Besides, you don’t spend 400 million on new technology and then fall asleep at the switch implementing it.

5. “Motion smear”, to use your term, is also something that M4 handles significantly better than M2, as it has much more intelligent and sophisticated motion-vector technology embedded in it. Motion artifacting, which is something completely different when the cause is the typical one of bit starving, might be at the root of what you are seeing, although again, DTV engineers have apparently been very careful to match acceptable thresholds closely and carefully to existing M2.


With all of that out of the way, lighting is not a science, it is an art (and a well-respected one), and is therefore based almost entirely on subjective factors such as impressions and perceptions. While anyone who ever earned a communications degree or took Radio and Television 101 learned three-point lighting during the first semester, any physics or technology involved is pretty basic, even in the most sophisticated lighting. Lighting experts eventually become experts because of their artistic ability, not their technical ability or reliance on science and physics. The technical stuff is pretty limited, and unfortunately, so are a lot of the “experts” I’ve met in my experience, even though many of them never realized it.

On the other hand, digital video and delivery is all about physics, and other than encoding and compression, which takes a fair amount of artistic bent to do expertly, is therefore nearly entirely based on objective rather than subjective criteria. This means that the technology is informed by the science, and the end product that you have the ultimate ability to form impressions about is greatly channeled into highly-quantifiable terms and clarified by its very limitations rather than opened up as some sort of fuzzy universe where any impression or viewpoint might be possible. What is and is not possible is highly quantified and measurable.

“Deep and rich” both have no real meaning as comparative measurements unless much more strictly defined, so there is no frame of reference to understand what you might mean by that. Richer might mean more saturation. Or not. Deeper might mean more contrast ratio or different gamma settings. Or not. None of those aspects are inherently different from one encoding algorithm to the other anyway. You might just mean it feels better to look at in some undefined way. Or not. Without defining the terms, both are absolutely meaningless as points of comparison for scientifically-based processes.

A “trained eye” referring to an artist means they have learned how to consciously pay attention to the details that escape the conscious mind of the common man who hasn’t had the time or luxury of doing that. I don’t deny your training. But again, that is still purely subjective. The trained eye of an engineer is different, in that they can also understand the “why” of what they see on top of having learned how to merely pay attention, and weave the two together as real, useful knowledge, giving a much deeper understanding of what is really going on.

So IMHO that puts a trained digital video engineer in a much better position to quantify video objectively than any lighting (or other) artist. An artist simply knows what he likes or dislikes, and has a personally-defined emotional reaction to it. He never has to know exactly why he has the reaction he does, although the real experts usually do. By comparison, an engineer always has to have the discipline to know exactly WHY he knows what he likes or dislikes, so that he can actually accept what he likes, and fix what he doesn’t like. An engineer only likes what works properly or looks correct and only dislikes what doesn’t work properly or looks incorrect. Emotion and personal subjective prejudices can’t enter in. What an engineer “likes” in the arena of digitally-encoded video is only based on how accurate the end product actually is, quantitatively or objectively speaking.

I’m not dissing your profession, or you for that matter. To be a real expert, you also have to know what to fix and what to accept and why, it’s just that from an artistic point of view that is much more subjective and within a technological framework that is comparatively much simpler. Not that there’s not a lot to it, just like there’s a lot to many professions. I’m sure you are very good at what you do. It’s OK not to know why you have certain suspicions about things, but maybe not so OK to assume (or naively broadcast to everyone else) that you think you know why things are the way they are when there is, obviously to those who actually do know, very little chance of that.

Digital encoding is extremely sophisticated and very, very technically deep, and is based largely in objective science. Not “string theory” deep, but a whole Grand Canyon deeper than how, in one’s personal opinion, to adjust a key light for best effect. I am not smart enough to understand more than a fraction of the science, but along with discipline and proper application of the science that’s still enough to qualify me in my profession.

While that doesn’t in any way elevate my worth above anyone else not trained in my profession, I’m sorry, and I could easily be wrong about this, but I would assume it’s a safe bet that I’ve long forgotten more about the science and physics of digital video than any lighting expert will ever know. You should be OK with that. On the other hand, I'd like to think I know lighting fairly well (I know the science well, but probably not as much about the art), but I'm sure someone like yourself could light rings around me. And I'm OK with that.

Bottom line (and sorry again, but here’s the part I predict you’re really not going to like), as a technician I find an artist, no matter how accomplished, implying that he might be able to see how one encoding algorithm is different or better or worse than the other purely by virtue of his subjective emotionally-based impressions of non-empirical comparisons, to be nothing more than completely ludicrous, if not arrogantly disrespectful of the science itself, not to mention the scientists. That’s like George W saying he understands the horror of war, or Paris Hilton saying she understands the plight of the homeless, or even the Mercedes-less. Even more so when to those who have the nose, any potential validation of that implication (as explained in points 1-5 above) also mostly smells like something the neighbor’s dog left on my sidewalk.

[rickmeoff]

Yep, I'm enjoying both of my fast, trouble free, don't need an IQ above 2 to operate, 1TB HR20s and all of the HD programming. :)








looks like you got lucky then.
;)

i saw a poll on the other forum for hr21 owners you might be interested in. i realize you own hr20s, but im sure youve read enough (or 'messed with one in a store') to call yourself an 'owner' and respond to it, lol.

[cowboys2002]

looks like you got lucky then.
;)

i saw a poll on the other forum for hr21 owners you might be interested in. i realize you own hr20s, but im sure youve read enough (or 'messed with one in a store') to call yourself an 'owner' and respond to it, lol.

Yes, the interface is different than the Tivo interface.

Going on 2 weeks with my HDVR HR21, I am quickly learnig the nuances of the devise!

I don't watch much live tv so the lack of DLB (it took me forever to figure out what the heck people were talking about) isn't a big issue.

[milominderbinder]

Wow. Just keep telling yourself that. I still feel the love, but I'm afraid I find that to be one wacky point of view, pardner. “By no means scientific”, indeed.

First of all, general comparisons of MPEG2 channels with MPEG4 channels are only valid if comparing the exact same content on the exact same equipment from the same original source within a similar time frame...Ty, I can only say, Wow.

I chuckled at WM's $25,000 monitor and daily calibrations as well. I used to sell TV calibration gear. I also noticed that his calibrations are being done backwords.

I can't imagine that any studio or production facility could fall for this. If so, I want that account!

- Craig

[cowboys2002]

Who's whining other than the Tivo die-hards?:confused:

Well, you won't lose (for the spell check police :rolleyes: ) it as long as you like SD, and what few OTA HD channels you might get. Bet you still have an 8 track player in use. ;)

Yep, I'm enjoying both of my fast, trouble free, don't need an IQ above 2 to operate, 1TB HR20s and all of the HD programming. :)





Too bad they can't tighten up those loose screws in their heads. ;)

Mark,

I am with you on this one!!

If you want/need/desire the most HD programming from DirecTv , you will at some point need to switch to a HD DVR.

If you MUST have Tivo TODAY and non OTA HD programming, you are deciding to go with cable with or without cablecards.

Either choice (DTV or Cable) requires the end-user to "committ":

1. DTV 2 years on an equipment lease
2. Cable/Tivo monthly or annual plan and cable subscription for greater HD programming.

The latter point is what kills me about all the whining about the 2 year committment with DirecTv. Who in the right mind will spend over $200 on a tivo and NOT pay their fees AND add Cable programming to maximize their investment?

[fizbin]

I called DirecTV today for the first (and hopefully last) time on this upgrade issue. The woman was very nice. Told her that I had an HR10-250 and an older standard def DirecTiVo, and that I understood upgrades were needed. She quickly set up an appointment to upgrade both DVRs and the dish, no charge for hardware or installation. No commitment change either (I’ve been with DirecTV since 1998). While she would not commit to which model I would receive, she did say that any model would allow me to hook up an OTA antenna (I’ll fight that battle after the fact if I am not able to connect an OTA). And it may not matter – she said with the new system I would get local HD stations via DirecTV (I currently get locals via DirecTV on my standard def DirecTiVo). Couldn’t be easier . . .

[milominderbinder]

...While she would not commit to which model I would receive, she did say that any model would allow me to hook up an OTA antenna (I’ll fight that battle after the fact if I am not able to connect an OTA)...They just announced the OTA solution for the HR21:

OTA HD Tuner for the HR21 (price rumored at $59):
DirecTV AM21 - ATSC Tuner Add-On for the HR21 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=115134)

Click through each link in the Ordering Tips (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=839938#post839938). If you have placed your order, you are on step 5. The last few steps are critical. In particular look at the check list you will be asked to sign and confirm everything on line ahead of time.

Also check out the Installation Guide (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=67769). You can control so much. At the very least you will know how to test to make sure the installation and receiver is good before you sign for it.

Here are a couple more links from the HD DVR FAQ (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=76617).

What will I be asked to sign once the installation is complete?
→ Installation Checklist (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1030383#post1030383) ● Agreement (http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPageNR.jsp?assetId=P400042)

Is there an easy way to get started?
→ 5-Minute Quick Start (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1030380#post1030380) ● Undocumented HD DVR PLUS Tips & Tricks (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=747592)

What can help me transition from TiVo? How do I get Suggestions?
→ TiVo Users Survival Guide (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=69404) ● Better Suggestions than TiVo! (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=109588)

Good Luck!

- Craig

[rickmeoff]

Told her that I had an HR10-250 and an older standard def DirecTiVo, and that I understood upgrades were needed.

unless youre going hidef, dont make the mistake of 'upgrading' your sd dtivo to an r15 (sd nds dvr).

[videojanitor]

I chuckled at WM's $25,000 monitor ...

How about this one:

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/DisplayModel?m=10007&p=8&sp=20073&id=89766&navid=master_series_video_monitors
:eek:

[Mark Lopez]

i saw a poll on the other forum for hr21 owners you might be interested in. i realize you own hr20s, but im sure youve read enough (or 'messed with one in a store') to call yourself an 'owner' and respond to it, lol.

No, I didn't see the poll, nor would I have voted in it without first hand use (owned or not) ;) Keep in mind the HR21 is a bit behind in software updates since it is newer. But other than some bugs that need to be worked out, it still has pretty much the same UI. So again, (even without 'messing' with one), I would still say it does not take more intelligence than a rock to figure it out. So far the only time I got even remotely confused was when looking for the OTA signal meter. I expected to find it with the sat tuner meters in the antenna menus, but it is sort of hidden under the 'edit OTA channels' section. But it took all of 5 minutes to ask and get a response (on the non-lemming forum). ;)

[RS4]

No, I didn't see the poll, nor would I have voted in it without first hand use (owned or not) ;) Keep in mind the HR21 is a bit behind in software updates since it is newer. But other than some bugs that need to be worked out, it still has pretty much the same UI. So again, (even without 'messing' with one), I would still say it does not take more intelligence than a rock to figure it out. So far the only time I got even remotely confused was when looking for the OTA signal meter. I expected to find it with the sat tuner meters in the antenna menus, but it is sort of hidden under the 'edit OTA channels' section. But it took all of 5 minutes to ask and get a response (on the non-lemming forum). ;)

I feel sorry for all of the anguish you must feel having to deal with us lemmings. :o I know it must be hard to fathom that someone on a Tivo forum could actually enjoy the Tivo they are using and don't feel the need to rush out to acquire a second-rated dvr put out by another company.:p:p

[Mark Lopez]

I feel sorry for all of the anguish you must feel having to deal with us lemmings. :o I know it must be hard to fathom that someone on a Tivo forum could actually enjoy the Tivo they are using and don't feel the need to rush out to acquire a second-rated dvr put out by another company.:p:p

No anguish at all. I actually enjoy watching the lemming antics. They are so predictable. :) Just like knowing it would not take long for you to chime in with another (baseless) HR2x bash.

[RS4]

No anguish at all. I actually enjoy watching the lemming antics. They are so predictable. :) Just like knowing it would not take long for you to chime in with another (baseless) HR2x bash.

Oops... sorry, bud - here are the references:

Survey 1 - Would your trade HR20 for Tivo?
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=103400

Hmm... let's see that one was almost 55% would trade

Survey 2 - If the HR10-250 TIVO had mpeg4 HD would you prefer it to the HR20-700?
http://www.dbstalk.com/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=2186

Well I'll be... almost another 55% here too

Facts is facts, sorry bud:p:p

[JohnB1000]

I think I would say that 55%ish for a mature product with a strong fan base over a brand new product with some bugs etc is pretty disappointing actually

[RS4]

I think I would say that 55%ish for a mature product with a strong fan base over a brand new product with some bugs etc is pretty disappointing actually


Yeah... it sure doesn't say much for the 'new and improved' that a lot of folks naturally assumed they were getting does it?:cool: Plus of course, we all know that dvr's are not Directs business, so I would imagine it will only take a couple more years before it does what it's supposed to... no use rushing things huh? Heck, who knows, maybe one of these days you might actually be able to tell it what channels you get, and maybe just do recordings from those? :p

[shibby191]

So I guess the fact that DirecTV has signed up double the number of HD subs 4th quarter 2007 as compared to 4th quarter 2006 and that HD DVR sub growth is huge means nothing. :D Also sub growth in general continues to increase while churn goes down. Thus people are staying despite those first R15 subs being out of their commitments. They aren't screaming for the hills "oh my lord where is a Tivo, I can't live without a Tivo, get me out of this DirecTV thing!"

DirecTV has the pedal to the metal and leaving Tivo at the side of the road. Once you get that thru your head and just go to cable with a series 3 (a viable option) the happier you'll be. ;)

[sjberra]

Oops... sorry, bud - here are the references:

Survey 1 - Would your trade HR20 for Tivo?
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=103400

Hmm... let's see that one was almost 55% would trade

Survey 2 - If the HR10-250 TIVO had mpeg4 HD would you prefer it to the HR20-700?
http://www.dbstalk.com/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=2186

Well I'll be... almost another 55% here too

Facts is facts, sorry bud:p:p

Missed one

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=371652&highlight=Poll%3A

[fasTLane]

DirecTV has the pedal to the metal and leaving Tivo at the side of the road. Once you get that thru your head and just go to cable with a series 3 (a viable option) the happier you'll be. ;)Ha. This DirecTivo is still working fine and pulls in more HD than I care to watch. Nothing like ota PBS-HD.
:p

[HazelW]

So I guess the fact that DirecTV has signed up double the number of HD subs 4th quarter 2007 as compared to 4th quarter 2006 and that HD DVR sub growth is huge means nothing. :D Also sub growth in general continues to increase while churn goes down. Thus people are staying despite those first R15 subs being out of their commitments. They aren't screaming for the hills "oh my lord where is a Tivo, I can't live without a Tivo, get me out of this DirecTV thing!"

DirecTV has the pedal to the metal and leaving Tivo at the side of the road. Once you get that thru your head and just go to cable with a series 3 (a viable option) the happier you'll be. ;)

I believe that directv has peaked. In my neighborhood which has Verizon FIOS, the dishes are coming down and people are buying HD TiVos. Comcast is offering 1000 HD movies on demand and claims to have more actual HD content that directv. Cable is not going to sit by and let directv win the war. The people staying with directv either are in neighborhoods where cable is not available or can't give up sunday ticket or ather sports packages.

[bigpuma]

I believe that directv has peaked. In my neighborhood which has Verizon FIOS, the dishes are coming down and people are buying HD TiVos. Comcast is offering 1000 HD movies on demand and claims to have more actual HD content that directv. Cable is not going to sit by and let directv win the war. The people staying with directv either are in neighborhoods where cable is not available or can't give up sunday ticket or ather sports packages.

Which is great for all of us consumers. More competition means more HD and cheaper prices. Unfortunately FIOS is only available in very limited markets and most cable companies are slow to bring in more HD. In my area we don't have FIOS and our cable company (Charter) just recently started offering HD within the past few months.

Not directed at you Hazelw: I don't understand why people get into such pissing matches about their content providers. More content providers = better for us consumers. Personally I am very happy with my HR20s and DirecTV and the content they provide. For me there really isn't anywhere I would want to go but YMMV.

[madbeachcat]

I believe that directv has peaked. In my neighborhood which has Verizon FIOS, the dishes are coming down and people are buying HD TiVos. Comcast is offering 1000 HD movies on demand and claims to have more actual HD content that directv. Cable is not going to sit by and let directv win the war. The people staying with directv either are in neighborhoods where cable is not available or can't give up sunday ticket or ather sports packages.

Not true. I am not a big sports fan and cable is availible to me. But I'm still with DirecTv, and will be staying. Cable sucks, From what I have seen, and I will will not be robbed by the cable providers anymore.

By the way, having moved around a lot in my life, I have had Time Warner, Brighthouse, Comcast, and Cableone. So I am not basing my opinion on a small sample.

[sjberra]

I believe that directv has peaked. In my neighborhood which has Verizon FIOS, the dishes are coming down and people are buying HD TiVos. Comcast is offering 1000 HD movies on demand and claims to have more actual HD content that directv. Cable is not going to sit by and let directv win the war. The people staying with directv either are in neighborhoods where cable is not available or can't give up sunday ticket or ather sports packages.

FIOs is limited market share, a lot of the country does not have verizion as a viable phone cimpany

AT&T Uverse is thier version of it, again limited connections, just rolling out, limited to a single DVR on the system

Cable is the last choice in most cases, I have been with Directv for since the 90's, I detest sports and would not have any of their packages added to my account if they where given to me and my descendants free for the next 10 centuries.

The only dealing I have with a my cable provider is for internet access for the simple reason they are the only reliable (and I use the term very loosely) internet connection over 1 MB.

When and if Uverse comes in(maybe next year in my neighborhood) I will jump over to that internet connection via Uverse in a New York minute. Unless they give me the ability to add DVRS (I have 4 HD units, 3 Hr2X, 1 HR1X and 1 SD unit) or a whole house solution with 3-4 TB's to cover all 4 units, I will not be accepting their version of digital TV at all. My HR2X units have 1TB of estata drive space on them.

[newsposter]

AT&T Uverse is thier version of it, again limited connections, just rolling out, limited to a single DVR on the system



i never knew that..how terrible...why cant you have more than one? isnt it per box fee you pay? I am up to 3 dvrs now...never could get by with just one. I wonder how many people get this installed not knowing only 1dvr

[sjberra]

i never knew that..how terrible...why cant you have more than one? isnt it per box fee you pay? I am up to 3 dvrs now...never could get by with just one. I wonder how many people get this installed not knowing only 1dvr

No idea why, the sales weasel was not able to give me the reasoning behind it either

[RS4]

i never knew that..how terrible...why cant you have more than one? isnt it per box fee you pay? I am up to 3 dvrs now...never could get by with just one. I wonder how many people get this installed not knowing only 1dvr

I'm not sure about the dvr limit, but I was surprised that the pipeline coming in is only 22 meg, and that they are only allocating enough bandwidth for one HD channel which is a huge limitation in my estimation. What good would all of those lovely dvrs be if we could only record one HD video at a time?:confused: The last I read about a month ago says AT&T has no intentions at the moment of making the home connection run any faster.

[milominderbinder]

I believe that directv has peaked...people are buying HD TiVos...That would mean that DIRECTV installers are sitting around wishing someone would call, right? DIRECTV would be losing subscribers at an alarming rate, right? And TiVo's subscriber base would be exploding?

There are a lot of installers, especially at DBStalk. I will post a poll to see if that is true and get back to you. (I suspect it will be just the opposite. They keep telling us that they are working 7 days a week and can't keep up.)

Here are the latest DIRECTV Earnings Report (http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=127160&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1074020&highlight=) compared to TiVo (http://investor.tivo.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-07-254939).

Summary of DIRECTV and TiVo results:
DIRECTV 07 Q3 07 Q2 07 Q1 06 Q4 06 Q3 06 Q2
Net adds 240 128 235 275 165 125
Tot Subs 16,556 16,316 16,188 15,953 15,678 15,513

TiVo Subs 1,712 1,708 1,727 1,726 1,625 1,572
DirecTiVo 2,355 2,489 2,615 2,718 2,809 2,846
DTiVo Adds -134 -126 -103 -91 -37 -29
Total Subs 4,067 4,197 4,342 4,444 4,434 4,418
Total Adds -130 -145 -102 10 16 1

TiVo posted a net loss of 130,000 subscribers for the quarter as DIRECTV posted a net gain of 240,000 subscribers.

In the past 12 months, TiVo has lost 367,000 subscribers while DIRECTV has added 878,000 subscribers.

Can I ask where you are getting your data?

- Craig

[Adam1115]

Mark,

I am with you on this one!!

If you want/need/desire the most HD programming from DirecTv , you will at some point need to switch to a HD DVR.

If you MUST have Tivo TODAY and non OTA HD programming, you are deciding to go with cable with or without cablecards.

Either choice (DTV or Cable) requires the end-user to "committ":

1. DTV 2 years on an equipment lease
2. Cable/Tivo monthly or annual plan and cable subscription for greater HD programming.

The latter point is what kills me about all the whining about the 2 year committment with DirecTv. Who in the right mind will spend over $200 on a tivo and NOT pay their fees AND add Cable programming to maximize their investment?

No kidding. I'm in a 3 year commitment with TiVo and already Comcast is moving to SDV and introducing "thousands of HD channels" via on-demand which my TiVo won't get.

[HazelW]

With most cable companies you have at least 30 days to cancel if you don't like it. But to get better pricing you may want to commit to 1-3 years. With TiVo same story. You can go month to month but to get better pricing, you need to sign up for a year or more.

With Directv you get no trial period. If you don't like it you lose your up fron payment for the equipment and pay them $20 a month for two years at least. And when you do quit you send the box back. With TiVo you can always sell the box if you quit.

[HazelW]

That would mean that DIRECTV installers are sitting around wishing someone would call, right? DIRECTV would be losing subscribers at an alarming rate, right? And TiVo's subscriber base would be exploding?

There are a lot of installers, especially at DBStalk. I will post a poll to see if that is true and get back to you. (I suspect it will be just the opposite. They keep telling us that they are working 7 days a week and can't keep up.)

Here are the latest DIRECTV Earnings Report (http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=127160&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1074020&highlight=) compared to TiVo (http://investor.tivo.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-07-254939).

Summary of DIRECTV and TiVo results:
DIRECTV 07 Q3 07 Q2 07 Q1 06 Q4 06 Q3 06 Q2
Net adds 240 128 235 275 165 125
Tot Subs 16,556 16,316 16,188 15,953 15,678 15,513

TiVo Subs 1,712 1,708 1,727 1,726 1,625 1,572
DirecTiVo 2,355 2,489 2,615 2,718 2,809 2,846
DTiVo Adds -134 -126 -103 -91 -37 -29
Total Subs 4,067 4,197 4,342 4,444 4,434 4,418
Total Adds -130 -145 -102 10 16 1

TiVo posted a net loss of 130,000 subscribers for the quarter as DIRECTV posted a net gain of 240,000 subscribers.

In the past 12 months, TiVo has lost 367,000 subscribers while DIRECTV has added 878,000 subscribers.

Can I ask where you are getting your data?

- Craig

Well the first installer that replied to your poll said many in his area are not working full weeks and things are slow. And I have not data, just a guess that we are seeing the peak in D* subscribers.

[Cudahy]

I'm encouraged to read that there are still 2,355,000 DirecTivo subscribers. It looks like there will still be well over 2 million at the end of this year even if the current decline continues. There's still plenty of time for Tivo and Directv to recognize that it would be in there own self interest to provide an alternative.
I suspect the holdup is that Tivo still doesn't want to accept that subscribers would have to pay more per month for an HD Directivo than a DirectTV DVR. That limits Tivo's percentage of the pie but the longer they hold out the less significant that becomes.

[JohnB1000]

Those numbers are good but consider that people like me own 4 DirectTivo's and 2 DirecTV DVR's If Tivo's went away I would happily switch over but I see no reason to get rid of them for no reason.

[shibby191]

I'm encouraged to read that there are still 2,355,000 DirecTivo subscribers. It looks like there will still be well over 2 million at the end of this year even if the current decline continues. There's still plenty of time for Tivo and Directv to recognize that it would be in there own self interest to provide an alternative.
I suspect the holdup is that Tivo still doesn't want to accept that subscribers would have to pay more per month for an HD Directivo than a DirectTV DVR. That limits Tivo's percentage of the pie but the longer they hold out the less significant that becomes.

95% of those 2.355 million are SD DirecTivo's of which there is no compelling reason at all to upgrade to the R15 unless the DirecTivo dies and you don't want to get another one on e-Bay. So the numbers slowly decline as customers churn out or the units die. Just like Ultimate TV DVRs which haven't been sold for over 5 years but are still active and working just fine on DirecTv's system.

DirecTV has no incentive to "convert" the SD DirecTivo's out. There is no swap program for that and never has been. The swaps are solely on the HD side and there are very few HR10's left.

[Mark Lopez]

Oops... sorry, bud - here are the references:

Survey 1 - Would your trade HR20 for Tivo?
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=103400

Hmm... let's see that one was almost 55% would trade
Facts is facts, sorry bud:p:p

People don't like change. The poll does not ask which is better only if they would like a Tivo if given a choice. I would probably vote for a Tivo unit too (assuming they actually built one that is not slow as snails like the HR10) as I am (was) used to it. However, I find the HR20 to be just fine, and in many ways much better then the HR10.

As for 'facts are facts', - Tivo is history as far as DirecTV is concerned. So yes, facts are facts. So, 'sorry bud' right back at you - enjoy your SD. :)

[incog-neato]

The guy who did my install (48hrs after I placed the order) said that he is jam packed busy but 90% of his jobs are the free (or close to free) upgrades and not new customers. They're losing their arses on the free deals giving away all this equipment (receivers, dishes, switches & installer costs).

That would mean that DIRECTV installers are sitting around wishing someone would call, right? DIRECTV would be losing subscribers at an alarming rate, right? And TiVo's subscriber base would be exploding?

There are a lot of installers, especially at DBStalk. I will post a poll to see if that is true and get back to you. (I suspect it will be just the opposite. They keep telling us that they are working 7 days a week and can't keep up.)

Here are the latest DIRECTV Earnings Report (http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=127160&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1074020&highlight=) compared to TiVo (http://investor.tivo.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-07-254939).

Summary of DIRECTV and TiVo results:
DIRECTV 07 Q3 07 Q2 07 Q1 06 Q4 06 Q3 06 Q2
Net adds 240 128 235 275 165 125
Tot Subs 16,556 16,316 16,188 15,953 15,678 15,513

TiVo Subs 1,712 1,708 1,727 1,726 1,625 1,572
DirecTiVo 2,355 2,489 2,615 2,718 2,809 2,846
DTiVo Adds -134 -126 -103 -91 -37 -29
Total Subs 4,067 4,197 4,342 4,444 4,434 4,418
Total Adds -130 -145 -102 10 16 1

TiVo posted a net loss of 130,000 subscribers for the quarter as DIRECTV posted a net gain of 240,000 subscribers.

In the past 12 months, TiVo has lost 367,000 subscribers while DIRECTV has added 878,000 subscribers.

Can I ask where you are getting your data?

- Craig

[sjberra]

The guy who did my install (48hrs after I placed the order) said that he is jam packed busy but 90% of his jobs are the free (or close to free) upgrades and not new customers. They're losing their arses on the free deals giving away all this equipment (receivers, dishes, switches & installer costs).

I doubt they are "losing their asses" on the free deals, they maybe taking a short term loss for the installation and equipment, but it will be more then made up over the term of the contract and the in most cases the additional revenue generated for the special sports packages that will require the new MPEG4 DVR's

[incog-neato]

Special sports packages (NFLST, MLB) WILL NOT require MPEG 4 unless you want the HD portions of them. That's a big difference from the way your statement reads. It sounds like you won't be able to get NFLST at all unless you have MPEG4. You are correct though in that without the MPEG4 you won't be able to spend the extra $100 to get NFLST in HD which most people with HD probably don't do anyway since most of the regional games are in HD on the local networks. Or they'll get the HD portion for free which means there won't be additional revenue generated. It "cost" them close to $400 each time they sent out a tech with a dish, dvr and installation. But the fact they still own the equipment it remains an asset. You can be sure it's hurting them giving away all this free hardware, labor and programming due to their MPEG4 switchover. I doubt they are "losing their asses" on the free deals, they maybe taking a short term loss for the installation and equipment, but it will be more then made up over the term of the contract and the in most cases the additional revenue generated for the special sports packages that will require the new MPEG4 DVR's

[shibby191]

You can be sure it's hurting them giving away all this free hardware, labor and programming due to their MPEG4 switchover.

Sure it is. That's why there is a 2 year commitment to programming which recoups those costs. And cable will usually buy a user out of what's left on their commitment so even if the customer leaves and isn't out any money personally, DirecTV still recoups it's costs for that free install one way or another.

It all balances out for DirecTV in the end, they aren't a charity. ;)

[incog-neato]

It's SUPPOSED to balance out ..... just like it was in the mortgage industry or the hundreds of other companies who take huge hits when things don't go as planned. Only time will tell. It's all speculation now.Sure it is. That's why there is a 2 year commitment to programming which recoups those costs. And cable will usually buy a user out of what's left on their commitment so even if the customer leaves and isn't out any money personally, DirecTV still recoups it's costs for that free install one way or another.

It all balances out for DirecTV in the end, they aren't a charity. ;)

[rickmeoff]

I doubt they are "losing their asses" on the free deals, they maybe taking a short term loss for the installation and equipment, but it will be more then made up over the term of the contract and the in most cases the additional revenue generated for the special sports packages that will require the new MPEG4 DVR's


thats not at all what he said.

he said 'losing their arses.'

[shibby191]

It's SUPPOSED to balance out ..... just like it was in the mortgage industry or the hundreds of other companies who take huge hits when things don't go as planned. Only time will tell. It's all speculation now.

Well, if the unit costs $400 to make and it costs you $480 to leave day one on top of the couple hundred you payed up front I'd say they are balancing out on most subs even if they leave. ;)

[incog-neato]

Right On Dude! :up:Well, if the unit costs $400 to make and it costs you $480 to leave day one on top of the couple hundred you payed up front I'd say they are balancing out on most subs even if they leave. ;)

[Mark Lopez]

I believe that directv has peaked. In my neighborhood which has Verizon FIOS, the dishes are coming down and people are buying HD TiVos.

Do you realize how much of the country is still rural? And how many people are moving out of the cities where FIOS is not (and may never be) available? For every dish that comes down two probably go up.

People were saying the same thing about satellite Internet 2 years ago when I signed up for WildBlue. And since then they have filled the initial satellite, launched another one, and some of those beams are already nearly full.

Oh, and lets not forget about satellite radio and all of the people claiming 'I won't pay for radio, and it will surely fail'.

[Adam1115]

I believe that directv has peaked. In my neighborhood which has Verizon FIOS, the dishes are coming down and people are buying HD TiVos. Comcast is offering 1000 HD movies on demand and claims to have more actual HD content that directv. Cable is not going to sit by and let directv win the war. The people staying with directv either are in neighborhoods where cable is not available or can't give up sunday ticket or ather sports packages.

Comcast is offering 1000 HD movies on demand that will only work on their crappy STB's.

Cable has sat by and let DirecTV win the war for 10 years. I tried to get cablecards from comcast for my Series 3, sorry, I don't have the time an energy to spend TRYING to give them my money when it's clear they don't want my business. Two days off I took from work and both times they show up without cablecards. Wouldn't offer anything for my trouble.

[newsposter]

hmmm it's not early 2008 but it appears at least the 2008 part was right :)