Upscaling TIVO output - can it be done ?

[ghstone]

Hi, I have a few TIVO's hooked up to dedicated Satellite Recievers and viewed on a HD ready 40" TV - 1080p I think.

Now, my satellite receivers aren't HD, and neither of course are my TIVOs but I see that some DVD players now include 'upscaling'. So would there be any advantage to upscaling the image from the TIVO in a similar way, is this even possible perhaps using some add-on box, and if so does anyone have any recommendations ?

Thanks,

Graham

some TIVOs, satellite receivers and a TV %^)

[Ian_m]

http://www.lumagen.com/

http://www.pixelmagicsystems.com/index.htm

http://www.convergent-av.co.uk/

I have seen and played with a Lumagen scaler with Sky source into a Sony HD panel and it is stunning, as the Sony panel is basically crap at scaling SD stuff to HD.

Mind you saw a Sony HD LCD panel next to a Panasonic HD plasma panel at the weekend fed from a HD source and it seeing both next to each other with same source just makes you realise how smeary LCD is and how the LCD blacks are in fact gray !!!:D

[blindlemon]

Don't forget to enable Mode 0 on your TiVos as well.... :)

[ghstone]

Thanks for those links Ian, I'll take a look.

And thanks Blindlemon ofr the Mode 0 tip - I think I enabled mode 0 when I upgraded to 250gb drives, but it was a while ago and I still don't have the cache cards in, as I haven't got around to buying the memory for them.

Hopefully I'll get some spare time over Christmas to review things and make sure everything is up to date.

Graham

[ghstone]

Hmm, I've checked out the Lumagen and Pixelmagic systems -the specs look great, just the small matter of price ! not sure I can justify spending £975...

So, I started looking at HD Satellite receivers, as this would have the benefit of getting me Free-To-Air HD transmissions when they start from the BBC, ITV and C4 next year. These also feature Upscaling, but it's not clear to me whether they will upscale an external source - ie. can I loop the TIVO back into the AUX input of the box and have it do the processing for me ?

I can get one fo these receivers for around £70 on ebay from a store in Germany - DVB SHOP - I've mailed them the question, hopefully their English is better than my non existant German !

Graham

[Ian_m]

How my company (and me) got involved with with LCD and plasma panels is that we sell embedded PC boards and systems.

We had a customer who had developed an advertising display panel product, like the ones you see then above the aisles in Tesco's/Sainsbury's. They were using a 32" standard definition LCD panel and one of our embedded boards, designed to undercut the price of the industry standard Panasonic and Pioneer (and Sony when they did plasma) advertising products.

However as they were about to launch their LCD panel supplier discontinued their standard definition products and produced only high def (actually 1366 x 768) products with a hefty price rise as well. Well they took the cost hit and used the Hi-Def LCD panels, as they had already accepted a large number of pre-orders. They purchased the panels before trying....bad move...

When they connected it all up the picture was all smeary and not good, in fact their end user customer rejected it as unacceptable and was prepared to cancel and go back to the more expensive industry standard of Panasonic/Pioneer plasmas.

All the kit came to me (+ a large payment) to see what could be done. We tried lots of panels, surprise surprise standard definition Panasonic/Pioneer gave best results, with standard def LCD not far behind, but with usual LCD defects. We used Lord of the Rings to test, great being paid to watch films....

Hi Def plasma panels playing standard definition were acceptable, but cost too much and Hi Def LCD's were certainly not acceptable with standard definition source, verifying why the end user customer had rejected them.

One solution we looked at was using a scaler (lumagen), which did produce significant picture quality enhancements on the LCD (still smeary on movement though) but at a cost point was too high (£700). Looked at scaling in software on embedded PC board, which yes gave great picture enhancements, but required more powerful board (+ associated power and cooling issues) and greater storage requirements (used hi-def MPEG 2) and greater cost.

Eventually they took all their kit back and I am not really sure what happened, but our local Tesco's still has Panasonic plasmas as their displays.....

[martink0646]

So, I started looking at HD Satellite receivers, as this would have the benefit of getting me Free-To-Air HD transmissions when they start from the BBC, ITV and C4 next year. These also feature Upscaling, but it's not clear to me whether they will upscale an external source - ie. can I loop the TIVO back into the AUX input of the box and have it do the processing for me ?

I can get one fo these receivers for around £70 on ebay from a store in Germany - DVB SHOP - I've mailed them the question, hopefully their English is better than my non existant German !

Graham

Hi,

I bought a Pace DS810XE STB for £67.00 from ebay as a present for myself & the HD pictures are stunning & highly recommended. Apparently, if you are really into Satellite technology & want to hook them up to motorised dishes, use CAM's & stuff like that then it is not that good. But as purely a source for BBC HD then it is great. As far as upscaling is concerned, its a no go I'm afraid (AFAIK). I have done a lot of forum surfing & there are no mentions of it. It certainly doesn't upscale SD sat images, even when viewed through HDMI which is the only way I have it connected to my HD Plasma.

I do however find it hard to watch it. This is because I never watch live TV after having TiVo for 7 years. I plan out my HD viewing & then miss it because I'm so used to TiVo recording it for me. If this is a glimpse of life without TiVO/PVR (shudder) then it's not a glimpse I like.:eek::mad::D

One other point to think about; I'm not sure that when the BBC, CH4 & 5 launch their HD channels on satellite next year that current HD receivers will be compatible with the broadcast system. I bought it knowing that as it was only £67.00 & if it is compatible I will see that as a bonus. maybe an expert like Sneals2000could respond & let us know.

Martin

NB - If it's one of these Pace Boxes you are after, PM me & I will give you details of a UK supplier who delivers next day for £67 + £10pp

[Pete77]

Hi Def plasma panels playing standard definition were acceptable, but cost too much and Hi Def LCD's were certainly not acceptable with standard definition source, verifying why the end user customer had rejected them.

I wonder what TCM will have to say about this point of view as a died in the wool defender of LCDs being just as good with SD pictures.

[Ian_m]

I wonder what TCM will have to say about this point of view as a died in the wool defender of LCDs being just as good with SD pictures.
I think the issue was not the LCD display technology but the scaler built into the LCD panel was poor, which is why we got a much better display using a Lumagen scaler as well as when using an embedded board with Hi Def output.

Though with the LCD watching people with beards (very common in Lord of the Rings) via Lumagan scaler, the beards just blurred into one colour smudge during movement on LCD but maintained beard like appearence on a plasma screens. On still frame both pictures were similar, except Plasma can display black as opposed to LCD dark grey. Anyway not very scientific but just my observations and experimentation.

[Pete77]

I think the issue was not the LCD display technology but the scaler built into the LCD panel was poor, which is why we got a much better display using a Lumagen scaler as well as when using an embedded board with Hi Def output.

I think the claim of TCM and some others is that Sony Bravia LCDs are the one brand of LCD with a much higher quality of built in scaler and hence have less issues with SD broadcasts than other LCD brands.

Presumably for some reason it is easier to design scaling technology at a more cost effective price on a Plasma tv screen.

[Ian_m]

I think the claim of TCM and some others is that Sony Bravia LCDs are the one brand of LCD with a much higher quality of built in scaler and hence have less issues with SD broadcasts than other LCD brands.

Presumably for some reason it is easier to design scaling technology at a more cost effective price on a Plasma tv screen.It certainly wasn't a Sony Bravia TV I played with. The Sony panel we viewed I think it had a Philips scaler in which at the time was not one of the best.

I think the issue here is its not so much the display technology its the quality of the scalers users and may be cheap scalers produce a better picture on Plasma's.

Unfortunately all we have left from this investigation is a HD LG panel, which my boss took home and a standard def Panasonic 42" plasma, so can't repeat picture quality messing about. My original task was to investigate getting an acceptable picture on the hi def LCD, but in doing so had to compare against other scalers and use of plasmas.

[TCM2007]

I think the claim of TCM and some others is that Sony Bravia LCDs are the one brand of LCD with a much higher quality of built in scaler and hence have less issues with SD broadcasts than other LCD brands.
.

I have never said anything about the quality or otherwise of Barvia TVs to my recollection.

You must have been arguing with someone else.

What I have said, and stand by, is that there is no inherent technology reason for a 1280 x 768 LCD to be any better or worse at SD than a 1280 x 768 plasma.

The plasma will be the better TV, because its a plasma, but plasmas are not "better at SD" than LCDs, all other things being equal.

[johnnye]

Why does it always have to be an anti-TCM barb? Please stop this childish baiting.

As one of those who has a Sony Bravia, and has recommended it in reply to a recent post, I can only say that in my experience it performs well upscaling from Tivo SD to HD, but I am not an expert in these things and speak from only limited experience. I also find the blacks to be black (whereas on my Dell 24inch LCD monitor they are certainly dark grey), but I have never owned a plasma so can't really compare them.

Personally, I have always been a bit dubious of plasmas because of their quoted high power usage, but that fallacy was exposed by another response to the same thread on LCDs (by Andy Leitch) which was very interesting and certainly something I hadn't realized before:

Over the lifetime usage of the set, LCD's actually use more power than plasma's...due to the backlight always being on, whereas a plasma can put pixels into a low charge state or even turn them off completely...thus saving energy.

The LCD wattage figure is what the panel is consuming *all* the time, a plasma wattage figure is the maximum the panel will use whilst dispalying a white screen, (the most power hungry state for a plasma), in normal everyday use the wattage figure is much, much lower. And even lower again when using the energy-saving feature.

However, most people don't do their research properly and just look at the wattage consumption figures and don't look at the bigger picture...(no pun intended).

EDIT: And if you have a Philips Ambilight LCD, they're even *more* power hungry.

[cyril]

If you want a decent scaler and processor built in to a panel, I would recommend the Fujitsu xha58EBb or the Aviamo.

The quality of other manufacturers SD scaling is in general not as good as these panels. They are a step above Pioneer and Panasonic and well beyond Sony.

I personally prefer having the scaling and processing built into the panel than adding an external scaler to a lesser panel. This allows you to add an external scaler later if required. If you bought a lesser panel like the Pioneers or Panasonics and an external scaler you would have to upgrade the panel (to a Fujitsu,B&O , Runco or Vidikron) which is in general a lot more hassle and costly than just upgrading or adding the external scaler.

Having said that, Pioneer and Panasonic are currently the best value plasmas at the moment if cost is an issue.

[Pete77]

This CNet report probably suggests there isn't that much difference between Plasmas and LCDs for models of the same screen size. That is if you look at their tables of the individual tvs with power consumption rather than their headline average figure which seems to ignore that the average size of the Plasma sets they were reviewing was much larger (and therefore more power hungry) than the LCDs in their survey.

The majority of models of a particular screen size seem to consumer similar amounts but there is the odd model of that screen size that consumes hugely more than others.

It is notable that there is little consistency and that some Panasonic Plasmas seem to be power hungry monster while others are comparatively frugal.

See http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6475_7-6400401-2.html

[TCM2007]

The data table includes a per-square-inch rating, which as you say doesn't show much difference between LCD and plasmas. Rear projection is best it seems - yay, I'm saving the environment!

[Pete77]

Rear projection is best it seems - yay, I'm saving the environment!

I never felt I could live with the dullness of a rear projection picture compared to a CRT, LCD or Plasma set. Do you mean to say that is what you yourself have and not a nice shiny Sony LCD model?

I'm moving closer to the replacement of my current tv but I think its may be another 6 to 12 months away. The availability of a large amount of FTA HD output is eventually likely to sway my decision.

[TCM2007]

I never felt I could live with the dullness of a rear projection picture compared to a CRT, LCD or Plasma set. Do you mean to say that is what you yourself have and not a nice shiny Sony LCD model?

I'm moving closer to the replacement of my current tv but I think its may be another 6 to 12 months away. The availability of a large amount of FTA HD output is eventually likely to sway my decision.


Nothing dull about a current RPTV, I'm guessing you haven't seen a properly set up modern DLP set. In it's default settings it's so bright it hurts my eyes! Contrast ratios are higher than LCD (no backlight making the deepest back a dark grey)

I wouldn't choose a Sony TV myself.

[Pete77]

I wouldn't choose a Sony TV myself.

What set do you have then out of interest.

Perhaps you may already have told us somewhere previously?

[TCM2007]

My main TV is a 56-inch Sagem DLP.

[Pete77]

My main TV is a 56-inch Sagem DLP.

I didn't think Sagem were normally reknowned for being the highest quality make? Is this the exception that proves the rule?

[terryeden]

I use XMBC to upscale the picture to 720p (or 1080i if I wanted). Streaming from the TiVo using ccxstream - or whatever you prefer - has the advantage of one less DAD conversion.

[Sneals2000]

I use XMBC to upscale the picture to 720p (or 1080i if I wanted). Streaming from the TiVo using ccxstream - or whatever you prefer - has the advantage of one less DAD conversion.

Doesn't XBMC still fail to properly de-interlace 576/50i stuff to 50p, instead converting it to 25p? This is fine for movies, and drama with 25p motion, but kills stuff shot in 50i. My understanding was that the XBox wasn't powerful enough to do a decent 50i to 50p conversion?

[TCM2007]

I didn't think Sagem were normally reknowned for being the highest quality make? Is this the exception that proves the rule?

I'm not bothered about "renownedness"; this particular TV got 5-star reviews across the board. It's no longer made, but at the time the combination of size, quality and price was best for me.

[Pete77]

I'm not bothered about "renownedness"; this particular TV got 5-star reviews across the board. It's no longer made, but at the time the combination of size, quality and price was best for me.

I guess with a brand like Sagem it all depends what is the spec and which factory in the Far East they use to build it.

[TCM2007]

DLP technology is all pretty much of a muchness - it's a Texas Instruments chipset.

Sagem only really imports its cheap STBs here, but in its native France it's a more upmarket brand.