HD TiVo in Native mode switches format too often

[johnf@home]

Apparently the HD Tivo in "Native" mode will always try to create video screens in 720p resolution. This causes my (1080p-capable) TV to switch resolution to 720p if I push the "TiVo" button on the remote, no matter what the original resolution is for whatever I happen to be watching. This change is not seamless (it can sometimes take a quarter of a second or so).

Wouldn't it be more sensible for the TiVo to keep the output format the same when switching to displaying internally-generated data? The hardware is obviously capable of this, and all the menus, etc. work at any resolution. These gratuitous resolution changes don't serve any real purpose.

Switching to a fixed output format isn't really a good solution; it will degrade the signal for anything except the format that matches the chosen value. If the TiVo offered 1080p I'd pick that, but it isn't an option.

[MScottC]

Just out of curiousity. Have you tried running your TiVo in 1080iFixed (or 720pFIXED if that is the resolution of the TV) ??? Can YOU really see a difference? Your set is a fixed resolution and either the TV or the TiVo has to re-scale the image, so why not let the TiVo do the job. I really challenge you to tell me the difference between the two devices' scalers. I personally prefer the seamless transitions I get when using "fixed" and IF there is a difference in quality for a percentage of the channels, between the two methods, I'd take that alleged quality hit just to get the seamless transitions

YMMV

[rainwater]

Just out of curiousity. Have you tried running your TiVo in 1080iFixed (or 720pFIXED if that is the resolution of the TV) ??? Can YOU really see a difference? Your set is a fixed resolution and either the TV or the TiVo has to re-scale the image, so why not let the TiVo do the job. I really challenge you to tell me the difference between the two devices' scalers. I personally prefer the seamless transitions I get when using "fixed" and IF there is a difference in quality for a percentage of the channels, between the two methods, I'd take that alleged quality hit just to get the seamless transitions

YMMV

That might all be true if the TiVo could scale the video to the OP's native resolution (1080p). But it can't do that. I really wish TiVo could add a way to set the resolution of the TiVo menu. This would fix a lot of the switching issues people have.

[MikeyB]

I just hate how Fox seems to broadcast shows in 1080i and some commercials (during a 1080i show, i.e. "House") in 720p. This causes my TV to go nuts and fast-forwarding is a pain with the signal (resolution) transitions. I prefer to use the scaler in my Sharp 1080p LCD so I just have to live with it.

[jrm01]

All Fox broadcasts are in 720p.

[sommerfeld]

Switching to a fixed output format isn't really a good solution; it will degrade the signal for anything except the format that matches the chosen value. If the TiVo offered 1080p I'd pick that, but it isn't an option.
I leave my tivo locked at 1080i output specifically because it's not particularly agile when the input changes formats. I don't think I'm missing anything. Maybe my TV has only an average picture scaler, and maybe I don't know what to look for, but I don't see a meaningful difference in picture quality between 480i upscaled to 1080i by the tivo, and 480i as displayed by the TV. The same goes for 720p. This is on a 42" LCD rear projector.

[ZXTT95]

I have the same concern and feature request as the OP: the TiVo should use the current display resolution to display the menus. I don't want to choose a fixed output because I don't want the TiVo converting 720p to 1080i when I have a 1080p TV. I don't think it's the same for the conversion to be 720p->1080i->1080p (TiVo scaling) vs 720p->1080p (TV scaling).

[MScottC]

I've just got to laugh... if you can see a difference in scaling 1080i to 1080p then you've got better eyes then any human. There is no resolution difference. Its the same number of pixels... its just how they are transmitted. 1080i sends half the lines in one pass and the rest in a second pass, 1080p sends all the lines in 1 pass. Again... I challenge you to tell me you really see a difference. And if you do, is it really worth the other headaches you are having?

[Brainiac 5]

I don't use the fixed output resolution because I just don't like the idea of scaling twice, once in the TiVo to (for instance) 1080i and then again in the TV to the TV's resolution. So, I put up with the resolution switching...

One thing that would help is just having more flexibility in general concerning output modes. I'd like to have the TiVo scale 480i/480p but pass 720p and 1080i through unchanged. That would eliminate at least some resolution switching.

[rainwater]

I've just got to laugh... if you can see a difference in scaling 1080i to 1080p then you've got better eyes then any human. There is no resolution difference. Its the same number of pixels... its just how they are transmitted. 1080i sends half the lines in one pass and the rest in a second pass, 1080p sends all the lines in 1 pass. Again... I challenge you to tell me you really see a difference. And if you do, is it really worth the other headaches you are having?

It isn't about 1080i vs 1080p. It is about the scaler on a 1080p set is generally very good. But if you set the TiVo to fixed mode, you do not see this benefit.

[Tidal_Wave_One]

From what I've read, a 1080i signal is just as good as a 1080p signal when properly processed.

[bkdtv]

Apparently the HD Tivo in "Native" mode will always try to create video screens in 720p resolution. This causes my (1080p-capable) TV to switch resolution to 720p if I push the "TiVo" button on the remote, no matter what the original resolution is for whatever I happen to be watching. This change is not seamless (it can sometimes take a quarter of a second or so).

Wouldn't it be more sensible for the TiVo to keep the output format the same when switching to displaying internally-generated data? The hardware is obviously capable of this, and all the menus, etc. work at any resolution. These gratuitous resolution changes don't serve any real purpose.You are absolutely right. When you set the TiVo to native mode, it always displays menus at 720p. If you're on a 480i or 1080i channel and hit menu, TiVo changes to 720p and your display must resync.

The menus should be displayed using whatever resolution you are currently on. Many of us have requested this feature for months.

I've three or four STBs with native mode output, and the TiVo is the only one that changed resolution to display the menus. Every other box -- the Scientific Atlanta, LG, and Sony -- all displayed the menus using the current resolution.

[bkdtv]

From what I've read, a 1080i signal is just as good as a 1080p signal when properly processed.Highlighted for emphasis.

But I believe rainwater was referring to conversion of other sources such as 480i and 720p. The conversion of 720p60 to 1080i30 is not lossless -- it throws away half the information on video broadcasts like NFL football. However, conversion of 720p to 1080p60 in the display is virtually lossless.

[chazas]

I agree that the delay is frustrating. But I have a 65" Sharp 1080p TV, which does a vastly better job of handling a "native" output signal and processing it itself than the TiVo does at either 1080i or 720p fixed. The difference is quite noticeable, especially on SD programming.

Even my partner, who is usually quite impatient with technological glitsches like this and will usually go for the more seamless solution as opposed to the higher quality one, won't put up with the decreased quality when using the TiVo's processor.

For the life of me I can't figure out why they didn't put the TiVo screens in either 1080i or SD. 720p is the worst of all worlds, in that it causes the most delays.

[Brainiac 5]

For the life of me I can't figure out why they didn't put the TiVo screens in either 1080i or SD.If you'd prefer it in SD, here's something I've noticed: If you go to the menu for choosing whether or not you have a widescreen TV, there are three choices, 4:3, 16:9, and (something like) "smart screen." Smart screen is (if I remember right) for 4:3 TVs that can vertically squish their full resolution into a 16:9 area of the screen when displaying widescreen material. If you choose this option, the menus will be shown in SD, presumably to make them take up the whole screen on a 4:3 smart screen display.

I don't remember if this has any undesired side effects when using it with a 16:9 display, but if you'd like the menus better in SD it might be something to try.

[m_jonis]

Actually I think the Tivo should have a pass-through mode. Some TV's have a much better scaler than the Tivo does.

Plus a lot of our stations are 720p, but some (like Discovery HD) are 1080i. I prefer 720p instead of the interpolation/scaling.

[dslunceford]

Slightly off topic, but I also miss the way that I could simply use up on the direction pad to choose output mode with my old HR10-250 HD DirecTiVo....I have one box hooked up to both an RPTV (which is 1080i native) and a projector (that is 720P native). It's a pain to go back and forth through the menu options to switch what is basically a series of toggles...

[bkdtv]

Actually I think the Tivo should have a pass-through mode. Some TV's have a much better scaler than the Tivo does.

Plus a lot of our stations are 720p, but some (like Discovery HD) are 1080i. I prefer 720p instead of the interpolation/scaling.No one is arguing about the pass-through mode for actual channels.

The problem is the pass-through mode for the 720p menus. Does it matter whether the TiVo menus are displayed at 480p or 1080i? No.

[johnf@home]

Your set is a fixed resolution and either the TV or the TiVo has to re-scale the image, so why not let the TiVo do the job.

What fixed resolution should I choose?

Conversion between 720p and 1080i, in either direction, throws away information. My TV (1080p native display) handles 1080i perfectly, and can upscale 720p to 1920x1080 with minimal image degradation. Unfortunately a TiVo can't do as well.

Most of the time the difference is hard to spot, but a lot of the 720p programming on sports channels (ESPN, ESPN2, etc.) is just the sort of signal where the rescaling artifacts become noticeable, especially along high-contrast edges (such as, say, team numbers and names on jerseys).

[Tidal_Wave_One]

No one is arguing about the pass-through mode for actual channels.

The problem is the pass-through mode for the 720p menus. Does it matter whether the TiVo menus are displayed at 480p or 1080i? No.

Exactly... what a hassle... it should keep the menus in the same mode. It would avoid a lot of unnecessary switching. This would probably be the best solution. C'mon TiVo!!

I have my TiVo in 1080i fixed now, but would prefer native if it wasn't so bad switching.

Another option may be to use component instead of HDMI. Supposedly my TV will handle the switches better with component than HDMI, but I haven't tried it yet.

[johnf@home]

Apparently the HD Tivo in "Native" mode will always try to create video screens in 720p resolution. This causes my (1080p-capable) TV to switch resolution to 720p if I push the "TiVo" button on the remote, no matter what the original resolution is for whatever I happen to be watching. This change is not seamless (it can sometimes take a quarter of a second or so).

Wouldn't it be more sensible for the TiVo to keep the output format the same when switching to displaying internally-generated data? The hardware is obviously capable of this, and all the menus, etc. work at any resolution. These gratuitous resolution changes don't serve any real purpose.

Switching to a fixed output format isn't really a good solution; it will degrade the signal for anything except the format that matches the chosen value. If the TiVo offered 1080p I'd pick that, but it isn't an option.

Well, what do you know - this now seems to have been fixed!

I'm watching a program that's in 480i SD. If I push the "TiVo" button on the remote I go straight to TiVo central, but the TV stays at 480i rather than switching to 720p.

I have changed one setting (I told the TiVo I have a Smart 4:3 TV, rather than telling it it's a 16:9 screen), so that might have caused the change in behaviour. Either that, or TiVo fixed it in an upgrade. Either way, I'm happy!

[johnf@home]

I have changed one setting (I told the TiVo I have a Smart 4:3 TV, rather than telling it it's a 16:9 screen), so that might have caused the change in behaviour. Either that, or TiVo fixed it in an upgrade. Either way, I'm happy!

I spoke too soon. Apparently it was the "Smart TV" setting; that causes the TiVo to always generate menus in 480i, rather than 720p. That's good if I'm watching a 480i program, but if I'm watching a HD recording then I still get an unnecessary format switch (and have to wait for the HDMI handshake to complete).