FIOS TV pixellation fix - attenuate to SNR 31 [Text View] - Page 4

rainwater

07-14-2009, 01:27 PM

IIRC TiVo firmware is never, has never been upgraded, only the software. Could be wrong but IIRC that was a statement made by Jerry or Stephen or someone at TiVo a while back.

AFAIK, they do have drivers that rely on the chip makers to update. So its possible it was a 3rd party driver or firmware change, but TiVo rarely makes information like this public so we have no way of knowing. I really doesn't seem like it could of been fixed with a simple software update. My guess is it required a driver update and software could of changed to work with the new driver changes.

webin

07-14-2009, 01:56 PM

what about those of us that never had a problem with FIOS?

I had pixillation problems for the first 10 months or so of FIOS, but it had cleared up pretty well before I received this software version.

Since receiving the software, I've continued to experience no problems whatsoever (and I see the "pegged 100%" signal quality everyone else does, where I didn't before).

bkdtv

07-14-2009, 02:46 PM

AFAIK, they do have drivers that rely on the chip makers to update. So its possible it was a 3rd party driver or firmware change, but TiVo rarely makes information like this public so we have no way of knowing. I really doesn't seem like it could of been fixed with a simple software update. My guess is it required a driver update and software could of changed to work with the new driver changes.I think that is highly likely as well.

At bootup, the TiVo loads separate Linux drivers for the Broadcom DVR CPU (bcm7401_C1), ATI ATSC/QAM demodulator (ati314_Gen06), and VIXS XCode (xcode2drv), among others.

richsadams

07-14-2009, 04:02 PM

I think that is highly likely as well.

At bootup, the TiVo loads separate Linux drivers for the Broadcom DVR CPU (bcm7401_C1), ATI ATSC/QAM demodulator (ati314_Gen06), and VIXS XCode (xcode2drv), among others.That would be good news indeed. I always felt like my TiVo's were just sitting there getting further and further behind while other things like CC's, etc. were getting firmware updates that resulted in improved operations.

Oh Jerry...can you comment? Does TiVo occasionally push firmware updates?

bkdtv

07-14-2009, 04:07 PM

Oh Jerry...can you comment? Does TiVo occasionally push firmware updates?Most other DVR manufacturers load drivers from flash memory (i.e. firmware), but TiVo does not. On TiVo, all of the software, including the drivers, load from the hard drive just as on your PC. That's one reason why bad sectors on the drive can cause so many problems.

richsadams

07-14-2009, 04:25 PM

Most other DVR manufacturers load drivers from flash memory (i.e. firmware), but TiVo does not. On TiVo, all of the software, including the drivers, load from the hard drive just as on your PC. That's one reason why bad sectors on the drive can cause so many problems.More evidence and makes perfect sense. :up:

rifleman69

07-14-2009, 11:02 PM

d works for me for every channel that I watch (so there could still be others) except for UHD which is still dialed in at 31 SNR but the error count jumps by the hundreds/thousands. Most likely a Verizon issue, I don't normally watch that channel but for a few times but it's pretty bad.

bkdtv

07-14-2009, 11:03 PM

rifleman -- Have you tried removing your attenuation?

GmanTiVo

07-15-2009, 07:02 AM

Re-Post from another thread, thought it may be relevant here as well :)

I have had .d now for approx 1 week, removed the -20db attenuator, signal strength back to 100, 37db.

I have left the tuners on the 2 most problematic channes for me (DiscHD and FoodHD) over the weekend. Happy to report Uncorrected errors stayed at 0 for both tuners and not a single pixellation. :eek::)

WHOOT WHOOT

YAY

:D

Thank you Tivo

Gman

ps, I know many are still in the que for the update..... perform a "Kickstart 51" on a daily basis, it may help ;)

DeWitt

07-15-2009, 09:48 AM

ps, I know many are still in the que for the update..... perform a "Kickstart 51" on a daily basis, it may help ;)

From previous comments from Jerry, there is no way to move up in the queue.

My number came up yesterday. I removed all attenuation and can also report great success. 100 signal strength, 0 uncorrected errors.

Looks like a winner!

vurbano

07-15-2009, 11:07 AM

We have just made the decision to roll 11.0d to the rest of the units in the field. Barring any unforeseen delays, all HD DVRs will have it by this weekend so there isn't a need for a priority list.

Hurrrrraay!!!!!!!!:D

TiVoJerry

07-15-2009, 11:33 AM

ps, I know many are still in the que for the update..... perform a "Kickstart 51" on a daily basis, it may help ;)

This will not in any way cause our servers to deliver SW to you sooner.

rifleman69

07-15-2009, 02:08 PM

rifleman -- Have you tried removing your attenuation?

Doing that tonight, but have noticed that several other channels that had pixellation (nothing as bad as UHD) were rock solid with the attenuation so figured that UHD might be in the same boat. Will report back tonight.

I don't have any other way to check if UHD is just simply bad at my house due to only having a non-HD receiver on the only other tv in the house, just throwing that out there before someone else mentions it.

rocko

07-15-2009, 02:26 PM

Add me to the list -

My THD was having fits with TCM (230) - RS corrected/uncorrected out the wazoo. 9db of attenuation made it watchable. 11.0d came down last night and it looks like RS corrected/uncorrected are at 0 after about an hour of tuning/watching. That's with and without the attenuation (which is now removed).

Good job, TiVo :up:

GmanTiVo

07-15-2009, 02:50 PM

This will not in any way cause our servers to deliver SW to you sooner.

No it won't force your servers to deliver the .d SW when it has not been approved yet but you should recognize that if my TSN number is in the approved que for that day and my S3 is set to check in only at 4am (while I sleep), doing a Kickstart 51 at 2pm in the afternoon will force the unit to upgrade the approved (by TSN) SW rather than waiting do do it automatically later on. ;)

I stand corrected, see below post

Gman

bkdtv

07-15-2009, 02:57 PM

No it won't force your servers to deliver the .d SW when it has not been approved yet but you should recognize that if my TSN number is in the approved que for that day and my S3 is set to check in only at 4am (while I sleep), doing a Kickstart 51 at 2pm in the afternoon will force the unit to upgrade the approved (by TSN) SW rather than waiting do do it automatically later on. ;)Please don't confuse people. No one should run Kickstart to install the new software.

Any reboot or restart will immediately install software if it was downloaded during the last connection.

You can check to see whether the new software is on your TiVo, waiting for install, under Messages & Settings -> Settings -> Phone & Network. "Pending Restart" means that your TiVo has the new software ready for install. If the software is on your TiVo and ready for install, you can install it immediately by restarting your TiVo under Messages & Settings -> Restart or Reset TiVo -> Restart the TiVo DVR.

GmanTiVo

07-15-2009, 03:01 PM

Please don't confuse people. No one should run Kickstart to install the new software.

Any reboot or restart will immediately install software if it was downloaded during the last connection.

You can check to see whether the new software is on your TiVo, waiting for install, under Messages & Settings -> Settings -> Phone & Network. "Pending Restart" means that your TiVo has the new software ready for install. If the software is on your TiVo and ready for install, you can install it immediately by restarting your TiVo under Messages & Settings -> Restart or Reset TiVo -> Restart the TiVo DVR.

Thank you for the clarification, I am glad I did no damage to my Tivo by doing something else.

Gman

leeherman

07-16-2009, 12:32 PM

I switched to FIOS in late March and have had some serious pixelization issues on certain channels with my bedroom Tivo HD and rare issues with my living room S3.

I bought attenuators but never got around to installing them. I'll be looking forward to receiving the new update and testing the results, especially on the bedroom Tivo. I'll update when I receive and test the software.

LH

rifleman69

07-16-2009, 12:37 PM

An update, UHD looks to be good so far, but I've noticed that before the pixellation would come and go on certain programs. Will look at it more tonight and tomorrow to see if it holds, removed all attenuation for now (Actually I have a splitter being used in the back and haven't removed that but still went from 18db to 2db or so).

bkdtv

07-16-2009, 12:44 PM

vurbano

07-16-2009, 01:26 PM

Hope I get the update soon.

TiVoJerry

07-16-2009, 01:45 PM

We just mapped the final batch of units. If you don't have SW yet, you can make a connection to get it now. Otherwise it will download automatically on your next regular service connection.

rocko

07-16-2009, 03:29 PM

We just mapped the final batch of units. If you don't have SW yet, you can make a connection to get it now. Otherwise it will download automatically on your next regular service connection.

Thanks again Jerry. BTW, are you guys hiring? I've been out of work for about 3 months now and watching way too much TV. Good thing I have my TiVos :D

rifleman69

07-16-2009, 04:01 PM

Note UHD is highly compressed by Universal, so you will see compression artifacts. This update won't do anything about compression artifacts that are already part of the original picture signal. But it should eliminate the pixelization caused by signal errors (i.e. massive numbers of RS Uncorrected errors under System Information -> DVR Diagnostics).

It's not the compression artifacts, it's definitely pixellation that I had on that channel. The uncorrected and corrected errors jumped up by the hundreds/thousands.

almahix

07-16-2009, 04:14 PM

Thanks to everyone for the information and the regular updates. The guy I spoke to at Tivo about this recently was full of BS with regard to how the updates were to be rolled out by 'region'. Seems more like random vs geography. All my Tivo HDs woke up this morning with 11.0.d, and so far, the channels that were the worst, 50, 51, and 240, are all free of uncorrected errors. I'll be watching those numbers closely for a while, hopefully we've all seen the last of this pixellation problem. I'm surprised that Verizon was so tolerant and helpful when it wasn't even their problem.

vurbano

07-16-2009, 04:36 PM

We just mapped the final batch of units. If you don't have SW yet, you can make a connection to get it now. Otherwise it will download automatically on your next regular service connection.

Came home from work and it was downloaded. Reset the units and now both are updated. I checked one channel, USA Ch50 an SD channel. It was the first one I saw when I got FIOS and it was macroblocking like crazy before the update. All of SD channels were unstable but since I only watch HD on the tivoHD's it didnt matter. Now with 11.0.d it looks great and very stable. I suspect it has fixed all of the SD channels. On the HD channels there were only occasional signs of a problem so it will take longer to evaluate them.:up::up::up:

bkdtv

07-16-2009, 04:50 PM

I'll be watching those numbers closely for a while, hopefully we've all seen the last of this pixellation problem. I'm surprised that Verizon was so tolerant and helpful when it wasn't even their problem.If a signal is out of spec, or sometimes differs from the spec used by cable companies, does that make it TiVo's fault? I agree it was TiVo's responsibility to fix, but I don't think we know enough to assign the blame to TiVo. Many (but not all) CableCard TVs still exhibit the same problem, as do the CableCard tuners for Vista Media Center PCs.

I do appreciate that TiVo (and its partners) spent the time to create a workaround. It's just unfortunate that it didn't happen sooner.

vurbano

07-16-2009, 05:19 PM

Well by fixing it they have really opened up another market (Fios) for the tivo unit IMO. The SD channels were unwatchable here before the fix and I was flat out lied to by my installer. "Oh our signal levels don't get that high"

Alcatraz

07-16-2009, 05:56 PM

Thanks to everyone for the information and the regular updates. The guy I spoke to at Tivo about this recently was full of BS with regard to how the updates were to be rolled out by 'region'. Seems more like random vs geography.
It seems like there are always a few agents who like to either make up stories about various subjects they know little about, or give an answer just to sound like they know something. I don't know why he didn't just admit "I'm not sure how that works but I'm sure you'll get it very soon."

I'm surprised that Verizon was so tolerant and helpful when it wasn't even their problem.
What makes you draw that conclusion? IIRC {i.e. the following statement could be wrong}, I thought I'd read :confused: that Tivo was working with Fios in a joint venture to figure this thing out. If so, I don't think anyone here is in a position to state for sure what the cause was.

Like many here, I'd be curious to know the answer but I also know that a detailed explanation is unlikely. I doubt either company will want to point fingers now that it is resolved.....or maybe it's the start of a new and bee-you-tiful Verizon & Tivo relationship!!!:eek::eek:
Hey, you never know....

rocko

07-16-2009, 06:21 PM

... maybe it's the start of a new and bee-you-tiful Verizon & Tivo relationship!!!:eek::eek:
Hey, you never know....

Mheh heh. It's funny that the next time they show Casablanca on TCM (230) it will actually be watchable - thanks to 11.0d :D

Note: It's been over 24 hours tuned to channel 230 with 0 RS corrected/uncorrected errors. I'll go out on a limb here and say they nailed this one. Woo hoo !

FiosUser

07-16-2009, 06:28 PM

So is this thread going to be dead now?

Can't wait to get home and perform the connect. Bye-bye attenuators and hello to a good picture once again!

richsadams

07-16-2009, 07:50 PM

Note: It's been over 24 hours tuned to channel 230 with 0 RS corrected/uncorrected errors. I'll go out on a limb here and say they nailed this one. Woo hoo !Okay, I was doubtful when I read your earlier post...but you're right. Watching TiVo 24 hours a day is really a bit much. :p Hope that new job at TiVo comes your way soon! :D

dvdguru

07-16-2009, 08:46 PM

I have TWC (not Fios) and have been having the same problems as the fios people. I'm a new tivo customer (bought the 1tb hd tivo) in april and have had the pixellation/stuttering/sound dropout problems the whole time. TWC came out and removed the house amp and it didn't help
without still using the attenuation.

I got the bag of attenuators and have tried a thousand different db combinations. It helped some but I still had audio dropouts, recordings that would speed up roughly 20 seconds and then start to play, pixellation, etc.

I got the update this morning and removed the attenuators and all seems to be good so far. No droupouts or anything, just a steady feed from the cable company. Now, this is live tv but I'm going to be watching recorded material over the weekend but so far this update ROCKS! I used to have dropouts w/in the first few seconds of playing recorded programs and I just checked and that problem is gone too.

Thanks to tivo for the update as 2 weeks ago I was ready to call them and swap out my brand new tivo. I read about the update on this site and thought "well, I guess I can tolerate this thing for a few more weeks and see how the update goes". So far I'm extremely happy I waited.

This update so far has me as a new customer from thinking "I believe I just wasted a thousand dollars on this thing" to "ok, this is what I was expecting performance-wise when I bought this Tivo."

Thank you Tivo for fixing this. I don't care whose fault it was just that it was fixed :)

FiosUser

07-16-2009, 10:13 PM

I found 11.d waiting for me when I got home.

My Tivo is now naked of extra screw-ons! The picture is a lot better too (on USA HD like everyone is saying. Also my Discovery HD now isn't pixelated anymore.)

richsadams

07-17-2009, 01:51 AM

Per my earlier post (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7383738#post7383738) we received v11.0d on the 14th. All looked good until tonight when we were watching Burn Notice on USAHD (which had previously shown macroblocking/pixelization w/high RS Uncorrected errors). During the opening of the show one scene cross-fade showed some serious problems. The rest of the show was fine. I checked the diagnostics later and the channel showed zero RS Corrected and Uncorrected errors, but that was after the show had already aired.

Here's a link to a brief YouTube clip showing the problem in normal and slo-mo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTQ_qoU07TA

Just curious if anyone else had recorded it and noted the same thing. If so I can attribute it to the program and not TiVo. It doesn't show up as poorly in the YouTube video but the artifacts are pretty bad when you actually watch it. The scene just prior to the breakup (two yachts on the water) was in stop motion (intentional I believe) and my gut tells me it was a program/broadcast issue but just wanted confirmation if others had seen the same thing.

FWIW although I think USAHD's PQ has improved since v11.0d, the quality of this particular recording didn't seem any better and in fact not as good as some others.

ehagberg

07-17-2009, 04:04 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTQ_qoU07TA

Just curious if anyone else had recorded it and noted the same thing. If so I can attribute it to the program and not TiVo. It doesn't show up as poorly in the YouTube video but the artifacts are pretty bad when you actually watch it. The scene just prior to the breakup (two yachts on the water) was in stop motion (intentional I believe) and my gut tells me it was a program/broadcast issue but just wanted confirmation if others had seen the same thing.

I see the same thing in my recording. Looks to me like it was an intentional fade effect and nothing actually wrong.

richsadams

07-17-2009, 06:03 AM

I see the same thing in my recording. Looks to me like it was an intentional fade effect and nothing actually wrong.Glad to hear that. If it was a "creative" cross-fade it was terrible. The first part worked, but then the picture broke up...might have been intentional but it didn't work IMO. What lousy timing for us. :mad:

Thanks for checking! :up:

leeherman

07-17-2009, 07:21 AM

I received the latest software update on both my HD and S3.

The HD was having some serious problems on certain channels, but as of last night I see no pixelization and no errors, corrected or uncorrected.

Great job Tivo!

Thanks!

LH

dlfl

07-17-2009, 08:20 AM

Glad to hear that. If it was a "creative" cross-fade it was terrible. The first part worked, but then the picture broke up...might have been intentional but it didn't work IMO. What lousy timing for us. :mad:

Thanks for checking! :up:
You FIOS people live in a strange pampered world! (Now that you have 11.0d) :D If TWC customers with Tuning Adapters posted every time we saw a little glitch like that, the forum would be flooded.

(See the official Time Warner Cable thread and the Time Warner Cable Tuning Adapter thread for examples.)

Oh well, we're happy for you! (We want FIOS! We want FIOS!)

BTW, how much does FIOS cost you, including cable card(s)? I shouldn't ask because the answer will probably just make me feel worse because it's less than what I'm paying for TWC. Then there's the copy protection thing.....

rocko

07-17-2009, 08:45 AM

rocko

07-17-2009, 08:55 AM

...

BTW, how much does FIOS cost you, including cable card(s)? I shouldn't ask because the answer will probably just make me feel worse because it's less than what I'm paying for TWC. Then there's the copy protection thing.....

It depends on the package. Triple Freedom includes landline telephone, Internet and TV. Here's my bill:

http://www.bungmunch.com/images/FIOSbill.png

ah30k

07-17-2009, 10:32 AM

On that shown bill, I had the $99 triple play package with Premier but my contract recently expired and I learned the hard way that they bump you to a'la'carte pricing which is $150 rather than the bundle price of $99.

Also, they don't offer Premier anymore so you need to go down to basic for $99 bundle (only about 7 HD channels) or move up to extreme for $120 bundle.

Moving from the now extinct Premier @ $99 to the Extreme @ $120 got me more HD channels but I don't know if it is worth the extra $20/month over Premier. Doesn't really matter though since Premier is extinct. The Basic $99 was a non-starter for me since the HD is sooo limited.

Bottom line now is that your FIOS choices are
Basic Triple Play with about 7 HD channels = $99
Extremen Triple Play with a full slate of HD = $120
Any Movie or sports packages = extra (although the Extreme seems to have many HD sports already)
CableCards = $3.99 each (or $2.99 if grandfathered in)
Digital Adapters (for S2s) = $3.99 each I think (or free if grandfathered in)

BobCamp1

07-17-2009, 10:41 AM

If a signal is out of spec, or sometimes differs from the spec used by cable companies, does that make it TiVo's fault?

Yes, it does. Tivo is supposed to ask Verizon if there is anything special about their signal BEFORE they design the box or claim FIOS compatibility with an existing box. After all, Verizon isn't part of CableLabs and yet the Tivo was designed to work only with CableLabs networks. I think it's reasonable to assume there could there be some problems.

I am glad it finally works. I may switch from DirecTV to FIOS next year as well as upgrade to HD, and it would be nice to get another Tivo.

rocko

07-17-2009, 11:13 AM

dlfl

07-17-2009, 11:34 AM

Is the phone service in these bundles traditional copper wired or also via fiber?

rocko

07-17-2009, 11:46 AM

Is the phone service in these bundles traditional copper wired or also via fiber?

Fiber to the ONT (termination on premises) - then POTS inside the house. Twisted pair from the street is replaced by fiber.

richsadams

07-17-2009, 11:47 AM

It depends on the package. Triple Freedom includes landline telephone, Internet and TV. Here's my bill:Ours is pretty close to that as well. We have another movie package and Setanta Sports channel (+$14.94/mo.).

The total is about $50 less per month than we were paying Comcast plus we have more premium channels as well as a lot more HD channels to choose from. The price is locked for two-years and they also gave us a $150 Visa card for signing up. I think you can get a free Netbook now (glad they offered cash at the time as we're more-or-less all Mac here). Costs a bundle to get out of the contract though so I was sweating a few bullets about switching with the PQ thing, but it all turned out just fine. :up:

EDIT: Forgot to add that we have 20/5 broadband.

ah30k

07-17-2009, 01:23 PM

Here's what I found when I looked into changing my existing plan. These numbers look different than the ones you quoted. You might try going online to your Verizon account to see what you come up with ?

One thing I did notice was the $99 plan shows 15/5 Internet instead of my current 20/5.Here are the ones that show up for me

(the $99 non-extreme package does not seem to be showing now but it did yestersay ?)
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_-MpEwzGUqN0/SmDBpLAAKFI/AAAAAAAAEUo/dlWRgElFrQA/s800/FiosPrices.jpg

ah30k

07-17-2009, 01:26 PM

We're getting way off topic, but... I guess pricing depends on which franchise you are in.

bkdtv

07-17-2009, 01:30 PM

New York and New Jersey customers generally pay less. NYC customers get 35/15 service for the same price as 15/5 service in many areas.

dmeleedy

07-17-2009, 01:56 PM

Just to followup on my earlier frustrated post.
I got the Tivo updated software and after that things were
much much better. But I still noticed a slight amount
of pixellation, so I removed the attenuator that was on the line
(20db). After that the signal strength went from 60ish, to 100.
The SNR is at 36->37 db. I haven't seen any RS Uncorrected
or even Corrected errors.

Thanks Jerry, and the folks at Tivo.

modular46

07-19-2009, 09:57 PM

I finally got 11.0D myself and I've removed all attenuation as well and the picture looks great. No pixelation. Great job Tivo for fixing this issue.

Dave

y8s

07-21-2009, 10:28 PM

I have 11.0d and my comedy central HD (channel 690 / 855000 KHz) is all over the place signal wise. I was getting "searching for signal" messages popping up so I removed all but the Verizon installed attenuator and the SNR went up a little but the errors (both) still kept increasing. I removed the last attenuator and Corrected errors still increase at a regular rate with the RS Uncorrected increasing occasionally (every few minutes it'll jump up). Strength bounces between 68 and 75 and SNR is at 33 or 32.

Other tuner is on channel 664 (Food HD) 597 MHz and 100 strength / 37-38db and seems stable.

oh
wait

strength dropped down to 50 and uncorrected errors started increasing as I was typing. then signal, SNR and RS all went to "-" for a moment.

Not good..

Ziggy86

07-27-2009, 01:59 PM

So has this issue been resolved for most people? I have not seen a post here for about a week.

substance12

07-27-2009, 03:00 PM

So has this issue been resolved for most people? I have not seen a post here for about a week.

there were 2 channels in particular that were problematic for me. I haven't watched 1 of them too much but the other I have watched an average amount. verdict: problem solved. I took off an ugly mess of attenuators and splitters. My signal is 100% str and 38snr. I wanted to wait a few weeks before posting. will post back again in a few weeks if things go negative.

DeWitt

07-27-2009, 04:25 PM

So has this issue been resolved for most people? I have not seen a post here for about a week.

Mine has been perfect. I removed all my attenuation. Signal strength is usually at or near 100 and I see 0 uncorrected 0 uncorrected errors even on what where the worst channels.

Not only is the picture perfect (Pun intended...) but I have not had a spontaneous reboot since 11.0d installed. It used to be a fairly common occurrence on the problem channels.

FiosUser

07-27-2009, 06:22 PM

Case closed for me.

evlg

07-28-2009, 05:44 AM

I didn't have too many problems with pixelation, but since 11.0d came out my RS Uncorrected is 0 every time i look at it.

I do see some errors in channels (in particular, National Geographic channel this Sunday morning). The RS Uncorrected was still 0, leading me to believe the problems were in the head end or somewhere further upstream. But the video and audio glitches were quite annoying.

Ziggy86

07-28-2009, 07:10 AM

bkdtv

07-28-2009, 08:41 AM

I have Time Warner cable here in NY and I see pixellation from time to time, testerday was very bad but only on HBO HD channels and maybe because we were having bas thunderstorms.

Here is my question, when I see pixelation I go immediately to the diagnostics screen and I see NO error, should I not see errors in diagnostics if there is pixellation?The RS Uncorrected errors always increment, regardless of whether you are on the DVR Diagnostics screen. They error count only resets when (a) you change channels, (b) when a recording starts, and (c) when a recording ends.

HBOHD is highly compressed so it tends to exhibit compression artifacts during movement and scene transitions. This has nothing to do with the signal or the TiVo.

Ziggy86

07-28-2009, 08:50 AM

So most people have this issue with HBO HD? Same issue with HBO HD on FiOS?

bkdtv

07-28-2009, 10:02 AM

So most people have this issue with HBO HD? Same issue with HBO HD on FiOS?The HBO and Cinemax channels are highly compressed everywhere. HBO East and West should look a little better on FiOS, but the other HBO feeds (converted from 6Mbps MPEG-4) are probably comparable to what you are accustomed to with Time Warner.

DCIFRTHS

07-31-2009, 01:28 AM

The HBO and Cinemax channels are highly compressed everywhere. HBO East and West should look a little better on FiOS, but the other HBO feeds (converted from 6Mbps MPEG-4) are probably comparable to what you are accustomed to with Time Warner.

Why are the East and West coast feeds different from the rest of the country? Or are you saying that the main HBOHD feed is less compressed than the HBO "sub- channels"? Am I making any sense???

wmcbrine

07-31-2009, 01:42 AM

He's saying that the main channels are sent from HBO in MPEG-2, while the others (HBO2, HBO Comedy, etc.) are sent as MPEG-4, which Verizon then has to reencode to MPEG-2.

DCIFRTHS

07-31-2009, 02:22 AM

He's saying that the main channels are sent from HBO in MPEG-2, while the others (HBO2, HBO Comedy, etc.) are sent as MPEG-4, which Verizon then has to reencode to MPEG-2.

Thanks for the explanation! One more question if you have a chance...

Which adversely affects picture quality the most: The re-encoding (codec switch), or the feed being shrunk "(converted from 6Mbps MPEG-4)"?

wmcbrine

07-31-2009, 10:28 AM

I don't think the premise of the question is quite right. Both MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 are lossy, and there's no getting around that. MPEG-4 should, in principle, preserve more of the quality at a lower bitrate, so that 6 Mbps of MPEG-4 is equivalent to some higher rate of MPEG-2 -- you might suppose that to be 12 Mbps, for comparison, but there's no exact equivalent. So, assuming that the main HBO channel is MPEG-2 at 12 Mbps, it might be about the same quality as HBO 2 in MPEG-4 at 6 Mbps. Then, since not all their equipment can handle MPEG-4 yet, Verizon reencodes the MPEG-4 channels to MPEG-2, necessarily resulting in a (small) loss in quality. But that would be just as true if they were reencoding an MPEG-2 channel, or any other source.

In practice, all the HBO channels look pretty good to me, and I haven't noticed the difference between HBO and HBO 2.

JAB

10-02-2009, 10:53 PM

Anyone else on FiOS experiencing video that gives the impression of missing frames? It's hard to describe. Not pixelation or stuttering, but jerky motion, like frames are being dropped, particularly noticeable during scenes with lots of motion. I'm experiencing this intermittently with programs recorded in HD from major networks. As an example, it was very noticeable for me with the most recent episode of Fringe.

I'm using a TiVo S3 with the most recent software, and I'm in the Northern Virginia area.

aaronwt

10-02-2009, 11:45 PM

I didn't notice anything on fringe. But I also output at the native resolution and use my DVDO EDGE to scale up to 1080P.

bkdtv

10-03-2009, 12:45 AM

Anyone else on FiOS experiencing video that gives the impression of missing frames? It's hard to describe. Not pixelation or stuttering, but jerky motion, like frames are being dropped, particularly noticeable during scenes with lots of motion. I'm experiencing this intermittently with programs recorded in HD from major networks. As an example, it was very noticeable for me with the most recent episode of Fringe.I had no trouble with the latest episode of Fringe.

Are you using a 120MHz or 240MHz LCD? If so, you may notice jerky motion with certain display settings. For more information, refer to the AVS owner's thread for your particular display.

evlg

10-03-2009, 02:43 AM

bkdtv

10-03-2009, 08:01 AM

I have seen dropped frames/stuttering without pixelation ever since 11.0d came out.

My suspicion is that the "fix" for pixellation just converts the problem into a stutter or dropped frame, which is maybe more tolerable.The "fix" included new tuner improvements to better handle the FiOS signal. That eliminated massive RS Uncorrected errors that caused pixelization. If you aren't seeing RS Uncorrected errors on your DVR Diagnostics screen, then you you should see the signal exactly as delivered. If you're still seeing larger numbers of RS Uncorrected errors (i.e. tens of thousands), then those could cause dropped frames.

Stutter can also be an early indicator of internal or external drive failure; stutter is common on My DVR Expanders that are starting to fail. As mentioned above, various display settings on some popular Samsung, Sony, and Toshiba 120-240MHz LCDs will also cause stutter with certain signals regardless of your box and provider, which you can read more about on the AVS Forum.

JAB

10-03-2009, 10:04 AM

bkdtv

10-03-2009, 10:29 AM

The TiVo was sending 1080i to a Denon 5308, which uses a Realta to convert to 1080p/60, before delivering the signal to a Sony VPL-VW200. The Sony upconverts to 96 Hz / 120 Hz and refreshes at 192 Hz / 240 Hz.

I don't think this is a settings issue. I normally don't let the Sony process the picture any further, although I've played with Motion Enhancer in an attempt to get rid of the problem. With Motionflow off, the Sony just repeats frames to reach 120 Hz / 240 Hz. And, the only thing I'm permitting the Realta to do is deinterlace and scale.

I too thought that 11.0d might have been simply masking the pixelation by dropping overly pixelated frames. That's certainly what it looks like. I'll take your word that it doesn't.

The effect is 100% reproducible on replay.If you're still seeing RS Uncorrected errors, then you could have dropped frames. I assume you've tested the TiVo without a My DVR Expander to rule that out as a possible cause.

Have you disabled the Denon's video processing to rule that out as a cause? [Yes, I realize that Realta HQV should provide excellent deinterlace and scaling.]

JAB

10-03-2009, 10:51 AM

Removing the DVR Expander will be a real PITA. I'd like to exhaust everything else first, especially since I don't think the DVR Expander is the problem. Would you expect a hard disk issue to be 100% reproducible on replay and so intermittent? My past experience has been that such problems were in the signal before it reached the hard disk.

The problem only occurs on some channels some of the time. I don't think I've ever seen it on anything other than a broadcast network, which tends to point the finger at the broadcaster or FiOS, although it could be something like the 11.0d issue.

It did occur to me, as I posted my last message, to completely disable the Realta and let the projector do the deinterlacing. I'll try that. Good suggestion.

I should probably mention that I'm particularly sensitive to these types of issues, so a significant percentage of other people watching the same material probably wouldn't notice it, especially if they were viewing it on a smaller screen.

bicker

10-03-2009, 11:15 AM

The problem is that exhausting everything else first means trying your local cable company next, to see if you have the same problem. If you do, then you are back to it being most likely a DVR Expander problem (or perhaps a hard drive problem, I suppose). It seems to me that divorcing the DVR Expander is a less draconian test scenario than switching providers would be.

bkdtv

10-03-2009, 11:30 AM

If you see this issue primarily (or only) on broadcast networks, you might connect a set-top antenna to the TiVo to compare feeds. Verizon FiOS passes local networks as is, so if you see the same issue on a secondary source, that would rule out a signal problem as the cause.

If you're within 15 miles of the broadcast networks, you might try small set-top antenna like this ($11.99) (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103077).

JAB

10-03-2009, 01:37 PM

The problem is that exhausting everything else first means trying your local cable company next, to see if you have the same problem.

Perhaps "everything" is too extreme a statement. How about everything less inconvenient first? I wouldn't certainly divorce the DVR Expander before switching providers. However, there are a number of things that can be done short of switching providers.

If you see this issue primarily (or only) on broadcast networks, you might connect a set-top antenna to the TiVo to compare feeds. Verizon FiOS passes local networks as is, so if you see the same issue on a secondary source, that would rule out a signal problem as the cause.

I have a nice rooftop antenna with amplifier that often does a good job of pulling in signals, although I haven't used it since getting FiOS. The only reason I haven't tried the antenna yet is the problem is so intermittent, that I'm not really in a position to record every show twice, from two different sources. However, that is another excellent suggestion, so I'll put it in the queue. I really appreciate your insights on this.

JAB

10-03-2009, 10:31 PM

OK. First, I'm a moron. Fringe is broadcast in 720p, which means the S3 was converting 720p to 1080i before the Realta ever saw the signal. The very first thing to try would be native output from the TiVo. Unfortunately, the episode in question was deleted, so I'm at the mercy of the problem surfacing again for more diagnostics.

richsadams

10-04-2009, 01:43 AM

Unfortunately, the episode in question was deleted, so I'm at the mercy of the problem surfacing again for more diagnostics.It's not in the Recently Deleted folder?

evlg

10-04-2009, 01:44 AM

The "fix" included new tuner improvements to better handle the FiOS signal. That eliminated massive RS Uncorrected errors that caused pixelization. If you aren't seeing RS Uncorrected errors on your DVR Diagnostics screen, then you you should see the signal exactly as delivered. If you're still seeing larger numbers of RS Uncorrected errors (i.e. tens of thousands), then those could cause dropped frames.

Stutter can also be an early indicator of internal or external drive failure; stutter is common on My DVR Expanders that are starting to fail. As mentioned above, various display settings on some popular Samsung, Sony, and Toshiba 120-240MHz LCDs will also cause stutter with certain signals regardless of your box and provider, which you can read more about on the AVS Forum.

When I see the problem RS Uncorrected Errors is reported as 0.

I never noticed this problem before 11.0d, and it started happening as soon as I received 11.0d

I don't have any fancy 120hz or 240hz equipment and I certainly haven't modified any settings.

It really feels like to me they just tweaked the tuner to stop reported RS Uncorrected errors in this instance, and drop the frame to "fix" the pixellation issue. I.e. hide the symptom if they couldn't fix the problem.

Does anyone remember the original Quake 1 QTest? When the framerate got low, a turtle icon appeared. They implemented some optimizations after that, but the biggest change they made was the remove the turtle icon. When the final version came out everyone said "hey no more turtle!" and it sure felt faster.

JAB

10-04-2009, 09:46 AM

It's not in the Recently Deleted folder?

Nope. First thing I checked. :)

Dmon4u

10-04-2009, 11:31 AM

I always wonder about the level of frustration with FiOS and TiVo HD. Mainly because more often than not I read about people and their FiOS DVR: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r23128345-Had-enough

richsadams

10-04-2009, 01:29 PM

I always wonder about the level of frustration with FiOS and TiVo HD. Mainly because more often than not I read about people and their FiOS DVR: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r23128345-Had-enoughAgreed. Ours has been almost flawless since our install almost six months ago (even before v11.0d). Just wish we'd made the switch sooner.

Floridaman

11-01-2009, 11:12 PM

I have FiOS and received the 11.0d update yesterday.

I was previously able to eliminate 99+% of all pixelization with 16+dB attenuation. Without this attenuation, most channels exhibited massive pixelization and some channels would not reliably tune.

I did not notice any problems post-install. To test potential improvement with this release, I removed my attenuation this afternoon. To my surprise, I do not see any pixelization on any channel. I checked all my favorite channels for RS Uncorrected errors, and saw none except for occasional errors in the first second or so after tuning a channel. After the first second, there were no further RS Uncorrected errors. Channels that previously required some attenuation to tune...can now be tuned without attenuation and without pixelization.

Verdict: At least for me, the 11.0d update eliminates the need for attenuation. Pixelization is nowhere to be seen. :up::up::up:

I have the Tivo HD XL model dvr. I am using it with Fios and it has the current software 11.0D My signal strength is 100% on all channels and I subscribe to every channel. The SNR reading is 37 on all of the channels. I haven't had any issues with pixellation but just in the past few days have noticed audio drop outs. The sound will cut out for a second then it is fine for a few minutes and then does the same thing again. Tivo is telling me that the signal is way too strong and needs to be adjusted with an attenuator. They also believe this will take care of the audio issue. I thought the 11.0D software addressed these issues. Is the audio cutting out a problem related to SNR or is there a problem with the Tivo unit itself? Should I get an attenuator and if so what db rating should I get?

Thanks

jayhajj

04-14-2010, 03:16 PM

I have the Tivo HD XL model dvr. I am using it with Fios and it has the current software 11.0D My signal strength is 100% on all channels and I subscribe to every channel. The SNR reading is 37 on all of the channels. I haven't had any issues with pixellation but just in the past few days have noticed audio drop outs. The sound will cut out for a second then it is fine for a few minutes and then does the same thing again. Tivo is telling me that the signal is way too strong and needs to be adjusted with an attenuator...
Thanks

I have a Premiere with FiOS service and was getting 91% signal strength and 37db SNR. My TiVo was intermittently rebooting and hanging in the menu. When I contacted TiVo for support, the representative said it was because my signal was too high that and the extra processing power required to run the HD interface was too much for the TiVo. He referred me to this thread. Sounds like "Get attenuators" is right up on their list after "Pull the power cord". If this is so common, TiVo should stock them and provide for free or shipping costs only or partner with a company to provide a variety pack at a good discount.

I have three other Premieres that had been running the old menu with no problems but when I enabled HD menus on one, it hung too. When I disabled HD interface on the main TiVo for 4 days, it didn't have problems any longer either.

These Premieres replaced HDs that had functioned for 9mos with no problems.

I ordered one each of 3db, 6db, 8db, 10db & 12db attenuators from
http://www.cableandwireshop.com/cable_tv_satellite_in_line_attenuator_fam-3_to_20_db_pad.html
for $9.75 plus $3.39 USPS First-Class Mail Parcel shipping.
Ordered on Saturday and received them Wednesday. Chose these vs smarthome to have more flexibility with smalled sizes since I didn't expect to be using the 20db ones they included in their variety pack. With these you get a lot more specific in the db amount you use.

I added an 8db & 3db to drop the readings to 50% signal strength and 31db SNR. I guess the db ratings aren't an exact science so don't only order "X"db if you need to drop your SNR by "X". Are their any negative consequences to a 50% signal strength?

I'll update later once I confirm if the TiVo can run for a few days without a reboot or hang.

-Jay

DeWitt

04-14-2010, 03:34 PM

The reboot and hang issues in the premeire using HD menu's are well known and documented. Rumor is Tivo will have a fix soon. The Fios signal strength should not be an issue.

On my HD I removed all my attenuation after the software fix.

My new Premiere XL runs very happily in SD mode with signal strenght in the high 90's without any issue on Fios. I have been beating it up with channels that caused issues on the HD and have not yet had an audio/video glitch or freeze/reboot.

richsadams

04-14-2010, 03:47 PM

Agreed, the FIOS signal shouldn't be a problem at all. We have FIOS and our Premiere XL is doing fine...although the HDUI is pretty slow. Signal strength is 94% - 97% and SNR is 37 - 38 on both tuners.

Have a look at your RS Corrected and Uncorrected errors. The best experiment is to watch the 'offending' channel(s) live. As you start, go into DVR Diags and check the RS Uncorrected and Corrected counts. As you watch and see events, go back into DVR Diags and recheck the RS counts. Post back what you see. The RS Uncorrected counter counts how many times the demodulator was unable to recover any bit errors in the data in a packet. These events will likely result in macroblocking and at worst can cause the unit to freeze or reboot.

Not saying that attenuation might not fix things, but odds are it won't make much or any difference. An update may resolve things or it could be something else such as a hard drive.

Let us know how it goes.

bkdtv

04-14-2010, 10:54 PM

I have a Premiere with FiOS service and was getting 91% signal strength and 37db SNR. My TiVo was intermittently rebooting and hanging in the menu.As noted above, there are known stability issues with the HDUI's TiVo Central. For now, the only solution is to switch to the "classic" SD interface under Settings -> Display.

TiVo says that it will have a fix for the HDUI instability later this month.

jayhajj

04-15-2010, 12:25 AM

The reboot and hang issues in the premeire using HD menu's are well known and documented. Rumor is Tivo will have a fix soon. The Fios signal strength should not be an issue.

Agreed, the FIOS signal shouldn't be a problem at all. We have FIOS and our Premiere XL is doing fine...although the HDUI is pretty slow. Signal strength is 94% - 97% and SNR is 37 - 38 on both tuners.

Have a look at your RS Corrected and Uncorrected errors...

Well after three hours with the attenuators, the HD menu hung. I have been assuming the box was wedged but I had a recording going this time and it was only missing the time from when I pulled power, so it appears the HD menu is all that is hanging. I have never gotten any RS errors of either kind and the TiVo rep was informed of this.

I called TiVo support to get additional assistance and the new representative said right away that this is a HD menu issue and attenuators were not needed and I could remove them. I complained that the previous rep had me waste money and wanted some credit or discount to use at the TiVo store, maybe for a $10 shirt or something. He put me on hold for a minute and came back, oh yes, I did need the attenuators. :rolleyes:

TiVo had no ETA on the fix and I complained that if I wanted the classic interface, I would have stuck with my four HDs! I also mentioned my 30 guarantee and what if I wait 2 months and their is no fix. He noted on my account, so if the fix isn't soon, I can return them.

I can't believe a major bug such as this slipped by QA. They mush have really rushed this out. Why? :mad:

-Jay

richsadams

04-15-2010, 01:33 AM

I have never gotten any RS errors of either kind and the TiVo rep was informed of this.Really? Zero errors? With FIOS? That is very unusual by itself...but really neither here nor there I suppose.

Historically TiVo has always been able to address issues like this and there's no reason to think that they won't this time. It's never soon enough but I'm pretty certain they will take care of it...hopefully sooner than later because it is quite frustrating at the moment.

Phantom Gremlin

04-16-2010, 08:30 PM

Really? Zero errors? With FIOS? That is very unusual by itself...but really neither here nor there I suppose.

My experience with errors on FiOS is very channel dependent. E.g. right now channel 502 KATU, frequency 513 MHz, has no RS corrected or uncorrected. But channel 780 Disney, frequency 327 MHz, has a few RS uncorrected and many many corrected.

Detailed info:
channel 502, 37 dB, 0 uncorrrected, 0 corrected, 475 seconds.
channel 780, 34 dB, 13 uncorrected, 1,390,000 corrected, 490 seconds.

The one with errors is national, the one without is local. Which probably means the two blocks of channels are being combined by Verizon locally. But even on the channel with reported errors, they occur infrequently enough that as a "casual" viewer I haven't noticed them in the program itself.

I haven't experimented with adding attenuators or diplexers, but I may try them just to see if I can get the error count to decrease.

richsadams

04-18-2010, 12:40 PM

My experience with errors on FiOS is very channel dependent. My experience as well. I haven't seen any issues (macroblocking, etc.) for a long time. As long as it behaves I don't think I'll try any tweaks (if it ain't broke..etc. - Sorry MPSAN :p ).

chriseng

05-18-2010, 07:31 PM

Anyone having this issue recently? These four channels have been exhibiting the macroblocking problem described in this thread for the past few days. Previously they worked fine. I don't have any attenuators, but I never needed them before. The diagnostics screen shows millions of RS Uncorrected after just a few minutes. SNR jumps from low 30s to single digits to teens, it's all over the place. Sometimes the Tivo even pops up the message saying it's trying to tune in the cable source. Any ideas? No other channels are affected as far as I can tell, just these (unfortunately, three of my kids' favorite shows are on 256, Nick Jr.).

richsadams

05-18-2010, 07:43 PM

I had a few issues the other day...some channels were unwatchable. I ended up rebooting (pulled the plug...waited 10 seconds and plugged it back in) and everything was fine. No idea what happened.

MPSAN

05-18-2010, 08:25 PM

I had a few issues the other day...some channels were unwatchable. I ended up rebooting (pulled the plug...waited 10 seconds and plugged it back in) and everything was fine. No idea what happened.

Yeah, if it ain't broke...

Anyway, mine seems to be OK, but I do see a little noise, or breakup, once in a while on a lot of stations. Audio is fine, and it is just for a few lines of video for a second or so and even then it is not a full line from left to right.

chriseng

05-18-2010, 08:34 PM

Yeah neither soft reset or hard reset fixed the problem. I'm skeptical that attenuation is needed since I've had this FioS/TiVo combination for months now and never had picture problems. But that's probably the next thing to try. I'm sure Verizon won't be able to help.

EDITED to add: Crap, it's a lot more channels than I thought. I just flipped through all of them. It seems to be certain frequencies:

Chan Freq

77 609k
107 609k

122 627k
123 627k
125 627k
132 627k
161 627k
163 627k
168 627k
189 627k
198 627k
259 627k

187 603k
213 603k
214 603k
218 603k
219 603k
222 603k
253 603k
254 603k
255 603k
256 603k
273 603k

641 591k
681 591k

664 597k
665 597k

Phantom Gremlin

05-19-2010, 10:29 PM

Anyone having this issue recently? These four channels have been exhibiting the macroblocking problem described in this thread for the past few days. Previously they worked fine.

AVSForum.com has local HDTV threads. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=453241)

Perhaps you will find some kindred spirits to commiserate with, or at least to confirm that others in your local area are seeing the same problems.

caughey

05-19-2010, 11:34 PM

Don't be too sure that Verizon won't be able to help, I've found them to be competent.

Also, check your coax cables and connections. I've only had pixelation problems with a specific frequency range of channels twice. Once it was fixed by replacing a cheap splitter, and once just by tightening a connection that had worked loose.

Good luck!

richsadams

05-20-2010, 01:26 AM

And someone mentioned earlier that it turned out to be their cell phone that was wrecking havoc? Once they turned it off things were good? There are certainly a lot of possibilities. With that many problematic channels I agree it's probably part of the cable system, a connector or possibly a failing cable card. I'd do some inspections of the various parts and pieces around the house...they don't last forever. If that doesn't turn up anything a call to VZ is in order IMHO.

chriseng

05-20-2010, 12:17 PM

Fixed! In case anyone was curious:

The technician they sent out had never seen this problem before, so I had to suggest the debugging steps once we got past "the signal is strong" -- swapping out cablecard, swapping out coax, swapping in STB for TiVO, etc. -- but eventually the culprit turned out to be the ONT. Naturally the last thing we tried.

richsadams

05-20-2010, 12:24 PM

Ovit311

05-21-2010, 08:46 PM

Old Tivo user but new to FIOS. Had the installer put an attenuator on the Tivo just in case any pixelation problems. So far so good...

richsadams

05-22-2010, 01:08 PM

Old Tivo user but new to FIOS. Had the installer put an attenuator on the Tivo just in case any pixelation problems. So far so good...Try removing it and see how things go...odds are you won't see any problems w/o it either. The need for attenuators went away over a year ago when VZ began dialing their signal strength back to reasonable levels.

MatthewH12

06-15-2010, 10:16 PM

wmcbrine

06-15-2010, 11:17 PM

Has anyone ever heard of a TivoHD with Fios using an MCard having an SNR of 37-38 on Tuner 0 with no pixelization, and a SNR of 25 on Tuner 1 with lots of macro-blocking, pixelization and channel tuning issues? Why does it only affect one tuner and not the other?Are they tuned to the same channel? If not, that's pretty normal, yeah. The channels don't have a consistent signal level; most of them are within spec, most of the time, but sometimes some of them go out, while others are fine.

If they are tuned to the same channel, then it sounds like a problem with the TiVo.

MatthewH12

06-16-2010, 01:17 AM

Are they tuned to the same channel? If not, that's pretty normal, yeah. The channels don't have a consistent signal level; most of them are within spec, most of the time, but sometimes some of them go out, while others are fine.

If they are tuned to the same channel, then it sounds like a problem with the TiVo.

It affects tuner 1 (whose snr is ~27)mno matter what channel its on, and does NOT affect tuner 0 (whose SNR is ~37-38), no matter what channel it is on. Tuner 1's signal is so low that it won't pull in a picture, yet tuner 0 will just fine. Already spoke to TiVo, they said it's probably the cable system, but why would it only affect one tuner? Also, my tivo upstairs (Same model, etc), doesn't have an issue with either tuner, and both SNR's on it are 37-38 constant.

It's weird =\.