Questions about upconverting 480 or 720 signal

[George Webster]

Would someone be so kind as to help me understand some things? Here is my situation.

I use a Series 3 TIVO to record from an over the air antenna. I will be receiving my first HDTV in a couple of days, a Toshiba 65HM167 with 1080P.

I understand that TIVO recordings in 1080i will display in 1080 on my new HDTV. What I would like to know is what happens with 720P content and 480i content. If I select 1080 fixed in the TIVO configuration menu will 720p and 480i content be upconverted by the TIVO to 1080?

If so, does that mean that 480i content will be converted from 4/3 to 16/9 format? If so, does that mean that the picture will NOT looked stretched out and make people fat?

Sorry for these newby questions. Also, is there any advantage to letting the Toshiba do the up converting to 1080? Disadvantages?

Any ideas on whether I would be forced to use component inputs or HDMI or what? Thats all I can think of for now. Trying to get a good head start on these things before unpacking my first HDTV.

[RonDawg]

I understand that TIVO recordings in 1080i will display in 1080 on my new HDTV. What I would like to know is what happens with 720P content and 480i content. If I select 1080 fixed in the TIVO configuration menu will 720p and 480i content be upconverted by the TIVO to 1080?

It depends on how you set up your TiVo. The THD and S3 models have three settings for resolution output:

Native: passes through whatever the cable company sends

Fixed: you select the resolution (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i)

Hybrid: SD recordings are output as 480p, HD recordings as 720p

These are controllable through the settings menu, or the "Format" button on the front of the box.

If so, does that mean that 480i content will be converted from 4/3 to 16/9 format? If so, does that mean that the picture will NOT looked stretched out and make people fat?

Assuming you set up the TiVo properly, you will also have the ability to switch the following modes:

Full: Every inch of screen is filled. With SD content on a widescreen TV, that means everybody looks fat. With HD content on a 4:3 TV, that means everybody looks tall and skinny.

Panel: The content is displayed as intended, with panels (bars) used to fill in the blanks. You can choose gray or black for the panels.

Zoom: Just like it says. Useful if the program you are watching is somehow double letterboxed (panels on all 4 sides).

Also, is there any advantage to letting the Toshiba do the up converting to 1080? Disadvantages?

You really won't know until you hook up the box. With my Sony I leave it in Native mode and let the TV do any necessary upconverting. Some cheaper TV's it may be better for the TiVo to do this.

Any ideas on whether I would be forced to use component inputs or HDMI or what?

Assuming you haven't run out of inputs, there is an advantage to using Component, as you won't run into HDCP handshaking issues. The advantage of HDMI is a simpler cabling procedure, and arguably a slightly better picture (though many say they can't see the difference).

I use HDMI but only because I ran out of Component inputs. When I save up for a Blu-Ray player that will go to HDMI and the TiVo "downgraded" to Component.

[jrm01]

I agree with RonDawg's comments with a few minor additions.

With Hybrid mode you have a choice of 720p Hybrid or 1080i Hybrid.

Also, based on my experience with Toshiba DLP (not this model) I would suggest that the TV does a better job of stretching the 4:3 content than Tivo (less stretching in center of picture), but not as good of a job of scaling as Tivo. Also, most DLP sets have a noticable delay and flutter when switching input resolutions (720 to 1080, e.g.).

You'll have to try various options, but my guess is that you will get best results with either 1080 Hybrid, or 1080 Fixed.

[CharlesH]

Aren't there three hybrid modes? All three convert 480i to 480p, but there is one that converts all HD to 720p, one that converts all HD to 1080i, and one that passes HD unchanged. This last mode has always been in the TiVoHD, but only recently was added to the Series3. It is very useful for those 1080i TVs that won't accept 480i over HDMI.

[Mars Rocket]

Zoom: Just like it says. Useful if the program you are watching is somehow double letterboxed (panels on all 4 sides).


This mode is useful for SD shows that are broadcast letterboxed. Your TV likely has something similar, and in some cases you have to try both the TVs and the TiVos different modes to find something that best fills the screen without losing any picture area.

[jrm01]

Your right. That one is just called Hybrid. However, I would still offer the same suggested solutions.

[George Webster]

Fixed: you select the resolution (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i)

So that means that if I set the TIVO to 1080 fixed the TIVO will output 1080 to my HDTV. I understand that.

Full: Every inch of screen is filled. With SD content on a widescreen TV, that means everybody looks fat.

That was what I was hoping to avoid. So you seem to be saying that with my HDTV set to native there is no way to get a full screen WITHOUT everybody looking fat, even though the TIVO would be outputting 1080? Correct?

With my Sony I leave it in Native mode and let the TV do any necessary up converting.

So if I do the same with my HDTV I still cannot get full screen in 1080 without fat people? Meaning I have to watch SD content in 4/3. Correct?

If so, soes that mean the picture looks much better than if it was in 480?

Sorry for sounding like I am clueless but I am so new to all of this. Thanks for your reply.

[George Webster]

Also, based on my experience with Toshiba DLP (not this model) I would suggest that the TV does a better job of stretching the 4:3 content than Tivo (less stretching in center of picture), but not as good of a job of scaling as Tivo.

That is good to know (Tv does better stretching)

Could you please explain what scaling means? Thanks.

[RonDawg]

Aren't there three hybrid modes? All three convert 480i to 480p, but there is one that converts all HD to 720p, one that converts all HD to 1080i, and one that passes HD unchanged. This last mode has always been in the TiVoHD, but only recently was added to the Series3. It is very useful for those 1080i TVs that won't accept 480i over HDMI.

This is the exact quote from the TiVo HD owners manual (which I did not have handy when I posted), page vi:

Hybrid When you use a hybrid format, the DVR converts standard broadcast signals to 480p. It displays 1080p and 1080i broadcasts at 1080i, and all 720p broadcasts at 720p. Hybrid formats are recommended if your TV supports 1080i and 720p but not 480i.

[Interpol]

That is good to know (Tv does better stretching)

Could you please explain what scaling means? Thanks.

Scaling = converting from one resolution to another (i.e., 480 lines to 1080 lines).

Deinterlacing = converting from interlaced to progressive (i.e., 1080i to 1080p).

[RonDawg]

So you seem to be saying that with my HDTV set to native there is no way to get a full screen WITHOUT everybody looking fat, even though the TIVO would be outputting 1080? Correct?

The Native/Fixed/Hybrid and the Full/Panel/Zoom modes are different things, and work independently.

If you use Native mode, there's no reason that SD content won't show up properly sized with bars on the side, so long as you use the Panel mode as well and your TV isn't set to automatically stretch the image. If you use Native with Full, then yes everybody will look a bit portly.

So if I do the same with my HDTV I still cannot get full screen in 1080 without fat people? Meaning I have to watch SD content in 4/3. Correct?

If so, soes that mean the picture looks much better than if it was in 480?


If you watch widescreen content (which for us is HiDef, nobody AFAIK broadcasts SD widescreen w/o letterboxing here in the US) in Full mode, everybody appears normal. If you watch standard def programs, which for us is broadcast automatically in 4:3 mode, then yes everybody will look fat in Full mode.

You do have to be careful when watching SD programming in 1080i or 720p. An increasing number of standard definition programs are being automatically letterboxed, and when upconverted to HiDef the TV or TiVo will interpret the bars at the top and bottom as being part of the original picture, and will add bars on the side for widescreen TV's. What you end up with is double letterboxing or a "picture frame" effect. Zoom mode will take care of this, but you lose resolution. It would be better to watch SD programming in 480i or 480p (thus the Native or Hybrid mode may be your solution).

If there's a Best Buy or Circuit City or other electronics store near you that has a Tivo HD or S3 hooked up to a widescreen TV, I recommend you go there and experiment with it, it's a lot easier than trying to explain if you're not familiar with how widescreen works.

[George Webster]

Scaling = converting from one resolution to another (i.e., 480 lines to 1080 lines).

Deinterlacing = converting from interlaced to progressive (i.e., 1080i to 1080p).

Thanks. One more question. What resolution does the series 3 use for the program description menus when in 1080 fixed?

[George Webster]

If you use Native mode, there's no reason that SD content won't show up properly sized with bars on the side, so long as you use the Panel mode as well and your TV isn't set to automatically stretch the image.

Thanks, up until your explanation I had no idea what panel mode was all about.

You do have to be careful when watching SD programming in 1080i or 720p. An increasing number of standard definition programs are being automatically letterboxed, and when upconverted to HiDef the TV or TiVo will interpret the bars at the top and bottom as being part of the original picture, and will add bars on the side for widescreen TV's. What you end up with is double letterboxing or a "picture frame" effect. Zoom mode will take care of this, but you lose resolution. It would be better to watch SD programming in 480i or 480p (thus the Native or Hybrid mode may be your solution).

A brief note about the above paragraph, for some reason it did NOT show up in your post. I could only see it when I pressed the quote button.

Thank you so much for that heads up. My first HDTV arrives in about 6 hours and it is now clear that I have much to learn.

If there's a Best Buy or Circuit City or other electronics store near you that has a Tivo HD or S3 hooked up to a widescreen TV, I recommend you go there and experiment with it, it's a lot easier than trying to explain if you're not familiar with how widescreen works.

Unfortunately the stores in my area, Best Buy and Circuit City, only display Tivo's on a shelf and not plugged into a signal feed or hooked up to TV at all. Trying to get them to demostrate is an exercise in frustration. When will these dim wits understand what a great product TIVO is and start really showing the masses how cool TIVO can be? (Retorical question)

Anyhow, your suggestion works for me because my 65 HDTV will be delivered in about six more hours. Then I can begin my experiments. I was just trying to get a heads up running start. Unfortuanaly, it would appear that my hope was wrong. I hoped that upconverting 480 to 1080 meant that the screen would go wide with no fat people. From what you and some others have said it is starting to become clear to me that expermenting with the TIVO output settings, PLUS tinkering with wide modes on the HDTV will be the only thing that tells me whether I find the display of fatter people tollerable or not.

Thanks for all the time you put into carefully explaining your answers. That was very nice of you.

[Interpol]

Thanks. One more question. What resolution does the series 3 use for the program description menus when in 1080 fixed?

If you have your Tivo set for 1080i fixed, then everything (live/recorded content, menus, guides, etc.) will be displayed in 1080i.

[jrm01]

Unfortunately the stores in my area, Best Buy and Circuit City, only display Tivo's on a shelf and not plugged into a signal feed or hooked up to TV at all. Trying to get them to demostrate is an exercise in frustration. When will these dim wits understand what a great product TIVO is and start really showing the masses how cool TIVO can be? (Retorical question)



George,

I am one of those dimwits who sell Tivos (and TVs) at BB. Our arrangement with Tivo is to set them up in standalone demo mode in a front prominent spot.

Tivo accounted for less than .1% of our revenue so far this year. If we took more time to set them up and demonstrate them better we could probably double our sales, thus accounting for .2%. Hardly worth the time, effort or floor space.

[RonDawg]

A brief note about the above paragraph, for some reason it did NOT show up in your post. I could only see it when I pressed the quote button.

That was a late addition. I had probably just added it when you hit the quote button.

I hoped that upconverting 480 to 1080 meant that the screen would go wide with no fat people. From what you and some others have said it is starting to become clear to me that expermenting with the TIVO output settings, PLUS tinkering with wide modes on the HDTV will be the only thing that tells me whether I find the display of fatter people tollerable or not.

Unfortunately anytime you stretch a picture outside of its intended aspect ratio, it's going to distort the image. Some TV's will stretch the image disproportionately, meaning the middle is left relatively untouched and increases the stretch as you get to the sides. As long as the people stay closer to the middle they look relatively normal, but images towards the edges look quite distorted. Some people find this more tolerable than constantly looking at people who look fatter than usual. I personally find bars on the sides more tolerable than any sort of stretching.

Thanks for all the time you put into carefully explaining your answers. That was very nice of you.

You're quite welcome.

[George Webster]

A question, but first some background.

A have had the Toshiba 65HM167 for one day. I am feeding it with a TIVO high definition series 3 with an over the air antenna. The TIVO can be set to output:

1) Native
2) 480i or 480P
3) 720P
4) 1080i

When I set the TIVO for native then 4/3 programs are displayed correctly in 4/3 and all other content should be outputted as it was received. IE 720P = 720P etc.

I have read on the forums that if a TIVO is set to native then I would be relying on the 65HM167 to do upconverting to 1080P. however, unlike the TIVO where there is a menu for selecting the resolution output, I cannot find any such menu on the 65HM167. The owners manual and the screen menus do not show a resolution selection screen anywhere, unless I somehow missed it.

So all I can think of is that the 65HM167 probably automatically converts all signals, whether they be 480i or 480P or 720P or 1080i to 1080P before displaying it on the screen.

Do I have this right or am I missing something?

[jrm01]

That Tv will upconvert and display at it's Native Resolution, which in this case is 1080p.

You'll want to experiment on this, but I have found that the Toshiba DLPs stutter and flutter when switching input resolutions (i.e. switching from 720p to 1080i). Therefore, I find it better to use Hybrid 1080, which would output the HD at 1080i and the SD at 480p. You could also go with 1080i Fixed, but I think you lose the stretching capability with SD.