TiVoHD vs. HTPC? Hmmm...

[ACraigL]

I have 2 S2 TiVos and a Comcast HD DVR for recording HD. I'm using that HD box more and more, despite the limited recording time. I have lifetime on one TiVo, and paying the $6.99 Multi-unit discount on the other.

I've been keeping the TiVos around because I enjoy the MRV and Media features -- paticularly music streaming -- but that has had inconsistent performance for the last few months due to the recent service update(s). I'm also growing less accepting of the SD quality on my HD TVs.

So while I've been considering a HD TiVo -- something that will cost over $500 even if I transfer the lifetime -- I've been doing some research into building a HTPC.

I've spec'd out a pretty decent DIY system on Newegg.com and it will cost roughly $480.00 for everything. I have a few extra licenses for Vista Ultimate so I will get the Media Center functionality for free. Obviously I get more than just the DVR (gaming, email, internet, etc.) and I will maintain file sharing between PCs.

I'm on the fence because TiVo has been such a way of life for us here. Has anyone else considered this? What direction did you go?

[dswallow]

You're not going to get access to any HD material except what you receive over the air. No CableCARD for your home theater PC. No encrypted digital cable channels at all, even SD.

And frankly the usability of all the various Windows and Linux options you might install on your hardware are just nowhere near as polished or reliable as what the TiVo receivers provide. And they're definitely not all that user-friendly to install and maintain.

[ACraigL]

You're not going to get access to any HD material except what you receive over the air. No CableCARD for your home theater PC. No encrypted digital cable channels at all, even SD.

And frankly the usability of all the various Windows and Linux options you might install on your hardware are just nowhere near as polished or reliable as what the TiVo receivers provide. And they're definitely not all that user-friendly to install and maintain.

dswallow, thanks for the input. But that's not exactly true. My intention -- which I should have mentioned -- is to use IR blasters to control the Comcast HD box in the same way my S2 TiVos do now. That way I get all channels, as I do now, including the HD and onDemand capability when I want it.

As for Windows itself, I'm not sure if you've seen the Vista Media Center, but its awfully slick, very polished and very easy to use. I agree it may be harder to maintain overall, but a windows-only box (no 3rd-party apps) is usually pretty stable. Also, I'm clearly not worried about a technical challenge since I'm building a computer here.

[SullyND]

I should have mentioned -- is to use IR blasters to control the Comcast HD box in the same way my S2 TiVos do now.

And how exactly are you thinking you'll get HD video into your computer?

[ACraigL]

And how exactly are you thinking you'll get HD video into your computer?

Eeek! Yeah, I took a leap of faith on that one. I forgot that you can't encode the HD output from the box. I suppose there is a possibility to record from Firewire, but that limits the tuner functionality a bit.

I have a Hauppuge HVR-1600 to record HD on my main PC now, but yes, that's QAM signal. Since it came with IR blasters I had it in my head that it could control the cable box -- and that's true, but I forgot about recording the HD output :(

Thanks for setting me straight -- now I'm depressed! I guess Im back to waiting for TiVo on the Comcast boxes.

[JJ]

Vista Media Center
is polished enough to replace TiVo and has no monthly fee associated with it. There are systems that built with slots for cableards, but are not (yet) a DIY propsition. If you are looking for a solution consider the Gigabyte system board as a HTPC basis. I liked it enough that I built myself four more. There are a few ATSC playback challenges with the ATI x1250 chipset you need to be aware of. See the Home Theater PC area at AVSForum for a lot of details...

[greg_burns]

So while I've been considering a HD TiVo -- something that will cost over $500 even if I transfer the lifetime --

I don't understand.

You can buy a TivoHD for ~$255 from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000RZDBM2/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top) and go to tivo's web site and move service from one of your S2s (the non lifetime one) to it. You will continue to pay the $6.95.

www.tivo.com->Manage My Account->Change Service Number

[ACraigL]

Vista Media Center
is polished enough to replace TiVo and has no monthly fee associated with it. There are systems that built with slots for cableards, but are not (yet) a DIY propsition. If you are looking for a solution consider the Gigabyte system board as a HTPC basis. I liked it enough that I built myself four more. There are a few ATSC playback challenges with the ATI x1250 chipset you need to be aware of. See the Home Theater PC area at AVSForum for a lot of details...

That's exactly the MB I had selected:
GIGABYTE GA-MA69GM-S2H (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16813128056)

Thanks for the AVSForum link.. I'll be sure to check that out.

[ACraigL]

I don't understand.

You can buy a TivoHD for ~$255 from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000RZDBM2/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top) and go to tivo's web site and move service from one of your S2s (the non lifetime one) to it. You will continue to pay the $6.95.

www.tivo.com->Manage My Account->Change Service Number

greg_burns, I had not even considered that as a possibility! I was so focused on the the lifetimed tivo that I was unaware that I could continue the MSD. That's defintitely an option I will explore.

Does the TiVoHD require the cablecard(s) to record? I'm assuming that I can't use the cablebox/IR blaster combo like I (wrongly) suggested for the HTPC comment above.

I'm still struggling with the fact that I will need the cablebox and the TiVoHD w/Cablecards. For an extra $200 I can get QAM HD and all the added Media Center/PC functionality.

Clearly I'm torn. I've had TiVo since 2003 and really love it. We're a TiVo household. I just don't know what makes the most sense at the moment -- maybe I should simply wait.

[greg_burns]

Does the TiVoHD require the cablecard(s) to record? I'm assuming that I can't use the cablebox/IR blaster combo like I (wrongly) suggested for the HTPC comment above.

No, you cannot use cablebox/IR with TivoHD/S3.

But, yes, w/o cablecards you can still record OTA signals (both digital and analog). You can also record analog cable.

There is also the ability to manually record (w/o channel info) the unecnrypted QAM channels your receive via cable as well. (Rehashed in many other threads)

I have limited basic cable (w/ cablecards which I pay nothing for) that gives me all my locals in HD, plus some others like A&E, TBS, Food, H&G, etc. I can receive about half of the locals OTA, but needed cable for the others.

[astrohip]

Vista Media Center
is polished enough to replace TiVo <snip>
This is my laugh for the day. My TiVo is a workhorse, working 24/7 with so few glitches I can count them on one hand in five years.

Windows . . .? I use it every day, and would no more trust my valuable TV recording chores to it than I would my life. Glitches? With regularity.

[jebbbz]

This is my laugh for the day. My TiVo is a workhorse, working 24/7 with so few glitches I can count them on one hand in five years.

Windows . . .? I use it every day, and would no more trust my valuable TV recording chores to it than I would my life. Glitches? With regularity.

It depends on one's tolerance for glitches. There were no TiVos capable of HD back in early 2006 so I went with a modest HTPC running XP and BeyondTV (Cox in Phoenix still doesn't have enough exclusive HD content for me to worry about anything beyond OTA HD though it's getting close). The PC is not as reliable as my S2 but since it is dedicated to TV I have few problems with it. It took a while to get things right (video drivers, in particular) but I am now happy with it. Once in a while (weekly to monthly) I may have to restart BTV's GUI but the recording engine has been highly reliable.

Perhaps digital cable and tuners with CableCards would be another matter on a Vista machine but I think you are a bit hasty to dismiss dedicated PCs. Its the cost of PC hardware and software approved for CableCard that deters me.

(Even these glitches might disappear but for my using this machine to edit and transcode my recordings, too, which is not possible with TiVo. Cutting out commercials and transcoding to high quality DivX lets me store a "one hour" HD show in a one gigabyte file that I can archive easily. I like the flexibility of a PC.)

[bonnie_raitt]

(Even these glitches might disappear but for my using this machine to edit and transcode my recordings, too, which is not possible with TiVo. Cutting out commercials and transcoding to high quality DivX lets me store a "one hour" HD show in a one gigabyte file that I can archive easily. I like the flexibility of a PC.)

I'd like to preface my comments with the fact that I'm a Windows fan, stockholder, and professional. $250 for a TiVo HD is a much better option. It's reliable, flexible, and not as prone to problems as a PC.

With TTG activated now you can copy show to your PC, edit out commercials, and transcode to high quality DivX or burn to a std DVD.

I do use WMC from time to time from one of my Vista machines when the occasion arises using my XBOX 360.

However, for set it and forget it TV recording, I think the HDTiVo is the way to go.

[ACraigL]

I agree a dedicated PC is more stable. Part of my concern is that with one TiVoHD and one S2 I only have one-way transfers (MRV). If I get the HTPC and a media reciever I have more options. 2 HD TiVos seems cost-prohibitive, in my opinion.

[JJ]

Someday
I may consider a TiVoHD once the SDV resolver / QAM program info issues are worked out. Since much of our viewing is OTA and not Comcast, my local Evil Cable Company (ECC) the difference is minimal between Vista Media Center and TiVoHD. Deriding someones choice simply because it is not TiVo seems popular but shows that some folks may have not fairly evaluated the competition. Spreading FUD regarding Windows based on someone elses biased reports is unfair. I spent the time to reasonably examine my options and chose to replace eight DirecTiVos with five VMC's and two Dish VIP622's. This may not be the choice for everyone but it was the right choice for me.

My Series1 lifetime grandfathered may someday be replaced by TiVoHD but not until TiVo crawls out of bed with the ECC's forcing customers to use cable cards while the unencrypted QAM signal is available and the program data for OTA (essentially the same data) is alreasy available to the box.

A major ability that Window has and TiVo does not is the ability to manually associate program data to the broadcast station. While I don't use the ECC downrezzed signal this works very well with my own distribution channels so associating Fox5 to ECC 5.806 (until they change it again in the never ending game of hide and seek) is a rea onably simple matter.

TiVo was like dating the prom queen back in 1999 but she is now eight years older, and her charms are fading. Who (fanboys excluded) hasn't looked at the fresher models and thought about trading up...

[qz3fwd]

Having both HTPC and now 2 Tivo S3's, I can say that the media center is not ready for prime time consumer use, heck I dont even think they are shipping working cablecard pc's yet. Nevertheless, I started out in PC land and just within the last month did I take the Tivo plunge now that the S3's can be had for a reasonable sum. Goodbye HTPC.

[ZeoTiVo]

Who (fanboys excluded) hasn't looked at the fresher models and thought about trading up...

that would be the people who actually do use cable for digital and HD and need a cable card solution. To sit in some OTA HTPC land and say all else is old and obsolete seems a lot more fanboy to me than the simple realization that HTPC does not fit everyone's needs just like TiVo does not fit everyone's needs.

[TiVo Steve]

Eeek! Yeah, I took a leap of faith on that one. I forgot that you can't encode the HD output from the box. I suppose there is a possibility to record from Firewire, but that limits the tuner functionality a bit.

I have a Hauppuge HVR-1600 to record HD on my main PC now, but yes, that's QAM signal. Since it came with IR blasters I had it in my head that it could control the cable box -- and that's true, but I forgot about recording the HD output :(

Thanks for setting me straight -- now I'm depressed! I guess Im back to waiting for TiVo on the Comcast boxes.

You can "capture" a "TS" file (transport stream" through the firewire port on Motorola cable boxes. Use the D-VHS driver in Windows. Go to the AVS forum for more info.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=403695

Good luck.:)

[Xab]

I was actually just in this same boat, I had a RS-TX20 until early 2006, then built a HTPC since TiVo was unable to handle HD video and I felt its interface was sluggish. My HTPC worked well, and the Vista media center was pretty and fast, but it would often have problems like jerky video or just slowness. It was also pretty noisy.

I picked up a TiVo HD to see how things have progressed in the TiVo world and I'm still up in the air as to whether I'm keeping the HD. The interface is still very sluggish compared to a Media Center PC, but the TiVo handles HD video orders of magnitude better (as far as my experience has been, HD Tuner cards for PC's are next to nonfunctional), and it also has support for CableCards which I plan to take advantage of in the future. I also don't care for the fact that it takes a long time for TiVo to change channels, and I am often greeted with the grey screen and a "Waiting for data from Cable input" message before TV starts.

[ah30k]

You can "capture" a "TS" file (transport stream" through the firewire port on Motorola cable boxes. Encrypted premium content?

[dbtom]

I'd been looking forward to using CableCard tuners on a Vista PC for a long time. The dream is one central media server spitting out content to multiple TVs.

The reality is that this dream is still far off (at least for me). I happened to be pricing out these systems this morning. You can't build anything comparable to a TivoHD for under $2500.

I use Vista Media Center for over the air content. If you have no need for CableCard, this is a great solution. For the majority, who will want access to HD premiums via CableCard or some future solution, it's not price competitive to use anything other than Tivo or a cable company box. An additional consideration is power consumption. TivoHD or S3 or cable box will be much more efficient here.

Still I hold out hope that in 2 - 3 years, Vista will be a viable solution for CableCard use.

[astrohip]

I also don't care for the fact that it takes a long time for TiVo to change channels, and I am often greeted with the grey screen and a "Waiting for data from Cable input" message before TV starts.
I wonder if there is something in your setup causing this. My channel switch time is less than a second. And I have never had a gray screen or "Waiting" message. I use OTA and cablecards, and regularly switch between OTA<>cable. This includes premium content (HBO, etc), std cable, OTA, HD, SD, yada yada. Never a pause or gray screen. I also have one S3 on HDMI, and the other on component cable. Both have the same response.

[Mach1_8]

If you're interested in the HTPC route, you should take a look at HD Homerun. It works well with Vista to record QAM programming. Another option that is commonly overlooked is using the Xbox 360 as an extender. If you already have a PC running Vista, you can hook an Xbox up to the network and it will emulate the VMC interface. I had great success with this setup earlier this year. I was able to watch HDTV and use the DVRMS toolbox functions (i.e. comm skip) with no problem at all. I now have a S3 TiVo and use the MCX for music/pictures mostly.

[ZeoTiVo]

There was a very small blurb in December GameInformer about Netflix working with Xbox or PS3 on delivering HD movies. No mention of TiVo in the blurb, but it is a gaming mag.

[ACraigL]

Mach1_8,

Thanks for the suggestion. I have a Hauppauge HRV-1600 in my home PC now and it's great for OTA or QAM HD. I was thinking about an HRV-1800 since the DYI setup I've spec'd supports PCIe. The networked tuner idea is interesting, but as an HTPC, I definitely want everything internal to the system.

I have considered media center extenders, particularly the upcoming one from Pinnacle:
Pinnacle ShowCenter 250HD (http://www.pinnaclesys.com/PublicSite/us/Products/Consumer+Products/Digital+Media+Adapters/Digital+Media+Player/ShowCenter+250+HD.htm).

I love the idea, but I lose the tuner functionality. I'm also hesitant to get another gaming system, espcially when I don't want it for gaming. That's like buying a refrigerator just to hang your kids' artwork.

[Mach1_8]

Mach1_8,

Thanks for the suggestion. I have a Hauppauge HRV-1600 in my home PC now and it's great for OTA or QAM HD. I was thinking about an HRV-1800 since the DYI setup I've spec'd supports PCIe. The networked tuner idea is interesting, but as an HTPC, I definitely want everything internal to the system.

I have considered media center extenders, particularly the upcoming one from Pinnacle:
Pinnacle ShowCenter 250HD (http://www.pinnaclesys.com/PublicSite/us/Products/Consumer+Products/Digital+Media+Adapters/Digital+Media+Player/ShowCenter+250+HD.htm).

I love the idea, but I lose the tuner functionality. I'm also hesitant to get another gaming system, espcially when I don't want it for gaming. That's like buying a refrigerator just to hang your kids' artwork.

Yep...certainly a lot of options there. It's actually one of the reasons I went with TiVo in the end...just seemed like too much to process. I'm interested to see what your solution will be though. I'm a huge fan of HTPC's. Someday I'll have one again, but for now not so much. That being said, don't give up on the extender idea. I loved using my office computer to serve up Media Center to my living room over our network. Kinda geeky, but very cool. Good luck!

[JJ]

Personally
I have much love for the ten AverMedia A180 PCI cards I'm using. If I was going QAM the HD HomeRun product would be completely irrestable. It would seem to be the best solution based on multiple user reports, although I have not yet used it myself. If I were changing to QAM (or starting over fresh) tomorrow, the choice would be clear for me...

[ACraigL]

Just saw this... not a perfect comparison, but good observations:

Cablecard Vista Media Center PC vs.Tivo Series 3:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/battlemodo/cablecard-vista-media-center-pc-vs-tivo-series-3-262359.php

[JJ]

Just saw this... not a perfect comparison, but good observations:

Cablecard Vista Media Center PC vs.Tivo Series 3:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/battlemodo/cablecard-vista-media-center-pc-vs-tivo-series-3-262359.php


Makes me
happy to be classified "PC for ultimate media geeks", I can live with that...

[dilorc]

I was a long time Tivo user. I bought a Series 1 back in 2000. We've been Tivoless for over a year. I now have a central media server and use Mythtv throughout the house (2 TVs).

It works well. There were some definite growing pains. It took a while until I was totally comfortable removing the Tivos. Installing Mythtv is not as hard as it used to be. There are custom linux distributions that make things much easier.

For recording HD, I use a HD Homerun. I think it is the best choice for recording HD. I was using PCI cards prior to that, but it was a lot of trouble to get the drivers to work. The HD Homerun is so much easier. I can record 2 HD shows and watch a 3rd with no problems. For SD recording, I use a Plextor M402U. It's a USB box that captures video and stores it as MPEG-4.

Overall I'm happy. The wife even likes it. I do wish there was a way to record encrypted HD channels. All I get now is the locals (via QAM).

[bkdtv]

A TiVoHD with 802.11g wireless and lifetime service is now available for $699 (http://www3.tivo.com/tivo-promo/show.do?pg=/buytivo/hdgift.html). Add a 1Tb drive upgrade for $260. Your total is around $960 plus tax for a 1TB TiVo with no monthly fees.

HDHomerun is $170. Add a 1Tb drive upgrade for $260. Assuming you already have an existing PC and a copy of Windows Vista Home Premium or Windows Media Center, then you've saved $430, but given up the ability to record high-definition cable channels like ESPN-HD, ESPN2-HD, TNT-HD, SciFi-HD, USA-HD, FX-HD, DiscoveryHD, HistoryHD, CSN/FSN HD, VersusHD, HBO-HD, SHO-HD, STARZ-HD, etc.

[sdzc]

I don't understand.

You can buy a TivoHD for ~$255 from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000RZDBM2/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top) and go to tivo's web site and move service from one of your S2s (the non lifetime one) to it. You will continue to pay the $6.95.

www.tivo.com->Manage My Account->Change Service Number

Greg,

You have provided a lot of good info since I have been on this forum, but thanks for this. I had no idea you could do this. I would like to upgrade to an HDTivo, but did not want to pay a higher monthly fee or have to spend $399 on lifetime. This will be perfect. Might pick up a new box this XMas (unless Tivo takes this option away). Just a question though.

If I get a series 3 and do this, would I still qualify for the current rebate?

[greg_burns]

If I get a series 3 and do this, would I still qualify for the current rebate?

I do not think so.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=374927

I am just as confused with the pricing, so I'll leave it to the others who seem able to grok this stuff better. :D

[bonnie_raitt]

Overall I'm happy. The wife even likes it. I do wish there was a way to record encrypted HD channels. All I get now is the locals (via QAM).

There is - HD TiVo

[ACraigL]

Well, I took the plunge and built myself an HTPC and guess what... I love it. It was more complicated to configure, particularly because I went with the HDHomeRun, but worth it in the end. (And it was a fun project for me and my son as well :)) I get all my locals plus several additional channels in HD. For all others I can use the Comcast DVR.

The real win, and what I think I was after all along, is the superior media capabilities. On the same wireless 802.11g (pre-n) network, I get flawless media streaming. Since the last few service updates, TiVo was horribly inconsistent when it came to music (stutters, skips, pauses) and paused video transfers.

With my new rig, I can transfer video immediately, and skip to any part of the video with no waiting. Music (and visualiuzations) are great, and the slide show feature truly puts the TiVo to shame. Icing on the cake is I get a full internet browser on my 42" plasma -- a nice addition if I miss a network show and want to watch online content in the family room (or just surf the net). The wife has also "approved" of the VMC UI, something she's not done since we got our first TiVo so many years ago. It's slick, responsive and intuitive.

Not a bad option at slighly over $500.00. Now I know there are those that will say I should have gotten the TiVoHD for that money... maybe they're right, but I wanted to try something new and I'm glad I did. I'm copying/cataloging all my DVDs, sharing videos and photos, viewing callerID, *automatically skipping commercials*, and more -- and it's quieter than my TiVo S2! :rolleyes:

TiVo is exceptionally good at recording video, no question (though I still miss 1 out of every 10 recording due to IR blasters). I feel like that it's added so many ancillary features (connected media, etc) -- and it clearly had to to complete -- that the poor fella just can't keep up. I do love TiVo, but I think my needs as well as my expectations are evolving.

My next step is to get a media extender to share all the content (and a fraction of the cost) in the master bedroom. Still waiting for those to come out. In the meantime, my TiVo days may be numbered... we'll see.

[flatcurve]

I think if you know exactly what you want, understand the limitations, and are willing to pay the premium, then the HTPC is a good way to go. Sounds like you did, and congrats. Although you're in a minority of people who prefer features over content. HTPCs will never be able to compete with even a generic DVR for content... and that's why I can't justify spending the money to build one, as much as a would love to.

P.S. I love the HDHomeRun too. It's a great little gadget, especially at that price. What I love about it is that any networked computer in my house can use it. That basically increased the number of "sets" in my household by four... too bad I can't get HBO on it.

[ACraigL]

flatcurve, you make a good point, but I'm not really giving up anything. I have the Comcast DVR for basic recording and watching all channels and the HTPC for everything else. Seems like a good balance (to me). Personally, I'm not sure where a TiVo fits in my current configuration.

[MickeS]

Not a bad option at slighly over $500.00.

Would you mind listing the parts you used? I am asking because first of all I'd like to know how the hell you did it so cheaply, and second, I've been thinking for a long time about putting something together using HDHomeRun (I only watch OTA HD currently), so would be good to see what's needed. I'm thinking of using my existing PC as HTPC and get a new one for the other computing, since this one is a "cube" mini ATX model, and is very quiet AND has component outputs. I'm guessing that'd let me cut the price of it quite a bit too. :) Every time I see a thread about it, I get excited, but then I lose interest later on... we'll see how it goes this time. ;)

flatcurve, you make a good point, but I'm not really giving up anything. I have the Comcast DVR for basic recording and watching all channels and the HTPC for everything else. Seems like a good balance (to me). Personally, I'm not sure where a TiVo fits in my current configuration.

A TiVoHD would be somewhere inbetween - you'd get rid of the cable box and the HTPC, but have a "regular PC" to store content on, transfered from the Tivo. My transfers work great though, so I've had a different experience.

[ACraigL]

Case: nMEDIAPC HTPC 500BAR: $169.99
Mobo: GIGABYTE GA-MA69GM-S2H: $79.99
(awesome board -- HDMI, Component, Digital coax, toslink, etc)
PSU: Antec TruePower Trio (430W): $68.99
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 X2 5200+ (65W): $109.99
Memory: G.SKILL 2GB DDR800: $46.99
DVD: SAMSUNG 20X DVD±R DVD SATA SH-S203B: $30.99

This totals $506.94. I had a 500 GB SATA drive I was using for backup, so you would need to add another $100 for that. I intended to use the Hauppauge HVR-1600 from my office pc, but in the end, I added the HDHomeRun, so technically, this bumps to $676.73, $776.73 including the drive (which I had and did not pay for -- at least not at the same time).

I got more case and processesor than was truly needed, but I hate to skimp on these things... particularly the case. (The case came with a remote and IR receiver which was nice). It's gotta look nice in the my home theater setup :). But I could have easily save $100 on this if I wanted to.

So a little more than the $500 I mentioned :o but still cheap for a full-on media PC -- quite a powerful one at that. Everything came from NewEgg.com.

[JJ]

Case: nMEDIAPC HTPC 500BAR: $169.99
Mobo: GIGABYTE GA-MA69GM-S2H: $79.99
(awesome board -- HDMI, Component, Digital coax, toslink, etc)
PSU: Antec TruePower Trio (430W): $68.99
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 X2 5200+ (65W): $109.99
Memory: G.SKILL 2GB DDR800: $46.99
DVD: SAMSUNG 20X DVD±R DVD SATA SH-S203B: $30.99


I went
a little cheaper for my systems:
Case: used some on hand stuff that fits the rack, average price $40
Mobo: GIGABYTE GA-MA69GM-S2H: The 'everything' board, $80 New Egg
CPU: AMD 5000+ low wattage, $110 New Egg
PSU: used on hand and some $25 Micro Center special replacements
Memory: on sale various manufacturers, average price $40 after rebate
DVD: DVD-ROM $20, I don't burn on these machines
HDTV: AverMedia A80 x2 averaged out to each $40 on eBay, $80 for two
Vista Media Center: Home Premium Edition $80 on sale @ Micro Center
Remote: Various brands HP, Gateway, Microsoft, Dell $40 eBay
Drive: Seagate SATA 500GB, $120

So $605 plus 40tax a machine for me, blended over five machines. The bones of my original three machines have been repurposed to other uses...

[MickeS]

Case: nMEDIAPC HTPC 500BAR: $169.99
Mobo: GIGABYTE GA-MA69GM-S2H: $79.99
(awesome board -- HDMI, Component, Digital coax, toslink, etc)
PSU: Antec TruePower Trio (430W): $68.99
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 X2 5200+ (65W): $109.99
Memory: G.SKILL 2GB DDR800: $46.99
DVD: SAMSUNG 20X DVD±R DVD SATA SH-S203B: $30.99

This totals $506.94. I had a 500 GB SATA drive I was using for backup, so you would need to add another $100 for that. I intended to use the Hauppauge HVR-1600 from my office pc, but in the end, I added the HDHomeRun, so technically, this bumps to $676.73, $776.73 including the drive (which I had and did not pay for -- at least not at the same time).

I got more case and processesor than was truly needed, but I hate to skimp on these things... particularly the case. (The case came with a remote and IR receiver which was nice). It's gotta look nice in the my home theater setup :). But I could have easily save $100 on this if I wanted to.

So a little more than the $500 I mentioned :o but still cheap for a full-on media PC -- quite a powerful one at that. Everything came from NewEgg.com.

I figured the $500 was a little too good to be true ;), but since I already have most of the stuff I'd need for a basic HTPC it'll come in under that anyway...
So, the PC I have is an AMD 64 3700+ with 2 GB RAM and on-board video, and a 275W PSU. Does the HDHomeRun do all the actual video processing, so the computer simply displays it, or how does it work? And is it dual tuner? If that's the case, I think what I have should work, no?

[ACraigL]

HDHomeRun is dual-tuner. It's a networked tuner device so as long as you have 100GB network, you will be fine. It streams the digital video over ethernet from one or two coax connnections. There are 2 ways to connect it... over your network or directly to PC. The former will allow all networked PCs to see the tuners, the latter, will provide a closed network for a single PC. This was optimal in my case as I have a wireless network and I'm pretty certain it would not have sustained 2 simultaneous streams of HD content.

Read all about it here: http://www.silicondust.com

I think your specs are fine, if you never upgrade the video that is. Post back if you get it working!

[cascadejwj]

ACraigL, do you have any idea of the power consumption of your machine when it is active? And do you leave your HTPC in an always on? Does it go into a standby or lower power state when inactive? If so, how much power does it consume in that state?

Also, how noticeable are the fans? (I think the Tivo HD is fanless).

Thanks

[bschuler2007]

I had a HTPC long before getting a series 2 Tivo. Unfortunitly, HD content adds a whole new wrinkle and alot of complexity to the mix.

My view is... a HTPC is a must if you do more than just watch TV. Playing music, watching videos, etc.. is next to impossible or annoying on the Tivo and Tivo is not gonna fix that any time soon (if ever). I know, cuz I've begged.

Personally, I am about to get a HDTV.. so I am turning my computer again into the best HTPC I can (HDMI out w/5.1 sound) to serve HD downloaded content, music videos, movies, web surfing, etc and will probably also get a HD Tivo or something similar in the distant future. The cool thing with HDMI and RF remotes is the PC doesn't even have to be in the living room.

For me, I can easily live without a HD Tivo.. but I cannot live without my HTPC. The biggest plus for the HTPC in my mind is that you control the PC.. whereas TIVO auto updates and breaks things all the time (I think they try to).

[ACraigL]

ACraigL, do you have any idea of the power consumption of your machine when it is active? And do you leave your HTPC in an always on? Does it go into a standby or lower power state when inactive? If so, how much power does it consume in that state?

Also, how noticeable are the fans? (I think the Tivo HD is fanless).

Thanks

cascadejwj, I have not really checked the power consumption, but I got the higher PSU wattage in the event I wanted to add a PCIe video card to replace the onboard video (Radeon x1250). I do leave it on all the time, but it will go into standby on its own. The good (great?) news is that VMC will resume automatically from standby to begin a recording. The chipset/OS/whatever are very quick to resume so nothing gets missed.

On the rig I purchased, I can't hear the fans at all. As I said earlier, my TiVo S2 is louder than this HTPC. I can't hear it unless I'm right up in it.

I'll upload a picture of my setup if I get a moment.

[flatcurve]

HDHomeRun is dual-tuner. It's a networked tuner device so as long as you have 100GB network, you will be fine. It streams the digital video over ethernet from one or two coax connnections. There are 2 ways to connect it... over your network or directly to PC. The former will allow all networked PCs to see the tuners, the latter, will provide a closed network for a single PC. This was optimal in my case as I have a wireless network and I'm pretty certain it would not have sustained 2 simultaneous streams of HD content.

Read all about it here: http://www.silicondust.com

I think your specs are fine, if you never upgrade the video that is. Post back if you get it working!

I've used the HDHR wireless before and it's worked great. only one stream though. I haven't split the antenna line going into it yet because I don't want to lose signal. I've got the HDHR plugged into my WRT54G router, and was watching it from a laptop in my garage, through two brick walls no less.

[ACraigL]

Saw today that Woot.com has a Sony laptop with the ATI external digital cable tuner (cablecard). Sony sells these separately (for $299) here:
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665246461&storeId=10151

I'm not going to spend that, but is there any reason this won't work for any Vista PC?

[Bushwacr]

My next step is to get a media extender to share all the content (and a fraction of the cost) in the master bedroom. Still waiting for those to come out. In the meantime, my TiVo days may be numbered... we'll see.

Have you thought about something like a Dlink DSM 520? We use the old Series1 Tivos to record DirectTv and OTA HD is recorded on the home computer using BTV and a digital tuner card. I stream this after the sub channels are stripped.

Oddly the wife loves this setup and the quality of the shows streamed. And she gets to stream music, photos and various other stuff.

[ZeoTiVo]

I had a HTPC long before getting a series 2 Tivo. Unfortunitly, HD content adds a whole new wrinkle and alot of complexity to the mix.

My view is... a HTPC is a must if you do more than just watch TV. Playing music, watching videos, etc.. is next to impossible or annoying on the Tivo and Tivo is not gonna fix that any time soon (if ever). I know, cuz I've begged.I play my MP3s off multiple PCs on my TiVo no problem. I play my Rhapsody account on all my TiVos and it does not count as a Rhapsody device even. I get free Music Choice video downloads to my TiVo as well and at some point UNBOX will work out HD downloads for movies. I do a bad thing and rip my Netflix movies to the hardd rive as MPG files and then use TiVo desktop to copy them to the TiVo of my choice in my house and watch them complete with TiVo trick play. All of this is easy and everyone in my family makes use of these features, including my youngest 9 year old girl.


Personally, I am about to get a HDTV.. so I am turning my computer again into the best HTPC I can (HDMI out w/5.1 sound) to serve HD downloaded content, music videos, movies, web surfing, etc and will probably also get a HD Tivo or something similar in the distant future. The cool thing with HDMI and RF remotes is the PC doesn't even have to be in the living room. I have a TiVo HD now and it of course comes with HDMI. Any Tivo can do anything but websurf (the only surfing we do on the TV though is via the Wii to play youtube videos and that is just random when something funny comes along) and I have the Tivo HD to view HD files. I am fine for you to use a PC for this but the TiVo can do all this as well along with any PC and no fuss about drivers or the correct PCI card etc.. just install desktop.

For me, I can easily live without a HD Tivo.. but I cannot live without my HTPC. The biggest plus for the HTPC in my mind is that you control the PC.. whereas TIVO auto updates and breaks things all the time (I think they try to).for me and many others, I can do all that easily with a TiVo HD (including OTA). The biggest plus for me is that the TiVo HD has been rock solid for me, along with S2 DVRs going abck 4 years. The vast majority of TiVo owners do not have any problems and of course TiVo does not try and break anything. :rolleyes: Your anti-tivo bias does not serve this thread well at all.

[ZeoTiVo]

Saw today that Woot.com has a Sony laptop with the ATI external digital cable tuner (cablecard). Sony sells these separately (for $299) here:
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665246461&storeId=10151

I'm not going to spend that, but is there any reason this won't work for any Vista PC?

This is from taht web page
Adds ability to simultaneously watch and record TV signals on models that ship with ATI TV Wonder Digital Cable tuner.

Compatible Models
Units already shipping with ATI TV Wonder Digital Cable Tuner

I think they need the ATI digital cable tuner already in the PC so it passes cable labs certification criteria. EG - cable labs has certified a PC that comes with preinstalled ATI digital cable tuner so adding this external unit just plugs it into an already certified DRM environment.

I would like to be wrong though and hear about cable cards being hooked up in more and different ways that are required to be supported by the cable company

[ACraigL]

This thread is getting a bit old, but for completeness, I felt obligated to respond one more time.

I've had a few significant updates since all this went down...

- I added a haupppauge analog tuner card, for a total of 3 tuners. I may even replace that at some point for a dual tuner card. I quickly felt the need to access all channels (disney, nick, cartoon network) so all recordings could be in one place. I get approximately 20 or so HD & SD QAM channels, plus all the basic analog now.

- I added a media center extender, Linksys DMA2100, connected over the wireless N network via a Linksys WRT600N router. Works great! With the advantage of the GB switch, I can record 2 HD programs and stream another to the extender without any traffic concerns.

- I added another 2 GB ram for $38.00 (total of 4GB now). This made a HUGE performance difference in both the host PC and the extender.

- I can now schedule remote recordings via the MSN remote recording service.

While my lifetime and monthly tivo services are still active, I, nor has anyone in my family, even looked at TiVo since late January. I may keep the lifetime unit in case the Series 4 is something to see, but the monthly is going on eBay for sure.

I don't mean this to a "good-bye tivo" thread or anything like that -- I just thought it valuable to communicate other options. For the time being, the HTPC and extender is our family's choice for TV and media.

[ZeoTiVo]

for completeness - what source are you recording the HD channels from?

[ACraigL]

for completeness - what source are you recording the HD channels from?
Sorry, I thought I mentioned that. I'm using the HDHomeRun for HD QAM recording. I get all the local networks in HD, including broadcasts from MTV2, G4, Animal Planet, Discovery Health, The Weather Channel, ESPN, TBS, AMC, MSNBC, BRAVO, ABC Family, UHD, HISTORY, CN8 (comcast network), and a few others.

[ZeoTiVo]

Sorry, I thought I mentioned that. I'm using the HDHomeRun for HD QAM recording. I get all the local networks in HD, including broadcasts from MTV2, G4, Animal Planet, Discovery Health, The Weather Channel, ESPN, TBS, AMC, MSNBC, BRAVO, ABC Family, UHD, HISTORY, CN8 (comcast network), and a few others.

yah was not sure if you were still using it.
Since I have been reluctent to let TWC back to play cable card roulette...

is that just the unencrypted cable channel stuff or is OTA thrown in your list?

Do you like the DVR software for getting recordings?
What kind of capacity does the homerun have?

Once you have the recordings in media center PC are they files? eg - could I then use Tivo desktop to send them to my TiVo DVRs?

[ACraigL]

QAM only, no OTA.

You may need to visit www.silicondust.com for more information. The HDHR is a networked digital dual-tuner, nothing more. It does not have software (other than config) and does not have storage of any kind. It works with many other DRV solutions, including Vista Media Center. In this case it tricks VMC into thinking it's an OTA reciever, since QAM does not work in VMC.

The DVR software will determine the file format, but yes, they are files. The live stream from the tuner is simply saved to disc through the network interface. Since I'm using VMC, mine are .dvrms files, but they can be converted quite easily to another format.

Presumably a resulting mpeg could be shared, but keep in mind the size of these HD video files -- it could be 8GB+ since it's a digital to digital process -- the entire original feed is just saved to disc without the need to encode. The size may be prohibitive for transfers over slower networks or to a Series 2 TiVo.

[ZeoTiVo]

K - let me try again (the website is not completely clear)

I have a Vista home premium Pc and a XP Media Center PC
neither have any tuner cards in them.

Could I buy a home run, hook my cable up to it and
use just software on the PC to end up with files on the PC that are the shows. Do I need to get extra software to do the scheduling of writing the stream to the hard drive or does what I need come with the homerun itself?


once I have afile in some format then it will be just finding the way to re-format it for use on a TiVo be it Tivo HD or series 2 :)

[flatcurve]

Since you have Media Center, you should just be able to use that. On the CD that comes with the HDHR, there's a link to download new DVR software from SiliconDust, but it looks like they haven't released it yet. Hopefully they plan on doing it soon.

Any of the following programs will work with the HDHR as a DVR:

# Windows Media Center:

* MCE 2005 32-bit
* MCE 2005 64-bit
* Vista MCE 32-bit
* Vista MCE 64-bit

# Elgato EyeTV - DVR for Mac
# MythTV - DVR for Linux
# SnapStream BeyondTV - DVR for Windows
# SageTV - DVR for Windows
# MediaPortal - DVR for Windows
# GB-PVR - DVR for Windows

My experience with it so far is just with EyeTV for the mac (which works awesome, btw) so I can't tell you how well it works with Windows MCE.

[ACraigL]

Flatcurve beat me to it.

The solution that they're offering is called TotalMedia. I don't know much about it, but I've used the free and excellent GBPVR to great success and it works with the HDHR as well.

And, as Flatcurve mentioned, your MCE will work fine as well. Note that you need the rollup 2 update under XP to make it work.

[ZeoTiVo]

Flatcurve beat me to it.

The solution that they're offering is called TotalMedia. I don't know much about it, but I've used the free and excellent GBPVR to great success and it works with the HDHR as well.

And, as Flatcurve mentioned, your MCE will work fine as well. Note that you need the rollup 2 update under XP to make it work.

thanks guys. Not really wanting to use media center with it as I would rather this be a background process that takes as little resources as possibe.

MIght check out that GB PVR while waiting to see what total media is like.

[davidb4775]

I am sad to say that noone has asked THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION. Can the wife run it? The possibility of such a project in my house is directly proportionate to my wife's ability to set a recording as easily as a TiVo. And I JUST THOUGHT I was the king of my castle

[ACraigL]

I am sad to say that noone has asked THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION. Can the wife run it? The possibility of such a project in my house is directly proportionate to my wife's ability to set a recording as easily as a TiVo. And I JUST THOUGHT I was the king of my castle

Wife can run it -- setting a recording via the guide, search or keyword is just as easy in my opinion.

Happy to say that both kids (8 and 10) and the wife have embraced the Vista Media Center experience. There was few weeks of "this sucks, I hate it" from the wife, but that was typical to how she addresses change. Once she got the knack of it (not hard, btw) we have never looked back. Not once did she ever comment on wanting TiVo back.

I thing what really sold her was the slideshow/music combinations. To be able to look at our photos in HD in conjunction with automatically animated (pan/scan) slideshows and our favorite music, she was sold. Also the ability to watch missed shows from the internet, on the couch, full-screen was a big sell.

[reh523]

No MCE is complete without web scheduling and commercial delete add ons.

Auto delete the commercials in you DVR-MS files http://babgvant.com/files/folders/dvrmstoolbox/default.aspx

Web scheduling (or from any local PC) http://www.asciiexpress.com/webguide/

[ACraigL]

No MCE is complete without web scheduling and commercial delete add ons.

Auto delete the commercials in you DVR-MS files http://babgvant.com/files/folders/dvrmstoolbox/default.aspx

Web scheduling (or from any local PC) http://www.asciiexpress.com/webguide/

Agreed. I have both, though with slight variations. I use dvrmstoolbox, but only to skip commercials, not remove them. Usually I delete after I watch so no need to edit them out. For remote scheduling I use MSN Remote Record. It has far less overhead than webguide. It does less, but only what I need/want.

[ciper]

I see no mention of XBox Media Center. Using it in combination of a Tivo gives you all the features (and more) of the HTPC for less money.

Check it out here http://xbmc.org/
BTW its open source :)

[ACraigL]

I see no mention of XBox Media Center. Using it in combination of a Tivo gives you all the features (and more) of the HTPC for less money.

Check it out here http://xbmc.org/
BTW its open source :)

Interesting. I never saw this before (though no interest in an XBox either). How do you use in in combination with a TiVo? Are you saying that they interact or talk to each other in some way?

[ZeoTiVo]

Interesting. I never saw this before (though no interest in an XBox either). How do you use in in combination with a TiVo? Are you saying that they interact or talk to each other in some way?

I think he means use the TiVo to do the recording and then get the shows to where XBMC can play them.

Frankly I am fine with the TiVo doing most of the recording of shows but the HDhomerun is a way to feed digital to my Series 2 TiVo's without needing a cable box. I see it as a stopgap measure on my way to Series 4 TiVo DVRs when they finally come out (or I move to something else after seeing them).

With the advent of TiVo desktop 2.6 automatically pushing shows to my TiVo DVR from a PC with folder support then anyway I can get shows on the PC becomes a way I can "season pass" them on multiple TiVo DVRs in the house despite the original source and the series of TiVo DVR currently in use.

This keeps the actual playing simple and rock solid in the form of picking a show in now playing that is already on the Tivo Harddrive, while allowing me to geek out on the backend. A perfect blend for myself and the wife ;)