TiVo Spam

[Mot]

Hey, I've loved owning a TiVi for a good many years now, but suddenly it seems the good folks at TiVo have perhaps forgotten that we paid them (lifetime)/are paying them to use the software.

So how come all the new ads? The automobile sneak peaks, the Martha Stewart stuff, etc.

The more in-your-face the advertising, the more likely the adoption of Windows Media Center Edition, or the DVRs offered by the cable and satellite providers.

Come on, TiVo. The service should be free of ads. We're paying for this stuff.

[mattack]

The ads have been there all along (or at least many years). I'm not saying I like them, but there have been some form of ads for a very very long time..

BTW, if you can get media center to work *with cable cards*, without paying a monthly fee.. great...

[pilotbob]

BTW, if you can get media center to work *with cable cards*, without paying a monthly fee.. great...

ReplayTV is releasing this month. Their service is $20 a year. It won't be long before someone starts building ReplayTV based units in a STB like form factor that will/can compete with Tivo.

BOb

[bicker]

The more in-your-face the advertising, the more likely the adoption of Windows Media Center EditionHardly. MCE is not a consumer-focused product offering. It really is best for aficionados.

or the DVRs offered by the cable and satellite providers.If you are interesting, I can provide links to forums with thousands and thousands of messages about pet peeves regarding the cable and satellite DVRs. TiVo is very deliberately a better device, ads and all, as compared to those alternatives.

Come on, TiVo. The service should be free of ads. We're paying for this stuff.As others have pointed out in other threads, this is a specious argument. I pay for my airline flights, yet there are advertisements presented before take-off. I pay for my DVDs, and yet there are advertising inserts in each. I paid for books from amazon.com and the box is often stuffed with catalogs and other advertising materials. I pay to see a movie and am treated to a slide show of dozens of local business advertisements before the film begins. I pay for cable television, yet many of these channels have advertising -- indeed the cable company inserts some advertising into some of the channels.

And so on.

[RoyK]

...
As others have pointed out in other threads, this is a specious argument. I pay for my airline flights, yet there are advertisements presented before take-off. I pay for my DVDs, and yet there are advertising inserts in each. I paid for books from amazon.com and the box is often stuffed with catalogs and other advertising materials. I pay to see a movie and am treated to a slide show of dozens of local business advertisements before the film begins. I pay for cable television, yet many of these channels have advertising -- indeed the cable company inserts some advertising into some of the channels.

And so on.

My kids used to try to use the "everyone else is doing it so why not me?" argument too. It didn't make sense either.........

[bicker]

Quite a different situation. Your kids were trying to get your to overrule a dictate you put in place for their benefit, not yours. In this case, the poster is trying to get TiVo to overrule a dictate they put in place for their own benefit, to get them to do something which is not to their benefit. In other words, in this case, in your analogy, the poster is in the position of your kids.

[RoyK]

Quite a different situation. Your kids were trying to get your to overrule a dictate you put in place for their benefit, not yours. In this case, the poster is trying to get TiVo to overrule a dictate they put in place for their own benefit, to get them to do something which is not to their benefit. In other words, in this case, in your analogy, the poster is in the position of your kids.

Uhhhh___

[Luke M]

Why do some people feel the need to defend Tivo? It's like they are cult members or something.

If Tivo gets the idea that we are all nutty cultists who will accept anything without complaining, who knows what will be next?

[magnus]

I guess what will be next is.... no Tivo. Surely, everyone should understand that in order for Tivo to stay in business that subscriptions and advertisements ARE a necessary evil.

Pick your poison: No Tivo or Tivo with some advertisements

However, I do think that Lifetime units should be subjected to less advertising.

Why do some people feel the need to defend Tivo? It's like they are cult members or something.

If Tivo gets the idea that we are all nutty cultists who will accept anything without complaining, who knows what will be next?

[MScottC]

Because of all my computer based devices, TiVo has, over the 8 years I've owned it, been the most reliable, easiest to use, and perhaps one of the most influencing electronic factors in my leisure life. 99% of the time it just works. It gives me the freedom to watch what I want when I want, rather than scheduling around TV.

Are there issues, yes, but quite frankly, not one of them comes close to outweighing the benefits of having TiVo in my life. And if a few ads that show up on the bottom of the menu screen, or hidden away behind other menus, but also help subsidize a company that provides service to me, I can live with that.

My question is, "Why are there so many naysayers in this world?" I really find that some people see nothing but negatives. You'ld be a lot happier if you saw the positives around you.

[visionary]

Hey, what ever happened to the Tivo going to replace old ads in TV shows with new ones? Did it happen? The scare at the time was you may not be able to skip over those and I remember saying at election time we may have 5 minutes of political ads in EVERY show you can't skip, now THAT would be annoying! What Tivo does now, no problem at all, and I hope they make money and stay around. But are any ads being replaced? Anyone see an ad in a show that had to be newer than when show was recorded yet?

[dianebrat]

I guess what will be next is.... no Tivo. Surely, everyone should understand that in order for Tivo to stay in business that subscriptions and advertisements ARE a necessary evil.

And Tivo's history of not making a profit is a big deal, so if less advertising means they have fewer funds coming in, that would be bad.

Tivo with advertising = not great
No Tivo because they went belly up = a lot worse.

That tempers the discussion for a lot of us as long as the ads stay in the unobtrusive section of my activities. The only ad that has come close to annoying me is the category that pop up while I'm in FF mode..and those are very sparse so far (I think they understand how seriously that intrudes into the viewing)

Diane

[Luke M]

My question is, "Why are there so many naysayers in this world?" I really find that some people see nothing but negatives. You'ld be a lot happier if you saw the positives around you.

Well, all the best people are "negative" in that sense; they are positive about what can be, which necessarily means being critical about what is. Inventors are positive people. Defenders of the status quo are negative people.

[ZeoTiVo]

Why do some people feel the need to defend Tivo? It's like they are cult members or something.

If Tivo gets the idea that we are all nutty cultists who will accept anything without complaining, who knows what will be next?

this thread is so ridiculous as to have moved to the absurd.

ReplayTV for 20$ a year will now compete with TiVo or cable/sat company DVRs....... :p

Media Center will compete on digital cable HD content... yah, for like 2,000$ dollars :p

Move to cable company/sat DVRs becasue they have less ads :p


so this is no cult just saying TiVo can do no bad, just some realists who know that advertising is part of the American Business landscape

[classicsat]

Why do some people feel the need to defend Tivo? It's like they are cult members or something.

It is because people are attacking TiVo for doing something that:

TiVo has done all along.
Is in the Terms Of Service you agreed to when you subscribe to the service.
Is not all that intrusive
Most very other pay service is doing.


If Tivo gets the idea that we are all nutty cultists who will accept anything without complaining, who knows what will be next?
While a large proportion of the users here at TCF may be nutty cultists, we are a minority of their user base they are concerned for. Their user base is the general public for the most part.

[richsadams]

this thread is so ridiculous as to have moved to the absurd.

ReplayTV for 20$ a year will now compete with TiVo or cable/sat company DVRs....... :p

Media Center will compete on digital cable HD content... yah, for like 2,000$ dollars :p

Move to cable company/sat DVRs because they have less ads :p

So this is no cult just saying TiVo can do no bad, just some realists who know that advertising is part of the American business landscapeAgreed. Plus I’d wager a number of folks here have tried those other solutions and found them wanting. I know I have. :down:

While a large proportion of the users here at TCF may be nutty cultists, we are a minority of their user base they are concerned for. Their user base is the general public for the most part.+1 :up:

There are rarely more than a 1,000 people using the TCF during peak hours and some are in forums having nothing to do with TiVo. I’m not sure of the total users, but maybe a few thousand with possibly a few hundred actively posting? IIRC TiVo's subscription base is well over 4,000,000 now. Although we're enthusiasts and tend to think in the majority somehow, we're a drop in the proverbial bucket of TiVo owners.

If there were massive unrest in the world about the insignificant ads TiVo runs a lot more than the dozen or so people complaining about it would find there way here...IMHO.

BTW, I actually enjoyed the Jaguar ad…but now my wife wants one. :rolleyes:

[pilotbob]

ReplayTV for 20$ a year will now compete with TiVo or cable/sat company DVRs....... :p


FYI: You took what I said out of context! Let's be responsible if we are going to call other's posts rediculous.

BOb

[bicker]

Why do some people feel the need to defend Tivo? It's like they are cult members or something.Why do some people feel the need to attack people who simply disagree with them? :rolleyes:

The reality is that I've attacked TiVo when they actually deserved it. I had a long-standing Closed Captioning issue (which was finally resolved) and I wasn't shy about criticizing TiVo explicitly for failing to live up to a moral obligation to ensure their product works for the hearing impaired. I also had a major problem getting CableCards to work, and I believe I was the first person on TCF to explicitly label TiVo's handling of CableCards as lacking "robustness".

Yet I still disagree with your anti-TiVo perspective in this thread. That's because I consider myself fair and balanced, and will criticize TiVo when they are wrong, and defend them when they are right.

If you only criticize TiVo, then perhaps it is you who are affected by some sort of cult! :D:D

[JYoung]

ReplayTV is releasing this month. Their service is $20 a year. It won't be long before someone starts building ReplayTV based units in a STB like form factor that will/can compete with Tivo.

BOb

Uhhh, that was already tried.
Replay started out as a direct competitor to TiVo with their own standalone boxes.

They didnt sell that well despite the product line being sold to new owners.
The current owners (Denon/DNNA) scrapped the standalone boxes and retooled the software to run on pcs.
It current only runs on Windows XP and requires either a Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-150 (model 1045) or Hauppauge WinTV-PVR USB2 (model 941).

They have a USB HD tuner coming out this month but my understanding is that it won't do QAM, just OTA ATSC.

So where did you see that someone will by building Replay based units?

[psyton]

It is because people are attacking TiVo for doing something that:

TiVo has done all along.Uh, no they haven't. You've been around long enough to remember when the first ads hit. I have had Tivo long enough to remember when they added it, and have dipped a toe or two into the advertising affray over the years. Compare today's amount of advertising to the beginning, and even you have to admit the advertising has increased substantially. Therefore, the "slippery slope" argument came to pass - its just too bad that too many decided any amount of advertising that Tivo can do is justified, as long as it helps them stay in business. Meanwhile, others like myself contend the way for Tivo to turn a profit is to perhaps let some of those countless VPs go, cut expenses the old fashioned way, stop the lame marketing gimics and get a professional marketeer in charge of that dept., stop acting like one of those late 1990's dot com IPOs that never turned a profit and either had a business model of a buyout by some larger firm who knew how to succeed or whose model was doomed to failure from the beginning, and stop diluting the stock by dumping more onto the market every time they need to fund their company further because management just can't seem to figure out how to turn profitable. You know, generally operate like a sound business. Is in the Terms Of Service you agreed to when you subscribe to the service.No, not in the original TOS when I bought my box, because ads didn't come until later (see #1) Is not all that intrusiveYour opinion; I disagree. You know what they say about opinions, so try not to enter opinions into the discussion, because yours doesn't hold any more weight than mine. Most very other pay service is doing.I can think of many who are profitable without relying on the advertising model. However, I do hope you'll be just as happy and forgiving when targeted advertising starts hitting your cell phone - its coming, be prepared. Walk by a Mickey D's and get an ad on your phone. Many of the same arguments voiced by the ad supporters can be applied to that business model as well, and once all the providers are doing it, you'll have nowhere to hide.
They [RePlayTV] didnt sell that well despite the product line being sold to new owners.That isn't the way I remember it. I recall what caused Replay's demise was that they insisted on the auto-commercial skip and that all too infamous network sharing model, which didn't go over too well with the media overlords. Up until the point where they were going to be sued out of virtual existence, they proved to be a worthy adversary to Tivo. Now they're a software only model, which doesn't stand a chance against a CE device.

[ZeoTiVo]

ReplayTV is releasing this month. Their service is $20 a year. It won't be long before someone starts building ReplayTV based units in a STB like form factor that will/can compete with Tivo.

BOb
OK, so what did you mean by this, then?

[ZeoTiVo]

Uh, no they haven't. You've been around long enough to remember when the first ads hit. I have had Tivo long enough to remember when they added it, and have dipped a toe or two into the advertising affray over the years. Compare today's amount of advertising to the beginning, and even you have to admit the advertising has increased substantially.
a yellow star on the main menu -now within a banner
banner ad on keep or delete screen
thumbsup - or banner ad over top of an actual TV commercial

how is that substantially more

Therefore, the "slippery slope" argument came to pass - its just too bad that too many decided any amount of advertising that Tivo can do is justified, as long as it helps them stay in business. no one said no amount of advertising is justified. Many have said that advertising that does not get in the way of normal DVR operations is no biggie and helps TiVo make some revenue. That is all, all the rest is just FUD.



Your opinion; I disagree. You know what they say about opinions, so try not to enter opinions into the discussion, because yours doesn't hold any more weight than mine.I can think of many who are profitable without relying on the advertising model. so name this multitude in the same kind of business as TiVo that is profitable without advertising. Lets take the opinion that TiVo does not have to advertise to turn a profit out of the equation.



However, I do hope you'll be just as happy and forgiving when targeted advertising starts hitting your cell phone - its coming, be prepared. Walk by a Mickey D's and get an ad on your phone. Many of the same arguments voiced by the ad supporters can be applied to that business model as well, no, just the way you have distorted this debate to one of any ad is A GOOD AD. If I agreed to some TOS in a business deal with McDonalds that allowed them to send things to my cell phone and my cell phone operated normally and I did nothing different to use my cell phone despite the ads - then that would be an equivalent thing.

If McDonalds just started sending ads to my phone without my consent then that is SPAM and I would not find it acceptable. man you wnat facts and no opinions in the posts and then go into some Minority Report World of ads being beamed at us and we would all find it just fine.

[JYoung]

That isn't the way I remember it. I recall what caused Replay's demise was that they insisted on the auto-commercial skip and that all too infamous network sharing model, which didn't go over too well with the media overlords. Up until the point where they were going to be sued out of virtual existence, they proved to be a worthy adversary to Tivo. Now they're a software only model, which doesn't stand a chance against a CE device.

That's what got them sued.
However, when Sonic Blue filed for Chapter 11 and sold off the ReplayTV assets to D&M, there were only 100,000 subscribers. (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/04/17/BU307182.DTL&type=tech)

Replay was getting pummeled by TiVo sales wise.

[psyton]

how is that substantially moreUsing just your examples, that is a 300% increase in delivery methods. Do you not consider a 300% increase substantial?no, just the way you have distorted this debate to one of any ad is A GOOD AD.OK, tell me one ad model you mentioned that you disapprove of? No distortion - you're defending the model, and thus far all I've heard from you is how harmless these ads are.If I agreed to some TOS in a business deal with McDonalds that allowed them to send things to my cell phone and my cell phone operated normally and I did nothing different to use my cell phone despite the ads - then that would be an equivalent thing.

If McDonalds just started sending ads to my phone without my consent then that is SPAM and I would not find it acceptable. man you wnat facts and no opinions in the posts and then go into some Minority Report World of ads being beamed at us and we would all find it just fine.Man, you just don't understand the model, do you? In lieu of trying to flame me with that Minority Report BS and FUD commentary, try to do a little research and reply at least with the appearance of intelligence. I'll try to break it down for you best I can. It is not McD that will be beaming the ad, it is almost the same model Tivo uses. Try to follow, and see how it relates to the Tivo model:
Service Provider enters into an advertising arrangement with x number of companies Service Provider amends TOS to include targeted advertising sent to your phone Service provider's ad model is that when it detects that your cell phone has entered the proximity of one of its advertising partners, the Service Provider interjects a targeted advertisement to your cell phone All ads are sent by the Service Provider to equipment you own, at a time, delivery and presentation method of their choosing Supporters of Service Provider jump on the forums defending against harsh posts of this advertising model as essential to the survival of the company and explaining the ads are themselves harmless and non intrusiveSo to that I say "Yes, try to stick to the facts and at least do a little research into some of the technology being developed.". Well, as best as you can, we all know your propensity for lack of cohesive thoughts and understanding sometimes when you get excited defending Tivo.

[classicsat]

So where did you see that someone will by building Replay based units?

I think it is inferred somebody will start making HTPCs that use Replay software for the DVR.

It is not implied who will make such a machine.

[ZeoTiVo]

Using just your examples, that is a 300% increase in delivery methods. Do you not consider a 300% increase substantial? no, I do not consider 3 cookies substantially more than 1. Now 300 cookies is substantially more than 100 but that is not the scale we are talking about.
OK, tell me one ad model you mentioned that you disapprove of? No distortion - you're defending the model, and thus far all I've heard from you is how harmless these ads are.Man, I am saying that on my TiVo, the ads are still unobtrusive and I use my DVR with no change and ignore the ads or take a look if interested. The ads on TiVo I do not disaprove of. As for the model it depends on how it is implemented and the cost to me.
I did not mind the old way ads were done on this web site but do not like the new way as it is more obtrusive and takes up real estate that posts used to take. However the site is still free for my use and I have no problem with the trade off at all.

I noticed you did not provide any examples of companies nopt advertising to back up your opinion. Cell phone companies might be one but then they charge a good bit of money per month for the service.

in your phone example it is either Mcdonalds I make a deal with specifically or else with my phone carrier. If my phone carrier just changed the TOS and I received no benefit then I would consider the factors around it. What ads, how many ads, did I have to use my phone differently because of the ads, etc.. Would rates rise if they did not do that, is there a service I would use instead that did not make me compromise on features, etc.. if they gave me free 1000 anytime minutes for ads I would happily accept it.

TiVo walks that fine line of being a subscription service so they can not present ads like this website does or offer free service for more ads so instead they keep the ads unintrusive and TiVo knows full well there is a line they can not cross or they will loose many subscribers.

as for your persoanl attacks - look back and note I talk about your posts not you personally. You choose instead to insult me the person which is against forum rules and says much about your character and your lack of any real content to debate with.

[psyton]

I noticed you did not provide any examples of companies nopt advertising to back up your opinion. Cell phone companies might be one but then they charge a good bit of money per month for the service.
[snip]...and your lack of any real content to debate with.It's not companies who do not advertise that is the question; it is service oriented businesses that do not pollute the service with third party advertising. Tivo is free to advertise itself in magazines, on tv, radio, billboards, etc.; I couldn't care less. I take exception with them polluting the service I pay for with third party advertising. But since you wanted a list, here are just a few (and yes I just googled for an applicable list just to make you happy). telephone utilities ISP restaurants hotels daycare centers nursing homes assisted living centers automotive repair shops banking institutions hair salonsYou want debate, here: A lot of people, like you, seem to have problems understanding the distinction between the service and the content. Tivo provides no original content, they are only a conduit for the content of others. The Tivo service is the delivery platform. Similar in nature: cable boxes (receivers) who pollute the screens w/ ads. Different in nature: cable tv, the content is not theirs and as such, they are not responsible for the ads contained within and do not inject third patry advertising into the stream. People throw up magazines as a similar example - it isn't. One accepts advertising in magazines so that the cost of providing you with original content remains low, i.e., it is the content. If you want to keep comparing magazines, then a similar example would be if the post office inserts advertising into the magazine when delivering it to your door. Same argument for cable TV itself - they don't provide the content and don't inject advertising from third parties into the stream themselves as a revenue generation mechanism. I could go one, but these always digress into people like you making bad analogies and showing they just don't have a grasp of the underlying concepts at work, similar to what you have demonstrated in this thread.as for your persoanl attacks - look back and note I talk about your posts not you personally. You choose instead to insult me the person which is against forum rules and says much about your characterI'm sorry I hurt your feelings; accept my apology?

[CrispyCritter]

It's not companies who do not advertise that is the question; it is service oriented businesses that do not pollute the service with third party advertising. Tivo is free to advertise itself in magazines, on tv, radio, billboards, etc.; I couldn't care less. I take exception with them polluting the service I pay for with third party advertising. But since you wanted a list, here are just a few (and yes I just googled for an applicable list just to make you happy). telephone utilities ISP restaurants hotels daycare centers nursing homes assisted living centers automotive repair shops banking institutions hair salonsYou want debate, here: A lot of people, like you, seem to have problems understanding the distinction between the service and the content. Tivo provides no original content, they are only a conduit for the content of others. The Tivo service is the delivery platform. Similar in nature: cable boxes (receivers) who pollute the screens w/ ads. Different in nature: cable tv, the content is not theirs and as such, they are not responsible for the ads contained within and do not inject third patry advertising into the stream. People throw up magazines as a similar example - it isn't. One accepts advertising in magazines so that the cost of providing you with original content remains low, i.e., it is the content. If you want to keep comparing magazines, then a similar example would be if the post office inserts advertising into the magazine when delivering it to your door. Same argument for cable TV itself - they don't provide the content and don't inject advertising from third parties into the stream themselves as a revenue generation mechanism. I could go one, but these always digress into people like you making bad analogies and showing they just don't have a grasp of the underlying concepts at work, similar to what you have demonstrated in this thread.I'm sorry I hurt your feelings; accept my apology?Boy, you live in a very different world than all the rest of us!

From your list, the folks I personally have gotten 3rd party ads from:
telephone, utilities (mostly non-profit ads in the bills), ISP, restaurants, hotels, banking institutions, hair salons.

Cable companies very strongly do "inject advertising from third parties into the stream themselves as a revenue generation mechanism". Where do you think all the local ads come from?

Besides, the original analogies were correct, and you're way off in your own world here as well. You're paying for a service, and that service includes ads. If there are too many ads for you, then by all means leave TiVo. But TiVo has no choice, at this point it's clear they will not ever make major profits without ads. They simply don't charge enough for their service. Or put another way: enough people aren't willing to pay more for the service, but are willing to put up with the few ads TiVo has.

[bicker]

People throw up magazines as a similar example - it isn't. One accepts advertising in magazines so that the cost of providing you with original content remains low, i.e., it is the content.Despite your preference for it to not be the case, the TiVo works the same way as a magazine. Your want to put boundaries on TiVo that simply aren't the case -- TiVo determines what will and will not be the boundaries of their service.

[hddude55]

Why do some people feel the need to defend Tivo? It's like they are cult members or something.


Yep, it's like criticizing Apple products. I suspect the same Apple cultists have joined the newer TiVo cult. Someday soon you can expect to see them in your local airport begging for money on behalf of Apple and/or TiVo while singing Kumbaya.

[CrispyCritter]

As far as cable TV ad injection, it is federally mandated air time given to local advertisers so they have a medium to compete against the national advertisers - it is not a revenue generation mechanism for CTV - but I wouldn't expect you to understand the distinction.I most certainly do understand the situation. I had a friend who sold local ads for the local Comcast franchise. The cable company makes good money off of those deals, almost all gravy (though the ads are surprisingly cheap). Why do you think the cable companies advertise their advertising capabilities?

I'm not the one who is simultaneously claiming that
1) cable companies don't inject ads into the stream
2) cable companies are federally mandated to inject ads into the stream.

All of my other examples were businesses that gave me ads for 3rd parties in the ordinary course of doing their business with me. I see no reason why TiVo's ads are any more objectionable.

[visionary]

If that guy doesn't think hotels do third party spam, just stay at a Wingate hotel. I did, once, started getting all kinds of US mail, e-mail, and then even PHONE calls (yes I am on no call list) from people with tours, restaurants, and rental places about Williamsburg.

I got so many phone calls I started asking the phone ones why, having never stayed in Williamsburg. I can get there in 40 minutes, why would I ever...... but back to the story. One finally told me it was from Wingate, I had stayed just one night at the Charlotte NC one on a trip months before. Never, ever filled out anything like cards or slips, but they had asked my email when I made reservations, to send the confirm. I did get them to stop, still wonder why not push Charlotte instead of a hotel WHERE I LIVE and would never stay, they knew that, right on all the mailings I got....