New type of in-Tivo ads

[jaredmwright]

I agree 100% with everyone else who is unhappy with the new Folder-Advertisements :down::down::down:. Three thumbs down. They are hard to discern from the yellow circles of the regular shows which makes you think you have another show until you actually notice it is a yellow star, or read the title of the advertisement. This is by far a horrible implementation of an advertising model.

TiVo should take note of the devoted TiVo users that participate on this forum. Some of us have never said anything negative of TiVo, but this will start to change the way that TiVo fans talk about the service. With the recent price increases and recent advertisements among other bugs and issues, TiVo is going in the wrong direction if they are trying to bring in new customers.

Until things improve, I will not promote TiVo to my friends and family based on the following:

1-Price increase for Multi-Service Discount. :down: ($6.95 was good, the new MSD pricing is barely a break at all and still costs more if you prepay for a year up front, which then rolls to the then current monthly price at the end of the year) :down:
2-Increase in advertising which interrupts my viewing habits :down:
3-Lack of consistent HD support for Menus (Swivelsearch, Guide, Unbox, etc...) :down: A unified experience is something our monthly fee should allow.
4-Lack of 3rd party HD content support for importing from PC to TiVo Series 3 or TiVoHD
5-Bugs such as black screen(requiring a reboot), stuttering video on PC->TiVo transfers, alternating Tuner issue when viewing live TV and only recording one show, etc...
6-Repeat TiVoCast problems with video and audio problems, duplicate shows, missing episodes.
7-Slow TiVoHD transfers :down:
8-Missing multi-stream M-Card support for Series 3 TiVo's (Currently M-Cards can only tune to one stream instead of two, requiring two M-Cards.) This will be more of an issue as cable companies increase costs over time and these recurring costs are passed onto customers like us)

I am sure there are more, but those are issues that I notice frequently and should be addressed. Let's hope things change for the better in the future, otherwise other offerings like the future Dish OTA receiver with no monthly fee, Media Centers and other solutions may be stealing away devote TiVo users.

[bicker]

Why does a company with 451 full time employees need 19 vice presidents?Incidentally, I'm not sure if that is the case with TiVo, but many companies try to make up for an inability to raise salaries by engaging in title-inflation as a cost-control measure.

[bicker]

This is by far a horrible implementation of an advertising model. I would be interested in reading your suggestions for a revenue-neutral counter-approach.

TiVo should take note of the devoted TiVo users that participate on this forum.I suspect they do far more than most other companies. How much do the devoted TiVo users that participate on this forum take note of TiVo's financial situation? You're essentially saying to TiVo: "You should post even heavier losses each quarter." That's not a compelling argument. :)

As I have said before, there may not be a viable business model for a subscriber-directed DVR in the United States.

[ZeoTiVo]

1-Price increase for Multi-Service Discount. :down: ($6.95 was good, the new MSD pricing is barely a break at all and still costs more if you prepay for a year up front, which then rolls to the then current monthly price at the end of the year) :down:
TiVo is tyring to get to profitability. they have stated they want a 10$ avg. sub price. You can not have less ads and lower prices
2-Increase in advertising which interrupts my viewing habits :down:there is now advertising where most people spend 90% of their time wehn looking at TiVo menus so yes that is more. the ads however do not interrupt my viewing habits, that is incorrectly stated by you. What they do is add another remote button press which makes the ads annoying in now playing but once I select a show all is good again
3-Lack of consistent HD support for Menus (Swivelsearch, Guide, Unbox, etc...) :down: A unified experience is something our monthly fee should allow.annoying but hardly a showstopper. Also TiVo would still have to support SD menus for those that have hooked up to an SD. What TiVo has done is support just the common denominator to save costs. You can not have lower prices, less ads AND more features.
4-Lack of 3rd party HD content support for importing from PC to TiVo Series 3 or TiVoHDdownloading/streaming is just getting to market. TiVo is a leader in content but has to work with the 3rd parties who are ultimately responsible for making the HD content available. Also the next desktop will allow for HD content from the web and converted via desktop to run as HD on the TiVo.5-Bugs such as black screen(requiring a reboot), stuttering video on PC->TiVo transfers, alternating Tuner issue when viewing live TV and only recording one show, etc...TiVo had just put out a major overhaul of the entire code base to unify it between Series 2 and series 3 and get MRV/TTG working between them. the next version of the OS would logically have the bug fixes for items such as this that result from such a major overhaul. Would you be complaining about no MRV/TTG instead if the major overhaul had not happened?6-Repeat TiVoCast problems with video and audio problems, duplicate shows, missing episodes.See answer to #57-Slow TiVoHD transfers :down:see answer to #5. Also HD content is fairly large and the higher resolution means more data per unit of screen time. Perhaps you should use the fatser HD transfer times on other DVRs?8-Missing multi-stream M-Card support for Series 3 TiVo's (Currently M-Cards can only tune to one stream instead of two, requiring two M-Cards.) This one is a puzzler. Some larger glitch must have gotten by TiVo on this one. It was the first time they designed for cable cards. Two M-cards in the S3 will work to bring dual tuner functionality though.

[wkearney99]

Can't argue against the company needing to be profitable. But there's something to be said for not alienating their customers. Retaining customers is important. Likewise it's important to utilize them for increasing sales to new customers. Nothing is more expensive than driving away customers. You lose the existing revenue stream and have an actively negative force potentially driving off any new revenue streams from developing. Not a recipe for success.

Here's a thought, offer a discount to customers specifically attached to being subjected to advertising like this. See if that generates enough interest. It's entirely possible enough people will go for the idea. I'm hesitant to suggest the flip-side, offer a tier of service that involves paying more to opt-out. But then again, for a dollar more a month (account wide, not per unit) I'm not sure I'd be unwilling to pay it to get them to LEAVE THAT CRAP OFF MY MACHINE.

[wkearney99]

TiVo is tyring to get to profitability. they have stated they want a 10$ avg. sub price. You can not have less ads and lower prices
Sure you can. Higher subscriber numbers without equal overhead. Bring more people into the fold without a likewise increase in operating costs. Economy of scale.

As for streaming and transfer times, I certainly sympathize with Tivo for how much hassle this is going to be. Their support costs for dealing with ISP problems and the like must be a real drain. There are so many outside factors that can negatively affect performance that it's amazing it even works at all.

It's been quite expensive to blaze these trails and I'm sure they'd like to recoup (or at least contain) these costs. I'm just not sure tormenting their existing customer base with this crap is going to work.

[ZeoTiVo]

Sure you can. Higher subscriber numbers without equal overhead. Bring more people into the fold without a likewise increase in operating costs. Economy of scale.

yes, lower costs to end user would equate to more users - simple supply and demand chart for that. However you have the more complex problem of diminshing returns and unrecoverable oppurtunity costs in such an approach. It is always a risky gamble. Plus more subscribers would mean even more desireable revenue oppurtunities from advertising which it would be TiVo inc's fiduciary responsibility to take.

[bicker]

Can't argue against the company needing to be profitable. But there's something to be said for not alienating their customers.Everyone's line for "alienation" is different. In the mass-market, it isn't safe to assume that your line is typical or average.

Retaining customers is important.TiVo retains the vast majority of its customers. So all that you're really pointing out is that marginal amount of lost retention, and the value (to TiVo) of that marginal amount gets stacked up against the value (to TiVo) of the advertising -- the larger amount "wins".

Not a recipe for success.There may not be any recipe for success. TiVo may just have to choose between different levels of lack-of-success.

Here's a thoughtIn order for your ideas to be worth considering, they need to be revenue neutral. TiVo is losing money, so no changes can be made if they result in lower revenues.

[jaredmwright]

As a big TiVo supporter I agree that TiVo needs to make it to profitablity sooner than later if possible.

I would be willing to participate in trials to make this happen that include advertising or other QA work. TiVo would do well to include release notes and software feature lists that many other companies other than TiVo provide to keep paying customers informed. I realize not everyone cares, but many do, especially when troubleshooting issues which has become much more frequent over the last year with the releases and re-releases of dodgy code.

They may need to look at getting creative and possibly doing more partnerships (Nero is a great start). I could imagine what a partnership with Google or someone in the valley could bring for a company like TiVo.

I don't disagree with ads, but the implementation with them. Google provides completely free ad supported products that I enjoy very much as well as many other companies, TiVo could look into following a simliar type of model.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts, it is great to get different opinions on such a heavily debated subject, this is what I love about online forums, multiple opinions and no right or wrong answer. ZeoTivo and bicker, I appreciated your viewpoints and hope TiVo thrives and makes the right decisions.

[Slider10]

God, this thread is 9 pages and I just skipped to the end to see what everyone is saying. I will jump in as well.

I think ads on TiVo in general are good. We all want the company to make money and stay in business. I don't think any of us want them to go the way of ReplayTV. I have NEVER had a problem with the way TiVo did their ads and think they worked hard on striking a balance on placing them but not intruding. The 'Thumbs Up to Learn More' are fun and my 30-second skip fixes that (I still can't believe how many of you don't use this!). I also never minded the ads on the main menu. If TiVo wants to make them a little bigger, go for it!

I have a HUGE problem with the ads in the Now Playing list. When I am in a folder, I want my shows and nothing else. When the TV season is in full swing my TiVo is filled to the gills with shows and can be quite cluttered. To have more items shown to me that are just ads, is annoying.

The Now Playing list is for shows ONLY and the ads need to go. I think TiVo is testing the waters with this new placement and we should make sure we get our points across to them that ads are okay but there is a limit.

That's my $0.2.

[bicker]

I think there might be some confusion about the nature of advertising. In general, people don't seek out this type of advertising. It is incidental to what people are generally doing. You read a magazine article, and one corner of the page is an advertisement. You watch a television program, and commercials interrupt the show every 10 minutes. You're walking down a corridor in an office building, and instead of art prints, there are ads posted every dozen feet. So in terms of placing of links to ads in TiVo, they are necessarily going to be placed where you, the user, are doing something else, so your viewing of them is incidental whatever you're doing normally.

[mchips]

The Now Playing list is for shows ONLY and the ads need to go. I think TiVo is testing the waters with this new placement and we should make sure we get our points across to them that ads are okay but there is a limit.

That's my $0.2.

I agree, we should let our opinions known, for and against. That's the great thing about a democratic society.

So, I'll give my $0.02 as well. I have no problem whatsoever with the ads in the NPL. As with anything and everything, some will have a problem with it, others won't... I don't. They don't bother me in the least... not in the slightest. If I were forced to click on them, then I'd have a problem with them. But as long as clicking on them is still my choice, I couldn't care less.

We all have our limits, and mine has not yet been met.

I once objected to the pop-ads when FF'ng through commercials, that is, until I actually saw them in practice. When I first heard about it, I thought they were going to be random pop-ups covering actual commercials, when I actually like to watch the commercials when they grab my attention and didn't want them covered by other ads. There are some here that will remember my vocal objections to them. As it turned out, the pop-ups are from the same advertiser, covering their own commercials, so as far as I see it, they have every right to cover their own commercial with another ad if they so choose. It's their commercial that they're covering up, and what a creative way to counter-act DVR FFng. Kudos to TiVo for giving them that option.

Anywho, that's my $0.02... I yet have no problems with how the ads are done on TiVo... so they get a :up: from me. :)

[Adam1115]

TiVo has crossed my personal line because the line item ads in now playing lists force me to hit up arrow to move off them. My family however does not see it as any big deal and just kinda went, oh... upon seeing them and since it was some credit card ad just move it off and went on to watch the shows.

Yup. I went from knowing how to use my TiVo to quickly start the oldest show in the list (Select, page down, play) to getting rerouted to a commercial because down arrow takes me to these new ads.


:down::down::down:

[fallingwater]

Actually, this is the most effective way to communicate that we hate the ads in the product. Most people will not dump a defective product in the landfill if using it is at least marginally better than not having it at all. But a) when a better product comes along with an easy transition, and b) if others ask if they should use it, it's really not difficult for companies to lose business. Also some people have come on here to state that they wouldn't recommend the product because of the ads, or that they have canceled. Seeing people post on here is your definition of effective, but like someone has mentioned, if you've canceled service, your relationship with TiVo would have ended and you most likely wouldn't be here posting about it.

Coffee House threads make clear that bitching about ads is currently TiVo's biggest criticism. But when counted the actual number of disgruntled Forum posters is tiny.

Challenges from competition will change TiVo's policies more than thousands of Forum posts. For now though it's often amusing to read these largely ego driven threads.

I often wonder whether TiVo users or possibly Forum posters are much more nitpicky than average. Maybe it's just people involved with digital technology?

[pdragonfly]

The ads are pissing me off. First in the movies and people quietly accepted in and now on my Tivo. Nothing is sacred.

Really pissed at the ads showing up in grouping too. Tried to shut them off and they just return.

[ontheway]

I am new to Tivo and so far the ads don't bother me, but then again I haven't been used to using my Tivo a certain way either. I am curious how many who are bothered by the ads, have actually called Tivo to complain?

I know some Tivo people monitor these forums but I think hitting them here and on the phones would be more likely to eventually affect a change it if ever is to be made. Maybe anytime you call Tivo for support also complain about the ads.

[TadRichard]

I believe the real problem for Tivo in relying more on advertising revenue is that it is a long-term losing proposition.

1) TiVo is opening the door for newer startups to capture market share by offering DVRs that do not (initially) seed as many ads, and/or in a less intrusive manner. Note that start-ups don't need to be profitable, they just need enough of a "hook" (differentiation from current products & services) to get venure capital. I recall that a big reason that I bought TiVo was to be able to avoid television ads by fast-forwarding throught them.

2) The "value" of the in-GUI ads (for advertisers) is proportional to the click-throughs, not the appearances. There are many people on this forum that are not offended by the ad listings as they say can ignore them. But I'm willing to bet that there are not many people on either side of the "offensiveness" debate that actually are clicking into the ads. As advertisers get a true measure of the actual reponse rates for those ads, the value (and price TiVo can demand) will drop significantly.

3) As the price of the ads drops, the only way for TiVo to maintain the same level of advertising revenue will be to increase the number of click-throughs; by increasing the number of ads and the intrusiveness of the ads.

4) See #1, and repeat.

[ZeoTiVo]

I believe the real problem for Tivo in relying more on advertising revenue is that it is a long-term losing proposition.

1) TiVo is opening the door for newer startups to capture market share by offering DVRs that do not (initially) seed as many ads, and/or in a less intrusive manner. Note that start-ups don't need to be profitable, they just need enough of a "hook" (differentiation from current products & services) to get venure capital. I recall that a big reason that I bought TiVo was to be able to avoid television ads by fast-forwarding throught them. Venture Capatilists will need a lot more than a no-ads difference to see it as a smart investment to fund a Standalone DVR startup. Now maybe Echostar could come up with something - but they would go ad based before long anyway. Very few services compete on the idea of we have no ads, it is the vlaue of the service that sells it. Ads typically work to keep the price of the service/item down and thus increase value vs. price.

2) The "value" of the in-GUI ads (for advertisers) is proportional to the click-throughs, not the appearances. There are many people on this forum that are not offended by the ad listings as they say can ignore them. But I'm willing to bet that there are not many people on either side of the "offensiveness" debate that actually are clicking into the ads. As advertisers get a true measure of the actual reponse rates for those ads, the value (and price TiVo can demand) will drop significantly. sure and if the advertisers thought they received no return on the ad cost then they woulod stop that particular ad campaign. It seems quite the opposite is happening on TiVo DVRS. Add in teh fact that advertisers can very accurately measure the click on and interaction with the ad on a TiVo DVR and yoiu have an advertisers dream. I bet TiVo can indeed charge more per eyeball than say a TV spot or newspaper print ad.
3) As the price of the ads drops, the only way for TiVo to maintain the same level of advertising revenue will be to increase the number of click-throughs; by increasing the number of ads and the intrusiveness of the ads.

4) See #1, and repeat.

the price of ads is not dropping on TiVo most likely - but in order for all the aprties to make more money then sure they will look for more intrusive ways. Inj fact that has already happened. Now TiVo itself has a balancing act of when will more intrusive cost TiVo more money in the form of lost customers than it is worth. We saw the first example of that in the Cnet billboard over top the actula TiVocast content for Cnet. People responded by telling Cnet they would cancel the TiVocast on their TiVo and cnet repsonded by stopping the billboard display. TiVo was involved in the mechanics of that and of course will keep that example firmly in mind.

[bicker]

TiVo is opening the door for newer startupsWhich ones? Have they committed to advertising-free user experiences? :confused:

[TiVo'Brien]

I rarely come to the Coffee House, but when I do it's for a good reason. These freakin' ads are driving me batty. They're UGLY and they spoil the simplicity of the Now Playing screen. No TiVo, I DON'T want to download the latest pilot of some new show from Amazon Unbox. No TiVo, I DON'T want the new Norton anti-virus. Didn't you get the hint when after five or six days of it being on there I haven't once looked at it????? And while we're at it, I'm getting kinda sick of you promoting blogs and websites in my TiVo's menu system. I already know about that stuff. If I wanted it, I'd already be doing it. I get the CNet one. That's all I want. I'm not a dolt. I know about the rest of that stuff, but I don't want it. Okay? Get it?

The worst part of all of this is I'm completely powerless to get this crap out of my $800 TiVo with extra cost lifetime service. TiVo has decided to shove this crap down my throat regardless of whether I want it or not. Just like fax spam, you should be paying me to spam me using my TiVo and my electricity and my time.

:down: :down: :down:

[JaneiR36]

TiVo is tyring to get to profitability. they have stated they want a 10$ avg. sub price. You can not have less ads and lower prices

I guess this where I'm usually quite confused. Lower costs for everyone is frequently cited as a reason for TiVo to advertise, but if anything, we're seeing subscription costs go up? So then I'm left wondering which it is: Is TiVo this innocent company that finally breaks down and starts doing ads so they can finally become profitable, or are they using more ads because like everyone else, they can?

*sigh* All I wanted was a better DVD recorder that didn't involve the discs that tended to wear out after a while, not to mention I generally couldn't tell what was in them without playing them, NOT to enter into a relationship with some company.

The way I see it, this is lose / lose for me as a customer. I've been clicking on some ads that interest me, and even if I did like and buy the product, all of a sudden I'm now being subject to what I run away from when I skip commercials and once again being separated from my money (only in this case it's probably a little easier). Magazine / music subscriptions, etc. Again, not a reason to cancel my TiVo, but a small reason that might prevent me from wholeheartedly recommending it to someone else.

[bicker]

I guess this where I'm usually quite confused. Lower costs for everyone is frequently cited as a reason for TiVo to advertiseI think that's a red herring. Advertising provided on TiVo is a reflection of the extent to which there is money to be made providing it. A company doesn't think to itself, "Ah, my owners' retirement accounts are good enough as they are; I'll just ignore the next few lucrative revenue opportunities that present themselves." Profitable or losing money, a responsible business decision is a responsible business decision.

*sigh* All I wanted was a better DVD recorder that didn't involve the discs that tended to wear out after a while, not to mention I generally couldn't tell what was in them without playing them, NOT to enter into a relationship with some company.Ask yourself why no one is willing to give you that.

[mchips]

...but if anything, we're seeing subscription costs go up?

We're not even seeing that.

5 years ago when I got my first TiVo, the subscription price was $12.95/mo... today, it's $12.95/mo...

The MSD recently increased from $6.95 to $9.95, but that took almost 5 years to happen, and 5 years ago when I got my first TiVo, the MSD didn't even exist, hence one could look at it as compared to 5 years ago, the fee was $12.95, and now one can get it for $9.95 with additional boxes.

<edit> and yet existing boxes at the $6.95 rate did NOT go up, they remain at $6.95; the $9.95 rate only affects new subscriptions </edit>

If people want to prepay for 3 years, they can get it for an average of $8.31 per month. So, if anything, we're actually seeing the subscription costs go down.

Also, a single tuner standard-def box cost me over $350 each 5 years ago... now, you can get a dual-tuner standard-def box for less than a 1/3 of that at $99.

<edit> That's two tuners that cost me $700 5 years ago to get, as it required two boxes then, that one can now get for $99, 1/7 of the cost </edit>

And, with a dual-tuner, we can now record two programs at the same time for that same $12.95 for month, whereas previously it took two boxes for a combined total of $25.90 per month until the MSD, then $19.90 after the MSD to get, that we can now get the equivalent of for only $12.95 per month.

So, no, technically costs are not going up, but rather down, even though inflation has continued to go up, <edit> and all while TiVo is losing some monthly subscriptions as some people are replacing each pair of single-tuner boxes (with two monthly subscriptions each) for one dual-tuner box (with only one monthly subscription each). </edit>

[ZeoTiVo]

I guess this where I'm usually quite confused. Lower costs for everyone is frequently cited as a reason for TiVo to advertise, but if anything, we're seeing subscription costs go up?
when I joined it was 299$ for lifetime or 12.95 a month for a sub. HMO cost 99$ per box and they were most likely going to charge for TiVoToGo as well.
the Series 2 40 hour single tuner cost 200$ after rebate.

a MSD is 9.95 month, though I only pay 6.96, - much better prepays now- that inlcude MSD and an 80 hour Dual Tuner can be had for 99$ with no shopping around or free if you shop. An HD capabale TiVo started out at 800$ but now the newest model can be had for 250$ or less. No charge at all for many new features anymore including HMO - which morphed into the much better HME app.

The value to me of my TiVo DVRs has gone up considerably :up::)


PS - everyone ackowledges that a 299$ lifetime or 6.95 sub were no brainers as a great deal for the buyer. They were basically ways to drum up extra business that TiVo thus later curtailed as they could not loose money on those for ever while not being profitable.

[mchips]

...HMO cost 99$ per box...

Oh yeah, I forgot about that... I paid for that, which is now included in the $12.95 or lower monthly fee.

[clam729]

The ads in my show groups are annoying. I have a different star ad in 4 of our groups - Smallville, Supernatural, Desperate Housewives and Brothers and Sisters.

If I turn grouping off, they disappear - once grouping is turned back on, they reappear.

The most annoying part of this is that the ad is not always at the bottom of the show listing. It's at the bottom most of the time, but I go into the group, back out, then back into it, the ad is displayed in a random order.