Series 3 and 1080P

[cab2]

Apologies up front if this topic is covered elsewhere, I did look, but didn't see this specific issue?

I'm trying to use my crystal ball and look a bit into the future. My big screen tv is a few years old, and works fine, but does not do 1080P via hdmi. Don't get me wrong, 1080I still looks great, but, what about the future?

I know the current series 3 units do only 1080i. I currently have the Series 3 THX and am thinking about an HD version for the bedroom. The questions boil down to this:

With the prices droping all the time;

What is the level of cable broadcasts now that come through in 1080P? (if it helps, i'm a TW customer in Austin TX)
Would the current models of S3 ever be able to support 1080P?
Does either sat company broadcast things in 1080P?
Anyone have any thoughts on where the industry is going with respect to 1080P?

I'm a die hard TIVO fan. Have been since the very first 14 hour series 1. But, I'm also looking at the future. When I originally bought my TV, nothing anywhere was being broadcast in 1080P. I have to admit, I have no clue if that situation has changed or not. I guess I'm just looking from info from you out there that know more than I do. Always good to learn new things. :)

Thanks in advance
cab

[SCSIRAID]

Apologies up front if this topic is covered elsewhere, I did look, but didn't see this specific issue?

I'm trying to use my crystal ball and look a bit into the future. My big screen tv is a few years old, and works fine, but does not do 1080P via hdmi. Don't get me wrong, 1080I still looks great, but, what about the future?

I know the current series 3 units do only 1080i. I currently have the Series 3 THX and am thinking about an HD version for the bedroom. The questions boil down to this:

With the prices droping all the time;

What is the level of cable broadcasts now that come through in 1080P? (if it helps, i'm a TW customer in Austin TX)
Would the current models of S3 ever be able to support 1080P?
Does either sat company broadcast things in 1080P?
Anyone have any thoughts on where the industry is going with respect to 1080P?

I'm a die hard TIVO fan. Have been since the very first 14 hour series 1. But, I'm also looking at the future. When I originally bought my TV, nothing anywhere was being broadcast in 1080P. I have to admit, I have no clue if that situation has changed or not. I guess I'm just looking from info from you out there that know more than I do. Always good to learn new things. :)

Thanks in advance
cab

It is unlikely that there will be broadcast content in 1080p in the forseeable future.

[rbeauch]

The only sources that output true 1080p are Blu-ray, HD DVD, and some PS3 Games. There are no sources of broadcast, cable, or satellite that are capable of outputing true 1080p as there is no standard for it as yet.

[TexasGrillChef]

You do NEED a TV with 1080P capability. For Game Machines, Blu-Ray/HD-DVD players & other items for the Future.

As far as Broadcast Television (Even from Cable &/or Satalite) it won't be until around 2012 or 2013 before broadcast TV (Even Cable Channels) start filming & start broadcasting material in 1080p format.

TGC

[cab2]

Thanks for the info folks. This is as I thought it was, but wasn't sure if I was behind the times.

I do have the hd-dvd add on for the xbox, but as I say, the big screen does not do the 1080P.

Now i just have to convince my self that the 399 ps3 I saw today was a bad deal. 40 gig drive, so it's the one that is phased out, but I'm thinking of it as the cheap blu-ray player more than anything else. The fact that Spiderman3 BD comes with it is tempting. I just bought the standard def dvd. At least I haven't opened it yet. groan..... someone talk me out of this!

[David Platt]

Thanks for the info folks. This is as I thought it was, but wasn't sure if I was behind the times.

I do have the hd-dvd add on for the xbox, but as I say, the big screen does not do the 1080P.

Now i just have to convince my self that the 399 ps3 I saw today was a bad deal. 40 gig drive, so it's the one that is phased out, but I'm thinking of it as the cheap blu-ray player more than anything else. The fact that Spiderman3 BD comes with it is tempting. I just bought the standard def dvd. At least I haven't opened it yet. groan..... someone talk me out of this!

Actually, the 40GB is the brand new model-- it's the 20 GB that was phased out. And to make the offer even more tempting: if you open up a Sony Visa card and buy from the Sony website, you get a $100 credit on any purchase over $299, making the 40GB PS3 only $299. No interest for 12 months.

[cab2]

Actually, the 40GB is the brand new model-- it's the 20 GB that was phased out. And to make the offer even more tempting: if you open up a Sony Visa card and buy from the Sony website, you get a $100 credit on any purchase over $299, making the 40GB PS3 only $299. No interest for 12 months.

Oh sure! make me wanna spend money! I hate you! but I mean that in the nicest way. :)

yea, I just read that myself that the 40 was the new one. Shows what I know. I'm not that much of a gamer, and more of a movie buff. But i figure the price is right for a BD player. Hell, if I did the standalone BD player route, I'd spend just about as much. Might as well get a game system for the same $$$$.

[aaronwt]

Actually, the 40GB is the brand new model-- it's the 20 GB that was phased out. And to make the offer even more tempting: if you open up a Sony Visa card and buy from the Sony website, you get a $100 credit on any purchase over $299, making the 40GB PS3 only $299. No interest for 12 months.
The 60GB is also phased out but you can still find many of them at the stores. I know the electronics stores around here still have them. And the 60GB version is the only one that is basically(99%)fully backward compatible with PS2 games. The 80GB version is around 90% backward compatible while the 40GB version is NOT backward compatible at all with PS2 games.

[gcw07]

You should read over this article. Interesting read on 1080i vs 1080p. Basically it talks about how there is no difference in 1080i and 1080p in movies or TV.

blog.hometheatermag com/geoffreymorrison/0807061080iv1080p/

Be sure to add . before the com. Sorry, under 5 posts so can't make urls yet.

[Laserfan]

The bitrates though from HD-DVD are 2x those of at least ATSC broadcast TV. That does-and-will-always look wildly better than what you can get off cable or OTA.

[aaronwt]

Many of the HD DVD bitrates are actually equal or lower than broadcast but they are using VC1 or MPEG4 instead of the MPEG 2 that the US broadcasts use.

[Laserfan]

Many of the HD DVD bitrates are actually equal or lower than broadcast but they are using VC1 or MPEG4 instead of the MPEG 2 that the US broadcasts use.Why do I see typically 25-30 even 50-60Mbps peaks on my HD-DVDs. A bit's a bit whether VC-1 or MPEG-2.

[bkdtv]

Why do I see typically 25-30 even 50-60Mbps peaks on my HD-DVDs. A bit's a bit whether VC-1 or MPEG-2.That's not likely.

The HD-DVD specification is limited to ~29Mbps for video, and a bit over 30Mbps for audio and video combined.

Of course, it's possible that whatever program you are using is misreporting bitrates.

[moolman]

Well, HD-DVD players have dropped in price to $100, the Toshiba A2 was selling for $100 at bestbuy until they ran out and at wal-mart. even the newer A3 is going for $200. There are many that think that on Black Friday, the A3 will drop down to $150.

$100 for a HD-DVD player!

Sony better bring out a $100 BR player very, very soon or at the very least a $200 BR player or it's BetaMax part 2.

I bought a PS3 two months ago, just to watch BR movies, figured it was worth it since I could play games. I don't even own a single game on the PS3, there is nothing worth spending $60 on yet. If I had known HD-DVD players were going to go for $100 this year I would of waited.

The smart move right now is to buy the $100 HD-DVD player and wait on a PS3 unless you like the current games on it.

On a side note, I wouldn't worry about Blue-Ray dying out. Sony makes the lame UMD movies for the PSP portable even though nobody else uses it, they also make the Memory Stick even though everyone else uses SD or CF, they also make the minidisc for a long time. You'll be the only one able to watch Spider Man 5 in HD since they will only release it in BR. :p

[jlib]

...As far as Broadcast Television (Even from Cable &/or Satellite) it won't be until around 2012 or 2013 before broadcast TV (Even Cable Channels) start filming & start broadcasting material in 1080p format.There is not likely to be much consumer demand for such broadcasting even if bandwidth and compression technology were to eventually allow it. By 2012 there will be so many TV receivers capable of only current ATSC standards that it will remain the standard for many many years (look how long it has taken to let go of analog, there is just too much of a critical mass of old equipment holding things back). I agree that since all 1080 displays are natively 1080P they should also be able to take an input of 1080P from other devices (and pretty much all current 1080 models now do) but being able to receive and decode broadcasts of 1080p is probably something only your children will see in their lifetime. Few would be able to discern the difference anyway.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080p#Broadcasting_standards) :
In the United States, the ATSC is considering amending its standard to allow the incorporation of the newer codecs for optional usage... However, doing so is not expected to result in widespread consumer availability of broadcast 1080p programming, since most of the existing digital television sets or external digital receivers in use in the United States would still only be capable of decoding the older, less-efficient MPEG-2 codec, while the bandwidth limitations do not allow for broadcasting two simultaneous streams on the same broadcast channel (e.g. both a 1080i MPEG-2 stream alongside a 1080p MPEG-4 stream).

[Laserfan]

The HD-DVD specification is limited to ~29Mbps for video, and a bit over 30Mbps for audio and video combined.That's right, my PowerDVD Ultra has been lying to me!!!?!!! Still, aaronwt's comment about HD-DVD bitrates being lower than broadcast is way wrong, HD-DVD is almost twice broadcast, which is another reason HD-DVDs look so much better than broadcast HD.

[cab2]

keep this stuff coming folks! I love it and am learning a lot. Many thanks.

I did pick up the 399 PS3 yesterday. The only thing I've done with it was to watch the first half of spiderman and do the setup and play around with the interface on the PS3. I gotta admit, the picture on SM was awesome but I have not seen all of the movie yet. Should I have spent the money or waited? Well, that will be determined later I guess.

As to the gaming part of the PS3. For me, it's not that I don't like gaming, I love it, but either I am too old, uncoordinated, or it's the dyslexia kicking in, but I just can't seem to get good enough that i could even come close to today's 10 year old. I spent some time working in the pc game industry and love to play games, I just can't get good at them. I do really enjoy seeing what people can do with the current state of the art platforms. I think it's fascinating where the graphics are going and how things work. It's the same for me on the xbox. Love it, just can't seem to get good at it. Now that I have the PS3, I'm gonna have to do all the web searching and whatever all over again. Don't even know what the current state of the art would be on the PS3. But no matter what it is now, I expect it will get better over time. I know the game developers are learning how to use the new platforms and with that will come better games.

The conversations on bitrate and broadcast and all is great too. And I thought I was a geek, but you folks sure know more than I do in this category.

Thanks for all the feedback. It's great to learn from all of you.

[cab2]

I just found out about the free BD movies deal with the purchase of a BD player. The ps3 qualifies. Will definately have to send in for this one. 5 movies for free? I figure that's gotta be worth close to 100 anyway. Course, I have some of these, and not interested in others, but hey, who am I to turn down 5 movies for free.

http://www.bluraysavings.com/

[HDTiVo]

Don't talk about p as p. Talk about p24, p60. Define your p. I believe there is an ATSC format for (1080)p24, perhaps p30?

[TexasGrillChef]

Thanks for the info folks. This is as I thought it was, but wasn't sure if I was behind the times.

I do have the hd-dvd add on for the xbox, but as I say, the big screen does not do the 1080P.

Now i just have to convince my self that the 399 ps3 I saw today was a bad deal. 40 gig drive, so it's the one that is phased out, but I'm thinking of it as the cheap blu-ray player more than anything else. The fact that Spiderman3 BD comes with it is tempting. I just bought the standard def dvd. At least I haven't opened it yet. groan..... someone talk me out of this!


I just upgraded both of my Blu-Ray players. Just sold my older Samsung Blu-Ray on Ebay for $250 and my Pioneer blu-ray for $500.

The Samsung BD-P1400 is a good deal for the price ($449 at best buy). It will do DTS-HD and Dolby Digital-HD. (True HD sound)

The Sony 300 which is $499 as well. DOESN"T do DTS-HD or DD-HD (True HD).. you have to get the Sony 500 which is $799 to get DTS-HD or DD-HD (True HD).

Sharp has a good unit too. Panasonics is good but over priced.

TGC

[TexasGrillChef]

There is not likely to be much consumer demand for such broadcasting even if bandwidth and compression technology were to eventually allow it. By 2012 there will be so many TV receivers capable of only current ATSC standards that it will remain the standard for many many years (look how long it has taken to let go of analog, there is just too much of a critical mass of old equipment holding things back). I agree that since all 1080 displays are natively 1080P they should also be able to take an input of 1080P from other devices (and pretty much all current 1080 models now do) but being able to receive and decode broadcasts of 1080p is probably something only your children will see in their lifetime. Few would be able to discern the difference anyway.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080p#Broadcasting_standards) :

Well being the fact that I do work for TI (Texas Instruments) and several of the TI Board members. I get alot of inside information. The DLP chip has been & will always be 1080p capable. When I talked to several of them. ALL of the PROFFESIONAL level Digital HD Cameras on the market today are capable of filming in 1080p. So starting VERY soon, MOST shows will be filmed in 1080p. (In case they want to release said show on HD-DVD, or Blu-Ray). They also said. that within in the next 10 years. Most TV stations will have the capability to broadcast 1080p. (Especially as older equipment wears out & is replaced by newer equipment).

TI as well as a few other companies that TI deals with, are expecting to start broadcasting 1080p possibly as early as 2012, but more than likely 2013.

Now this information comes from the top of a big HD Television company.

OF COURSE.... things can change.. and they always do.

TGC

[CharlesH]

And the 60GB version is the only one that is basically(99%)fully backward compatible with PS2 games. The 80GB version is around 90% backward compatible while the 40GB version is NOT backward compatible at all with PS2 games.My understanding is that the 60GB version has an actual PS2 processor chip in it, which is why it is essentially fully compatible.

[aaronwt]

Well being the fact that I do work for TI (Texas Instruments) and several of the TI Board members. I get alot of inside information. The DLP chip has been & will always be 1080p capable. When I talked to several of them. ALL of the PROFFESIONAL level Digital HD Cameras on the market today are capable of filming in 1080p. So starting VERY soon, MOST shows will be filmed in 1080p. (In case they want to release said show on HD-DVD, or Blu-Ray). They also said. that within in the next 10 years. Most TV stations will have the capability to broadcast 1080p. (Especially as older equipment wears out & is replaced by newer equipment).

TI as well as a few other companies that TI deals with, are expecting to start broadcasting 1080p possibly as early as 2012, but more than likely 2013.

Now this information comes from the top of a big HD Television company.

OF COURSE.... things can change.. and they always do.

TGC

How do you get around the MPEG 2 that broadcast uses here in the US? They are only limted to around a 19mbs bandwidth. At least in Europe they use MPEG4 which would take up much less bandwidth. 19mbs MPEG2 1080P24 looks pretty bad right now.

[TexasGrillChef]

How do you get around the MPEG 2 that broadcast uses here in the US? They are only limted to around a 19mbs bandwidth. At least in Europe they use MPEG4 which would take up much less bandwidth. 19mbs MPEG2 1080P24 looks pretty bad right now.

I haven't heard them discuss that much. I will have to ask & see what they tell me. Who knows maybe a new format will be released. Not that we don't have enough formats allready.

TGC

[Luke M]

Don't talk about p as p. Talk about p24, p60. Define your p. I believe there is an ATSC format for (1080)p24, perhaps p30?

Yes, although as far as I know nobody is using it. Since 1080/24p can be broadcast as 1080i, there's no motivation to use 1080p.

Neither Blu-ray or HD-DVD supports 1080/60p, and broadcast 1080/60p won't happen any time soon, if ever.

[Joybob]

Yes, although as far as I know nobody is using it. Since 1080/24p can be broadcast as 1080i, there's no motivation to use 1080p.

Neither Blu-ray or HD-DVD supports 1080/60p, and broadcast 1080/60p won't happen any time soon, if ever.

Well they can support it but HD movies are filmed at 1080p24 so that's the best you can get realistically.

[rardijoh]

So if I am buying a new plasma, whats the point of getting a 1080p over a 720p. I intend to watch sports most of the time

[Surrealone]

CAB2,
Good move on the PS3, I got a Sony SXRD 1080p 55in and also my S3 and hook up all with HDMI cables very clean and I also hook hook up my PC. I also have S2 in my bedroom. alll connected to my network and have had nothing but good news. I even burned a HD
BLU-RAY show off of my S3. With no problems.

[EVizzle]

So if I am buying a new plasma, whats the point of getting a 1080p over a 720p. I intend to watch sports most of the time

the 1080p set will deinterlace an interlaced signal,
for bluray and hddvd and videogames
future proofing for when 1080p is broadcast

I replaced an older 1080i/720p LCD because it was older and had ghosting and black level issues with a 1080p plasma because of BluRay and videogames. New higher end LCDs look great, no matter what though...

[HiDefGator]

So if I am buying a new plasma, whats the point of getting a 1080p over a 720p. I intend to watch sports most of the time

Keep in mind that the 1080p set often has other features that are different other than just the 720p\1080p. I ended up with a 1080p set because it had the other features I wanted, the 1080p was just gravy.

[Laserfan]

So if I am buying a new plasma, whats the point of getting a 1080p over a 720p. I intend to watch sports most of the timeDo the math: 1920x1080 vs. 1280x720 pixels. The 1080 set has twice the pixels, 2x the resolution.

Whether you can see this improvement depends on the size of the display and your seating distance.

[SDJack]

Do the math: 1920x1080 vs. 1280x720 pixels. The 1080 set has twice the pixels, 2x the resolution.

Whether you can see this improvement depends on the size of the display and your seating distance.Sorry... resolution is dependent on pixel count but you need to double the pixels both horizontally and vertically to truly double the resolution... which means you increase the pixel count by a factor of 4. In practice, the difference between 1280X720 (720p) and 1920X1080 (1080p) is not as pronounced as you might think on screens smaller than 60 inches. The HD display's other characteristics such as internal video processors, brightness and contrast have a greater impact on perceived sharpness than pixel count in most cases. Considering that you can pick up high quality 720p displays at less than half the cost of 1080p right now, I'd say you'd be better off with the 720p if you're looking for a screen 50" or smaller. For example, Panasonic's 720p plasmas will likely give you a better picture than Vizio's 1080p displays.

Re the OPs original question... although it's counter-intuitive, most videophiles actually prefer to output 1080i to their displays than 1080p. The reason is that displays generally do a superior job of deinterlacing and/or upscaling than cable boxes, disc players, etc. The internal video processors that do all the work in today's displays are much more sophisticated than those in the boxes.

[jrm01]

Agree with SDJack's comments, with one modification. I do believe that viewing distance also has to be considered. I would put the cutoff at 46" if you are sitting less than 10 feet from the set.

However, other factors do make a big difference as mentioned. I would agree with those mentioned and also add backlighting. A good quality 720P is usually better than a budget 1080p.

[Joybob]

1. It depends on the distance from the television and the size of the television. this article (http://www.carltonbale.com/2006/11/1080p-does-matter/) has a great article explaining when 1080p becomes better than 720p.

2. If you're gonna watch sports and you wanna save some cash you may as well stick to 720p. It's cheaper and most sports are broadcast at 720p since it's better for fast action. With a 1080p you'll end up scaling then 720p image which might blur it, depending on how good the display is.

[jbrasure]

Here is my concise opinion:

If you are just going to watch broadcast movies and TV, then save your money and just get 720p or 1080i. They both look fabulous.

However, get 1080p if you plan on watching Blu-Ray movies, HD-DVD movies, video games, or a computer. 1080p is particularly important for a computer.