Thanks Tivo! Now What About SDV?

[dolfer]

Dear Tivo,

The latest updates for Tivo HD and Series3 are great. Official eSATA support, TTG, and MRV are all awesome. Hell, even my Series2 seems greatly improved and much speedier with the latest updates.

However, we have one last obstacle left... SDV. You really need to focus all of your energy into resolving this issue!

Time Warner Cincinnati, and many others, are starting to deploy more and more HD channels via SDV. How soon before they move ENTIRE tiers of HD programming over to SDV. Tivo HD and Series3 users will be screwed!

Please, please, please get this fixed! And please keep up the great work.

Thanks,
Dolf

[TiVoPony]

Here's the latest info we have to share. (http://customersupport.tivo.com/LaunchContent.aspx?CID=CBECF1B9-88DE-4B74-82C1-754C3260112A) Good progress is being made.

Pony

[mazman]

Any possiblity that the SDV fix will also allow for On-demand, pay-per-view, etc.

[20TIL6]

I wanted to chime in too. Not so much about SDV. I'm confident there will be a resolution.

But with regard to the latest updates, AWESOME!! Just great stuff guys. Thanks for all your hard work, both technical and I'm sure, political.

Having MRV on my multiple S3 and HD units has opened up a whole new world of usage for my family. It works wonderfully. My transfer speeds are remarkably fast. I'm just starting to play around with TTG, but it looks great as well.

I've had TiVo since the SAT-T60 with DirecTV, and obviously I did not have these network features. But I dumped DirecTV to keep TiVo several months ago, and these latest features (since I had not experienced them before) just confirmed that I made the right choice.

Great job!

[Graymalkin]

H'mm. Wil this adapter require some cabling to be attached to it? It also sounds like it means the front cover on the THD won't be able to close, so it won't look as neat. Of course, that's a price I'm willing to pay for full cable coverage.

[Revolutionary]

Here's the latest info we have to share. (http://customersupport.tivo.com/LaunchContent.aspx?CID=CBECF1B9-88DE-4B74-82C1-754C3260112A) Good progress is being made.

Pony

Pony, thanks for responding. However, I have a nit with that support page, and I hope you can reassure me that I'm "reading it wrong."

I'm quoting the below from a couple (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5565482&&#post5565482) of posts (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5568977&&#post5568977) I made when that support page first surfaced.

Cox announced this morning that they will be carrying TBS-HD and CNN-HD.

This puts the list of HD channels that Cox has added or announced, that I won't be able to receive with my S3, at:

1. Discovery HD (ann.)
2. TLC HD (ann.)
3. Science Channel (ann.)
4. Animal Planet HD (ann.)
5. NFL-HD (launched)
6. TBS-HD (ann.)
7. CNN-HD (ann.)

Throw in the imminent addition of SciFi-HD and USA-HD, and I seriously have to think about my commitment to my S3. In terms of "what we watch," these channels carry as much content as the networks (if not more).

That support page is at least a welcome sign of acknowledgement from Tivo.

But the premise that "Certain cable operators are using switched digital technology to add new niche channels or eliminate duplicate feeds of premium channels" is crap.

Sure, the channels that Cox has moved from digital to SDV are niche (international, shopping, Spanish language, "lifestyle"), but the channels that they are ADDING are not. Not to reiterate our list above, but CNN, USA, TBS, Discovery, TLC, Animal Planet, and SciFi are hardly niche (NFL and Science Channel are arguably niche).

I would feel a lot better if Tivo's only acknowledgement of either the problem or the eventual solution had a greater sense of urgency to it, rather than a blase "this could be a problem in the remote future for a few of our subscribers that are interested in unconventional, niche programming" attitude. :mad:

[andyf]

Gray, the device will plug into the USB port on the back, not attached to the card on the front.

I think it will look like a USB cable on one end, on the other end it will be attached to a block with coax connectors on each side, one to attach to your wall and the other to attach to TiVo cable in. That way TiVo can inject the signal into the cable feed to turn on the channel via USB while not interrupting the cable signal itself. I presume the SDV commands are done via OOB signalling.

------------
To Tivo cable in -----| |-----To Wall plate
------------
|
|
|
To TiVo USB port


This is just a guess, I have no idea how it will work in reality.

Edit: Sorry, leading spaces seem to be filtered,

[dig_duggler]

'widely deployed' is a rather ambiguous timeframe.

[Maeglin]

Any possiblity that the SDV fix will also allow for On-demand, pay-per-view, etc.
Simply having 2-way hardware, even if it is a kludge, doesn't mean that a standard protocol or implementation is in there for that sort of thing... short of the evils of OCAP, that is. You can't have a conversation if the two parties involved aren't speaking the same language, even if they're both using speech to communicate.

Once the groundwork is in place, though, then in theory such support could be added down the road. Of course, that's assuming that the cable industry could be talked into entertaining such an idea in the first place. Denying UDCP devices access to channels because of SDV is going against the spirit of the FCC's mandate that cable companies separate channel access from everything else to allow third-party devices to receive encrypted digital cable channels. PPV and VOD are arguably part of that "everything else".

[Ralph Wiggum]

Any possiblity that the SDV fix will also allow for On-demand, pay-per-view, etc.


That's my big question as well.

[HDTiVo]

Here's the latest info we have to share. (http://customersupport.tivo.com/LaunchContent.aspx?CID=CBECF1B9-88DE-4B74-82C1-754C3260112A) Good progress is being made.

Pony
Good to hear that remains the case.

I have written that I expect SDV will be taken care of in a timely enough fashion that buying cableCARD based TiVoes today should not be a big concern.

Don't make me look stupid. ;)

[PPC1]

I don't plan to buy my second S3 until this issue is resolved.

[Austin_Martin]

I don't plan to buy my second S3 until this issue is resolved.

I'm in exactly the same boat. I feel stupid paying more for less. Although I like the tivo, it's hard to justify missing channels such as some of the kids one's (disney, etc), as well as hd espn2, hd a&e, etc.

[BrianAZ]

I'm in exactly the same boat. I feel stupid paying more for less. Although I like the tivo, it's hard to justify missing channels such as some of the kids one's (disney, etc), as well as hd espn2, hd a&e, etc.


I'm in the same boat. Have cash burning a hole in my pocket for 2-3 additional TivoHD's and an eSATA drive but that's all on hold until the SDV situation is resolved. Want to be certain I'm not putting all my eggs in a basket that doesn't receive all offered channels.

[Sevenfeet]

This isn't just a solution for us Tivo customers (although I'm sure that we're the biggest users of Cablecard by far). ANY Cablecard TV would be subject to this problem. Many of them have USB ports so a firmware update from the TV manufacturer could be done (still a PITA for most non-technical customers). Any device without a USB interface would be SOL.

[dolfer]

Pony, thanks for the quick reply.

Just one more question, if you have a second?

Will Tivo provide (sell?) this device? Or is this something we have to get from the cable company? I sure hope it's coming from Tivo since the cable cos have absolutely no incentive to get it out quickly!

[tmesser]

I think it will look like a USB cable on one end, on the other end it will be attached to a block with coax connectors on each side, one to attach to your wall and the other to attach to TiVo cable in. That way TiVo can inject the signal into the cable feed to turn on the channel via USB while not interrupting the cable signal itself. I presume the SDV commands are done via OOB signalling.

I was guessing that the cable wouldn't need to physically plug into the USB dongle, in the same way that the cable doesn't plug into the CableCARD.

But I could be wrong, too. We'll have to wait and see how this solution turns out.

[HiDefGator]

If SDV were on my cable system, I would already consider it to be "widely deployed."

[Mars Rocket]

How do I tell if my local cable company is using SDV? Is the information posted anywhere, or do I just know it when I come across a black screen on a channel I should be getting?

[moyekj]

How do I tell if my local cable company is using SDV? Is the information posted anywhere, or do I just know it when I come across a black screen on a channel I should be getting? Sticky in this forum has summary of current SDV deployments (getting pretty widespread):
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=357703

[dolfer]

How do I tell if my local cable company is using SDV? Is the information posted anywhere, or do I just know it when I come across a black screen on a channel I should be getting?

Mars, Time Warner Cincinnati puts a "preview" channel in place of the real channel. I am not sure what others do.

Check this forum. If no info, maybe check out AVSForum. If nothing is there, check out your cable company's web site. Use Google to deep dive into the site and see if there are any mentions of SDV or related topics.

[jlb]

However, we have one last obstacle left... SDV. You really need to focus all of your energy into resolving this issue!


I am very excited to hear Pony's rather quick response to the SDV issue. But I would "argue" that there is another issue out there, though not as big. I would really like to see the TiVoHD be able to associate guide data/map to the clear QAM channels. I plan on getting an HDTV (with HD Tuners built in) at some point in the near future, but will be keeping my basic cable at $10/month. I'll be able to get the clear QAM local HDs for free (by law) along the cable coax. However, until the TiVoHD can associate guide data with some often strange channel numbers, I will be limited to splitting the cable signal and only watching those free QAM HD channels live.

So, my $.02 is that this is also another issue that needs to be resolved, but there are far fewer people who will be impacted by this than those that will be impacted by SDV if nothing was done about it.

[rainwater]

Will Tivo provide (sell?) this device? Or is this something we have to get from the cable company? I sure hope it's coming from Tivo since the cable cos have absolutely no incentive to get it out quickly!

Since it will have to communicate with the headend, I can't imagine anyone but the cable company providing it. But no one knows for sure.

[classicsat]

Any possiblity that the SDV fix will also allow for On-demand, pay-per-view, etc.

The foot is in the door for that, since the Tuning resolver could do the two-way communications, although I think the NCTA/Cablelabs may draw an line in the sand for the what Tuning Resolver will resolve, and absolutely refuse to let PPV and VOD be tuned with it.

[Rwood]

For those of us in Hawaii, "wide spread" is now. Oceanic Time Warner will not sell HD and Cablecards to the same customer.

[megazone]

Here's the latest info we have to share. (http://customersupport.tivo.com/LaunchContent.aspx?CID=CBECF1B9-88DE-4B74-82C1-754C3260112A) Good progress is being made.It amused me to no end that, right now, that link gives a "Service Unavailable" error. :-)

[megazone]

Any possiblity that the SDV fix will also allow for On-demand, pay-per-view, etc.Right now - no. The NCTA has said that the Tuning Resolver will only handle SDV as there isn't a standardized interface for VOD or PPV.

However, once the hardware exists and is working for SDV, the barrier to developing a working solution for VOD/PPV is reduced and thus becomes more likely. And cable MSOs actually have more incentive to support VOD/PPV than SDV, as they earn significant revenue from those services.

[Gregor]

It amused me to no end that, right now, that link gives a "Service Unavailable" error. :-)


I just clicked on the link and it worked for me :)

[megazone]

I was guessing that the cable wouldn't need to physically plug into the USB dongle, in the same way that the cable doesn't plug into the CableCARD.Actually, I believe it will. The tuning resolver will contain the hardware needed to communicate with the head-end plant, probably a DOCSIS modem for DCG and/or something that speaks QPSK. The TiVo - and other CC devices that would use the resolver - lack the hardware for the communication needed for SDV. So that transceiver will need to be linked to the cable.

[megazone]

I just clicked on the link and it worked for me :)Yeah, it came back a few minutes after I posted.

It was still funny. :-)

[megazone]

The foot is in the door for that, since the Tuning resolver could do the two-way communications, although I think the NCTA/Cablelabs may draw an line in the sand for the what Tuning Resolver will resolve, and absolutely refuse to let PPV and VOD be tuned with it.It doesn't make sense for them to refuse - since they'd be cutting off their nose to spite their face - they make gobs of money off VOD/PPV, why deny access? They'd only hurt themselves.

But the issue is that there are no standards to handle VOD/PPV this way - other than a full OCAP stack and all the joy that brings. There are a myriad of proprietary systems deployed today. But once the tuning resolver it out there for SDV, you might see some movement toward developing a standard for VOD/PPV signaling because of the revenue potential.

[SCSIRAID]

It doesn't make sense for them to refuse - since they'd be cutting off their nose to spite their face - they make gobs of money off VOD/PPV, why deny access? They'd only hurt themselves.

But the issue is that there are no standards to handle VOD/PPV this way - other than a full OCAP stack and all the joy that brings. There are a myriad of proprietary systems deployed today. But once the tuning resolver it out there for SDV, you might see some movement toward developing a standard for VOD/PPV signaling because of the revenue potential.

Does Big Band Networks and Scientific Atlanta use the same SDV interface? Was it architected prior to implementation to drive standardization? That would be good!

[Joybob]

Does Big Band Networks and Scientific Atlanta use the same SDV interface? Was it architected prior to implementation to drive standardization? That would be good!

The Tivo Series 4 will be out by the time they hammer out the differences.

[TexasGrillChef]

H'mm. Wil this adapter require some cabling to be attached to it? It also sounds like it means the front cover on the THD won't be able to close, so it won't look as neat. Of course, that's a price I'm willing to pay for full cable coverage.


From what I hear it will connect to the USB port of the TiVo

TGC

[astrohip]

I don't plan to buy my second S3 until this issue is resolved.
It comes down to how affected an individual is. I'm lucky that SDV doesn't *appear* to be on the near-term horizon here. If it's already being rolled out where you are, then I would be reluctant too. But if it's something that MAY come to your area, and you have a need for a 2nd S3, why would you deprive yourself? Again, it all comes down to how directly it impacts each of us individually.

I had said several months ago I wouldn't get another S3 until MRV was available. I rec'd my 2nd S3 today, and it's already hooked up & doing its thang. :up:

[jacksonian]

SDV is "widely deployed" at my house. TWC just added 10 new HD channels, all on SDV. Luckily, so far, they aren't deal-breaker channels for me, but it's getting close. I have 2 S3s and would love to add another or a THD in 2 more rooms. But if we don't get a dongle soon, I'll have to abandon ship for satellite.

[sbourgeo]

I am very excited to hear Pony's rather quick response to the SDV issue. But I would "argue" that there is another issue out there, though not as big. I would really like to see the TiVoHD be able to associate guide data/map to the clear QAM channels. I plan on getting an HDTV (with HD Tuners built in) at some point in the near future, but will be keeping my basic cable at $10/month. I'll be able to get the clear QAM local HDs for free (by law) along the cable coax. However, until the TiVoHD can associate guide data with some often strange channel numbers, I will be limited to splitting the cable signal and only watching those free QAM HD channels live.

So, my $.02 is that this is also another issue that needs to be resolved, but there are far fewer people who will be impacted by this than those that will be impacted by SDV if nothing was done about it.

If you have Comcast New England like I do, you may find that the TiVo HD maps most of the major networks to their OTA channel equivalents (with the exception of WBZ 4) automagically.

For example, if I change to QAM channel 86-1 (WCVB 5), it goes right to cable channel 5-1. There is no guide data for this of course, but it is frustrating to see it there for OTA channel 5-1. Having rudimentary mapping functionality would be freakin HUGE, and would make my setup absolutely perfect.

[ToddNeedsTiVo]

Having rudimentary mapping functionality would be freakin HUGE, and would make my setup absolutely perfect.
It does seem pretty lame that you can't tell the TiVo that QAM channel x equals OTA channel y. This doesn't require any additional guide data to be provided because you'd be linking it to a channel for which guide data already exists. Given all the stuff that they tackle in the software, that doesn't seem insurmountable to me. I don't get it.

Having said that, I think handling SDV is a higher priority, but clear QAM should really be usable without CableCARDs.

[hockeyinsd]

While I still have a good old S2ST humming away in my bedroom, my living room was upgraded 8 months ago to HD. Having Dish and knowing that if I went HD I would lose my tivo in my living room, I gave serious consideration to going with Cox, but decided to stick with Dish given the uncertainty of SDV. San Diego hasn't deployed SDV yet (as far as I know), but when I called Cox to inquire about the Center Ice package with cable cards I kept getting different answers. So I decided not to risk it. Plus, Dish currently has more HD channels that I watch than Cox has (not trying to open the HD can of worms debate). I miss my Tivo, the 622 for dish is decent, but not a tivo. I for one am hoping for the tuning resolver and soon. Once cable can move more towards SDV I am hoping for more Center Ice HD channels and home and away feeds. That is what really keeps me with DISH. I'd imagine SDV would free up more space for those items. Once the tuning resolver is available and ALL channels are available I may consider the move to an HD Tivo. I miss my tivo on my HD set.

[Jazhuis]

Having said that, I think handling SDV is a higher priority, but clear QAM should really be usable without CableCARDs.Especially since a minumum set of clear QAM is a mandatory cable broadcast requirement (some exceptions may apply). Now that 9.1/9.2 have broken some manual functionality in this realm, something really needs to be changed, not to mention all the data collection TiVo is missing out on by not letting us tell them which channels we're actually watching!

I will agree that SDV is the bigger, looming issue, though. Unfortunately, I wonder how much they actually have to do for a while, though, since I'm pretty sure the NCTA is doing most of the initial development work.

[SugarBowl]

If SDV were on my cable system, I would already consider it to be "widely deployed."

TWC is already denying new channels to cablecard customers, in the 'anticipation' of moving these channels to SDV.

[SCSIRAID]

TWC is already denying new channels to cablecard customers, in the 'anticipation' of moving these channels to SDV.

AND removing existing channels....

[ncbagwell]

I just wish we had some idea what kind of timeframe we are talking about before a tuning resolver is available. If it's 6 months, I can handle it. Anything more than a year and I'll have to rethink additional HD Tivos.

I had to wait slightly less than 1 year on MRV and that was about the max I could handle.

[bbocaner]

Please hurry. When I signed up for cable just a few months back they assured me they had no plans at all for SDV. The techs that came to install my cable cards didn't even know what it was. Then one day I got a letter from the cable company saying I'd need to "ditch my pathetic legacy one-way device in favor of one of their awesome cable boxes!" (ok, I'm paraphrasing -- but that definately was the subtext) and a few weeks later I lost several of my favorite channels. :(

[hddude55]

Good to hear that remains the case.

I have written that I expect SDV will be taken care of in a timely enough fashion that buying cableCARD based TiVoes today should not be a big concern.

Don't make me look stupid. ;) I totally disagree with you. I don't see how anyone could responsibly advise someone to buy a cablecard-based TiVo until this problem is fixed and the tuning resolver is actually offered by affected cable companies. Has anyone in the know -- if such a person exists -- even ventured a guess at when this solution will be in the marketplace?

I live in the Phoenix area and hear we may be one of the next markets for SDV. I made a mistake buying my series3 and blame no one, although no one at Cox warned me about this possible issue -- as if any of their sales staff even today would even know what SDV means!