Local Best Buy isn't marketting the TiVo HD very well

[morac]

I've been into my local Best Buy a few times over the past few weeks and they have a TiVo HD setup in a nice looking kiosk in the HDTV section, but every time I go there it's always sitting on the guide setup screen, specifically the dialing screen.

Finally the last time I was there I canceled the guide setup and set it up in demo mode. It's connected to a crappy display where the colors are all screwed up (everything's purple) and there is no sound, but at least now it's playing the demo.

It doesn't seem like Best Buy is making any effort to try and sell TiVo HDs.


On a side note I saw a open box item S3 sitting there for about $540 (which seems kind of expensive for a pre-opened S3). I also saw a returned TiVo HD behind the counter in customer service area.

[MickeS]

You're crazy. Tom Rogers says that retailers push the TiVo a lot with great service and great displays. Are you saying he's a liar??

;)

[George Webster]

I know what you mean. At my local store they have the Tivo displayed on a shelf, not hooked up to a TV.

The nearest TV was about 30 feet away. Asked the salesman to see it work. He would not even hook it up to a TV. Unbelievable retards.

[jrm01]

I've been into my local Best Buy a few times over the past few weeks and they have a TiVo HD setup in a nice looking kiosk in the HDTV section, but every time I go there it's always sitting on the guide setup screen, specifically the dialing screen.

Finally the last time I was there I canceled the guide setup and set it up in demo mode. It's connected to a crappy display where the colors are all screwed up (everything's purple) and there is no sound, but at least now it's playing the demo.

It doesn't seem like Best Buy is making any effort to try and sell TiVo HDs.


On a side note I saw a open box item S3 sitting there for about $540 (which seems kind of expensive for a pre-opened S3). I also saw a returned TiVo HD behind the counter in customer service area.
Is that Roosevelt Blvd store or Mount Laurel?

[jrm01]

Best Buy has 3 basic types of stores. The two largest categories are supposed to have the THD on display in the store demo mode. The smaller category does not have a display model and no easy way to display it.

Rogers has begun a new initiative to get the BB (and others) employees familiar with the THD by offerring a reduced price for the employees. It is beginning to have an effect (just started this month) as 3 of the 7 employees here have just ordered one. Hopefully this will help the education process.

The store with the open box tivo is actually violating a tivo policy. They do not permit them to be sold as open box. They must be returned to tivo.

[RoyK]

You're crazy. Tom Rogers says that retailers push the TiVo a lot with great service and great displays. Are you saying he's a liar??

;)
:eek: :eek: :eek:
;)

[HDTiVo]

By now Rogers should be able to give some color on actual TiVo HD sales but he is silent. He mentions only that the box was out early (I say too early based on bugs, but OK that got fixed in 1 month…) retailers love the price, and are focused on it with a new level of support. Just look at the displays he said.

I haven’t been out much lately, but if what I saw at Best Buy Sunday when I went in to replace a busted Netgear router is any indication, apparently a dark, hard to find aisle with no display or demo is the new level of retail support. I need to get out more I guess.

Continuing to avoid any real answer related to actual sales, he babbled about the “service” being important in selling the boxes, which of course it is not; it is features and price/terms in a different way than he perceives “service.”

From my review of Rogers' investor interrogation on Tuesday.



Rogers has begun a new initiative to get the BB (and others) employees familiar with the THD by offerring a reduced price for the employees. It is beginning to have an effect (just started this month) as 3 of the 7 employees here have just ordered one. Hopefully this will help the education process.


What is the offer that is generating those orders?

[20TIL6]

I was at my local BestBuy maybe a couple of weeks ago. They had a TiVo HD out on display with a small flat panel behind it. The TiVo looked to be powered on, but the display had a 'no signal' message. I looked at the back of the TiVo and found that the HDMI cable had come loose. So I just pushed it back in, and the display came to life. The TiVo demo was playing. No sound though. I think BestBuy had removed the speakers from the TV. :confused:

So I left it with the demo playing, but with no sound. And I really wonder how much interest a display like that would get.

Why couldn't they tether the remote somehow and let people really play with it? I think that would be more valuable. It's all about ease of use and differentiated features afterall. I'm not sure a muted demo brings that across.

Maybe the employee discounts for BestBuy folks will spur interest. I know I have seen vendor employees in retail stores talking directly to customers about their products. Apple comes to mind, and I have even done that myself for the company I work for. What if TiVo worked up a deal where their own TiVo owners/subscribers spent some time in a BestBuy or CircuitCity driving a display unit through actual functions in front of retail traffic? Possible? I'd be willing to do that for maybe discounted service on another TiVo unit. If they offered a lifetime service on another unit for so many hours of demo work, or so many TiVo units sold, I bet they'd have quite the willing army.

Just some thoughts, because I have the feeling that the retail channel is dropping the ball when it comes to new customers.

[rainwater]

My closest Best Buy has a THD hooked up to a LCD TV in the middle of the HDTV section. It actually looks very nice and it has always been running in demo mode every time I have seen it.

[HDTiVo]

Money spent by TiVo bribing (err, incentivizing) retailers to feature TiVoes will be wasted as long as the disastrous "service" plans Rogers introduced 1.5 yrs ago remain in place stunting sales. The money will only serve to keep SAC excruciatingly high.

There is no justification for commitments or excessive monthly "service" charges on the hi def TiVoes. They are sold at little subsidy on average, and offering the "service" in the same way as an S2 makes no sense. Its a wrong headed approach on top of another wrong headed approach.

Driving volume in the SA business by correcting the flawed "service" strategy will allow for much lower marketing spending and much lower SAC, and generate sufficient numbers of profitable subscribers to significantly improve TiVo's financial results.

[HiDefGator]

There is no justification for commitments or excessive monthly "service" charges on the hi def TiVoes. They are sold at little subsidy on average,

The CEO recently said their were no subsidies when a TivoHD was sold for $299 on the Tivo.com website. There are subsidies when they are sold every where else. Amazon and Best Buy don't pay $299 for them and that is what they cost to make.

[demon]

The store with the open box tivo is actually violating a tivo policy. They do not permit them to be sold as open box. They must be returned to tivo.

Seriously? I got my first TiVo (Series2 DT - yeah, I know) as an open-box unit from Best Buy. Got a nice deal on it too. Had no idea...

[wierdo]

The CEO recently said their were no subsidies when a TivoHD was sold for $299 on the Tivo.com website. There are subsidies when they are sold every where else. Amazon and Best Buy don't pay $299 for them and that is what they cost to make.
Sounds like $12.99/mo with a 1 year commit would be sufficient to overcome that relatively small subsidy, then. No need for the ridiculous pricing.

All of us here on TCF are fully aware of how to get reasonable pricing for the TiVo service. Joe Blow is not. He hears "3 years" or $19.99 a month, throws up a little in his mouth, and returns the box.

While TiVo can keep things going as they stand for several more years, for long term success, they have got to get the price down. Most people just aren't willing to both pay for the box itself and pay a premium for the service relative to what their cable company's monthly fee is.

[morac]

Is that Roosevelt Blvd store or Mount Laurel?
The one in the Moorestown Mall shopping center which I guess is Mount Laurel.

Also the TV it's hooked up to is a tiny less than 20 inch, widescreen TV/DVD combo player. It is a HDTV though since it is hooked up via component cables. There's no audio cables hooked up though. The TiVo's remote was just sitting on top of it; someone could walk off with it if they were so inclined to do so.

[HDTiVo]

The CEO recently said their were no subsidies when a TivoHD was sold for $299 on the Tivo.com website. There are subsidies when they are sold every where else. Amazon and Best Buy don't pay $299 for them and that is what they cost to make.
If you want to get down to really fine detail, while he said there is no subsidy on TiVo.com sales, he did not say there was no profit or that it costs $299.

Anyway, not justification for contracts.

[jsidlosky]

Blossim Hill Best Buy in San Jose, CA:

They have their TivoHD hooked to a tiny 17" widescreen LCD and its all fuzzy (almost like analog snow) even though its hooked up Component, I have no idea how that is happening.

The demo is playing though, with sound, its just a HORRIBLE picture on a tiny display.

It certainly doesn't make me want to buy it.

[jrm01]

What is the offer that is generating those orders?
I am not permitted to say, but suffice it to say I had no immediate plans to get a third Tivo, but could not pass up this limited time offer.

[jrm01]

The one in the Moorestown Mall shopping center which I guess is Mount Laurel.

Also the TV it's hooked up to is a tiny less than 20 inch, widescreen TV/DVD combo player. It is a HDTV though since it is hooked up via component cables. There's no audio cables hooked up though. The TiVo's remote was just sitting on top of it; someone could walk off with it if they were so inclined to do so.
I have forwarded this info to the HT Supervisor at that store. Let's see if it improves.

[Dr_Diablo]

I've been into my local Best Buy a few times over the past few weeks and they have a TiVo HD setup in a nice looking kiosk in the HDTV section, but every time I go there it's always sitting on the guide setup screen, specifically the dialing screen.

Finally the last time I was there I canceled the guide setup and set it up in demo mode. It's connected to a crappy display where the colors are all screwed up (everything's purple) and there is no sound, but at least now it's playing the demo.

It doesn't seem like Best Buy is making any effort to try and sell TiVo HDs.


On a side note I saw a open box item S3 sitting there for about $540 (which seems kind of expensive for a pre-opened S3). I also saw a returned TiVo HD behind the counter in customer service area.

The same applies here in my town at Best Buy...

There are 4 stores here... When at Best Buy, I look to see how many units they have in stock...

They don't keep them on the floor, the Tivo's are stored up on a shelve against the wall...

I asked why they did this... Was told they aren't selling well, mostly because the devices are defective, with a 95 % return rate now... Sounds about right... :down:

[HDTiVo]

I am not permitted to say, but suffice it to say I had no immediate plans to get a third Tivo, but could not pass up this limited time offer.
Perhaps TiVo needs to take that as an indication of how to move boxes to the general public if they are going to continue to do what they do with "service."

What can you tell us about TiVo's efforts to get BB to prominently show TiVoes and have their sales people push TiVo?

[morac]

I asked why they did this... Was told they aren't selling well, mostly because the devices are defective, with a 95 % return rate now... Sounds about right... :down:
They keep the S3's up on that high shelf as well. If the HDs in the store currently have the broken firmware on them it wouldn't surprise me if people return them before they have a chance to upgrade to the newer software.

[brothers]

Let's talk about BestBuy employee's familiarity with the product:

My seven-year-old S1 is gradually dying - freezes up a lot; has missed the season premieres of my wife's three favorite shows (this is, of course, my fault, according to "The Rules" :)

Anyhoo, I decided it was time to upgrade. I web-ordered two TiVo HDs for pickup at a local BB (not the closest; that one didn't have stock, this one is a half-hour drive).

Ran out last Sunday morning to pick them up; they fashed about in the back room for about five minutes, came out with a couple of grey/black boxes prominently labeled "TiVo HD", we did the credit card/driver's license thing, and I'm off to home. A small voice in the back of my head is saying "I wonder why they changed the box color?" (I had read a review that mentioned the red box).

Get home, haul the boxes in, whip out my pocket knife to slit the tape seal on one of the boxes, and just before I do that I notice the "32 hours of HD" feature listed on the box. Hmmm... thought the THD was rated at 20 hours of HD. Put the knife down, read a little bit more, and realized these were _Series 3_ HD units. $800 TiVos, rather than the $300 units I had ordered. Momentary crisis of conscience :) Quickly resolved; I had made a conscious decision to buy the THDs, because of a number of technical improvements over the Series 3s.

Back to BB (I sure enjoyed spending my Sunday commuting back and forth to BB). Carry the two boxes inside, back to the customer service counter, same guys are there. Put boxes on counter, tell them they gave me the wrong units. Show them the paperwork that says "TiVo HD". They look at the boxes that say "TiVo HD". Give me the "God, how I hate clueless customers" look. I tell them I ordered $300 TiVos; these are $800 TiVos. Now I get the "Is this guy insane?" look. I say something about the newer units being technically superior to the older ones. Now it's the "Yeah, right" look.

Finally, I point out the model numbers on the paperwork and the boxes. They call back to the stockroom, spend about ten minutes back and forth with SKUs and model numbers (I'm chorusing in the background "It's a red box"). It seems there are no red boxes/THDs in the stockroom; they're all out on a high shelf in the TV area of the sales floor. Finally, about twenty minutes later, a guy brings out two red TiVo HD boxes. One of them is seriously crushed in along one edge (he thought I wouldn't notice this???). I decline to accept that one; ten minutes later he comes back with an un-crushed box. Back to the car, two actual TiVo HDs in my arms, and off to home.

I do wonder how many S3s have been given to customers who ordered THDs, and who at BB is gonna get shot at dawn come inventory time.

- Dennis

[jrm01]

Perhaps TiVo needs to take that as an indication of how to move boxes to the general public if they are going to continue to do what they do with "service."

What can you tell us about TiVo's efforts to get BB to prominently show TiVoes and have their sales people push TiVo?
Tivo provided material in September for a 15 minute in-store training of all Home Theater employees. They also provided the low special offer pricing in October for the employees, but in order to get the discount the employee had to take an on-line study course and pass a test. In order to continue with discounted subscription the employee has to take follow on exams every six months.

The best way to get non-commissioned minimum wage hourly employees to push a product is to make them an enthusiast. It is beginning to have some affect, but a slow process (right now 2 of the 3 employees who got the new units can't get cablecards to work yet).

[ufo4sale]

BestBuy has been selling TiVo's like this for years and TiVo can't do a thing about it.:(

[jrm01]

Let's talk about BestBuy employee's familiarity with the product:

........................................................

I do wonder how many S3s have been given to customers who ordered THDs, and who at BB is gonna get shot at dawn come inventory time.

- Dennis
Not a good experience. Confusion comes from the fact that both models say Tivo HD on the box. When they are purchased in the store the barcode is scanned, so there should be no mix up. However, on "pick up" orders it is usually not scanned. However, the code is supposed to be checked at Customer Serviice and at LP (the guy up front in the yellow shirt). Apparently this wasn't done.

I think I would also take some issue with your description of the THD as being technically superior. It does have a few better features and components, but not to the extent that I would call it superior.

Enjoy your new TiVos.

[SMWinnie]

Remember when Rogers announced the mass-market priced HD box that the big box retailers could sell along with the 42" LCDs? How do you suppose Amazon and Best Buy like not boxes sold through their channels being eligible for lifetime service transfer.

[jrm01]

BestBuy has been selling TiVo's like this for years and TiVo can't do a thing about it.:(
Best Buy (and other CE retailers) work best with customers who come in to buy a computer - "Here are the options", or a TV - "Here are the options", or a HTIB - "Here are the options", etc.

No one comes in to buy a DVR. They may come in to buy a Tivo, but in those cases they usually know about the product and want to pick it up.

In one year I have mentioned Tivo to about 100 customers (I only work one day a week - golf 5 days), 10 have been interested enough to hear more details, and two have bought it. That does not count the 8-10 who have come in specifically to get a Tivo, no sales pitch needed.

[jrm01]

Remember when Rogers announced the mass-market priced HD box that the big box retailers could sell along with the 42" LCDs? How do you suppose Amazon and Best Buy like not boxes sold through their channels being eligible for lifetime service transfer.
I don't see the detail numbers for our store, but from my best guess as to what they are I just calculated that Tivo was .015% of our total sales this year. I doubt that they are very concerned about lifetime transfers of Tivo.

[brothers]

Not a good experience. Confusion comes from the fact that both models say Tivo HD on the box. When they are purchased in the store the barcode is scanned, so there should be no mix up. However, on "pick up" orders it is usually not scanned. However, the code is supposed to be checked at Customer Serviice and at LP (the guy up front in the yellow shirt). Apparently this wasn't done.
Yeah, after the fact I kind of wondered why there was no scanning at the web-order pickup counter. As far as the Loss Prevention (yellow shirt) guy, he didn't move a muscle either time I walked by him with two boxes in my arms. In his defense, he had clear line-of-sight to my dealings at the customer service/pickup counter, and the fact that the blue shirts weren't chasing me probably legitimized my exit.

I think I would also take some issue with your description of the THD as being technically superior. It does have a few better features and components, but not to the extent that I would call it superior.
I'm counting on the better components, in the long run.

Enjoy your new TiVos.
I will.

- Dennis

[EVizzle]

The problem/solution in ANY retail store is the chain reaction. In the shop I frequent, which I frequent a lot, I run into this all the time. They are DirecTV enthusiasts because their main home theater expert is a directv fan. I have always been a cable guy because in my area weather, especially winter weather has been an issue with a dish. They have brand preferences in terms of home theater products, computers and digital cameras. My personal preference is often different, and the employees that I know on a more personal level often ask me why I choose what I choose. I find brands that I have had good success with, services that I really like and stick with them as long as I am happy. I am not overly brand loyal, but when something works like I want it to I stick with it.

I am a big fan of ipods and recently upgraded from a 30gb photo and 60gb video by replacing the photo with a touch. I was asked if I would ever consider a zune, and my experience with the ipod has kept me with them.

I am a big fan of Netflix too, and although Blockbuster has in store advantages, the movie selection and my loyalty to Netflix over 5 years keeps me with them. This one I often have to justify.

Playstations for me, no XBOX. HP computers until I found an awesome little Sony laptop and will probably stick with them for a while. Canon cameras, etc.

So, the problem comes when one "expert" sticks with a certain brand or service, not tailoring his or her sales strategy based on customer requests and soon the expert becomes the posterboy for that service in the store. Other employees blindly follow those recommendations as well as new employees, so soon an entire market is eliminated.

I think that is the biggest problem for Tivo. It takes a serious fan to get people excited about a great product that has a mediocre alternative, especially when the salespeople haven't even tried it. Every time I am in, I am telling them how awesome it is but it takes more than one dude to overcome this. Without hard core fans working in the home theater department you will never get the new customer to buy when they can try through their service provider. It is also hard to be the first to put your word on something different especially if you have not tried it.

The solution? A more effective marketing campaign, I say. As much as "my Tivo gets me", what does that mean to someone who doesn't have a Tivo? What makes Tivo great? Season Pass, quick remote response, suggestions, searches by actor, wishlists, an easy interface, that little jump back when fast forwarding through commercials and a great remote. What slows down other DVRs? Sluggish response, worrying over a missed episode, annoying interface and the need to rewind and fast forward so many times to try to skip commercials that you are better off just watching them.

Aside from giving free tivo boxes or free months of service to employees, I dont think much can be done in the big box stores. Word of mouth is great, I turned my initial Tivo purchase into 4 more customers, but how many people don't have a friend who loves Tivo? Too many people right now!

[jrm01]

EVizzle,

I agree with a lot of what you say, but there are some exceptions to what you say. One would be large screen TVs. Most CE store employees are either part time students and part time workers, or are just starting a family on a low wage job. They usually don't have experience with high end TVs. They can use their personal experience to tell you whether they like Vizio, Olevia, Westinghouse or Insignia, but they won't have experience with Sony XBR4 LCD or Pioneer Plasmas. Hopefully they will be knowledgeable about the technical specs and customer reviews, but their opinion won't be tainted from personal experience.

As far as TiVo is concerned, the vast majority have never considered it do to cost. They won't be able to relate any personal experience. Some will know about the cable company DVR and that is it.

It is also difficult to explain to a customer what the monthly cost differential will be for TiVo vs. a cable company DVR. Most cable companies do an excellent job of hiding the real monthly cost of their DVR. It is included in many bundles. If a customer wants to switch, what will he save in his cable bill? That's hard to say. How will it affect the bundle price? Will he still have to pay for another digital A/O? What is the cable card cost? The answer varies from region to region, and even from CSR to CSR when you talk to them. I know that when I made the switch I had to negotiate with many phone calls before I got what seemed like a reasonable cost. And I have to get back on the phone everytime they have a price change and forget that they promised me no charge for cablecards or Digital A/O since I wasn't taking their DVR in the Premium Bundle.

As I said before, TiVo is a hard sale in the retail store. I usually have only two types of successes (1) The customer who has done his homework and comes in to buy a TiVo and only needs help selecting the model, and (2) the customer who just wants the best of everything and isn't that price conscious.

Many people confuse sales and marketing. CE stores may be able to sell TiVos, but only TiVo can market them.

[EVizzle]

True, sorry if I mixed up marketing and sales, but I think if Tivo better marketed to CE stores and their employees, cost would not be an issue. If something is substantially better, a small monthly fee of 10 or so dollars is well worth it to almost every customer. Customers pay between 5 and 15 for DVR service, Tivo is 12.95 with a 3 year, so it is a wash. Give free Tivo service to employees and the service would skyrocket!

[jfh3]

What Tivo needs to do is what IBM tried with the OS/2 Ambassador program - get those of us that understand Tivo to volunteer to help with marketing in the big box stores.

I've done this at a number of local BB and CC stores - I just wear a shirt with a Tivo logo on it and stand by the kiosk. I've even asked employees if we could set up a unit in demo mode and had them do it for me.

Amazingly, no one (except for potential customers) has ever asked me who I work for (when they ask, I tell them I don't work for Tivo, but am a Tivo fan). I did have a BB employee ask me if I worked on commission or had a quota - I said no. :)

[Dr_Diablo]

When I was first interested in a Tivo purchase, be it the HD of S3 model, the sales people knew next to nothing about the device. You'd think they would have had at least one employee have a handle on any new product that is sold in house...

Of the 4 BB in my area, I found only one gentleman at BB that had a clue what a Tivo is/was...

[renkablue]

I wanted to put my 2 cents worth in: I am a newbie with Tivo. How I got started was talking to people and finding out that there is equipment that will do the SEARCH for actor, director, film name. I went on the web and googled it and saw an ad for Replay and Tivo. Replay wasn't available, except on ebay. Tivo had this website and the boards. Read a lot on the boards. Got on ebay and purchased a Series 2 - this is my starter - got it set up with USB adapter and Cat6 ethernet cable. Plan to upgrade, but I am reading the boards to learn alot about Tivo HD. Being and enthusiast about Tivo features will get the ball rolling in some cases.