TiVo Fall 2007 Update Apparently Breaks TivoToGo/Toast on the Mac

[fredric100]

Success!

Give it a try.

Hi all. Unfortunately TiVo Decode Manager 2.1 yielded the same old bloody audio problems as TTG in my case.

Workflow:
1. Xfer from Series 3 to Mac Mini using TiVo Decode Manager, MPEG2 format
2. Save the MPEG2 file as a Disk Image using Toast
3. Mount the disk image, play back using OSX DVD Player

Configuration:
1. OSX 10.4.11
2. TiVo Series 3
3. TiVo Decode Manager 2.1 writing MPEG2
4. Toast Titanium 8.0.3

Result = skipping audio

I also tried the MPEG4/Import to iTunes option on TiVo Decode Manager. In that configuration, TiVo Decode Manager simply failed to create an object file on the Mac side.

[culpeppa]

"I also tried the MPEG4/Import to iTunes option on TiVo Decode Manager. In that configuration, TiVo Decode Manager simply failed to create an object file on the Mac side."




Hmmm... that's the option I used that worked. Ah well.

[fredric100]

Hmmm... that's the option I used that worked. Ah well.

So it looks like this is still broken for many Mac and Windows users, and for many people there are no good workarounds.

In 1 week we've had 46 letters to the TiVo CEO complaining about this bug downloaded by people reading this thread. That's excellent. If we can hit around 100 downloads, I'm going to try to get some external press/blog coverage of this issue to increase the pressure. It's disgraceful that TiVo lets this situation continue.

The letter is here (http://www.rockmyhdtv.com/ttg_audio_problem/letter-to-tivo-ceo.html). Every letter sent by a new person helps.

[rufusryker]

I have a Mac Powerbook G4 running 10.4.11 and a TiVO Series 3. TTG is working for me so far, but I only use it for transferring video to my iPhone. I was going to buy Roxio software, but after reading this board I had second thoughts.

I'm using the widget NowPlaying 2.5.1 to transfer programs from my TiVO wirelessly to my mac. Then I use MPEG Streamclip 1.9 to convert the file to Mp4 format in the proper dimensions. I then drop the file in iTunes and sync it with my iPhone. So far, so good. The image quality looks great. I did have to buy the MPEG-2 playback component from Apple ($20) to make this work, but everything else is free.

However, I have not used these programs to burn a DVD yet. Someone should try using NowPlaying to pull the file from TiVO and decode it, before sending it to Toast to burn a DVD.

[Sparkylulu]

I appreciate others saying that they have figured out a workaround, but this is ridiculous.
I shouldn't have to get a workaround. I have Toast. I have TTG. It used to work. It should work now.
Where is Paratox or patatox or whatever his name was?????

[fredric100]

Thanks very much Rufusryker. At your suggestion I tried a transfer using the NowPlaying widget, followed by a DVD burn using Toast. DVD audio was good, whereas every other workaround has failed for me. I'll do more testing over next few days to confirm.

Configuration:
- OSX 10.4.11
- TiVo HD
- Toast 8.0.3
- TiVo NowPlaying widget 2.5.1 / Download here (http://www.dashboardwidgets.com/showcase/details.php?wid=281) (free).
- QuickTime MPEG2 Component / Download here (http://www.apple.com/quicktime/mpeg2/) ($20).
- MPEG Streamclip 1.9 / Download here (http://www.squared5.com/) (free).

Workflow to Burn DVD:
1. Transfer show from TiVo using NowPlaying widget 2.5.1 (creates MPEG2 file)
2. Burn the MPEG2 file to DVD using Toast 8.0.3

Workflow to Transfer to iPod (per Rufusryker, above):
1. Transfer show from TiVo using NowPlaying 2.5.1 (creates MPEG2 file)
2. Convert MPEG2 file to MP4 and resize using MPEG Streamclip 1.9
3. Drop MP4 file into iTunes, synch to iPhone, etc.

[wdave]

The key to whether that works is in the use of tivodecode, which the Tivo NowPlaying widget uses to transcode the Tivo file into an mpg. So, instead of using Streamclilp (and buying the MPEG2 Component), it's easier to use the free iSquint for the conversion into iPod or Apple TV format (assuming that's your final destination). So for me, this has worked well, and should yield the same success as the above:

Configuration:
- OSX 10.4.11
- Tivo Series 3
- Tivo NowPlay widget 2.5.1 / Download here (http://www.dashboardwidgets.com/showcase/details.php?wid=281) (free).
- iSquint 1.5 / Download here (http://www.isquint.com/) (free).

Workflow to Transfer to iPod or iPhone:
1. Transfer show from Tivo using NowPlaying 2.5.1 (creates MPEG2 file)
2. Convert MPEG2 file to MP4 using iSquint 1.5

Note: In iSquint, use the "Optimize for TV" choice to convert for the higher resolution iPhone. Use Standard quality and H.264 encoding.

[fredric100]

Although it worked for me with one show, the DVD burn using NowPlaying widget -> Toast has failed with different content. Result = same old skipping audio. So, still no robust workaround for burning DVDs, far as I can determine.

[rufusryker]

Fredric100,

Have you tried playing the same file (that you burned with toast) using Streamclip? Does the audio skip in the same spots when viewing that file? If the audio sounds fine, maybe you should then try converting the audio part of the MPEG-2 file. I notice that under the FILE menu in Streamclip is a selection "Convert MPEG with MP2 audio..." Try converting the old MPEG-2 file, and then burn the new file using Toast. I have no idea whether this will work, but it might be worth a shot.

[fredric100]

Fredric100,

Have you tried playing the same file (that you burned with toast) using Streamclip? Does the audio skip in the same spots when viewing that file?

:) Funny you should mention that, I had same idea this morning. The audio DID play properly in StreamClip (with QT MPEG2 component). So I then exported the MPEG2 file from StreamClip to "MPEG with MP2 audio" (a transcode which ran pretty quickly, whereas other transcodes, e.g. to AVI or whatever, took too much time to be useful, even if they had worked).

I'm encoding the exported file as a DVD right now, I'll let you know if it works.

[fredric100]

:)I then exported the MPEG2 file from StreamClip to "MPEG with MP2 audio" ... I'm encoding the exported file as a DVD right now, I'll let you know if it works.

Didn't work (audio still skips).

[rufusryker]

That's too bad. Still, I think we are closer to a solution.

I would go to "Show Stream Info" under the File menu. My audio for a short HD file I decoded is shown as "Audio Tracks: 128 AC3 3/2, 48 kHz, 384 kbps". It shows the video as "Video Tracks: 224 MPEG-2, 1280 × 720, 16:9, 59.94 fps, 80.00 Mbps, progressive." If you look at the Preferences in Streamclip, there are a few interesting options that might do the trick. One check box is for "fix streams with data breaks." If it "fixes" the audio tracks, that sounds like a good option. (See Next Post for info from manual.)

I don't actually own Toast 8, so I can't test this myself. I plan to get a copy soon, along with a new computer with an Intel Duo processor. The G4 is a real dog when it comes to encoding.

[rufusryker]

I guess I also should have looked at the Streamclip manual! It's under the Help menu. (Note that MPEGs decoded from TiVO are NOT automatically scaled to any standard DVD frame size.) I did a simple search for "toast" and came up with the following:

Convert to MPEG...
converts the stream into a muxed MPEG (program stream) file; if the frame size is suitable, you can import this file in Toast 6, 7, 8 or Sizzle and burn it directly, with no encoding time and no loss of quality. Audio is left in its original format (MPEG, AC3 or PCM).
Suitable frame sizes for DVD are 720x480, 720x576, 704x480, 704x576, 352x480, 352x576. If the frame size is not suitable, please try the "Convert to Headed MPEG" command instead. The "headed" conversion is not required for Sizzle.
If Toast stops with an error before burning the file, please enable the option "Fix streams with data breaks" in preferences and try again.

Convert to Headed MPEG...
same as "Convert to MPEG" but adds a special header to the MPEG file that lets you import unsupported frame sizes into Toast 6, 7, 8 and skip recompression. However, DVDs made from "headed" MPEG files are not guaranteed to work with all players. Please DO NOT TRY to open "headed" MPEG files in QuickTime Player (it will crash). Also never try to burn a DVD from MPEG-1 or high-definition MPEG-2 with Toast 6 (it will hang).
The headed conversion shall not be used for Sizzle.

Demux to M2V and AC3...
demuxes the stream and creates an M2V video file and an AC3 audio file; if the frame size is suitable, you can import these two files in DVD Studio Pro or Toast 6, 7, 8, and burn them directly with no encoding time and no loss of quality. For muxed files that have AC3 audio, this command runs faster than Demux to M2V and AIFF, because no audio conversion is performed; and again, the resulting files take less space in the DVD.

Demux to Headed M2V and AC3...
same as "Demux to M2V and AC3" but with the "headed" M2V file that lets you import unsupported frame sizes in DVD Studio Pro and Toast 6, 7, 8. You can't use this command if the audio track is not in AC3 format.

----------------

Ok, my new theory is that the audio skipping and syncing issues occur when Toast attempts to scale and compress the standard MPEG-2 file to a standard DVD format (or other format). This might explain why the file plays fine on several players, but not after a Toast burn. I'd use Streamclip and select "Convert to Headed MPEG," plus enable the option "Fix streams with data breaks" under preferences. If that doesn't work, I'd try "Demux to Headed M2V and AC3," and then import these files into Toast before burning.

[farvoyager]

I have been following this thread because I, too, have been having audio sync problems with Tivo / Toast, etc. After lots of experiments, I have a hypothesis: Tivo files mis-report their frame rate when downloaded (or the framerate information is accidentally garbled).

When Tivo files are translated into mpegs, they report their frame rate as 23.976, but these are NTSC files and their frame rate SHOULD be 29.97.

I have checked their reported frame rate by using Mpeg Streamclip. I have gotten the TiVo files as mpegs onto my desktop both by the "Tivo Decoder Manager" and the "Tivo Decode" script (having used my web browser to get the file itself). In both cases, the resulting mpg does not play nicely with many mpg players and Mpeg Streamclip lists their frame rate as 23.976.

If I am right about this, it would explain why Toast is producing audio sync problems. Toast reads the tivo file and assumes it has to re-encode a 23.976 frame rate up to 29.97, but since the file is ACTUALLY in 29.97, this produces video that falls out of sync with the audio. Indeed, my copy of Toast produces sync problems even with the mpegs that I got by means of "Tivo Decoder Manager" and the "TiVo Decode Script." Since both of those mpeg files also mistakenly report their framerate as 23.976, Toast is bound to go haywire.

At the same time, I think this explains why users are having success with "Visual Hub" and "iSquint." Both of those programs seem to ignore the 23.976 framerate header information and simply ASSUME that they are receiving a standard NTSC framerate of 29.97 / 30 fps. So, when you use those programs, it re-encodes the file AND adds the proper framerate of 29.97 / 30 fps. Not surprisingly, the resulting video plays as it should.

I now have to try the following experiment and I'll report the results:
1. Get the tivo file on my computer as an mpg (either Tivo Decoder Manager or Tivo decode -- doesn't matter)
2. Use Visual Hub to make this mpeg into a .vob file (i.e. native DVD format) which will also acquire the proper frame rate tag of 29.97, thanks to Visual Hub's assumption about the framerate.
3. Import the .vob file into Toast and burn it / save as a disk image.
4. Watch the video and see if it syncs!

If I'm right in my hypothesis, the above process should work. I'll report the results later.

BJ

[fredric100]

If I'm right in my hypothesis, the above process should work. I'll report the results later.

BJ

I just tested BJ's method using the free trial version of Visual Hub (only encodes 2 minutes), with content which had previously resulted in bad audio when burned to DVD via every other method discussed here.

BJ's method worked for me, at least this once. I'll continue testing with other files.

More data to substantiate BJ's hypothesis that Tivo files mis-report their framerate when downloaded (or the framerate information is accidentally garbled), and that this matters to some players/encoders and not to others: the framerates of my content, which is HD, for which the correct framerate is 59.94, are reported as:

59.94 by StreamClip (where audio plays correctly)
59.94 by Toast Video player (where audio plays correctly)
59.96 by QuickTime player (where no audio plays at all)

Let's see if others can reproduce this success. Visual Hub is available here (http://www.techspansion.com/visualhub/tryit.php).

[AZ_Tivo]

Pls ignore.

[fredric100]

I'd use Streamclip and select "Convert to Headed MPEG," plus enable the option "Fix streams with data breaks" under preferences. If that doesn't work, I'd try "Demux to Headed M2V and AC3," and then import these files into Toast before burning.

Hey - these were all good ideas. Results were either that Toast would ultimately hang during the process of encoding the DVD, or that I'd get a DVD with continuous (as opposed to skipping) audio, but with the audio out of synch (ahead of) the video. So as I mentioned above, I'm now testing BJ's "cause = bad framerate header, workaround = use Visual Hub to burn DVDs" approach.

[farvoyager]

59.94 by StreamClip (where audio plays correctly)
59.94 by Toast Video player (where audio plays correctly)
59.96 by QuickTime player (where no audio plays at all)



Interesting! Are you using the MPEG-2 quicktime component (the one that costs 20 dollars from Apple)? I've read that it often won't play sound at all, even when you buy the component. (I, too, have that problem, even though I bought the component!) Somewhere, buried on their site, Apple says that the component is only to *display* the mpeg-2 on quicktime, not to give audio. Thanks, Apple!

How does your HD material play with VideoLan player? VLC is free and plays just about everything. Those results would be interesting, too.

Are you having audio sync with burning HD Tivo that your bring in solely through Toast?

P.S. I'm at work right now and won't get to test my theory more until late tonight. Results tomorrow! Grrr!

Happy testing!

BJ

[rufusryker]

The Apple MPEG-2 component is just a video codec. QuickTime does not play AC3 (which TiVO uses) or PCM audio, only MP2.

MpegStreamclip has a function "Convert to MPEG with MP2 Audio" that converts just the audio tracks so that the resultant files play in QuickTime (and can also be burned to DVD.) I've tried this out, and it works very well.

[fredric100]

Interesting! 1. Are you using the MPEG-2 quicktime component (the one that costs 20 dollars from Apple)? I've read that it often won't play sound at all, even when you buy the component.

2. How does your HD material play with VideoLan player?

3. Are you having audio sync with burning HD Tivo that your bring in solely through Toast?

BJ

1. Yup, I shelled out the $20 for MPEG-2 Quicktime component.

2. Here's how the HD material plays in different players:
VideoLan player: Audio plays correctly. Player does not report framerate of the stream.
Toast Video player: Audio plays correctly in the player. However, does not burn to DVD correctly (that's why people are pissed). Player reports correct framerate of the stream.
StreamClip player: Audio plays correctly. Player reports correct framerate of the stream.
Quicktime player: No audio. Per rufusryker (above), after conversion to "MPEG with MP2 Audio" using StreamClip, then the audio plays correctly. Player reports incorrect framerate of the stream.
Miro player: No audio. After conversion to "MPEG with MP2 Audio" using StreamClip, then the audio plays correctly. Player does not report framerate of the stream.
RealPlayer: No audio. After conversion to "MPEG with MP2 Audio" using StreamClip, then the audio plays correctly. Player does not report framerate of the stream.
Windows Media player: "File format is invalid."

3. Yes, I get "skips" or breaks in the audio when I burn my TiVo HD content that I import (and process) exclusively in Toast to DVD .

I just had another successful burn (of 2 minutes worth of content) using Visual Hub Free Trial Version on a second problematic file. I'm hoping your test passes also, in which case I'll become a Visual Hub customer :).

[rufusryker]

BJ, I think you are definitely on to something and visual hub looks like a great work-around. But HD output from TiVO appears to have the correct frame rate, yet it still causes errors in Toast according to fredric. And a large difference in non-HD frame rates would quickly put the sync off by much more than a few seconds.

Out of curiousity I googled "23.976" and "mpeg". A number of interesting results popped up. Clearly the frame rate 23.976 has an origin beyond Toast and TiVO. There's some information about needing a "3:2 pulldown". The relationship between 23.976 and 29.97 has something to do with progressive video and interlaced video.

Take a look at this link:

http://www.animemusicvideos.org/guides/mpegforcons/

"If your video is at 23.976fps, you should check to make sure that 'Frame rate' is set to '23.976 fps (internally 29.97 fps)' and that 'Encode mode' is set to '3:2 pulldown when playback'. This is important. The 3:2 pulldown flag is what makes your 23.976fps progressive video play back as 29.97 interlaced, telecining on the fly..."

This link might have the answer:

http://forum.videohelp.com/topic342116.html

"Setting a "3:2 pulldown" tells playback devices, such as DVD players, how to output 23.976 fps progressive MPEG-2 material to displays that expect a 29.97 fps interlaced signal. That's its purpose. It's also part of the DVD specification for NTSC Film (23.976 fps) material.
If you feed a 23.976 fps MPEG-2 file without 3:2 pulldown to Toast, then Toast will re-encode it to make it 29.97 fps. But if it has the pulldown, then Toast accepts it as compliant."

I've read that this program can "flag" a 3:2 pulldown on an MPEG file:
http://www.ffmpegx.com/

[rufusryker]

I think the following thread has a lot of good information regarding using ffmpegX to flag a 3:2 pulldown and then burn with Toast.

http://forum.videohelp.com/topic324222-30.html

"My general workflow is to take the .avi file, convert it to a muxed MPEG2 .mpg using ffmpegX, check the file for a/v synchronization problems, drop them in Toast, create a disc image, then burn the image...

Many .avi files you will come across will be 16:9 encoded at 23.97 fps, or the FILM framerate. I've found in the past (I haven't verified this for Toast 8.0.3) that Toast will want to re-encode things at the FILM framerate, and this is bad (both for time and for quality). If the .avi file you are converting is 23.97 fps, you want to set the 3:2 pulldown flag in the video stream -- this is a form of "faking" standard the NTSC framerate (29.97) with FILM video. It doesn't change the encoding (the video is still FILM), but it instructs the player to repeat a frame every once in a while to bring it to 29.97 fps. Toast doesn't care, as long as it looks like NTSC or PAL video, it will burn without re-encoding. You should be able to determine the framerate of your .avi file by dropping the file onto ffmpegX and hitting the info button. If it says 23.976 fps, it's FILM, and you need the 3:2 pulldown flag. If it says 29.97 or 25 then it is NTSC or PAL respectively, and you don't need the 3:2 pulldown flag."

[farvoyager]

What is "the 3:2 pulldown flag"? Where do I access that option on Toast?

P.S. I'm running my test now. Toast is SLOWLY encoding my .vob file. I'll report the results!

BJ

[rufusryker]

What is "the 3:2 pulldown flag"? Where do I access that option on Toast?

P.S. I'm running my test now. Toast is SLOWLY encoding my .vob file. I'll report the results!

BJ


I hope it works. It would make things easier for a lot of people to just use VisualHub until Toast addresses the issue.

However, if it does work, it probably means that VisualHub is managing to convert NTSC FILM rate (23.976 fps) to be played at the normal NTSC rate (29.97 fps). I don't think that the 23.976 fps rate that you identified earlier was a random error from Roxio or TiVO or the decoder, or that it was incorrectly labeled. The file was encoded at 23.976 fps. A "3:2 pulldown" repeats frames so the file can play at 29.97 fps.

"PAL has only one value, though NTSC has two values (NTSC and NTSC FILM). Almost all NTSC DVDs are encoded at NTSC FILM rate, while TV or camera material is encoded at NTSC rate. mpeg-2 can also have 3:2 pulldown activated so video encoded at NTSC FILM will be played back at NTSC rate."

Toast cannot execute a 3:2 pulldown. A program called ffmpegX can do it prior to a Toast burn. Maybe VisualHub can as well. I've read about other instances on the web (not TiVO related) where people tried to burn DVDs using Toast with files playing at the NTSC FILM rate, and they have run into problems with syncing and audio skipping.

[fredric100]

Good news: VisualHub just burned 2 good DVDs for me of 2 half-hour HD shows I had transfered using the NowPlaying widget.

The audio was good. Continuous and synchronized to the video.

No other method had succeeded with these files.

Using the default configuration of VisualHub, the final video on the DVD was not quite as good as I used to get with Toast. With motion that should be smooth and continuous, for example a camera pan, or an object moving at a constant rate, the motion has small but observable accelerations and decelerations. But this issue is relatively minor. Besides, I may be able to address it by tweaking VisualHub DVD encoding, or perhaps doing an "MPEG to MPEG" conversion in VisualHub, then encoding the DVD in Toast.

Also, VisualHub doesn't let you create DVD menus like Toast. Again, not a big deal in the overall context of this problem.

The speed of VisualHub for this application was same order of magnitude as Toast.

So I'm ready to say that, for burning DVDs under OSX, NowPlaying widget 2.5.1 paired with VisualHub 1.30 is a good workable substitute for TiVo To Go paired with Toast.

[farvoyager]

Yes, my experiments with Visual Hub worked for regular TiVo TV recorded at 23.976fps. I tried three experiments, all of which began with the TiVo Mpeg File on my desktop:

1. I used Visual Hub to convert the original TiVo 23.976f fps Mpeg to a 29.97fps .vob file (this is the native DVD format so that Toast should not have to re-encode). It also produced a file that was larger (due to the added frames, I'm think).

2. I used Visual Hub to convert the original TiVo 23.976f fps Mpeg to 29.97fps Mpeg. I set it to Mpeg2 on Visual Hub at "Standard Compression" which produced a file that was smaller than the original Mpeg. (To set it to Mpeg-2, you may need the Apple 20$ Mpeg-2 Component.)

3. I used Visual Hub to convert the original TiVo 23.976f fps Mpeg to 29.97fps Mpeg AND I used Mpeg Streamclip (with the Apple 20$ playback component) to trim the video. This file, too, was noticeably smaller.

I put all three files onto a single Toast disc and save it as an image so that I could check the results without making a coaster. The results:

1. Video is as good as the original. Sound in sync.

2. Video is grainier, but at least the sound is in sync. I think if you use Visual Hub to do mpeg to mpeg conversion, you'll have to tinker around with what level of compression it produces so that you can get a video file that looks as good as you want it to.

3. Similar to above, but the video does not start on a dime and I kind of thought that the audio looked like . Although I trimmed it at a key frame to start right before my show began, it starts playing about a second after that. I checked the end of the half hour video I was using and, while it was pretty much in sync, it looked like it was about a split second off. Not sure though.

Per ffmpegx, it would make sense that it could do it, since it is supposed to be the jackknife of video conversion. Although it is free, I have to admit that I find its options overwhelming and confusing, so I use Visual Hub for 20 bucks. I suspect that Visual Hub is really just a pretty wrapper for ffmpegx, but I'll take it since it works for me! ;-)

Although our experiments are limited (and thanks to all for reporting -- it has been extremely helpful), it sounds like we have chased down the problem for regular TV recordings: TiVo records at a film rate of 23.976fps but Toast mis-handles that frame rate. (Honestly, my stand alone players mis-handle it, too, except for VLC; every other video player chokes on the TiVo mpeg file!) For whatever reason, Toast does not mis-handle files that have been upscaled to a standard NTSC 29.97fps. Since 20$ Visual Hub makes the conversion well enough (although it takes a long time), it seems like a temporary work around.

Now, a final question: is Visual Hub the solution for HD TiVo users? (I don't have HD, so I can't test it.) Their files seem to have the standard frame rates, so why is Toast screwing up the audio? And, if Visual Hub works, what is it adding to make Toast play nice with the file?

Happy burning to all and to all a good disc!

BJ

[cnsayre]

Per ffmpegx, it would make sense that it could do it, since it is supposed to be the jackknife of video conversion. Although it is free, I have to admit that I find its options overwhelming and confusing, so I use Visual Hub for 20 bucks. I suspect that Visual Hub is really just a pretty wrapper for ffmpegx, but I'll take it since it works for me! ;-)

BJ

For those interested, I posted a "how to" convert files with ffmepgx a while back:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=370925

cnsayre

[fredric100]

For those interested, I posted a "how to" convert files with ffmepgx a while back:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=370925

cnsayre

Thank you.

Inspection of the VisualHub log files reveals that, like ffmpegx, VisualHub calls ffmpeg.

[cnsayre]

For what it's worth, I've also plunked down the $20 a while back for visual hub and get similar results without all the fiddling. ;-)

[rufusryker]

This is very good news and I'm looking forward to trying this method once I get a new computer system soon.

What Mac systems are people using? I'm sure any of the latest Intel processors will be a huge leap over my G4.

[javabird]

Has anyone tried this since the latest Quicktime upgrade? I burned a few Tivo transfers in Toast over the last couple of days and the sync is fine on the tests I've done so far.

[walterwatts]

It's time to get this fixed. This is ridiculous.

I've posted a letter to Tom Rogers, CEO of TiVo, which you can download here (http://www.rockmyhdtv.com/ttg_audio_problem/letter-to-tivo-ceo.html).

Mail it to him at the address on the letter.

I've worked in the high-tech industry for 20 years. Believe me, if he gets a bunch of these letters, this will get fixed. I'll post the number of letters downloaded in this forum.

- Fred


Nice job there Fred.

I'm mailing it right now as a matter of fact.

Thanks,
Walter

[fredric100]

Nice job there Fred.

I'm mailing it right now as a matter of fact.

Thanks,
Walter

My pleasure. The fact that we've found workarounds for Mac users in no way diminishes TiVo's responsibility to fix this.

To date, TiVo customers have downloaded 71 letters to the TiVo CEO urging him to correct this bug. Hopefully, many of those have been mailed, and many more will follow. The letter is here (http://www.rockmyhdtv.com/ttg_audio_problem/letter-to-tivo-ceo.html).

[fredric100]

Has anyone tried this since the latest Quicktime upgrade? I burned a few Tivo transfers in Toast over the last couple of days and the sync is fine on the tests I've done so far.

I just upgraded to QT 7.4 and it didn't make any difference: TTG plus Toast still gives bad audio on DVDs. Thanks for the suggestion though.

[farvoyager]

Me, too. I tried updating Quicktime and I still get audio sync issues. Something interesting did turn up, however: I tried to burn 4 episodes of a 25 minute show. 2 were in sync and 2 were not. The two that were in sync had chapter breaks but the two that were not had no chapter breaks. Had to do a lot of fast forwarding!

Using visual hub has solved the sync problem for me (combined with streamclip to fix time code and data breaks) but I have encountered a new problem: toast freezes on me whenever I try to make it burn more than 2 sizable mpeg or vob files (roughly 1.3 gigabytes each), even when I do "save as disc image." No matter what Automatic or Custom setting I use, Toast insists on reencoding them and then it freezes during the second or third mpeg file. What a pain!

BJ

[javabird]

Interesting. I've done 5-6 dvds this past week that were all in sync. I will experiment more to see if I can figure out what has changed.

Those of you using VisualHub, have you tried any shows over 1-hr long? I noticed in the past that sync issues only became obvious after 1 to 1-1/2 hr into the program.

[shulcslt]

Earlier today, I decided to "update" my ticket, with Roxio, asking what was going on with this issue.

They replied, with the "standard party line":
"Thank you for contacting Roxio Technical Support

This issue is happening to a very small group of customers, I am sorry that you are one of those customers. I can assure you that Roxio is aware of this and looking into the issue for a resolution."

Since I'm becoming increasingly annoyed, I decided to respond to them with the following:


""A very small group of customers" who were promised a fix months ago. "A very small group of customers" which numbers, at least, in the hundreds judging by the number of posts and views on various boards that I've seen and the normal ratio of those who have a problem and that much smaller group that report it. "A very small group of customers" who are, by their prominent complaints about a feature of Roxio's Toast which is still today being prominently featured in your promotion of the product, negatively affecting Roxio's sales. "A very small group of customers" who are not being given ANY useful information other than "Roxio is aware of this and looking into the issue for a resolution.""

I know it won't do any good, but what the hell, it felt good.

[walterwatts]

This is an excerpt from John Dvorak's latest op-ed, which I found to be appropriate to our thread here:
----------------------------------------
The Terms-of-Service Bugaboo

Agree, or No Soup for You

I have voiced my complaints about these agreements (ie. EULA's, ToS's) before, and the courts seem unable to do anything about it. According to the basic premise, if a company sells you a product that it claims will do x, y, and z, but the license agreement says it really doesn't have to do anything it promised, then indeed it does not have to do anything it promised once you break the shrink-wrap or click "Yes, I agree" on a screen. This is because what you now agree to is something different from what you were initially promised. And you also agree not to complain about it.

One of my favs is the proviso that you cannot complain about the product or review it in a publication unless given explicit permission by the company. A couple of big software companies tried that stunt a few years ago, but it backfired with the public when some writers made a big stink saying, "Hey look, they are legally keeping us from reviewing the product. It must totally suck!! DO NOT BUY IT!" The phenomenon was short-lived but not forgotten.

Generally speaking, a software license and various terms-of-service and terms-of-use agreements say the following:

#1- Whatever you think we said, or whatever we said, about the product may have nothing to do with reality, and you agree not to expect that it does.


#2- No matter what happens, including damage to your equipment or even someone's death, you agree not to blame us even if it is our fault.


#3- If we are a Web site and you use it, no matter what bad things happen, it is not our fault.


#4- If you contribute anything at all to a site or system, we own it.


#5- You will never sue us for anything, ever.


My advice is to have a 13-year-old do all the installations and make all the agreements, since they cannot legally enter into these contracts. I wish someone would try that trick and litigate it.
-------------------
--Walter

[shulcslt]

A few minutes after posting the "update" to my ticket, Roxio Support offered me a refund for Toast 8. Under other circumstances, this would pretty effectively shut me up and make me go away.

However, in this instance, I'm not sure whether I'm going to take them up on it. I have used Toast for years and have upgraded time and time again and continue to use the product for other disk burning tasks. My interest really is for a fix for the A/V sync issue.

[wdave]

I read that refund offer as bad news, that perhaps they don't intend to fix it anytime soon.

[shulcslt]

I read that refund offer as bad news, that perhaps they don't intend to fix it anytime soon.

I was thinking the same thing. Which doesn't please me a whole lot.

[Phantom Gremlin]

I don't have a dog in this fight. But I think it's quite reasonable for a company to offer you your money back for software you're not satisfied with. Isn't that more than fair?

[SnakeEyes]

Is there anyway to get video run through tivodecode to play in Quicktime with audio?

[Sluggo042]

I read that refund offer as bad news, that perhaps they don't intend to fix it anytime soon.

Or that Roxio has realized that the ultimate cause of the bug is something going on in Tivo's software, and that they're thus unable to provide a work around. How often does Tivo update their software? Once, maybe twice a year, tops? Even presuming that Tivo wants to put any effort into fixing something they bolluxed up in the last so-called upgrade in the first place?

Doug G.

[shulcslt]

I don't have a dog in this fight. But I think it's quite reasonable for a company to offer you your money back for software you're not satisfied with. Isn't that more than fair?

Don't disagree, in the least and didn't say anything different, in my posts, I indicated that normally, it'd shut me up and I'd simply go away - satisfied. However, in this instance, I'd really rather have a product that works.

[shulcslt]

Or that Roxio has realized that the ultimate cause of the bug is something going on in Tivo's software, and that they're thus unable to provide a work around. How often does Tivo update their software? Once, maybe twice a year, tops? Even presuming that Tivo wants to put any effort into fixing something they bolluxed up in the last so-called upgrade in the first place?

Doug G.

Doug,

Good point, but, if so, wouldn't it behoove them to at least communicate that, in some way, to us?

Jon

[cnsayre]

Or that Roxio has realized that the ultimate cause of the bug is something going on in Tivo's software, and that they're thus unable to provide a work around. How often does Tivo update their software? Once, maybe twice a year, tops? Even presuming that Tivo wants to put any effort into fixing something they bolluxed up in the last so-called upgrade in the first place?

Doug G.


I think this is the root of it all. If I use other means of getting programs off of my Tivo, the result is the same, regardless of the method. After a while, the Tivo server hangs and I have to reboot the Tivo to resume downloads. This happens on all three Tivos I have, and they're three different Series 2 flavors.

I'm thinking that there's something odd about the way the Tivo talks to the Mac that makes it hang. It's a bug, and it's an annoying bug that I'm surprised wasn't caught prior to release. It's like the quite common update bugs where if you do something in a list, the Tivo returns you to another spot in the list rather than where you just were. If that makes sense.

cnsayre

[Sluggo042]

I think this is the root of it all. If I use other means of getting programs off of my Tivo, the result is the same, regardless of the method. After a while, the Tivo server hangs and I have to reboot the Tivo to resume downloads. This happens on all three Tivos I have, and they're three different Series 2 flavors.

I'm thinking that there's something odd about the way the Tivo talks to the Mac that makes it hang. It's a bug, and it's an annoying bug that I'm surprised wasn't caught prior to release. It's like the quite common update bugs where if you do something in a list, the Tivo returns you to another spot in the list rather than where you just were. If that makes sense.

cnsayre

I think there are several new bugs that are now getting lumped together into this thread. My beef is with the so-called audio sync bug - I've never seen the hang symptom you're describing. Not to dismiss the importance of the symptom you're observing, especially if it's interferring with your use of the program.. I make this point to say that it is possible Roxio is wrestling with several subtle and difficult-to-reproduce problems simultaneously. I'm just hoping that they haven't just given up.

I agree with you on the issue of update bugs - I've noticed the silly list return bug you describe recently. It's nothing critical but continually annoying. It makes a person want Tivo to crank out a fix for it, except that their track record seems to be that they'll break something new for every thing the fix. And one never knows how much more critical the next failure will be.

What I really wish is for Apple to buy Tivo, and have the Steve come in and apply some of that iPod elegance to the product. Not that I expect this to happen.

Doug G.

[Sluggo042]

Doug,

Good point, but, if so, wouldn't it behoove them to at least communicate that, in some way, to us?

Jon

You'd think so, wouldn't you? I'm frankly puzzled about why Roxio is being so blockheaded about this. It surely wouldn't take much effort for someone to make a simple comment about the problem, even if it is just Patrick updating us unofficially once a month here in this forum about what's up.

The only theory I can think of is that if it really is a Tivo-side issue, that the contract between the two companies prevents Roxio from making impolitic comments about their partner. I think that's why I tend to believe the problem is of Tivo's making.

Doug G.

[shulcslt]

You'd think so, wouldn't you? I'm frankly puzzled about why Roxio is being so blockheaded about this. It surely wouldn't take much effort for someone to make a simple comment about the problem, even if it is just Patrick updating us unofficially once a month here in this forum about what's up.

The only theory I can think of is that if it really is a Tivo-side issue, that the contract between the two companies prevents Roxio from making impolitic comments about their partner. I think that's why I tend to believe the problem is of Tivo's making.

Doug G.

I think I pretty much agree with what you've written.

There is one other data point that I think should be thrown into this mix - both of my current TiVo's are Humax DVD burners. I use (actually would LIKE to use) Toast to burn DVDs only for shows that are between 2 and 2.5 hours in length (which covers a lot of films). My default video setting is "High Quality" and the TiVo software, on the Humax units, forces any show of more than 2 hours, even 2 hours and ONE minute, onto two discs, while Toast (when it works) will allow me to get up to 2.5 hours on a disc, with no noticeable loss of resolution. DVDs, burned on the TiVos, do not have the A/V sync issue - even those which will have the problem if I try with Toast.

I'm not sure that this proves anything, but it does, perhaps, point to the problem being Roxio's.

Jon

[Sparkylulu]

Has anyone heard anything? Is there any movement on this problem????

[Sluggo042]

Has anyone heard anything? Is there any movement on this problem????

In short, no.

There's been a little more discussion of the problem over on the Roxio Support Forums (see http://forums.support.roxio.com/index.php?showtopic=28792) but there's really not much new over there. Certainly nothing from Roxio.

Roxio has chosen not to say anything about this problem. They're beginning to close support tickets without having solved the problem. The case may be either that (a) Roxio's contractual arrangement with TIVO prevents them from speaking out regarding the true nature of this problem, or (b) they've decided that the Tivo-To-Go feature (which they still use as a selling point in their advertising) has become more trouble to support than it is worth, and have abandoned its support. I urge someone from Roxio to contradict this, but their actions to date argue against this happening.

Doug G.

[Pictor Guy]

Well, it's good to know. I was about to upgrade from Toast 7 to take advantage of the features of my new TiVoHD's but if TTG isn't working as advertised then I'll save my money.

[wildcardd]

And now...the Lockdown!!!

http://forums.support.roxio.com/index.php?showtopic=28792&st=180

[shulcslt]

And now...the Lockdown!!!

http://forums.support.roxio.com/index.php?showtopic=28792&st=180

Finally at least SOMETHING! Here's what "John from Roxio" posted:

I just wanted to respond to this thread personally and let you know that we have already been keeping an eye on the discussion. We are currently investigating some issues relating to TiVo files both with our Windows and our Macintosh software. We are aware that the issues exist, but at this time we do not have a work around for the issues that are occurring.

At this point, I am going to go ahead and close down the discussion because I don't think it will be beneficial to speculate any more regarding the cause of the problem. Suffice it to say that we recognize that problems exist and we have our top people working on it. Thanks for your patience in regards to this issue.

[Sluggo042]

Finally at least SOMETHING!

Well, I will admit that I'm surprised that we were able to talk about it for as long as we did. I was rather hoping that the increasingly strident tone of the conversation would force them to chime in at some point, so I guess in that sense, we were successful.

But ye flipping gods, wouldn't have just been easier to say something like that in the first place? I still don't get the need for all the mystery.

I wouldn't even mind the thread being locked if that meant it stayed up in the Pinned list, as I otherwise suspect that their hope is that the thread will become progressively pushed down the list until it is totally lost among all the other chatter.

I just wish this gave us some hope of a fix at some given point, but from the tone of his words, it doesn't even sound like they have a lock on the problem yet, much less a fix. Or that they know the schedule for a fix is completely out of their hands, requiring some input from Tivo.

They really need to stop advertising Tivo-to-Go compatibility at this point.

Doug G.

[fredric100]

They really need to stop advertising Tivo-to-Go compatibility at this point.
Doug G.

I agree. I'm going to try to get some press coverage of this issue. The headline is, "TiVo Broken, Customers Outraged, Company Silent." The relevant points:

The Problem
- TiVo to Go is a core feature allowing transfer of recorded shows from TiVo to DVDs and personal media players. The feature failed almost 6 months ago. It relies on software from TiVo and Roxio.
- Both Windows and Mac users are affected.

Response from the Companies
- TiVo has failed to correct the issue after numerous customer complaints.
- Roxio has shut down the discussion of the failure on its support site, and closed the relevant tickets without resolving the issue or publishing a timeline to fix it.
- Both companies continue to advertise the long-time non-working feature to new customers.

Response from Customers
- This thread, documenting the failure, has been viewed 20,000 times.
- Customers have started a mail-in protest campaign to the TiVo CEO, with over 90 protest letters (http://www.rockmyhdtv.com/ttg_audio_problem/letter-to-tivo-ceo.html) downloaded in the past month.
- Customers are considering filing complaints with the Attorneys General in the states wherein these products are sold, under state consumer protection statutes, regarding the unfair and deceptive trade practices of the vendors.

Does this seem about right?

[TiVo Kid 2003]

I agree. I'm going to try to get some press coverage of this issue. The headline is, "TiVo Broken, Customers Outraged, Company Silent." The relevant points:

<snip good stuff>

Does this seem about right?

Awesome. I'd say "couldn't have done it better" but it'd be more correct to say "Couldn't have done it as well."

Factual, concise, direct, and information-dense.

Nice job!

(For the record -- unrelated to your post but commenting on the Roxio thread being closed - I didn't read anything in the Roxio guy's post that said to me "it's our fault". In fact the language was sufficiently vague in several sections as to be "damning silence" with a finger pointing at TiVo. I know there is a problem with TiVo, I don't use Roxio and this problem started after the Fall Update.)

[wildcardd]

I noticed on another site that QuickTime was just updated to 7.4.1. Anyone try this yet? I guess I am hoping that it was a QT issue or did we blow that theory out of the water?

[shulcslt]

Well, I will admit that I'm surprised that we were able to talk about it for as long as we did. I was rather hoping that the increasingly strident tone of the conversation would force them to chime in at some point, so I guess in that sense, we were successful.

But ye flipping gods, wouldn't have just been easier to say something like that in the first place? I still don't get the need for all the mystery.

I wouldn't even mind the thread being locked if that meant it stayed up in the Pinned list, as I otherwise suspect that their hope is that the thread will become progressively pushed down the list until it is totally lost among all the other chatter.

I just wish this gave us some hope of a fix at some given point, but from the tone of his words, it doesn't even sound like they have a lock on the problem yet, much less a fix. Or that they know the schedule for a fix is completely out of their hands, requiring some input from Tivo.

They really need to stop advertising Tivo-to-Go compatibility at this point.

Doug G.

Doug,

I agree wholeheartedly with what you've written. I can't but wonder, though - if the problem is more TiVo's than Roxio's as has been suggested here - why iSquint and Visual Hub, both coming from a developer, with vastly less resources than Roxio (and, I assume, no direct access to input/support from TiVo), handle the files gracefully, with no sync issues.

The more cynical part of me has to wonder if a "Toast 9" "upgrade" isn't the reason for the lack of a fix.

Jon

[Andy D]

Just to add another data point here. I just got my TiVo HD installed this week and I am successfully using TiVoToGo to transfer shows to my iMac G5 and have Toast make iPod files. I've not tried burning DVD's as that was not what I wanted, I only wanted to be able to put programs on my Mac and iPod.

My system:

TiVo HD with Fall 2007 update 9.2...something

iMac G5

OS X 10.4.10
Quickitme 7.4.0
Toast 8.0.3

As for purchased, protected AAC's from the iTunes Store, to my knowledge, right now they do not play on anything other than iTunes or iPod.

When I purchase music from iTunes, I immediately convert it to MP3s so I can use it on my Slimserver network. I have heard that this will also be necessary on TiVo.

I was able to stream MP3 music files from my iMac to TiVo and stream photos from iMac to TiVo. The only thing I do not like is that the slideshow is silent. Anybody know how to have a playlist playing while the slideshow is playing?

I need to get a new computer as my iMac G5 is beginning to show it's age. I hope the current TiVoToGo problem is not an Intel/Mac problem.

Last thought, the promise of TiVoToGo functionality was the reason I purchased TiVo over other solutions (such as Charter's DVR). So it is important to me that it work properly.

[edit]

Oh, yeah, my TiVo does not have any CableCards installed, so I am not receiving digital TV, just the analog cable, and ** none ** of the programs have been in HD. All from TCM or AMC.

Later,

Andy

[fredric100]

I was just contacted by a reporter from CNET after emailing details of this sorry mess to their news tips line. Hopefully they'll shine a light on it. Of course I'll keep you all posted regarding any press coverage which results.

- Fred

[TiVo Kid 2003]

Some butthead exec at Tivo (maybe in Bangalore) is sitting there thinking "You mean covering my ears, closing my eyes & making a loud "MMMMMMM" humming noise won't make them go away?!?!? Jeez, nowadays customers even expect things to WORK!"

I've also found that writing to the board of directors (in spite of the cozy exec-board relationships we've all heard of) can pay big dividends. Just ask my Dad & the board of directors for Toll Bros. builders. A legitimate complaint with supporting evidence never goes ignored by a dilligent / respectable B.O.D. Whether or not TiVo has such a board I can't say.

[fredric100]

A reporter for CNET News.com named Erica Ogg is now researching a story about this issue for CNET. She just emailed me about it. She has read this thread and also contacted TiVo and Roxio for their comments.

THIS IS YOUR CHANCE TO HAVE AN IMPACT. She wants to hear from you for her story.

She needs to know:

How the feature failed? When did you notice? How? What did you do? What exactly has TiVo said to you about it? Would you be willing to discuss your experience in more detail with her?

If you're comfortable with it, please include your name and phone number in your email.

Send your email to Erica at Erica.Ogg@cnet.com
Subject: TiVo is Seriously Broken

Please, please, pitch in and send your email to Erica... if she only hears from me, I'm just peeing into the wind on this.

- Fred

[Sluggo042]

Please, please, pitch in and send your email to Erica... if she only hears from me, I'm just peeing into the wind on this.

- Fred

That was a good idea. I've sent in my own synopsis to Ms. Ogg - as one of the unofficial ring leaders here, I hope it helps.

I've also sent a report in to MacInTouch detailing the problem. If I was a Mac-using TiVo customer just looking to set up a link between my machines, I'd sure like to know beforehand that there are problems with the process before I spent a lot of time trying to fix a problem that was beyond my control.

Doug G.

[Sparkylulu]

I, too, have sent a synopsis to Ms. Ogg. Hopefully the problem will be addressed.
I suggest that everyone who has posted here or followed this thread shoot off an email to her as well. Let's try to get some results.

[fredric100]

I just got a new email from a Senior Editor at CNET, John Falcone. He works with Erica, and tells me that CNET is investigating the problems with TTG.

For the CNET story, John would like to hear from WINDOWS USERS who are having problems with TiVo to Go. Please email John describing your WINDOWS problems at John.Falcone@cnet.com

If you're comfortable with it, please include your name and phone# in your email.

John told me of another article appearing here (http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2008-02/mac-tivotogo-troubles-persist/) today about the problem.

We're starting to get some good press coverage - THANKS to everyone for the help!!

- Fred

[shulcslt]

Can't say much about it, but it looks VERY likely that there's good news out there and real progress being made.

[patatrox]

Can't say much about it, but it looks VERY likely that there's good news out there and real progress being made.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=383982

[fredric100]

Just to update everyone, John Falcone, the CNET Senior Editor, emailed me that CNET is currently working on duplicating the problem in their lab, for a possible upcoming story.

If you have not already done so, go ahead and email CNET to describe your TiVo to Go problems since the Fall Update:

John.Falcone@cnet.com
Subject: TiVo is Seriously Broken


- Fred

[TiVo Kid 2003]

Just to update everyone, John Falcone, the CNET Senior Editor, emailed me that CNET is currently working on duplicating the problem in their lab, for a possible upcoming story.

If you have not already done so, go ahead and email CNET to describe your TiVo to Go problems since the Fall Update:

John.Falcone@cnet.com
Subject: TiVo is Seriously Broken


- Fred

Just did, I'm one of the Windows users with the problem. I mentioned that only my Humax gives me the problem, although maybe it's related to the problems with the channels/programs I record on that unit, as opposed to the unit itself.

A guy who works in our corporate law office (for whatever that's worth) indicated that if TiVo indeed has broken/failed to provide something that users are paying for (TTG), everyone could be eligible for refunds on the monthly fees since the wound was opened, at a minimum. TiVo's silence on all this is damning.

[Craigyg69]

A link to the article:

http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9867932-7.html?tag=nefd.top

[fredric100]

A link to the article:

http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9867932-7.html?tag=nefd.top

To everyone on this thread who sent an email to the CNET reporters: well done :up:

[wildcardd]

To everyone on this thread who sent an email to the CNET reporters: well done :up:

Good job to you Fred. The article was perfect.

At any rate, it looks like Roxio is increasing the priority on this one.

Was CNet ever able to duplicate the issue on their system?

[Sparkylulu]

"One TiVo owner of five years who asked not to be identified said the feature provided by Roxio's Toast software is no longer usable, but that TiVo and TiVoToGo are such an integral part of his and his family's routine, he's not interested in simply changing DVR companies.

"Trouble is, the company still advertises the features on their website as though they are still supporting these features," the TiVo user said. "Most of us don't want a rebate. We want our program to work the way it's supposed to."

Neat.
Looks like we will get results.

[Phantom Gremlin]

A tip of the hat to those of you who got this problem noticed by "the media".

These forums are often "therapy" for those of us with various problems with our TiVo boxes. But bitching here is rarely more than that, since TiVo pretty much ignores the site. Exhibit A is the "Fall 2006" pricing fiasco. After a TiVo representative opened the thread, the company disappeared after the questions got too pointed. And the pricing didn't get improved for an entire year.

Let's hope it doesn't take a year for TiVo and Roxio to fix the current TTG/Toast problems.

[fredric100]

At any rate, it looks like Roxio is increasing the priority on this one.

Was CNet ever able to duplicate the issue on their system?

John at CNET said they were going to try to duplicate some of the problems we were reporting. He didn't share any results with me, but I'll ask him whether they followed through, and if so, what results they got.

[Sluggo042]

To everyone on this thread who sent an email to the CNET reporters: well done :up:

Well, so much for me and Fred getting our invites to the next Tivo and Roxio company parties. :)

Doug G.

[fredric100]

Bitching here is rarely more than that, since TiVo pretty much ignores the site. Exhibit A is the "Fall 2006" pricing fiasco.

That's a good point. I'm starting to think that what we really need is an independent TiVo User's Group that knows when, where, and how to apply its collective mass. That way, when issues like this arise, we could throw some real weight into our contacts with the vendors and the press. Issues such as:

- How much advertising will we tolerate?
- What new features do we need?
- What needs fixing?
- What pricing policies are equitable?

I think there are about 1.5 million TiVo subscribers. If we could capture 2% of them in an Independent Users Group, we could speak out with the voice of 30,000 subscribers when necessary, instead of just talking to ourselves in this freaking echo chamber.

Anyone know if such a group already exists for TiVo users? Would it be worthwhile to form one?

- Fred

[imkidd57]

Just to let you guys know we picked up this story from c|net and have an article on the CD Freaks news page since Saturday. Needless to say there's links back to the c|net copy and this thread: we are not professional news writers but sincerely hope that spreading the word a bit further will help.

[fredric100]

Just to let you guys know we picked up this story from c|net and have an article on the CD Freaks news page since Saturday. Needless to say there's links back to the c|net copy and this thread: we are not professional news writers but sincerely hope that spreading the word a bit further will help.

Hey - thank you very much. It absolutely will help, and thanks also for giving us the heads-up here.

CD Freaks is extremely cool. The story is here (http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/Roxio-Toast-problems-tarnish-TiVos-reputation_.html).

[HaroldBuck]

I- Customers are considering filing complaints with the Attorneys General in the states wherein these products are sold, under state consumer protection statutes, regarding the unfair and deceptive trade practices of the vendors.

Is there the potential for a class-action lawsuit?

[wildcardd]

Is there the potential for a class-action lawsuit?

Let's not go that far. Roxio is working on a fix...finally.

Besides, class action lawsuits only make money for the lawyers.

[TiVo Kid 2003]

Let's not go that far. Roxio is working on a fix...finally.


Not all of us have problems that involve Roxio. Their fix won't help me.

[tygrr]

Add me to the "small subset" of users who feel they threw their $99 bucks away on a copy of Roxio Toast that currently can not burn DVD's from Tivo files. I asked for a refund and Roxio reponded with the pat 15 days return policy. Hope a fix is soon.

[Phantom Gremlin]

Besides, class action lawsuits only make money for the lawyers.
True. But they also

1) cost a company money
and
2) generate bad publicity for the company

The hope is that some combination of #1 and #2 will help deter companies from behaving quite as badly in the future. That's a good thing.

[Sparkylulu]

it's been a week since the last missive.
Anyone hear anything?

[wdave]

Well, I finally gave up and convinced Roxio to give me a full refund on Toast, which I had purchased at the end of October of last year. It took 3 weeks, but the refund finally hit my credit card account this week.

[fredric100]

Well, I finally gave up and convinced Roxio to give me a full refund on Toast, which I had purchased at the end of October of last year. It took 3 weeks, but the refund finally hit my credit card account this week.

Glad they at least coughed up your money.

[Phantom Gremlin]

I think it really sucks that software, overall, is so buggy these days. For whatever reason.

But I applaud Roxio for their policy. I've lost a few dollars here and there on bad software. I've read horror stories of people losing MANY dollars on bad software for which they were unable to obtain a refund.

[Sparkylulu]

So that's what we've decided? Giving up and refunds?
Okay, glad we convinced CNet to do that article. Glad we downloaded all those letters to Tivo and sent them out.

Okie doke.

[fredric100]

So that's what we've decided? Giving up and refunds?
Okay, glad we convinced CNet to do that article. Glad we downloaded all those letters to Tivo and sent them out.

Okie doke.

I totally share your passion about this, but I wouldn't say that getting a refund equates to giving up. On the contrary, customer demands for refunds increases pressure on Roxio to fix the problem.

[Sluggo042]

I, for one, wouldn't say that this is the time to throw in the towel. There are definite signals that the problem is now being addressed, something I wasn't able to say around the time of the CNET article. I think there will be a solution in the not too distant future.

Doug G.

[patatrox]

I, for one, wouldn't say that this is the time to throw in the towel. There are definite signals that the problem is now being addressed, something I wasn't able to say around the time of the CNET article. I think there will be a solution in the not too distant future.

Doug G.

While we haven't received anywhere near the 50 people we wanted to test with, the beta program is moving along quite nicely. There was a new build seeded out to testers yesterday and so far we've had a few positive reports.

If all goes well and further feedback is positive we hope to release updaters for both Toast 8 and Popcorn 3 before the end of next week.

[SoupMan]

If you're still taking testers, I'd join in.

[benvon]

Yeah, how do we sign up to test? I'm game if it's still open.

Ben

[bedelman]

Yeah, how do we sign up to test? I'm game if it's still open.

Ben

Check out this thread started by patatrox...

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=383982

[Alfiejr]

wow that's great news, patatrox. with a target date, no less! got my fingers crossed. i like Popcorn a lot, and it's very frustrating i can't grab stuff off my TiVo with TiVo Transfer. i can see it, but can't get it.

[tivochiguy]

Here's the response I received from Roxio when I opened a ticket a week ago. It took them five days to respond. I tried to online chat before opening the ticket and after 20 minutes working with a tech they gave up and told me to open a ticket myself. Great customer service.

"Thank you for contacting Roxio Technical Support

Do you have the 9.2 TiVo update? If so, this may be the problem. The 9.2 update allows you to use the Series 3 box with TiVoToGo but sometimes causes some copy-write issues with some of the files transfered.

This is an issue that TiVo should be fixing with their next update.

If the information provided does not resolve your issue simply update your webticket with a detailed explanation with the steps you have tried and any error messages you receive. "

Why is this not on Roxio's site!

[bedelman]

...but sometimes causes some copy-write issues with some of the files transfered.

Someone needs to tell them how to correctly spell copyright...

[TiVo Kid 2003]

Anyone else get the Tivo News email today?

Here's a quote that really rammed home a point in my mind, the difference between the Tivo of old, when they were just getting started, and the globalized / distributed / "not my problem" TiVo of today:

"Everyone worked almost straight through without a break the entire month of March," says Bob Poniatowski, a TiVo employee since Day One. "Our engineers spent many nights working and sleeping at TiVo. One of the hall closets was designated for blankets and pillows."

I'm guessing the $10/hr engineers in Bangalore & Moscow aren't exactly staying up at night worrying about the current problems in the TiVo software. And obviously upper management is concerned about the short-term stock price than the discontent within the user community.

Oh well, Rome fell, every empire is destined at some point to collapse.

[Phantom Gremlin]

And obviously upper management is concerned about the short-term stock price than the discontent within the user community.
It might not be concern about the short-term stock price. I could understand that. I might disagree with it, but I could understand it.

Following is my guess as to what is happening.

I think the problem is much more fundamental. The current CEO is a "media type". See coffee house thread that points to a Fortune article. A quote from the article says:

Former NBC executive Tom Rogers has made a priority of signing deals between TiVo and big media firms.

The CEO is a glad-handing dealmaker who is probably so technologically illiterate that all his VCRs used to blink 12:00. Do you think this guy gives a flying f*** about software bugs?

I have no personal knowledge of Mr Rogers. But what I do have personal experience with is managers who don't understand (some aspect of) technology and consequently treat it as simple, trivial, unimportant, uninteresting.

The CEO sets the tone for the company. Many of the technically capable early employees have left TiVo. New management doesn't understand technology and doesn't see the value of having good engineers design good hardware and write good software.

That's how we got to where we are today.

[TiVo Kid 2003]

Many of the technically capable early employees have left TiVo. New management doesn't understand technology and doesn't see the value of having good engineers design good hardware and write good software.

Good point. I meant to ask a rheotorical question in my previous post, "I wonder how many hardware & software staff from the original product are left?"

I know when I've left product development jobs, the people who fill in the vacancy just don't have the same sense of ownership and they don't have the same domain knowledge (and they're usually more junior, as the product is "developed" and now it just needs to be "maintained".)

While I'm not so silly as to say that every TiVo developer should be able to write a device driver in assembly language and dream of code & schematics, when your franchise is a hi-tech "box", you should damn well focus on making on that box works as well as possible.

Instead, Rogers seems more focused on ensuring the TiVo experience becomes more and more invasive.

[Sparkylulu]

well, I give up. The ONLY reason we still have our series 2 hooked up is for me to offload stuff and transfer it to my ipod. When we go HD I'm just going to say, Eff Tivo. I'll go with the crappy DirecTV and be done with it.
What are we going on? 7 months? This is stupid.

[Alfiejr]

Well, Toast 9 reportedly has fixed the problem. so now just waiting for a Popcorn 3 patch.

although Toast 9 has some good new features, it's actually worth buying.

[metivo]

There was a new build seeded out to testers yesterday and so far we've had a few positive reports.

If all goes well and further feedback is positive we hope to release updaters for both Toast 8 and Popcorn 3 before the end of next week.

The end of "next week" was two weeks ago now. Are we to assume that all Toast 8 owners have now been abandoned, having wasted our money in hopes of having TiVoToGo work on a Mac?

Martin

[tivochiguy]

The end of "next week" was two weeks ago now. Are we to assume that all Toast 8 owners have now been abandoned, having wasted our money in hopes of having TiVoToGo work on a Mac?

Martin

I can't agree more. Roxio has provided no updates here to their dedicated user base. I agree that upgrading to a new version of Toast should NOT be the answer.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

I can't agree more. Roxio has provided no updates here to their dedicated user base. I agree that upgrading to a new version of Toast should NOT be the answer.

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2008-03/mac-tivotogo-roxio-responds/

[donsig]

Just noticed this at the Roxio software updates page this morning:

Toast 8 Titanium v8.0.4:
Resolves issue where EyeTV recordings were not visible in Media Browser
Resolves a number of TiVo related audio/video sync issues

Downloading it now.

Jeff

[donsig]

I just successfully burned 2 - 1 hours shows using Toast 8.0.4 that previously had audio-sync problems using 8.0.3.

[fredric100]

Just noticed this at the Roxio software updates page this morning:

Toast 8 Titanium v8.0.4:
Resolves issue where EyeTV recordings were not visible in Media Browser
Resolves a number of TiVo related audio/video sync issues

Downloading it now.

Jeff

Just got the same update notification for Toast 9. Testing now.
Fred

Toast 9 Titanium v9.0.2

* Resolves a number of encoding issues related to high-definition source content and creation of Blu-ray video discs
* Resolves situation where high-definition DVDs would not play back on PlayStation 3
* Resolves a number of TiVo related audio/video sync issues

[metivo]

Burned my first DVD with Toast 8.0.4. Better, but still has audio sync problems.

This TiVo video had bad audio sync problems from the beginning of the video when I burned it with 8.0.3.

Burned with 8.0.4, the DVD audio is fine till around 1 hr 23 mins into the show, but then it's badly out of sync (a second or two) from there till the end of the 2 hr show.

I notice that 8.0.4 didn't come with TiVo Transfer, although 8.0.3 did.

[bedelman]

...I notice that 8.0.4 didn't come with TiVo Transfer, although 8.0.3 did.

Yes it does -- I just installed the update too. You need to enable the checkbox when you're going through setup.

I've found the update works best if you trash the existing Toast 8 folder first (assuming you don't have any of your own files in it)

[metivo]

Ah, thanks, Bob. I missed that because I had managed to accidentally quit out of the installer for 8.0.4 and thus had not seen that option (it still got "installed"). (I saw it in 8.0.3 and 8.0.1 but that was long ago.) I finally figured out that I could run Toast Setup Assistant from Toast's Help menu and was able to get it to install TiVo Transfer from 8.0.4 -- only to discover that it's the same exact version of TiVo Transfer as in 8.0.3.

[derekcbart]

Hi there.

I don't know why this would be, but TiVo Transfer (v1.2.1 comes with Toast 9.0.2) seems to work fine on all programs/channels except for Torchwood on HDNet. The last few episodes only transfer about 5MB before stopping. This was happening occasionally with Toast 8 too so it is probably an issue with the program and/or HDNet, but what could it be and is there anything I can do to fix it?

Thanks.

-Derek

[Dennis Wilkinson]

I don't know why this would be, but TiVo Transfer (v1.2.1 comes with Toast 9.0.2) seems to work fine on all programs/channels except for Torchwood on HDNet. The last few episodes only transfer about 5MB before stopping. This was happening occasionally with Toast 8 too so it is probably an issue with the program and/or HDNet, but what could it be and is there anything I can do to fix it?

My understanding was that some or all of the "failed to transfer" problems are with the TiVo's software and not Toast. Maybe this 9.3 update that seems to be trickling out will help?

[shulcslt]

My understanding was that some or all of the "failed to transfer" problems are with the TiVo's software and not Toast. Maybe this 9.3 update that seems to be trickling out will help?

It doesn't.

[Bija]

I just wanted to post the out of sync problems I have had using TiVo to Go with Toast 8, 9 and Popcorn 3. I have all of these versions because I am the editor of a Mac user group newsletter and am always reviewing new versions of applications our members are interested in.

Up until about a month ago, I didn't use TiVo to Go because my TiVo wasn't hooked up to broadband, but now it is. I was so excited that I could record shows I want to watch somewhere else and transfer them to my Mac to encode to DVD or export to my iPod, or whatever. Popcorn doesn't have any editing abilities to remove unwanted parts of a video, so I just encoded and burned to DVD a few shows. The first three shows were pretty good, although I noticed the quality was a bit degraded from the originals. Then the 4th show I burned to DVD was out of sync with video and sound.

I experimented by using Toast 9.0.2 and Toast 8.0.3 to re-encode the same video and got the same bad results each time. I tried a couple of different recordings and those were also out of sync. I wish now I had paid more attention to the ones that were not out of sync. Because of having 3 different Roxio programs or versions, I am not sure what I used originally to get the good recordings.

There are postings on Roxio's website forums where others are also having problems with the audio/video sync. I guess we may just have to wait for Roxio to fix it.

It does appear to me that if I export videos for my iPod, I get good results--but again, I haven't done any recently and that may have been when things were working better.

If lots of people are having this problem, we need to speak out so it gets fixed as soon as possible.

[bedelman]

Try using the Toast 8.04 update that came out recently. It seems to have fixed a lot of the A/V sync issue

And it's worthwhile to use the Toast Video Player to try to play the .tivo files directly since, in many cases, the A/V sync issue can lie within the source itself.

[GadgetGav]

I don't know if this is related, I suspect it is.
I haven't used Tivo Transfers in Toast much recently, but today I decided to move something from my TivoHD to my Mac. I've done it before, I think with OS X 10.5 installed, certainly with everything else the same except maybe the Tivo software which I have no control over the updating of.
When the download finished and I tried to play the file in Roxio Tivo Video Player, it told me the MAK was not correct. The thing is, I can play another file in the same transfer list and it plays just fine. Both came from the same Tivo, both use the same MAK.
The latest file that plays is dated 3/5/08, the earliest one that doesn't is 4/29/08

Is there anything I can do..? I guess trying the Toast 8.0.4 wouldn't hurt, but I'm not paying Roxio again to "upgrade" to Toast 9.

[shulcslt]

I don't know if this is related, I suspect it is.
I haven't used Tivo Transfers in Toast much recently, but today I decided to move something from my TivoHD to my Mac. I've done it before, I think with OS X 10.5 installed, certainly with everything else the same except maybe the Tivo software which I have no control over the updating of.
When the download finished and I tried to play the file in Roxio Tivo Video Player, it told me the MAK was not correct. The thing is, I can play another file in the same transfer list and it plays just fine. Both came from the same Tivo, both use the same MAK.
The latest file that plays is dated 3/5/08, the earliest one that doesn't is 4/29/08

Is there anything I can do..? I guess trying the Toast 8.0.4 wouldn't hurt, but I'm not paying Roxio again to "upgrade" to Toast 9.

I've seen the same thing, several times. It's a pain in the butt, but I just bring the file over again using Tivo Download Manager and burn the resulting file with Toast. It's always worked.

[GadgetGav]

Thanks. I've downloaded Tivo Download Manager, so I'll look at that solution.

[GadgetGav]

Excellent..! :)
Tivo Download Manager and VLC were able to transfer and play my MPEG2 files. Next I'll try burning them to a DVD with Toast and using the QT conversion function in TDM.

[GadgetGav]

Well, anything other than 'MPEG-2 (native) as the download format crashes mencode on my system. The MPEG route works, so it's not too bad. I guess I'll go searching for help on TDM and mencode.
I'm sure there's more help out there for those apps than there is from Roxio on their $90 one..!

[Ross Hummel]

old posting here but seems related to some issues I have been having.

I am running Toast 9.02. Brought some TiVo recorded movies from the TiVo through TiVo transfer to my machine (Intel iMac) - all was well. Could watch them on the Toast Video Player and could edit out the commercials - GREAT. So, I burn a DVD in Toast of the movie I edited all of the commercials out of and when I play it on apple DVD player (or my home entertainment system) the audio and video are out of sync. The problem seems to be that the edits I did to the video (which show up_or, don't show up in this case_when watching) did not smutaneously happen to the audio - it starts playing and goes through commercials even when the video skips over them.

Any thoughts - the Toast discussion group is not as quick on picking these things up as you folks are - thanks much!

[jtkohl]

Known issue, Roxio hasn't released a fix yet, although they say they have one just about ready (that was a month ago).

I've had better luck using tivodecodemanager (has a CLI tool tivodecode inside) to unwrap the .tivo files into .mpg files, those seem to survive Toast editing better.

But my overall success rate is about 10% moving TiVo recordings to DVD with Toast. Lots of crashes of Toast and failure to obey "reencode never" settings.

[grigby52]

So where are we with this now? No messages since August that I can see. I use Popcorn 3.0.2 and that is the latest version. TivoDecode Manager is way too slow and still it also has sync problems as well. Is there an update or not and if so is it available for Popcorn 3.0.2. I am actually looking at dropping Tivo if I can ascertain that there is a solution for the Fios DVR

[raianoat]

So where are we with this now? No messages since August that I can see. I use Popcorn 3.0.2 and that is the latest version. TivoDecode Manager is way too slow and still it also has sync problems as well. Is there an update or not and if so is it available for Popcorn 3.0.2. I am actually looking at dropping Tivo if I can ascertain that there is a solution for the Fios DVR

you might want to checkout iTiVo. It has taken over where TDM left off.

http://code.google.com/p/itivo/