Anyone mount the Channel Master 4228 in the attic? [Text View]

michael1248

10-01-2007, 11:23 AM

I currently have the Stealth Antenna (Channel Master 3010) in my attic running with a pre-amp. I know it is not multi-directional. I live in Fort Lauderdale and have stations directly to the south (Miami) and to the north (West Palm Beach).

I'd like to improve my overall reception. Does anyone have a Channel master 4228 in their attic? If so, how much signal strength are you losing and how are you running it to your TiVo?

scooby_doo_53

10-01-2007, 12:01 PM

I mounted one in the attic, but it didn't really make much of a difference between my regular radio shack directional antenna I had in there.

I'll qualify that by saying that in the Denver area, the HD signals aren't yet going out with full power (politics about where to put the new HD antennas). At any rate, they are all low power, and I was picking up all the stations with either antenna.

dswallow

10-01-2007, 12:04 PM

I had both the 3010 and the 4228 in my attic; the 4228 was a definite improvement over the 3010 (for UHF, anyway). I also had the Winegard SquareShooter mounted under the eaves and it worked fine, as well.

About 4 or 5 months ago I moved both to a mount on the roof, and now they both perform well enough to get all my stations. I still favor the 4228... I can even aim it at Philadelphia and still get most of the NYC stations as well as many from Philadelphia... though I keep it aimed at NYC to ensure I never have signal issues.

ldturner

10-01-2007, 12:16 PM

I'm using the 4228 in the Attic north of Chicago. Very good performance. 26 miles north of the city.
It's only look through wood siding, no insulation or metal.

Sir_winealot

10-01-2007, 03:54 PM

kdonnel

10-01-2007, 05:06 PM

reh523

10-01-2007, 05:35 PM

Raj

10-01-2007, 05:51 PM

What a shame that such a nice antenna should be confined to the attic. :(

But I see no reason why it wouldn't work. It will work better outside, but it will work in the attic.

HomieG

10-01-2007, 07:57 PM

I've got my 4228 the attic. Relative signal strength on the digital channels here is 92 or better. Not bad for being 32 miles from the closest DTV transmitter. No amplifier. And use about 75-feet of RG6U too. One of our DTV signals is on VHF Channel 10, and the antenna works great there too. Not worth having it outside, at least in my case.

Funny story, though...when I first got the antenna, I experimented with it in the backyard. Good signals (about 70) with the antenna on the ground. I brought the antenna inside. It was still connected to the receiver, and I was still getting signals. Again, 32 miles from the closest DTV transmitter. I thought my receiver was on satellite, but nope, it was on the antenna. Signals weren't great at about 50, but there was signal, with the 4228 inside the house, ground floor, pointed towards a solid wall!

Raj

10-01-2007, 08:07 PM

HomieG - not at all unusual.

Intervening terrain (hills) would do more to attenuate your signal rather than just distance alone.

My next project is to get a TV antenna. I'm weighing the CM 4228 or the Winegard 9095P. I live in the fringe (the TV transmitters I am targeting are on the ESB in NYC which is 48 miles away) but I have heard it is doable. I can receive other signals on VHF and UHF from NYC that are running much less power than the DTV transmitters, but we shall see. It is a challenge, anyway.

Sir_winealot

10-01-2007, 09:06 PM

one thing ive noticed w/it in the attic...you need to work on finding a good spot or the signal can really bounce around a lot.

ive had to move the 4228 twice also...once after 6 mos of perfect viewing, another time after another 4 months of same. i attribute that to tree growth.

as well, on a windy day i sometimes get intermittent dropout...but it's not bad (certainly not bad enuff for me to reposition again).

TyroneShoes

10-01-2007, 09:17 PM

I have the 4228 in my attic as well, and it gets all the local area stations (22 miles away) beautifully.

What's amazing to me is that CBS is in the complete opposite direction of NBC, FOX and ABC ...and I pull 90's in on all of 'em.
I don't doubt you, but what is surprising about that is that one of the things that makes a good ATSC antenna is a high front-to-back ratio, which on paper this antenna has. I normally suggest the 4228 for stations in a single direction (above physical ch 7), but I would not recommend it for stations in opposite directions, and would instead suggest a yagi, which has a lobe to the back nearly equal to that in front (most directional antennae receive better off the back than to the side). The strategy is to point the front towards the weaker or harder-to-receive station, and the rest generally fall in line.

That said, maybe your success is based on being close to the towers, and might not be repeatable for viewers further out. I am about the same distance as you yet I get perfect reception with a chunk of twinlead taped to a window. Some think the 4228 is overkill, but while you can have too much gain (easily attenuated) for a single direction, you can't have too much directionality. Anything's worth a try. I know of viewers who consistently receive signals over 90 miles away.

Sir_winealot

10-02-2007, 09:58 AM

Hey TS...i started w/a yagi, and the signal would bounce all over the place....it was absolutely unwatchable (probably because that too was being used in my attic). drove us nuts.

with the 4228, i too was surprised that it picked up cbs in the opposite direction, as i was told that the 4228 was much more of a directional antenna not as well suited for this purpose. i was pleasantly surprised at how well this worked.

while fox, abc and nbc are 'grouped' due east at around 22 miles, cbs is due west at around 10 miles. as you mentioned, i suspect that the distance/proximity is the reason it works so well.

rickarino

10-13-2007, 08:46 AM

I have a Philips Mant 940 mounted on my roof. I live literally one mile from the transmitters (according to antennaweb d o t org) and all channels I want to receive are at 243 degrees. I have the antenna pointed at the transmitters and I get intermittent dropouts on most of the channels. Some channels I can't receive at all most of the time.

There are a lot of tall trees as well as a concrete noise barrier for the highway nearby that are potentially interferring with the signal.

Will a better antenna or using amplification help, or is OTA OTQ? (out of the question)

Thanks

JimSpence

10-13-2007, 01:17 PM

rickarino

10-13-2007, 08:52 PM

How high is it mounted? The higher the better. Also, being just 1 mile away probably means too strong of a signal. You may need to put an attenuator on the line. A simple test would be to use a splitter, which typically imparts a 3db drop in signal.

It's on a sloped roof of the second story, probably 25' up. I can mount it on the peak for an additional 7' or so. I'll try the splitter and post my results. Thanks for the advice.

willmw

10-13-2007, 09:17 PM

I have one of these in my attic:

http://www.winegard.com/offair/antennas/hd7084p.htm

Yeah, I've got a big attic. :D

technojunkie

10-14-2007, 01:37 PM

I put one in last spring and it made a real difference. With a Radio Shack signal booster I am able to pickup Canadian television that's over 90 miles away. And that signal is in the 90's. Shop around on the web they do vary in price.

newsposter

10-15-2007, 10:12 AM

I have the more expensive DB8 and it worked great in the attic (40 miles out from the towers and a heck of a poor LOS for me) except for a weak channel so they had to mount it on the roof. If your 4228 doesnt work out, maybe fork out the green for the DB8 and see if it works for you.

mr.unnatural

10-15-2007, 01:44 PM

I don't doubt you, but what is surprising about that is that one of the things that makes a good ATSC antenna is a high front-to-back ratio, which on paper this antenna has. I normally suggest the 4228 for stations in a single direction (above physical ch 7), but I would not recommend it for stations in opposite directions, and would instead suggest a yagi, which has a lobe to the back nearly equal to that in front (most directional antennae receive better off the back than to the side). The strategy is to point the front towards the weaker or harder-to-receive station, and the rest generally fall in line.

That said, maybe your success is based on being close to the towers, and might not be repeatable for viewers further out. I am about the same distance as you yet I get perfect reception with a chunk of twinlead taped to a window. Some think the 4228 is overkill, but while you can have too much gain (easily attenuated) for a single direction, you can't have too much directionality. Anything's worth a try. I know of viewers who consistently receive signals over 90 miles away.
There's a simple solution to using the 4228 for receiving stations located in opposite directions - mount two of them facing the opposite way and combine the outputs with a VHF/UHF splitter/combiner. I have this setup on my roof and it works great with absolutely no multipath problems.

michael1248

10-17-2007, 09:08 AM

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions.

One last question:

Knowing I already have the Stealth Antenna (Channel Master 3010) mounted in my attic, can I add the 4228 and run them both together? The 3010 is directional and the 4228 is multi-directional.

Would I be doing more harm than good. How would I connect them together?

TyroneShoes

10-17-2007, 10:12 PM

There's a simple solution to using the 4228 for receiving stations located in opposite directions - mount two of them facing the opposite way and combine the outputs with a VHF/UHF splitter/combiner. I have this setup on my roof and it works great with absolutely no multipath problems.
That's a great solution. What you have effectively done is destroy the front-to-back ratio, but that is exactly what you want to do. This is also good when angles are not 180 out, but some odd number. The choice of 4228 is important, because you have created a bi-directional antenna system, which will have less multipath rejection overall, but still enough at the strategic angles needed (hopefully). Less-directional antennae will probably be more problematic if combined like this.

You can also strategically combine. For instance, if one direction has only VHF while the other has only UHF, you can use a V/U combiner very effectively (be sure to ground the two halves of the reflector together to get better VHF performance, or use a V-only antenna in that direction). There are also join-tenna combiners to optimize a particular situation.

The DB8 is nearly as good as the CM4228, and better if you need low VHF, which the 4228 will not do. It's just more of a monstrosity to mount and install, and more expensive. If you have no channels below 7, the 4228 is a better option all the way around.

Edit: See my later post, as the DB8 info in this one might be ridiculously unhinged

newsposter

10-18-2007, 08:41 AM

The DB8 is nearly as good as the CM4228, and better if you need low VHF, which the 4228 will not do. It's just more of a monstrosity to mount and install, and more expensive. If you have no channels below 7, the 4228 is a better option all the way around.

um, are you saying DB8 will get in channel 6?

whsbuss

10-18-2007, 09:07 AM

Went with the Winegard Square Shooter a few years back. Provides much better signal reception than the 4228, at least for my location. And yes it is mounted in the attic.

I get all the OTA digital signals in the Phila area.

Arod

10-18-2007, 09:44 AM

I had a 4228 mounted on my roof as high as I could get it. I was only about 13 miles from the broadcast antennas. At the time, I was a DirecTV customer and OTA was the only way I could get my local channels. I had very mixed results. Most of the time, I could get 3 of the 4 channels OK with intermittent depixelation. Never did get FOX which I wanted mostly for sports. I also had a rotor so that I had the aiming point directly toward the stations. After reading one of the posts above, I wish I had tried a signal booster.

I finally bit the bullet and switched to Comcast Cable and now get everything great.

I think my main problem was that there are a couple of hills in the way. Also a couple of very tall Douglas fir trees. With DirecTV's big HD upgrade coming by the end of the year, I may switch back to DirecTV. However, I DO like Comcast's On Demand service.

TyroneShoes

10-18-2007, 07:05 PM

um, are you saying DB8 will get in channel 6?
It would seem like I might have said that.

But guess what? If I did, I was wrong. I think I was confusing the DB8 with another antenna, which I apologize for profusely. A thousand pardons :o .

To help clear up any mess I may have contributed to, let's first define "channel 6". If you have a DT channel that tunes in as "6-1", it may or may not be really on physical channel 6, usually not. It is very important to understand this when choosing an antenna.

Also, if that channel is really on a UHF channel and designated to return to physical channel 6 after 2-17-09, your UHF antenna may no longer work, but that is unlikely, as few DT channels will move to low-V slots. Still, it's important to figure these things out ahead of time.

Finally, if you are truly trying to tune in physical VHF channels, an antenna designed for UHF will not get optimum reception for 7-13 (with the exception of the 4228) and will likely have poor reception for 2-6. Since the DB8 is apparently a UHF antenna, that would make my earlier advice very bad indeed if you were to interpret from it that the DB8 would get you channel 6 (again, my apologies).

If all of that is confusing, check out this very enlightening site:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

which will give you the specs on antennae of all kinds. Supposing you really are needing physical channel 6, from the graphs alone you can see at a glance which would be good choices, for instance.

Bottom line, figure out which physical channels you really want to receive, which will move to different channels in 2009, what direction and distance they are from you, and how the terrain and obstacles are in between them and you (start at antennaweb.org, but take their overly-general recommendations with a grain of salt). Ignore all other channels, as that will just confuse matters and compromise the choice of optimal antenna for the DT reception on the channels that are important to you. Then you can use hdtvprimer to sift out antennae that are not relevant, and choose one from the rest that would work the best for your situation.

newsposter

10-18-2007, 08:21 PM

It would seem like I might have said that.

But guess what? If I did, I was wrong. .

well i knew you were wrong but hated to call the great TS out on it :) I agonized over my antenna choice over 2 years ago and knew in 2009 that philly 6 was going from 64 back to 6 and i'd need a jointenna for a vhf antenna :) I also studied the antenna heights and powers on the FCC site to help in my determination. it was soooo fun

but now with HR20 the issue is resolved. All recordings for 6 philly will be on that

texasbrit

10-20-2007, 12:50 PM

It would seem like I might have said that.

But guess what? If I did, I was wrong. I think I was confusing the DB8 with another antenna, which I apologize for profusely.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

.

yes, I thought you would come back to correct your post!

If you are looking for just fringe UHF performance, it's generally accepted that the CM4228 and the Antennas Direct 91XG are the two contenders. The 91XG seems to be better at rejecting multipath, it is very directional. The DB-8 is OK also but the other two have the performance edge where it matters (below channel 52, because above 52 is going away in 2009), and the DB-8 is more expensive than the CM4228 for no real advantages.
None of these three antennas will work for VHF-lo (channel 6 and below), so for those of you unfortunate enough to have a digital station on VHF-lo after 2009, you will need a combo VHF/UHF antenna or a separate VHF antenna just for your VHF-lo channel.
The CM4228 is pretty good at receiving VHF-hi (7 thru 13) if your stations are reasonably strong (say "red" or better on antennaweb.). The DB-8 and 91XG do not have the same performance.

bruhub

10-24-2007, 04:25 PM

When you buy a 4228 does it come with the hardware to mount it in an attic? I'm getting ready to buy one and wondered if I'd need to buy anything else (hardware, etc.).

newsposter

10-24-2007, 06:04 PM

my db8 came with the bracket to mount it on a pole. I bought the pole at home depot i think. My guess is 4228 had a bracket too

this may or may not help but as a temporary test, i used an old broom handle (had a hole in end of it) and put a nail in a rafter and hung the antenna in various places to see where the signal was strongest

vertigo235

10-24-2007, 08:32 PM

I have a 3021 in the attic, works OK, some stations ~35 miles away. I have multipath problems in wind though.

rickarino

11-17-2007, 10:51 PM

It's on a sloped roof of the second story, probably 25' up. I can mount it on the peak for an additional 7' or so. I'll try the splitter and post my results. Thanks for the advice.

I think my problem was with either poor coax cables or an ungrounded splitter. After moving my antenna to a higher point, which was also closer to the entry into the house, and setting up grounding, the signal is perfect.

Thanks.

daperlman

11-17-2007, 10:57 PM

I have the 4228 in my attic.

I am reaching the troublesome time of year for the antenna. There is about a 2-3 week period while the leaves are falling that I have problems with my NBC and ABC stations.

I got a much better signal raising it a few inches but it is now as high as it can be and still be in the attic.

If it wouldn't be so ugly I would move it outside.

I am in Downtown Decatur... and ABC is pretty much the only reason I have mine on the roof. Everything else comes in with a coat hanger, cept PBS that comes in with a coat hanger... but not the channel master.

I never get why people with DVR's that depend on antennas put them in the attic. But getting the best signal, you'd don't need to worry about changing seasons and weather conditions.

There was a time when my roof antenna broke (thanks Direct TV!) where I used this sitting on my mantle and got every single channel.

http://www.affordablehomeelectronics.com/ProductImages/xovision/medium/AN500.jpg

kdonnel

11-18-2007, 02:00 PM

I never get why people with DVR's that depend on antennas put them in the attic. But getting the best signal, you'd don't need to worry about changing seasons and weather conditions.

I have it in the attic because the 4228 is ugly. I would be the only house in my neighborhood with an external antenna and all my neighbors would be constantly complaining to the association. I would end up explaining over and over that the antenna is staying and there is nothing they can do to make me remove it.

So far so good this year though. ABC has remained completely watchable and NBC has only had one night were I ended up watching the SD version of My Name is Earl but was able to watch the HD version of ER.

sloan

11-19-2007, 01:18 PM

I have had a CM 4228 and a Radio Shack $25 antenna in my attic.

The RS antenna seems to like the "sweet spot" I found a little better than the 4228, but it wasn't much difference.

As you are reading, and will find out, antenna setup is an art, and not a science.

It took a few weeks of experiment with my outside antenna of different locations and heights and this and that to find the sweet spot.

I tried the:
Chimney.
Eave (opposite side of the chimney).

I tried a three different heights on the 2 above places.
2 feet, 5 feet and 10 feet.

I tried about 5 locations in the attic, which was essentially "sliding the setup" down through the rafters until I found the best spot.

For me, I got a better situation in the attic, then I then outside the attic.

However, I've only recently discovered the advantages of a attenuator:
http://search.solidsignal.com/?i=1&q=attenuator&site=com&u1=q
into the system.

What I may (I'm speculating) is when the antenna was on the outside of the house, the signal to TOO strong, and by putting it on the attic, I was basically knocking down the strength enough to it worked well.

So yeah, even if you get a CM4228, remember it may take some experimentation. Location, height of the pole, and maybe getting an attenuator would be in the equation.

..

But I have the RS $25 UHF only antenna doing the work now. I still have the CM4228, and I"ve asked for a rotator and attenuator for Christmas so I can experiment some more.

I actually want to have 1 antenna fixed (like the RS is now) and I'm gonna use the 4228 to "hunt out" other signals from neighboring cities.

I will have a A/B switch on the two antennas in this configuration.

..