in-the-clear QAM survey

[cwoody222]

Poll to follow.

Basically I'm asking if you get free, in-the-clear QAM stations from your cable company... what do you get? Just HD locals? More like ESPN HD or Discovery HD? And do the locals, if you get them, have the correct channel number assignments or are they just some random number?

ie: if your NBC station is channel 2 does your QAM NBC-HD appear on your TiVo as 2-1 or as something completely random like 88-2 or something? or does it match your cable company's channel assignment for NBC-HD, like 702?


Due to having too many poll choices please POST info about if you get more than just locals.

[cwoody222]

I'll go first. I get all my locals and nothing else in HD. (two simulcast digital simulcast stations... TBS and E!)

My locals are labeled:

1-1 NBC
1-1 PBS
1-1 Fox
1-2 CBS
1-2 (is blank but I think it's supposed to be The CW but it's not in-the-clear for some reason)
1-3 ABC

They used to be in the 88-x and 89-x range but they moved a few months ago.

[sfhub]

I think the poll is meant for configuration that don't use CableCARD. Once you use CableCARD, the channel #s will always match the cable channel #s.

[Jazhuis]

I can get my locals, both in SD and HD, over clear QAM. There is no indication that any of them have PSIP data passed over the wire, thus they are all in a QAM frequency block.

I also get a number of other stations via clear QAM, most SD, but some HD as well.

[sfhub]

My area has OTA channel #s for cable PSIP. There are some of the multi-cast SD channels which don't have PSIP, but all the major HD locals have PSIP.

[billyjoebob99]

I get all local HD stations mapped to the OTA channel numbers (of course with no guide info). I also get all local channels, shopping channels, CSpans, ESPN, and a bunch of others in SD. These are mapped all over the place but they haven't moved in over a year. I also get to watch whatever my neighbors are watching on PPV. That of course is very hit and miss. Last but not least forty some odd music channels.

[smbaker]

Mine all show up at valid OTA channel numbers, and have been stable (no frequency changes) for the duration I've owned my HDTV, which is about a year.

So, looking at the poll results today, approximately one third of the people would be able to use a no-brainer QAM-mapping mechanism that automatically mapped guide data to QAM channels that matched OTA numbers. This is something that Tivo should support at the very least.

BTW, I just installed my second THD today, and ordered the cablecard installs for both of them even though I swore I wasn't going to give the cableco another dime. I just don't have much faith that Tivo is going to implement QAM mapping. I justified the cost by canceling one of my phone lines that I rarely use, so I can now give the cableco money that I used to give the phone company. Out of the pockets of one thief and into another. If QAM mapping does show up on the feature list, then bye-bye cablecards.

[JJ]

Locally
some of the in the clear channels have PSIP data.
ABC 2.1
FOX 5.1
NBC 11.1
CBS 46.1
The rest MyNetwork, PBS x2, CW, Weather+, TBS, and others are a 'hide and seek' proposition with repeated changes for no apparent reason other than to inconvienence those of us who refuse to have a cable box...

[sbourgeo]

Mine (Comcast):

84-1 PBS
84-2 CW
86-1 ABC
86-2 NBC
87-1 FOX
87-2 CBS

[aforkosh]

I voted for random, but the situation in my area (Comcast--Oakland--SF Bay)is more complex. Over the air channels that have the same number on the cable system map fine (i.e. the HD for 2 is on 2.1, 5 on 5.1, etc.). Channels which are moved appear to have random assignments, as do cable only channels. For example, our NBC affiliate is OTA channel 11, which Comcast maps to channel 3; the HD version is at 116.1).

[minckster]

TWC-NYC has a nice pattern, which hasn't changed for a least a year (except for the addition of 93-1 and 93-2):

qam 1-2 is ota 2-1 CBS-HD
qam 1-4 is ota 4-1 NBC-HD
qam 1-5 is ota 5-1 FOX-HD
qam 1-7 is ota 7-1 ABC-HD
qam 93-1 is ota 9-1 MyNet-HD
qam 1-11 is ota 11-1 CW-HD
qam 1-13 is ota 13-1 PBS-HD
qam 93-2 is TNT-HD

None have PSIP data. The other in-the-clear QAM channels are SD.

[cwoody222]

Interesting that they put thought into it but didn't bother to put them in their right places!

[MickeS]

I voted for how it used to be where I lived before, because I know how it worked there. :)

I got the HD locals, plus a few other SD digital channels (shopping channels, Spanish language channels and local access) in the clear QAM, on xxx-xx style channel numbers.

I THINK I get the locals in HD here too (TWC San Antonio).

[moyekj]

Still early in the poll but as I suspected a lot of places don't have PSIP (or incomplete PSIP). In my case all of the digital simulcast channels have no PSIP at all and even all but 2 HD locals have incomplete PSIP (no channel # information). If you count all the music channels there are in excess of 100 unencrypted digital channels in my system, only 2 channels (FOXHD and ABCHD) map to their OTA channel numbers.

[sfhub]

I think there is some confusion in the expectations. Only the digital locals that come from ATSC broadcast can reasonably expect PSIP channel mapping.

The digital simulcast of analog channels did not come from ATSC digital. They are mpg encoded by your cable company, so if there is any PSIP information, the cable company would need to generate it themselves. Since there is no requirement for them to do this, it is unlikely they will do so on their own, though there could be exceptions.

The channels you can reasonably expect to have PSIP channel mapping information are the HD locals like NBC, CBS, FOX, ABC, PBS, CW, MYTV.

The SD locals that are ATSC-based will also have reasonable chance to have PSIP channel mapping, but it is easy to confuse ATSC-based SD local with digital simulcast SD so it is better to just concentrate on HD locals for less confusion.

SD digital simulcast will very often have no PSIP info. There is very little chance (but not impossible) for digital music channels to have PSIP channel mapping. Would it be nice to have PSIP channel mapping for all channels? Absolutely. It is just that the current FCC regulations only require the PSIP channel mapping for ATSC-based digital channels being rebroadcast on cable, not cable originated digital channels or cable digital simulcast of analog channels.

HD ATSC-based channels will more likely have PSIP channel mapping and the PSIP channel mapping presence will increase over time.

[moyekj]

sfhub, I agree with what you are saying, but aside from the poll the OP also was asking to post about other non-HD local clear QAM channels which is why I posted. In my case only 2 HD locals have PSIP information that gets them mapped to OTA channel #s, so my poll answer was still the one getting most votes: get locals in HD, they're labeled randomly like 88-2

[HomieG]

In-the-clear QAM here includes all the locals in HD & SD, plus The Weather Channel. Also get 40 channels of OnDemand. We can start a program on our main box/DVR and go upstairs and find it somewhere in those 40 channels. Surfing those OnDemand channels in the clear can also be fun!

[moyekj]

In-the-clear QAM here includes all the locals in HD & SD, plus The Weather Channel. Also get 40 channels of OnDemand. We can start a program on our main box/DVR and go upstairs and find it somewhere in those 40 channels. Surfing those OnDemand channels in the clear can also be fun! Yeah it's funny in my system there are 80 unencrypted VOD channels which are actually named VOD1-80 on the Tivos, so it can be fun surfing through those channels occasionally. Of course at any point in time only a handful of them are active - more so during weekends than on weekdays.

[sfhub]

sfhub, I agree with what you are saying, but aside from the poll the OP also was asking to post about other non-HD local clear QAM channels which is why I posted. In my case only 2 HD locals have PSIP information that gets them mapped to OTA channel #s, so my poll answer was still the one getting most votes: get locals in HD, they're labeled randomly like 88-2
I'm only trying to clarify expectations, not to push for one poll answer to be higher than the other.

I would expect if digital simulcast and digital music channels are included in the expectations for PSIP channel mapping 95+% of the systems would get the random answer.

The poll correctly uses "locals in HD" as the qualifier for choices. This maps most closely to the PSIP channel mapping we can expect with current FCC regulations. Introducing digital simulcast and digital music channels in the comments, as if we should currently expect PSIP channel mapping for them, will make the poll results more confusing because it introduces scenarios that are not encompassed in the poll choices. On the other hand, pointing out you also receive digital simulcast and digital music channels but PSIP channel mapping are not expected for these channels, so they don't affect your poll choice, would be less confusing.

For example, there is no choice to say "locals in HD" have PSIP channel mapping, but digital simulcast does not. So if someone expected digital simulcast channels to have PSIP channel mappings, they might choose "random" but really according to the poll choice qualifier they should be choosing 2-1 or 702.

On the other hand, if "locals in HD" was meant to encompass digital simulcast and/or digital music, then there are folks out there who are answering as if it meant HD locals like ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, PBS, CW.

[jrm01]

In Pittsburgh Comcast was providing PSIP and all locals mapped nicely to OTA equivalent. Two weeks ago they changed to a complete mis-mash of channel assignments, with channel numbers that include a 4-digit sub-channel (e.g. 75.2213). Numbers are all over the map.

One of my TVs found them just fine. The other will only display 3-digit sub-channels and can't display half of them. They also have added 40 music channels to the in-the-clear QAM. And I also get all of my neighbors' VOD programs displayed on 12 different channels (I've got a neighbor really into porn).

I have filed a complaint with my Local Franchise Authority and with the FCC (not about the porn, but about the lack of PSIP and the use of 4-digit sub-channels.).

[mattack]

I voted for random, but the situation in my area (Comcast--Oakland--SF Bay)is more complex. Over the air channels that have the same number on the cable system map fine (i.e. the HD for 2 is on 2.1, 5 on 5.1, etc.). Channels which are moved appear to have random assignments, as do cable only channels. For example, our NBC affiliate is OTA channel 11, which Comcast maps to channel 3; the HD version is at 116.1).

and in the South Bay, I get NBC on 33-1. *Most* of the other channels map to their OTA counterparts, except some of the KQED subchannels are way up in the 77-x or 79-x range IIRC.

[sfhub]

I voted for random, but the situation in my area (Comcast--Oakland--SF Bay)is more complex. Over the air channels that have the same number on the cable system map fine (i.e. the HD for 2 is on 2.1, 5 on 5.1, etc.). Channels which are moved appear to have random assignments, as do cable only channels. For example, our NBC affiliate is OTA channel 11, which Comcast maps to channel 3; the HD version is at 116.1).
You are misinterpreting the cause of your problem. The issue with NBC is not that the OTA and Cable channel #s for the analog channel 3 are different.

The issue is your system and/or head-end is not completely passing through the PSIP. This is likely due to some configuration issue because most likely all of Bay Area is getting the same KNTV-11 feed and other areas do have PSIP channel mapping that sets up KNTV-11 HD as 11.1.

The reason I know this is my area also had NBC at 116.1 and I noticed that north of me, they had 11.1. I complained and they eventually found the head-end was misconfigured. Now it is fixed NBC is at 11.1 through proper PSIP virtual channel mapping.

[sfhub]

and in the South Bay, I get NBC on 33-1. *Most* of the other channels map to their OTA counterparts, except some of the KQED subchannels are way up in the 77-x or 79-x range IIRC.
This is the list of HD (and SD) ATSC-based local channels the Bay Area has access to right now. If your area doesn't have the listed PSIP-mapped channel #s, it is likely a local head-end configuration issue, as other areas in the Bay Area have these #s and I don't believe there are multiple feeds coming in for a particular channel.

We used to have the PSIP for the KQED multicast SD channels but they were lost when we got the 24x7 KQED HD feed (while the HD feed retained the PSIP mapping)

So basically we have the HD channels of the majors FOX, CBS, ABC, NBC PSIP-mapped. We also have MY network, PBS, and IND KICU36 mapped. KBCW is a 2nd tier channel that would be nice to be mapped. The other channels that are missing mapping are the multicast SD channels that almost nobody will care about.

HD ATSC-based locals
KTVU-HD (FOX) PSIP=2.1 CBL=702
KRON-HD (MY ) PSIP=4.2 CBL=704
KICU-HD (CBS) PSIP=5.1 CBL=705
KGO-HD (ABC) PSIP=7.1 CBL=707
KQED-HD (PBS) PSIP=9.1 CBL=709
KNTV-HD (NBC) PSIP=11.1 CBL=703
KICU-HD (IND) PSIP=36.1 CBL=706
KBCW-HD (CW ) PSIP=xx CBL=712

SD ATSC-based locals
KGO-SD (ABC) PSIP=7.2 CBL=194
KGO-W (ABC) PSIP=7.3 CBL=195
KQED-E (PBS) PSIP=9.2 CBL=189
KQED-W (PBS) PSIP=xx CBL=190
KQED-L (PBS) PSIP=xx CBL=191
KQED-K (PBS) PSIP=xx CBL=192
KNTV-W (NBC) PSIP=xx CBL=186
KFTY-SD (IND) PSIP=xx CBL=199
KBWB-SD (IND) PSIP=xx CBL=196

[MickeS]

So who are the 6% or so here that say they have no HD locals in the clear? Do they live in places without local HD OTA stations too? Or are they getting SD locals (digital) instead?

I just find it hard to believe there are places where they don't do digital simulcast.

[sfhub]

Digital simulcast, where the cable company takes the analog feed and mpg encodes themselves to provide a mirrored digital service of the analog spectrum wouldn't be considered "HD" locals so this poll wouldn't cover them.

I imagine the folks saying they don't get HD locals either have it obfuscated in some way, have HD locals encrypted, or is the result of operator error in locating the channels.

[cwoody222]

I used to not get any in-the-clear. It was some problem with my signal coming into my house as others in the area got it. I tried multiple tuners (I actually returned a TV - twice! - thinking it was malfunctioning).

My landlords (and therefore me too) upgraded to digital cable and the cable installer had to come to the house and "do something" and then magically the in-the-clear stuff appeared.

If I had been the customer (I'm not, my landlords are) I would have had the company come out and fix it before.

I have no idea what the problem was but something was wrong.

[AbMagFab]

What about an option for "I don't care - I get OTA or I love my CC's"?

[bhaas]

....So who are the 6% or so here that say they have no HD locals in the clear? Do they live in places without local HD OTA stations too? Or are they getting SD locals (digital) instead?

I just find it hard to believe there are places where they don't do digital simulcast.....

---> Anyone using FiOS cannot watch any digital channels without CC.

[SugarBowl]

I get a mix.. Some channels show up as their OTA assignments, some channels have a random number assignment. And stuff gets shuffled around every few months.

It's not near as reliable as my OTA signals.

[Jazhuis]

My landlords (and therefore me too) upgraded to digital cable and the cable installer had to come to the house and "do something" and then magically the in-the-clear stuff appeared.I'm willing to bet that either there was a signal strength issue on the line as a whole, or your clear QAM channels are clustered into a lower frequency range, with a set of notch filters on the line blocking those channels. That's my guess at least.
There is very little chance (but not impossible) for digital music channels to have PSIP channel mapping.Aw, man. Are we actually considering those as channels for this exercise? Fine, I'll revise:

* Clear QAM for local channels, HD & SD, no PSIP on any of them; some other digital channels; about 50 music channels.

[pkscout]

I've never bothered to figure out what I get in the clear, as I get all my HD OTA.

[azitnay]

Comcast of DC gives us not only all the DC locals via QAM, but also all the Baltimore locals... Channels we don't even officially get on any lineup. Kinda nice when one of the Baltimore stations is playing a different NFL game than its DC counterpart.

Drew

[markens]

I live in a small market and have cable via a small cable provider. I've walked the two blocks from home numerous times to chat with the chief engineer of the cable company.

The cable is analog only, with QAM remodulation of local ATSC OTA signals added onto the cable. Included are ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, and CW. The cable company does not provide or support cable boxes, nor are they required to provide or support cable cards because of the size of the operation. They do rebroadcast the proper PSIP on all QAM signals. My TV and S3 both find all the channels just fine.

I get reasonable OTA reception of 4 of the 5 signals. I cannot receive the 5th signal reliably OTA because of terrain obstructions.

So...

I am firmly in the camp of needing some way to map OTA program guide info to the QAM channels using the same (PSIP) channel id. I am quite annoyed that the program guide data is there on my box with no way for me to use it!!

I have discussed the problem with the cable guy, and he agreed to contact Tribune Media and add the QAM (PSIP) channel info to the lineup (as TiVo customer support advised me to do). The unanswered question is whether the S3 will actually use this info even if it is in the lineup; I've seen conflicting opinions about this in the forums, and have not had the energy to contact TiVo about it.

PLEASE, TiVo, give me a way to use the guide info I pay for!

[sfhub]

We have confirmation that if the PSIP matches the cable-style single number channel #s and you get tribune to add the channels to the guide, TiVo will use it.

We suspect that if the PSIP uses ATSC-style channel #s like 2.1, 5.1, etc. then it may not work because 2.1 forces TiVo to use OTA antenna instead of cable antenna. However we don't have confirmation of this since no one has been able to add ATSC-style channel info to a cable guide from Tribune.

[markens]

We have confirmation that if the PSIP matches the cable-style single number channel #s and you get tribune to add the channels to the guide, TiVo will use it.
Does it have to be the PSIP? What if the underlying QAM (RF) channel number is added to the guide? For example, my local OTA channel 5.1 is available on my cable as (PSIP) channel 5.1, and is delivered via QAM on RF cable channel 105. If the program guide lists it on channel 105, will the TiVo recognize it?

Or does it have to be encoded in PSIP that way? (No cable cards, or course.)

However we don't have confirmation of this since no one has been able to add ATSC-style channel info to a cable guide from Tribune
Because Tribune rejects it or because no cable company has tried it?

[sfhub]

Does it have to be the PSIP? What if the underlying QAM (RF) channel number is added to the guide? For example, my local OTA channel 5.1 is available on my cable as (PSIP) channel 5.1, and is delivered via QAM on RF cable channel 105. If the program guide lists it on channel 105, will the TiVo recognize it?
...
Because Tribune rejects it or because no cable company has tried it?
The problem with the underlying RF is it can change over time and can be different for each head-end, whereas the PSIP mapped channel # is supposed to be fixed. Tribune has no current way of knowing which RF channel # your head-end has mapped the channel to. If you want it to work with the underlying RF, TiVo is going to need to add manual mapping functionality.

Regarding the 2nd question, I think it is better to say nobody has reported trying to have tribune add it and we have never seen a tribune guide that mixes cable and ATSC-style channel numbering. Whether someone was successful and didn't report it or whether tribune can provide a cable guide that has both style numbering, we do not know.

[Doit2it]

Comcast Nashville, TN recently moved most of their HD rebroadcast on QAM.
Copied really, as they are on both channels currently.

SD local air----Old QAM----New QAM----Call letter
2-----------------92.2--------1.2------------ABC
4-----------------93.1--------1.4------------NBC
5-----------------92.1--------1.5------------CBS
8----------------115.1--------1.8------------PBS
14---------------85.2---------85.2----------My30
17---------------93.2---------1.1------------Fox
18---------------85.1--------85.1-----------CW
n/a--------------87.1--------87.1-----------MOJOHD

[sfhub]

Except for FOX, it almost looks like they have the PSIP processor configured to reverse the ordering of major/minor. Instead of 2.1 they send out 1.2.

[sbourgeo]

Mine (Comcast):

84-1 PBS
84-2 CW
86-1 ABC
86-2 NBC
87-1 FOX
87-2 CBS

I just got my TiVo HD and was pleasantly surprised to find that Comcast is passing PSIP for the above channels. All of them map to their OTA equivalent channel with the exception of CBS, which is mapped to channel 0-0 (bad PSIP info, I guess). The weird thing is that I didn't see the PSIP info with my old LG tuner.

Of course the guide data is missing, but basic QAM mapping functionality from TiVo would make this perfect... :(

[Graymalkin]

Comcast of Union (New Jersey) maps my SD locals in the 104-x range and their HD counterparts in the 110-x range. They're not mapped in the same order, either.

I get Universal HD (77-1) and Discovery HD Theater (103-1) in clear QAM, but none of the other non-network HD channels.

[sfhub]

I don't think those are mapped. They look like the actual RF channel #s.