Is TiVo still manufacturing the Series3?

[bdraw]

I know we haven't heard anything official, but based on Megazone's TiVo HD review, it seems that Tivo is going to consolidate their hardware to a single platform with the TiVo HD. Obviously there are plenty of Series3 TiVo available for sale, but I wonder when they will stop manufacturing them.

So, if you just got a new Series3 check on the back near the plug and report your manufacture date here. It's been about 6 weeks since the TiVo HD was announced (7/24/07) so any Series3 manufactured after that would lead me to believe the Series3 isn't going away anytime soon.

[HiDefGator]

If sales of the S3 were terrible before the TivoHD was rolled out, imagine how terrible they must be now that you can buy a similar Tivo for hundreds less. There is no way a company that can barely break even should keep making and marketing the S3.

[riddick21]

Why cant they just drop the price? The extra features cant equal more than $100 (OLED, Case, Remote)

[cr33p]

Im betting even if they did in fact stop manufacturing of the S3, that there is still plenty of stock laying around everywhere. It would be preety hard to pin down a date. Imagine how long that S3 will sit on the shelf all lonely and his new cheaper brother sits next to him at a fraction of the cost. There wont even be a need to restock the shelf at the store for the S3, they will be too busy trying to keep the TiVo HD in stock. Then again we do have xmas coming around the corner and there are sure to be some deals.

[bkdtv]

Why cant they just drop the price? The extra features cant equal more than $100 (OLED, Case, Remote)The TivoHD isn't just a Tivo Series3 minus the OLED, case, and remote.

The TivoHD is a completely new design based on newer, more integrated components to cut costs. The incremental cost of the OLED, case, and remote do not compare to the cost savings of the internal redesign.

The question should be...will Tivo discontinue the Series3 after existing inventory runs out, or will it produce a new version of the Series3 based on the TivoHD internals?

[rodalpho]

I very much doubt they will. They'll likely release TivoHDs with larger internal drives, but that's about it. Which is a pity, because I really like the OLED screen on my S3.

And yeah... I'd be amazed if they were still manufacturing S3s today.

[miller890]

Is there any difference in performance between the Series3 and the TivoHD?

[aaronwt]

The TiVoHD isn't as optimized as the Series 3 is. But the Series 3 has been out almost a year so the TiVoHD should eventuallu have the bugs worked out and performance tweaked.
I prefer my Series 3 boxes though. Other than the TiVoHD price the biggest advantage for me with the TiVOHD was the location of the cable cards. It made things so much easer with my FIOS install by having the cards located on the front of the box.
But I like the Series much better overall.

[bdraw]

Don't forget about the THX certification. ;)

Seriously, I'd bet they'd offer a TiVo HD plus with a larger drive, OLED display, glow remote and compatibility with 3rd party accessories. They could still make it cheaper than the S3 is now.

By the looks of this thread, I'm starting to wonder if anyone's bought a S3 since the TiVo HD was released.

[rodalpho]

You'd have to be crazy to buy a S3 now.

[nhaigh]

You'd have to be crazy to buy a S3 now.


Why? The S3 looks so much better than the TiVoHD. Some of us are prepared to spend extra on the aesthetics. I spent a huge amount extra to get the right Sony stand to go with my Sony TV simply because it looked better. A generic one would have functionally been the same and it would have cost a lot less (more of a difference than the THD to S3) but it just didn't look as good.

Personally I'm seriously considering another S3 rather than the THD this November when MRV comes out.

[MichaelK]

I'm thinking the $200 rebate is to get rid of the S3's- or at least make them viable for the future.

online places have them for $599 now so after rebate that's $399. The premium for the front panel and glow remote dont seem so insane at all at that price point.

[rmassey]

My S3 (Amazon price - Fathers Day MIR) cost me a little over $100 more than my THD.

Seems to me it's worth +$100 for
- additional 90gb
- THX Cert
- Glo Remote
- nicer case
- OLED
- extra set of RCA outs

I think if they want to continue to sell the S3, they either lower the price or keep offering rebates.

[flyfishingdad]

Just what is the big deal with the THX certification, what does that add practically speaking for most people?

[rodalpho]

True enough. It's worth an extra $100 to me too. With the rebate, it's not a bad deal at all. When the rebate expires, there probably won't be any more S3s available anyway.

THX certification adds nothing whatsoever.

[Jason C]

i have an hd. it's fine. i want to see if i can use my old hr250-10 as a mrv. i don't have directv anymore.

[jrm01]

Just what is the big deal with the THX certification, what does that add practically speaking for most people?
THX certification provides the user with the peace of mind that he won't have:
1) Audio dropouts
2)Pixlezation
3)Audio/video synch issues
4)Problems with cablecards
5)Problems functioning with new technology (SDV, ADS, etc.)
6)Other fairy tales

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[c3]

THX certification provides the user with the peace of mind that he won't have:
1) Audio dropouts
2)Pixlezation
3)Audio/video synch issues
4)Problems with cablecards
5)Problems functioning with new technology (SDV, ADS, etc.)
6)Other fairy tales

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

To solve these problems, the cable companies have to be THX certified.

[Dr_Diablo]

Manufacture date: 02,10, 06
Purchase date: 01,09, 07

Guess makes me "crazy" to triple storage with the external drive

Next gen Tivo, won't see store shelves til 2010 at least... Prolly will have an HD burner

Waitin patiently, for TTG in 60 days, if not sooner...

[BlackBetty]

I would be shocked if the S3's are still in production. Does anyone have any numbers on S3 units sold? Or any numbers on how the TiVoHD is selling?

[EVizzle]

I bought the S3 about 2 weeks ago because of the faster response time of the remote, and the OLED, and no fear of the cable card pixelation issues. If I had a second HDTV, I would buy another S3. And the HDD space is an added bonus, I really don't want to buy another HDD and have some useless thing lying around and collecting more dust.

I am glad TivoHD exists, because it is a great fit for the masses, but I would continue to buy S3s given a choice.

[F4Boy]

I just picked up an S3 two weeks ago making the move from D* to FIOS. Got it for $540 and although I tried to like the Tivo HD for $260 or so, the absolute dealbreaker is only 18 hours of HD recording time. Unacceptable! The S3 gives me 32 hours which is at least in the ballpark of where I need to be. I know eSatas, and internal hdd's, but out of the box, the S3 suits my needs now. I had two D* Tivos with 35 hours each at two different locations. When this rebate becomes available, I'll get another S3 and swap out the Motorola disaster (13 hours) I have with V*.

Also, the THD is UGLY! Didn't want that in the family room. AND, the display on the S3 is cool! I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't mind spending a few extra bucks on cool electronic equipment and gadgets that I really enjoy. Tivo's are way up in that list of cool stuff!!!!!!!

[richsadams]

<snip> THX certification adds nothing whatsoever.FWIW, here is a fairly good article about THX Certification (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_1/feature-article-thx-1-2006-part-1.html)and the reference levels THX certified equipment must meet.

Metrics Tested on THX Controllers:

Reference Output Voltage
Voltage Gain
Input Impedance
Gain Control Range
Gain Tracking of the Master Gain Control
Overload Source Voltage
D.C. Bias Current at the Input
Maximum Output Voltage of Low-Level Outputs
Output Source Impedance
Polarity
D.C. Offset at the Output
Frequency Response Deviation
Signal Time Delay
Noise Output Voltage
Input Level Indicator (Clipping Indicator)
Video Path Switching
Video Level
Sync Level
Bar Tilt
Pulse/Bar Ration
K-Factor (K-2T)
Frequency Response Amplitude (0.5 to 4.2 MHz)
Group delay (0.5 to 4.2 MHz)
Chroma Gain
Chroma Delay
Differential Gain
Differential Phase
Noise
Video Conversion
Harmonic Distortion and Noise
Difference-Frequency Distortion
Dynamic Range
Digital Data Sampling Rate Support
Input Mode Control and User Interface Design
Input Mode Switching
Automatic Detection of Data Types
Output Modes and Post Processing
Equalization and Tone Controls
Signal Headroom
Bass Management
Filter Characteristics
LFE Channel Level Scaling
Loudspeaker Position Time Synchronization
Auto Calibration
Auto Setup
Output Levels
Dialogue Normalization Of course everyone has to make up their own mind if it's worth it or not, particularly if you aren't using THX certified sound amplification and loudspeakers.

[vman41]

FWIW, here is a fairly good article about THX Certification (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_1/feature-article-thx-1-2006-part-1.html)and the reference levels THX certified equipment must meet.


The S3 is not a THX Controller, the specs are probably more like that for DVD players, listed on page V:

Metrics Tested on THX DVD Players:

Video Level
Sync Level
Bar Tilt
2T K Factor
Pulse/Bar Ratio
Sin x/x Response
Sin x/x Group Delay
Chroma Level
Composite and Y/C Chroma Delay
Chroma Differential Gain
Chroma Differential Phase
Burst Amplitude Differential
Flesh Tone Phase Error
Luminance Linearity
AM Chroma Noise
PM Chroma Noise
Chroma Correlated Noise (IM)
Chroma Burst Frequency Leakage in Y
Chroma Burst Frequency
H Sync Timing


Note that the sidebar is next to this paragraph:

Some Things We're Not Crazy About

In 1998, THX launched certification for DVD Players, and we were a little disappointed to say the least. While on paper their goals for DVD Player design are first rate (see metrics list at right), they quickly brought their testing and certification integrity to question with the very first Certified DVD Players such as the Pionner DV-09. More recent offerings from the likes of Denon fair much better, but we would be remiss if we were to not mention this "sour" launch and there are still models which fall well short of our own Benchmark.

[SullyND]

Of course everyone has to make up their own mind if it's worth it or not, particularly if you aren't using THX certified sound amplification and loudspeakers.

Of course you also are assuming that the THD would not also be certified if TiVo elected to do so. Did the hardware really change to the point that there is really a difference?

[richsadams]

The S3 is not a THX Controller, the specs are probably more like that for DVD players, listed on page V:


Note that the sidebar is next to this paragraph: :up:

[richsadams]

Of course you also are assuming that the THD would not also be certified if TiVo elected to do so. Did the hardware really change to the point that there is really a difference?No assumptions made. I've no idea if the THD would pass or fail THX certification...just pointing out the fact that THX isn't just a freebie little logo on a box. ;)

[drew00001]

I think if they want to continue to sell the S3, they either lower the price or keep offering rebates.

If it came with a 750GB or 1TB (or even 500GB) drive, more people could justify paying $$$$.

[rodalpho]

No assumptions made. I've no idea if the THD would pass or fail THX certification...just pointing out the fact that THX isn't just a freebie little logo on a box. ;)
It's certainly not a freebie, THX certification was one of the main reasons from TiVo why the S3 was so expensive. Supposedly the HD was built to the same standards but not submitted for certification for that very reason.

[litkaj]

THX certification provides the user with the peace of mind that he won't have:
1) Audio dropouts
2)Pixlezation
3)Audio/video synch issues
4)Problems with cablecards
5)Problems functioning with new technology (SDV, ADS, etc.)
6)Other fairy tales

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I haven't had any of those problems:
1) Signal strength is between 97-100 on ALL channels.
2) See #1
3) I would think that would be a problem with your provider or stereo system, not the TiVo, but in any case I don't have that one either.
4) Verizon delivered 2 CableCARDs, both of which were working in short order. They don't pair the cards either so I was able to swap them to a second S3 w/o issue.
5) Verizon has WAY more bandwidth that other operators so SDV doesn't concern me.
6) Which ones? I always found Jack and the Beanstalk to be a bit far-fetched but I don't see what that has to do with the TiVo...

[rodalpho]

You never had signal dropouts or pixelization? Congrats, you're a unique snowflake.

[bilbo]

I'm thinking the $200 rebate is to get rid of the S3's- or at least make them viable for the future.

online places have them for $599 now so after rebate that's $399. The premium for the front panel and glow remote dont seem so insane at all at that price point.

rebate starts 09/16/07 thru late january 2008

circuit city
$600
minus 10% with my AAA coupon
= $540
minus $200 rebate
=$340

compares to tivohd
$300
minus 10% with AAA coupon (code)
=$270

difference in price is $70
(sales tax could add about $15 to the difference)

even with sales tax it is less than $100 for me, which is well worth it to me because it gets me:

the glo remote
an extra 90gb of hard drive (the difference between 20 hours of HD and 30 hours of HD)
the front controls -- which i might actually use in the room i will put my second s3

i may also get another 5% back through shop discover (so 5% of the $270 difference in price is $13.50), which would reduce the difference to under $60 without sales taxes

[richsadams]

It's certainly not a freebie, THX certification was one of the main reasons from TiVo why the S3 was so expensive. Supposedly the HD was built to the same standards but not submitted for certification for that very reason.I don't recall reading about anyone from TiVo claiming that THX certification was one of the main reasons why the S3 was so expensive; only that in an effort at cost reduction they decided not to submit the TiVo HD for certification. From TiVo's Jim Denney interview (http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/07/24/qanda-with-tivos-jim-denney-about-tivo-hd/):

Regarding not having THX, Jim let us know that it still meets TiVo's requirements for AV fidelity, but that part of keeping costs down meant not submitting it for the THX certification approval process. No argument that THX certification has an impact on R&D and eventually to some extent the retail price of a product. It's generally a feature only hardcore power users really care about which is not the target demo of the THD. However the original TiVo Series 3 is the world’s first and only digital video recorder that's certified to maintain the audio and video fidelity of the original broadcast.

So we can agree to disagree if that’s what we’re doing, but IMO THX certification does in fact have merit when it comes to A/V equipment as opposed to the blanket statement that "THX certification adds nothing whatsoever".

Now…back to our program which is already in progress. ;)

[rodalpho]

It just means that the hardware meets their standards. It's not like supporting dolby digital sound, it's not actually a feature. That's what I was getting at.

[richsadams]

It just means that the hardware meets their standards. It's not like supporting dolby digital sound, it's not actually a feature. That's what I was getting at.Okay. :up:

[megazone]

Personally, I think TiVo has stopped building Series3s and 180-hour S2DTs - and perhaps S2DTs completely.

[aaronwt]

With the holiday season coming they need to have a good supply then to last them through the first of the year.

[nhaigh]

Personally, I think TiVo has stopped building Series3s and 180-hour S2DTs - and perhaps S2DTs completely.


I don't much care about the S2DT but I'm hoping they keep the S3 as a premium model. I for one much prefer it to the TiVoHD as my AV stands don't have doors.

[debtoine]

According to the TiVo staff at CEDIA this year, the TiVo Series 3 will also be the only one with full Crestron integration; this would seem they are marketing the Series 3 more as an "integrator's" box.

I myself gladly pay more money for the kind of control they were talking about at the show.

Toine

[c3]

the TiVo Series 3 will also be the only one with full Crestron integration;

Huh? How is Crestron related to the TiVo?

[ah30k]

I'm guessing that TiVo works with a contract manufacturer that time shares their production lines. They will probably switch production to and from various active models as needed. So, the answer to 'have they stopped' would be more like 'have they stopped forever or just temporarily switched it out'.

[acvthree]

According to the TiVo staff at CEDIA this year, the TiVo Series 3 will also be the only one with full Crestron integration; this would seem they are marketing the Series 3 more as an "integrator's" box.

Toine

Could someone elaborate on (or translate) this? It sounds like it could be interesting if I had a clue as to what it means.

Al

[classicsat]

More importantly, what makes the Series 3 special that it can be integrated in an HT system, while a TiVo HD cannot?The all have basically the same sort of connections that would allow that, right?

[MichaelK]

Just what is the big deal with the THX certification, what does that add practically speaking for most people?


you get to make that funky noise at restart that sounds akin to a modern "hyperspace" sound effect from asteroids....

:D

[nhaigh]

More importantly, what makes the Series 3 special that it can be integrated in an HT system, while a TiVo HD cannot?The all have basically the same sort of connections that would allow that, right?

It's not so ugly you don't want to look at it :)

[demon]

More importantly, what makes the Series 3 special that it can be integrated in an HT system, while a TiVo HD cannot?The all have basically the same sort of connections that would allow that, right?
Nothing prevents it, no; it has the same optical audio out and HDMI connections as the Series3 does. THX is just a certification - not having it doesn't mean you can't do the same things, just it's not "THX certified". My TV, receiver, DVD player, etc. aren't; I really don't care one way or the other, it's quite good enough for my wants. :)

[MichaelK]

Of course you also are assuming that the THD would not also be certified if TiVo elected to do so. Did the hardware really change to the point that there is really a difference?


I assume tivo could easily get certified- IF they where willing to pay the fees required for a mass market device. I dont think they want to pay even an extra 10 cents a box for anything on the THD at this point.

JMHO

[MichaelK]

Could someone elaborate on (or translate) this? It sounds like it could be interesting if I had a clue as to what it means.

Al

me too!

does that mean tivo will be putting drivers on the S3 so home automation controllers can interact with it via USB or something?

[bdraw]

I couldn't find any press releases about the crestron TiVo deal, it's kinda funny that people at the show were talking about it, without anything official.

I hope it's just a usb serial dongle, that other integrators can access too, I for one love HA, but don't have the money for crestron. It sure would be nice not to have to rely on IR.

[megazone]

I'd love to find out more info on the Crestron/TiVo thing. I saw it reported in Gizmodo, and then it has popped up elsewhere - but no details at all anywhere. Crestron and TiVo both have nothing posted about it. And every mention I've been able to find of it online just says they did a deal to somehow link Crestron touch panels with the S3 - and that's all. Or they just link back to someone else, like Gizmodo, who didn't have any details either.

[bdraw]

If you don't about it, then I'm not sure I believe it's even true.
I know TiVo PR doesn't respond to my emails, but I thought it was just me.

[megazone]

I did email my contact at TiVo today about it since I finally got tired of wondering what it was - but she's out of the office today (according to the automated reply) so I may not hear back right away.

[dpfels]

I'm thinking the $200 rebate is to get rid of the S3's- or at least make them viable for the future.

online places have them for $599 now so after rebate that's $399. The premium for the front panel and glow remote dont seem so insane at all at that price point.

Sorry- What $200 rebate? I only see them for $500 and change
Dan

[dswallow]

Sorry- What $200 rebate? I only see them for $500 and change
Dan
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=365329

The $200 rebate on the Series3 doesn't start until this Sunday (9/16/2007).

[dpfels]

Sorry-I missed the earlier post.

I take it I can't get the Tivo web price ($514) with this?
I called Tivo to ask the limitations, but they were fairly clueless.
Thanks

[debtoine]

I'd love to find out more info on the Crestron/TiVo thing. I saw it reported in Gizmodo, and then it has popped up elsewhere - but no details at all anywhere. Crestron and TiVo both have nothing posted about it. And every mention I've been able to find of it online just says they did a deal to somehow link Crestron touch panels with the S3 - and that's all. Or they just link back to someone else, like Gizmodo, who didn't have any details either.

I can tell you that I saw the press release at the Tivo booth at CEDIA announcing their partnership with Crestron. The date on the press release was, I believe, in September, and Tivo's press release page doesn't have anything that recent posted on it yet.

It's been posted on this board before that Toine works for Crestron, so even if there is nothing available on line to see or read, it's most definitely happening.

deb

[morac]

My thoughts on the matter is that the S3 is no longer being produced. Similarly to how the S2 240 was no longer produced when the S2 540 came out.

[jcmitch]

The Tivo rep I spoke to indicated that the Crestron enabled control would be IP based, and that it would only be on the Series 3 box.

jcmitch

[debtoine]

This is all from the rep at CEDIA:

Yes, the Crestron control is IP based. The first phase is complete, but a firmware upgrade is necessary to use it.

What it allows you to do is control the TiVo over IP. Functions currently are limited to IR-like commands, as well as direct channel entry (go to Channel 132, rather than pressing 1, 3, and 2).

TiVo is working with Crestron on phase 2, which will have more powerful functions enabled, such as getting guide data about a program.

If you have a Crestron in your system, you should ask your dealer/CAIP about incorporating the IP based module.

Toine

[Bierboy]

You never had signal dropouts or pixelization? Congrats, you're a unique snowflake.Not necessarily....I've never had them either....and I'll bet you'd get a LOT of S3 users who have never posted here to say the same.

[bdraw]

If you have a Crestron in your system, you should ask your dealer/CAIP about incorporating the IP based module.


I don't use crestron, but I do use a HA system that works with IP based devices. I wonder how hard it would be to figure out the commands. Guess we'll have to wait and see once more people have used it.

[debtoine]

I don't use crestron, but I do use a HA system that works with IP based devices. I wonder how hard it would be to figure out the commands. Guess we'll have to wait and see once more people have used it.

What do you use instead of Crestron?

T

[MichaelK]

This is all from the rep at CEDIA:

Yes, the Crestron control is IP based. The first phase is complete, but a firmware upgrade is necessary to use it.

What it allows you to do is control the TiVo over IP. Functions currently are limited to IR-like commands, as well as direct channel entry (go to Channel 132, rather than pressing 1, 3, and 2).

TiVo is working with Crestron on phase 2, which will have more powerful functions enabled, such as getting guide data about a program.

If you have a Crestron in your system, you should ask your dealer/CAIP about incorporating the IP based module.

Toine


my quesiton would be can it work in reverse?

Can the tivo use HME type apps to send commands to the crestron?

[gschoen]

If all other things were equal, I'd pay $100 extra for the S3 for remote, bigger HD, and cool screen/pretty factor. BUT not everything is equal. S3 can't use an M-Card (yet?) so I'd have to pay an extra monthly fee. And the hardware is slightly different - I'd want to see how the units compare after the next major service update. I wouldn't want to pay more for a premium box that lacks functionality of a budget one. If none, I'd rather have the S3

[debtoine]

my quesiton would be can it work in reverse?

Can the tivo use HME type apps to send commands to the crestron?

I'm not too familiar with HME, but I think that would currently be possible, as long as HME apps can open a socket. The Crestron can listen for connections. From there, it's easy :)

T

[bdraw]

I use Mainlobby from http://cinemaronline.com it is a DIY system that runs on normal windows computer.

Creating a HME application to control a HA system should be possible, but of course someone would have to develop it.

[jhimmel]

Creating a HME application to control a HA system should be possible, but of course someone would have to develop it.

I don't know if it uses HME (I think it does), but I use the HomeSeer plugin described here -

http://board.homeseer.com/forumdisplay.php?f=859

To controll all kinds of stuff through my TiVo's.

I understand it has nothing to do with Crestron, but it puts to rest any question as to whether or not creating a HME application to control a HA system should be possible. It's already been done.

[dswallow]

I'm not too familiar with HME, but I think that would currently be possible, as long as HME apps can open a socket. The Crestron can listen for connections. From there, it's easy :)
HME apps don't run on the TiVo; the TiVo is simply a presentation device, receiving commands from the HME app that control display properties and sending keypress info. HME apps run on a computer somewhere else, either in the home, or remotely. Anything you can run on a computer can thusly be controlled by an HME app.

[rbienstock]

If you have a Crestron in your system, you should ask your dealer/CAIP about incorporating the IP based module.

I must have this as my Crestron system controls other IP based devices. What do I need to do to control my Series 3?

[debtoine]

I must have this as my Crestron system controls other IP based devices. What do I need to do to control my Series 3?

Wait for the firmware update from TiVo, then talk to your dealer/programmer; they will be able to change from using IR to IP.

Toine

[jhankins]

Personally, I think TiVo has stopped building Series3s and 180-hour S2DTs - and perhaps S2DTs completely.

Until they get MRV going, at least with SD content, they'd be crazy to stop building S2s. That's why I don't have an S3 or THD yet. My cheap, obsolete S2s have more functionality.

[jhankins]

Not necessarily....I've never had them either....and I'll bet you'd get a LOT of S3 users who have never posted here to say the same.

Yeah, you're unique, just like everyone else. :)

[jhankins]

If all other things were equal, I'd pay $100 extra for the S3 for remote, bigger HD, and cool screen/pretty factor. BUT not everything is equal. S3 can't use an M-Card (yet?) so I'd have to pay an extra monthly fee. And the hardware is slightly different - I'd want to see how the units compare after the next major service update. I wouldn't want to pay more for a premium box that lacks functionality of a budget one. If none, I'd rather have the S3

It seems to be implied, but just to be clear, do M-Cards definitely not work with the S3? Is M-Card functionality a software or hardware thing? Do the S3 and THD run different OSs?

Has anyone actually tried plugging an M-Card into an S3?

Jamie

[SullyND]

It seems to be implied, but just to be clear, do M-Cards definitely not work with the S3? Is M-Card functionality a software or hardware thing? Do the S3 and THD run different OSs?

The S3 has the hardware for the M-Card support, but not the software. Yes, the THD and S3 are currently running seperate software versions (The THD is technically an "older" OS than the S3 is running, but the THD has some additional updates which the S3 does not currently have, such as M-Card support)

I wonder if the filesystem on the S3 will eventually be upgraded to the same as the THD.

[demon]

The S3 has the hardware for the M-Card support, but not the software. Yes, the THD and S3 are currently running seperate software versions (The THD is technically an "older" OS than the S3 is running, but the THD has some additional updates which the S3 does not currently have, such as M-Card support)

It sounded to me like the CableCARD interface chip they used could (according to the maker) be coaxed to use M-Cards, but the maker wasn't being forthcoming with all the info to make it happen - one of the reasons they used a different chip in the TiVoHD. It's a shame, I'd love to only have to use one CableCARD; I think the cards I got might even be M-Cards (not sure, didn't see them long enough).

I wonder if the filesystem on the S3 will eventually be upgraded to the same as the THD.

I wasn't clear on if the capacity limit was due to the SATA controller chip, or just the MFS code running as part of the OS. I'm sure more than a few S3 owners would be happy to see the 1 TB per filesystem limit go away.

[morac]

Until they get MRV going, at least with SD content, they'd be crazy to stop building S2s. That's why I don't have an S3 or THD yet. My cheap, obsolete S2s have more functionality.

At some point in the near future the S2DT will be obsolete since one of it's tuner assumes that analog cable is available to the user. While the FCC is forcing cable companies (http://www.tvweek.com/news/2007/09/fcc_ruling_keeps_local_broadca.php) to make available local broadcast stations in analog format until the year 2012, there is nothing preventing the cable companies from going all digital as long as the cable company provides a cable box to analog only customers. Since the DT can't handle two boxes, it effectively becomes a single tuner TiVo. I would think TiVo would stop selling the DT long before that happens.

Currently the S3 and HD are the only TiVos that are allowed to be sold for OTA broadcasts since the S2 models don't have an ATSC tuner, so once cable goes all digital, the S2DT is effectively a dead device. TiVo may keep the old S2 single tuners around, but at some point there's no point in supporting those either.

Besides MRV is coming to the S3/HD in November so even if they stopped building S2's today there would still be enough supply to last till November.

[Adam1115]

At some point in the near future the S2DT will be obsolete since one of it's tuner assumes that analog cable is available to the user. While the FCC is forcing cable companies (http://www.tvweek.com/news/2007/09/fcc_ruling_keeps_local_broadca.php) to make available local broadcast stations in analog format until the year 2012, there is nothing preventing the cable companies from going all digital as long as the cable company provides a cable box to analog only customers. Since the DT can't handle two boxes, it effectively becomes a single tuner TiVo. I would think TiVo would stop selling the DT long before that happens.

Currently the S3 and HD are the only TiVos that are allowed to be sold for OTA broadcasts since the S2 models don't have an ATSC tuner, so once cable goes all digital, the S2DT is effectively a dead device. TiVo may keep the old S2 single tuners around, but at some point there's no point in supporting those either.

Besides MRV is coming to the S3/HD in November so even if they stopped building S2's today there would still be enough supply to last till November.

Most cable companies have committed to at least keeping local channels on analog.

A know a few cable companies might go 'all digital', but I bet the vast majority will just keep slowly moving channels to their digital tier.

Since the DT is still a dual tuner as long as one channel is on the STB and one is analog, it will still be useful for a LONG time.

But I tend to agree, I would recommend someone looking to get a tivo to just buy a HD, even if they don't have HD right now..

[megazone]

Yes, the Crestron control is IP based. The first phase is complete, but a firmware upgrade is necessary to use it.Do you know if this is coming to all of their currently support models - basically the Series2, Series2DT, Series3, and TiVo HD, or is it limited to just specific models like the Series3?

[debtoine]

Do you know if this is coming to all of their currently support models - basically the Series2, Series2DT, Series3, and TiVo HD, or is it limited to just specific models like the Series3?

As per the people at CEDIA, it was limited to the S3

T

[jhankins]

What happens when you install a THD on an SD TV? Will it display the HD channels downscaled to 480i or will it just show SD channels?

Currently, I have two Tivos; one bedroom Tivo and one kitchen Tivo. The bedroom TV is HD and the kitchen is SD. MRV is necessary. Both of my Tivo accounts are a few years old, so they're the old price instead of the new rates. I'm considering getting the THD or an S3 for the bedroom, but I don't want to lose MRV. That would mean keeping the current Tivo in the bedroom for MRV and just having two. I don't want to sign up for three years on the new box, but I can't decommission one of my old ones and use its account until MRV works.

Okay, it's late and I'm tired, and the Oxycodone is kicking in (legally acquired). Hopefully, someone will understand my ramblings.

Jamie

[jfh3]

What happens when you install a THD on an SD TV? Will it display the HD channels downscaled ?


Yes.


Currently, I have two Tivos; one bedroom Tivo and one kitchen Tivo. The bedroom TV is HD and the kitchen is SD. MRV is necessary. Both of my Tivo accounts are a few years old, so they're the old price instead of the new rates. I'm considering getting the THD or an S3 for the bedroom, but I don't want to lose MRV. That would mean keeping the current Tivo in the bedroom for MRV and just having two. I don't want to sign up for three years on the new box, but I can't decommission one of my old ones and use its account until MRV works.


It sounds like you understand how service accounts work, but just to be sure:

If you have anything but lifetime service, it is tied to your account, not a box,so if you sign up for a three year plan, you aren't committed to using service on the same box for the duration.

Both of the services plans you have are most likely month-to-month only. Ideally, you would get a THD/S3 box and simply transfer the service from the current BR box, but if you don't want to discontinue the existing BR box until MRV (supposedly November), you would have to add a new service contract for the new (now 3rd) box (best deal is 3 years @ $6.95/month) and then drop one of the month-to-month accounts.

If it were me, I'd live without MRV for a couple months and move one of the existing contracts to a new HD box.

[MichaelK]

I'm not too familiar with HME, but I think that would currently be possible, as long as HME apps can open a socket. The Crestron can listen for connections. From there, it's easy :)

T


to be honest- not really a techie- but for example there is a plug in for homeseer that allows tivo to trigger commands on homeseer. So it;s just a matter of making a plug-in?

[dswallow]

FYI, on the topic of the thread...

The Series3 I picked up yesterday locally was manufactured on October 24, 2006. The Series3 I bought back around the beginning of the year was manufactured on November 22, 2006.

[richsadams]

FYI, on the topic of the thread...

The Series3 I picked up yesterday locally was manufactured on October 24, 2006. The Series3 I bought back around the beginning of the year was manufactured on November 22, 2006.Interesting. :up: Where did you buy the most recent and first boxes?

[jhankins]

If it were me, I'd live without MRV for a couple months and move one of the existing contracts to a new HD box.

That's the temptation, and if I were darned sure that MRV was really going to happen soon, I'd probably go for it. There were rumors of the S3 for years before it really happened, though. How solid is the information of MRV happening in November?

Off topic, I have FiOS. Although customer service people aren't really as connected as you'd think, a Verizon one told me that they have tons of bandwidth and that I shouldn't worry about switched video anytime in the forseeable future. I don't suppose anyone else has any corroborating/dissenting info?

Thanks much,
Jamie

[classicsat]

This is all from the rep at CEDIA:

Yes, the Crestron control is IP based. The first phase is complete, but a firmware upgrade is necessary to use it.

What it allows you to do is control the TiVo over IP. Functions currently are limited to IR-like commands, as well as direct channel entry (go to Channel 132, rather than pressing 1, 3, and 2).


In that case, in theory, there is no technical reason any Series2 TiVo, or at least the TiVo HD, cannot have the "firmware" applied to those DVRs, unless they are marketing Crestron integration as a premium attachment for the Series 3s only.

[jfh3]

That's the temptation, and if I were darned sure that MRV was really going to happen soon, I'd probably go for it. There were rumors of the S3 for years before it really happened, though. How solid is the information of MRV happening in November?


Given that it came straight from Tivo marketing, I'd say pretty good. See this thread:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=365225


Off topic, I have FiOS. Although customer service people aren't really as connected as you'd think, a Verizon one told me that they have tons of bandwidth and that I shouldn't worry about switched video anytime in the forseeable future. I don't suppose anyone else has any corroborating/dissenting info?


From everything I've read/heard about FIOS, SDV will not be an issue anytime soon.[/QUOTE]

[dswallow]

Interesting. :up: Where did you buy the most recent and first boxes?
I bought my first Series3 from buy.com on 12/24/2006; that one was manufactured 11/22/2006.

I bought my second Series3 from Circuit City in Freehold, NJ on 9/16/2007; that one was manufactured on 10/24/2006.

[richsadams]

I bought my first Series3 from buy.com on 12/24/2006; that one was manufactured 11/22/2006.

I bought my second Series3 from Circuit City in Freehold, NJ on 9/16/2007; that one was manufactured on 10/24/2006.So your newest addition was actually built before the one you bought ten months ago?! Either CC had a lot of back stock or TiVo's sales really didn't meet their expectations! :eek:

[morac]

I bought my first Series3 from buy.com on 12/24/2006; that one was manufactured 11/22/2006.

I bought my second Series3 from Circuit City in Freehold, NJ on 9/16/2007; that one was manufactured on 10/24/2006.
That doesn't actually surprise me. I've seen the same S3 at Best Buy for a while now. They hide it way up in the air where no one can see or reach it. :)

On a side note, TiVo is offering refurbished S3's (https://www3.tivo.com/store/webspecials.do) on their web site now.

[debtoine]

In that case, in theory, there is no technical reason any Series2 TiVo, or at least the TiVo HD, cannot have the "firmware" applied to those DVRs, unless they are marketing Crestron integration as a premium attachment for the Series 3s only.

From the rep at CEDIA, the Crestron integration was one of the differences he pointed out between the Series 3 and the TiVoHD

T

[Solver]

Interesting tidbit here about Crestron Integration and version 9.1 software for Series 3:

http://customersupport.tivo.com/LaunchContent.aspx?cid=bd0cbfe4-1710-40e4-89b9-425e7c69dcb1&anchor=undefined

[jhankins]

This is all causing me heartburn. As much as I want to replace one of my series 2 machines (as well as the FiOS HD DVR) with an HD or series 3, the water is too muddy.

I know it's all been said before, but I'm just going to say it again to help make it more clear, at least for myself.
1. The HD has newer, more advanced hardware and twice the available system RAM.
2. The S3 has this Creston integration, which may or may not ever matter to me.
3. The S3 is only $100 more (including the rebate).
4. The HD doesn't yet officially work with eSATA (if at all).
5. S3 machines (including newly purchased ones) all seem to have been made around the same time, suggesting the title of this thread may be correct.
6. With SD channels, my S2 machines have more functionality. There's no copy once, copy never, or any such flags. That sucks because I'd like to get rid of cable boxes and unreliable ER emittors and still keep MRV, at least for all of my SD content.
7. People who paid $800 for S3 machines have to be feeling screwed right now. I don't want to feel screwed if TiVO comes out with a new machine with more capabilities soon. I don't care about cheaper. The current price points, $280 and $400 (AR) are fine.

Summation:
The HD has more advanced, better hardware and is cheaper.
The S3 has more recent software and features that may not ever be ported to the HD.
It may be that the S3 was rushed to market, and may be deep-sixed as soon as inventory is cleared out.
It may be that the S3 will continue to be the top platform and get features that don't make it down to the HD.

Okay, that was a conflicted mess, but it reflects how I'm feeling about all of this.
Where are my Rolaids?

[dswallow]

Summation:
The HD has more advanced, better hardware and is cheaper.
The S3 has more recent software and features that may not ever be ported to the HD.
It may be that the S3 was rushed to market, and may be deep-sixed as soon as inventory is cleared out.
It may be that the S3 will continue to be the top platform and get features that don't make it down to the HD.

Okay, that was a conflicted mess, but it reflects how I'm feeling about all of this.
Where are my Rolaids?
I'm not sure I agree with the "advanced/better hardware" claim. It definitely has a different architecture, and while it appears at first glance to have a slightly speedier CPU and a more flexible memory arrangement, there also seems to be a slightly longer delay from hard disk to video display, which is especially notable when using trick play features like 30-second skip. While the Series3 is almost instantaneous, the TiVoHD has enough of a delay to become disconcerting.

Other features thought to have been in the TiVoHD chipset apparently are really not in the version made for TiVo (likely for economic reasons) such as MPEG transcoding. So in general, it's certainly a less expensive receiver to manufacture, but it doesn't really seem to offer any features that would differentiate it as a better product except that it is cheaper, and thus within the budget of more people.

I doubt we'll ever see any significant features available on the Series3 or TiVoHD but not on the other. There's certainly no good reason not to implement the Crestron support across all platforms, so that's gotta be just a marketing decision, or perhaps a decision based on payment from Crestron for such support.

[astrohip]

7. People who paid $800 for S3 machines have to be feeling screwed right now.
Not in the least. I've been using my S3 for almost a year. Even if TiVo had told me up front "You can pay $800 now, or $400 in a year", I would have bought it. One year of life with TiVo is worth waaay more than $400. :eek:

If it drops right after I buy something, I get kinda pissed. Unless they offer some kinda mollification (rebate, partial refund?). Otherwise, one should expect the price to drop over time.

[drew00001]

Even if TiVo had told me up front "You can pay $800 now, or $400 in a year", I would have bought it.

I totally expected a large price drop after a year and bought the S3 anyway. I have no regrets.

If you are considering an THD, you should realize that it will eventually be free. Your primary consideration now should be whether you can wait that long.

[Adam1115]

Not in the least. I've been using my S3 for almost a year. Even if TiVo had told me up front "You can pay $800 now, or $400 in a year", I would have bought it. One year of life with TiVo is worth waaay more than $400. :eek:

If it drops right after I buy something, I get kinda pissed. Unless they offer some kinda mollification (rebate, partial refund?). Otherwise, one should expect the price to drop over time.

Not exactly though. The profit margin seems to be MUCH less with the HD.

I bought my S3 from the TCF store for $679 including shipping VERY shortly after the release. (October? Maybe have been November.)

The HD is $279.99.

But your point remains, $400 difference.

Not just $400 for using it for a year, but bigger Hard Drive. I've been also using eSata for quite some time, glo remote.

Definitely worth $400.

[chrishicks]

I purchased 2 S3s both with Lifetime subs. I paid over 1000.00 for each of them. do I feel screwed? not in the slightest. :)

[d_anders]

I'm not sure I agree with the "advanced/better hardware" claim. It definitely has a different architecture, and while it appears at first glance to have a slightly speedier CPU and a more flexible memory arrangement, there also seems to be a slightly longer delay from hard disk to video display, which is especially notable when using trick play features like 30-second skip. While the Series3 is almost instantaneous, the TiVoHD has enough of a delay to become disconcerting.

Other features thought to have been in the TiVoHD chipset apparently are really not in the version made for TiVo (likely for economic reasons) such as MPEG transcoding. So in general, it's certainly a less expensive receiver to manufacture, but it doesn't really seem to offer any features that would differentiate it as a better product except that it is cheaper, and thus within the budget of more people.

I doubt we'll ever see any significant features available on the Series3 or TiVoHD but not on the other. There's certainly no good reason not to implement the Crestron support across all platforms, so that's gotta be just a marketing decision, or perhaps a decision based on payment from Crestron for such support.

Given that the S3 is on a software version 8.3.x that is known to have improved performance characteristics, it's probably not a good time to make make performance comparisons...Once both types of boxes are finally on the same software rev, then it will be appropriate...until then it can certainly be misleading.

[jfh3]

Not exactly though. The profit margin seems to be MUCH less with the HD.

Yes, with the THD it's negative, except when sold directly by Tivo. ;)

[dswallow]

Given that the S3 is on a software version 8.3.x that is known to have improved performance characteristics, it's probably not a good time to make make performance comparisons...Once both types of boxes are finally on the same software rev, then it will be appropriate...until then it can certainly be misleading.
The menu performance which was somewhat improved by 8.3 is quite different than the time it takes along the MPEG video decoder path. The menus are overlaid onto video, so menu performance is governed by different hardware.

[Adam1115]

This is all causing me heartburn. As much as I want to replace one of my series 2 machines (as well as the FiOS HD DVR) with an HD or series 3, the water is too muddy.

I know it's all been said before, but I'm just going to say it again to help make it more clear, at least for myself.
1. The HD has newer, more advanced hardware and twice the available system RAM.
2. The S3 has this Creston integration, which may or may not ever matter to me.
3. The S3 is only $100 more (including the rebate).
4. The HD doesn't yet officially work with eSATA (if at all).
5. S3 machines (including newly purchased ones) all seem to have been made around the same time, suggesting the title of this thread may be correct.
6. With SD channels, my S2 machines have more functionality. There's no copy once, copy never, or any such flags. That sucks because I'd like to get rid of cable boxes and unreliable ER emittors and still keep MRV, at least for all of my SD content.
7. People who paid $800 for S3 machines have to be feeling screwed right now. I don't want to feel screwed if TiVO comes out with a new machine with more capabilities soon. I don't care about cheaper. The current price points, $280 and $400 (AR) are fine.

Summation:
The HD has more advanced, better hardware and is cheaper.
The S3 has more recent software and features that may not ever be ported to the HD.
It may be that the S3 was rushed to market, and may be deep-sixed as soon as inventory is cleared out.
It may be that the S3 will continue to be the top platform and get features that don't make it down to the HD.

Okay, that was a conflicted mess, but it reflects how I'm feeling about all of this.
Where are my Rolaids?

So now to add to this confusion-

S3 has faster S3 --> S2 MRV
S3 supports unverified esata drive expansion

Still happy I bought the S3 over the HD!!