Oh TIVO masters, why were you so STUPID on the TivoHD????

[Rombaldi]

Would it have KILLED you to put an S-Video/Video and audio in and the IR Blaster in? Yes for those of us with sat receivers or other boxes. I have 4 Series 2's that are connected to Starchoice receivers that would have already had TivoHD's ordered. Fine for off air HD and could have managed my receivers at SD and that would have been fine.

I'll be willing to be a boatload of S2's would have been retired had you not been so shortsighted on this.

Why?

[SullyND]

Why?

I gues you haven't read any of the hundreds of posts which explain why huh?

[Rombaldi]

I gues you haven't read any of the hundreds of posts which explain why huh?

No I haven't, got some links? (and I've been off net for about 2 months :D )

[SullyND]

Here's one. (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=315955&highlight=stb)

There's a bunch more.

Cliff-notes?

The technology to record HD is not consumer level technology (it would make the TiVoHD be out of the reach of most)

[Rombaldi]

Here's one. (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=315955&highlight=stb)
The technology to record HD is not consumer level technology (it would make the TiVoHD be out of the reach of most)

Meaningless answer, I said for my >>>SD<<< receivers. Use the same Tivo to record for HD OTA and SD from the Sat Receivers

Next?


(edit: clarify what I was saying)

[dswallow]

From TiVo's perspective, they have a current technology product to manage external devices: the Series 2 DT.

I would expect there'll be an updated product at some point that essentially allows digital OTA and control over an external receiver for other SD sources not directly supportable.

To make things more seamless for people like you, though, getting multi-room video transfers going for the Series 3 and TiVo HD units would go a long way.

[Stephen Tu]

The answer is yes, it would have killed them. You are in a very tiny minority of customers that desire this feature. People with cable only don't need it. People with OTA only don't need it. People with satellite have generally migrated to integrated satellite receiver/DVR combo machines from their provider (or have older DirecTV/Tivo combos), for good reason (more efficient storage, no AV quality loss from original transmission, lower costs). People like you who wish to reencode SD analog output from a satellite receiver have become a minuscule fraction of the user base. Auxiliary input, IR blaster, + software support would have driven up the cost of the box for everyone else, it doesn't make sense to put it in for the maybe 1% of people who would use this and turn off the other 99% with a higher price who would never use it.

Why not just continue to use most of your S2s, you can pick up a TivoHD for solely OTA HD purposes if the price works for you.

[captain_video]

The SD Tivos are designed to do what you ask as far as recording from a sat receiver or external box. The Tivo HD is designed to record from digital sources only. The cost to add analog recording as well would defeat the purpose of the box - a low cost entry into HD recording. I don't know of any HD capable DVR that will record from an analog source. It just wouldn't make sense to build and market such a device. There'd be little or no demand for it, at least not enough to make it a viable or profitable product.

Next?

[bdlucas]

The Tivo HD is designed to record from digital sources only.
Sorry, not true. Tivo HD records analog cable and OTA just fine.

Next? :p

[atmuscarella]

I am in agreement with the OP. The TiVo HD was clearly designed so a version of it could be built to have AV inputs/control an STB. I think TiVo should have release the current TiVo HD but also should have release a version that included the AV inputs to replace the Series 2 DT at the same time - they could have even removed the cable cards and the unit would have had MRV and full TiVoToGo abilities. If they had I would have bought at least one to replace a Series 2 unit and I don't have an HD TV yet.

Thanks,

[SullyND]

I think TiVo should have release the current TiVo HD but also should have release a version that included the AV inputs to replace the Series 2 DT at the same time - they could have even removed the cable cards and the unit would have had MRV and full TiVoToGo abilities.

So is OTA the only HD you'd ever want to record? Do you know how much of a niche that is?

[captain_video]

Sorry, not true. Tivo HD records analog cable and OTA just fine.
I stand corrected. It is true that it will record the analog cable channels. I forgot about them because I never watch them or record from them.

So is OTA the only HD you'd ever want to record? Do you know how much of a niche that is?
Actually, there are more people in this category than you might think. Just look at all the folks with HTPCs using MythTV, BeyondTV or SageTV. You can only record OTA or in-the-clear QAM channels using a HTPC tuner. During the regular season I probably record about 90% or more of my programming from my local OTA HD network affiliates. Aside from a few shows on the Sci-Fi channel, TNT-HD, FX, USA, and HBO-HD, there isn't much on the cable channels I watch during that time period. Until DirecTV or the cable companies beef up their HD lineups, the local HD OTA channels provide the largest source of HD programming available to many people.

[atmuscarella]

So is OTA the only HD you'd ever want to record? Do you know how much of a niche that is? It depends on your viewing habits nothing I watch from satellite is available in HD at this time so yes I would be fine with that - plus I have no desire to pay for the HD tier with whats available at this time.

I have no idea how much of a niche that would be but there are 25 million satellite subscribers that it would at least give a better option than the current one which is needing a DT and a HD TiVo unit to do what a HD TiVo with video inputs could do.

Thanks,

[vstone]

Do not forget the issue of copy protection. Content brought in via S-video, even though SD, is of unknown origin. When I had my XP MCE running, it refused to record "Sunday Morning Shootout" from AMC. Tivo doesn't care if you want to record, say, SMS onto a DVD but it doesn;t want to be in the middle of that type of fight.

Besides, OP has 4 SD Tivo's. He could easily swap one out without throwing a hissy fit.

[atmuscarella]

Besides, OP has 4 SD Tivo's. He could easily swap one out without throwing a hissy fit.Swap one out for what? He said they are all controlling individual STBs.

Do not forget the issue of copy protection. Content brought in via S-video, even though SD, is of unknown origin. When I had my XP MCE running, it refused to record "Sunday Morning Shootout" from AMC. Tivo doesn't care if you want to record, say, SMS onto a DVD but it doesn;t want to be in the middle of that type of fight.A TiVo HD that could record through video inputs has no more copy protection issues than it does now. What adds copy protection issues to the Series 3 and TiVo HD over the Series 1 or 2 are cable cards and flags in the shows it records.

Thanks,

[ZeoTiVo]

I am in agreement with the OP. The TiVo HD was clearly designed so a version of it could be built to have AV inputs/control an STB. I think TiVo should have release the current TiVo HD but also should have release a version that included the AV inputs to replace the Series 2 DT at the same time - they could have even removed the cable cards and the unit would have had MRV and full TiVoToGo abilities. If they had I would have bought at least one to replace a Series 2 unit and I don't have an HD TV yet.

Thanks,
yes- in a word it is cost to make the box that drives what is happening here.
To add OTA to an SD would have to be digital tuner. You have to sort out the code to have digital recordings on it. Plus you can not view HD from a Series 2 so how crazy would that be. ETA - crazy in the sense of adding digital OTA to an S2 but then you can not make use of it to watch OTA HD in HD

To add the analog inputs and IR controllers to the TiVo HD of today would add to the cost of the box, and cost of the box for TiVo HD was very significant design constraint. Could have been done on the S3 but who would spend that kind of money for an SD sat box and OTA. Cheaper to get an S2 and a TiVo HD than an S3 ;).

I suspect the box that atmuscarella describes will be the future direction of the S2 when analog becomes less prevelant. Also to be a really good box it would want to have the ability to record HD from a component input. That tech exists but is very costly now. of ocurse that cost will be falling and when it makes business sense Tivo seems poised to put out a box that can record HD from sat, from OTA and also cable box for those not wanting to go the cable card route. It would also be a hedge against SDV and 2 way cable card not making it to public use.

[vstone]

Swap one out for what? He said they are all controlling individual STBs. You got me on that one. I forgot he was a satellite user.
A TiVo HD that could record through video inputs has no more copy protection issues than it does now. If a Tivo can be restricted from recording (or saving for more than two hours, as several, including myself, have seen), it has control over copy protection. The fact that it rarely does, does NOT mean it won't do so more often in the future. If it records from Svideo, it loses that control. I can make a great SD DVD from the Svideo output of an HD receiver. Presumably I coculd run HD based SVideo content into a Tivo, then run it to Tivo Desktop, then make a DVD. Perhaps Tivo doesn't want to be part of this production line. The fact that S1 & S2 can do it doesn't mean that Tivo wants to continue supporting this particular feature. [/QUOTE]
What adds copy protection issues to the Series 3 and TiVo HD over the Series 1 or 2 are cable cards and flags in the shows it records.Yet another argument against a cablecard-less Tivo being able to record digital cable! This one had not occurred to me yet.

[vstone]

yes- in a word it is cost to make the box that drives what is happening here.
To add OTA to an SD would have to be digital tuner. You have to sort out the code to have digital recordings on it. Plus you can not view HD from a Series 2 so how crazy would that be.
...Not so crazy. While Tivo HD's can considered HD Tivos, they can also be considered digital Tivos. There are SD digital tube TV sets right now. They downrez HD channel to SD. I'm not sure there's a good business case, but when analog cable goes away I could buy a new TV set for the kitchen, or I could just hook it up to a Tivo HD.
I suspect the box that atmuscarella describes will be the future direction of the S2 when analog becomes less prevelant. Also to be a really good box it would want to have the ability to record HD from a component input. That tech exists but is very costly now. of ocurse that cost will be falling and when it makes business sense Tivo seems poised to put out a box that can record HD from sat, from OTA and also cable box for those not wanting to go the cable card route. It would also be a hedge against SDV and 2 way cable card not making it to public use.I'm not so sure that there is a huge market for DVR's connected to StarChoice Receivers. D* and E* provide DVRs (of varying quality, to be sure). It would make more sense to have a Tivo HD with one M-stream cablecard slot (or whatever is the next technology) and one (whatever D*/E* call their card)a slot. As an aside, maybe Congress should have D* & E* standardize their cards (note: I don't know if this is technically achievable - maybe two cards in one?).

[MickeS]

I wouldn't be surprised if TiVo did consider this, since the TiVoHD has the internal hardware AND the space on the back of it to handle AV inputs.

For some reason (my guess is price) they dropped it. I think it would be a good idea to have it included.

[acvthree]

I wouldn't be surprised if TiVo did consider this, since the TiVoHD has the internal hardware AND the space on the back of it to handle AV inputs.

For some reason (my guess is price) they dropped it. I think it would be a good idea to have it included.


No matter what the price?

Al

[atmuscarella]

No matter what the price?If the inputs were only for SD analog I believe the costs would be minimal. If the inputs were also for HD analog I believe the cost would be way to much at this time.

The TiVo HD platform appears to be designed for future model variations I agree with ZeoTiVo that something could be coming on the lower end to replace the Series 2 DT - I also believe the platform could also be used on the higher end to replace the Series 3, only time will tell.

Thanks,

[ciper]

I wouldn't be surprised if TiVo did consider this, since the TiVoHD has the internal hardware AND the space on the back of it to handle AV inputs.

For some reason (my guess is price) they dropped it. I think it would be a good idea to have it included.
Here is whay MickeS is referring to. Video inputs/ir blaster on the Tivo HD
http://www.tivolovers.com.nyud.net:8080/Photos/TiVoHD-Review/Small/TiVoHD-inside-5.jpg

[dianebrat]

My hunch? (not that anyone was asking)
But the TivoHD is the beginning of a unified platform, and the "missing inputs/outputs" shown in ciper's image will be populated for the "not yet released or announced SD unit on the TivoHD hardware base"

Just my random thoughts on a common hardware base

Diane

[dswallow]

Actually this reminds me... when this model was first leaked, people were finding two models of new TiVo HD units listed... and I'm pretty sure the difference is that one did have the external video input and IR control. Perhaps there's mention of it in the thread where the leak was first discussed.

[ciper]

My hunch? (not that anyone was asking)
But the TivoHD is the beginning of a unified platform, and the "missing inputs/outputs" shown in ciper's image will be populated for the "not yet released or announced SD unit on the TivoHD hardware base"
I agree 100%. I feel Tivo will eventually have an entry level unit which only records SD resolutions and perhaps sells for 149$

Then the question is - can we hack the base unit to enable HD resolutions :)

[Rombaldi]

responding to several without quoting (It's late and I'm tired)

1. brownie points to those who remembered that I have these hooked to STB's, RTFOM.

2. Not interested in recording OTA SD, just plain old SD Analog Video/Audio (S-Vid preferred). And since the TivoHD already can do this (via cable card). Just a matter of getting it from another source.

3. No, don't need, don't care about the SD Tuner.

4. BRAVO for those pictures! Holes in the case, spots on the circuit board. Missing what? A few dollars of parts? Less than $10. That one thing right there screams STUPIDITY! How many more TivoHD's could they sell if they put the aud/vid/blaster back in?

5. "You are in a very tiny minority of customers that desire this feature." Sez you. How many people have bemoned having to give up their DTV HDTivo's for 'that thing'. I like the Tivo Interface, the Tivo functionality and the Tivo Ease of use. "You are in a very tiny miniority of folks that think they know what people want".

[ah30k]

2. Not interested in recording OTA SD, just plain old SD Analog Video/Audio (S-Vid preferred). And since the TivoHD already can do this (via cable card). Just a matter of getting it from another source.The TiVoHD cannot record analog video from S-Video or Composite and it has nothing to do with CableCARD. What it CAN do is tune and record analog channels via its coax inputs which is totally different from recording analog sources.

[Arcady]

SD sucks. Who cares.

[GoHokies!]

4. BRAVO for those pictures! Holes in the case, spots on the circuit board. Missing what? A few dollars of parts? Less than $10. That one thing right there screams STUPIDITY! How many more TivoHD's could they sell if they put the aud/vid/blaster back in?Doesn't scream stupidity at all - they wouldn't have designed it that way if they didn't plan on using them in a future project. Since devloping and beta testing more than one new box at a time is probably more than a company like Tivo can handle, the THD is first out the gate, since Tivo decided (rightly) that a cheaper option for cable HD users was more needed than a box that could do what you wanted.

Tough cookies if you don't like it, but you'll just have to wait your turn. :)

[vstone]

...
How many more TivoHD's could they sell if they put the aud/vid/blaster back in?
I don't know, why don't you tell us?
...
How many people have bemoned having to give up their DTV HDTivo's for 'that thing'.
...Are you saying that the DirecTV HR10-250 has an S-Video input?


Just go buy the Starchoice DVR and leave us alone.

[snathanb]

So is OTA the only HD you'd ever want to record? Do you know how much of a niche that is?

I own 2 Series 3 boxes, and OTA is the only HD I record or wish to record.
I feel cable and satellite fees are outrageous for the garbage they broadcast.

Not that network broadcasts are all that much better, but I don't have to pay for them. There are enough quality shows in HD OTA to more than keep my viewing time occupied. For movies, HD-DVD/BluRay from Netflix.

[RossoNeri]

The TiVo HD was clearly designed so a version of it could be built to have AV inputs/control an STB.

Are you basing that on the fact that the board has connections for them and that the sheet metal has holes for them? If so, I think the only thing it is safe to infer from that is that the TiVo HD was clearly designed to allow the board and case to be reused. I'm not electronics designer, but from what I understand, it is quite common to design "cookie cutter" components that can be used across a variety of models to lower the cost of production. I hear from vendors at work when reviewing their network electronics hardware that XYZ was done to allow for future growth or to share the base components with other models.

Cheers.

[vstone]

I am in agreement with the OP. The TiVo HD was clearly designed so a version of it could be built to have AV inputs/control an STB.
...Fine. It was built so that version, as well as several others (like my personal favorite: the Tivo HD/DVD HD (playback only likely) box, designed to limit the number of STB's and associated remotes, reducing clutter and allowing one simple remote for most TV installations) could be built. Then Tivo could defer making the decision until later in the process. That's just smart engineering. We're talking about a marketing decision with possible legal overtones here, not a technical one.

[vstone]

I stand corrected. It is true that it will record the analog cable channels. I forgot about them because I never watch them or record from them.

Actually, there are more people in this category than you might think. Just look at all the folks with HTPCs using MythTV, BeyondTV or SageTV. You can only record OTA or in-the-clear QAM channels using a HTPC tuner. During the regular season I probably record about 90% or more of my programming from my local OTA HD network affiliates. Aside from a few shows on the Sci-Fi channel, TNT-HD, FX, USA, and HBO-HD, there isn't much on the cable channels I watch during that time period. Until DirecTV or the cable companies beef up their HD lineups, the local HD OTA channels provide the largest source of HD programming available to many people.Having built an XP MCE that I used for a year, I have to say that bringing up HTPCs muddy the water. Most of these units are built by their users or friends. Customer support on these things for local builders is too high to make a profit. I suspect the XP MCE laptops available from Toshiba are mostly never connected to a coax. HP's units have two analog, but only one digital tuner.

[Rombaldi]

"I don't know, why don't you tell us?"
At least 4, probably many, many more based on some people I've spoken with.
Are you saying that the DirecTV HR10-250 has an S-Video input?
No, it has TIVO interface, oh yea of smart ass answers
Just go buy the Starchoice DVR and leave us alone.
let's see, 4 * $299 for the TivoHD vs 4* $700 for the Starchoice DVR + it's still a crappy interface, let me know when you will paypal me $1600 to make up the price difference, till then, you quit threadcrapping and leave me alone.

[vstone]

...
you quit threadcrapping and leave me alone.OK.