So What do think abou the HR20?

[coachO]

Earl, thanks for the information. It really does help quell the feeling that D* just doesn't care about their customers. Between the customer service reps and losing features it is easy to turn to the "dark side".
I guess I just want my cake and eat it too. On the other hand I am quickly adapting to having 4 tuners. So far, the HR20 channel guide is set for only HD channels and I am recording some things I don't normally view. But sill using my HR10 as my trusty "mule".

Next thing you know we will all want 4 tuners with buffers or QLB!

[unclebrownie]

HR 20 seems to do what it is supposed to although it can be a "PIA" to use because the UI is not as good as Tivo , and yes i do miss the DLBs a lot.

[itzme]

Earl, Might one of the unmentioned reasons involve D*s desire to use a second buffer for another reason? maybe content of some sort, like ppv?

[ebonovic]

Earl, Might one of the unmentioned reasons involve D*s desire to use a second buffer for another reason? maybe content of some sort, like ppv?

No...

PPV is recorded on demand by the user.
VOD via Broadband connection...

Pushed VOD, respects the usage state of the unit.... So if something is recording on the background tuner, it will not download... and will try again at another time.

[itzme]

Earl, please help me understand your reply. You said that pushed VOD tries another time (if the unit is recording something on the other tuner). Well if the unit had dual live buffers, wouldn't we ALWAYS be recording on the other tuner, making VOD impossible for Directtv to push content? I also don't understand what you meant about Broadband. Does the HR20 use broadband (unlike the HR10)?

[bigpuma]

Earl, please help me understand your reply. You said that pushed VOD tries another time (if the unit is recording something on the other tuner). Well if the unit had dual live buffers, wouldn't we ALWAYS be recording on the other tuner, making VOD impossible for Directtv to push content? I also don't understand what you meant about Broadband. Does the HR20 use broadband (unlike the HR10)?

DirecTiVos push content as well using one of the tuners so it does not make it impossible.

As for broadband VOD requested by the user downloads via the internet. So yes the ethernet port on the back of the unit is active and it can be networked. Also you can use it to listen to music or look at photos from a computer on your network.

[MurrayW]

...With sports tickers on the football games, baseball/basketball games... the "suspense" of seeing the action... just isn't there anymore for me...

I record the "other" game if there is really something I want to see...With enough practice, you can train your eyes/mind not to pay attention to the tickers. :D And with 30 sec skipping through the huddles you pretty much take care of any in game highlights they might show of another game. I tend to watch a couple of drives of each game then switch to the next one so I usually end up only being about 10 to 15 minutes of real time (not game time) ahead of the game I am the farthest behind on. My wife complains that I just sit on the couch all day on Sunday watching football, but I am actually quite active trying to switch back and forth among all 4 games -- I really get a workout! ;) This would not be the preferred way a lot of people want to watch the games, but for me it is!

Murray

[RS4]

Curiously and not to start a war, but why does everyone feel that they will offer the replacements for free? Wouldnt it be the opposite? I would have thought by that time they would say "We know that everyone who wants to change, has" so the ones that havent, either dont care or have another reason for not switching. While I understand the desire to not lose anyone I would think that the decision is going to be very heavily weighted based on how many people still have units in operation. I would think that there is a number where they just finally say, here is the best offer, take it or leave it. I hope not but it seems that they have bent over backward over the last 18 months, and even now they appear to be tightening the purse strings significantly. Like I said, I hope I am wrong but I would like to hear a convincing argument other than, "they owe us".

Thanks

I think one of the reasons the box would be offered for free is because the holdouts don't want the HR20. We prefer the HR10-250 or a Tivo mpeg4, so if DirecTV wants to keep this crowd as I believe they do, regardless of what Scott says, they will put out a bunch more carrots :p .

[RS4]

...
Yes... they understand that there is a "large" population of users that would like to have that feature.

No... it is not a "licensing" thing

Yes... "Hard" and "Cost" those all are a factor that goes into the overall decision.

No... it is not that they don't "care"... as the fact that it has not be completely remove from the list, and is still discussed as a possibility...


With sports tickers on the football games, baseball/basketball games... the "suspense" of seeing the action... just isn't there anymore for me...

I record the "other" game if there is really something I want to see...

I infer from this that DLB is something that will be hard and expensive for DirecTV to implement. And once again, this tells me that DirecTV did not bother to study the dvr market or what users want most... i.e. this box is built by a company that is not in the dvr business - it's an afterthought. That again is why many folks consider the HR20 to not be in the same class as the HR10-250.

It seems to me that it would be a good feature to turn off the sports ticker on the paid sports packages. I ignore the sports ticker as others mentioned. I also use the 30-sec skip when they go 'back to the studio for an update'. That way I can watch the games later in the day or in the week. That's also one reason I never watch ESPN Classic - they always say what's coming up in the next segment. Who wants to watch a game when they already know what's coming up?

[Billy66]

I think one of the reasons the box would be offered for free is because the holdouts don't want the HR20. We prefer the HR10-250 or a Tivo mpeg4, so if DirecTV wants to keep this crowd as I believe they do, regardless of what Scott says, they will put out a bunch more carrots :p .


They gave me my HR10-250 for free too RS4. Same reasoning?

[bonscott87]

I think one of the reasons the box would be offered for free is because the holdouts don't want the HR20. We prefer the HR10-250 or a Tivo mpeg4, so if DirecTV wants to keep this crowd as I believe they do, regardless of what Scott says, they will put out a bunch more carrots :p .

Must be confusing me with someone else. I personally think the free or nearly free offers will be a flying early next year just as they have been pretty all this year only they will be forward in offering it instead of letting the customers come to them. There is no reason why they won't offer to upgrade people. Now if people refuse to upgrade then they will be out of luck in terms of HD but that will be their choice because DirecTV isn't going to delay the shutdown of MPEG2 HD just because some people refuse to upgrade. It will cost them much more money in not be able to recover the bandwidth for other uses (such as the need to meet the goal of all 210 markets SD locals as terms of the Liberty buyout and losing their lease on 72.5) then it would cost in lost customers that refuse to upgrade. As Earl has mentioned, there is a lot more going on that is pushing the move to MPEG4 then just converting customers.

[ebonovic]

Earl, please help me understand your reply. You said that pushed VOD tries another time (if the unit is recording something on the other tuner). Well if the unit had dual live buffers, wouldn't we ALWAYS be recording on the other tuner, making VOD impossible for Directtv to push content? I also don't understand what you meant about Broadband. Does the HR20 use broadband (unlike the HR10)?


Just like with the TiVo unit...
If DLB was added to the HR20, it could (and probably should) be coded to detect "user" usage of the tuner... It actually does that now for the primary tuner, if it doesn't see any type of IR for 4+ hours... it thinks no one is there using it.

Just like the TiVo unit.
So PUSHED-VOD, would follow the similar rules (if it was coded to do so).

The DoD (Vod), is primarily via the broadband/ethernet connection.
Yes, the HR20 is enabled with a network port, that will use your broadband connection if you allow it to do so.

[ebonovic]

I infer from this that DLB is something that will be hard and expensive for DirecTV to implement. And once again, this tells me that DirecTV did not bother to study the dvr market or what users want most... i.e. this box is built by a company that is not in the dvr business - it's an afterthought. That again is why many folks consider the HR20 to not be in the same class as the HR10-250.

It seems to me that it would be a good feature to turn off the sports ticker on the paid sports packages. I ignore the sports ticker as others mentioned. I also use the 30-sec skip when they go 'back to the studio for an update'. That way I can watch the games later in the day or in the week. That's also one reason I never watch ESPN Classic - they always say what's coming up in the next segment. Who wants to watch a game when they already know what's coming up?

Do you think any coding on a device this complex is "easy" or "cheap" to do?
Same goes for the TiVo unit... any development of a "new" feature, isn't easy or inexpensive to do.... as you have to pay for the resources to do it, and take them away from doing something else... aka... expense.

Really... so you have done market research to know what ALL dvr users want... not just those that frequent Forums?

Glad you all can ignore the sports tickers, or have developed work arounds to not be "spoiled" by scoring updates.... what do you do when the announcers verbally let you know the score with out any warning?

[jimb726]

I think one of the reasons the box would be offered for free is because the holdouts don't want the HR20. We prefer the HR10-250 or a Tivo mpeg4, so if DirecTV wants to keep this crowd as I believe they do, regardless of what Scott says, they will put out a bunch more carrots :p .

I understand that, I guess I just dont see the logic in giving away something to someone who doesnt want it in the first place. I dont mean that to satrt a fight, but in your case, you have said many times that you wouldnt take a box even if they give it to you because of the commitment. I respect that, certainly your perrogative. Now if I am a company why waste resources on someone who absolutely doesnt want my product? In your case you would have to make a decision, do I want Directv or do I want Tivo. Either one is subjective, but to me by next summer I would certainly think that most informed consumers to whom Directv is more important thatn the delivery portal will have made the switch, and whoever is still at the dance will either have to s**t or get off the pot. So to speak.

[bigpuma]

I understand that, I guess I just dont see the logic in giving away something to someone who doesnt want it in the first place. I dont mean that to satrt a fight, but in your case, you have said many times that you wouldnt take a box even if they give it to you because of the commitment. I respect that, certainly your perrogative. Now if I am a company why waste resources on someone who absolutely doesnt want my product? In your case you would have to make a decision, do I want Directv or do I want Tivo. Either one is subjective, but to me by next summer I would certainly think that most informed consumers to whom Directv is more important thatn the delivery portal will have made the switch, and whoever is still at the dance will either have to s**t or get off the pot. So to speak.

I personally believe that DirecTV should give away or sell cheap HR20s to people who have HR10s because they are making the box essentially obsolete. I paid $850 for my HR10 and I would be annoyed if I had to pay another $300 because I can no longer get the HD channels I was getting with my HR10. To me it has nothing to do with whether people like the new box better or worse but the fact that they are making it obsolete.

In my case I already got a free upgrade back in October 2006 so I am happy. I plan on purchasing a new HR20 or HR21 (when available) in the future and I will have no problem paying for it since I already got the upgrade for my HR10.

[jimb726]

I personally believe that DirecTV should give away or sell cheap HR20s to people who have HR10s because they are making the box essentially obsolete. I paid $850 for my HR10 and I would be annoyed if I had to pay another $300 because I can no longer get the HD channels I was getting with my HR10. To me it has nothing to do with whether people like the new box better or worse but the fact that they are making it obsolete.

In my case I already got a free upgrade back in October 2006 so I am happy. I plan on purchasing a new HR20 or HR21 (when available) in the future and I will have no problem paying for it since I already got the upgrade for my HR10.

I dont agree, obsolete implies it is good for nothing, reached the end of its useful life. Thats not the case here, the unit itself is still a fine piece of equipment, it will recieve all SD channels, will have the MPEG2 hd's for the foreseeable future and it still can recieve OTA HD programming. No it wont be able to decode the MPEG4 signals but thats technology. But to say its obsolete, I dont think that is true.

[bigpuma]

I dont agree, obsolete implies it is good for nothing, reached the end of its useful life. Thats not the case here, the unit itself is still a fine piece of equipment, it will recieve all SD channels, will have the MPEG2 hd's for the foreseeable future and it still can recieve OTA HD programming. No it wont be able to decode the MPEG4 signals but thats technology. But to say its obsolete, I dont think that is true.

I was referring to when DirecTV changes the current Mpeg-2 HD channels to Mpeg-4, meaning all HD channels provided via satelite would be switched to Mpeg-4 therefore you would not be able to receive them on the HR10. I think that is at least partially obsolete. Sure you can record OTA HD and SD but that is not as much as it is able to do now.

ETA: I didn't mean DirecTV needs to offer the upgrade free for now but when they start removing the Mpeg-2 feeds of HD channels.

[jimb726]

I was referring to when DirecTV changes the current Mpeg-2 HD channels to Mpeg-4, meaning all HD channels provided via satelite would be switched to Mpeg-4 therefore you would not be able to receive them on the HR10. I think that is at least partially obsolete. Sure you can record OTA HD and SD but that is not as much as it is able to do now.

ETA: I didn't mean DirecTV needs to offer the upgrade free for now but when they start removing the Mpeg-2 feeds of HD channels.

Sorry, I guess i misunderstood the post. You are correct. :up:

[milominderbinder]

I personally believe that DirecTV should give away or sell cheap HR20s to people who have HR10s because they are making the box essentially obsolete....In my case I already got a free upgrade back in October 2006 so I am happy. I plan on purchasing a new HR20 or HR21 (when available) in the future and I will have no problem paying for it since I already got the upgrade for my HR10.1. I think that the HR10 will still be able to receive SD and OTA HD after the MPEG2 shutoff.
2. People are getting $99 or $19 or even free deals here: HR10-250 and MPEG4; Upgrade Offer (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=361301&page=22&pp=30)
3. Many are getting the same deal on additional HR20's at least as of today.

- Craig

[RS4]

1. I think that the HR10 will still be able to receive SD and OTA HD after the MPEG2 shutoff.
2. People are getting $99 or $19 or even free deals here: HR10-250 and MPEG4; Upgrade Offer (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=361301&page=22&pp=30)
3. Many are getting the same deal on additional HR20's at least as of today.

- Craig
Of course they are and about half of them want the DTivo back, so they are locking themselves in for 2 years with equipment they don't want. :mad:

[Billy66]

No RS4. Half of them want an mpeg4 TiVo. ALL of them want the new HD stations.

[RS4]

No RS4. Half of them want an mpeg4 TiVo. ALL of them want the new HD stations.

Yup - agreed :p

[milominderbinder]

Of course they are and about half of them want the DTivo back, so they are locking themselves in for 2 years with equipment they don't want. :mad:
There are actually six key warnings a user should consider, not just one:
- Unless you pay $749, the HR20 will be leased.
- Adding new equipment requires a 2 year contract commitment.
- Confirm your work order with the CSR
- Verify your order online
- Verify your changes to your bill online.
- DIRECTV must do the installation.

I think that whenever we provide the warnings, we owe it to the person to tell the whole facts not just part of them.

RS, if you give the link to the Getting a Good Deal on an HR20 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=839938#post839938) link they can see all of the warnings detailed out. It also includes the links they will need for more information.

Take care,

- Craig

[RS4]

There are actually six key warnings a user should consider, not just one:
- Unless you pay $749, the HR20 will be leased.
- Adding new equipment requires a 2 year contract commitment.
- Confirm your work order with the CSR
- Verify your order online
- Verify your changes to your bill online.
- DIRECTV must do the installation.

I think that whenever we provide the warnings, we owe it to the person to tell the whole facts not just part of them.

RS, if you give the link to the Getting a Good Deal on an HR20 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=839938#post839938) link they can see all of the warnings detailed out. It also includes the links they will need for more information.

Take care,

- Craig

Thanks Craig.

I didn't see anything in your link that according to the poll, over half of them will want an mpeg4 DTivo. (BTW, that poll of Earls is quite reflective of the Engadget poll and other threads at dbstalk and here. I read a thread at dbstalk where I calculated that only one third of the repsonders said it was a good replacement for the HR10-250. Earl's poll shows around 42%.)

If you are giving them warnings, don't you think you should tell them up front that chances are you'll not like the box? :confused:

[fasTLane]

Haven't you been paying attention? It does not matter whether or not you like it. It is the only way to get the new channels. Like a fois gras goose being fed for the slaughter, the menu is somewhat limited.

Take it or leave it. ;)

[bigpuma]

Thanks Craig.

I didn't see anything in your link that according to the poll, over half of them will want an mpeg4 DTivo. (BTW, that poll of Earls is quite reflective of the Engadget poll and other threads at dbstalk and here. I read a thread at dbstalk where I calculated that only one third of the repsonders said it was a good replacement for the HR10-250. Earl's poll shows around 42%.)

If you are giving them warnings, don't you think you should tell them up front that chances are you'll not like the box? :confused:

At the risk of sounding like a broken record is there any chance you would link to these polls. I would like to see them.

[ebonovic]

There are three recent polls at DBSTalk:

Would you trade the HR20 for a TiVo (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=103400)
As of right now: 51%/49% in favor of a TiVo (~600 voting)

If the HR10-250 TIVO had mpeg4 HD would you prefer it to the HR20-700 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=103188)
51%/43%/6% (TiVo/HR20/Don't Care) ~400 voting

Would You Recommend the HR20 To a Friend (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=102478)
93%/7% (HR20/TiVo) ~800 voting

I would still like RS4 to link to the polls he is referencing, so we can see their age (to identify what point in the HR20 life cycle it was in)....

[bigpuma]

There are three recent polls at DBSTalk:

Would you trade the HR20 for a TiVo (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=103400)
As of right now: 51%/49% in favor of a TiVo (~600 voting)

If the HR10-250 TIVO had mpeg4 HD would you prefer it to the HR20-700 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=103188)
51%/43%/6% (TiVo/HR20/Don't Care)

Would You Recommend the HR20 To a Friend (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=102478)
93%/7% (HR20/TiVo) ~800 voting

I would still like RS4 to link to the polls he is referencing, so we can see their age (to identify what point in the HR20 life cycle it was in)....

Thanks Earl, that is exactly why I would like to see the links in his post. It gives it more context and I don't have to take his word for it. Not that I don't trust RS4. ;)

[RS4]

There are three recent polls at DBSTalk:

Would you trade the HR20 for a TiVo (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=103400)
As of right now: 51%/49% in favor of a TiVo (~600 voting)

If the HR10-250 TIVO had mpeg4 HD would you prefer it to the HR20-700 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=103188)
51%/43%/6% (TiVo/HR20/Don't Care)

Would You Recommend the HR20 To a Friend (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=102478)
93%/7% (HR20/TiVo) ~800 voting

I would still like RS4 to link to the polls he is referencing, so we can see their age (to identify what point in the HR20 life cycle it was in)....


I was referring to your poll plus a thread I did some calculations on plus the Engadget poll.

The dbstalk thread was something I saw a week or two ago, so it was recent. The OP had a question something to the effect that now that the HR20 had been out for a year, would you recommend it as a replacement for the HR10-250 as he was considering getting one. At that time, as I recall, there were at least 3 pages of replies.

I simply categorized the replies into yes, no, and in-between. There were around 30 unique folks responding - about 1/3 said yes, they would recommend it, 6 said no they wouldn't and the others were in between - some saying it was the only way to get mpeg4, others saying to keep it as insurance, others saying use the HR20 only for mpeg4 and Tivo for the rest, and the final middle area was it was okay.

Those numbers from the thread I sampled are about the same as your poll and the engadget poll.

[ebonovic]

The Engadget Poll:
http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/07/27/poll-is-directvs-hr20-ready-for-primetime/

And Milo's: "Would your recommend..."
Poll was a result of the thread you refering to... IIRC

[jimb726]

The Engadget Poll:
http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/07/27/poll-is-directvs-hr20-ready-for-primetime/

And Milo's: "Would your recommend..."
Poll was a result of the thread you refering to... IIRC

That cant be the thread he is talking about, unless I am reading it wrong, only 24% said its not ready and the majority of the respondants 41% said it was. Or am I missing something?

[RS4]

...
And Milo's: "Would your recommend..."
Poll was a result of the thread you refering to... IIRC

If you are referring that to me, no the sampling I took was not from a poll. It was instead a regular thread.

[jimb726]

If you are referring that to me, no the sampling I took was not from a poll. It was instead a regular thread.

Thats what I figured. :up:

[RS4]

The point is that the majority of Tivo owners don't think the product is better than a Tivo, just as I have been saying for months.

DirecTV offers no choice at the moment. But, is that a wise move? I don't think so.

[ebonovic]

If you are referring that to me, no the sampling I took was not from a poll. It was instead a regular thread.

What I was referring too.... was the Poll Milo started, was a result of the "question" raised in the thread you were referring to that you collected your data from.

[RS4]

What I was referring too.... was the Poll Milo started, was a result of the "question" raised in the thread you were referring to that you collected your data from.


Oh, ok. Since I am interested in a Tivo or a unit perceived to be better then Tivo, his poll, while interesting, did not address my area of interest.

[bonscott87]

Oh, ok. Since I am interested in a Tivo or a unit perceived to be better then Tivo, his poll, while interesting, did not address my area of interest.

I just have to ask, why do you care? Does the HR20 have to be "better" then Tivo?

DirecTV's sub numbers keep going up and churn is down. All the while 125,000 (and growing) DirecTivo subs are lost every quarter. No indication if they all leave DirecTV and being that churn is actually down I'd say no. And this is with over 2 years of no SD DirecTivo option and over a year of no HD DirecTivo option. And record HD sub growth.

Dish seems to be doing just fine with their DVR which many would say is not "better" then the Tivo. And cable with their tens of millions of non-Tivo DVR subs seem to be doing fine despite definately not being "better" then Tivo.

So again, please enlighten us in what reality does it matter if Tivo is "better" or not? Does it matter if HR20 owners would prefer a Tivo if they don't leave DirecTV? Of course it doesn't matter. You're really starting to reach now.

[KurtBJC]

I have been engaged in a fairly long discourse with DirecTV support on this issue. I really am hoping that other people are doing the same. Essentially what I have said (and it's true; I'm not just getting blustery here) is that although I think DirecTV is great, and have been a subscriber for nearly ten years, I will drop DirecTV in a heartbeat if Comcast suddenly comes up with an HD channel lineup better than what's available on MPEG-2 through DirecTV, or if DirecTV drops its MPEG-2 HD channels.

I am angry over DirecTV's failure to offer a TiVo alternative to its DVR; and although the customer service people have repeatedly tried to pitch the new DVR to me I have made it very clear that I will not accept it. I won't accept it for a price; I won't accept it for free; I want a TiVo; I would pay good money for a TiVo; and if they won't provide it I will just move to digital cable, with all of the bad service and inconvenience that represents, because it will allow me to go on using TiVo indefinitely.

My fear is that they've convinced themselves that TiVo versus a crappy DVR is really not an important difference; and that, if they force their customers to accept their DVR, the customers will follow along. I am trying to make the case that this is not so; that DirecTV can survive only by continuing to offer superior service; and that the distinction between TiVo and their piece-of-crap unit is important enough for them to lose subscribers over. It certainly will be the cause of my termination of DirecTV service, if they don't get their act together on this.

So, if you're a TiVo fundamentalist like me, try writing to customer service; and don't let them lure you into some sort of special deal on the new DVR (I had to go about four rounds with them before they stopped trying to pull that switch), but keep pressing the point and ask them to forward your e-mail to the people who make decisions about this sort of thing.

[jeff125va]

I now have 3 HR20's and 1 HR10. At first I was reluctant to make the switch, but while I still prefer some things about the TiVo, I'd probably go with the HR20 if I had to choose one over the other. Pros and cons:

HR20 Pros:
Many more HD channels.
Increased recording capacity due to mpeg-4 locals and ease of adding external hard drive.
Ability to use the menu and list with the show (either live or recorded) still playing (although I wish that could be turned off when I turn it on in the middle of a game I'm recording, or a show that I'm weeks behind on).
Only records first run episodes that are actually first run episodes, so my SP's don't pick up dozens of Simpsons reruns with generic guide data throughout the week.
Space remaining indicator.
Brings up both options to cancel when a request creates a 3-way conflict.
I actually like the 30-second "slip" sometimes. I don't feel as left out of friends' conversations about funny commercials any more.

HR10 Pros:
DLB's - Would like to have as an option, but carries very little weight for me personally.
Keep At Most with Save Until I Delete works the way I'd like it to - stops recording new episodes once it reaches the limit. (HR20 deletes the oldest)
30-second skip.
Skip-to-tick a lot easier to use.
Guide grid with side-by-side option.

[milominderbinder]

RS,

Why don't you give all 6 key warnings? Why not tell the whole truth?
There are actually six key warnings a user should consider, not just one:
- Unless you pay $749, the HR20 will be leased.
- Adding new equipment requires a 2 year contract commitment.
- Confirm your work order with the CSR
- Verify your order online
- Verify your changes to your bill online.
- DIRECTV must do the installation.

I think that whenever we provide the warnings, we owe it to the person to tell the whole facts not just part of them.

RS, if you give the link to the Getting a Good Deal on an HR20 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=839938#post839938) link they can see all of the warnings detailed out. It also includes the links they will need for more information.

Take care,

- CraigAlso, I added this link under resources:

Would you Recommend the HR20 to a Freind? (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=102478) Poll of 767 HR20 users: 92% say "Yes".

I never could find your poll that said 24% of HR20 users liked the HR20. So I ran this one. To me the only test of a product is if real users would recommend the existing product to a friend.

Also, did you see that the CIR rollout started last week? The Channels I Receive filter has been the number one request for the HR20. That is by far my biggest request.

Finally, it will be interesting to see how people feel after the rollout of VOD in the next couple of weeks. They will find they have 1,000 added choices. I never thought I would use Video on Demand but we have downloaded on average one movie extra a week using it.

- Craig

[fasTLane]

I have been engaged in a fairly long discourse with DirecTV support on this issue. I really am hoping that other people are doing the same. Essentially what I have said (and it's true; I'm not just getting blustery here) is that although I think DirecTV is great, and have been a subscriber for nearly ten years, I will drop DirecTV in a heartbeat if Comcast suddenly comes up with an HD channel lineup better than what's available on MPEG-2 through DirecTV, or if DirecTV drops its MPEG-2 HD channels.

I am angry over DirecTV's failure to offer a TiVo alternative to its DVR; and although the customer service people have repeatedly tried to pitch the new DVR to me I have made it very clear that I will not accept it. I won't accept it for a price; I won't accept it for free; I want a TiVo; I would pay good money for a TiVo; and if they won't provide it I will just move to digital cable, with all of the bad service and inconvenience that represents, because it will allow me to go on using TiVo indefinitely.

My fear is that they've convinced themselves that TiVo versus a crappy DVR is really not an important difference; and that, if they force their customers to accept their DVR, the customers will follow along. I am trying to make the case that this is not so; that DirecTV can survive only by continuing to offer superior service; and that the distinction between TiVo and their piece-of-crap unit is important enough for them to lose subscribers over. It certainly will be the cause of my termination of DirecTV service, if they don't get their act together on this.

So, if you're a TiVo fundamentalist like me, try writing to customer service; and don't let them lure you into some sort of special deal on the new DVR (I had to go about four rounds with them before they stopped trying to pull that switch), but keep pressing the point and ask them to forward your e-mail to the people who make decisions about this sort of thing.Well said.

[annenoe]

Had my HR20-700 installed this weekend. We moved the HR10-250 to another room.

So far, eh, good and bad. The range of HD channels is definitely good - and my pic is clearer (my OTA is good, but not 100%).

The bad...
The UI is definitely NOT better - but being used to tivo, it's to be expected. Do I hate it? No, just isn't as slick as tivo.
Since Sunday install, I've had to unplug reboot twice - the box stops accepting remote commands.
Since Sunday install, I've had various sound drop outs. Annoying but not a deal breaker.

It's 6 of one, 1/2 a dozen of the other. The HD is very seductive.

At this point, if someone told me I had to give up one of the boxes, either the HR10 or the HR20, I actually would have to think about it. I really do like the expanded HD programming.

[Todd]

The HR20 will never be the preferred DVR until is has DLB, period. I've tried using it as my main DVR, but I just can't. I keep going back to my HDTiVo. Plus, the elegant simplicity of the TiVo interface is just plain better in most respects. Sure, the HR20 has all the new HD channels and has a few other advantages, but it still needs work. I am impressed that D* releases updates regularly, but it still needs DLB.

[stevel]

I can understand that DLB is important for many, especially sports fans, but for me, it's a non-issue. Nevertheless I'd like to see DirecTV support it. I'd much rather see them fix the Channels I Receive bug, which bites me almost every day.

The UI is a bit strange (you can't get to all of it from one place as you can on TiVo) but it's ok. It does things TiVo doesn't.

[AVPhan]

After being with HR20-100 about 3+ months, I now ended up using HR10 as a backup recording for it due to too many "canceled due to no longer in the guide" or the likes....

[RS4]

RS,

Why don't you give all 6 key warnings? Why not tell the whole truth?
Also, I added this link under resources:

Would you Recommend the HR20 to a Freind? (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=102478) Poll of 767 HR20 users: 92% say "Yes".

I never could find your poll that said 24% of HR20 users liked the HR20. So I ran this one. To me the only test of a product is if real users would recommend the existing product to a friend.

Also, did you see that the CIR rollout started last week? The Channels I Receive filter has been the number one request for the HR20. That is by far my biggest request.

Finally, it will be interesting to see how people feel after the rollout of VOD in the next couple of weeks. They will find they have 1,000 added choices. I never thought I would use Video on Demand but we have downloaded on average one movie extra a week using it.

- Craig

Craig, once again you are in a Tivo forum trying to convert Tivo owners. I'm always surprised that the forum owners and the moderator allow that, especially in light of the polls showing Tivo users still prefer the Tivo over the HR20. Look at Earls posts, they are much more relevant then yours which did not even reference the Tivo.

Also remind them that your suggestion of keeping the HR10-250 is giving another $60 a year to a company that still has a second-rated dvr according to Earl's polls and all of the other threads I've read. So, in effect, you're saying reward this company for mediocre equipment.

It's fine to encourage all of the folks you want, but be honest with them. But, let them know that more than half of them want an mpeg4 Tivo, so they can make an honest decision. I certainly agree that the whole truth is the way to go.

[AVPhan]

......

Also remind them that your suggestion of keeping the HR10-250 is giving another $60 a year to a company that still has a second-rated dvr according to Earl's polls and all of the other threads I've read. ....... mediocre equipment.

.....But, let them know that more than half of them want an mpeg4 Tivo, so they can make an honest decision. I certainly agree that the whole truth is the way to go.

Amen

[ebonovic]

Craig, once again you are in a Tivo forum trying to convert Tivo owners. I'm always surprised that the forum owners and the moderator allow that, especially in light of the polls showing Tivo users still prefer the Tivo over the HR20. Look at Earls posts, they are much more relevant then yours which did not even reference the Tivo.

Also remind them that your suggestion of keeping the HR10-250 is giving another $60 a year to a company that still has a second-rated dvr according to Earl's polls and all of the other threads I've read. So, in effect, you're saying reward this company for mediocre equipment.

It's fine to encourage all of the folks you want, but be honest with them. But, let them know that more than half of them want an mpeg4 Tivo, so they can make an honest decision. I certainly agree that the whole truth is the way to go.


The "votes" are one thing... but the reasons for the votes are another.

The responses to why people vote the way they do... is what is the "meat" of those threads/polls.

If you read the posts.... A LOT of people gave the edge to one box over the other because of 1 or 2 things....

That is a FAR FAR CRY... from people selecting one because one is mediocre and one is not.

A lot of the people the voted... also did so assuming things that this fictious new DTiVo would have all the featuers of a Series 3.... anyone want to bet that if one is built, it would not have all the features?

There were an awfull lot of "yes, buts.." in those replies.

[RS4]

The "votes" are one thing... but the reasons for the votes are another.

The responses to why people vote the way they do... is what is the "meat" of those threads/polls.

If you read the posts.... A LOT of people gave the edge to one box over the other because of 1 or 2 things....

That is a FAR FAR CRY... from people selecting one because one is mediocre and one is not.

A lot of the people the voted... also did so assuming things that this fictious new DTiVo would have all the featuers of a Series 3.... anyone want to bet that if one is built, it would not have all the features?

There were an awfull lot of "yes, buts.." in those replies.

Here is yet another poll showing that owners prefer the Tivo Favorite Box poll (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=103988)

If you take one of the longer threads like I did and dissect it, or look at engadget, or other threads here, the sentiment is generally the same - there are always people who prefer the HR20, but the majority wants a Tivo HD Mpeg4. No matter how you slice it, the Tivo is always the winner among Tivo owners.

[JohnB1000]

RS4 that is so statistically inaccurate. I would make a pretty clear assumption that only those who own or owned a TIVO would ever want a new TIVO. Sadly for TIVO that was never a particularly large number. DirecTV has a huge customer base that has never owned a TIVO who will be more than impressed by the HR20. In addition a lot of users at DBSTalk are TIVO owners that again does not represent the population in general.

Now as always you tend to send me off track. My position is that TIVO is better but HR20 is more than good enough and gives you access to the new channels. There is no reason for you to be so passionately anti-HR20 in my opinion. Supporting TIVO does not automatically mean you have to be anti HR20 - in my opinion of course.

I for one am not trying to convert anyone, I am trying to belay you convincing TIVO owners that the HR20 has no merit.

[Jeremy517]

Here is yet another poll showing that owners prefer the Tivo Favorite Box poll (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=103988)

If you take one of the longer threads like I did and dissect it, or look at engadget, or other threads here, the sentiment is generally the same - there are always people who prefer the HR20, but the majority wants a Tivo HD Mpeg4. No matter how you slice it, the Tivo is always the winner among Tivo owners.

Just because the majority say they'd prefer a TiVo doesn't mean that they dislike their HR20s. Most people seem to find it very close between the two. Most people who say they prefer the TiVo say that it just has a slight edge. Most people who say they prefer the HR-20 says it just has a slight edge. You're making it sound like most people would get out of their commitments because they hate the HR-20, which simply isn't true.

[Mike Lang]

After a month of trying to like my HR20, it's been designated as the red-headed stepchild of the home theater used only to record what the TiVo HD and HR10-250 can't.

[tlrowley]

After a month of trying to like my HR20, it's been designated as the red-headed stepchild of the home theater used only to record what the TiVo HD and HR10-250 can't.

I'm with you, Mike. I want to like the HR20 - I love the new Mpeg4 channels - but the box itself is making it very difficult to like it. I can't remember ever missing a recording on my (fully upgraded & hacked) HR10s - I've had reboots (that seem disk based), but never just an outright refusal to record, like I get on the HR20. I've had so many "unexpected error (3)" that they're not unexpected anymore! I'd accept the clunky interface, and the lack of DLB, but a DVR has got to record reliably, and the HR20 simply doesn't.

The HR20 is now my L&O:CI (on USAHD) and Stargate: Atlantis (on SciFiHD) box.

Tracey

[Rigelian]

I've always wondered about the unexpected error problem, I've had two when I first got the HR20 and then none ever since. However, the biggest non-recording error I got was the someone in the household cancelled your program error that I got with the HR10-250. That one drove me crazy.

[milominderbinder]

After a month of trying to like my HR20, it's been designated as the red-headed stepchild of the home theater used only to record what the TiVo HD and HR10-250 can't.This is exactly the solution that many are taking.

- Craig

[bonscott87]

I'm with you, Mike. I want to like the HR20 - I love the new Mpeg4 channels - but the box itself is making it very difficult to like it. I can't remember ever missing a recording on my (fully upgraded & hacked) HR10s - I've had reboots (that seem disk based), but never just an outright refusal to record, like I get on the HR20. I've had so many "unexpected error (3)" that they're not unexpected anymore! I'd accept the clunky interface, and the lack of DLB, but a DVR has got to record reliably, and the HR20 simply doesn't.

The HR20 is now my L&O:CI (on USAHD) and Stargate: Atlantis (on SciFiHD) box.

Tracey

If you are getting "unexpected errors" then PLEASE go to DBSTalk and report it. Give as much detail as you can. There is a dedicated sticky thread in the CE forum to try to track this issue down. While I personally have never seen it there are some users that have had it. Doesn't appear to be massively widespread but it's still a problem. DirecTV wants all the details so they can try to track it down. For the most part I think it's fubar guide data but the HR20 is choking on it which means DirecTV needs to figure out why and fix it (either the guide data, HR20 or both). Only by reporting it can they do that.

So again, please, any problems like this please report on DBSTalk with tons of details as requested in that thread.

[jaypb]

I'm with you, Mike. I want to like the HR20 - I love the new Mpeg4 channels - but the box itself is making it very difficult to like it. I can't remember ever missing a recording on my (fully upgraded & hacked) HR10s - I've had reboots (that seem disk based), but never just an outright refusal to record, like I get on the HR20. I've had so many "unexpected error (3)" that they're not unexpected anymore! I'd accept the clunky interface, and the lack of DLB, but a DVR has got to record reliably, and the HR20 simply doesn't.

The HR20 is now my L&O:CI (on USAHD) and Stargate: Atlantis (on SciFiHD) box.

Tracey

+1

Since June, I've only used my HR20 for channels I CAN NOT get on my 4 HDTIVO's OR if I can't FIT anything else on my other Tivos (SD or HD).

I'm sure it'll be more of the same for now...until I either lose an HDTIVO due to age/failure or some newer features/functionality come to the HR20.

[AVPhan]

+1

Since June, I've only used my HR20 for channels I CAN NOT get on my 4 HDTIVO's OR if I can't FIT anything else on my other Tivos (SD or HD).

I'm sure it'll be more of the same for now...until I either lose an HDTIVO due to age/failure or some newer features/functionality come to the HR20.

+1.

If it wasn't of:
1. Investment on HR10 (Paid full price when first came out) + additional disk.
2. Needs MLB EI and ST.

I would have gone else where.

[RS4]

Just because the majority say they'd prefer a TiVo doesn't mean that they dislike their HR20s. Most people seem to find it very close between the two. Most people who say they prefer the TiVo say that it just has a slight edge. Most people who say they prefer the HR-20 says it just has a slight edge. You're making it sound like most people would get out of their commitments because they hate the HR-20, which simply isn't true.

I see a lot of posts like the four or so above this complaining. I'm not making up the numbers - read almost any thread with significant responses and I'm sure you'd come to the same conclusion. I believe there are around 20% that don't like it at all.
I think there are somewhere around another 20% with the sentiments expressed above. That to me is a strong dislike.

The thing is, DirecTV gave us Tivos that many of us like, and according to what I read here and elsewhere, their current offering does not improve (and in many minds does not even match) on the Tivo. So, that means Tivo users are locking in for 2 more years with equipment that they don't like as well as the Tivo.

I think a more reflective poll would be:

How do you think the HR20 relates to the HR10-250?
It's better - I don't need the Tivo
It's terrible - give me back my Tivo
It's the only game in town for mpeg4
Keep the Tivo, only use HR20 for mpeg4
Keep the Tivo, record everything on it (that is possible) and also on the HR20
It's okay - I'm neutral
No opinion

[JohnB1000]

Your asking a different question there though RS4. If the question is "do you prefer the HR10" it's quite different than "Is the HR20 a good enough unit for the new channels"

If you ask the right question you'll always get the right answer.

+ once more, asking a community populated by TIVO users (here and DBSTALK) is not balanced.

[fasTLane]

FWIW, Cnet user ratings gave the DirecTivo a 5.8/10 vs. a 4.2/10 for the HR20... not that it matters.

[ebonovic]

FWIW, Cnet user ratings gave the DirecTivo a 5.8/10 vs. a 4.2/10 for the HR20... not that it matters.

That raiting for the HR20, also goes back to the very first day of the HR20...

And the box today... is no where near the same as it was 14 months ago... nor 9 months ago, or even 6 months ago.

Same can be said for the DTiVo, to a marginal degree.. (it hasn't gone through as much transition since it's releases, and the poling started)

[fasTLane]

Some respondees are current.

http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-video-recorders-dvrs/directv-hr20-directv-plus/4852-6474_7-32065196.html?tag=srtdate&ord=creationDate+desc

http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-video-recorders-dvrs/directv-hd-dvr-hd/4852-6474_7-30842839.html?tag=srtdate&ord=creationDate+desc

[ebonovic]

Yes... some are... but there are also a LOT that are no where near being current.

[nrc]

That raiting for the HR20, also goes back to the very first day of the HR20...

If you do the math for the last month or two the rating is actually even worse than average. The ratings on CNET do not support the claim that the HR20 is getting any better. I imagine some helpful folks will make a point to "correct" that now. ;)

[JohnB1000]

A lot of imagining going on

[ebonovic]

If you do the math for the last month or two the rating is actually even worse than average. The ratings on CNET do not support the claim that the HR20 is getting any better. I imagine some helpful folks will make a point to "correct" that now. ;)

That's the magic of anonymous voting systems....

You can vote it high to change the numbers.... or you can vote it low... to try and bring them down...

[nrc]

That's the magic of anonymous voting systems....

You can vote it high to change the numbers.... or you can vote it low... to try and bring them down...
There's really nothing in the recent CNET reviews to date that suggests that anyone has made a deliberate effort to influence the numbers.

[fasTLane]

I can agree there. The recent counts are too low to suggest "campaigning". ;)