Of interest to UK owners "Tivo Will Fail" in Australia and "Bombed" in UK [Text View]

mikerr

08-20-2007, 12:29 PM

The UK is more split than it was 5 years ago.

Freeview:
Currently flooded with cheap non-sub twin tuner boxes.
Its a non-subscription model, would the masses pay for a £200+ box AND a sub ?
TBH many are happy with the dumb DVRs with little/no outlay.

Sky/Cable:
People are happy to pay a sub, and high box costs, but since there are no cablecards etc,
It would have to be a single analogue SD capture, when everyone is going HD with mutliple tuners....

Only real option is to work with VirginMedia Cable, as we know the V+ hardware supports tivo, but VM is not cash rich either...

cwaring

08-20-2007, 05:10 PM

Only real option is to work with VirginMedia Cable, as we know the V+ hardware supports tivo, but VM is not cash rich either...

[blatant plug]
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/tivo4vplus/index.html
[/blatant plug]

:D

Sorry. Had to be done ;)

aerialplug

08-21-2007, 08:39 AM

Sadly, I think I have to agree with mikerr.

When TiVo first launched, there simply was nothing else on the market that did what it did. If it had been marketted well or if public awareness as to what it could do have been made better it may have had a chance of making it as it has in the States. And even then it didn't do well enough to sustain the TiVo marketting model here in the UK.

Now, there are multitudes of Freeview PVRs where the consumer can buy the box (in many cases under £100) and use "forever" more without a subscription.

Similarly, a Sky customer no longer feels like they're being charged to use Sky+ now that the £10 a month fee has been dropped (though in reality someone wishing to use a Sly box without any subscription at all still won't get Sky+).

I'm not sure what the situation with cable is as I don't have cable nor do any of my friends any more since Sky One was dropped from Virgin.

THe point is, people will look at TiVo as just another PVR and not understand nor want to pay for a service which provides all the extra metadata to allow TiVo to do what it does. The public never really liked the TiVo subscription/phone line model - I know a lot of people in fact who refuse to plug their Sky boxes into the phone line out of suspicion.

Much as I'd like to see TiVo coming back, I'd only be interested in an S3 TiVo if it could record from all of the Sky channels (like my current S1 TiVo with its dedicated Sky multiroom Sky box). And that's not going to happen unless someone in our government is brave enough to break Sky's anticompetitive hold on the satellite market.

It may stand a slim chance if cable picks up TiVo software as its model but that's no consolation for people living in the sticks like me (I live only half an hour away from the last village in the UK to be connected to the national grid and that was only 2 1/2 years ago!)

I wonder if the moderate sized community of TiVo users in Australia, who up until now have provided their own service using modified UK & US S1 boxes will now have to stop using their home made service when a true TiVo service launches and technically they may be seen to be stealing a service from TiVo (though I don't know Australian law)?

Pete77

08-21-2007, 09:12 AM

I live only half an hour away from the last village in the UK to be connected to the national grid and that was only 2 1/2 years ago!)

Makes me remember an especially grisly Torchwood episode that put me off the series for good and made me cancel my season pass. I think you may know the one I mean.

But take heart from the fact that unenlightened West Sussex County Council has still not paid the cost of ADSL upgrading three small exchanges in the County for which it previously paid for a crap wifi solution that almost certainly is as slow as a dog and drops out all the time. Yet every exchange in Wales now has ADSL, even if some only have 512k only Exchange Activate.

As to Tivo I think the only chance in the UK now is if Virgin Media want to try to justify customers paying their high premium rate subscriptions to them instead of Sky, especially with the loss of Sky One.

There seems no hope at all on Freeview for Tivo now as Freeview Playback boxes with Series Link functionality that works will be out there by the end of the year. At that point there will be a service almost as good as Tivo (from the point of view most users who don't know about Advanced Wishlists or thumbs ratings and Suggestions) but also with dual tuner support and PDC linking to accurate program start and end recording and for no ongoing monthly subscription. The boxes that can do this will probably initially cost a couple of hundred quid but the price will fall to 100 quid or less over the following year or two.

mikerr

08-21-2007, 09:16 AM

There's nothing to stop tivo making/licencing a freeview playback box either,
but their subscription model is more suited to those who already pay a subscription for tv channels,
i.e. sky & cable users.

Pete77

08-21-2007, 09:45 AM

There's nothing to stop tivo making/licencing a freeview playback box either

Only the fact that the Freeview Playback market is now too competitive and that the typical price point is too low value so no one will be prepared to pay a monthly sub for Tivo service as a result. Especially with the Series Link and PDC parts of Freeview Playback soon being able to do the significant part of what a Tivo S2 can do for most potential users (that is normal people rather than sad techno geek gadget lovers like ourselves). ;) :p

cleudo

08-21-2007, 02:35 PM

An advertising-supported TiVo service would stand the best chance of succeding imo, rather than the subscription model.

An integrated ADSL modem & wireless router might be a good idea as well...

TCM2007

08-21-2007, 03:28 PM

Sorry guys, but TiVo ain't coming back to the UK.

Pete77

08-21-2007, 03:40 PM

Sorry guys, but TiVo ain't coming back to the UK.

What about Virgin Media.

It has been announced this afternoon that Steve Birch, their current CEO, has been given the push for failure to get the results the company is after and also the sale proposal is now off the agenda following the recent collapse of the private equity model for company buyouts.

Couldn't the Tivo user interface on the V+ box be just what Virgin needs to establish why it is offering the best PVR in the marketplace and why customers who have the choice (i.e. those with Sky in a Virgin Media cabled area) should switch to it.

A possible problem not mentioned in Carl's poll a while back though may perhaps be that none of the other boxes in Virgin's range can run Tivo software so they would have to encourage everyone to upgrade to a V+ package with Tivo software being one of the main inducements.

TCM2007

08-21-2007, 04:19 PM

What about Virgin Media.

What about them? They have their own system. The software which the PVR runs is not a material part of the decison making process for normal people, who look at price andn channel choice.

It's not going to happen, however much forum members here are in denial.

Pete77

08-21-2007, 05:04 PM

What about them? They have their own system. The software which the PVR runs is not a material part of the decison making process for normal people, who look at price andn channel choice.

V+ is a high end product for more demanding consumers who do appreciate such things.

Despite your lack of faith that the general public can appreciate the difference between different forms of PVR software its perfectly clear that in the US where they have experienced Tivo software that they do discern the difference and prefer it over all the alternative options.

The major obstacle is the fact that Sky repeatedly abuses its Significant Market Power in dominating the pay tv channel marketplace to keep out technically superior rivals which it believes it would have to pay more royalties to and so earn a lower profit margin.

cwaring

08-21-2007, 05:05 PM

A possible problem not mentioned in Carl's poll a while back though may perhaps be that none of the other boxes in Virgin's range can run Tivo software so they would have to encourage everyone to upgrade to a V+ package with Tivo software being one of the main inducements.
Well seeing as none of the other boxes in Virgin's range are PVRs I don't think it would be a problem ;):rolleyes:

V+ is a high end product for more demanding consumers who do appreciate such things.
Actually, I'd call it a poor substitute for a Tivo, but maybe that's just me :p:)

Pete77

08-21-2007, 05:28 PM

Actually, I'd call it a poor substitute for a Tivo, but maybe that's just me :p:)

Agreed.

Which is why it needs the addition of the cable Tivo software, which partnered with three tuners and the basically decent hardware platform should make it very nearly perfect. :up:

mikerr

08-21-2007, 05:32 PM

Sorry guys, but TiVo ain't coming back to the UK.

What ? you'll be saying there's no tooth fairy next! ;)

stevencarpenter

08-21-2007, 06:20 PM

There are a couple more alternatives that are being missed in the very useful debate.

The first is broadband TV / IPTV and the second is free sat (the BBC and ITV initiative for HD content).

I think if the guys in Oz can get the volumes of the STB's up, as they use the same TV standards as us (much closer then the US for instance) then there is a possibility of a premium market in the UK with the early adoptor tech heads. I'd buy another one without a second thought, Sky and Virgins offerings are still pants.

The problem about the UK is its not Europe and without a strategy to do Europe (much harder than multiple states in the USA) then it is going to be hard to see it happen, unless its on the back of a UK service provider.

I have been using Apple TV for a while and the you tube funcitionality is very good, with the iminent arrival of content in the UK iTune store I think the model for TiVo is to find a triple play broadband provider, like Carphone Warehouse, and then leverage the delivery and PPV/VoD with Amazon.

I'm sure its not dead, not yet, just TiVo made it much harder as they failed to market Series 1 to the UK the first time around.

TCM2007

08-21-2007, 06:52 PM

V+ is a high end product for more demanding consumers who do appreciate such things.

Despite your lack of faith that the general public can appreciate the difference between different forms of PVR software its perfectly clear that in the US where they have experienced Tivo software that they do discern the difference and prefer it over all the alternative options.

Is it? I think you'll find that TiVo's market share of DVRs is plummetting in the US as cable and satellite providers ship their own systems. One estimate projects a 2% (TWO) in 2010!

Basically why would you, as a cable company CEO, chose to pay TiVo for their interface which might gain you a handful of hard-core techies, over your own in-house (ie, free solution) which is at least as good as the market leader and one everyone knows (Sky+). You wouldn't.

aerialplug

08-21-2007, 07:35 PM

Makes me remember an especially grisly Torchwood episode that put me off the series for good and made me cancel my season pass. I think you may know the one I mean.

Yes, I know exactly the episode you mean - and I live even closer to that village! At least the one it was filmed in. Here are a couple of pictures I took earlier:

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/417715
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/417648

Because of their proximity to the quarry nearby these houses have been on the national grid for years. Plus, they're not inhabited by cannibalistic people who thrive on darkness. Well, the first part is true anyway...

ciper

08-21-2007, 07:35 PM

Is it? I think you'll find that TiVo's market share of DVRs is plummetting in the US as cable and satellite providers ship their own systems. One estimate projects a 2% (TWO) in 2010!
The overall marketshare is dropping but the number of Tivo users is increasing. The statistic is misleading because it is comparing markets which previously only had Tivo with current times where even the smallest cities have cable co. provided DVRs available

the_hut

08-21-2007, 09:06 PM

The major obstacle is the fact that Sky repeatedly abuses its Significant Market Power in dominating the pay tv channel marketplace ...

Statements such as that one are at best inaccurate and at worst libellous. If I were an admin on this site, I would be removing that post (as well as several others of yours.)

PS: To Pete77: No personal messages, please.

kitschcamp

08-22-2007, 12:36 AM

Basically why would you, as a cable company CEO, chose to pay TiVo for their interface which might gain you a handful of hard-core techies, over your own in-house (ie, free solution)
I'm surprised at you for that one. No company would ever consider it free. The costs of staff, etc, for developing your own solution and supporting your own solution are far from free. Very far from free.

cwaring

08-22-2007, 02:47 AM

Statements such as that one are at best inaccurate and at worst libellous.
Only if it's not true; which (In my opinion) it is ;):p:D

I'm surprised at you for that one. No company would ever consider it free. The costs of staff, etc, for developing your own solution and supporting your own solution are far from free. Very far from free.
I wonder which would have cost, for example, Telewest, more. Creating their own software for their new TV Drive or licensing Tivo's?

Pete77

08-22-2007, 03:06 AM

Statements such as that one are at best inaccurate

Sky is a company that has raised the minimum cost of a subscription with it by 50% in the last two or three years.

Now if that isn't a sign of its Significant Market Power then I don't know what is.

Pete77

08-22-2007, 03:11 AM

I wonder which would have cost, for example, Telewest, more. Creating their own software for their new TV Drive or licensing Tivo's?

In reality I suspect the software for Tv Drive came from a third party supplier that offered it a price considerably cheaper than Tivo would have been prepared to.

Unless of course you know different?

Pete77

08-22-2007, 03:36 AM

Basically why would you, as a cable company CEO, chose to pay TiVo for their interface which might gain you a handful of hard-core techies, over your own in-house (ie, free solution) which is at least as good as the market leader and one everyone knows (Sky+). You wouldn't.

Because you might just be interested in actually producing the best product in the marketplace rather than simply bleeding your customers dry for as much profit as you can squeeze out of them.

Or are there no businessmen left who are also passionate about their product?

So far as I can tell Tivo Inc is a company driven as much by passionate belief in what it does as a desire to make a profit.

cwaring

08-22-2007, 06:12 AM

In reality I suspect the software for Tv Drive came from a third party supplier that offered it a price considerably cheaper than Tivo would have been prepared to. Unless of course you know different?
Well I do seem too recall it being mentioned in passing that they wrote it themselves, but I wouldn't swear to it :)

iankb

08-22-2007, 06:32 AM

So far as I can tell Tivo Inc is a company driven as much by passionate belief in what it does as a desire to make a profit.While the management and employees probably share that belief, their investors/shareholders will almost certainly have the opposite view. And I know which group is likely to have the biggest say, while they still have problems with profitability.

mikerr

08-22-2007, 07:09 AM

TCM2007

08-22-2007, 07:15 AM

I'm surprised at you for that one. No company would ever consider it free. The costs of staff, etc, for developing your own solution and supporting your own solution are far from free. Very far from free.

It's already been developed and is shipping so development costs don't come in to play, they are a sunk cost.

It's hard to see that maintenance costs could be more than the fee due to TiVo.

TCM2007

08-22-2007, 07:21 AM

Since they have even renamed the TVDrive into V+ to draw direct comparisons with sky+,
I'd expect they would be open to something which would be far superior to sky+
V+ isn't.

I remember they did even do a survey which basically mentioned many tivo features as possible add-ons to V+

They could make an advertising deal out of tivo vs sky+ features, as comparative advertising is allowed nowadays (asda vs tesco price check).

If only VM had the money to burn that sky has...

They already do that with V+ vs Sky+:

http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/dtv/vplus/how.html

To be honest, many TiVo's advanges are hard to list out - it's ease of use an quality feel is so much better, but how do you sell that in an ad? Wishlists, better search, persistent season passes - all great features but not killer apps to a nation who things Sky+ is the bees knees.

kitschcamp

08-22-2007, 07:25 AM

mikerr

08-22-2007, 07:39 AM

They already do that with V+ vs Sky+:
Which tells you what? That V+ has an extra tuner, nothing much else.
To be honest, many TiVo's advanges are hard to list out - it's ease of use an quality feel is so much better, but how do you sell that in an ad? Wishlists, better search, persistent season passes - all great features but not killer apps to a nation who things Sky+ is the bees knees.
It wouldn't be a series 1 though, it would have HMO as well:
http://www.tivo.com/whatistivo/tivofeatures/homemediafeatures/index.html

..which is quite a bit more than sky+ and saleable features too.

TCM2007

08-22-2007, 07:44 AM

Sky is a company that has raised the minimum cost of a subscription with it by 50% in the last two or three years.

.

2004: £13.50

2007: £15.00

Need a new calculator Pete?

TCM2007

08-22-2007, 07:47 AM

You sure? Those costs are factored into every device they sell. The pricing of the product contains an %age of those development costs. The money is paid up up front by the company, but it's a line on the balance sheet for years to come. Never ever would you call it a "free" solution.

To put it another way, do you honestly think that by Sky purchasing Amstrad development of Sky boxes is now free?

I would question how much of the V+ software is done by Virgin and how much is the built in Scientific Atlanta (?) software. If the latter, would they be able to buy the boxes significantly cheaper because they were going to install TiVo software on top of it? I doubt it.

I'm talking marginal costs here, not absolute.

(Software development for Sky is done not by Amstrad or by Sky but by NDS)

TCM2007

08-22-2007, 07:50 AM

It wouldn't be a series 1 though, it would have HMO as well:
http://www.tivo.com/whatistivo/tivofeatures/homemediafeatures/index.html

..which is quite a bit more than sky+ and saleable features too.

Interestingly Sky+ can do all that stuff too - streaming video around the house, downloading video to a portable player etc etc. I've seen it all working; Sky just haven't enabled the feature. You can bet if if Virgin ever added it, Sky would turn it on pretty quick.

katman

08-22-2007, 11:04 AM

Interestingly Sky+ can do all that stuff too - streaming video around the house, downloading video to a portable player etc etc. I've seen it all working; Sky just haven't enabled the feature. You can bet if if Virgin ever added it, Sky would turn it on pretty quick.Dont you mean $KY would ask for even more money to turn it on quickly. LOL

TCM2007

08-22-2007, 11:22 AM

True, but some of that is worth paying for - I'd slip them some cash to be able to watch the contents of any Sky+ box from any other in the house over my home network.

cleudo

08-22-2007, 01:41 PM

I see that TiVo aren't exhibiting at IBC in Amsterdam this year. Sounds like they didn't get the tie up with the PS3 after all....

mrtickle

08-22-2007, 03:55 PM

2004: £13.50

2007: £15.00

Need a new calculator Pete?

He may well do. Some more figures for the non-Sky+ subscription cost over the years:

2000: Value Pack was £7. "Family" pack was £13. Interim packages called "Popular Mix", "Knowledge", "Kids&Music" and "Lifestyle" were all £10 and all absurdly restrictive.
2001&2: Value Pack was £10. "Family" pack shot up to £16.
2003: Value Pack no change (IIRC). "Family" pack shot up to £18.50.
2004&5: Value Pack was £13.50. "Family" pack now a whopping £19.50.

Sep 2005: Value Pack, Interim packages, and "Family" pack all abolished. Both replaced by 2, 4, or 6 Mixes for £15/£18/£21 but NB: the old Value Pack only contained about 7 channels so it isn't really comparable with "2 mixes" (a minimum of 27 channels) other than by virtue of the fact that they are both the cheapest offering from Sky at the time.

Pete may have been comparing the 2003 £10 charge for the Value Pack with the 2006 charge of £15 for 2 mixes - that is a 50% increase in the minimum cost of subscribing to Sky satellite, and there are 3 years between 2003 and 2006.

HTH

Pete77

08-22-2007, 04:28 PM

Pete may have been comparing the 2003 £10 charge for the Value Pack with the 2006 charge of £15 for 2 mixes - that is a 50% increase in the minimum cost of subscribing to Sky satellite.

HTH

Indeed I was thinking along precisely the lines you mentioned above, although I seemed to remember a time when the Value pack was £11 per month but perhaps I was out by £1. I was also taking in to account the forthcoming hike in the price of 2 Mixes to £17 on September 1st, so definitely a 50% increase compared to the £11 in 2003 versus inflation of perhaps 12% compounded over the period.

Its an odd marketing strategy given the growing threat from Freeview Playback, although its clearly being done as a knee jerk reaction to stem revenue loss due to the number of Sky+ box owners who are downgrading from Movies and/or Sports to only 2 or 4 Mixes. But at the same time Sky cut the cost of their Freesat to a one off £75 and increase the cost of carrying on the sub after the free 6 months of 2 Mixes to £17, thus rather ensuring the Sky Pay Once Watch Forever crew will do just that.

In the long run I forecast big trouble for Sky's future revenue stream once the fact that Freeview Playback offers a system equvalent to Sky+ becomes known and also once the BBC launch their FTA HD satellite product, also no doubt combined with a PVR with Series Link facility.

TCM2007

08-22-2007, 04:44 PM

definitely a 50% increase compared to the £11 in 2003

Yes, but not in "two or three years"! Goalpost move.

Its an odd marketing strategy given the growing threat from Freeview Playback,

I guess it's growing in the very literal sense that it was zero a few months ago as it didn't exist and it does now. But I doubt any Murdochs are losing sleep over a new Freeview DVR.

although its clearly being done as a knee jerk reaction to stem revenue loss due to the number of Sky+ box owners who are downgrading from Movies and/or Sports to only 2 or 4 Mixes.

Maybe, but Sky's latest figures showed average revenue per customer was increasing not decreasing, suggesting that that trend is at best not pronounced.

In the long run I forecast big trouble for Sky's future revenue stream once the fact that Freeview Playback offers a system equvalent to Sky+ becomes known and also once the BBC launch their FTA HD satellite product, also no doubt combined with a PVR with Series Link facility.

It's not equivalent to Sky+, not because of its PVR functions but because it doesn't get the same channels. That element of Sky's business model remains untouched and (for now) untouchable - you want movies, live sport and US drama plus a hundred odd niche channels, you have to pay them. And no amount of Freeview Playback cleverness will change that.

It seems that roughly half the country want those extra progarmmes and half don't (or at least won't ever pay for them). What a competitor does in the "won't pay/don't want" half of the market is of supreme indifference to Sky and its financial success.

iankb

08-22-2007, 05:16 PM

I see that TiVo aren't exhibiting at IBC in Amsterdam this year. Sounds like they didn't get the tie up with the PS3 after all....Maybe something to do with "PlayStation to record digital TV (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6958233.stm)".

mrtickle

08-22-2007, 06:01 PM

Maybe something to do with "PlayStation to record digital TV (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6958233.stm)".

Oh, Tivo were at Leipzig instead of Amsterdam? ;)

mikerr

08-22-2007, 06:09 PM

Sony keep trying this, last time in 2003:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3170392.stm

The PSX bombed so wasn't released outside japan.

I still think a combined gaming and tv device is destined to fail (Conflicting uses).

A PVR that is networkable to share photos (card slot) music (dvd) & video across several TVs would take off today IMO, even a year ago would have been too early. Wireless would be even better...

I'm actually now being asked by the less tech savvy people for a solution to access all their photos and video across the house - I hesitate to recommend MCE +xbox360s, but its all there is currently, and that's only really any good for freeview.

EvilBoB

08-22-2007, 08:09 PM

I am pissed off with all this. I have TiVo and me and the missus couldn't live without it but now I have a 1080p plasma I want HDTV - where does that leave me? SkyHD? dammit!!

Guess I'm gonna have to move to the US :(

Pete77

08-23-2007, 12:53 AM

I am pissed off with all this. I have TiVo and me and the missus couldn't live without it but now I have a 1080p plasma I want HDTV - where does that leave me? SkyHD? dammit!!

Or the BBC's new HD Freesat service they are planning to launch some time next year.

So long as you don't need Sky Sports that may well be an alternative for you.

The box will probably include a PVR of some kind, although I doubt the software will be anywhere near as good as Tivo.

Pete77

08-23-2007, 01:06 AM

It's not equivalent to Sky+, not because of its PVR functions but because it doesn't get the same channels. That element of Sky's business model remains untouched and (for now) untouchable - you want movies, live sport and US drama plus a hundred odd niche channels, you have to pay them. And no amount of Freeview Playback cleverness will change that.

It seems that roughly half the country want those extra progarmmes and half don't (or at least won't ever pay for them). What a competitor does in the "won't pay/don't want" half of the market is of supreme indifference to Sky and its financial success.

Yes but the point is that the choice of channels you get for only paying a BBC licence fee is gradually getting a lot wider on all platforms.

While I agree that those who must have live premier football or live test cricket are still hooked in to Sky for everyone else there is now a wider range of non subscription options that still delivers a good variety of choice.

For instance as long as you are prepared to watch a movie that is a year or two old the range of free to air movies now available has vastly expanded for most non subscription tv viewers on Freesat and Freeview.

Also there are a lot of lower income households with kids earning say £15k to £20k per annum. Now they are expected to shell out £20 per month for broadband (unless they are prepared to suffer TalkTalk Narrowband that doesn't work most of the time) and £20 per month for Sky. One or the other may have to go to fit household budgets and I doubt that it will be the broadband.

mrtickle

08-23-2007, 12:34 PM

I'm actually now being asked by the less tech savvy people for a solution to access all their photos and video across the house - I hesitate to recommend MCE +xbox360s, but its all there is currently, and that's only really any good for freeview.

It's not all there is at all! Why not recommend a £30 xbox1 (not xbox360) which you could pick up from Ebay, running XBMC (http://www.xboxmediacenter.com/ ) ? I saw it running at a friend's house the other week and haven't been that impressed since the day I first saw TiVo running.

terryeden

08-23-2007, 01:17 PM

It's not all there is at all! Why not recommend a £30 xbox1 (not xbox360) which you could pick up from Ebay, running XBMC (http://www.xboxmediacenter.com/ ) ? I saw it running at a friend's house the other week and haven't been that impressed since the day I first saw TiVo running.

Seconded. It will also interface with a TiVo allowing you to upscale to 720p / 1080i.

Plays just about everything I've thrown at it apart from true HD files.

wonderboy

08-26-2007, 06:08 AM

Seconded. It will also interface with a TiVo allowing you to upscale to 720p / 1080i.

Plays just about everything I've thrown at it apart from true HD files.

I was looking at a way to upscale the Tivo output for my HD LCD (mode 0 works pretty well, but there's room for improvement).

Can you elaborate a bit more on how this works, and what additionally is required? I just ordered an XBOX with XBMC off ebay just to mess around with but I'd really like to get it working as an upscaler...

Thanks!

terryeden

08-26-2007, 10:07 AM

I was looking at a way to upscale the Tivo output for my HD LCD (mode 0 works pretty well, but there's room for improvement).

Can you elaborate a bit more on how this works, and what additionally is required? I just ordered an XBOX with XBMC off ebay just to mess around with but I'd really like to get it working as an upscaler...

Thanks!

Get the latest version of XBMC (I recommend http://bitspace.dyndns.org:6560/).

Get the official Hi Def pack (or a 3rd party).

Use to EVOX to set the BIOS of the Xbox to NTSC.

In the Xbox's menu, set the output to 720p (or 1080i).

Hey presto - the output of XBMC will be Hi Def.

Fiddle around in XBMC and any DVDs and videos will be played at hi def.

If you put the IP of your TiVo into the Video Source screen of XBMC and you get a list of the programmes on the TiVo. You can also get a python script which will make the interface a bit nicer.

This is a brief and scrappy version of what to do - let me know if you need any help.

T

wonderboy

08-26-2007, 10:56 AM

thanks, have just ordered the HD pak , will give this a try as soon as it arrives.

DeadKenny

08-27-2007, 09:24 AM

Only way TiVo could succeed in the UK now is if Ofcom were to force regulation that opens up the Sky platform, allowing 3rd party manufacturers to make boxes that can digitally receive Sky channels, in particular HD, legitimately without having to use Sky software.

That way we could easily have a TiVo HD box for Sky.

As a competing product though it would have a very hard time. Needs a huge investment in marketing and needs to be very cheap with no sub.

Really only way I could see that working is with a deal with a big brand name. Maybe Microsoft. e.g. with an open sat decoding system for Sky, perhaps something integrated into Vista's media stuff. Problem is Microsoft already have their own TiVo-like media product.

Freeview TiVo would only work without a sub, and even then very few people will really give a rats if it has TiVo in it or not. What sells with Freeview is if it's cheap and simple. If TiVo could flog a box for £50 in ASDA then maybe.

V+ is just too small an audience and besides knowing how VM (formerly NTL, formerly CabelTel. All the same company. All the same shockingly bad service) work, they'll find a way to make a pigs ear out of it even if they did get TiVo.

TCM2007

08-27-2007, 10:56 AM

Actually MS's product is actually better than TiVo...

Pete77

08-27-2007, 11:12 AM

Actually MS's product is actually better than TiVo...

Not if you need to watch subscription based Sky channels.

TCM2007

08-27-2007, 11:48 AM

It's about the same as TiVo for subs based Sky channels; better if you're prepared to take the risk on a DragonCam based system.

Pete77

08-27-2007, 12:09 PM

It's about the same as TiVo for subs based Sky channels

How is it the same? So far as I know there is no way to have your Sky Digibox interfaced with Windows MCE by Scart or HDMI outputs and channel instructions sent to the Sky Digibox box by IR leads?

Instead you just can't record the Sky subscription channels on MCE unless you take a risk on a Dragon Cam, which may then go wrong and never work again at any moment if Sky change the encryption system.

iankb

08-27-2007, 01:40 PM

How is it the same? So far as I know there is no way to have your Sky Digibox interfaced with Windows MCE by Scart or HDMI outputs and channel instructions sent to the Sky Digibox box by IR leads?When you buy the Microsoft IR receiver and remote control, it also comes with IR wands to control other STB's.

I haven't tried it, but I assume you would need to add a video capture card to receive the STB's output. May not be so easy to control more than one box, and I suspect that the CPU would need to handle compression when capturing video. I find a twin tuner Freeview card more than adequate, and a much better cost than Sky.

I have to agree with Stuart; that I find MCE a better solution than TiVo nowadays. The ability to handle multiple tuners, to distribute output via Xbox 360 extenders, and to handle my music library, more than outweighs the loss of wishlists.

TCM2007

08-27-2007, 01:41 PM

TCM2007

08-27-2007, 01:43 PM

more than outweighs the loss of wishlists.

What loss of wishlists?

TCM2007

08-27-2007, 01:47 PM

I suspect that the CPU would need to handle compression when capturing video. .

Pretty sure than the cards compress the video. Maybe it depends on the card.

Pete77

08-27-2007, 03:07 PM

But I suppose you can't customise the interface as we can with Tivoweb?

Speaking personally I have acquired a lot of specialist knowledge about the niche Tivo product that few other people in the UK have and I am very loathed to give that up before I have to if and when Tivo finally withdraw UK service. I particularly like the fact that having a Tivo in the UK means you can feel you belong to a privileged and exlusive elite of discerning TV viewers. Instead of the me too Sky+ and V+ worlds that everyone else now has.

Obviously when HD becomes widespread enough across the channels and Tivo pulls the UK service I will have to consider an MCE type solution. But for now I prefer to remain with Tivo as my main PC is a laptop and building another full time Windows MCE server would cost me several hundred quid plus electricity bills. In a single person household I do not find mainly watching on one tv a significant restriction (anyhow I have a video sender although signal quality is poor) and I am not in to my own recorded music collection (well I was in the day of the LP but that was a while ago) but only in to music on radio stations.

TCM2007

08-27-2007, 04:21 PM

But I suppose you can't customise the interface as we can with Tivoweb?

Yes, you can. You can write whatever plug ins and add ons you like.

WebGuide provides the remote web interface, which is the main TW function. Orb goes astep further and lets you view TV from your MCE PC from anywhere with a fast enough net connection.

But for now I prefer to remain with Tivo as my main PC is a laptop and building another full time Windows MCE server would cost me several hundred quid plus electricity bills. In a single person household I do not find mainly watching on one tv a significant restriction (anyhow I have a video sender although signal quality is poor) and I am not in to my own recorded music collection (well I was in the day of the LP but that was a while ago) but only in to music on radio stations.

So The Green Button will remain a Pete free zone for a while longer then. Shame. ;)

Pete77

08-27-2007, 04:35 PM

Yes, you can. You can write whatever plug ins and add ons you like.;)

Have you written any interesting ones yet?

TCM2007

08-27-2007, 06:39 PM

Did one to link iTunes to MCE; someone else produced a better one though. Most stuff is built in.

iankb

08-27-2007, 09:12 PM

WebGuide provides the remote web interface, which is the main TW function. Orb goes astep further and lets you view TV from your MCE PC from anywhere with a fast enough net connection.WebGuide lets you view your recordings and video remotely so you don't need Orb any more.

TCM2007

08-28-2007, 04:28 AM

WebGuide lets you view your recordings and video remotely so you don't need Orb any more.

Does Webguide re-encode? I thought it just streamed as-is.

Pete77

08-28-2007, 04:43 AM

Are Webguide and Orb Microsoft applications or third party applications and if so do you have to extra for the software over and above the cost of your license for Windows MCE?

iankb

08-28-2007, 07:23 AM

Does Webguide re-encode? I thought it just streamed as-is.You can choose from a variety of streaming speeds, so I assume that it re-encodes.

iankb

08-28-2007, 07:32 AM

Are Webguide and Orb Microsoft applications or third party applications and if so do you have to extra for the software over and above the cost of your license for Windows MCE?They're both third-party applications. Webguide is more integrated with MCE, while Orb is more of a separate product that happens to see MCE recordings.

Orb is free, and Webguide is a cheap but better alternative.

ColinYounger

08-28-2007, 11:52 AM

Pete77

08-28-2007, 12:02 PM

The underlying theme seems to be that MCE plus whatever is as good as TiVo if you're prepared to work at it. So, exactly like TiVo. :)

Its hard to imagine the phrases Microsoft and excellent or good quality in the same sentence but so it seems to be with Windows MCE and tv recording. Perhaps because Microsoft do not have an established name in this area they actually had to make an effort (unlike Sky who had the established name and so made no effort for their PVR).

Also the hallowed freeware is not always all its cracked up to be having recently moved from an admittedly outdated Microsoft Outlook 2000 (which stopped working reliably recently after something Microsoft did in a recent XP update made it regularly go off in to time delay when I was typing - a fault reported by lots of other XP users still using Outlook 2000.) to Mozilla Thunderbird 2.5.5

Now this is more flexible than Outlook 2000 but has an awful lot of ragged edges that would just not be acceptable in a commercial mail package these days. Its lack of decent support for partially copying a large block of recipients from one email to another is particuarly disappointing.

ColinYounger

08-28-2007, 12:08 PM

Pete - I'm not trying to turn this into a Microsoft rant. I'm genuinely interested in what the MCE folks think in relation to TiVo.

Outlook\Thunderbird discussions are not for here. ;)

TCM2007

08-28-2007, 12:31 PM

Just as an aside from an interested lurker...

The underlying theme seems to be that MCE plus whatever is as good as TiVo if you're prepared to work at it. So, exactly like TiVo. :)

My questions to MCE advocates are:

if TiVo returned, would you jump the MCE ship? Base your answer on current S3.

if the EPG service disappeared, would you continue with a community based solution (e.g. OzTiVo)?

No, I don't think I would. Partly because I've made the hardware investment, partly because I would be uncomfortable returning to a closed system. As well as being expansible though add-ins or just getting your programming hands dirty, at the end of the day I can always format the hard disk and run MythTV or one of the other solutions if I don't like the way Microsoft are going. S3 TiVos are much less hackable than our old S1s. I also like having my music, photos, and downloaded video availabel from one interface in every room with a TV, which i don't think even an S3 TiVo can match.

If the UK EPG died now, I would I'm afraid just consign my TiVos to the attic. :(

ColinYounger

08-28-2007, 12:41 PM

I hate to ask the question because you have (and continued through knowledge) to contribute so much here, but: Why are you here still?

NOTE: That sounds rude, but is not intended to be. I'm just being direct.

I admit I'm late in the day to TiVo, but it's brill for both WAF and my tinkering needs. I wish I was involved earlier when I'd be able to contribute much more as I constantly feel that I'm reinventing the wheel.

Ho hum.

Pete77

08-28-2007, 01:01 PM

I hate to ask the question because you have (and continued through knowledge) to contribute so much here, but: Why are you here still?

Surely because Windows MCE probably doesn't have a forum with such lively and interesting debates as this one? ;)

iankb

08-28-2007, 01:17 PM

if TiVo returned, would you jump the MCE ship? Base your answer on current S3.Not sure what's in the S3, but I would need multiple tuners, music, and distribution via a network. I had to give up using video senders with my TiVo because of interference from neighbours' networks.

Now I have too much invested in MCE to go back to just a TiVo-based solution. My TiVo now acts just as a backup to MCE.

if the EPG service disappeared, would you continue with a community based solution (e.g. OzTiVo)?Not with a working MCE setup.

I would mention that my original MCE machine failed, and my TiVo came back into instant use. But I did miss MCE.

Contrary to a certain person's view on Microsoft products, MCE is a well-designed product. The only thing that lets it down is poor guide data that means that you record every possible showing of most programmes.

Pete77

08-28-2007, 01:35 PM

Contrary to a certain person's view on Microsoft products, MCE is a well-designed product.

I clearly conceded that I accepted it was a well designed product.

I merely noted that this was something of a surprise given the poor reputation the same company long ago acquired for resource hungy and unreliable software in many of its products, most spectacularly and disastrously with Windows Me

ColinYounger

08-28-2007, 02:23 PM

Pete77

08-28-2007, 04:36 PM

Assuming that you're lifetime subscribers, at what point did you think that TiVo was of little enough value invest in something else? To clarify - when did TiVo become 'not of value'?.

Up to this point I have spent approximately £630 on my Tivo including Lifetime Sub and latter upgrade to 2 x 250Gb Samsung HA250JCs and Cachecard and RAM (I note that via an astute purchase on Ebay a similar set up can now be created for around £270 though). To go for some elaborate Windows MCE setup and X-Boxes would mean more than repeating that expenditure plus anoother £800 or so for a reasonable 37" Widescreen HDTV. At present with Tivo I think I would be worse off with an HDTV as it would show up imperfections in the Tivo picture I am currently happily ignorant of.

I am devoted currently to Tivo because I like the fact that by having it I am in a very elitist minority and it does everthing I want. Recorded music is not important to me as I am a radio listener and not a regular player of old recorded music. I have also acquired a stack of specialist knowledge about the product and its hacks that would all go in the dustbin if I moved away from it.

I can see getting an HDTV box as and when Formula 1 Grand Prix are in HD on ITV or if most of Ch1 to 5 are eventually in HD but I could still anticipate using the Tivo a lot and just using the HDTV box for live tv (which I watch more of than some people here).

In short I do not anticipate cessation of Tivo use as a main recording source until Tivo UK withdraws its UK service. Sadly by the time that happens I doubt that many of the serious hackers will be interested in providing a replacement guide for us. Although having said that Colin perhaps you could help us out on that score. ;) :up:

TCM2007

08-28-2007, 04:49 PM

Ian - the S3 does have multi-tuners, but as noted is more difficult to hack. In a way, a trick question as I knew that it was harder, but I know that TiVo seems 'hard' to most users because of it's Linux OS.

It's interesting that both you and TCM mention 'investment' in terms of your primary choice factor. Assuming that you're lifetime subscribers, at what point did you think that TiVo was of little enough value invest in something else? To clarify - when did TiVo become 'not of value'?

Secondly, in reflection of that, when would your MCE setup become 'not of value'. For example, if TiVo returned in two year's time would your current kit be 'not of value'?

NOTE: Re-reading my message I seem to be using emotive terms. I apologise. I'm tired. :( Please treat my questions as genuine rather than trying to bait.

I followed MCE for a while by virtue of publishing a magazine for early adopters of home automation, custom installs and the like. I took the plunge to actually buy one about two and a half years ago, mainly to see what the craic was; it was a home build. I even imported a first generation extender (and blew it up on the first day of using it, much to my mates' amusement). When second generation extenders came out, it seemed a no-brainer to upgrade the MCE PC and have a network of extenders, as this did what I'd been trying to hack together with a couple of TiVos but straight out of the box.

The final straw was when the CRT TV got eBayed and a 56-inch high-def set took its place. Mode 0 is good, but at that size a SD image needs all the help it can get and scaling witha HTPC gives nearly as good a result as an extremely expensive scaler.

I'm open minded to new solutions, but one thing both TiVo S1 and MCE have is the ability to add to and customise the system; I think the chances of a closed proprietorial system being able to meet my needs now I've had seven years of having things just-so is remote.

iankb

08-29-2007, 07:52 AM

It's interesting that both you and TCM mention 'investment' in terms of your primary choice factor. Assuming that you're lifetime subscribers, at what point did you think that TiVo was of little enough value invest in something else? To clarify - when did TiVo become 'not of value'?

Secondly, in reflection of that, when would your MCE setup become 'not of value'. For example, if TiVo returned in two year's time would your current kit be 'not of value'?I kind of fell into it when I decided to replace my Windows XP workstation with a new Vista Ultimate version. I built the new hardware but couldn't get Norton Ghost to boot into my new machine to restore a backup from my old machine. Given the Vista problems with application compatibility and poor driver support, I decided to run the two machines in parallel. So I decided to add a twin Freeview tuner to the Vista machine and try out MCE. And I was content.

Not happy with the the video senders, a separate music distribution system, and the inability to view downloaded video, I then bought two Xbox 360 extenders, and was even more content.

At the time, I still had a subscription to Sky, so was using the TiVo for films, plus one or two other subscription channels. When Sky introduced the PIN entry problem, I cancelled my Sky subscription and the TiVo became more of a backup.

Even if TiVo caught up with all of that, my investment in MCE extenders would probably stop me switching back.

In the long term, I see a software-based solution such as MCE on multi-purpose and incrementally-updateable hardware being far more future-proof than a proprietary solution such as TiVo.

Sneals2000

08-29-2007, 09:34 AM

When you buy the Microsoft IR receiver and remote control, it also comes with IR wands to control other STB's.

I haven't tried it, but I assume you would need to add a video capture card to receive the STB's output. May not be so easy to control more than one box, and I suspect that the CPU would need to handle compression when capturing video. I find a twin tuner Freeview card more than adequate, and a much better cost than Sky.

I have to agree with Stuart; that I find MCE a better solution than TiVo nowadays. The ability to handle multiple tuners, to distribute output via Xbox 360 extenders, and to handle my music library, more than outweighs the loss of wishlists.

Yep - you use the IR wands to control external cable or satellite set top boxes - and need an analogue capture card fed via composite or s-video. Quality is compromised as a result (and not as good as native DVB-T or Tivo connected RGB) Also - you can't mix platforms on MCE - you can't have a Sky set top box connected via analogue AND a digital tuner in the same installation, multiple platforms have to be on the same system (i.e. two Sky boxes + two analogue capture cards, dual Freeview cards, dual analogue terrestrial cards etc.)

(The US MCE is different and allows digital OTA and analogue OTA/Cable to co-exist in the same install)

I had Tivo and used it a lot for a long time. MCE and a 360 replaced it for about 2 years as my main viewing and timeshifting system - but Sky HD meant a move to Sky+ HD...

There is also a major problem with the current XBox 360 Media Center Extender implementation when using an HD display - as the output is permanently in 60Hz (apart from DVD replay via component which drops to 576/50p) - meaning Live TV, Recorded TV and streamed 50Hz HD MPEG2 is replayed with 10Hz motion judder at 60Hz. (News 24 and Sky News tickers look awful.) The annoying thing is that the Xbox 360 checks 50Hz HD compatibility during set-up...

It will be interesting to see how the PS3 with PlayTV (dual DVB-T tuners) works. The demo looks pretty impressive - and the PS3 already supports H264 HD off-air recording replay. (I've replayed BBC HD off-air recordings with no problems at all - and at 50Hz!)

TCM2007

08-29-2007, 10:22 AM

There is also a major problem with the current XBox 360 Media Center Extender implementation when using an HD display - as the output is permanently in 60Hz (apart from DVD replay via component which drops to 576/50p) - meaning Live TV, Recorded TV and streamed 50Hz HD MPEG2 is replayed with 10Hz motion judder at 60Hz. (News 24 and Sky News tickers look awful.) The annoying thing is that the Xbox 360 checks 50Hz HD compatibility during set-up...

Yes, I don't understand why they haven't fixed this. I ended up replacing the 360 in the living room with a 15m DVI cable and running the TV directly from the MCE PC (in the cupboard under the stairs). The other two run in to an SD LCD (which is therefore 50Hz) and a 19-inch HD LCD in the bedroom, where I can live with jerky titles.

mjk

08-29-2007, 01:03 PM

I'm not trying to turn this into a Microsoft rant. I'm genuinely interested in what the MCE folks think in relation to TiVo.

I'm running 2 TiVos and 2 MCE systems, in both cases one system is FreeView and the other is Sky.

Overall, I still prefer TiVo. The EPGs are essentially similar, with the glaring exception that the MCE Sky EPG is very slow to be updated with nee channel lineups, if at all. (They still list "No data available for some of the +1 channels, which is particularly irritating as you wouldn't think it was too hard to figure out.)

TiVo/Tribune do a much better EPG job than Microsoft/BDS. (As indeed does DigiGuide).

In terms of functionalioty, I find them pretty much equivalent.

I use the MCE systems in my home office on large IBM monitors, so I can't speak to the picture quality on TV screens.

Pete77

08-29-2007, 01:21 PM

mjk,

Its good to hear you feel that a Tivo still cuts the mustard for UK tv recording.

I think some of our forum members being ultimate techno geeks are simply afflicted by the bug of having to constantly switch and switch again to have whatever is the most recent new technology product.

But those of who have rather less money to spend observe that today's latest product will always become tomorrow's useless box gathering dust up in the loft..........

Getting Tivo was a huge advance on how I watched television in the past. Whereas moving to MCE would cost me a fortune and only make a very slight difference to the way that I watched television. Applying rational cost/benefit analysis principles it is a change that at the present time simply does not appear to be justified in my case.

TCM2007

08-29-2007, 03:00 PM

I think some of our forum members being ultimate techno geeks are simply afflicted by the bug of having to constantly switch and switch again to have whatever is the most recent new technology product.

Maybe, but MCE is a genuine step up in functionality from TiVo, however much you try to persuade yourself that things are better in 4:3 TiVo-based land. If your happy there then that's absolutely fine, but you do insist on telling everyone else what a waste of time and money widescreen/HD/dual tuners/plasma screens are, and how you can't imagine why anyone buys them. In fact you do so so volubly and often you have to conclude that you are in denial?

Raisltin Majere

08-29-2007, 03:17 PM

Maybe, but MCE is a genuine step up in functionality from TiVo,

Does it have all the functionality of tivo?

I understand it has season passes - do these persist over multiple season a la Tivo?

And wishlists? If so, are they as good as Tivo's?

Pete77

08-29-2007, 03:42 PM

Does it have all the functionality of tivo?

I understand it has season passes - do these persist over multiple season a la Tivo?

And wishlists? If so, are they as good as Tivo's?

Not to mention does it do advanced wishlists or suggestions or thumbs ratings that drive the suggestions engine........

Basically if you want to watch your recorded tv in every single room (I have no real need for that) then MCE is the way to go and if you must have HD then Sky HD is the way to go for now. But if you are content with watching tv in a single room in SD with the best range of PVR functions then a Tivo still makes sense.

Especially if you have a Lifetime Subscription. ;)

Pete77

08-29-2007, 03:48 PM

Maybe, but MCE is a genuine step up in functionality from TiVo, however much you try to persuade yourself that things are better in 4:3 TiVo-based land. If your happy there then that's absolutely fine, but you do insist on telling everyone else what a waste of time and money widescreen/HD/dual tuners/plasma screens are, and how you can't imagine why anyone buys them. In fact you do so so volubly and often you have to conclude that you are in denial?

If its so good then why not just rejoice in the fact that your own privileged financial position allows you to watch in HD while we impoverished plebs continue to reside in the Tivo SD slow lane. ;) :p

Presumably one of the reasons you also actually have to have Windows MCE is actually due to the prohibitive pricing of Sky HD for multiple tv support and also due to the huge loss of PVR functionality compared to a Tivo or Windows MCE. ;)

Or do you use a Dragon CAM with your Windows MCE setup? You never seem to have actually fully explained your position on that matter. Or are you worried that Uncle Rupert will send his copyright protection boys round to knock on your front door if you own up to this. ;) :p

Raisltin Majere

08-29-2007, 03:49 PM

Not to mention does it do advanced wishlists or suggestions or thumbs ratings that drive the suggestions engine........

Those things are nice but, for me, season passes that last forever and wishlists are the main features. I recall blindlemon told me how to make advanced wishlists fairly recently, but i haven't gotten around to trying it yet.

Especially if you have a Lifetime Subscription. ;)

Yeah, I think we both know the answer to that :)

TCM2007

08-29-2007, 04:00 PM

Does it have all the functionality of tivo?

I understand it has season passes - do these persist over multiple season a la Tivo?

And wishlists? If so, are they as good as Tivo's?

Actually season passes are better on MCE - you can choose to have them run on all channels not just one if you want, or limit their recordings to say the 9pm showing. There's a "Record only one per day" option.

Wishlists work in much the same way as TiVo, although when you set them up you can see what they will record updating "live" as you edit the keywords (which is a lot easier with a keyboard!).

TCM2007

08-29-2007, 04:03 PM

Not to mention does it do advanced wishlists or suggestions or thumbs ratings that drive the suggestions engine........

Advanced wishlists are OR and ABD one, yes? I can't remember, I'll have to check. Suggestions are TiVos worst feature. Not because they are bad, but because people leapt on their uselessness as a reson why tivo was crap.

Pete77

08-29-2007, 04:07 PM

Not because they are bad, but because people leapt on their uselessness as a reson why tivo was crap.

But if you understand them then they are still a useful extra feature.

I see its a no comment on whether you may use a Dragon CAM with your MCE setup. ;)

Raisltin Majere

08-29-2007, 04:07 PM

Actually season passes are better on MCE - you can choose to have them run on all channels not just one if you want, or limit their recordings to say the 9pm showing. There's a "Record only one per day" option.

And they last forever? e.g. if they stop Dr Who for another ten years (assuming it's still going) my tivo will get it when it comes back, would MCE?

Wishlists work in much the same way as TiVo, although when you set them up you can see what they will record updating "live" as you edit the keywords (which is a lot easier with a keyboard!).

I was suprised at this - having a keyboard - but you don't have yours by the TV, do you? So the setting up and ongoing configuring you do on your PC, which does all the recording and the 360's are purely networked receiving devices, is that right?

Do you have to "send" everything from the PC, or can the 360s send commands to the PC to change channel, browse now playing/EPG etc?

Pete77

08-29-2007, 04:10 PM

Actually season passes are better on MCE - you can choose to have them run on all channels not just one if you want, or limit their recordings to say the 9pm showing. There's a "Record only one per day" option.

What about MCE Season Passes not understanding the equivalent of the 28 day rule so just hoovering up the same program multiples times if it is frequently repeated (eg on National Geographic channel).

iankb

08-29-2007, 05:12 PM

MCE has some nice extras, such as being able to edit your season pass from a recording. Useful if you want to cancel a series after watching the first episode.

You can create a season pass by just pressing the record button twice when a programme is selected in the EPG.

It handles conflicts much better. If for instance, you are trying to record three programmes with two tuners, it pops up a conflict dialog where you can just toggle through which two programmes you want to record. Even better is that it doesn't forget the programme that it can't record. That is shown in the 'To Do' list, with a different icon against it.

It uses thumbnail video windows and semi-transparent menus, to enable you to view both picture and menus together.

The Xbox 360 extender gives you an almost identical experience to the MCE computer. The look and feel of the menus is identical, and there only minor differences with functions such as frame-by-frame slow motion, where the background control of the video stream probably restricts this.

The main PC and the extenders can choose to watch different programmes at the same time. If somebody starts watching a programme on one machine, then they can choose to stop it and continue from that point onwards on another machine. However, if two different viewers start viewing the same programme, then they will retain their own bookmarks. In that case, the first viewer will not be able to delete the programme until the second viewer chooses to delete it. It sounds a little confusing but works well in practice.

Pete77

08-29-2007, 05:22 PM

MCE has some nice extras, such as being able to edit your season pass from a recording. Useful if you want to cancel a series after watching the first episode............

This all sounds very nice but I still see no compelling reason to toss my Tivo away just yet because I have already spent the money on it, it still works and I feel loyal to the Tivo brand compared to the Sky brand or the Microsoft brands, neither of which inspire customer loyalty in me.

If I was starting today from a blank piece of paper then Windows MCE with dual tuners sounds a good option compared to either Sky+ or a dedicated but limited Freeview Playback box. Speaking of which will Windows MCE be able to support Freeview Playback functions such as its equvalent of PDC and its Series Link in due course. Or is MCE's own Metadata supplier already providing a better service on Series Link and program start/stop time linking than the one coming from the broadcasters (at present just the BBC)?

iankb

08-29-2007, 05:47 PM

This all sounds very nice but I still see no compelling reason to toss my Tivo away just yet because I have already spent the money on it, it still works and I feel loyal to the Tivo brand compared to the Sky brand or the Microsoft brands, neither of which inspire customer loyalty in me.I wouldn't expect you to change Pete. Your wish for a single tuner, single-room, TV-only setup is well served by a TiVo, and buying an MCE computer with Xbox360's is a significant investment.

I was simply answering somebody else's questions as to whether I would consider a Series 3 TiVo to be worth swapping back for, and your own belief that only TiVo can get things right.

... will Windows MCE be able to support Freeview Playback functions such as its equvalent of PDC and its Series Link in due course.No idea, but it is far more likely to than a Series 3 TiVo. :D

TCM2007

08-29-2007, 06:03 PM

But if you understand them then they are still a useful extra feature.

I see its a no comment on whether you may use a Dragon CAM with your MCE setup. ;)

No, just didn't notice the question. My MCE is Freeview based.

TCM2007

08-29-2007, 06:07 PM

And they last forever? e.g. if they stop Dr Who for another ten years (assuming it's still going) my tivo will get it when it comes back, would MCE?

Yes, they last forever.

I was suprised at this - having a keyboard - but you don't have yours by the TV, do you? So the setting up and ongoing configuring you do on your PC, which does all the recording and the 360's are purely networked receiving devices, is that right?

Do you have to "send" everything from the PC, or can the 360s send commands to the PC to change channel, browse now playing/EPG etc?

My setup is that the actual MCE PC drives my main TV (hence having a keyboard, with which I'm typing this).

The 360s offer the complete MCE interface; if you didn't know what you were looking for yiu wouldn't know it was an extender and not a direct connection. Of course with the extender you can't minimise the MCE window to type this while watching Newsnight!

TCM2007

08-29-2007, 06:11 PM

What about MCE Season Passes not understanding the equivalent of the 28 day rule so just hoovering up the same program multiples times if it is frequently repeated (eg on National Geographic channel).

It won't record duplicates, EPG permitting (like TiVo). I've not noticed if there is a 28-day rule (ie deleted programmes not re-recorded).

TCM2007

08-29-2007, 06:14 PM

Tpeaking of which will Windows MCE be able to support Freeview Playback functions such as its equvalent of PDC and its Series Link in due course. Or is MCE's own Metadata supplier already providing a better service on Series Link and program start/stop time linking than the one coming from the broadcasters (at present just the BBC)?

MCE is like Tivo - it downloads its own EPG. It doesn't look at any OTA EPG, so it won't support Freeview Playback.

Pete77

08-29-2007, 06:14 PM

I've not noticed if there is a 28-day rule (ie deleted programmes not re-recorded).

Actually I think it was the disadvantage of new channel launches being overlooked for long periods by MCE mentioned by mjk that is probably the more significant minus issue of the product.

Overall, I still prefer TiVo. The EPGs are essentially similar, with the glaring exception that the MCE Sky EPG is very slow to be updated with nee channel lineups, if at all. (They still list "No data available for some of the +1 channels, which is particularly irritating as you wouldn't think it was too hard to figure out.)

TiVo/Tribune do a much better EPG job than Microsoft/BDS. (As indeed does DigiGuide).

TCM2007

08-29-2007, 06:18 PM

Actually I've often wanted to be able to switch off the 28-day rule!

When you have two tuners, effectively unlimited storage space, and an equivalent of Now Playing that sorts alphabetically and puts episodes of a series in subfolders so each series only appears once, a couple of duplicates doesn't matter.

Pete77

08-29-2007, 06:21 PM

Actually I've often wanted to be able to switch off the 28-day rule!

And now you can for individual recordings thanks to the recently developed module by another Tivocommunity member.

TCM2007

08-29-2007, 06:23 PM

I thought that extended the 28-day rule, not eliminated it - or are you talking about something else?

Pete77

08-29-2007, 06:26 PM

I thought that extended the 28-day rule, not eliminated it - or are you talking about something else?

You can reduce the 28 day period down to nothing as well for a recording using that module if you want to.

TCM2007

08-29-2007, 06:38 PM

Didn't notice that function. Cool.

Sneals2000

08-29-2007, 08:11 PM

Yes, I don't understand why they haven't fixed this. I ended up replacing the 360 in the living room with a 15m DVI cable and running the TV directly from the MCE PC (in the cupboard under the stairs). The other two run in to an SD LCD (which is therefore 50Hz) and a 19-inch HD LCD in the bedroom, where I can live with jerky titles.

I've logged it with XBox Support - on a number of occasions - and with varying degrees of understanding of the issue. The best line came from someone trying to explain that my "HD Ready" display was called "HD Ready" because I needed to upgrade it to allow the XBox 360 to feed it in HD, and I must have been watching in SD, and had to be watching in 50Hz because there are no NTSC broadcasts in the UK so I was seeing something that wasn't really there... 'fraid that conversation went a bit downhill after that point - particularly when I pointed out I was an ex-broadcast R&D engineer and DID sort of know what I was talking about.

The guys in Ireland working on DVB aspects of XP/Vista Media Centre are also aware of it - but I don't know where the problem is. (Does the 360 or the MCE application control the resolution and frame rate?)

Can't believe they are shipping a high-end solution - combined with an HD-DVD player - that doesn't display broadcast TV in a watchable manner on HD TVs. Surely HDTV owners are going to be the most critical of poor picture quality...

TCM2007

08-30-2007, 08:20 AM

The guys in Ireland working on DVB aspects of XP/Vista Media Centre are also aware of it - but I don't know where the problem is. (Does the 360 or the MCE application control the resolution and frame rate?)

That's what I can't understand - the PC just sends raw MPEG 2 or WMV untouched so the 50-> 60Hz conversion must be happening in the 360 itself. It is actaully going out of its way to screw up the signal!

Sneals2000

08-31-2007, 08:13 AM

That's what I can't understand - the PC just sends raw MPEG 2 or WMV untouched so the 50-> 60Hz conversion must be happening in the 360 itself. It is actaully going out of its way to screw up the signal!

I wonder if the Media Center Extender software doesn't currently control the resolution/refresh rate and instead just runs at the default setting of the 360 Dashboard?

Therefore when you have a 50Hz RGB SD or Component 50Hz SD Dashboard you get 50Hz replayed at 50Hz, but when you have an HD Dashboard (running at 1080/60i or 720/60p) it just runs at 60Hz.

I don't think there is anything clever in the conversion - it is just replaying 50Hz video but into a video system running at 60Hz - so some frames get displayed twice... I don't think there is anything cleverer than this going on.

childe

09-03-2007, 09:50 AM

Only if it's not true; which (In my opinion) it is ;):p:D

I wonder which would have cost, for example, Telewest, more. Creating their own software for their new TV Drive or licensing Tivo's?

Carl - as I 've just posted on your petition, I am a former ntl:Telewest employee of 15 years, latterly in the IT project management team. I tried to influence the TV Drive development in its early stages but unfortuntately with no luck. I was told Tivo was dropped on the basis of cost, incompatibility with TWs interactive TV software and possibly the inability of their legacy STBs to support Tivo.

I was very very disappointed. I sat next to the PM of the project and so had the chance to play with early versions and drop helpful suggestions for useful additional functionality. When I got hold of one of the first pre launch models (during final pre-launch testing) I could not believe it had no programme search feature, never mind wishlists or suggestions. Basically they took the "safer" route of copying Sky+ and adding an extra tuner. In this day of timeshifted channels this extra tuner is of doubtful value, but they preferred that to the risk of relying on better software and possibly compromising what was once the jewel in their crown, interactive TV. The fact that virtually no-one uses interactive TV was irrelevant, unfortunately.

This was one of the causes of my disillusionment with the company after being such a long time champion of theirs, and I left soon afterwards. I would find it hard to recommend their TV service now, even though I am still a customer. But for how much longer???

Pete77

09-03-2007, 10:12 AM

childe,

Its good to hear what really went on at NTL over Tivo software with their TVDrive boxes from the horse's mouth so to speak.

Unfortunately the Machiavellian politics of the commercial world which often lead to the choice of the cheapest and most profitable solutions over the best quality solutions can be truly depressing. I believe it was the same with VHS and Betamax and of course the PC vs the Mac........................

Thank you very much indeed for sharing your insight on this matter with us.

TCM2007

09-03-2007, 10:27 AM

Unfortunately the Machiavellian politics of the commercial world which often lead to the choice of the cheapest and most profitable solutions over the best quality solutions can be truly depressing.

Businesses will ALWAYS go for the most profitable solution; no "Machiavellian politics" required - it's how the world works!

Pete77

09-03-2007, 10:51 AM

Businesses will ALWAYS go for the most profitable solution; no "Machiavellian politics" required - it's how the world works!

I'm certainly pleased that I don't fly with your airline and the dodgy illegal third world brake pads you will no doubt have fitted in order to cut costs.

In reality businesses will also always take into account whether the solution supplied is of an acceptable quality for meeting the expectations of their customers and also whether it is actually cheapest in terms of other factors such as the cost of support calls that an inadequate but cheaper solution may generate.

Still perhaps as one in the printing trade you do not have to consider such more complex factors although I would have thought that rather unlikely.

For instance is taking your broadband connection from TalkTalk actually the most logical thing to do if you then find you have a connection that is unusable most of the time!!

TCM2007

09-03-2007, 11:04 AM

You were the one who equated "cheapest" with "most profitable", not me!

ColinYounger

09-03-2007, 11:22 AM

Pete - I'm fascinated by your complaints about economics, when you have said in the past you have a qualification in it.

Customers are not the most important factor to a publicly owned company. The shareholders are. Which means profit comes a second. Which means cost control comes third. The savvy customer - of which I think you strive to be - knows this and tries to find the best (i.e. cheapest) deal for the most 'features'. The company does the opposite :) but I don't need to teach you to suck eggs.

Slagging off companies that successfully sell a pig in a poke is flogging a dead horse, IMO (must.... fit.... one... more... metaphor...) and you're blowing in the wind.

Wouldn't your research and fact retention skills be better employed providing us with details of the better deals available rather than the criticism of the (IYO) duff deals?

In other words - Be Positive!

I'm off to lie down and rest my metaphor generator.

cwaring

09-03-2007, 12:13 PM

childe, Thank you very much indeed for sharing your insight on this matter with us.
Seconded. Thanks, childe :)

Pete77

09-03-2007, 12:28 PM

You were the one who equated "cheapest" with "most profitable", not me!

Then I'm surprised that you believe it is absolutely inevitable that Virgin Media will not use Tivo software.

After all it may be the most profitable solution on the bottom line (due to more and happier customers) even though the actual cost of sourcing the software is higher than the rubbish they are currently using.

Pete77

09-03-2007, 12:36 PM

Wouldn't your research and fact retention skills be better employed providing us with details of the better deals available rather than the criticism of the (IYO) duff deals?

The majority of theoretical economics is a pile of irrelevant rubbish because it is based on the assumption of a perfect supply of information and no imperfections in the marketplace.

For instance using my research skills I can try all I like to find a better deal on 084 and 087 numbers but there isn't one because the whole industry is an anti-competitive cartel based on misselling to the consumer that a hijacked regulator fails to do anything about.

The pay tv marketplace is much the same with Sky and NTL controlling most of it and so not having to make an effort to offer a decent product in terms of set top boxes.

Whereas if we look at the FTA multi channel marketplace where the spec of the set top boxes is not under the tight control of a duopoly then a multiplicity of solutions is available.

I only have faith in the market where markets are properly competitive and sadly that is often the minority of the time, even in supposedly free trade Britain. Where the market is not perfect there needs to be regulatory intervention to correct matters but sadly many uk regulators are hijacked by commercial interests and so not working in the best interests of UK citizen consumers.

cwaring

09-03-2007, 01:57 PM

For instance using my research skills I can try all I like to find a better deal on 084 and 087 numbers but there isn't one because the whole industry is an anti-competitive cartel based on misselling to the consumer that a hijacked regulator fails to do anything about.
I'm not sure that's entirely fair/correct. You have to remember that 084/087 numbers were brought in when call costs were still charged at different rates for local, regional and national calls (or at least local and national anyway!) Under that system the 084/087 number were (or at least may have been, I don't really remember the details that far back ;)) reaonable value.

I do agree that in these modern time, the system is due for an over-haul and I believe that the regulator is working on that with the introduction of 03 numbers (http://www.ofcom.org.uk/media/news/2007/02/nr_20070213b) next year.

The pay tv marketplace is much the same with Sky and NTL controlling most of it and so not having to make an effort to offer a decent product in terms of set top boxes.
Firstly, a polite reminder that NTL no-longer exists :) Secondly, there's nothing wrong (IMO) with my Virgin Media Samsung STB. I can't speak of the Sky ones as I have no experience of them.

Whereas if we look at the FTA multi channel marketplace where the spec of the set top boxes is not under the tight control of a duopoly then a multiplicity of solutions is available.
And don't they all do pretty-much the same thing? I don't get your point :confused:

Pete77

09-03-2007, 03:00 PM

I do agree that in these modern time, the system is due for an over-haul and I believe that the regulator is working on that with the introduction of 03 numbers (http://www.ofcom.org.uk/media/news/2007/02/nr_20070213b) next year.

03 will only be used by a few good boys like John Lewis or the odd government department. The ripoff merchants will be shifting in their hordes from 0870 to either 5p per minute at all times 0844 numbers or 10p per minute at all times 0871 numbers. The hidden costs killer is (a) exclusion from inclusive calling plans and (b) no limit on the length of call queues. Ofcom only wanted to appear to be seen to be doing something about it while actually making 0870 calls even more expensive by making most of its current users shift to 10p per minute at all times 0871. Ofcom has meetings at the NTS Focus Group with the telecoms industry from which mere citizen consumers are completely excluded. :eek: :mad: :down: :down: :down:

And don't they all do pretty-much the same thing? I don't get your point :confused:

Freeview Playback boxes will soon offer Series Link and PDC like program time start linking with dual tuners all for no subscription fee, unlike Sky. Not to mention the BBC's HDTV box with probable Freeview Playback like Series Link, digital equivalent of PDC, dual tuners and HD all for no monthly subscription fee. Coming some time in 2008.

Now I can't see Sky or NTL coming up with all this for no subscription fee. ;) :rolleyes:

cwaring

09-03-2007, 05:11 PM

03 will only be used by a few good boys like John Lewis or the odd government department. The ripoff merchants will be shifting in their hordes from 0870 to either 5p per minute at all times 0844 numbers or 10p per minute at all times 0871 numbers.
While you're predicting the future, can I have next week's lottery numbers please :rolleyes: :)

Freeview Playback boxes will soon offer Series Link and PDC like program time start linking with dual tuners all for no subscription fee, unlike Sky. Not to mention the BBC's HDTV box with probable Freeview Playback like Series Link, digital equivalent of PDC, dual tuners and HD all for no monthly subscription fee. Coming some time in 2008.

Now I can't see Sky or NTL coming up with all this for no subscription fee. ;) :rolleyes:
VIRGIN MEDIA's V+ Box already does Series Link, as does Sky+. I know Sky charge extra for their HD service, but VM don't at present. (Okay, that's probably 'cos there isn't much of it at the moment, but that's not the point ;)) VM's box has triple-tuners. So that's all the features you mention already here.

Of course, the main point is that both Sky and Cable's businesses are built on the monthly subscription model so that's kinda a stupid arghument anyway :rolleyes:

Pete77

09-03-2007, 05:20 PM

While you're predicting the future, can I have next week's lottery numbers please :rolleyes: :)

Dixons group have just announced all their 0870 numbers are to change to 0844. A load of 0870 travel company users have already moved from 0870 to 0871. It hardly requires a crystal ball does it.

Almost nobody who uses 0870 is going to stay on it when instead of getting a revenue share cut they are now going to be asked to pay a fee on each incoming call they receive. I expect the BBC (in reality Capita Money Grabbers Inc who run their call centres for them) will move to 0844 numbers and try and con us in to believing that they are local rate, even when they are not.

What should have happened is that 084 and 087 were closed down after suitable advance notice and companies were forced to either get an 03 number charged at normal call rates to callers (with they the company paying for the privilege of the elaborate call routing and call stats features rather than their callers) or an 09 number on which they get a revenue cut and that everyone knows and understands as being a premium rate number involving a payment to the called party.

But no Ofcom fudged their so called changes so as not to stop a cosy little arrangement for their telco industry chums from being brought to an end.

TCM2007

09-03-2007, 06:20 PM

Then I'm surprised that you believe it is absolutely inevitable that Virgin Media will not use Tivo software.

After all it may be the most profitable solution on the bottom line (due to more and happier customers) even though the actual cost of sourcing the software is higher than the rubbish they are currently using.

I think you massively overrate the effect of an interface if you think it would make any significant difference to customer retention in this particular case. I'm fairly confident that little of Sky+'s churn is due to its software.

TCM2007

09-03-2007, 06:22 PM

T

Whereas if we look at the FTA multi channel marketplace where the spec of the set top boxes is not under the tight control of a duopoly then a multiplicity of solutions is available.

If you look at most FTA STBs, you'd rapidly reach the conclusion that Sky+ was a pargon of great design!

TCM2007

09-03-2007, 06:29 PM

Dixons group have just announced all their 0870 numbers are to change to 0844. A load of 0870 travel company users have already moved from 0870 to 0871. It hardly requires a crystal ball does it.

Almost nobody who uses 0870 is going to stay on it when instead of getting a revenue share cut they are now going to be asked to pay a fee on each incoming call they receive. I expect the BBC (in reality Capita Money Grabbers Inc who run their call centres for them) will move to 0844 numbers and try and con us in to believing that they are local rate, even when they are not.

What should have happened is that 084 and 087 were closed down after suitable advance notice and companies were forced to either get an 03 number charged at normal call rates to callers (with they the company paying for the privilege of the elaborate call routing and call stats features rather than their callers) or an 09 number on which they get a revenue cut and that everyone knows and understands as being a premium rate number involving a payment to the called party.

But no Ofcom fudged their so called changes so as not to stop a cosy little arrangement for their telco industry chums from being brought to an end.

Must confess I don't see the problem. 09 numbers are for charge-by-making-a-call, 087 numbers give some revenue to the callee but the rates are so low that it's hardly material unless you stay on the line for hours. Wasn't so long a go that 10p a minute would have been considered a bargain for any call!

Pete77

09-03-2007, 06:29 PM

I'm fairly confident that little of Sky+'s churn is due to its software.

That is only because (a) most of its customers know no better in terms of there being other available PVR solutions and (b) the entrenched near monopolist pay tv supplier (in many non urban parts of the UK) does not permit their customers a choice of PVR software interface.

I believe even Aeroflot was rather popular in the days when you could not take a flight with anyone else in the old USSR.

If the interface is so unimportant they why has the Iplayer been so popular?

TCM2007

09-03-2007, 06:31 PM

That is only because (a) most of its customers know no better in terms of there being other available PVR solutions and (b) the entrenched near monopolist pay tv supplier (in many non urban parts of the UK) does not permit their customers a choice of PVR software interface.

Quite true, but equally true in Virgin media's case. Which is why it's not worth them spending any money on adopting the TiVo interface.

If the interface is so unimportant they why has the Iplayer been so popular?

What's an iPlayer?

Pete77

09-03-2007, 06:32 PM

Must confess I don't see the problem. 09 numbers are for charge-by-making-a-call, 087 numbers give some revenue to the callee but the rates are so low that it's hardly material unless you stay on the line for hours.!

£4 per hour versus zero p per hour to speak to a company's customer service department. Sounds pretty material to me.

Perhaps you should check what percentage of your home phone bill currently consists of calls to 084 and 087 phone numbers. I would call an average £100 a year extra on most domestic phone bills that would not have been paid had the number begun 01 or 02 pretty material myself.

Pete77

09-03-2007, 06:37 PM

What's an iPlayer?

A Freeview box made by Netgem or apparently the BBC's new IPTV watch again service, assuming that they feel have big enough pockets not to mind being sued by their French neighbours for breach of Trademark.

It was of course an IPod that I meant to refer to your honour. But you must understand that being an aged old crock and a non music fanatic I do not own one of the aforesaid IPod devices myself.

TCM2007

09-03-2007, 06:41 PM

Struggling to think of the last time I was on the phone to anyone for more than 10 minutes. Is free better? Yes. Is charged at low rate bad? No.

Checked my last two quarter's bills and the price of 08... calls came to about £1 over the last six months.

TCM2007

09-03-2007, 06:45 PM

It was of course an IPod that I meant to refer to your honour. But you must understand that being an aged old crock and a non music fanatic I do not own one of the aforesaid IPod devices myself.

People say they bought an iPod because of the interface. that's nonsense; they bought them because they were stylish, desirable must-have gadgets. But that makes them sound shallow trend followers, so they say it's about the interface...