Mythbusters 8/8/2007 - Baseball Myths

[heySkippy]

I'm surprised there's no thread, this was a very fun episode! Watching Roger Clemens in super slo-mo was quite entertaining.

I would not have predicted the outcome with the corked bat. Half as fast? Surely MLB teams and players have done their own experiments over the decades. Why would anyone use one if that's the case? The only thing I thought of is they should have swung the corked bat faster to reflect real life, but I don't think that would have made up the difference.

Sliding in to plate, not surprising. Humid balls, not surprising. But nice in both cases to see the results quantified.

I loved the 400 mph fastball. :)

[TriBruin]

I'm surprised there's no thread, this was a very fun episode! Watching Roger Clemens in super slo-mo was quite entertaining.

I would not have predicted the outcome with the corked bat. Half as fast? Surely MLB teams and players have done their own experiments over the decades. Why would anyone use one if that's the case? The only thing I thought of is they should have swung the corked bat faster to reflect real life, but I don't think that would have made up the difference.

Sliding in to plate, not surprising. Humid balls, not surprising. But nice in both cases to see the results quantified.

I loved the 400 mph fastball. :)

My biggest problem is how they classified "Humid Ball" as probable and "Sliding" as Confirmed. With the humid ball, the design crew did a good job of eliminating pretty much all outside factors and there was a clear difference (in two different tests). However, with sliding, there was alway going to be the human factor during the run. It would be nearly impossible to run EXACTLY the same speed each time. I would have reveresed the classifications of those two myths.

[Llwellyn]

The first thing I thought when they swing the corked bat was "Why didn't they have Adam swing the corked bat and clock that too?"

If the corked bat is only transferring half the energy to the ball at the same speed, then it must weigh a lot less, therefore the same person swinging the bat should be able to swing it a lot faster. They pretty much ignored that fact entirely and didn't even bring it up.

Also, "corking" doesn't necessarily mean with cork, I believe it refers to any altering the composition of the bat in a manner consistent with corking. There are some very nice composite materials now that would have the same rough density as cork but would affect the energy transfer of the bat in a very different way.

That also does bring up the good point that someone who is using a corked bat should have instantly been able to tell that it wasn't nearly as effective... there must be another dimension to that particular effect that wasn't quantified.

[pdhenry]

I was disappointed that they didn't test a pine tar bat as long as they had the setup. Pine tar prolongs the ball-bat contact and (in theory) imparts more KE to the ball.

[IJustLikeTivo]

I was disappointed that they didn't test a pine tar bat as long as they had the setup. Pine tar prolongs the ball-bat contact and (in theory) imparts more KE to the ball.

Totally ridiculous concept. The only possible thing that might affect the KE is the coefficient of restitution which is how much compression of the bat is converted back into energy. Given the density of ash, I have to think that's just about nil. It's pretty much just about the speed and mass of the bat, nothing else matters much.

[billboard_NE]

They could have also tested the spit ball, or vaseline ball with their batting set-up. Why on earth did they not have real ball players do the slide into base test?

[IJustLikeTivo]

The first thing I thought when they swing the corked bat was "Why didn't they have Adam swing the corked bat and clock that too?"

If the corked bat is only transferring half the energy to the ball at the same speed, then it must weigh a lot less, therefore the same person swinging the bat should be able to swing it a lot faster. They pretty much ignored that fact entirely and didn't even bring it up.

Correct. The way they should have done it was apply a fixed amount of torgue to the bat which would be trivial using a weight and a lever. Then is the bat had a lower moment, it would move faster. Nonethless, regardless, the same torgue will move the same amount of inertial moment. Less weight = more speed but the energy transfer should be more or less the same since you have more speed but less mass.

Still, it would have been easy to demonstrate that.

[Globular]

I would have liked to see superballs used instead of cork. That's a common(?) variant of the theme.

[Globular]

I also wanted to see if it's faster to run through the bag to first as opposed to sliding into first. That's the common wisdom.

[heySkippy]

I have no doubt it's faster to run through the bag versus sliding at first base. Seems to me the only reason to slide either there or at home is to go under the tag.

[pdhenry]

Totally ridiculous concept. So you agree that it should have been tested. At least there wouldn't be an unaccounted change in the bat speed (they were very careful to note that the corked bat was swinging at the same speed as the unaltered one).

[mrmike]

Correct. The way they should have done it was apply a fixed amount of torgue to the bat which would be trivial using a weight and a lever. Then is the bat had a lower moment, it would move faster. Nonethless, regardless, the same torgue will move the same amount of inertial moment. Less weight = more speed but the energy transfer should be more or less the same since you have more speed but less mass.

Still, it would have been easy to demonstrate that.

Didn't they do that? Fixed volume at fixed pressure in a pneumatic cylinder? I saw no mention that they changed the setup with the corked bat to maintain bat speed equivalence with the uncorked one. Maybe I missed it. [edit: pdhenry says I did. I'll have to rewatch it tonight].

[minckster]

It would have been nice to have seen The Rocket predict which myths would be confirmed and comment on them. I was really hoping that he'd show up with the "wind tunnel" scientist and discuss the effect of rotation on the ball's flight. (OK, it wasn't wind. What do I mean to say?)

Does anyone think they may have missed something on the possibility of a rising fastball?

[SeanC]

Does anyone think they may have missed something on the possibility of a rising fastball?

Yes, a headwind. Not that I know whether or not it would make enough of a difference in lift but their calculations seemed to be only about a ball moving through static air.

[JDHutt25]

I have no doubt it's faster to run through the bag versus sliding at first base. Seems to me the only reason to slide either there or at home is to go under the tag.

That is the only logical reason to slide into first. Doesn't stop guys from doing it all willy nilly though.

[pdhenry]

[edit: pdhenry says I did. I'll have to rewatch it tonight].I just remember that they kept saying the bat speed was the same. They didn't show any overt indication that the speeds were actually the same.

[sean67854]

I just remember that they kept saying the bat speed was the same. They didn't show any overt indication that the speeds were actually the same.


My memory says that they did say that the bat speed was the same but in the high speed shots it shows that the corked bat is farther in the rotation at the point it contacts the ball on almost every shot they showed.

My guess is what they meant to say is that they had the same pressure set up for both bats.

I would also guess that this will fodder for a future myths revisited episode.

[kdmorse]

As far as I'm concerned, their entire premise with the corked bat was flawed.

I have *never* heard that corking a bat allows the batter to apply more power to the ball. I've always heard that it was done to make the bat lighter, to make the swing faster, and more accurate. There is (or so the myth says) a significant difference in the speed at which a real batter can swing a lightened bat, allowing him to wait slightly longer to begin his swing, get a better bearing on the ball, and increase his hit rate. (After all, it doesn't matter how hard the ball would bounce off the bat, if you miss the ball).

You end up with increased swing speed, decreased transfer of energy (which come close to canceling each other out), and more hits.

Or at least, that's what I had always read...

-Ken

[sean67854]

As far as I'm concerned, their entire premise with the corked bat was flawed.

I have *never* heard that corking a bat allows the batter to apply more power to the ball. I've always heard that it was done to make the bat lighter, to make the swing faster, and more accurate. There is (or so the myth says) a significant difference in the speed at which a real batter can swing a lightened bat, allowing him to wait slightly longer to begin his swing, get a better bearing on the ball, and increase his hit rate. (After all, it doesn't matter how hard the ball would bounce off the bat, if you miss the ball).

You end up with increased swing speed, decreased transfer of energy (which come close to canceling each other out), and more hits.

Or at least, that's what I had always read...

-Ken

That's what I always thought too, but they also made a point on the show to say that there is nothing keeping hitters from using lighter bats.

In fact I just heard yesterday that Barry Bonds has been using lighter bats lately.

[MassD]

Yes, a headwind. Not that I know whether or not it would make enough of a difference in lift but their calculations seemed to be only about a ball moving through static air.

Sure, a headwind will increase lift... but it would most likely have to be one hell of a headwind to double the lift (like they said, a fastball only generated 1/2 the ball's weight in lift).

Doing quick math in my head, for a 90mph fastball to rise, you'd need a 40mph headwind, which could happen... just not in a modern baseball stadium.

Yes... I know... geek factor of 10 on that one.

[stalemate]

I have no doubt it's faster to run through the bag versus sliding at first base. Seems to me the only reason to slide either there or at home is to go under the tag.There is another reason to slide into 2nd or 3rd. If you go past the bag you can get tagged out. You can approach the bag much faster if you run and then slide allowing the bag and the ground to stop your momentum.

If you try to go in standing up, you have to slow down a lot more to keep from running past it.

This is not an issue when running to 1st or Home Plate because you can run right on past them without risking getting tagged out. Well, unless you turn into fair territory when you go past 1st. :)

EDIT: I totally misread your post. You are probably like "Duh!" right now lol

[markb]

That's what I always thought too, but they also made a point on the show to say that there is nothing keeping hitters from using lighter bats.

In fact I just heard yesterday that Barry Bonds has been using lighter bats lately.

That's another thing. Why didn't they test a non-corked bat that weighed the same as the corked bat? I think think they totally blew it when testing this myth.

[midas]

That's what I always thought too, but they also made a point on the show to say that there is nothing keeping hitters from using lighter bats.


But how small would the lighter bat be? A smaller, lighter bat would have a much smaller barrel and be much harder to hit the ball with, or it would be much shorter and thus not generate the same speed.

Honestly I haven't finished watching the show, so this might have been covered. But in addition to what kdmorse said, there is also the issue of velocity off the bat. I don't know if that was covered, but it makes a huge difference in getting the ball past the infielders.

[scottykempf]

"Dry Balls Vs. Humid Balls." LOL

[midas]

Totally ridiculous concept. The only possible thing that might affect the KE is the coefficient of restitution which is how much compression of the bat is converted back into energy. Given the density of ash, I have to think that's just about nil. It's pretty much just about the speed and mass of the bat, nothing else matters much.

Actually I think coefficient of restitution (C.O.R.) is where this experiment really breaks down. As mentioned earlier, I have a problem with the fact that they didn't increase bat speed to compensate for the lighter weight. But many experiments have been done in the golf world regarding C.O.R., often referred to as the trampoline effect. It's a real factor, so much so that the U.S.G.A has rules to limit the C.O.R..

The problem with this is that club head speed has a big impact on whether C.O.R. makes any difference. For the average golfer with a sub 100 mph swing speed C.O.R. will have little if any effect. But put that club in the hand of a pro with a 130+ mph swing and it's a major factor.

And that's the problem with this, Adam is far from a world class athlete. His swing speed was pathetic at best. And the pitching cannon they used barely got up to the speed of a mediocre curve ball. They called 80 mph 'rocketing'. Heck, that's barely a changeup. And what was the difference between a pro and Adam as regards to swing speed.

While only anecdotal, Clemens claimed that the speed of the ball coming off the bat in-game had been clocked at over 130 mph when his pitch speed was only 95 mph. Yet during this experiment they best speed off the bat just equaled the pitch speed.

So all they really proved is that a corked bat would have a negative impact on a little league game.

[PopcornGuy]

"Corked Bat" left so many variables out. This myth needs to be revisited. A MLB bat is made from one solid piece of wood. The weight distribution by this standard is therefore similar for all bats. By corking a bat, the barrel becomes much lighter allowing it to be swung faster by the same person. Facing 90+ MPH pitching, this faster swing gives the batter a little more critical reaction time to hit the ball. There is probably a slight advantage all things considered.

My conspiracy theory...
Mythbusters wanted a big league pitcher to appear on the show. MLB arranged for Clemens to appear in exchange for some control over what was revealed in the tests. Remember, at the start of the corked bat test it was said that MLB did not want shown how to cork a bat. Knowing they busted the myth and that it was determined that corking a bat had negative results there should have been no reason to hide the process of corking the bat.

Yes, it would have been nice if Roger Clemens or other players were involved in the entire show. The Mythbusters went on location for the Roger Clemens segment. It was likely filmed in mid-May this year when the Rocket was pitching in Tampa, FL going toward his comeback to the majors. The segment was filmed at Tinker Field in Orlando, FL. The big concrete structure in the background is the Citrus Bowl.

[marksman]

I have not watched the whole show, just the beginning, but I alway get a little skeptical when they delve into sports stuff, just because I don't think there are whole lot of sports fans there.

Then when the announcer was talking about something or other earlier on, when talking about Sammy Sosa being suspended for 7 "MATCHES".

What the heck is a baseball match?

My ears immediately started bleeding.

[MasterOfPuppets]

Yeah...baseball match...Jaime saying that a standard Clemens pitch is about 80mph...not a whole lot of baseball fans running around.
I thought the humid balls thing was a waste of time, all you'd really need to do is compare stats at Coors Field when it opened to how it is now, or watch one of the countless bits on their humidor.

I don't think it's be possible to get a strong enough headwind at any stadium other than maybe a little league stadium to get the lift for a rising fastball. The stands, backstop and fans would block it out elsewhere.

[pdhenry]

I think"rising" is a relative term. If it sinks noticeably less than gravity alone would cause, it could be perceived by a hitter as rising.

"Baseball match" is just the Aussie narration/writing showing, I think. Or whatever the narrator is.

[dbranco]

"Dry Balls Vs. Humid Balls." LOL

The outtakes from that scene must be pretty funny

[vertigo235]

Baseball question (I'm not a fan)

If you are running to base and someone throws the ball to the person at that base, can you "knock" the ball down to prevent them from catching it? Or if you do this are you out?

If so, is it against the rules to throw the ball AT the runner? :D

[LoadStar]

Baseball question (I'm not a fan)

If you are running to base and someone throws the ball to the person at that base, can you "knock" the ball down to prevent them from catching it? Or if you do this are you out?
I don't have the rule right in front of me, but I believe any action that would be considered "unnatural" to the action of running the base path would be considered interference and you would be out.

For instance, a "hard slide" into the base that knocks the ball free from the baseman's glove would be OK - but deliberately running into the baseman to try and free the ball (particularly if it requires going outside the base path) is not OK.

ETA: 7.08(b): "Any runner is out when:"... "He intentionally interferes with a thrown ball; or hinders a fielder attempting to make a play on a batted ball"

[vertigo235]

I figured that was the case. Thanks for comfirming.

[BuckAv]

Such a play is what led to this somewhat famous photoshop:

http://cache.boston.com/images/bostondirtdogs/Headline_Archives/arodpurse.jpg

[marksman]

Yeah it is interference.

A runner is in play but they can't go out of their way to interfere with the ball.

Now there is an exception to the rule Loadstart cited above.

You can run into the catcher and attempt to get him to drop the ball or not catch it, when he is at home plate.

[spciesla]

If you're interested in the subject, check out "The Physics of Baseball". Pretty short paper-back that covers corked bats, rising pitches, curveballs, etc. from a truly scienctific viewpoint, unlike Mythbusters psudeo-science.

http://www.amazon.com/Physics-Baseball-3rd-Robert-Adair/dp/0060084367/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-7721904-5959951?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1186974946&sr=8-1

[snowjay]

There may have been some issues with the myths tested, but I just enjoyed watching the Rocket pitch. I wish they showed more!

I remember going to Fenway to watch him pitch back in the day.

[mattack]

Sliding in to plate, not surprising.

I'm not a sports expert(*), but this surprised the heck out of me. I would've thought "the contact with the ground would slow you down way more than the runner naturally slowing down", but now it makes sense this way.

(*) Actually, I'd probably be considered a sports hater.. except for much of the Olympics, often the Little League World Series (did I miss it this year?), and the Hawaii Ironman Triathlon.. I don't watch any of the 'regular' sports (LLWS is the exception), though baseball is the one I'd be most likely to watch if I did watch one. Though watching poker on TV has given me an appreciation for how some people watch golf on TV. I can understand how some people think poker on TV is boring as dirt, but I like _almost_ all poker shows.