Is lack of two way cable cards (no PPV, no VOD, no Grid) keeping you from buying a S3

[Rebate_King]

It does bother me that I will be losing some great features if I get a S3 unit and use cable cards. I like having video on demand at my finger tips.

Does this bother you also? and is it holding you back from ditching your cable box for a S3 unit?

[Saturn]

Amazon Unbox is sufficient for the Movies on Demand we used to occasionally use with the cable box. And we could still technically use the cable box, but I gave it back to the cable company thinking it would lower my bill (it didn't.) Oh well.

Never used PPV.

MRV and TTG might be nice, but before the S3 I had an S1, so I never had those features anyway. I'm hoping they'll enable MRV on the S3 and make it compatible with S2s. That way I can swap my S1 for one of the two S2s sitting on a shelf doing nothing and get MRV between the bedroom and family room TiVos.

[DTSDude]

A somewhat difficult poll though. I never would have tossed out $700 for a full on S3. Especially with the prospect of SDV, or because of no two way.

When they put out the $299 TiVo HD which I used a 30% off coupon and $150 in GC's to pick up, bringing my outlay to $119 out the door I couldn't resist. Heck I didn't even think about it twice.

[ah30k]

I bought one, but this is certainly keeping me from buying more.

[DonRoeber]

Never used the On-Demand stuff, so I don't miss it.

However, a coworker of mine uses it all the time, and despite not liking the Comcast DVR, won't get a tivo because they can't give up the VOD stuff.

[kido]

SDV is a just a bandaid for cable companies. Eventually, they will need to upgrade their capacity and drop analog and go digital in order to stay competitive. If most of the HD channels are tuned in by someone in the service area most of the time anyway, then SDV really only helps offer programming that caters to a small audience with specific interests. In other words, obscure channels most people don't watch. Why spend so much for such a little return? Dropping analog cuts down on piracy and offers much more to the consumer than implementing SDV.

[ajwees41]

All cable cards are two way. Tivo didn't include two way hardware in the S3 or tivoHD is the reason ppv,OnDemand don't work.

ajwees41

[drew00001]

PPV has always been available to most TiVO HD and S3 owners, as long as your cable company lets you order by phone. I have ordered PPV on my S3 several times without problem with Seattle Comcast. The availability is common. I even recorded and save.

[sfhub]

SDV is a just a bandaid for cable companies. Eventually, they will need to upgrade their capacity and drop analog and go digital in order to stay competitive. If most of the HD channels are tuned in by someone in the service area most of the time anyway, then SDV really only helps offer programming that caters to a small audience with specific interests. In other words, obscure channels most people don't watch. Why spend so much for such a little return? Dropping analog cuts down on piracy and offers much more to the consumer than implementing SDV.
I agree SDV is a band-aid, but compared to dropping analog (and all the boxes they will need to add) SDV isn't really that costly. It is mostly a software upgrade for existing VOD-capable boxes. Of course there are back-end changes as well, but that is no where near the cost of a change that requires half their customers to get STBs.

I think they will gradually drop expanded basic, but they don't want to do it all at once, and will wait until a larger percentage of customers are already on digital, at which point they will do a hard drop of expanded basic like they did in Chicago. Eventually they will drop limited basic as well. Until they get more bandwidth, either through dropping channels or infrastructure upgrades, they will be happy to do a software-based band-aid to alleviate the bandwidth problem.

[GoHokies!]

All cable cards are two way. Tivo didn't include two way hardware in the S3 or tivoHD is the reason ppv,OnDemand don't work.

ajwees41At least tell the full story instead of a half truth - Tivo didn't include this hardware because they are prohibited by the Open Cable lisencing agreement to unclude 2 way funtionality unless you're OCAP compliant (meaning that the cable company can download their software to your box and blow away the Tivo software).

Also, there is a grid style guide available in the S3 (if that's what the OP meant by "no grid").

[sfhub]

At least tell the full story instead of a half truth - Tivo didn't include this hardware because they are prohibited by the Open Cable lisencing agreement to unclude 2 way funtionality unless you're OCAP compliant (meaning that the cable company can download their software to your box and blow away the Tivo software).
They could have included the hardware w/o enabling it, making a future software upgrade easier if the licensing ever got worked out (or something like SDV came about)

[davecramer74]

I use VOD too much to purchase a tivo. the lack of 2 way support has not only turned me away from the tivo, but from mediacenter pc's as well. i was really hoping this new tivo would have been and opencable 2.0 device but looks like tivo isnt going to go that route with them already handing their software over to run on the cable co's hardware.

[richsadams]

We had several Comcast HD Moto boxes and after wanting to smash them to bits for all of the problems that they had we ended up purchasing an S3 and never looked back...couldn't be happier. We'll probably replace our S2’s with TiVo HD’s once they get the bugs worked out.

We can still get PPV and IMHO most of the VOD wasn't worth watching or available elsewhere. MRV/TTG and eSATA support are on the way so that's not a concern either.

FWIW and AFAIK all we really need are more acronyms! :D

[kido]

I agree SDV is a band-aid, but compared to dropping analog (and all the boxes they will need to add) SDV isn't really that costly. It is mostly a software upgrade for existing VOD-capable boxes. Of course there are back-end changes as well, but that is no where near the cost of a change that requires half their customers to get STBs.


So, with SDV using existing boxes, a cable company will spend the money, do the upgrade and receive $0 in additional revenue for their efforts as they have not placed a single new STB in the field. They still have limited capacity and FIOS just got approval to start selling services in their area. Oops. But they do now offer the Ice Fishing channel in HD. :)

SDV has been available to cable companies for almost 10 years. If it was really going to take off, it would have by now. The fact is that SDV is best used as a marketing tool and to lock people in to using the cable company's equipment. This last fact might also cause the FCC to add restrictions to SDV at some point in the future. It's too much trouble without much return.

[Dogen]

For some reason I never much cared for PPV/VOD but I LOVE Amazon Unbox. I realize this doesn't make a lot of sense. Maybe it's that Unbox has stuff on it I would actually want to watch?

[smbaker]

I never use On-Demand, so it's not an issue for me. In fact, I don't have, nor do I think I have ever had a set-top box. Personally, I don't want a cablecard, be it unidirectional or bidirectional, anywhere near my Tivo. All it does is reduce the reliability of the Tivo [look at all the cablecard complaints], which has perfectly good ATSC and QAM tuners.

I did use amazon unbox for the very first time on my HD. I was fairly impressed with how well it worked, although it did seem to take a couple of hours to download (longer than I had anticipated), and would not let me watch the program until the download had completed. Tivo should get that fixed. It should work like MRV so that you can watch while downloading, otherwise it won't be competitive with PPV.

If Tivo could integrate with Netflix, then I would be very, very happy. I assume this is a no-no due to competition with amazon, but it still would be nice!

[SugarBowl]

I don't really look at it like i'm losing anything. All of those 2 way features are a way to keep your wallet open to the cable company.

[Leo_N]

As long as I can keep getting PPV via the 800 phone line I am good. I don't order often (typically just MMA fights) so it isn't too much of a hassle.

Although, if they added some type of USB dongle to the S3 to allow it via the internet or even if they let you order PPV through your account logon via PC on the internet, that would be even better. I'd probably end up ordering more too. :eek:

[Shawn95GT]

I use VOD too much to purchase a tivo. the lack of 2 way support has not only turned me away from the tivo, but from mediacenter pc's as well. i was really hoping this new tivo would have been and opencable 2.0 device but looks like tivo isnt going to go that route with them already handing their software over to run on the cable co's hardware.
Doesn't VoD kind of negate the need for Tivo? I see them as complimenting each other. VoD content is limited. If VoD would let you get anything whenever you want it would be like the cable company is the mother of all Tivos :).

We don't have VoD here on Cox's Phoenix system, but if I decide to subscribe to some of the VoD offerings I'll just add a STB to my entertainment center and use it for VoD only.... maybe pair up one of my S2s with it.

[sfhub]

SDV has been available to cable companies for almost 10 years. If it was really going to take off, it would have by now.
The catalyst for all the bandwidth saving (or expansion) techniques like SDV, dropping expanded basic, etc. is the onset of more HD channels.

In the last 10 years, how many HD channels launched? Now compare to what is expected in the next 3 years.

Your analogy is like saying fiber optic has been around for 20 years, if it was really going to take off, it would have by now.

The reason it is taking off now is because there is finally a catalyst in that the # of video apps are increasing.

Personally I'm against SDV if it cannot be made to coexist with UDCP products like TiVo, but have no problems with it if they come up with a solution before mass deployment.

[TerryTT]

I miss comcast ondemand

[jmpage2]

We don't watch a lot of on-demand but we will miss it too. Some of the stuff on there is not offered via regular broadcast, and the free HD movies they offer every month are sometimes very good (Silence of the Lambs is available on HD On Demand right now even though it's not out on HD DVD or Blu-rray yet).

[davecramer74]

Doesn't VoD kind of negate the need for Tivo?

ya, i dont dvr anything but primetime shows or stuff i know wont be on demand. Any movie thats being shown on the movie channels is on demand. All 6 star wars, all 11 planet earths, etc all on demand. Thats huge amounts of space im saving. I guess it depends on where you live and who your provider is would be a factor. For me, spending money on a tivo and having to pay for a STB to have on demand isnt worth it. Ill wait until i can have the best of both worlds.

[ajwees41]

At least tell the full story instead of a half truth - Tivo didn't include this hardware because they are prohibited by the Open Cable lisencing agreement to unclude 2 way funtionality unless you're OCAP compliant (meaning that the cable company can download their software to your box and blow away the Tivo software).

Also, there is a grid style guide available in the S3 (if that's what the OP meant by "no grid").


All I was doing was replying to the OP when he was talking about the lack of two way cable cards.

I think Tivo should have waited on the TivoHD until they figured out how to do two way communications.

ajwees41

[jmpage2]

ya, i dont dvr anything but primetime shows or stuff i know wont be on demand. Any movie thats being shown on the movie channels is on demand. All 6 star wars, all 11 planet earths, etc all on demand. Thats huge amounts of space im saving. I guess it depends on where you live and who your provider is would be a factor. For me, spending money on a tivo and having to pay for a STB to have on demand isnt worth it. Ill wait until i can have the best of both worlds.

Well, you are likely to wind up with a compromise, not the best of both worlds.

The Tivo software running on the Cable company DVR is the closest to what you are after. Tivo interface and all on-demand and PPV programming.

Drawbacks are that it's going to cost more than the regular Cable Co DVR, might not be as robust or fast as standalone Tivo and no expandable storage options.

[moyekj]

Drawbacks are that it's going to cost more than the regular Cable Co DVR, might not be as robust or fast as standalone Tivo and no expandable storage options. Not to mention no OTA capability and no MRV/TTG/TTCB capability which is supposedly coming "this year" to the Series 3.

[ajwees41]

Not to mention no OTA capability and no MRV/TTG/TTCB capability which is supposedly coming "this year" to the Series 3.


Are you sure the Comcast/Cox tivo will not have some form of MRV with the motorola follow me?

ajwees41

[jmpage2]

Are you sure the Comcast/Cox tivo will not have some form of MRV with the motorola follow me?

ajwees41

I actually think that we WILL see MRV on those boxes but I expect it's something that will not be added for quite some time.

[moyekj]

MRV could be a possibility way down the road, (I don't think Motorola's Follow Me solution has actually released anywhere in production yet even without Tivo software). For some, firewire extraction capability gives you a very crude and limited form of TTG, but TTCB type functionality will NEVER happen. Heck, eSata ports on Moto boxes have been available for a long time yet no sign of external hard drive expansion looming, so at the pace cable companies move these things are not on the horizon for most.

[nhaigh]

I voted for the No - I have one now option but I can equally say the No - I'm waiting for MRV etc beacuse that's the reason I've not bought my second one yet.

I also have a set top box now and don't use VOD or PPV. VOD performs so badly I don't see how anyone can see it as having any value.

[mfogarty5]

Yes, the lack of two way interactivity bothers me and is preventing me from getting a TiVo.

I am moving next week and unfortunately have to return to TWC service. Since they are rolling out SDV here in Charlotte in the 4th quarter I am going with the crappy SA8300 with the crappy new TWC Navigator software.

IF THE TIVO HD COULD TUNE SDV CHANNELS I WOULD BUY 2 OF THEM TOMORROW.

This is so darn frustrating!!

[alansplace]

nope, have never used any of those features and don't plan to. bought a TiVoHD in the first week.
--
Alan :-D

[MichaelK]

They could have included the hardware w/o enabling it, making a future software upgrade easier if the licensing ever got worked out (or something like SDV came about)


and they may have done that.

[MichaelK]

All I was doing was replying to the OP when he was talking about the lack of two way cable cards.

I think Tivo should have waited on the TivoHD until they figured out how to do two way communications.

ajwees41


do we know they didn't on the tivoHD?

[ajwees41]

do we know they didn't on the tivoHD?


If they didn't annouce anything with the launch of TivoHD I don't think it has the hardware.

Plus who thinks Tivo would let OCAP software run on the TivoHD?

ajwees41

[AJRitz]

I could not care less about VOD, PPV, or the cable company's grid guide. The only thing holding me back from purchasing a couple of TiVoHD boxes right now is the need to save up some cash (I'll need to "upgrade" my hard drives as soon as I get them).

[MichaelK]

If they didn't annouce anything with the launch of TivoHD I don't think it has the hardware.

Plus who thinks Tivo would let OCAP software run on the TivoHD?

ajwees41


tivo AINT going to do OCAP- but the Tivo CEO told congress and Cable through their lobbying arm told the FCC that they were working together to come up with a 2-way solution that does NOT involve OCAP.

Tivo couldn't announce 2 way functionalioty becasue they dont know if they will ever get cable to agree to the workaround. Probably wouldn't be helpfull to say "we have included all the electronics required to havea 2 way path via docis to the cable head end, however we can not say if cable will ever alllow us to use it without OCAP"

there's an FPGA on both the series 3 and the tivo HD motherboards capable of getting used as a DOCSIS modem. They might be using those chips for somethignm else comlpetely different but we just dont seem to KNOW anything one way or the other.

Does anyone know if there are FPGA's in any other tivo devices.

BTW- here's one of the original threads abotu it:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=315980

[MichaelK]

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=315980

in a reply to future SDV:

1. It *may* be available. 2. TiVo's CEO stated, before Congress, that TiVo was working with the cable industry on a solution for SDV on uni-directional CableCARD devices. 3. No time frame.

Reference 1. (http://www.tivolovers.com/2007/07/24/some-interesting-news-about-switched-digital-video/) Reference 2. (http://www.tivolovers.com/2007/05/10/mr-tivo-goes-to-washington/) Reference 3. (http://www.tivolovers.com/2007/05/14/mr-tivo-goes-to-washington-the-video/)