What do you think of the monthly fees? [Text View]

mikesown

08-07-2007, 01:00 AM

smbaker

08-07-2007, 01:34 AM

I'm not too worked up over Tivo's monthly service fees, but I HATE the service contract / commitments.

A few months ago I reactivated a S1 that I had sitting on the shelf for a while and had to pay the $10.95 rate (MRV discount rate) because I only wanted to commit to one years worth of service on this very old tivo box.

I can sort of understand the need for commitments to subsidize the cost of a new Tivo, but this was a box that I had paid about 5 years of service on, disconnected for about 2 months, and then reactivated because a family member wanted the Tivo in his bedroom. [yes, I know it was my fault, I should have anticipated wanting to use the Tivo and not disconnected service in the first place, but I had no idea I would have to commit to a contract to reactivate it, as I had never had to commit to a contract with any of my other tivos]

I always used to brag to people about how nice and friendly the Tivo service was without all the typical tricks (service commitments, early disconnect penalties, ...) of your usual big corporation. Tivo is catching up with them fast.

jfh3

08-07-2007, 01:48 AM

Note that a service contract doesn't have to remain tied to any particular box for the length of the contract. If you know you are going to have SOME box with the Tivo service, go for the longer contract and simply move the service when the time comes.

To the OP - this topic has been beaten to death over the years.
If you can't see the value to the Tivo service, don't subscribe.

Prepaying at $299 for three years yields a net cost of about $8.31, well under your target of $9.95.

If you take a one year contract, you are essentially paying back the hardware subsidy cost.

mikesown

08-07-2007, 01:51 AM

Prepaying at $299 for three years yields a net cost of about $8.31, well under your target of $9.95.

Right, but this includes paying $260+ for a box. A 3 year contract at $8.31 a month is reasonable if there's no startup cost.

jfh3

08-07-2007, 01:57 AM

Right, but this includes paying $260+ for a box. A 3 year contract at $8.31 a month is reasonable if there's no startup cost.

Fine. Include the box and it's about $15.83 a month. Still less than $16.95. :)

And awfully close to what most people pay to rent an inferior cable DVR.

smbaker

08-07-2007, 01:59 AM

Note that a service contract doesn't have to remain tied to any particular box for the length of the contract. If you know you are going to have SOME box with the Tivo service, go for the longer contract and simply move the service when the time comes.

That's what I should have done, but I didn't know I could do this at the time. I just wish they would dispense with the contracts altogether; As a consumer who has been burned by cellphone contracts many times, I almost always avoid a product that requires a contract.

btwyx

08-07-2007, 02:19 AM

You missed the option for "I don't pay monthly fees".

mikesown

08-07-2007, 03:12 AM

Fine. Include the box and it's about $15.83 a month. Still less than $16.95. :)

And awfully close to what most people pay to rent an inferior cable DVR.

From my CableCo, a DVR is $9.95 a month. That's with NO commitments, and NO up front costs. With the Tivo, not only do you have an up front cost, but you have to pay exorbitant monthly rates. $15.83 a month is committing to 3 years of service.

Quite frankly, if the CableCo can offer it for such a low price and no commitment in comparison to Tivo, why can't Tivo do the same?

What I would like to see Tivo do is rent out Tivos like the CableCo. The Tivo might be a refurb(a customer who cancelled service, or a refurbrished broken one), but for $10 a month, I'd take it.

MickeS

08-07-2007, 03:54 AM

From my CableCo, a DVR is $9.95 a month. That's with NO commitments, and NO up front costs. With the Tivo, not only do you have an up front cost, but you have to pay exorbitant monthly rates. $15.83 a month is committing to 3 years of service.

Quite frankly, if the CableCo can offer it for such a low price and no commitment in comparison to Tivo, why can't Tivo do the same?

Because the cable company spreads its DVR fee over the entire bill. The cable company also has an advantage as the only provider of cable TV to your home.

I agree about the commitment periods from TiVo, that should ONLY be for new, subsidized hardware. Everything else should be month-to-month.

Plus I think it was a big mistake of them to get rid of Lifetime. :)

vman41

08-07-2007, 04:08 AM

You missed the option for "I don't pay monthly fees".

Isn't that another way of saying that the monthly fees are way too high?

sfhub

08-07-2007, 04:15 AM

With the rate at which the base hardware price on TiVo HiDef PVRs is going down, it is a way of saying the monthly fees were not high enough, so we decided to pay more :)

08-07-2007, 04:48 AM

Quite frankly, if the CableCo can offer it for such a low price and no commitment in comparison to Tivo, why can't Tivo do the same?

Please tell me why Comcast would not rent a DVR to me unless I pay them additional $60/month.

aaronwt

08-07-2007, 07:59 AM

Because the cable company spreads its DVR fee over the entire bill. The cable company also has an advantage as the only provider of cable TV to your home.

I agree about the commitment periods from TiVo, that should ONLY be for new, subsidized hardware. Everything else should be month-to-month.

Plus I think it was a big mistake of them to get rid of Lifetime. :)

Their big mistake was even offering Lifetime. That makes no sense from a business perspective. A person pays a fee and you never receive any income from them again and you still have to provide them service? That's a good way to bankrupt a company.

jrm01

08-07-2007, 08:10 AM

Option 4:

- The service is so good and the box so great I feel that I am cheating Tivo. The fee should be higher.

:D

Edited to add grin before I get flamed.

StuffOfInterest

08-07-2007, 08:20 AM

Their big mistake was even offering Lifetime. That makes no sense from a business perspective. A person pays a fee and you never receive any income from them again and you still have to provide them service? That's a good way to bankrupt a company.
It made sense when they were still trying to break into the market. In 2000 I bought a Sony Series 1 and then paid $199 to put a lifetime subscription on it knowing I'd have a break even point in about two years. Being that I don't really like recurring costs, I'm not sure I would have even tried TiVo without the option. Now that they are well established you are more likely than not to know someone who already has TiVo so it is easier to attract new customers. I do wish they still offered new lifetime subs, but I can live without it as well.

lancelot

08-07-2007, 08:52 AM

The fees are way too high. That's why TIVO can get the mass of subscribers they are looking for.

If the per "household" fee was $10, then I could see it. Folks could get a few S3s and be very happy about it. Remember, with the S3, you still have to pay for two cable cards. So for three, that's 6 cable cards at about $1.50 a piece. That's $9 bucks for the cable cards and $10 for, in my example, "household" service. So, at $19 a month, that gets a bit pricey. Even with 1 S3, at TIVO's current pricing, that's about $18 with cable cards.

That's what made Directv with Tivo so great. About $5 for the entire household, no matter how many Directivos you had. Also, each box had an extra receiver fee of $5. Still very reasonable.

Directv and Tivo need to come together again, and soon!

Squeak

08-07-2007, 09:15 AM

btwyx

08-07-2007, 09:50 AM

Isn't that another way of saying that the monthly fees are way too high?Maybe, but I didn't want to pay any monthly fee, and now I've no idea what the monthly fees are. Its difficult to comment if I've no experience of paying them.

tivoknucklehead

08-07-2007, 10:00 AM

the 3 yr prepaid is only 8.31/ mo which is worth it for what you get compared to cable DVRs

jmpage2

08-07-2007, 10:34 AM

There are plenty of cheap Tivo options if you don't need HD recording. You can get a Series-2 Tivo for $99 right now with a $149 rebate towards service.

The big hook right now is HD. Tivo knows that people will pay a premium for HD service with their Tivos and I'm rather shocked that it's taken them this long to offer a somewhat 'affordable' option for HD recording for those who want a Tivo.

Tivo also knows that they have a service that's viewed as 'better' than the cable company offerings so they don't seem to feel the need to compete with them on price. For the record, Comcast and others are increasing their box rental charges to spread out cable card costs to all consumers. In my market they are up to $12 a month but in many other areas they have gone to $12.99-$19.99 for an HD DVR rental.

I have a feeling that Tivo is going to sell as many $299 Tivo HD units as they can and then begin dropping the price. I wouldn't be surprised to see a $149 or $99 HD unit in stores by next spring. Either that or Tivo starts to bundle in a year or two of service at the $299 price.

$299 for Tivo HD and $299 for a 3 year service agreement is NOT more economical than renting a cable box for 90% of consumers and Tivo knows this, but they are probably interested in testing the demand right now with these prices.

jmpage2

08-07-2007, 10:35 AM

Maybe, but I didn't want to pay any monthly fee, and now I've no idea what the monthly fees are. Its difficult to comment if I've no experience of paying them.

So do you think that someone with a lifetime subscription that isn't available to 99% of potential Tivo consumers should be offering insight into the fairness of Tivo's current service prices?

GoHokies!

08-07-2007, 10:37 AM

Comcast is raising their fee to $13/month for a DVR. That swings the math even more in favor of Tivo in my book, for sure. I'd much rather pay the same amount for a better product.

You can't count the cost of the box in your comparisons, as when you buy the box, you're actually buying something that has value (see: eBay). You don't get that with a cable company DVR.

(Also, this should be in the Coffee House - it isn't S3 specific).

Toeside

08-07-2007, 10:50 AM

Maybe, but I didn't want to pay any monthly fee, and now I've no idea what the monthly fees are. Its difficult to comment if I've no experience of paying them.

But that's no longer an option. You need to realize that there are an influx of new TiVo owners/Subscribers due to the new TiVo HD box. They may not know Lifetime ever existed, and by posting that you don't pay monthly fees may be confusing to them.

Lifetime was a great option while it lasted, but as we know, that option is gone. We are left with service fees--either monthly or prepaid.

Personally, I'm "OK" with the fees, but I understand where the OP is coming from. We had DirecTV for 5 years paying $6/month for DVR service on the account. Going from a flat $6 to $13 for the first and $7 for each additional is quite a jump. I just have to factor in the fee on top of our cable bill (or for a while, we were OTA only, so no content bill) and decide if it's worth it. For us, it is.

Bierboy

08-07-2007, 11:16 AM

I pay $12.95/month. That's the equivalent of two lunches. I enjoy my TiVo MUCH more than any lunch and for MUCH more time than it takes to eat two lunches. Case closed.

Chris Fox

08-07-2007, 11:21 AM

Personally, I'm repulsed by Tivo's service rates. I'm presently a directivo owner paying $5.99 a month for DVR service. I was considering purchasing a Tivo HD for $260 from circuit city, but after looking up the prices for Tivo's standalone boxes, I've decided not to buy the Tivo HD. What do you guy think? Is $16.95 a month with a 1 year contract a fair price? For me, it's definitely not. Think about what Tivo is doing with that money:

Why don't you agree to personally pay for any of Tivo's losses if they lower the rates to your "reasonable" level? Yeah, that's what I thought...

1. Giving you TV Guide updates(a valuable, necessary service, but not an expensive one). TV Guide data is available for free on the web. I could see paying maybe $2 a month at most for the assurance of quality guide data that worked across cable providers.

It is definitely NOT free for Tivo to distribute those. As a MythTV user, I'm finiding out that is quite expensive for a company to use that data.

2. R&D for updates. To me, Tivo's software is complete more or less. It does recording extremely well, manages season passes, has all of the media options done well. The only features missing are TivoToGo and MRV, and I assume Tivo has these implemented and awaiting Cablecard approval. Other than bugfix updates, and MRV/TTG, I can't see paying much here, maybe $1-$2 a month at most.

R&D is done? Boy that's a funny one. So when the cable companies implement SDV, you don't think Tivo should make changes so their boxes can work with it?

Do you think getting CableLabs approval is free? I've had to qualify systems through Telcordia (the phone comany equivalent of CableLabs); for a relatively small company like Tivo, this can be quite expensive and time consuming.

And then there is this new thing called the "Internet" or something like that. I hear there might be some useful things out there that Tivo might leverage (think Netflix lists or Amazon unbox)...

3. Subsidizing the box. This would be perfectly acceptable with me, but the Tivo HD would have to be free, and the monthly fee would have to be slightly lower(think $9.95 a month).

As crappy as the CableCo's DVR is, I can get one for $5 a month with no up front costs, and no commitment. This deal, however much better the Tivo is, makes paying $260(street price, with discounts) for the Tivo HD more outrageous.

You expect them to give away a box for free and charge less than the cable company does for a HD DVR? Here's a scoop: the cable company LEASES their box to you; you DO NOT OWN it. And their not just getting $5/month from you; their getting much more than that for your TV susbscription.

You're certainly free to not buy a Tivo. In fact, I don't own one myself since leaving DirecTV. But when it came time to use the cable company's DVR, I quickly gave up on it. Clunky interface, small storage, and advertisements galore led me to the old addage "you get what you pay for"...

Rather than whine about the high cost of owning a Tivo (it was $800 for an S3 at the time), I actually did something about it. I built my own (MythTV setup)! Here's what I've learned from that experience:

1. Building a HD capable PC with dual tuners is not cheap. At the very least, you're looking to spend $400-$500. It is easy to spend much more.
2. Configuration and maintenance takes time (i.e. it is not free). Most commercial DVRs to a great job of hiding this from the user.
3. Guide data is only free for non-commercial use (and that will likely be going away at the end of this month).

So bottom line: a TivoHD at $300 plus $300 for 3 year pre-paid service is pretty reasonable IMHO. For about $17/month over 3 years (plus cablecard costs), you OWN the box. For a HD DVR from Comcast, it costs $10 or 15 per month to LEASE the box. For me, it is a no brainer to pass on the cable DVR.

If you can really get multiple dual-tuner HD DVRs at $5 a pop, then you have a tougher choice. But my guess is that you are in the minority...

Chris

btwyx

08-07-2007, 11:36 AM

So do you think that someone with a lifetime subscription that isn't available to 99% of potential Tivo consumers should be offering insight into the fairness of Tivo's current service prices?I'm not commenting, I just want to vote in the poll, I was excluded.

classicsat

08-07-2007, 11:43 AM

Some opinions:

The TiVo fee for DirecTV DVRs is set by DirecTV, and the DVRs are serviced by DirecTV. TiVo expends little resources on their part of servicing DirecTV TiVos, at least that they don't get compensated for.
Like cable, DirecTV is in the business of selling TV, which is where their primary revenue comes from. They could be selling the DVR service as a loss-leader.

TiVos primary revenue is selling the DVR service, secondarily hardware, which they sell at a loss in some cases, and that loss is recovered from general revenue, rather than on a per customer basis.

The DVR service does cover more than the guide data (which they do in fact have to pay for), it also covers the costs of their servers, internet connections, and yes, R&D for software development.

In perspective, for a middle class household that pays at least $50 monthly for a pay TV service, and/or a couple grand or more on a TV set, TiVos Standalone DVR rate sheet isn't so bad.

gschoen

08-07-2007, 11:55 AM

Maybe, but I didn't want to pay any monthly fee, and now I've no idea what the monthly fees are. Its difficult to comment if I've no experience of paying them.

So don't.

You can sit out this one poll, can't you?

btwyx

08-07-2007, 11:57 AM

You can sit out this one poll, can't you?No.

gschoen

08-07-2007, 12:01 PM

I wouldn't mind leasing the Tivo if it meant lower fees or up front costs. Electronic depreciation quickly lowers the value of the device and the box isn't any good without service anway.

Saying "but you own it" isn't a plus in my book. The 1-3 year committment is really harsh and doesn't take into account a user's future circumstances (moving to a condo building w/o cable, SDV rollouts, tech/other issues with cable co, etc. etc.etc.)

jmpage2

08-07-2007, 12:03 PM

btwyx

08-07-2007, 12:05 PM

I decided I will comment, when I was looking at getting the S3 I was paying something like $5 to D*. I could probably live with a monthly fee like that. The monthly fees I was looking at were something like $12 I thought that was a bit high, so I jumped on the lifetime transfer when it was available.

So my option in this poll would be "I think they're a little high". There's no option for that either. You're either fine with the fees (strongly or moderatly), or strongly against them. There's no moderatly against them option. (as well as having no "Other" option.)

So I have a legitimate opinion for this thread, and I was excluded.

aaronwt

08-07-2007, 02:53 PM

08-07-2007, 03:06 PM

You also have to pay $5 for each receiver(except the first one) on a DirectV account. That needs to be factored in as well. Comcast doesn't charge me a fee like that. I'm getting charged for the HD cable box and the digital cable. I have three Series 3 boxes and the TiVoHD box that is also covered under one outlet price, Since technically I take the one outlet and split it myself so they aren't charging me any more than the one outlet for four TiVos. They also aren't charging me anything for my 6 cable cards.

Your area is very unusual. Each digital device beyond the first one should have an additional digital outlet charge, which is ~$7 in my area, whether it's a Comcast box or your TiVo's first CableCard. It's not based on the number of physical wall outlets.

jmpage2

08-07-2007, 03:26 PM

You also have to pay $5 for each receiver(except the first one) on a DirectV account. That needs to be factored in as well. Comcast doesn't charge me a fee like that. I'm getting charged for the HD cable box and the digital cable. I have three Series 3 boxes and the TiVoHD box that is also covered under one outlet price, Since technically I take the one outlet and split it myself so they aren't charging me any more than the one outlet for four TiVos. They also aren't charging me anything for my 6 cable cards.

You've previously acknowledged that your billing setup is "not normal" and that you won't do anything to monkey with it for fear of having them start to bill you additional charges.

Most people in the country will pay at least $7 per Tivo from Comcast as a "2nd outlet" or "HD upcharge" fee for using the service with another digital box.

jjberger2134

08-07-2007, 03:44 PM

The original poster should compare apples to apples. Consider, a TiVo does much more than any cable co. DVR. The basic function of any DVR, TiVo or non-TiVo is the ability to record TV.

However, there are specific TiVo only features, services that are non-existent on cable co. DVR's. These features include Amazon Downloads, MRV, TTG, Universal Swivel Search, the ability to view photos and listen to music from your PC, order movie tickets online, Yahoo weather and traffic, etc. etc. All of these "extras" need to cost something to the user.

Also consider, there are some features that are included in your TiVo service that customers pay to their cable company as part of the monthly digital non-dvr service. For example, cable companies offer multiple music stations. TiVo includes this feature as part of their service - live365, but cable companies bundle it into the monthly service fee.

So overall I think the original poster should consider the entire feature set when comparing TiVo to a cable company DVR. Overall, in my opinion the 1 year commitment is a bit steep, especially if you buy a box at full retail. As others have pointed out, the 3 year commitment has a negligible cost increase over a cable co. DVR.

08-07-2007, 03:59 PM

To those of you who voted "The fees are way too high!", why are you participating in this forum? If there is a better, more cost efficient product, why not use that product instead?

jmpage2

08-07-2007, 04:29 PM

To those of you who voted "The fees are way too high!", why are you participating in this forum? If there is a better, more cost efficient product, why not use that product instead?

What does thinking the fees are too high have anything to do with giving up on Tivo? I think $40,000 is too much for an Audi A4 sedan, but bought one anyway.

Seriously, some of you guys can't stand to see Tivo get any criticism of any kind without feeling personally attacked?
Your average consumer is not going to spend $299 for a 3 year service contract and will be paying $16.99 a month for a single Tivo box.

If Tivo really wants some form of mass acceptance of their product through their own boxes they are going to have to address this.

b3ar

08-07-2007, 04:35 PM

Your area is very unusual. Each digital device beyond the first one should have an additional digital outlet charge, which is ~$7 in my area, whether it's a Comcast box or your TiVo's first CableCard. It's not based on the number of physical wall outlets.
Not really. Granted Houston is new to being "Comcastic!", but the first cable card here is free, then you have to bring your friends. ;)

I have one CableCard in my TivoHD, and I will enjoy paying $9/mo (vs. $15 - $17+ once Comcast makes our artificially low DVR fees more Comcastic) until I get Tivo finally releases a unit that does bidirectional communication. At that point, I'll ditch my upgraded TivoHD for the new unit, and quit paying any fees to Tivo (I have an unused Lifetime card being held in reserve for this).

Bill

CharlesH

08-07-2007, 05:07 PM

I wonder why I haven't heard of any TiVo leasing companies. Would it be a viable business plan for a company to buy a bunch of TiVo boxes with super-long-term service plans (perhaps specially negotiated with TiVo), and lease them to customers for some term, and then take them back and sell them or lease them again? The cable companies sure must see $$ in their set-top rental business, given how obstructionist they are toward third-party set-top boxes.

08-07-2007, 05:14 PM

What does thinking the fees are too high have anything to do with giving up on Tivo?
Too high compared to what? No one is forcing you to buy TiVo products.

I think $40,000 is too much for an Audi A4 sedan, but bought one anyway.
Since you bought it, it must be worth that much to you. It doesn't make much sense otherwise.

Seriously, some of you guys can't stand to see Tivo get any criticism of any kind without feeling personally attacked?
Not personally. I think threads like this are ridiculous.

Your average consumer is not going to spend $299 for a 3 year service contract and will be paying $16.99 a month for a single Tivo box.
Most of those paying $16.95/month probably don't know how to spend money wisely. That's already $203.40 for just one year. Why not spend $95.60 more for two additional years?

08-07-2007, 05:19 PM

Not really. Granted Houston is new to being "Comcastic!", but the first cable card here is free

The first card for the first outlet is "free". The first cards for additional outlets are included in the additional outlet fees.

jmpage2

08-07-2007, 05:33 PM

Too high compared to what? No one is forcing you to buy TiVo products.

3 yrs with my cable provided HD DVR costs me $360. 3 yrs of HD Tivo costs me $299 for 3 yrs of Tivo service + $299 for the box (and it's dubious what value it will have in 3 yrs) + $1.50 2nd cable card rental*36 months + $7 outlet fee * 36 months = $904.

Is Tivo $544 better than what the cable company rents? It's debatable since both devices essentially provide the same service and therefore there's nothing wrong with having a thread that checks the pulse of what people think about the fees.

Cell phones used to cost $1 a minute to use, and now you can get huge minute plans for $30 or $40 a month that include text, internet, etc. Tivo has to weigh the fees they charge against how it affects the size of their user base. Obviously some of their costs are fixed and extra recurring income from subscribers, even at $5 a month would benefit them IF they felt that they would gain enough additional subscribers to offset those currently paying higher monthly fees.

Not personally. I think threads like this are ridiculous.

Something sure is ridiculous here... yup.

Most of those paying $16.95/month probably don't know how to spend money wisely. That's already $203.40 for just one year. Why not spend $95.60 more for two additional years?

There are many reasons people might not opt to "save" money with the three year contract. Maybe they want to test drive Tivo for a few months and see if it's really for them before being tied up in a 3 year contract. Maybe they are worried that SDV or other things might render the Tivo partially obsolete or useless to them. I think it's kind of high and mighty of you to proclaim that other people don't know how to spend their money. It's their money!

Remember that Tivo got their premium $16+ per month service charge when all of the boxes had MRV and TTG enabled. Now, some of those features don't work on the new boxes, and maybe never will.

08-07-2007, 05:59 PM

3 yrs with my cable provided HD DVR costs me $360. 3 yrs of HD Tivo costs me $299 for 3 yrs of Tivo service + $299 for the box (and it's dubious what value it will have in 3 yrs) + $1.50 2nd cable card rental*36 months + $7 outlet fee * 36 months = $904.
The $7 outlet fee applies whether you have a Comcast box or a TiVo. If someone thinks the Comcast DVR is a better deal, then get it. 3 years of one Comcast DVR would cost me $60 x 36 = $2160.

There are many reasons people might not opt to "save" money with the three year contract. Maybe they want to test drive Tivo for a few months and see if it's really for them before being tied up in a 3 year contract. Maybe they are worried that SDV or other things might render the Tivo partially obsolete or useless to them. I think it's kind of high and mighty of you to proclaim that other people don't know how to spend their money. It's their money!
If I'm concerned about SDV, I would not get a TiVo. If I want to gamble $500 for one year, I might as well gamble $600 for 3 years. That's my financial opinion.

jmpage2

08-07-2007, 06:33 PM

The $7 outlet fee applies whether you have a Comcast box or a TiVo. If someone thinks the Comcast DVR is a better deal, then get it. 3 years of one Comcast DVR would cost me $60 x 36 = $2160.

If I'm concerned about SDV, I would not get a TiVo. If I want to gamble $500 for one year, I might as well gamble $600 for 3 years. That's my financial opinion.

No, at least in my franchise area, and I believe most of the country, the DVR or HD box rental includes the $7 fee. So basically I am paying an extra $5 a month for the DVR service over what the regular HD box rental costs me.

Now you are advocating gambling $500 when a post or two ago you were saying that someone who goes month to month is being financially foolish.

Believe me, I want Tivo to do well. I think that they would do a lot better offering $99 a year service plans versus this $299 for 3-years or $16.95 a month nonsense.

westside_guy

08-07-2007, 06:46 PM

I am evaluating whether I want to continue on with TiVo, so I guess I think their fees are too high. But since they pretty much have a monopoly on offering decent DVR service, it's hard to compare it against anything else. As a side note: it's hard to believe Comcast is upping their DVR's monthly fees, given how crappy it is (I've got a friend who went this route) - unless they're concurrently shifting to the TiVo software.

I'd like to point out that the "you own your TiVo, but only lease a Comcast box" argument is pretty bogus. If you're not paying TiVo for monthly service, you basically own an expensive brick.

bigusmfan

08-07-2007, 06:55 PM

I don't get here too much but didn't we go through all of these arguments ad nauseum over the years? Really? A poll about whether fees are too high? Really?

Really? There are differing opinions on whether they're too high? Really? :p

I swear this is such a beat down topic in general that it borders on trolling to even bring it up. Really? I couldn't think of anything better to say? Really?

08-07-2007, 06:57 PM

No, at least in my franchise area, and I believe most of the country, the DVR or HD box rental includes the $7 fee. So basically I am paying an extra $5 a month for the DVR service over what the regular HD box rental costs me.
In the San Francisco market, HD box is $7, and DVR is $13. Neither price includes the $7 additional outlet fee, which includes a SD box or a CableCard.

Now you are advocating gambling $500 when a post or two ago you were saying that someone who goes month to month is being financially foolish.
I'm not advocating gambling. Gambling is for someone concerned about SDV and still decides to buy a TiVo. I already said it might be better to just rent a Comcast box.

It's a free market. If you don't like the price, don't buy it. Simple.

mrmike

08-07-2007, 07:07 PM

What does thinking the fees are too high have anything to do with giving up on Tivo? I think $40,000 is too much for an Audi A4 sedan, but bought one anyway.

You're right. It is too much. I didn't pay that for my S4 new off the lot.

I dislike the structuring of TiVo's current pricing plans, but the cost appears to be nearly in parity with my local CableCo's HD DVR when all the numbers are factored in. Then the only issue is up-front HW cost, and that's a different thread.

jmpage2

08-07-2007, 08:09 PM

You're right. It is too much. I didn't pay that for my S4 new off the lot.

I dislike the structuring of TiVo's current pricing plans, but the cost appears to be nearly in parity with my local CableCo's HD DVR when all the numbers are factored in. Then the only issue is up-front HW cost, and that's a different thread.

Seeing as invoice on a new S4 is $44K that's quite an accomplishment! :D

mrmike

08-07-2007, 09:15 PM

Seeing as invoice on a new S4 is $44K that's quite an accomplishment! :D

Well, mine is a 2001.5, so that makes some difference. Sometimes early adoption is a win (Rather like my lifetimed TiVos)

megazone

08-07-2007, 09:16 PM

I'm perfectly happy with the fees. Of course, I'd never pay the full monthly fees - any new TiVo I purchase, presuming I can't get lifetime on it some way, will either be pre-paid, or on a 3-year MSD for $6.95/month (since I own three lifetime boxes). I always recommend the 3-year pre-paid plan to everyone who can afford it - comes to $8.31/month.

I think the 1-year plans are over-priced, but that's the subscribers own fault for taking a bad plan option.

Given the features of the product I don't think the pricing is out of line in general with the market.

lrhorer

08-07-2007, 09:28 PM

Their big mistake was even offering Lifetime. That makes no sense from a business perspective. A person pays a fee and you never receive any income from them again and you still have to provide them service? That's a good way to bankrupt a company.
Not at all. Many companies offer lifetime service plans, and make plenty of money doing it. All the company must do is correctly estimate the lifetime of the hardware and then charge an amount for the lifetime service somewhat less than they would get for monthly fees over that lifetime. They will be making more money because the interest on the up-front payment offsets the additional funds gained over time. Now if the company badly underestimates the average life of the hardware, they're screwed.

lrhorer

08-07-2007, 09:32 PM

That's true. What will these boxes be worth in 3 years? Will they be worth anything if a new "SDV capable" Tivo is needed down the road to watch SDV channels and PPV?
Why would anyone care about PPV or the bulk of SDV programming when they have a TiVo? The TiVo makes PPV almost completely irrelevant and pushes most of the SDV offerings way, way down the list, or eleminates them altogether.

lrhorer

08-07-2007, 09:37 PM

No, at least in my franchise area, and I believe most of the country, the DVR or HD box rental includes the $7 fee. So basically I am paying an extra $5 a month for the DVR service over what the regular HD box rental costs me.

'Not here. With alll the extra bits and pieces, it's the better part of $35 extra for one DVR and $9.95 for each additional DVR.

lrhorer

08-07-2007, 10:03 PM

1. Giving you TV Guide updates(a valuable, necessary service, but not an expensive one). TV Guide data is available for free on the web. I could see paying maybe $2 a month at most for the assurance of quality guide data that worked across cable providers.
It is NOT free on the web. It is underwritten by the television industry who charges you an arm, a leg, and three children every time you buy a can of corn or a quart of oil. I have no way to get at the exact figures, but I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't over $50 a month for the average consumer. I know the total cost of thieving by the Network Television industry was over $10,000 to me, last year. The TV Guide is a small, but significant, chunk of that.

OTOH, TiVo also subsidizes that very same service using the money you give them. I don't know how much, but they do have to pay for it on a per subscriber basis. That said, without the TiVo service you can't go to that very website you mention and click on "Record with TiVo" to have your DVR record it for you. Season Passes, swivel search, wishlist searches, title / genre / category searches, Amazon Unbox, web based control of the TiVo, etc. are all value added services. TiVo does it. Your off-brand DVR does not. Market relationships guarantee a provideer who offers more services can and will charge more for those additional services.

As crappy as the CableCo's DVR is, I can get one for $5 a month with no up front costs, and no commitment. This deal, however much better the Tivo is, makes paying $260(street price, with discounts) for the Tivo HD more outrageous.
A Lamborghini costs more than 10 times what a Corvette does, yet a Corvette is not crappy. The SA 8300, at least, is crappy, and so is what I have seen of other DVRs, yet you are grousing about TiVo's cost when it is much less in differential than that between a Corvette and a Ferrari. Oh, and by the way, about $5 - $7 a month of your cable bill goes to subsidizing the TV Guide. Again, however, you don't have the option not to pay it.

I love Tivo a lot. I hope that they lower their price to create market appeal. There's simply no way Tivo can gain the middle-of-the-road market unless they drop prices significantly to compete with CableCo DVRs.
That may be true, or not. It doesn't make your other points valid.

wolflord11

08-07-2007, 10:25 PM

There are Two Problems.

1. Monthly Fees (Not a problem for Lifetimers) Why not use a simple system: Pay a Monthly DVR fee of $x.xx per Month (Like Directv's $5.99 a Month) Thats covers every Tivo unit. Perhaps have the First unit Free, and charge a small amount extra for each other unit. (Much like Directv again). Its very simple: Tivo DVR Fee: $5.99 a Month, First unit Free, each other unit adds say: $4.99 a Month.

Its alot better than say this with Tivo:

Monthly Fee with 3 Year Commitment: $12.95 a Month. Then have say an extra unit: $6.95 a Month MSD (3 year Commitment) then you add another unit about half way thru: so you would pay $6.95 a Month extra on MSD, but after 1.5 years the other Two have expired and are now on Month to Month... etc etc. The Price scedule is just too messed up.

2. The Commitment. Yes you supposively Own the unit, and are tied into a commitment for 1,2 or 3 years. If after 90 Days, your warrany runs out, then the unit breaks. You are now s**t out of luck. You still have a commitment, so must pay that or an early termination fee, or have to purchase another unit for replacement, or fix the unit yourself.

Now, if Tivo offers say a 1 Year Commitment, why not also offer a 1 year Warranty? Remember, most units problems are to do with the HD, and you know that they have a 3 Year Warranty atleast. Tivo can refurbish those unit at no cost to them, and reuse them, while the customer is paying for repairs etc.

OR: Offer a Lease only option, where you lease the unit, pay a Monthly lease fee, if something goes wrong, Tivo replaces the unit and all is well. Much like Directv's lease program.

lrhorer

08-07-2007, 10:26 PM

Personally, I'm repulsed by Tivo's service rates. I'm presently a directivo owner paying $5.99 a month for DVR service.
Oh, and by the way, I have lifetime service on one Series III, free one year service on my Series I, and with the multi-service discount I'm paying $6.95 a month on the second Series III. Over three years (and dropping the Series I at the end of the 1st year), the average cost will be $6.54 per DVR per month plus $8 for the CableCards. Getting 3 DVRs for one year plus two for two years from my cable company would cost me $1544, or an average of $18.50 a month per DVR. Extend it to six years (I've had my Series I for seven years) and the TiVo cost drops to $5.12 a month plus $8 a month for the CableCards. 'Not so bad, really. If they only charge $2 each for the M series cards, it'll be even better. 'Rather small, actually, compared to my $165 a month bill for CATV services (including broadband).

gschoen

08-07-2007, 11:33 PM

Why would anyone care about PPV or the bulk of SDV programming when they have a TiVo? The TiVo makes PPV almost completely irrelevant and pushes most of the SDV offerings way, way down the list, or eleminates them altogether.
I don't use PPV very often, but when I got the cable DVR liked the OnDemand features. It has a huge selection, including HD, and can "store" far more than my DVR, and gets continually updated. For an HD DVR, this is more useful than the UnBox service - since it's quality is so bad, I'd never buy a show that way.

jmpage2

08-07-2007, 11:49 PM

Why would anyone care about PPV or the bulk of SDV programming when they have a TiVo? The TiVo makes PPV almost completely irrelevant and pushes most of the SDV offerings way, way down the list, or eleminates them altogether.

There is plenty on on-demand in HD and other things (unrated comedy specials, etc) that make it worth while.... as these things are NOT offered in other ways (regularly aired broadcasts) the Tivo can't replace them. The Tivo can only record things you might (or might not) be interested in watching.

Although I am willing to part with this service, many consumers will not be.

mikesown

08-07-2007, 11:58 PM

I think Tivo needs to rent DVRs. It's a great business model that would earn them a lot of money, and mass consumer acceptance. People typically don't care about getting a new DVR- as long as they don't have to pay an up front cost, and as long as someone will send a quick replacement if it breaks. It's a win-win situation: Tivo gets continued subscriptions and owns all the boxes, and the consumer gets the assurance of knowing that whenever the Tivo breaks, an advance replacement will be dispatched quickly. And it wouldn't cause Tivo to loose money. Let's assume, for argument's sake, that a Tivo HD costs Tivo $250 to manufacture. If Tivo charges just $10 a month for a little over 2 years(25 months), they can cover this expense. If they made you sign a 3 year contract, they could make back the R&D costs, along with some profit. In reality, the Tivo HD probably costs less to manufacture in bulk, but this model is a heck of a lot more appealing to me as a consumer than plucking down $260 for a box, plus $16 a month.

And, yes, I do realize that guide data costs Tivo money. That's what I mentioned in my original post. I think that this 'premium' data is worth no more than $1-$2 a month per subscriber.

As for R&D, I know there are still some obstacles(SDV, CC 2.0), but I'm saying that for the most part it's done. Tivo has a solid OS, a solid desktop client, and a well engineered HD recording box. The major expenses in R&D are out of the way.

I love my Tivo, but if/when my DirecTivo dies, I'll probably be forced to get a CableCo DVR or a DirecTV dvr for price reasons. I can't see paying exorbitant fees like what Tivo wants.

jmpage2

08-08-2007, 12:07 AM

I can't see the Tivo rental business being a money generator at all. The tech support costs alone (overnighting angry people new boxes when theirs "breaks", etc) would eat them alive.

aztivo

08-08-2007, 12:26 AM

As for R&D, I know there are still some obstacles(SDV, CC 2.0), but I'm saying that for the most part it's done. Tivo has a solid OS, a solid desktop client, and a well engineered HD recording box. The major expenses in R&D are out of the way.

umm yea and I am sure that the guys like sony who made 8 tracks felt the same way. what is a tape or cd??? :)

Lensman

08-08-2007, 12:40 AM

I'd like to point out that the "you own your TiVo, but only lease a Comcast box" argument is pretty bogus. If you're not paying TiVo for monthly service, you basically own an expensive brick.
As someone else suggested, sell the brick on ebay. You'll get lots of money for it. Well, maybe not lots, but you will recover its market value (or more if you're lucky).

I'm interested to see how Comcast will price their Tivo service. (actually, I'm dreading it, but that's another story). It'll be interesting to see whether it'll be competitive with Tivo HD.

I'm not an expert on the subject, but I think there's a benefit to having your customers be owners vs. renters. I suspect that boxes get really banged up by people who don't really care what happens to the hardware. Also, with my Comcast DVR, I feel like I'm renting a tenement. That Motorola box is just embarassing to have in my living room. Even the Series 1 was better looking (I admit that I might be biased here. The Series 1 was no supermodel).

I think part of the reason that cableco's can rent boxes is that when people don't return them, the cableco can charge exhorbitant fees for non-return and then extract those fees because they have a monopoly in that metropolitan area.

Last disconnected thought: It's interesting to me that my recurring costs on my series 3 through Cablevision are less than the costs for the same with the crappy Comcast DVR.

If we had actual competition in cable TV, the Tivo would be to cable what the iPhone is to cellular. It would drive conversion rates and provide a carrier with a competitive advantage.

jmpage2

08-08-2007, 12:44 AM

My personal guess is that Comcast won't charge more than $8 for the Tivo service on their box.

They certainly won't be charging more than $10, I don't think the market will bear it.

jfh3

08-08-2007, 03:27 AM

Comcast is raising their fee to $13/month for a DVR. That swings the math even more in favor of Tivo in my book, for sure. I'd much rather pay the same amount for a better product.

I thought the DVR rental was going to be $11.95. At least that's what it is in the Denver market.

And don't forget - that's for the DVR without the Tivo software, which is rumored to be an addition $5 a month.

Let me see ... $11.95 + $5 = .... drum roll please ... $16.95. No option for multiyear discount.

You get OnDemand, but lose USS, Unbox, many of the broadband features and get less (in most cases) recording capacity.

GoHokies!

08-08-2007, 06:49 AM

I thought the DVR rental was going to be $11.95. At least that's what it is in the Denver market.

And don't forget - that's for the DVR without the Tivo software, which is rumored to be an addition $5 a month.

Let me see ... $11.95 + $5 = .... drum roll please ... $16.95. No option for multiyear discount.

You get OnDemand, but lose USS, Unbox, many of the broadband features and get less (in most cases) recording capacity.
I was going off of this post in the Coffee House (again where, this discussion should be! :)) where a $12.95 cost was cited, I haven't seen anything in writing from Comcast here in MD yet:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5378884&&#post5378884

Your other points are spot on. If you leave out the box there are many cases where the Tivo service is at a compatible (or cheaper) price point).

astrohip

08-08-2007, 11:43 AM

Everyone's mileage is different. I was talking to my dad this morning, he is getting ready to upgrade to HD. He will need an HD DVR. He currently uses an S2 w/lifetime. He called ComCast/Aspen to get the details, and was told an HD DVR rents for $14.95 a month. But that cablecards are free.

He read about the TiVo HD in the latest email newsletter. He can get one for around $250-260. Pay TiVo a MSD of ~$7. Save $8 a month, AND get the TiVo experience, for a less than three year payback on purchase. He would have done it regardless, as he's used both TiVos and cable DVRs, and would only use a cable DVR if forced.

He actually called me to ask if I knew about any lifetime transfer offers (he knows I waste a lot of time in these forum). And he knows I did it on my S3. I told him I wasn't aware of any, but would let him know if it was offered.

So as many others have said, it is possible to use a TiVo and save money. Best of both worlds. :up:

As crappy as the CableCo's DVR is, I can get one for $5 a month
Doncha just love a statement like this. You have to say it a few times, and savor it as you repeat it. Hmm, there's something that's a POS, yet it's cheap.

To each his own.

sfhub

08-08-2007, 11:43 AM

I thought the DVR rental was going to be $11.95. At least that's what it is in the Denver market.
What I've heard is areas which already got raised are at $11.95 and areas which haven't been raised yet will go up to $12.95 at the next fee adjustment cycle and by next year the $11.95 folks will be at $12.95 also once their next fee adjustment cycle kicks in.

gschoen

08-08-2007, 01:59 PM

OTOH, TiVo also subsidizes that very same service using the money you give them. I don't know how much, but they do have to pay for it on a per subscriber basis ... Oh, and by the way, about $5 - $7 a month of your cable bill goes to subsidizing the TV Guide.You know how much cable pays for guide data but not Tivo? What's your source? It is NOT free on the web. It is underwritten by the television industry who charges you an arm, a leg, and three children every time you buy a can of corn or a quart of oil. I have no way to get at the exact figures, but I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't over $50 a month for the average consumer. I know the total cost of thieving by the Network Television industry was over $10,000 to me, last year. The TV Guide is a small, but significant, chunk of that.Wow $10,000. Maybe you should buy generic? How did you get this number? If you don't like giving money to those thieving Networks you should just not buy products that advertise! This is the same logic as "Nobody is forcing you - if you don't like the Tivo fees, don't use it"With alll the extra bits and pieces, it's the better part of $35 extra for one DVR and $9.95 for each additional DVR ... Getting 3 DVRs for one year plus two for two years from my cable company would cost me $1544, or an average of $18.50 a month per DVR$35 for a DVR, that must be a record. Between that and the $10K you pay for advertising, you must live in a very expensive area.Oh, and by the way, I have lifetime service on one Series III, free one year service on my Series I, and with the multi-service discount I'm paying $6.95 a month on the second Series III. Over three years (and dropping the Series I at the end of the 1st year), the average cost will be $6.54 per DVR per month plus $8 for the CableCards... Extend it to six years (I've had my Series I for seven years) and the TiVo cost drops to $5.12 a month plus $8 a month for the CableCards. 'Not so bad, really ... yet you are grousing about TiVo's cost when it is much less in differential than that between a Corvette and a FerrariThat's a great deal, where could I get $5.12/mo average pricing for my Tivos? Perhaps you have a plan not available to everyone? I suppose it's easy accuse others of "grousing" about the cost when you never have to pay another service fee for your S3.

At least the money you save on Tivo service fees can help make up for that $10,000 stolen by Network Television. :rolleyes:

08-08-2007, 02:19 PM

$35 for a DVR, that must be a record.
It would cost me $60/month to get a Comcast DVR because of the high minimum subscription requirement.

where could I get $5.12/mo average pricing for my Tivos?
Average is lower than the $6.95 MSD because there is a lifetime unit.

I don't know if lrhorer's numbers are accurate, but he/she works/worked for a cable company.

lrhorer

08-12-2007, 01:31 AM

You know how much cable pays for guide data but not Tivo? What's your source?
I used to work for a CATV company. I know what their overhead cost at the time. Of course it's been a while, but I'm pretty sure my estimate is in the ballpark. I have never worked for TiVo, so I don't know how much they pay.

Wow $10,000.
My comment had a few more syllables.

Maybe you should buy generic?
I try when I can. Please tell me where I can purchase a generic V-8 sports convertible. It's also getting extremely hard to find even a grocery store who does not advertise. I'm also not going to spend $3 in gas to save $.85 on a can of beans.

How did you get this number?
Several reports I have read suggest the retail price of the average consumer item is about 25 - 30% advertising costs. From where do you think the $10,000,000 for a 30 second commercial during the Super Bowl comes?

If you don't like giving money to those thieving Networks you should just not buy products that advertise!
Name ten commonly purchased items which are not manufactured by, assembled by, transported by, wholesaled by, or sold by companies who advertise. From motor oil to Mazaratis, asparagus to zuchini, corn to corn liquor, almost every consumer item bears a significant advertising burden.

$35 for a DVR, that must be a record.
It may or may not be. Nonethless, it is how much my bill increased. Note officially the DVR is $9.95 a month, but in order to get it one must also have the digital tier and HD tier. The non-HD DVR is also $9.95 a month plus the digital tier, but not the HD tier. With my own DVR, I avoid the digital tier, but not the HD tier.

Between that and the $10K you pay for advertising, you must live in a very expensive area.
Not particularly, depending of course upon what expense item we are discussing. On the other hand, I am considering dumping Time Warner and going with the local competitor. It would save me $75 a month for the same level of service (I've checked). I don't know if they charge less for their HD DVRs, or not, but then I don't really care what anyone charges for their DVRs. I have TiVos.

That's a great deal, where could I get $5.12/mo average pricing for my Tivos?
The same way I did. I already detailed it. Lifetime service on a Series I transferred to a Series III and 3 year multiple box service on a second Series III.

Perhaps you have a plan not available to everyone?
Yes, lifetime service was available only for a limited time. I'm not going to apologize for that. I can also get a much better deal on my cable if I were to disconnect for a month and then get service again, or go with their competitor (Grande). As I mentioned, I may do just that.

Yes, multiple service discounts are only available to those with multiple TiVos, but volume discounts are common in industry. I imagine many consumers also have multiple Cable Company DVRs. I know most have multiple televisions. I also know many people have multiple TiVos. (Oh, just by the way, the cost here for the first HD DVR may be higher than elsewhere, but the cost ofr two, three, or four HD DVRs is less - it's a marketing thing.)

I suppose it's easy accuse others of "grousing" about the cost when you never have to pay another service fee for your S3.
I took advantage when it was offered. You did not. How is that TiVo's fault? (And I do pay a monthly service fee of $6.95 for my second TiVo.)

At least the money you save on Tivo service fees can help make up for that $10,000 stolen by Network Television. :rolleyes:
Hardly. Nor does it make a dent in the $9000 I was forced to give up in local taxes, the $2500 in state taxes, or the $45,000 in federal taxes. If I were going to grouse, it would be about one of them, not a couple of hundred bucks laid out voluntarily to TiVo.