How many gave up on CableCARD and returned TiVo [Text View]

RavenFan

08-07-2007, 12:07 AM

I'm curious how many people gave up and returned their Series 3 (original and newer TiVoHD) after failed CableCARD installations.

I have seen an old poll "How did your CableCARD install go" which was interesting, but tackled the question from a different angle.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=317247

I'm more interested in how many sales TiVo has lost due to Cable company incompetence and hostility toward CableCARDs. I am currently fighting this battle myself and am curious about the experiences of others who decided to give up. What was your breaking point?

I also know that this poll will be a bit biased because members of this forum probably had a better success rate than some of the general public.

mike_camden

08-07-2007, 07:35 AM

I'll vote Thursday -- if it's not fixed by then or if I don't have some indication from Tivo or Comcast that all will be OK, mine goes back to CC.

bicker

08-07-2007, 08:06 AM

Thanks for providing a choice option just for ME. :)

Adam1115

08-07-2007, 10:21 AM

What, no option for giving up and keeping your tivo for OTA?? :P

Chimpware

08-07-2007, 10:25 AM

What, no option for giving up and keeping your tivo for OTA?? :P

Stop you are making me feel sad inside...

GoHokies!

08-07-2007, 10:40 AM

RavenFan

08-07-2007, 11:18 AM

What, no option for giving up and keeping your tivo for OTA?? :P

I didn't even think of that option, although keeping the TiVo for OTA does not cost TiVo a customer.

mike_camden

08-07-2007, 11:43 AM

Wow, that's pretty striking - (at this point) 40 trouble free installs and 12 difficult ones (7 of which eventually were made to work).

Who is it that said cablecards were not a good solution again? :D
Based on what I've been told several times over the past few days, it's Comcast saying that cablecards are not a good solution. Go figure that they wouldn't want it to work :rolleyes:

bicker

08-07-2007, 11:53 AM

Actually, the poll results don't represent very good odds. I don't think the actual numbers are as bad as the poll indicates.

mike_camden

08-07-2007, 01:12 PM

Actually, the poll results don't represent very good odds. I don't think the actual numbers are as bad as the poll indicates.
Based on all that I have witnessed and observed in a very small subset of Comcast (so my experiences with Comcast, Pittsburgh, PA in and of themselves can't necessarily be applied to all markets that they serve) I'm sure it is a pretty significant issue in this region for anyone getting a Tivo Series 3 or HD. My sample size is limited, but through three dispatchers, four CSRs, three CSR supervisors, and two technicians (one contracted and one employed), not a single one had ever received cable card training, had no idea how to properly install a cable card, and didn't have anyone in their immediate vicinity or via phone that they could call to make it work.

IF (and I stress if, but it seems possible based on how widespread similar issues seem from looking at the locations of people on this board having issues) this is the case nation-wide (at least with Comcast), that makes for a pretty bad case of dropping the ball by Comcast (and basically thumbing their nose at the FCC). It also makes it a difficult situation for Tivo since they are marketing the TivoHD as a more mainstream alternative to the cable provider's box.

jmpage2

08-07-2007, 01:17 PM

Well, my experience to date;

1. Schedule 1st appointment because I am told that I can't get cablecards locally.

2. 2nd person tells me I can pick them up so I foolishly cancel the appointment and drive 10 miles to pick up cable cards. Comcast office tells me I can't pick up cable cards, that they don't do "self install" kits for them even though someone else confirmed in the computer that they do.

3. re-schedule my appointment.

4. Comcast misses the appointment. I get an apology call, a waiver of the install fee and am told that the tech will be here "first thing" the next day.

5. Comcast still isn't here. 2nd day off from work waiting on these morons to show up and do their job. I was told they have till noon to make the appointment today. It's 11:15 now. If they aren't here by noon I am going to start calling them and make them miserable.

Realize that all of this has occurred before a tech has even shown up. For all I know the idiot will show up and have never installed a CC before. Or, better yet, he will get it 1/2 installed and insist it is working right and to call Tivo for help.

oldnacl

08-07-2007, 01:34 PM

Also keep in mind the wide variation in CC fees - that was the straw that broke my camel's back when, after having my S3 work three months with a CC rental of $5.50/mo, Comcast deauthorized my cards and raised the price to $17.90/mo. I would perhaps have stuck it out if I hadn't taken off work 3 times for technicians to make phone calls from my house without getting the cards properly reconfigured. I returned the S3 and ate the 3 year prepaid subscription. However, if the M card becomes available in my market and the redundant charges for the two cable cards gets removed, AND if the pixelation problem gets resolved, I will likely buy a Series 3 or TiVo HD again to use up my subscription.

yunlin12

08-07-2007, 02:03 PM

Wow, that sounds really bad. In my area originally Comcast were charging $6.99 add outlet fee for 2 S-cards, but then they added a $1.50 dual-cable-card charge, removed the add outlet, then they added again a $7 HDTV service fee, which they claim that they can't remove even if I don't use cable (antenna instead) for HDTV, saying it's tied to the dual cable card charge.

Is there any wording in FCC's cable card mandate, that cable co's should charge a reasonable fee for this? $17.9/mo seems a little too crazy seeing that their own boxes don't even cost that much.

jmpage2

08-07-2007, 02:44 PM

RavenFan

08-07-2007, 03:12 PM

It sure seems like the cable companies are using a lot of manpower to make sure that we have a difficult time with the cable cards. Mandating technician visits, countless hours on the phone, repeat tech visits.

Can it be all that difficult to train people - at least the ones at the head end configuring the accounts?

mph005

08-07-2007, 05:02 PM

Still have over 2 weeks left on my return period.

I still have channels missing that i'm supposed to get, but it's a problem that Time Warner knows about, yet doesn't have a solution.

I don't blame Tivo for my problems, but Time Warner. If things don't get worked out soon, the Tivo goes back (sorry, Tivo), and Time Warner is being dumped for whatever replacement I can find (Sat or possibly U-Verse that's coming here in 3 months).

RavenFan

08-07-2007, 05:37 PM

I can finally respond to my own poll.

It took a lot of work, but it finally worked.

I have not had a chance to check every channel yet, but I have scanned the ones that are most important to me, and some that are not. (I just saw that Little House Full of Blind Kids on the Prairie is on Hallmark...again. )

megazone

08-07-2007, 09:07 PM

There are also people who are having problems but have not returned it, since there is a 30-day window on returns and TiVo still has time to fix the issues. No point in dealing with a premature return.

DocNo

08-07-2007, 09:51 PM

IF (and I stress if, but it seems possible based on how widespread similar issues seem from looking at the locations of people on this board having issues) this is the case nation-wide (at least with Comcast), that makes for a pretty bad case of dropping the ball by Comcast (and basically thumbing their nose at the FCC).

Don't bother trying to reason with bicker - in his world the cable companies can do no wrong and those of us who haven't had smooth sailing are the problem, not the cable companies :rolleyes:

I've had two people PM me for contact info for competent CSR's and installers in my area. That's pretty bad, when you consider the amount of people who will ever own a Tivo and visit this forum are probably in the vast minority.

Thumbing their nose at cable card and the FCC is accurate based on Comcast's (in)actions. Words are cheap...

wmcbrine

08-07-2007, 10:23 PM

I feel there should be an option "it took a little work"; I'd have voted for that. Instead, I voted for "no real problems".

The main problem I had, with Verizon Fios, was just getting them to bring the damn things. The first installer left, having done nothing except spend a long time on hold with his office, because he didn't bring the cards. The next installer didn't have them, either, but managed to get his supervisor to bring them out. After that, it was straightforward, except that he apparently transposed some digits, and one of the cards (I discovered the next day) wasn't properly activated. I called in, and miraculously got someone to fix it immediately. This left me with an amazing impression of their customer service... which, however, was not to last... but that's another story.

MickeS

08-07-2007, 11:23 PM

You forgot the "I didn't want to deal with it, so I never even tried" option. :)

jfh3

08-08-2007, 03:35 AM

The technician finally showed up, but didn't have an M card and called all around to supervisors, etc, and noone else knew about them either.

He's going to dig a little further for me so that I can get a definitive answer on why others in CO have reported getting M-cards installed and noone seems to know anything about them.

At least one of the distribution centers in Colorado will supposedly have stock of M-cards this Friday. I'll post when I get confirmation (e.g. I have some of them in my hands)

bown

08-08-2007, 07:20 AM

OK, why is there a "Just checking the poll results" entry? Wouldn't it make more sense to just click on the "view poll results" link instead of skewing the percentages?

bicker

08-08-2007, 08:48 AM

It sure seems like the cable companies are using a lot of manpower to make sure that we have a difficult time with the cable cards. Which practically proves that that's not the case. Training isn't the issue. The problem is that the technology isn't very robust.

bicker

08-08-2007, 08:53 AM

Don't bother trying to reason with bicker - in his world the cable companies can do no wrong and those of us who haven't had smooth sailing are the problem, not the cable companies :rolleyes: That's idiocy. My only interest is in reality. The cable companies in my state are trying to defeat the cable competition bill, which I support. Beyond that, I am one of the people who didn't have smooth sailing. And I don't blame myself, or anyone else. I blame the technology. I blame Motorola and Scientific Atlanta.

Here; have some of these: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

bicker

08-08-2007, 08:55 AM

You forgot the "I didn't want to deal with it, so I never even tried" option. :)That's a really good point. Maybe the main point. It has to be easy for all involved (subscriber, cable company, CE manufacturer, infrastructure manufacturer) in order to be successful.

jmpage2

08-08-2007, 10:23 AM

At least one of the distribution centers in Colorado will supposedly have stock of M-cards this Friday. I'll post when I get confirmation (e.g. I have some of them in my hands)

Can you send me a PM with some more info on this like Comcast's part number, etc? The installer was a nice guy but seemed a bit overwhelmed with getting the info.

RavenFan

08-08-2007, 02:09 PM

Which practically proves that that's not the case. Training isn't the issue. The problem is that the technology isn't very robust.

It just seems like they are wasting manpower when you consider that they have people at the head-end that refuse to enter the appropriate numbers into the computer - numbers that people can easily provide on their own. I am assuming that if I can read numbers from a screen, the people on the other end should be willing and able to type them.

Also, requiring a tech to visit the house a second time just to read the numbers to a different head-end person seems like a waste of time and money. I was not charged for the tech visit for the 2nd trip, so it was again a waste of money due to a lack of training the first 2 times I tried to get the thing activated.

Also, I spent several hours on the phone trying to convince people that it was necessary to pair the card to my device. With a little training, or at least a handy online procedure, this would have been resolved much more quickly. Needless use of manpower is a ridiculous cost for a company.

mike_camden

08-08-2007, 03:56 PM

It just seems like they are wasting manpower when you consider that they have people at the head-end that refuse to enter the appropriate numbers into the computer - numbers that people can easily provide on their own. I am assuming that if I can read numbers from a screen, the people on the other end should be willing and able to type them.

Also, requiring a tech to visit the house a second time just to read the numbers to a different head-end person seems like a waste of time and money. I was not charged for the tech visit for the 2nd trip, so it was again a waste of money due to a lack of training the first 2 times I tried to get the thing activated.

Also, I spent several hours on the phone trying to convince people that it was necessary to pair the card to my device. With a little training, or at least a handy online procedure, this would have been resolved much more quickly. Needless use of manpower is a ridiculous cost for a company.
:up: :up: :up:

wmcbrine

08-08-2007, 04:26 PM

OK, why is there a "Just checking the poll results" entry? Wouldn't it make more sense to just click on the "view poll results" link instead of skewing the percentages?+1

I look at it as a moron counter... up to 58 as I post. :D

thumper256

08-08-2007, 04:39 PM

Comcast (SF Bay area) was able to install my 2 cable cards successfully on the fist try in under 30 minutes. The installer told me that he was told to clear his other appointments because the cable card install would most likely take the rest of the day. He installed the cards and ran through the pairing process. He then said that it would take at least 2 hours for the needed information to be downloaded to the cards. After 10 minutes he checked the progress and found that both cards fully working.

I have only had one problem since where one of the cards stopped working. I rebooted the Tivo and the problem cleared.

RavenFan

08-08-2007, 07:50 PM

+1

I look at it as a moron counter... up to 58 as I post. :D

Yep...I'm a moron for including "Just checking results." I should have noticed that there was an option to view the results without voting. My bad. I actually realized this right after I posted, but it was too late by then.

I always had a problem with internet polls that I have seen that don't allow you to see the results if you don't vote, thus tainting the results. Now I know that this is not a problem on this forum.

wmcbrine

08-08-2007, 08:08 PM

The thing is, people actually do vote just to see the results, even here. They've said so. So, in a way, it's a valid option to include...

RavenFan

08-08-2007, 08:25 PM

That's a really good point. Maybe the main point. It has to be easy for all involved (subscriber, cable company, CE manufacturer, infrastructure manufacturer) in order to be successful.

I completely agree with you here. All parties do need to make the entire CableCARD experience easier.

It probably starts with Cable Labs and the design of the card's interface. Just looking at the standard status displays of the CableCARD make me scratch my head and go "Huh?" I am a software engineer, and these debug screens with HEX numbers and meaningless abbreviations and acronyms look like the messages used by the engineers to debug the software, not the type that make it easy to diagnose problems in the field.

CE Manufacturers have dropped the ball as well. While it does not sound like the majority of problems are with the CC-enabled devices, it does seem to me like the Sonys, Panasonics, TiVos of the world could better educate the consumer on the benefit of having a CableCARD and having fewer boxes and remote controls. I don't believe most consumers even know what a CableCARD is, or that they can get digital cable without a box. A TV advertised as "Digital Cable Ready" could be interpreted as "it is ready to work with my cable box." Only the CE companies can educate consumers to drive demand enough to force better efficiency in the infrastructure.

Finally, the cable oligopoly needs to cooperate. Competition will help by providing a consumer with a legitimate option to switch providers, but ultimately the cable providers need have a reason to act more like a competitive industry and try to improve their efficiency. Right now they have a license to print money. There is currently no need to provide consistent, efficient customer service. No need to efficiently manage manpower in the call centers and among technicians.

I am making assumptions, but it seems like training of cable personnel is a low priority. Employees don't even need to be trained to know the answer to every question, but they should know how to find an answer to every question. How many hours are wasted by unnecessary technician visits or long phone calls? Some calls go well now, but many are answered with an "I don't know", "you can't do that", or "your signal is bad".

This turned into a long rant, but it seems that all parties need to improve. The world is changing quickly. Hopefully the changes lead to more choices for the consumer which should inevitably improve both customer service and product quality.

ronnieko

08-08-2007, 10:39 PM

Based on all that I have witnessed and observed in a very small subset of Comcast (so my experiences with Comcast, Pittsburgh, PA in and of themselves can't necessarily be applied to all markets that they serve) I'm sure it is a pretty significant issue in this region for anyone getting a Tivo Series 3 or HD. My sample size is limited, but through three dispatchers, four CSRs, three CSR supervisors, and two technicians (one contracted and one employed), not a single one had ever received cable card training, had no idea how to properly install a cable card, and didn't have anyone in their immediate vicinity or via phone that they could call to make it work.

Mike, you must be the only other Series 3 owner in the Pittsburgh area. What part of Pittsburgh? I am 20 miles north of Pittsburgh... Message me...
The 2 techs that came to my place (2 different times) had NO idea what those cable cards were, and one of them were told on the phone by someone that was supposed to help us (after being on hold for 40 min), she said NOPE cable cards will NOT with with TiVo....
But finally, after he called other workers we go it set up.
Except HBO was only working on one card. That was when the other guy came out a week later, what a project just getting it all setup...
But now it all works real nice!

mightyse

08-09-2007, 12:31 AM

Sad, Supposed to be installed on the 4th. Cable guy showed up a hour late with no cable cards, called his supervisor who said he would be there in hour with the cards. He showed up four hours later with one cable card it failed, said he would return on 6th with new cards. Showed up at 7 PM with two cable cards they failed with the firmware error, said he would return the next day. Well it is been two days no cable guy and no cards. Called Tivo cancelled the account and it will be a cold day in hell before I ever deal with Cox. I still have S2 with lifetime. Not tivo fault the box worked flawlessy with OT ant.

DocNo

08-11-2007, 04:38 PM

Which practically proves that that's not the case. Training isn't the issue. The problem is that the technology isn't very robust.

And that's a laugh - the technology works just fine! When I finally got a tech and a person at the head end who knew what they were doing, my S3 was up in less than an hour! The actual time from when the tech talked with the head end person to I had both cable cards unscrambled was less than 20 minutes. So much for the not too robust argument :p

If you read these threads closely, the real problem is the cable companies billing systems. Many times people will get the cards up, and then have to hassle with channels that are missing. That's not cable card, thats their account management systems. That's the reason my cards didn't come up correctly the first time - the cable card wasn't encoded right in the billing system. It took me far longer, once I found someone who obviously knew what they were doing with the billing system, to get my account straightened out (a little over two hours) than it did to get the cable cards operational. I think that fact often gets overlooked since the two are so inter-dependant on me.

Unless you are going to tell me SA and Motorola also write cable customer management systems :rolleyes:

And I had just as much fun trying to get my billing straight when I first set my account up five years ago and had no HD, digital cable or cable card - so no, you can't blame the cable companies ineptness on the evil cable card for that one.

:rolleyes: right back at ya...

bicker

08-12-2007, 07:47 AM

And that's a laugh - the technology works just fine!Did you read what I wrote before you replied to it? Do you know what the word "robust" means in the realm of electrical engineering? :rolleyes:

alansplace

08-12-2007, 08:14 PM

not me, i love my new TiVo HD with 2 motorola cablecards (southern california time warner)!!
--
Alan :D

DocNo

08-12-2007, 08:25 PM

Did you read what I wrote before you replied to it? Do you know what the word "robust" means in the realm of electrical engineering? :rolleyes:

The only thing not robust is my local cable plants maintenance. Once my signal was within spec (and actually, it was a little out, but a lot better than when I started) the cable card came right up.

So, now your telling me Cable Card is supposed to correct for all the other parts of the cable system too?

Give me a break.

Engineering something is one thing - but if you don't maintain your system within spec, all the engineering in the world isn't going to matter.

Again, it's not a technical problem, but a process problem.

I look at this like the illegal alien problem. Direct analogy - we don't need more laws, just more enforcement of the ones we have. Same with cable card - we don't need engineering, just "playing by the rules" of the engineering that's been done. It obviously works when it's done correctly. The cable companies don't want to do it correctly. It's not in their best interest.

At some point you just have to stop with the lip service and do it.

AbMagFab

08-12-2007, 10:02 PM

How about "It took a lot of work, and it's still not working properly, but it's good enough for me to keep it"?

ZeoTiVo

08-12-2007, 11:45 PM

Did you read what I wrote before you replied to it? Do you know what the word "robust" means in the realm of electrical engineering? :rolleyes:
I think it is the cable companies who do not understand what the word robust means and have been operating on just good enough for far too long now. It is time to get off their rotund butts and get their cable plant up to spec adn their processes documented correctly.

Just looking at the fact that some cable systems are getting the cards working with little hassle while other systems are having many process caused issues and still others are having signal strength issues bears out the main fault lies with cable companies

bicker

08-13-2007, 07:16 AM

The only thing not robust is my local cable plants maintenance. So, in other words, you DON'T know what the word "robust" means in terms of electrical engineering. Thanks for clarifying that. :rolleyes:

bicker

08-13-2007, 07:19 AM

It is time to get off their rotund buttsYou're frustrated; maybe angry. I get that. However, the reality is that they work their tails off to try to get these flaky cards to work. I wonder how many of these suckers get sent back to Motorola each day because they don't work.

GoHokies!

08-13-2007, 11:52 AM

You're frustrated; maybe angry. I get that. However, the reality is that they work their tails off to try to get these flaky cards to work. I wonder how many of these suckers get sent back to Motorola each day because they don't work.Maybe that's the case where you live. Down here, that just isn't the case. How many install stories have we read around here that included the tech having to make multiple phone calls to try and find the "cable card person". Not so they can make use of their extensive technical expertise, but so they can properly set up the account and send a hit out to the cards. That isn't a complicated process, but the cable companies don't train their people to do it. There certainly are *some* hardware problems with flakey cards (some of which I'm sure are improper setup issues with the cards, and not the fault of the cards themselves), but it seems that just as many (if not more) cablecard issues that we see here can be corrected by a few hours of simple training.

jfh3

08-13-2007, 12:15 PM

You're frustrated; maybe angry. I get that. However, the reality is that they work their tails off to try to get these flaky cards to work. I wonder how many of these suckers get sent back to Motorola each day because they don't work.

Actual hardware failure for CableCARDs is quite rare. Most don't work because:
(a) the operator (MSO) hasn't provisioned them properly
(b) they have been bricked by improper firmware load (e.g. pull the card from a host before fw update is complete

The vast majority of CableCARD "problems" are because the MSO doesn't provision, pair or validate the cards properly - all software, all controlled by the MSO.

DasRaven@

08-13-2007, 02:34 PM

I had my TivoHD for all of one week. Major tiling and lockups on both cablecards. Still waiting for my service refund.

A shame, I really liked the interface and would've gladly kept it if it had been able to tune/display my channels properly.

DocNo

08-13-2007, 05:41 PM

So, in other words, you DON'T know what the word "robust" means in terms of electrical engineering. Thanks for clarifying that. :rolleyes:

No, you have a propensity for being obtuse when you are in an indefensible position.

Here, let's try again...

Mechanic to Bicker - "Sir, your engine froze because it was too low on oil"

Bicker - "Ridiculous! The engine just wasn't robust enough!"

:rolleyes:

DocNo

08-13-2007, 05:47 PM

\How many install stories have we read around here that included the tech having to make multiple phone calls to try and find the "cable card person".

Now don't go showing the emperor has no clothes! That's not fair!

That isn't a complicated process, but the cable companies don't train their people to do it.

Bingo. Why Bicker insists on having his proverbial head in the sand over this is beyond me.

Want to know why two of the replacement cards the fourth tech had with him didn't work at all? They hadn't been initialized properly in the office, yet they were issued for a customer install.

That's not a cable card technology problem, it's a process problem. And a pretty abysmal one for supposedly professional organizations!

But as a customer I'm not supposed to be pissed that they are not only wasting my time but their employee's time? Give me a break.

People talk about Macintosh users being fanatical and drinking the cool aid - what the heck did the cable companies do to get such an apologist like Bicker?