An outside the box idea... (how feasible?)

[EndBoards]

I've been thinking about different options & workarounds for the lack of MRV, and thought of something that might be avenue for Tivo (or someone) to explore. Why not change the whole architecture of the DVR? Instead of a set top architecture, go with more of a server/client(s) architecture..

Start with a centralized "dvr server" containing say 3 cablecard tuners - basically an S3-and-a-half in a single box. This server streams content to nodes located throughout the house. The nodes convert this stream to A/V output for whatever display/sound systems you have and also receive commands from remotes.

I got the idea from the slingbox type distribution systems that send component video and IR commands over Cat5. You can achieve a form of MRV with this system and a pair of DVR's, but you still have to manage and switch between two independent DVR's. So why not integrate the whole thing? One DVR that can show multiple sessions anywhere in the home.

Drawbacks: Obviously, I'd guess that it would take a pretty powerful server, not to mention Cat5 throughout your home, and maybe a gigabit network. To satisfy CableLabs you'd probably still have to convert protected content to analog before streaming...

Benefits: One DVR to manage, content is viewable anywhere in the house, enough tuners to satisfy most families, no files to transfer, no STB to deal with... You could also go to a more user based rather than location based management scheme. Instead of "living room", "bedroom", etc.. A user selects his name and sees his own shows, channel lists, configuration options, etc... These options carry to whatever node he happens to be using at the time..

Ok... fire away..

[ajwees41]

I've been thinking about different options & workarounds for the lack of MRV, and thought of something that might be avenue for Tivo (or someone) to explore. Why not change the whole architecture of the DVR? Instead of a set top architecture, go with more of a server/client(s) architecture..

Start with a centralized "dvr server" containing say 3 cablecard tuners - basically an S3-and-a-half in a single box. This server streams content to nodes located throughout the house. The nodes convert this stream to A/V output for whatever display/sound systems you have and also receive commands from remotes.

I got the idea from the slingbox type distribution systems that send component video and IR commands over Cat5. You can achieve a form of MRV with this system and a pair of DVR's, but you still have to manage and switch between two independent DVR's. So why not integrate the whole thing? One DVR that can show multiple sessions anywhere in the home.

Drawbacks: Obviously, I'd guess that it would take a pretty powerful server, not to mention Cat5 throughout your home, and maybe a gigabit network. To satisfy CableLabs you'd probably still have to convert protected content to analog before streaming...

Benefits: One DVR to manage, content is viewable anywhere in the house, enough tuners to satisfy most families, no files to transfer, no STB to deal with... You could also go to a more user based rather than location based management scheme. Instead of "living room", "bedroom", etc.. A user selects his name and sees his own shows, channel lists, configuration options, etc... These options carry to whatever node he happens to be using at the time..

Ok... fire away..

It is already being done in some cable areas. with cable equipment.

ajwees41

[GoHokies!]

Not a bad idea, that.

Not everyone wants to (or has the ability to) have network cables around, and moving HD in realtime could be a problem.

I think that Diego is working on something like this, but don't remember the details.

[ZeoTiVo]

the streaming would take care of cablelab objections.

but why make for new equipment.

I would think that instead of copying the whole show over - which is the big cablelabs objection - that TiVo could just bring over part of the show, say a 15 minute buffer and that moves along as you watch the show. You have trick play within that buffer and when the show is done or after some time period you can not see it on the second TiVo but would have to reinitiate "the stream" from the first TiVo again

[EndBoards]

If I understand correctly, CableLabs' hangup isn't so much "streaming vs. moving" as it is protected content leaving a particular box in digital form.

Why make for new equipment? Simple: Having user-based management and a single DVR to manage seems significantly more convenient (to me anyway).

GH is right.. The need for Cat5 is a drawback. As far as bandwidth goes, there's always the possibility of compressing the stream before it leaves the server then decompressing it at the other end.. Again.. just throwing ideas around..

[vstone]

The SA8300HD is designed to do that, although in that application I believe it has a slightly different model number. Last time I brought up the diagnostics on mine, I noticed switches for this. In this application this is similar to a Windows Server accessing its on web server like other PCs on the network would - i.e. the server is also being used as a workstation. In the case of the SA8300HD, it is being used as a server and DVR, and other STB's (non-DVR, I believe) access the server.

This is also doable with XP MCE with an Media Extension Box (or whatever they call them). The same capability is available on Vista, but the only client is the XBOX. Guess what: I don't want no stinkin' XBOX! (I don't play games, but my hats off to those who do - they push the envelope).

[ZeoTiVo]

The Comcast motorolla boxes will have streaming ability and once that is in palce the TiVo software will have a UI to support that.

Streaming between DVrs at various places in the house will work. Also I think the Moto streaming is over the coax. No idea if it is HD streaming though.

with my part of the show at a time idea I was wondering if cable labs would allow that since the whole show is never on the other DVR at any one time. Just another way to keep cable labs happy perhaps without TiVo having to do major rewrites

[sjcbulldog]

Myself, and several others i know are effectively already doing this with HD off the air tuners, and using a cable box for a tuner for non-HD content. I have played with a center media server that has four total tuners with a large amount of disk space. I am running Windows Vista Media Center with a Microsoft xbox 360 used as a media center extender. I also use the add-in package called MyMovies and have ripped my DVD collection to the server as well. My music is all ripped to this same server and my pictures are all stored here as well. The media is all served both through the Media Center, and just through Window Media sharing. I have not "released" this to the rest of the family as the primary way to perform DVR functions, as I have Tivos in each of the rooms with TVs. I do have 1 gig ethernet between the media server (which is in my office) and the rooms with the TVs.

For the most part it was a pretty nice setup which is why I think Tivo should beware of where Microsoft is heading. There is also no monthly cost for the media center setup. The missing pieces were a cablelabs approved tuner card that could stream video to the various Windows Media extenders in the house; however this is on the way. Also, currently, the average user could not get all of this setup without help (especially MyMovies and the associated codecs needed to stream to the extender in a format it undestands). So while there is a ways yet to go to get all of this working together smoothly (especially with the ripped DVDs), it is getting closer. Once it is done, all of my content in the house as well as what was recorded via the various tuners is available for use.

The bad thing here for Tivo, is that if MRV was on the horizon at all, I wouild not be spending calories to look at this. With MRV, the Tivo + Galleon is more functional, and easier to setup than the Window Media Center solution. If the Tivo had MRV then I could live without the HD streaming capability and be happy with access to all of my videos, DVDs, pictures, music, and tuner recorded content via Galleon and Tivo.

Just my $0.02 worth
sjcbulldog

[ADent]

DirecTV was supposed to have a four tuner HD box that could then feed more regular units.

[TexasGrillChef]

Two companies provide similar type solutions. They only serve MOVIES and do NOT have DVR functionality in them

I have had YOUR idea for sometime. As I have the Avionix MOVIE system. It would be simple enough to COMBINE both TIVO & the AVIONIX into one unit. However the legalities of that with CABLECARDS & Cablelabs is another issue all together.

Here is the link for AVIONIX MOVIE SERVERS.... http://axonix.com/

Kalaidascape is the other company that provides MOVIE servers. http://www.kaleidescape.com/

check em out and see what ya think.

TexasGrillChef

P.S.
The AVionix system which I have is fantastic. The servers allow for Firewire &/or USB Hard Drive upgrades.

THey also now have HD-DVD support and soon to have Blu-ray support as well.

[captain_video]

Verizon already has such a setup but it only works with standard definition programming. They're working on a method to stream HD content throughout the house but it may be a while before we see it.

The company someone referred to as "Diego" is actually called Digeo (perhaps they're manufactured in Mexico, just like our Tivos :D ). They're the ones that developed the Moxi Box and have a new product that's supposed to be introduced in the upcoming months. It's a dual-tuner DVR with cablecards and a built-in DVD player. Here's a press release with more info:

http://www.digeo.com/press_pressrelease.aspx?id=5

The press release doesn't mention anything about the DVD player but the one shown at the CES had the integrated player. Perhaps they've changed the design and removed the player. Here's a link with photos:

http://www.digeo.com/tech.aspx

The one in the upper right is the model I'm referring to. The DVD player is a slot-load model and you can clearly see the slot in the photo.

[snathanb]

Such as distribution system was also in the works on the short-lived VOOM HD satellite service.

[EndBoards]

wow.. sounds like in about 6-10 months this will be a fairly feasible solution.

Compliments to sjb - your setup sounds excellent. Do you have a website or some other resource where I can learn more about what you've done? Perhaps a good MCE forum? And I also agree with you - if Tivo had HME enabled on S3 I wouldn't even be looking into this..

To me personally, the missing hardware pieces are a non X-box MC extender and CableLabs approved tuner cards - hopefully 2 way capable to be compatible with SDV... If those were on the market, I'd start working on a setup today.

[Justin Thyme]

I'm just wondering why streaming seems appealing to folks.

When the central unit goes down, or the network gets flakey, all the TVs are busted.

From a reliability engineering standpoint, the centralized plan of all eggs in one basket is foolhardy. I have reduced my options to a single path of success. Alternately in a decentralized solution, If a hard drive fails or the network goes down on one device, I can simply go to another room.

If any component goes down on the centralized device, you are SOL until you have time to fix the centralized device. You are also in a vulnerable situation because if there is some time critical function (like the big game, or wifey wants to record the final episode of the soap), then to achieve success I must pay some guy big bucks using overpriced parts to fix it fast.

But maybe streaming seems more "live" and that has an inherent appeal- the sense of immediacy and all. I dunno- it just seems more unresponsive at FF/REW/skipping, flakeyness with MPEG4, and oriented to single point of failure.

[davew723]

I'm just wondering why streaming seems appealing to folks.

I think MVR (transfer, not streaming) is better for content recorded by the Tivo Tuner between Tivos. Its the right solution for that application.

Although I would really love to see streaming content made available on the Tivo by an HME update. I see it more as an additional content source similar to renting movies from unbox. Althought this content would initially not be stored long term. Just cached until a stream/channel change. Having the ability to view/download from some of the following direct streams mpg2/mpg4/h.264/wmv/divx or via flash/silverlight would be huge for Tivo. Content providers like YouTube could easily create their own HME plugin and Tivo would get to collect their typical month service fees. YouTube is not the only content source. There are lots of video sources. Another example is http://wwitv.com. I can see a HME plugin for this site and many more. Or Channels like the Home Shopping Network might want their own HME plugin where they could show the live video stream. Embedded in the stream is VBI/script content that could be parsed by the HME add and provide the option to make direct secure purchases via the Tivo HME app along side the video.

Streaming in my mind just opens additional content which Tivo needs to stay competitive.

Tivo should take some baby steps toward open streaming. Allow viewing it but not storing it, to avoid copyright issues. Only open up a couple formats at the start. Maybe just mpg2/4 at the start or what ever is easy. The next step would be to create a better Tivo partner program where vendors could certify the DRM on the content to store the content longer term, similar to unbox.

[EndBoards]

From a reliability engineering standpoint, the centralized plan of all eggs in one basket is foolhardy. I have reduced my options to a single path of success. Alternately in a decentralized solution, If a hard drive fails or the network goes down on one device, I can simply go to another room.
Yes, you can go to another room, but you can't view anything on the failed box.

If any component goes down on the centralized device, you are SOL until you have time to fix the centralized device. You are also in a vulnerable situation because if there is some time critical function (like the big game, or wifey wants to record the final episode of the soap), then to achieve success I must pay some guy big bucks using overpriced parts to fix it fast.
None of this concerns me. In all my years of working with PC's, both at home and at the office, using both low-end and high-end products, I can remember a total of 3 hardware failures... I've built several PC's from scratch and I know where to get good prices on quality components. Anything I buy or build will have plenty of redundancy built in. And personally, there is very little on TV that I'd ever define as "critical".. Maybe a few sporting events per year, and really only if my teams are playing.. As far as the wife goes, nearly everything she's interested in is available online - some at a better quality than we get from our cable operator.

There are also benefits to centralization. Easier management. Half the hardware = half the components that could fail. Flexibility in the location and appearance of your devices.

But maybe streaming seems more "live" and that has an inherent appeal- the sense of immediacy and all. I dunno- it just seems more unresponsive at FF/REW/skipping, flakeyness with MPEG4, and oriented to single point of failure.
We're talking about streaming recorded content, so a "live" feeling doesn't seem relevant. I use the low-end slingbox over my 10/100 LAN at home and it's pretty responsive remote-wise.. Though I would hope for better..

Streaming in itself has no appeal. The appeal is that (right now) it's the only way to get what we want - a well integrated and modular system that allows you to time and place shift all of the various forms of content in the home. If that was achievable with a more distributed system of transferring between boxes, then I'd probably go that route. In fact, the ideal solution in my mind would be if the extenders had a good sized (say 5GB) buffer that would allow faster local response and be less susceptible to network issues..

[EndBoards]

woah.. streaming content off the internet isn't at all what I'm talking about.. (Actually "we" rather than "I" since it's obviously not a new idea)

The idea is to record normal Cable TV content to a "master" or "server" DVR that lives in a closet in my home. That DVR distributes the content on demand (streaming appears to be all that's acceptable to CableLabs) over my own LAN to one or more small local boxes also within my home. Those boxes sent component video (or maybe HDMI eventually) to my local A/V system.

[ZeoTiVo]

I'm just wondering why streaming seems appealing to folks.
I am fine with streaming but as a way to view shows between components placed at each TV. I would rather have multiple units in the house to easily deal with failures and for shows I really do not want to miss I typically set them to record on 2 different units.

[vstone]

I am fine with streaming but as a way to view shows between components placed at each TV. I would rather have multiple units in the house to easily deal with failures and for shows I really do not want to miss I typically set them to record on 2 different units.I agree.

Consider the following true tale: At a vacation home, ER is coming in poorly. Of course I have to make it better, the end result being no ER at all. Better half is not amused for several years. I know its only TV and she knows its only TV, but one point of failure can get you in the doghouse and eventually cost you a big rock!

Having missed severl season/series finales due to the cable comp. DVR, I say let's go for a graceful/gradual loss of services, not a complete one. (of course, the lightening strikes the house - and all bets are off!)

[sjcbulldog]

A good site for looking at Windows Vista Media Center Edition is http://www.thegreenbutton.com/.

As to single point failures, if you have the right machine with the right air flow and the right UPS (or surge protection), you find that computers go for a long time without failure. While I agree that the single Tivo box will last even longer, for me the tradeoff of less infrequent failures is worth the convinence of all of the media in a single place.

As to streaming, the big issue for me is not streaming per se, but the ability to watch any moving I want immediately from its storage repository without a delay of minutes or hours to start. It does not matter if it is truely streaming, or being xfer'ed to a local hard disk and played from there, as long as I can start watching that show I want within at least a couple of minutes. This implies that the bandwidth must be there to "stream" HD content in real time.

Just my $0.02 worth
Sjcbulldog

[Justin Thyme]

Well, I am familiar with setting up reliable systems, and I do have the benefit of centralization. I have a 3.5 TB server running XP with a couple thousand shows stored in MP4 and DivX format that are served to the Tivos using pyTivo.

I have a DivX player (IOData LinkPlayer) that accepts these shows in streamed form, but I prefer transfer to streaming. With Tivo MRV, it is true that I lose access to the shows on the Tivo or server that goes down. But it is a graceful and minor degradation. Since the Tivo we watch most has 1.5Tb on it, we happen to have a large number of movies local to the Tivo so even if everything else goes down, we have redundant copies available. You can't do that on these thin client things.

Of course you might object that huge drives cost a lot of dough. Sure they do.

Today.

But in a few years? The cost of adding a TB drive to a streaming client will be minimal- and yet you will be prohibitted from benefitting from them if you let the movement towards streaming embrace, extend, and smother you.

I just don't get the big deal with streaming. I can watch shows as they are transfered to the Tivo. The two differences I see are that I cannot skip ahead, and secondly that after I am done watching I have a copy on the Tivo whereas with streaming I don't. So aside from the skip ahead, all I have to do to be like streaming is to delete the show after I am done.

Big deal- I'll let the Tivo automatically delete it when it needs space.

Now- if "streaming" means connectivity with internet sites, with multiple codecs supported, as well as Sling support, then I'm all for that. But Streaming as a replacement for transfers?

Thank you very much, but No, thank you very much.

[gweempose]

Assuming that the necessary bandwidth is available, I think real-time streaming is much more logical than transferring the entire program from one location to another. ReplayTVs have been capable of room-to-room streaming for years. Unfortunately, the company never got around to producing an HD capable unit. :(

[TexasGrillChef]

If you use GIGABIT Networking like I do. The AVIONIX system works GREAT. I just wish it had the capability to do DVR functions as well.

I currently have my AVionix SERVER systerm set up with 6 Terabytes with RAID 5, & an additional 6 Terabytes worth of backup storage as well.

(YES you should back up a RAID 5 system, Virus's etc.. can still delete data even from a Raid 5 system)

I have on my server 135 SD movies and 65 Blu-Ray movies, and 68,000 MP3's, 265 Home Movies in HD format (WMV-HD) and about 35,000 Family photographs (40 years worth).

It works like a charm. There haven't been any Hardware issues as of yet. (knock on wood) and there haven't been any "Speed" or networking issues as of yet. The player unit (mediamax 4 with HD-DVD) works great and works great as A DVD/HD-DVD player. I have 3 of these units, & all 3 unites can watch a Movie at the same exact time, While the server is "Ripping" a blu-ray movie. It is a VERY ROBUST system.

I don't see any reason (Other then legal issues surrounding the cable card) why a system like this couldn't easily work in DVR fashion for recording Cable/OTA.

With the power this system has, I dont' see any reason why it couldn't also be capable of recording 4 OTA/CABLE feeds & run 3 players at the same time.

The server claims it is capable of feeding & playing up to 30 players at the same exact time. I never tried this, Just know it works great with 3 & ripping a movie at the same time.

This is a true Server/Client system THAT WORKS!

TexasGrillChef

[moyekj]

I have on my server 135 SD movies and 65 Blu-Ray movies... I know it's OT but how did you rip Blu-Ray movies to hard drive?

[TexasGrillChef]

Moyekj

The server unit is equiped with a blu-ray Drive & LICENSED software to rip the movies to the hard drives.

The Player unit has a HD-DVD drive that if I wanetd would/could rip HD-DVD movies & send them to the server.

When I bought the equipment, there was also a licensing fee I had to pay to be able to rip HD-DVD & Blu-ray movies. In addition to the cost of the Hardware.

It has the option to save a movie (DVD, HD, or blu-ray) as an image file (including extras) or just save the Movie itself. I tried to remove the files from the backup hard drives and play them on my PC. However, Avionix and the licensed "ripping" software uses some form of DMR encryption.

This isn't an inexpensive system. 3 players, 1 Server, Additional storage, and the License for HD/Blu-ray DVD's was well over $15,000. Keep in mind though thats a server with 12 Terabytes worth of storage, a blu-ray drive, HD-DVD Drive & of course 3 Media players. Oh don't forget the cost of the "Ripping" License. Which I think was about $1250 alone.

I also DON"T buy any movies anymore. I have blockbuster.com & rip those movies I wish to keep to my server.

I have plenty of room for growth as well. Since each blu-ray movie takes an average of 25gb. Click though took 50gb. HD-DVD take a minimum of 15g Although T2 on HD-DVD is 30gb. Normal SD DVD's average about 6gb. Although some are as little as 4gb & some as large as 8gb.

I mentioned the system here because it works so well, & I would love for Tivo to do something similar but add the TIVO Interface as well as TIVO DVR functions to the system as well.

I like the system but not to fond of the "User Interface". Tivo is much better.

TexasGrillChef

[Justin Thyme]

Wow, even at well over 15K, you got a great deal. My understanding from the site was that the mediadeck4 players MSRP is $6000 each with HD-DVD. So that is what- $18K there and then you also got the honkin server and ripping license.

Anyway it's not for civilians, but my 3.5 terabyte server stores the equivalent of a 10 terabyte server since I am compressing to MPEG4, and cost about $1800 to put together from an obsolete computer. Ripping is a pain in the neck compared to the Kaleidascape loader that purportedly rips up to 6 dvds per hour.

Slysoft has an HD ripper that removes more of the HD-DVD crap that what it removes from Blu-Ray files. http://www.slysoft.com/en/anydvdhd.html

dvdfab had an HD decrypter that also handles bluray, but my impression was that it is still beta.

Dvdfab is free. Slysoft is a 21 day trial. I never bothered because although I have an HD-DVD player, I don't see any reason to buy any of those fricking expensive disks. I rented a few from Netflix, but I don't get this hyperventilation about HD.

[snathanb]

If you use GIGABIT Networking like I do. The AVIONIX system works GREAT. I just wish it had the capability to do DVR functions as well.



There's no need for GigE networking in that setup. A 100BaseT network can stream Full bit-rate HD without a hiccup, with plenty of bandwidth to spare. If fact, several concurrent streams. While I certainly advocate (and practice) purchasing GigE for all new NICs, switches, and routers, there's no need to replace working gear with GigE for this setup.

Besides... that's kind of pathetic. You obviously have thousands and thousands of dollars to spend on equipment for entertainment, yet brag about how you are stealing (yes, it's stealing to rent movies, them rip them and keep them to watch whenever you want in perpetuity) movies, when you obviously have the means to pay for them.

So, gentlemen, please cease and desist on the discussion about how to steal movies in this thread.

[davezatz]

Verizon already has such a setup but it only works with standard definition programming. They're working on a method to stream HD content throughout the house but it may be a while before we see it.
They're using MoCA over coax and they tell me HD streaming is tentatively slated for early 2008.

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2007-07/hands-on-with-verizon-fios-tv-20/

They're the ones that developed the Moxi Box and have a new product that's supposed to be introduced in the upcoming months. It's a dual-tuner DVR with cablecards and a built-in DVD player. The press release doesn't mention anything about the DVD player but the one shown at the CES had the integrated player. Perhaps they've changed the design and removed the player.
The CD/DVD player is still in the plans and they're shooting for a fall deployment. They also use the coax for multiroom viewing but are using the 1394 specification to move content. The extender box will be bundled with the DVR. FYI It's only one CableCARD slot, the multistream version (M-Card). What they showed at CES was a plastic and metal box with nothing inside. ;)

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2007-07/more-details-on-upcoming-moxi-dvrs/

[Justin Thyme]

So, gentlemen, please cease and desist on the discussion about how to steal movies in this thread.
Pardon me. I don't see the part where he said he rented a movie and copied it. You may have read where I said that I rent HD movies, but that I haven't even tried to copy any HD movies. Why? Because they are too fricking expensive.

To buy. Did you ask yourself why that was relevant to my decision whether to try out DvdFab or Slysoft's HD rippers? They are free or have a long free trial, so it wasn't cost. In case you haven't noticed, I engage in a lot of experiments, so it is not lack of ability or curiousity. The answer was implied but I will spell it out for you. The answer is that I won't copy them without buying them. Here on TCF, folks get thrashed for suggesting that others consider ripping rented movies. No explicit policy here because none is needed. Most folks are honest.

I happen to have a couple hundred DVDs and I am not yet through tranfering all of them to DVD. I have netflix but I vastly prefer buying over renting. I know it is not common to buy a lot of dvds, but although I have a ton of children's videos, most are not. If something is not worth watching more than once then ask yourself if it is worth watching the first time. If it is worth watching multiple times, then you are wasting your money renting. Anyway, I recognize many people simply can't pay the money up front to buy, but if you think that somehow something magical is going to happen to prevent DVDs from being ripped to Hard drives especially as hard drives plummet in price well- that's the same mistake that the music industry made. OK- shut down the ripper companies, and you've only made it worse- then the code magically pops up in the open source community. Now you have a couple thousand HD rippers where there was once only two. It's just numbskull brain damaged dumb to fight a war without knowing about the phenomenon you are fighting.

I am on record as advocating that the movie industr (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5250481&&#post5250481)y agressively promote the consumer pattern of buying dvd quality content via unbox in order to pre-empt this consumer pattern and economic ecosystem around ripping.

It's already begun. Both Kaleidescape and Avionix have high end commercial systems. Kaleidescape has been unsucessfully challenged in court, but no mention was made of the copyright issue which was central. Instead, the folks that control DSS sued narrowly over breach of contract.

If it is the content industry's choice to fight this in the courts, they should re-examine the MP3 debacle and ask themselves if court rulings would have done anything to stop the ripping. When you give consumers no legal way to do what they really want to do, a substantial number of americans will "drive 65 in a 55 zone". It's just plain stupid to engage in magical thinking that they won't. Repression won't work- you cannot control what goes on in the privacy of people's homes, and efforts to slow down P2P distribution have largely failed. The content industry needs a winning strategy, and the legal track isn't it. It has only been financially interesting to the armies of hollywood lawyer-advisors who loudly advocate it.

Hollywood instead needs to aggressively get behind making Unbox servers an extremely attractive in place to retain purchased dvd copies of movies. Heck- I'd do it if they made it a reasonable price (eg- $1 if I send in the original dvd). I can maybe only rip 4 or 5 movies a day. It is slow, but is very much worth it for the better resolution.

[davezatz]

I don't see the part where he said he rented a movie and copied it.

I also DON"T buy any movies anymore. I have blockbuster.com & rip those movies I wish to keep to my server.
Not passing any sort of judgment here, merely pointing out relevant line (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5344761&&#post5344761).

[Justin Thyme]

Thanks. I missed that part.

My point is the same. Distributing physical copies has this inherant danger. Ironically, the content industry views electronic distribution suspiciously, when in fact the unbox scheme of retaining the owned copy on their servers is the way out of the same debacle as MP3.

The lawyers are in the drivers seat and I predict they will make a fortune off a repeat of MP3. Any content industry folks in the audience need to ask themselves why what they are doing with video will result in any different outcome than the utter failure the music industry experienced with these same policies.

There is still time, but it will take an aggressive policy of promoting the unbox like scheme- do it with blockbuster, netflix, with target audiences on PS3, XBox live, Tivo, and Windows MCE video players.

But do it now, because in 3 years it will be too late. The consumer pattern of ripping/ trading will have become entrenched by then, and nuclear force will not dislodge it.

Your move Hollywood. Do you have the balls to save your ass or are you going to play it dumb? There is a sequence from Midway where they leave out Billy Mitchell's demonstration in 1925 and prediction about Pearl Harbor attack by the Japanese, but you get the drift. The conversation is between some fly boys in the bar:

Sh*t. Wait and see!
the Marines were practicing dive-bombing off Haiti.
Everybody said: "Premature, wait and see."
We waited, then the Germans showed us in ' in Madrid.
You mean like at Pearl Harbor? Pearl Harbor, sh*t!
In ' it was proved that Pearl Harbor could be attacked from the air.
And Admiral Ramsey predicted it would happen, in detail.
When was that? pal.
Wait and see. We waited.
December th, we saw.
The wait-and-seers will bust your ass every time.

One of you brilliant young Hollywood mavericks in the audience. I know you guys lurk here because I have talked to some of you. Just take a risk, show that clip and give upper management the spiel about how they are relying on battleships and they are going to get blown out of the water. They may laugh you out of the room, but document your predictions, and remind them in 5 years how you were the one who saw how it would turn out. You don't have to risk a lot of political capital- just make the pitch. Not a lot to lose for a huge payoff. Think about it.

[TexasGrillChef]

Let me point out one fact...

I have an "Unlimited" account with blockbuster.com I am still on a plan that they no longer offer. ---- 8 Movies at a time, unlimited/month with 2 coupons for instore rentals of movies or Games/month as well. $39.95.

Yes, I may "SAVE" a few movies to my server. However, it is only a TIME saving issue. NOT a money issue. AS I could EASILY get that movie back in the mail with in a day or two & yet still wouldn't cost me a single DIME more. I would still pay my $40 a month.

With the way blockbuster.com works. I can easily get about 48 movies a month (8 movies swapped about every 5 days) If I want to "PUSH" the "Time" envelope. However, I average about only about 24 movies a month. So even the ones that I save to my server to watch a little later I have & am paying for!

In addition to that, consider the fact that I also paid over a $1000 in licensing fees as well.
While money isn't a big issue with me, I will gladly pay what I think is fair. I do feel I have paid my "Dues"

In addition to that. 98% of the movies that I do copy to my server unit don't stay on my server more than maybe a month or two. When my family has finished watching the movie, it is deleted & they move on to the next movie. Our server is used more like a "Buffer" zone for the movies we watch.

Justin Thyme..... I got a good deal on the system. Keep in mind prices on the web site are MSRP. My Wife's brother works at a Dallas outlet of the Avionix system so I got even better prices.

I only mentioned the Avionix/Kaleidascape system as something similar to what "ENDBOARDS" was "WISHING" for. I just mentioned that these systems are EXACTLY what he was talking about, minus the TV/DVR/TIVO functions.

Maybe Tivo or someone will combine these units with DVR functions.

TexasGrillChef

P.S.

One more fact. I also DON"T Share &/or Sell any of the movies &/or music I have ripped.

I think the RIAA & MPA Need to worry more about the people that are trying to make money from selling illegal copies of music & movies than worry about home users!

[HDTiVo]

I'm just wondering why streaming seems appealing to folks.

Is it really, or just what they are stuck with and happy to have anything?

I much prefer the Streamloading (Copyright HDTiVo) that TiVo does with MRV where you can start playing "instantly."

However, there are cost advantages to stream only devices because they don't need an HD or much memory. Future solid state memory based devices might be a good compromise on cost/performance.

I think there is room for all approaches in the market.

See: TiVo: The Next Generation (http://hdtivo.wordpress.com/2007/07/15/tivo-the-next-generation/)

[EndBoards]

I only mentioned the Avionix/Kaleidascape system as something similar to what "ENDBOARDS" was "WISHING" for. I just mentioned that these systems are EXACTLY what he was talking about, minus the TV/DVR/TIVO functions.

Yes, this system sounds very close to what i'd like to see.. I don't envision needing nearly as much space as you guys are talking.. and it's gotta be at a cheaper price point than $15k..

But this is the ideal that i think i'll work towards unless Tivo gets home media (MRV, access to personal content on my PC, possibly TTG, etc, etc..) going on the S3 in the next couple of months..

[ZeoTiVo]

Yes, this system sounds very close to what i'd like to see.. I don't envision needing nearly as much space as you guys are talking.. and it's gotta be at a cheaper price point than $15k..

But this is the ideal that i think I'll work towards unless Tivo gets home media (MRV, access to personal content on my PC, possibly TTG, etc, etc..) going on the S3 in the next couple of months..
as regards TiVo MRV and streaming. Is the file any safer on the original TiVo then the next TiVo via MRV? I have yet to see a TiVo hack that got shows via MRV copying. The hacks all work on getting the original recorded file off the fist TiVo that recorded it. MRV does not make one whit of difference to securing a file. I can see MRV getting approved in some form some time next year and TiVo putting out MRV in some form now that does not need cable labs approval as it sidesteps digitally encrypted content

TTG is of course a completely different matter

[EndBoards]

as regards TiVo MRV and streaming. Is the file any safer on the original TiVo then the next TiVo via MRV?
I don't have an answer to that question..

What I do know is this:
Tivo hasn't released any concrete information on what MRV will look like, when it will be here, and what other networking features (like access to home movies, mp3's, photos, playback of my own ripped DVD's, etc..) will be available on the S3. Their efforts seem to be concentrated on releasing a box with even fewer features than the full blown S3.

Right now, as I understand it, you can MRV over your LAN (be it a stream, copy, or whatever else) between a CableCard HTPC running Vista MCE and an Xbox 360 extender. Dedicated extenders (that aren't Xbox 360's) are on their way soon.

Tivo's solution might be great. I'm willing to wait a couple of months to see. But right now, today, an MCE PC seems to be way, way ahead of where Tivo is. And the way I see it, even if Tivo got a blank check from CL to do whatever they wanted, it's likely that their very best product would still have some disadvantages to a server-based solution.