John from Cincinnati 7/15/2007 (S01E06) "His Visit: Day Five"

[dswallow]

OK, I think I'm officially scared now. I must've followed at least 80-90% of what John said this episode, and it all made sense. Makes me wonder if I rewatch everything prior I'll understand it much better.

:up:

[michad]

I was coming here to post a similar comment and to say I have no idea where he's (Milch) going with this, but there's very few shows I look forward to this much. Sabrina picked up on the two Butchies at the apartments during John's monologue. Very cool stuff.

[knownzero]

OK, I think I'm officially scared now. I must've followed at least 80-90% of what John said this episode, and it all made sense. Makes me wonder if I rewatch everything prior I'll understand it much better.

:up:

At 80-90% you're doing significantly better than I am. Love the show, even though I can barely comprehend what's going on.

[clreimers]

OK, I think I'm officially scared now. I must've followed at least 80-90% of what John said this episode, and it all made sense. Makes me wonder if I rewatch everything prior I'll understand it much better.

:up:

Feel free to spoilerize an explanation of the 80-90% that you followed. I could use all the help I can get.

[terpfan1980]

Definitely moved into must see TV. I had serious doubts going into the season, but Milch has erased all of them and almost redeemed the loss of Deadwood. I wish that Deadwood was still going, but John from Cincy has been very, very good.

[dswallow]

At 80-90% you're doing significantly better than I am. Love the show, even though I can barely comprehend what's going on.
I think the moment of understanding for me arrived when John was in the van and said something like "better she shoot me than shoot herself" right after we saw Cissy getting the gun from Kai's trailer, then John collapsed into his chair and appeared in front of Cissy's window. That sequence made it real obvious how John's dialog generally comes about and is meant to be interpreted, and then much of it started making a lot of sense. The hard part is following a lot of it since it quickly moves between different characters and there's not any real clue except the context of the statement as to which character it's about, so it takes a lot of thinking time to figure out and it all goes too fast to dwell much on any one thing.

[drew2k]

John revealed a little bit about Barry, didn't he?

The cookout was just a little bit freaky. I figured out immediately that John was still in the van and was just projecting, but I was clueless most of the time about what he was saying.

I'm glad I haven't deleted any episodes yet - I'm sure this is one series that is worth watching a second time to see what I missed the first time.

No one noticed another Deadwood alum? Paula Malcolmson played the foul-mouthed waitress serving the wheat grass and offered to mix it with rat poison. When's Tim Olyphant going to show up?

[sfenton]

John's revelation about Cissy and Butchie really added to the family dynamic.

[johnperkins21]

I thought this episode was totally f'd up in a great way. I caught on to much of what John was saying during the cookout, but there was a good portion that didn't make any sense. We got a lot of back-story during that monologue.

I can't wait for Sundays to come around so I can see what's next for these guys. The duet with Bill and Freddy was cool, I really like the dynamic between those two characters. This is just an excellent show with really great stuff. John doing the radio commercial bit talking to Cissy was a nice touch.

Oh, and the revelation about Cissy and Butchie was a total "holy (naughty word for poop)" moment for me.

[TAsunder]

Much of what john said at the cookout made little sense to me, aside from the sentences about specific characters. The rest of the episode he made quite a bit of sense. What was that about a wall and a line and a circle?

I wonder if the fiancee is now convinced of the work or if she will run screaming from the bat-crap crazy people.

[InterMurph]

Who is John From Cincinnati's father? He talked about him a lot at the cookout...

[TAsunder]

God

[teknikel]

The kitchen window scene with John and Cissy was one of the best in TV. Wow!

[teknikel]

Oh yeah, who is the dead guy?

[InterMurph]

Oh yeah, who is the dead guy?
According to John, he was the guy who...let's say "abused" Barry in room 24 way back when.

[teknikel]

According to John, he was the guy who...let's say "abused" Barry in room 24 way back when.

Thanks. I guess that was in the 35% I didn't get.

[PJO1966]

The revelation about Cissy and Butchie had my jaw hanging open for a good minute. I really didn't see that one coming.

His monologue at the cookout had me very confused. I asked aloud what the hell had just happened. Gene's take was that he fixed everybody.

I'm still very confused, but really enjoying it.

[johnperkins21]

The revelation about Cissy and Butchie had my jaw hanging open for a good minute. I really didn't see that one coming.

His monologue at the cookout had me very confused. I asked aloud what the hell had just happened. Gene's take was that he fixed everybody.

I'm still very confused, but really enjoying it.

I don't know that he "fixed" everybody, but Butchie and Kai sure seemed happy after it was over. I'd think reliving that memory of his mom showing him "how to do it" would make him break down. Especially after how messed up he was on the phone with Tina.

He definitely had some effect on everyone in attendance though. It did feel somewhat like a group therapy session.

[markp99]

I found the text of John's Soliloquy on another site. I'm afraid I was ZOOOMED on most of this... :( Still liking the show, however :)


If my words are yours, can you hear my father?
Can Bill know my father keeping his eye on me?
Can I bone Kai and Butchie know my father instead?

My father’s shy doing his business.
Kai helps my father dump out.

Bill takes a shot; Shaunie is much improved.

Joe is a doubting Thomas. Joe will save not Aliman. Joe will bring his buddies home.

This is how Freddy relaxes: cup o’ joe and Winchell’s variety dozen.

Mitch catches a good wave. Mitch wipes out. Mitch wipes out Cissy.
Cissy shows Butchie how to do that. Cissy wipes Butchie out.
Butchie hurts Barry’s head.
Mr. Rollins comes in Barry’s face.

My father runs the mega-millions.

Mud is big. Fur is big. The stick is big. The word is big.
Fire is huge. The wheel is huge.
The line and circle are big.
On the wall the line and circle are huge.

On the wall the man at the wall makes a man from the circle and line.
The man at the wall makes a word on the wall from the circle and line.
The word on the wall hears my father.
The zeroes and ones make the word in Cass’s camera.

In the word on the wall that hears my father and Cass’s camera the good one Mitch catches doesn’t wipe Cissy out.
In the word that hears my father, Cissy shows Butchie something else.
In my father’s word, Cissy shows Butchie and Shaun.
In my father’s word, Tina raises Shaun at lunch.

In Cass’s camera. Butchie lays the court out for Barry and Mr. Rollins watches and doesn’t come on Barry’s face.
In Cass’s camera, Butchie knows Kai has kept the faith.
In my father’s word, the wave lifts them up.
(John then draws a stick figure in the dirt with his shoe, using a circle and 3 lines).

In Cass’s camera, Bill doesn’t bump his head on the stairs.
In Cass’s camera, as long as he’s being stupid, Bill gives Lois a kiss.
In his word in Cass’s camera, the internet is big.
9/11 is big, but not every towel head is eradicated.
In his word, we are coming 9/11/14.
In my father’s word, Bill sees how Freddy relaxes.

In Cass’s camera, Ramon wants to know who’s hungry in the courtyard and room 45.
In my father’s word in Cass’s camera to come, Doctor Smith calls Ocean Properties.
In my father’s word in Cass’s camera to come, my father stares not Aliman down and Freddy sees Bill much improved.

You will not note my father’s word, nor remember Cass’s camera.
But you will not forget what we did here.

[PJO1966]

Doesn't make any more sense to me seeing it in print. :confused:

[Bananfish]

I'll take a crack at least of a piece of it. I think we're seeing the spiritual nature of John, and it appears to me to at least resemble the christian "holy trinity" variety.

John was in the van and said "better she shoot me and miss than shoot herself" right after Cissy got the gun from Kai's trailer, then falls into a trance in his seat, immediately appearing in Cissy's window. So it's as if John in the van sent an "apparition" to appear to Cissy to keep her from committing suicide.

I think the John in the van (the one that is a "human parrot") is the "father," while the John that appeared to Cissy, and then later at the block party, is either the "holy ghost" or perhap the "son."

Below I've quoted the speech, with my interpretations in square brackets following the relevant passages.


If my words are yours, can you hear my father?
Can Bill know my father keeping his eye on me?
Can I bone Kai and Butchie know my father instead?
My father’s shy doing his business.

[This passage may refer to the idea that if you are paying too much attention to worldly things, you can't "know" or "hear" god.

Note that the "father John" always simply parrots what others say, while the "apparation John" just seems to say whatever he pleases. Thus "father John" is a human parrot and simply uses "words" that are "yours" - i.e., parroting other's words rather than preaching his own at them. I think the reference to the father's being "shy" is a reference to that. I think the reference to the father's being "shy" is also a reference to that.]


Kai helps my father dump out.

[Notice he doesn't say "me" but "my father" - this is part of what leads me to believe that John is a holy trinity, with "apparation John" saying all these things.]

Bill takes a shot; Shaunie is much improved.
Joe is a doubting Thomas. Joe will save not Aliman. Joe will bring his buddies home.
This is how Freddy relaxes: cup o’ joe and Winchell’s variety dozen.

[Not sure what these lines are about ... perhaps they are about ways that characters are seeking god or at least spiritualness.]


Mitch catches a good wave. Mitch wipes out. Mitch wipes out Cissy.
Cissy shows Butchie how to do that. Cissy wipes Butchie out.
Butchie hurts Barry’s head.
Mr. Rollins comes in Barry’s face.

[Here he recites a chain of events that actually happened, to be contrasted by the things captured in "Cass's camera" which are an alternate way things could have happened. Here is the chain: Mitch becomes a surfing star. Mitch gets injured. Mitch cheats on Cissy, "wiping her out" emotionally. Cissy masturbates Butchie, wiping him out emotionally. Butchie mocks Barry. Barry gets sexually abused by Mr. Rollins.]

My father runs the mega-millions.

[Perhaps a transition statement. Referring to the chain of events, this means that the next event in the chain is Barry winning the lottery. Acknowledging that his "father" controls the universe, he then launches into a history of human development below.]


Mud is big. Fur is big. The stick is big. The word is big.
Fire is huge. The wheel is huge.
The line and circle are big.
On the wall the line and circle are huge.

[This is a list of major milestones in the history of human development, roughly corresponding to:

Mud: shelter (e.g., making mud houses or otherwise)
Fur: clothing (e.g., using animal skin)
Stick: either weaponry or tools in general
Word: language
Fire: self-explanatory (provides light and shelter from the elements, and is useful for many other things as well, such as bending metal)
Wheel: transportation
The line and circle: drawing (?)
On the wall the line and circle: written language

Notice that there's a comment by John as to how important the development was - fire, wheels and written language are all "huge."]


On the wall the man at the wall makes a man from the circle and line.
The man at the wall makes a word on the wall from the circle and line.

[I think this just underscores the development of drawing (making a stick figure man) and then written language (making words).]

The word on the wall hears my father.
The zeroes and ones make the word in Cass’s camera.

[Not exactly sure about this, but all this talk about man's development of technology seems to be culminating in Cass's camera. I think Cass's camera is going to be a major element going forward in the show. I'm especially curious to know what he means by the word on the wall "hearing" his father.]


In the word on the wall that hears my father and Cass’s camera the good one Mitch catches doesn’t wipe Cissy out.
In the word that hears my father, Cissy shows Butchie something else.
In my father’s word, Cissy shows Butchie and Shaun.
In my father’s word, Tina raises Shaun at lunch.
In Cass’s camera. Butchie lays the court out for Barry and Mr. Rollins watches and doesn’t come on Barry’s face.

[This is an alternate way of things transpiring to the chain of events he previously mentioned: Mitch doesn't destroy Cissy emotionally, Cissy doesn't jerk Butchie off, Cissy is good to Butchie and Shaun, Tina is a good mother to Shaun, Butchie is kind to Barry, and Mr. Rollins doesn't abuse Barry. Perhaps in future shows Cass's camera will show us this alternate reality? Or perhaps it will become reality?]

In Cass’s camera, Butchie knows Kai has kept the faith.
In my father’s word, the wave lifts them up.
(John then draws a stick figure in the dirt with his shoe, using a circle and 3 lines).
In Cass’s camera, Bill doesn’t bump his head on the stairs.
In Cass’s camera, as long as he’s being stupid, Bill gives Lois a kiss.

[I don't have a theory on this part, including what the drawing in the dirt is about, other than perhaps there's something about more "alternate" ways for things to happen in Cass's camera, such as Bill's wife not dying.]

In his word in Cass’s camera, the internet is big.
9/11 is big, but not every towel head is eradicated.
In his word, we are coming 9/11/14.

[Is this saying that god will come to the earth on September 11, 2014?!?!?]

In my father’s word, Bill sees how Freddy relaxes.
In Cass’s camera, Ramon wants to know who’s hungry in the courtyard and room 45.
In my father’s word in Cass’s camera to come, Doctor Smith calls Ocean Properties.
In my father’s word in Cass’s camera to come, my father stares not Aliman down and Freddy sees Bill much improved.

[More predictions for things that are going to happen? I.e., in "Cass's camera to come"?]

You will not note my father’s word, nor remember Cass’s camera.
But you will not forget what we did here.

[Not sure exactly what this is getting at.]

[TAsunder]

You will not note my father’s word, nor remember Cass’s camera.
But you will not forget what we did here.

[Not sure exactly what this is getting at.]

I took that to mean they won't understand that john was sent by god to help them but they will nonetheless be better because of that night.

[Bananfish]

I took that to mean they won't understand that john was sent by god to help them but they will nonetheless be better because of that night.

I basically agree that's what it means, but I guess my confusion is how is it they're going to forget some things but also "not forget what we did here."

Will previous events be altered in some way so that they never happened? Will they simply be imbued with a sense of spirituality? And how does that all relate to Cass's camera?

[clreimers]

I like the trinity idea.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

[cheesesteak]

Time for me to bail on this show. Not only is the show confusing but five episodes in and just about everyone is a jerk.

[Dignan]

I'll take a crack at least of a piece of it. I think we're seeing the spiritual nature of John, and it appears to me to at least resemble the christian "holy trinity" variety.

Entire synopsis deleted for space issues.




And there we have the Cliffs Notes version, thank you, seriously. :)

I feel stupid for not following the scene, but then again I watched Big Brother 8 right after this and felt infinity superior to anyone I was watching on the screen. ;)

[Bananfish]

On HBO's site, there is an "Inside the Episode" page with one of the writers providing some background. I'm including his entry on John's speech, mostly because it includes a slightly different transcript that may shed some light. (For example, he groups certain words together with dashes, such as "my-Father-in-Cass's-camera").

Here it is:

-------------

John's extraordinary speech at the end of the episode is bound to trigger much discussion. I'm not in a position to enter that fray, but I can say this: all but a couple of John's statements will make sense to anyone who follows the show, listens closely and think it through. In the interest of abetting that process, here's a transcript:

"If my words are yours, can you hear my Father? Can Bill know my Father, keeping his eye on me? Can I bone Kai and Butchie know my Father instead?

"My Father's shy doing his business. Kai helps my Father dump out. Bill takes a shot. Shaunie is much improved.

"Joe is a Doubting Thomas. Joe will save Not-Aleman. Joe will bring his buddies home. This is how Freddy relaxes. Cup-o'joe, and Winchell's variety dozen.

"Mitch catches a good wave. Mitch wipes out. Mitch wipes out Cissy. Cissy shows Butchie how to do that. Cissy wipes Butchie out. Butchie hurts Barry's head. Mister Rollins comes in Barry's face. My Father runs the Mega-Millions.

"Fur is big. Mud is big. The stick is big. The word is big. Fire is huge. The wheel is huge. The line and circle are big. On the wall, the line and circle are huge. On the wall, the man at the wall makes a man from the circle and line. The man at the wall makes a Word on the wall from the circle and line. The Word on the wall hears my Father.

"The zeroes and ones make the Word in Cass's camera. In the Word on the wall that hears my-Father-in-Cass's-camera, the good one Mitch catches doesn't wipe Cissy out. In the-Word-that-hears-my-Father, Cissy shows Butchie something else. In-my-Father's-Word, Cissy shows Butchie in Shaun. In-my-Father's-Word, Tina raises Shaun at lunch. In Cass's-camera, Butchie lays the court out for Barry, and Mister Rollins watches, and he doesn't come on Barry's face. In Cass's-camera, Butchie knows Kai kept the faith. In-my-Father's-Word, the Wave lifts them up.

"In Cass's camera, Bill doesn't bump his head on the stairs. In Cass's-camera, as long as he's being stupid, Bill gives Lois a kiss.

"In His-Word-in-Cass's-camera, the Internet is big. Nine-Eleven is big, but not every towel-head is eradicated. In His-Word, We are coming Nine-Eleven-Fourteen.

"In my-Father's-Word, Bill sees how Freddy relaxes. In Cass's-camera, Ramon wants to know who's hungry, in the courtyard and Room Forty-Five.

"In my-Father's-Word-to-come-in-Cass's-camera, Doctor Smith calls Ocean Properties. In Cass's-camera-to-come, my Father stares Not Aleman down, and Freddy sees Bill much-improved.

"You will not note my-Father's-Word, nor remember Cass's-camera, but you will not forget what we did here."

And with that, John's spell is broken.

------------

[midas]

No matter how many times I read that transcript, it still looks like that stuff the spammers put in their emails to get past the bayesian filters.

[pdhenry]

This time when John drew the figure on the ground with his foot, I thought I saw a peace symbol, FWIW.

Is it me or do the circle and the line represent the sun setting on the horizon? That's what I was thinking when it was mentioned.

[johnperkins21]

This time when John drew the figure on the ground with his foot, I thought I saw a peace symbol, FWIW.

Is it me or do the circle and the line represent the sun setting on the horizon? That's what I was thinking when it was mentioned.

Looked like a stick figure of a man to me. Circle is the head, line straight down to form the body, then two legs.

[Knives of Ice]

i really really love this show but i fear that it has no chance in hell of getting renewed for a second season. hope i'm wrong....but i doubt it.

[Rolf]

You will not note my father’s word, nor remember Cass’s camera.
But you will not forget what we did here.

The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here.

In the following scene in the van John uses similar words again, I'll have to watch again to get the quote.

The Ice Cream Man has the same birthday as Abraham Lincoln.

I wish I had a clue what the connection is.

[cheesesteak]

One other thing, how many porn stars today use their real name while in the business?

[cwoody222]

Wow, great episode! I agree, my jaw was on the floor during the Sissy/Butchie revelation. And glad we learned more about Barry and room 24.

The ending scene was just fantastic. I didn't follow all of it but I think I get most of it now. I didn't follow the "fire is huge" stuff until now so thanks for that insight!

[mitchb2]

Fantastic episode. As soon as it was over, I realized I'd have to watch it again.
But now I'm going to watch all the episodes. So many details.

This was the first time I notice the "starburst" in the intro.

[danschn]

My thesis is that John is a piece of Butchie, either an embodied piece of his fractured schizophrenic personality, or sent by a higher being to fix Butchie, or something equally crazy.

As the extended family goes, Mitch set the problems in motion by damaging ("wipes out") Cissy, and in turn Cissy wiped out Butchie. And the damaged young (13 years old) Butchie tragically effected almost everyone else his life touched: Shaun of course, Barry (who probably avoids Mr. Rollins if not for Butchie), Kai (who I figure always loved Butchie ("kept the faith" when he was an untouchable surfing god, and when she wouldn't touch him when he was a pathetic drug addict), Tina (who may have been a mother instead of a porn star).

Think of Butchie pounding his own head in conflict trying to say the right thing which seems so obvious to everyone but himself. That's with John around - what have the previous 20 years been like?

It describes a domino effect where some alternative realities (Cass's camera) that John describes - Mitch's "wave" doesn't wipe Cissy out, Cissy shows Butchie something else, and the dominoes wouldn't fall so heavily on innocent others after that - the most innocent being Shaun.

The non-family members are all enablers who are brought in to help fix this core. John in some way appeals to them all - Kai, Cass, Bill, Joe, even Link. Somewhere a little further out of the circle, but having to play a role in pushing this grand solution forward is Freddie and Doctor Smith and Ramon and Dickstein

Why does John's speech reveal it's about Butchie - a whole Butchie? Was John just being clever with wordplay at the beginning - revealing himself as a piece of "God"? "My father's shy doing his business." That stems from Butchie, who shut the door. "Can... Butchie know my father instead?" Kai is cited for two things: "helps my father dump out", and "kept the faith". And it was Kai and Butchie who burned inside when Kai "saw God".

There's a lot of unknowns and confusion in my thesis, but I can't escape the thought that it's all about extra-human forces coalescing to fix the Butchie and the further damage he caused.

[lovethis]

This could be a bit of a leap but Room 24 (on the ground floor so actually Rm 1.24) could be a reference to Romans 1.24 - For this reason God allowed their lusts to control them. As a result, they dishonor their bodies by sexual perversion with each other.

The writing for this almost makes it a puzzle show......I'm torn between there being a 2nd season and the two deadwood movies (could we have both please).

[Timbeau]

What a great episode! The Cissy/Butchie revelation was eye opening, but the phone call from Butchie to PornMom was classic. That poor fool just couldn't help repeatedly shooting himself in the foot. Great stuff!

[Mabes]

This show for me is bordering on psuedo religious/philisophical gibberish pretending to be profound. But I enjoy watching it with one exception, which is unfortunately the title character. We'll see what happens in the next couple of episodes.