New TiVO Coming?

[Revolutionary]

Yeah you're right. When I got a chance to look at the larger image Megazone posted on his site, I could see that the blurry line of text I took for a show title is actually the word "Native", which instead refers to how the signal is output. My bad...

Don't take the engadget post as gospel. You'll note that their source for that post is this thread.

[hybucket]

The Series 3 is down to 599 now on Amazon.

[MickeS]

The Series 3 is down to 599 now on Amazon.
It's been at that price in many places for a while. I bought it for that price at Amazon last month.

[jmpage2]

It surprises me how many people are upset because a cheaper unit is coming out. This reminds me of the Parable of the Talents (I believe). Hey, if you thought the unit was worth what you paid for it, why bregrudge someone else getting a better deal. I bought the S3 last November and I have no regrets. I bought my PS3 2 months ago and now Sony is lowering the price. That's life. I'm happy to see the price go down so more people can enjoy these products (not that there is much to enjoy on the PS3 right now however! :) ).

You bought a PS3???? :p :p :p :p :p :p :p

J/K

*hugs his HD DVD player*

In all seriousness, if the box doesn't have a functioning eSATA port how hard is it to upgrade the disc on one of these? (I've been building PCs for years).

[HDTiVo]

(I've been building PCs for years).
In that case it may take you years to replace the HD. Otherwise, it may be as easy as most people find changing a PC's HD.

[jmpage2]

In that case it may take you years to replace the HD. Otherwise, it may be as easy as most people find changing a PC's HD.

Well if I took "years" to build hundreds of them it might be a different story, eh? :up: :D

[DCIFRTHS]

It surprises me how many people are upset because a cheaper unit is coming out. This reminds me of the Parable of the Talents (I believe). Hey, if you thought the unit was worth what you paid for it, why bregrudge someone else getting a better deal. I bought the S3 last November and I have no regrets. I bought my PS3 2 months ago and now Sony is lowering the price. That's life. I'm happy to see the price go down so more people can enjoy these products (not that there is much to enjoy on the PS3 right now however! :) ).

I own more than one S3, and I am happy to see that TiVo is going to release a lower priced HD DVR with CC support. I hope it sells like hot cakes :)

[snathanb]

I own more than one S3, and I am happy to see that TiVo is going to release a lower priced HD DVR with CC support. I hope it sells like hoy cakes :)

mmmmmm.... hoy cakes!

[DCIFRTHS]

mmmmmm.... hoy cakes!

You like them too? ;) :p

[msrolla]

They're even better with hoy sause.

[Dajad]

You bought a PS3???? :p :p :p :p :p :p :p

J/K

*hugs his HD DVD player*

In all seriousness, if the box doesn't have a functioning eSATA port how hard is it to upgrade the disc on one of these? (I've been building PCs for years).
Yupp, but to be clear, I've had an Xbox 360 since launch and I've been loving it! I've spent more time playing PS2 games on my PS3 than anythign else. I've never owned any play station so I'm getting caught up on classic PS games - God of War, God of War 2, Ratchet & Clank, that sort of thing. I have a huge back library of fun to play on the PS3 until real PS3 content starts rolling out next year. Can't wait for Halo 3 on Sept 26!

[vstone]

I own more than one S3, and I am happy to see that TiVo is going to release a lower priced HD DVR with CC support. I hope it sells like hot cakes :)I am happy that Tivo has a chance to survive and continue providing program listings to already purchased and operating equipment.

While I applaud Tivo for providing some S1 users a method of moving off of that platform, I can't see those who seem to think that Tivo owes them lifetime equipment transfers every time it releases a new product ( might feel different if I had lifetime service (actually I did at D* before I bailed), but I don't think so).

[Stormspace]

I have mixed feelings about this. Personally I would just as soon take it for less $$ with no HD. Anything they ship is going to be useless to me.

On the other hand, from a market standpoint, doing less than 250 GB for the cheap-o-s3-lite makes me uncomfortable. (Edit: I'll dovetail this into my belief that TiVo is about to ship/price the right DVR for last year's market.)

It is absurd that the so-called premium S3 still ships with only a 250GB HD. Perhaps they have so many sitting in the warehouse that they are still selling off.


I'll guess less than 0%.

Which is also going to be my guess for lack of analog recording capability.

It's been a while since I've posted but I wanted to say HERE HERE! This is exactly the box that should have been released last year. And the reason the Premium still has a 250GB drive? They are not selling. If they were the lite version wouldn't even be on the drawing board.

[Kablemodem]

I think the S3 was as or more successful than TiVo expected it to be. It was never intended to be a mass market product.

[gwsat]

I love my S3 and am very glad that I have it. The fact remains, though, that, because of its high cost compared to cable company rental boxes, the S3 is a niche product. Who, other than the most devoted HT and TiVo enthusiasts would be willing to pay $600 (at least) for an S3 plus $10 or $15 a month for a TiVo subscription as opposed to $10 a month for a cable company rental box? Virtually nobody it seems to me.

I don’t know what TiVo’s sales projections were, of course, but if they were at all grand I think they were doomed to disappointment.

[HDTiVo]

I wanted to say HERE HERE! This is exactly the box that should have been released last year.
I am a bit more positive on the initial price than I was in that first post. It is a bit lower than I was thinking for this time last year, so TiVo is advancing the ball part of the way.

[interactiveTV]

I think the S3 was as or more successful than TiVo expected it to be. It was never intended to be a mass market product.
Interesting. Maybe things have changed dramatically in a few months but in March, Tom Rogers, CEO, stated that S3 sales had been "disappointing."

A few months later, he dropped the hint about the S3 lite.

_ITV

[GoHokies!]

You're taking one word badly out of context to try and prove your point. Kablemodem hit the nail on the head, what was "dissapointing" for Rogers was that Tivo didn't see the low-cost HD explosion that took place last year and missed out. Looks to me like they are getting back in the gane for this year with a much better placed offering.

[jmpage2]

I think the S3 was as or more successful than TiVo expected it to be. It was never intended to be a mass market product.

Well, Tivo needs a 'mass market product' to be economically viable for the next 5-10 years. I'm sure that the Comcast deal and deals with other cable providers will help their bottom line but what they really need is a box they can sell that will satisfy consumers and hook them on the Tivo service.

The new box just might do this but I still have serious concerns about SDV incompatibilities as well as the missing TTG and MRV.

The biggest differentiators that Tivo has over a sat/cable PVR are the Tivo "extras" like TTG and MRV. To many consumers everything else from a sat/cable DVR is "close enough" to a Tivo for them not to want to spend the extra $$ to make the leap.

Hopefully if they get the SDV thing figured out somehow and get TTG and MRV they can move a huge number of these Series 3 Lite boxes in Q3/Q4 of this year.

[20TIL6]

Yupp, but to be clear, I've had an Xbox 360 since launch and I've been loving it! I've spent more time playing PS2 games on my PS3 than anythign else. I've never owned any play station so I'm getting caught up on classic PS games - God of War, God of War 2, Ratchet & Clank, that sort of thing. I have a huge back library of fun to play on the PS3 until real PS3 content starts rolling out next year. Can't wait for Halo 3 on Sept 26!
My favorite PS2 games (if you haven't tried them)

Metal Gear Solid: Sons of Liberty

and my all-time favorite

Gran Turismo 4

When they release the next Gran Turismo on PS3, THAT'S when I buy a PS3.

[ZeoTiVo]

I don’t know what TiVo’s sales projections were, of course, but if they were at all grand I think they were doomed to disappointment.
they never expected the current S3 to be mass amrket and made repeated statements to that point. The S3 did exactly what TiVo wnated it to do.

what caught them by surprise was the uptick in regular folk going HD. They assumed HD was still in the Home Theater enthisiast crowd and the market was not so big for a lower end HD unit. Best Buy could give them some hard numbers on this demographic and TiVo seems to have placed a lower end HD DVR on the front burner to catch up on lower end sales they had not identifeid earlier. Of course digital HD is digital HD so the premium S3 was not amde with many features to set it apart. the OLED and THX seem to be the extras so far from the pictures we have seen so far. OOnce people can compare the actual video output and performance that will be the real test

[smark]

They have the GT HD Concept as a free demo. :)

[20TIL6]

They have the GT HD Concept as a free demo. :)

I remember seeing something about that, but was not sure of its availability. Is it anything more than just an HD version of GT4?

I don't mean to hijack this thread any further, but I worry about not having vibration in the controllers anymore. I think I'd miss that.

[sbiller]

New TiVo Series 3 Information (http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tivo-hd-dvr-is-the-newest-series3-tivotogo-coming-back/)

Sorry, posted the wrong link...

[shady]

TiVo HD DVR is the newest Series3 (http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/17/tivo-series-3-lite-pics-and-specs-revealed/)

Which was the new part? (especially as the article was Posted Jul 17th 2007)

Edit: I think you linked to the wrong article

[Mike20878]

Which was the new part? (especially as the article was Posted Jul 17th 2007)

Edit: I think you linked to the wrong article

Here's the correct link (http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tivo-hd-dvr-is-the-newest-series3-tivotogo-coming-back/)

[StuffOfInterest]

The timing on the announcment for the new box is a little too convienent. I and many others took advantage of the $299 lifetime transfer to a Series 2 offer, which just happens to finish today. Now, the day after that offer ends, TiVo plans to announce a cheaper HD capable unit. I'll even lay odds that in a month or two they will make a $199 transfer offer for that unit.

Oh well, as long as TiVo doesn't stop making software improvements on the Series 2 like they did on the Series 1, I should be good for a few years. Oh, wait, the Engadget article speculates that TiVo may be planning to phase out the Series 2. There goes that plan.

[moyekj]

Here's the correct link (http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tivo-hd-dvr-is-the-newest-series3-tivotogo-coming-back/)
Not a very reliable source me thinks, especially:
"Oh, and big time bonus for current users: TiVoToGo is on track to finally be re-enabled on Series3 boxes, but there's a fairly huge caveat: SD shows only, HD shows will have to stay safely stowed on the box. Bummer."
More likely it's any protected digital content (SD or HD with CCI != 0x0) that cannot be transferred with everything else being fair game (SD and HD). Also no mention of MRV which for many is more important than TTG.

[dig_duggler]

Not a very reliable source me thinks, especially:
"Oh, and big time bonus for current users: TiVoToGo is on track to finally be re-enabled on Series3 boxes, but there's a fairly huge caveat: SD shows only, HD shows will have to stay safely stowed on the box. Bummer."
More likely it's any protected digital content (SD or HD with CCI != 0x0) that cannot be transferred with everything else being fair game (SD and HD). Also no mention of MRV which for many is more important than TTG.

Engadget has been pretty good with their predictions (except that whole Apple stock fiasco). We'll know soon enough.

Edit: stolen from another thread. Pre-orders (http://www.elpasotimes.com/entertainment/ci_6443985) begin tomorrow. Seems legit.

[HDTiVo]

Not a very reliable source me thinks,
I don't put much stock in engadget, but ...

The AP story says pre-orders will be taken on tuesday on TiVo's Web site, and units will be in stores by early august.

http://hdtivo.wordpress.com/2007/07...s-happening-11/

[moyekj]

Engadget has been pretty good with their predictions (except that whole Apple stock fiasco). We'll know soon enough. It doesn't make much sense that, for example, one could transfer shows from SD premium channels such as from SD HBO channels that has CCI=0x02 (copy once restriction), but one cannot transfer from ABC HD with CCI=0x0 (copy freely). Much more logical (and without raising Cablelabs eyebrows) is to restrict MRV/TTG to channels marked as copy freely, which encompasses many SD and HD digital channels (in addition to most analog encoded channels without macrovision) and rules out most of the premium channels (SD and HD). As you say, time will tell...

[segaily]

I am betting when they said SD only no HD they meant analog channels only no digital. That gets messed up a lot of the time by people.

[Mike Lang]

I have the full spec .pdf here. I think I can release it after midnight.

[yunlin12]

I have the full spec .pdf here. I think I can release it after midnight.

Midnight indiana time?

[nrc]

I have the full spec .pdf here. I think I can release it after midnight.
It's after midnight EEST (http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/eest.html)!

:D

[HDTiVo]

I have the full spec .pdf here. I think I can release it after midnight.
Looks like I'll be up all night again.

[jmpage2]

I have the full spec .pdf here. I think I can release it after midnight.

It's Midnight Greenwich Mean Time so release it already! :p

[jfh3]

I have the full spec .pdf here. I think I can release it after midnight.

OK, but will you?

I vote for "Yes, of course". :D

[dvr4me]

I have the full spec .pdf here. I think I can release it after midnight.

Ooh, six more hours (CST). Mind dropping a teaser once an hour to build up the suspense? :D

[muya]

it wont let me post a link, but if you go to tivos website and click on buy tivo the new one is up.

[dvr4me]

it wont let me post a link, but if you go to tivos website and click on buy tivo the new one is up.

LOL, I was just posting the image in a new thread. And I though I was the first to notice :D

[hybucket]

LOL, I was just posting the image in a new thread. And I though I was the first to notice :D
It's up there, but it's all screwed up. They must have put it up in a hurry.

[Arcady]

I think they are still loading the parts.

As soon as MRV works on this, I'm buying.

[PaulS]

LOL, I was just posting the image in a new thread. And I though I was the first to notice :D

Confirmed. A 180-hour model (presumably the 160GB drive), with the pricing mangled by a web page scripting glitch.

[dvr4me]

Does this mean the 180hour Series 2 DT has been Ghosted? I noticed that when I ordered my 80 hour S2DT 8 days ago the 180 hour was out of stock... It appears that it is no longer in the lineup...

[MickeS]

Confirmed. A 180-hour model (presumably the 160GB drive), with the pricing mangled by a web page scripting glitch.
Now it's gone. It was there and I looked at it, then I clicked on the back button and refreshed, and it's no longer there. :)

[Arcady]

Yep. And the S2 DT 180 is also still gone.

[dvr4me]

Must have been an oops while then upload the rest of the content... I snapped some screenshots in this thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=359916) .

[jmpage2]

I think they are still loading the parts.

As soon as MRV works on this, I'm buying.

Well, they really need MRV and TTG working on this box as it (and the expandable storage) are the primary advantages of going with this box over the Comcast DVR that will be running Tivo software this winter.

[HDTiVo]

TiVo Targets the Mainstream

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/jul2007/tc20070723_955231.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index_businessw eek+exclusives

[davezatz]

I posted the Series3 Lite opening animation on YouTube:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9SKfT9FFO18

And of course posted some pictures and commentary:
http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2007-07/no-surprise-tivo-series3-lite-arrives/

I couldn't snap the main chip as it was under a glued-on heat sink - sorry. I assume Megazone will have tons more pics and detailed tech info on his site.

I can confirm official eSATA support is coming this fall. And the most interesting piece of info I wrestled out of TiVo is that they began designing this units 14 months ago - before the Series3 was even released.

[MickeS]

https://www3.tivo.com/index.html

Nice.

[yunlin12]

Does the S3 eSATA trick work on the HD?

[MickeS]

dave, you write "I can definitely recommend it over the Series3 to those looking to buy a high def TiVo."

Why? Only because of the lower price, or is it a better product in your opinion? I'm starting to get more and more pissed that I bought the Series 3 just a month ago. :(

[supasta]

Can I suggest an official S3 Lite thread...

[Mike Lang]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/mlang2000/TiVoHD_Spec_Sheet_0607__hi_res_-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/mlang2000/TiVoHD_Spec_Sheet_0607__hi_res_-2.jpg

[supasta]

It sure is pretty. At first I was a little slow to like it, but I really like the look of the thing now. The S3 is, well, ugly IMO compared to previous sleek S2 models...

[HDTiVo]

Two big shocks:

First eSata listed as coming late 2007

No mention of even the possibility of MRV/TTG. That suggests to me it could be totally dead since TiVo up until now has always teased it.

http://www.tivo.com/whatistivo/tivohd/productspecifications/index.html


One no shock...supports analog cable/OTA. :rolleyes:

Told ya so.

[davezatz]

Does the S3 eSATA trick work on the HD?
I didn't test it myself, but was given the impression it does. I'm on the road in California for the week, but when I get home next weekend I can test it if no one else has reported on it.

dave, you write "I can definitely recommend it over the Series3 to those looking to buy a high def TiVo."

Why? Only because of the lower price, or is it a better product in your opinion?
Pretty much price alone. The TiVo HD is functionally equivalent to the Series3 (other than the additional M-Card support, which the S3 may get at some point). I think if you can get the S3 for $400 after rebate as it was a month or so ago, then maybe the OLED display, Glo remote, and extra hard drive space are worth that $100. But anything more than $400 or $450 is hard to justify. In fact, I figure the TiVo HD will ultimately be the end of the Series3 as we know it. (The TiVo HD actually is a Series3 according to the branding on the carton, DVR, and About screen.)

No mention of even the possibility of MRV/TTG. That suggests to me it could be totally dead since TiVo up until now has always teased it.
Not dead. They've confirmed to me it's still under development. Given the lengthy dev time, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that it won't be using our home network this time around and using coax instead.

[Mike Lang]

The TCF Store has one of the first huge shipments on the way. The URL should go live tomorrow.

[doormat]

Well I preordered mine, hopefully I'll have it in two weeks!

[Mike Lang]

The TCF Store has one of the first huge shipments on the way. The URL should go live tomorrow.
Never mind...
http://store.tivocommunity.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=EA&Product_Code=652160&Category_Code=S3TIVO

[HDTiVo]

I found buried in the FAQ:

Are TiVoToGo and Multi-Room Viewing available on TiVo HD?

TiVoToGo and Multi-Room Viewing are not currently available on the TiVo HD DVR. We expect that a version of TiVoToGo and Multi-Room Viewing features will be made available for the TiVo HD DVR in the future

So basically its not in sight. :mad:


Not dead. They've confirmed to me it's still under development. Given the lengthy dev time, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that it won't be using our home network this time around and using coax instead.
Oh brother. :(

[jrm01]

Interesting that when I proceeded to the Buy it Now it quoted the monthly service plans at $6 less than list price. I was logged in and I guess it realized I already had two Tivos and qualified for MSD. Prepaid plans are not reduced.

[doormat]

I can still call and get the MSD on my S2 box after the TiVoHD box shows up, yeah?

[HDTiVo]

Interesting that when I proceeded to the Buy it Now it quoted the monthly service plans at $6 less than list price. I was logged in and I guess it realized I already had two Tivos and qualified for MSD. Prepaid plans are not reduced.
I found this earlier this evening. It looks real. :up:

TiVo Bringing MSD to Bundles? (http://hdtivo.wordpress.com/2007/07/23/tivo-bringing-msd-to-bundles/)

[peteypete]

Definitely prettier than earlier betas made it out to be.

[Redux]

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that it [TiVoToGo and Multi-Room Viewing] won't be using our home network this time around and using coax instead.Seeing a friend die is painful. Seeing him commit suicide is gut wrenching.

Tivo is succeeding to the extent it is by technological word of mouth, geometrically progressed, from a relatively small core of enthusiastic, technically-oriented customers who are turned on partly by the semi-semi-openness of the platform. Ironically only a tiny percentage of Tivo's customers _use_ that capability, even among the core, but _knowing_ that capability is there is what keeps their energy and evangelism high. Obviously Tivo must serve other masters; fine; but their bottom-line decision-making has to preserve that core, or there is nothing left. All Tivo's other, grandiose hopes & dreams are obviously hugely bigger, but they are built upon that foundation.

[stevereis]

The new Tivo HD is the TCD652160 reported on earlier.

Any speculation on what the TCD653080 is that was also reported on earlier?

FWIW, there are ~$200 DVD recorders being released now with NTSC/ATSC/QAM tuners. They down-rez all output to 720x480 so it can be re-encoded to DVD-compliant MPEG2. They must use the DVD-upsampler output to display 720p or 1080i since you never see true HD. However, what you see is the quality you can record on DVD. Since an 80GB HDD is pretty small for HD (10 hours), I wonder if the 653 might be something like this. It could replace the S2DT and even have the external cable box inputs so it could support ATSC/NTSC + cable and still be cheaper by not having to support CableCards.

[HDTiVo]

The new Tivo HD is the TCD652160 reported on earlier.

Any speculation on what the TCD653080 is that was also reported on earlier?

FWIW, there are ~$200 DVD recorders being released now with NTSC/ATSC/QAM tuners. They down-rez all output to 720x480 so it can be re-encoded to DVD-compliant MPEG2. They must use the DVD-upsampler output to display 720p or 1080i since you never see true HD. However, what you see is the quality you can record on DVD. Since an 80GB HDD is pretty small for HD (10 hours), I wonder if the 653 might be something like this. It could replace the S2DT and even have the external cable box inputs so it could support ATSC/NTSC + cable and still be cheaper by not having to support CableCards.
Engadget interview with Denny stated this is it. that's all she wrote this year.

[MickeS]

MRV via coax? How? the Series 3 and the HD don't even have coax outputs.

[stevereis]

The VIXS XCode 2115 chipset in megazone's photos looks interesting...

This link has the specs for the 2111:
http://www.vixs.com/sections/products/xcode_2100/products_xcode_2111.htm

Note that it can to HD to SD transcoding and even MPEG2-HD to MPEG4 HD transcode. So, theoretically, TiVo could enable a down-rez function for MRV (would probably have to do it in the background and disable viewing since this is probably the only decoder in the box). They could also enable an HD 're-compress' function to squeeze HD shows you want to archive for longer term to MPEG4 so they take less HDD space.

I do not see H.264 or VC-1 support in the 2111 but the 2115 may have it. If not, that may limit the formats that the S3 line may eventually support for PC transfers since they would probably limit to the formats both boxes could display.

[HDTiVo]

In fact, I figure the TiVo HD will ultimately be the end of the Series3 as we know it.

From Reuters (http://uk.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUKN2336480120070724):
Jim Denny, vice president of product marketing for TiVo said he was unsure if TiVo was building new Series3 boxes, but believes existing inventory should keep the device available through the start of 2008.
Its a good thing the S3 sold according to expectations :rolleyes: or they might have 'em on hand until 2010.

ROFLMAO!

[supasta]

I would be suprised to see the current S3 model continue to be produced. I see the TiVoHD as a replacement.

[ldc3000]

I would be suprised to see the current S3 model continue to be produced. I see the TiVoHD as a replacement.

From Tivo faq

How is TiVo HD different from the TiVo Series3 HD Digital Media Recorder?

Both products are designed on the Series3 architecture so the core TiVo functionality is the same. However, the TiVo Series3 HD Digital Media Recorder will remain as our premium HD DVR product with features such as a bigger hard drive (250gb), THX Certification, front panel display and a programmable, back-lit remote control.

[btwyx]

Weaknees even have HD upgrades for it alreay: http://www.weaknees.com/tivo-hd-tcd652160.php

160GB is just pitiful for an HD recorder (says the guy with the 750GB S3). That'd be the first thing I'd do if I got one.

[supasta]

From Tivo faq

How is TiVo HD different from the TiVo Series3 HD Digital Media Recorder?

Both products are designed on the Series3 architecture so the core TiVo functionality is the same. However, the TiVo Series3 HD Digital Media Recorder will remain as our premium HD DVR product with features such as a bigger hard drive (250gb), THX Certification, front panel display and a programmable, back-lit remote control and costs a mere $300(double!) more..FYP
Sorry, people are not going to pay $300 more for the exact same thing minus a fancy remote($30) and 90GB of storage($?? but with the soon available upgrade eSATA drives from BB this is more the case)

[bkdtv]

Some of the specifications posted earlier to this thread were off the mark. From zatz blurry shots, it looks like:

TivoHD Specifications (TCD652160)
- BCM7401 DVR CPU w/ integrated MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 decoders
- 2x ATI Theater 314 based tuners
- 2x Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL ADC, each with 16MB RAM (2x NT5DS8M16FS-5T)
- VIXS XCode 2115 IC (CableCard interface + 2x MP@ML encoder)
- 256Mb DDR400 SDRAM (4x NANYA NT5DS32M16BS-5U)
- 160GB Western Digital WD1600AVBS SATA hard drive
- Xilinx Spartan-? FPGA
- Cheaper PCB w/o PCI slots
- eSATA

Updated: July 24

[aindik]

This thing at $299 down plus $6.95 a month, versus the cable DVR at $0 down and 11.95 a month. Break-even is at about 70 months. This thing won't last 6 years, so there must be some value added for the increased price over the cable DVR.

Estimate it lasts for 3 years. Present value of 36 monthly payments of $6.95 (assuming 5% interest) is $231.89. Plus $299 box fee makes the present value to own and use for 36 months to be $530.89. Present value of 36 monthly payments of $11.95 is $398.72. Difference is $132.17, or $3.96 a month. Plus the cost of cablecards. That's the cost of the TiVo service. Worth it?

[davezatz]

- 2x 128Mbit NANYA (32Mb total) DDR400 SDRAM (NT5DS8M16FS-5T) for encoder
- 2x 512Mbit (128Mb total) NANYA DDR400 SDRAM (NT5DS32M16BS-5U) main memory

I'm in CA and my box is in MD, but I think there might have been more than 4 Nanya chips. Maybe 6 or 8 total? When Megazone shows up, he can probably tell us.
Plus the cost of cablecards.
Comcast gives me my cards for free. :cool:

[bkdtv]

Comcast gives me my cards for free. :cool:Did you notice any differences in tuning QAM channels between the Series3 and SeriesHD? Quoting from the ATI Theater site (http://ati.amd.com/products/theater314/index.html):Theater 314/312 offers exceptional performance in the cable environment. Their adaptive blind equalization algorithms allow for fast acquisition times, while interference detection and mitigation algorithms provide robust performance in the presence of burst noise and adjacent channel interference.Did you see anything to suggest that the equalization in the TivoHD might be better than the Series3?

[HDTiVo]

The VIXS XCode 2115 chipset in megazone's photos looks interesting...

This link has the specs for the 2111:
http://www.vixs.com/sections/products/xcode_2100/products_xcode_2111.htm

Note that it can to HD to SD transcoding and even MPEG2-HD to MPEG4 HD transcode. So, theoretically, TiVo could enable a down-rez function for MRV (would probably have to do it in the background and disable viewing since this is probably the only decoder in the box). They could also enable an HD 're-compress' function to squeeze HD shows you want to archive for longer term to MPEG4 so they take less HDD space.

I do not see H.264 or VC-1 support in the 2111 but the 2115 may have it. If not, that may limit the formats that the S3 line may eventually support for PC transfers since they would probably limit to the formats both boxes could display.

Where are those pics?

It wasn't clear to me that the MPEG 4 transcode was HD? What is ASP L5?

What catches my eye is the MSDRM and Real Networks DRM. Could this lead to protected WMV content being available?

Does the S3 have any of this too?

[bkdtv]

Where are those pics?

It wasn't clear to me that the MPEG 4 transcode was HD? What is ASP L5?ASP5 L5 is the MPEG-4 (Part 2) profile that allows for frame rates up to 720x576 @ 30 fps.

Tthe previous poster misunderstood. The XCode 2111 doesn't do MPEG-2 HD to MPEG-4 HD.

What catches my eye is the MSDRM and Real Networks DRM. Could this lead to protected WMV content being available?

Does the S3 have any of this too?The original Series3 used a Broadcom BCM7042. Broadcom doesn't have the datasheet for their part, but a BCM7041 (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7041-PB05-R.pdf) is basically two BCM7042 encoders on a single chip. It has no means to encode or transcode to MPEG-4.

[riddick21]

FYP
Sorry, people are not going to pay $300 more for the exact same thing minus a fancy remote($30) and 90GB of storage($?? but with the soon available upgrade eSATA drives from BB this is more the case)

I think TiVo can get away with charging a premium for the S3. They should probably bump up the hard drive space but I think there is a market for people who want the best of the best in their HT setup and this usually includes THX certification. Just because you don't find a use for it doesn't mean no one will.

[HDTiVo]

ASP5 L5 is the MPEG-4 (Part 2) profile that allows for frame rates up to 720x576 @ 30 fps.

Tthe previous poster misunderstood. The XCode 2111 doesn't do MPEG-2 HD to MPEG-4 HD.

The original Series3 used a Broadcom BCM7042. Broadcom doesn't have the datasheet for their part, but a BCM7041 (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7041-PB05-R.pdf) is basically two BCM7042 encoders on a single chip. It has no means to encode or transcode to MPEG-4.
I thought so about the S3. Someone said tonight it has a transcoder too. So they were wrong.

One thing about the specs:

TurboMPEGTM Transcoding

Format conversion of multiple streams:

· MPEG2 HD to MPEG2 SD

· MPEG2 HD to MPEG4 (ASP, SP)

Bit-rate reduction of multiple streams:

· 30 Mbps è 128 Kbps

Resolution reduction of streams:

· HDTV --> SDTV --> CIF --> QCIF

· HDTV --> HDTV

High-speed video processing up to 8X real-time

The next to last line HDTV --> HDTV. What does that mean then?

[bkdtv]

I thought so about the S3. Someone said tonight it has a transcoder too. So they were wrong.The full specifications for the BCM7041 aren't published. It may do HD MPEG-2 -> SD MPEG-2 transcoding. Broadcom's part with MPEG-4 encoding and transcoding is the BCM7043, and it's not done yet.

The next to last line HDTV --> HDTV. What does that mean then?I don't know. Passthrough, maybe? But for HD encoding, it would need to say MP@HL. For HD transcoding, it would need to say High Profile (HP), not Advanced Simple Profile (ASP).

More curious is the specifications state "Single D1 MPEG 2/4 (ASP, SP) encode capable." A single XCode 2111 cannot encode two analog streams at once. Edit: The TivoHD uses the 2115, not the 2111, so it's likely that the 2115 adds a second encoder.

[HDTiVo]

Now that I know where to look... the chip I see in the picture says 2115.

And there is no 2115 in their product list or found upon a search.

[DCIFRTHS]

Some of the specifications posted earlier to this thread were off the mark. From zatz blurry shots, it looks like:

TivoHD Specifications (TCD652160)
- BCM7401 DVR CPU w/ integrated MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 decoders
- 2x ATI Theater 314 based tuners
- VIXS XCode 2115 encoder / transcoder
- 2x 128Mbit (32Mb total) NANYA DDR400 SDRAM (NT5DS8M16FS-5T) for encoder
- 2x 512Mbit (128Mb total) NANYA DDR400 SDRAM (NT5DS32M16BS-5U) main memory
- 160Gb SATA HD
- Xilinx Spartan-? FPGA
- Cheaper PCB w/o PCI slots

It will be interesting to see if the ATI tuners can eliminate the digital tuning issues reported by some customers.

From the information that you currently have, would you say that one platform is better than the other? If so, why?

[HDTiVo]

The diagram on this page http://www.vixs.com/sections/markets/applications/applications_pvr_stb.htm
seems to show two analog inputs

This sheet on the 2121 shows two hybrid tuners...
http://www.vixs.com/sections/products/product_sheets/sheets/XC-2121-07-V1.0.pdf

This sheet on the 2111 shows one hybrid tuner
http://www.vixs.com/sections/products/product_sheets/sheets/XC-2111-07-V1.0.pdf

[HDTiVo]

The 7041 appears to have two analog encoders...
http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7041-PB05-R.pdf

The 7401 has one or two encoders?
http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7401-PB04-R.pdf

could the TiVo HD be using the 2115 and the 7401 for two analog encodes?

[bareyb]

I think TiVo can get away with charging a premium for the S3. They should probably bump up the hard drive space but I think there is a market for people who want the best of the best in their HT setup and this usually includes THX certification. Just because you don't find a use for it doesn't mean no one will.
If both were available when I bought my S3 I still would have bought the S3. I definitely think there's a market for them still.

[megazone]

My review. (http://www.tivolovers.com/a-review-of-the-tivo-hd-digital-media-recorder/)

TiVo HD Photos (http://www.tivolovers.com/photos/tivo-hd-review-photos/)

There are some errors in the thread - the ViXS chip isn't the encoder, there are two Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL encoders. One chained off each ATI Theater 314. I'm curious what the ViXS XCode-2115 is doing myself.

There are 6 RAM chips - 2x8MB, one for each encoder chain, and 4x32MB for the main memory.

There are other, more interesting things in there - like the A/V *input* traces, and the 3rd SATA header. ;-)

As for TiVoToGo/MRV. I was told is is coming later this year and it will use the network, just like the S2. Not the coax.

[bicker]

Evangelism doesn't pay the bills. The "core" is whatever is necessary to sustain a profitable market offering, even if that varies from what original evangelists want it to be.

[sbiller]

I thought so about the S3. Someone said tonight it has a transcoder too. So they were wrong.

One thing about the specs:



The next to last line HDTV --> HDTV. What does that mean then?

Could be transrating.

[Adam1115]

It's clear (to me) that they designed both units and intended to start with the first Series 3 and replace it when supplies ran out. It seems like they did not expect to sell as many Series 3's as they did, and are now coming out with this less than a year after the release.

[DCIFRTHS]

It's clear (to me) that they designed both units and intended to start with the first Series 3 and replace it when supplies ran out. It seems like they did not expect to sell as many Series 3's as they did, and are now coming out with this less than a year after the release.

Is it correct to say that your opinion is that TiVo is going to discontinue the S3 once current supplies run out?

[bkdtv]

My review. (http://www.tivolovers.com/a-review-of-the-tivo-hd-digital-media-recorder/)

TiVo HD Photos (http://www.tivolovers.com/photos/tivo-hd-review-photos/)

There are 6 RAM chips - 2x8MB, one for each encoder chain, and 4x32MB for the main memory.

There are other, more interesting things in there - like the A/V *input* traces, and the 3rd SATA header. ;-)

As for TiVoToGo/MRV. I was told is is coming later this year and it will use the network, just like the S2. Not the coax.From your review:

Each encoder has an associated Nanya NT5DS8M16FS-5T chip, which is a dedicated 8MB RAM bank. The main system memory consists of four Nanya NT5DS32M16BS-5U chips, for a total of 128MB RAM - the same as the Series3.According to page two of NANYA's product guide (http://www.nanya.com/NanyaAdmin/GetFiles.ashx?ID=351), the NT5DS32M16BS-5U is 512Mbit part, aka 64MB. Four of them translates to 256MB.

If 128Mb of that is devoted to system memory, then the other half must be devoted to the ViXS XCode?

I'm curious what the ViXS XCode-2115 is doing myself.This January press release (http://www.vixs.com/sections/news/press_releases/pr_jan_9_2007.htm) probably gives a hint:CableCard Conditional Access SDK - ViXS will show its CableCardTM development kit for DTV embedded systems and will feature the industry’s first development kit for M-CARD system development. The SDK is developed around the ViXS XCodeTM 2121 single chip video engine with glueless CableCardTM and SmartCardTM interfaces embedded. The SDK reference design will support development of the TranscryptionTM of scrambled data to a number of DRM systems and transcoding of video into various MPEG formats.It looks like Tivo is using a variation of the 2121 to provide the CableCard / MCARD interfaces and encoding / transcoding. As a bonus, it may also support SD->HD and HD->SD transcoding for MRV with Tivo Series2 units.

[vman41]

Where are going with dropping any 'series' designation in the model name? Do they not expect an eventually replacement for the TiVo HD? The 'Series 2' moniker seemed to cover a fairly broad range of models, but they don't want the new unit considered as a series 3.

[davezatz]

As for TiVoToGo/MRV. I was told is is coming later this year and it will use the network, just like the S2. Not the coax.
Hm, I wonder if they'll be moving HD files. And if so, how long is it going to take?
It seems like they did not expect to sell as many Series 3's as they did
What makes you think that?

[HDTiVo]

I'm curious what the ViXS XCode-2115 is doing myself.Good, I feel less stupid. You've been very helpful. Now let's send Dave to Picture Taking of Review Unit Guts school. :)

There are other, more interesting things in there - like the A/V *input* traces, and the 3rd SATA header. ;-)

As for TiVoToGo/MRV. I was told is is coming later this year and it will use the network, just like the S2. Not the coax.
Good stuff. I went to bed thinking the TiVo HD may have some very interesting hardware capabilities the S3 does not. I look forward to learing more.

One thing I wonder is in what way the TiVo HD is the same platform as the S3? With these different chips it seems somewhat different, perhaps even its own platform as in a seperate direction to functionality.

Hm, I wonder if they'll be moving HD files. And if so, how long is it going to take?
Denny says they are working on not being resolution restricted. Sounds like another death match leading to a long wait to me.

[stevereis]

There are some errors in the thread - the ViXS chip isn't the encoder, there are two Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL encoders. One chained off each ATI Theater 314. I'm curious what the ViXS XCode-2115 is doing myself.
The Philip 7138's are not MPEG encoders, just analog to digital converters (encoders) for both the video and audio:http://www.nxp.com/acrobat_download/literature/9397/75015903.pdf
Interesting thing to note is that they can accept 480p progressive component inputs (not that the new box has them).

[GoHokies!]

It's clear (to me) that they designed both units and intended to start with the first Series 3 and replace it when supplies ran out. It seems like they did not expect to sell as many Series 3's as they did, and are now coming out with this less than a year after the release.Do you have any actual evidence to back up that wild claim? If the unit was designed so long ago, why were there a 6 month gap in between when Tivo announced they were "working on it" to release?

If you're going to make outragous statements like this, you may want to supply some form of evidence.

[aindik]

Do you have any actual evidence to back up that wild claim? If the unit was designed so long ago, why were there a 6 month gap in between when Tivo announced they were "working on it" to release?

If you're going to make outragous statements like this, you may want to supply some form of evidence.

Seems like a form of what economists call "price discrimination," getting people who are willing to pay more to pay more. They release one thing and price it at $800, capturing the full $800 from everyone willing to spend $800 or more on an HD DVR. When the supply of those people is exhausted, then introduce the $300 model to capture everyone else.

Why not just price the thing at $800 until it stops selling and then reduce the price to $300? PR is better when you introduce a cheaper unit, rather than cutting a price of a unit whose price you could have started that low.

No evidence, just a theory.

[HDTiVo]

Mega:

I am reading your review and wanted to point this out about the 3rd Sata connection; it is something I wrote about last year and it hit me last night when I saw the transcoder. The possibility of transcoding to DVD format of HD content (and SD) to be burned via a DVD burner.

Some other thoughts:

I don't get the front CC card slots with the expense of a door. You put the cards in once (hopefully) and never access them. Seems like a big waste - unless TiVo is resigned to CCs being highly troublesome.

Are the same Hybrid modes still there? Are there new output modes?

With all the chip changes, etc., how is this really the S3 platform?

[Arcady]

There are other, more interesting things in there - like the A/V *input* traces, and the 3rd SATA header. ;-)

The AV input and what looks like IR/Serial ports (ala Series2) is very interesting indeed. If the 3rd SATA port is for a DVD burner, then perhaps the AV input could be used to import content not only as regular TiVo content, but also to burn to disc. With the IR/Serial, one could control a regular STB, but I don't see why you would want to.

[bkdtv]

With all the chip changes, etc., how is this really the S3 platform?The Broadcom BCM7401 CPU integrates the BCM7038 and BCM7411 found in the S3 platform. That higher-level software code should be backward compatible.

But you are right, the new TivoHD will need separate drivers for its new tuners, encodes, and CableCard interface. The ViXS XCode CableCard interface is quite different from that in the Series3, so MCARD support for the TivoHD can't be directly ported to the Series3.

[HDTiVo]

More:

Does the lack of Broadcom chips represent a major departure from TiVo being a Broadcom shop? How much software work went into making this move?

I am thinking TiVo got a customized version of the ViXS 2100 line for itself.

With all that's in this unit, I find it hard to see enough savings to justify the lower retail price without some HW subsidy. I think their strategy is a bit changed on that.

You mention the platform taking over the S2, but with the cost of the design, I wonder if that's possible, or how it could be made to be so.

[atmuscarella]

With the IR/Serial, one could control a regular STB, but I don't see why you would want to.This might actually be interesting to satellite users OTA digital/HD + satellite SD on one box. It would make staying with Tivo when I go HD easier. I most likely would also have a dish HD DVR but having a HD OTA Tivo that could also control another dish STB would be useful.

Thanks,

[jmpage2]

This thing at $299 down plus $6.95 a month, versus the cable DVR at $0 down and 11.95 a month. Break-even is at about 70 months. This thing won't last 6 years, so there must be some value added for the increased price over the cable DVR.

Estimate it lasts for 3 years. Present value of 36 monthly payments of $6.95 (assuming 5% interest) is $231.89. Plus $299 box fee makes the present value to own and use for 36 months to be $530.89. Present value of 36 monthly payments of $11.95 is $398.72. Difference is $132.17, or $3.96 a month. Plus the cost of cablecards. That's the cost of the TiVo service. Worth it?

Where do you get a service plan for $6.95?

[aindik]

Where do you get a service plan for $6.95?

Multi-Service Discount with a three year agreement. (I have a Series 2 TiVo with lifetime service).

[HDTiVo]

The AV input and what looks like IR/Serial ports (ala Series2) is very interesting indeed. If the 3rd SATA port is for a DVD burner, then perhaps the AV input could be used to import content not only as regular TiVo content, but also to burn to disc. With the IR/Serial, one could control a regular STB, but I don't see why you would want to.
VOD/SDV? :eek:

There is definitely a lot more here than meets the eye. Lots to figure out. Very stimulating.

[bkdtv]

Does the lack of Broadcom chips represent a major departure from TiVo being a Broadcom shop? How much software work went into making this move?They are still using the same basic Broadcom MIPS CPU. Based on Broadcom's performance claims, the MIPS CPU in the TivoHD is about 7% faster than the one in the Series3, but aside from that they're virtually identical.

They'll "just" be using drivers for the new encoders and ATI tuners rather than drivers for the Broadcom encoders and Samsung tuners.

[jmpage2]

Multi-Service Discount with a three year agreement. (I have a Series 2 TiVo with lifetime service).

Ah, ok, that makes more sense, I wouldn't qualify for a multi unit discount.

[davezatz]

Now let's send Dave to Picture Taking of Review Unit Guts school.
I knew Mega would have it covered. :)
If the unit was designed so long ago, why were there a 6 month gap in between when Tivo announced they were "working on it" to release?
TiVo told me they began designing this new model 14 months ago. I assume they didn't announce it because they didn't want to kill S3 sales. As it is, S3 sales have probably stalled in the last month with all the TiVo HD leaks. I don't know why anyone would buy an S3 going forward. Well, until TiVo starts offering some blow-out prices (speculation) to clear their inventory maybe before the holidays.

[aindik]

Ah, ok, that makes more sense, I wouldn't qualify for a multi unit discount.

That's my fault for assuming that most people here already have a TiVo. :)

[audio]

This may be an odd question.

This box does record analog and digital cable as well as analog and didgital OTA.

Given this, could the box function without CableCards, ie, with just basic cable and OTA?

Most of the HD programming I watch is OTA anyway. Given the problems with SDV, as long as it can function the same as my Series2, with the added bonus of OTA HD, this will be well worth the cost of upgrading.

[Arcady]

My Series3 box worked great for weeks without cablecards, only recording basic cable and OTA. I don't see why the new box would behave any differently.

[chandler1818]

So, when S3 dies (which is a pretty safe assumption based on what denny apparently said), my S3 will continue to receive all of the necessary upgrades because it is based on the same architecture as the new tivo hd? I would hate to eventually be shut out of any new features. . .

[20TIL6]

So, when S3 dies (which is a pretty safe assumption based on what denny apparently said), my S3 will continue to receive all of the necessary upgrades because it is based on the same architecture as the new tivo hd? I would hate to eventually be shut out of any new features. . .

Certainly that is my view as well. Just because the S3 will probably no longer be sold after current inventory is depleted, it does not mean it is anywhere near end of life. Not by a longshot in my opinion.

I have two S3's, and yeah, I spent some coin. But for TiVo as a company, I'm thrilled about the new, less expensive unit. I'll be adding one of the new ones to my home.

[chandler1818]

20TIl6, I hope that is not just wishful thinking on our part.

[blips]

Multi-Service Discount with a three year agreement. (I have a Series 2 TiVo with lifetime service).

My dad has a Series 1 with lifetime. Would he qualify for the Multi-Service Discount?

[SugarBowl]

My dad has a Series 1 with lifetime. Would he qualify for the Multi-Service Discount?

as long as the lifetime tivo has called in to Tivo once in the last 180 days.

[blips]

as long as the lifetime tivo has called in to Tivo once in the last 180 days.

Great! He is sold his house and is moving to a new one in August. He took it down in May. Hopefully it made successful calls up to that point.

[Adam1115]

Do you have any actual evidence to back up that wild claim? If the unit was designed so long ago, why were there a 6 month gap in between when Tivo announced they were "working on it" to release?

If you're going to make outragous statements like this, you may want to supply some form of evidence.

My wild outrageous (outragous??) "claim / statement" was simply an opinion. But, I based it on my knowledge of how long it takes to redesign electronics, circuit board, put them through testing, have them certified (fcc, etc.) That takes more than a few months in any industry I've worked in, so why is it so wild and crazy to think that it's been in the works all along? The series 3 has only been out for 10 months, you think they just thought of this 6 months ago?

There have several comments from people that have said they heard first hand from TiVo that this was in development before the Series 3 shipped.

[atmuscarella]

Originally Posted by Adam1115
There have several comments from people that have said they heard first hand from TiVo that this was in development before the Series 3 shipped.This doesn't seem unreasonable to me, in fact I would guess that their next release is in development know. The issue I think some had was your previous post made it sound like you believed this unit was ready last fall and TiVo held it back waiting for the current Series 3 to sell out. I find that highly unlikely.

Thanks,

[20TIL6]

20TIl6, I hope that is not just wishful thinking on our part.

I'm not worried at all.

[davezatz]

Given this, could the box function without CableCards, ie, with just basic cable and OTA?

Yep, that's exactly how I tested it.

[ZeoTiVo]

I knew Mega would have it covered. :)

TiVo told me they began designing this new model 14 months ago. I assume they didn't announce it because they didn't want to kill S3 sales. As it is, S3 sales have probably stalled in the last month with all the TiVo HD leaks. I don't know why anyone would buy an S3 going forward. Well, until TiVo starts offering some blow-out prices (speculation) to clear their inventory maybe before the holidays.
nice write up dave adn Megazone.

I still think what everyone is missing here is TiVo's desire to make the two product lines on the same manufacturing line. analog market still has a lot of legs in it given the lack of any real competition in the analog market. However TiVo is not interested in keeping manufacting capability around the S2 line long term. So they design this motherboard and case so they can make either the Tivo HD or the S2 DT model from same basic parts. That is step 1 and means the DT changes in looks a little bit and we see the 540 version of the DT come to light. I think the leaked TCD653080 is about a model like that.

next may be the integration of parts from the two lines into one universal box? This one I am not so sure about. Why would I want to pay for IR blasters I would not use? why add to the cost of either box? The only change I can see Sat having in TiVo's strategy is if they do some deal with E* to settle the suit. Even at that I can not see E* opening up its box but instead working out dev deal on its existing hardware or some other integrated E* only box.

anyway glad to see TiVo thinking ahead with this box to future times. Nice work :up:

[ZeoTiVo]

Denny says they are working on not being resolution restricted. Sounds like another death match leading to a long wait to me.

no, that simply means that MRV/TTG will work ofr anything tha tis not recorded via an encrypted digital stream. so an open cable channel of HD or HD off the OTA is fair game and does not need any nod from cable labs. Denny went so far as to say anything without a broadcast flag which is interesting as well.

we know tivo told megazone directly that they are working on bringing MRV/TTG before the end of the year to the S3 and soon after to Tivo HD (most likely since they have to work to merge the Tivo HD code branch back in and get to one Os for the S3 and Tivo HD.

so any concerns about MRV/TTG is based on thinking about the old TiVo of years ago. Like you yourself said HDTiVo - this new box and its fast delivery time should have everyone saying hello to the new tiVo inc. :up:

[Mike20878]

How does the cableCARD work? Would there be some kind of cable/cord hanging down the front of the box? Or does a cableCARD just give you permissions to view content that still comes over coax?

[aindik]

How does the cableCARD work? Would there be some kind of cable/cord hanging down the front of the box? Or does a cableCARD just give you permissions to view content that still comes over coax?

The latter. The Cablecard decrypts what comes over the coax.

[GoHokies!]

My wild outrageous (outragous??) "claim / statement" was simply an opinion. But, I based it on my knowledge of how long it takes to redesign electronics, circuit board, put them through testing, have them certified (fcc, etc.) That takes more than a few months in any industry I've worked in, so why is it so wild and crazy to think that it's been in the works all along? The series 3 has only been out for 10 months, you think they just thought of this 6 months ago?

There have several comments from people that have said they heard first hand from TiVo that this was in development before the Series 3 shipped.Not at all. I'm not questioning the fact that Tivo didn't start working on this in January (thanks Dave for the 14 months, that puts us about 3-4 months before S3 shipped).

Saying that this was designed at the same time as the S3 is a whole different thing - not to mention completely wrong if Dave's information is correct, plus I'll bet some of the components used weren't available 2 years ago (which is when the S3 would have been designed). Presenting this as an "opinion" doesn't make it any less incorrect.

BTW, thanks for correcting my spelling mistake, I'm sure you've never made a spelling error ever. :rolleyes:

[Adam1115]

Not at all. I'm not questioning the fact that Tivo didn't start working on this in January (thanks Dave for the 14 months, that puts us about 3-4 months before S3 shipped).

Saying that this was designed at the same time as the S3 is a whole different thing - not to mention completely wrong if Dave's information is correct, plus I'll bet some of the components used weren't available 2 years ago (which is when the S3 would have been designed). Presenting this as an "opinion" doesn't make it any less incorrect.

Forgive me, I meant to say "Planned" at the same time not designed. I agree, they designed the original Series 3 first.

[GoHokies!]

Forgive me, I meant to say "Planned" at the same time not designed. I agree, they designed the original Series 3 first.OK, gotcha - that makes a lot more sense. :D

[megazone]

Where are going with dropping any 'series' designation in the model name? Do they not expect an eventually replacement for the TiVo HD? The 'Series 2' moniker seemed to cover a fairly broad range of models, but they don't want the new unit considered as a series 3.Branding. The unit is still a Series3 - even has the logo on the lower front panel. But 'TiVo HD' is definitely a catchier brand for marketing. It tells you right in the name what it is - TiVo in HD. 'Series3' doesn't do that - only people who already know TiVo nomenclature know S3 means HD.

[megazone]

The Philip 7138's are not MPEG encoders, just analog to digital converters (encoders) for both the video and audio:http://www.nxp.com/acrobat_download/literature/9397/75015903.pdf
Interesting thing to note is that they can accept 480p progressive component inputs (not that the new box has them).
Aha - things are getting clearer now. I went nuts trying to find specs on that chip and I never could, just a general note on utilization for the family of chips.

So it does look like the ViXS is doing the analog encoding.

[megazone]

You mention the platform taking over the S2, but with the cost of the design, I wonder if that's possible, or how it could be made to be so.Time and economies of scale.

Component prices *always* drop with time. So they may not replace the S2DT this year, maybe early next year. But at some point the cost of the components will decline enough to make it worth while to garner the cost savings of eliminating the older design.

On top of that you get economies of scale. Building 100 each of two designs generally costs more than building 200 of one design. You can buy larger quantities of components and get better discounts. You get more efficiencies from the production lines.

[aaronwt]

So any word on Lifetime transfers?

[megazone]

So any word on Lifetime transfers?TiVo says they have no plans for lifetime transfers to the TiVo HD at this time.

[aaronwt]

TiVo says they have no plans for lifetime transfers to the TiVo HD at this time.

I guess I'll need to get one sometime later this year. Hopefully by then I'll be able to do a lifetime transfer.

[m_jonis]

This thing at $299 down plus $6.95 a month, versus the cable DVR at $0 down and 11.95 a month. Break-even is at about 70 months. This thing won't last 6 years, so there must be some value added for the increased price over the cable DVR.

Estimate it lasts for 3 years. Present value of 36 monthly payments of $6.95 (assuming 5% interest) is $231.89. Plus $299 box fee makes the present value to own and use for 36 months to be $530.89. Present value of 36 monthly payments of $11.95 is $398.72. Difference is $132.17, or $3.96 a month. Plus the cost of cablecards. That's the cost of the TiVo service. Worth it?

In my case the DVR is only $4.95/month (if I sub to HBO or SHO which I HAVE to do in order to get HBO-HD and/or SHO-HD), and no monthly rental box fee.

vs.:

$6.95/month Tivo,
plus $1.95 x 2 for Cable cards/month
plus $300 for box

I think I'll just wait and see what SDV and TTG/MRV holds and continue to use my MythTV box with QAM.

[ChuckyBox]

Well, until TiVo starts offering some blow-out prices (speculation) to clear their inventory maybe before the holidays.
I'd be surprised if there were a lot of S3 inventory lying around. If they've known this box was coming for 14 months, there won't be many S3s in the production pipeline for Q3 and Q4, and they've already had a big sale (i.e., the rebate offer). And they've been dumping the refurbs on the web site with a nice offer, which probably indicates they are pretty low on inventory.

[HDTiVo]

Branding. The unit is still a Series3 - even has the logo on the lower front panel. But 'TiVo HD' is definitely a catchier brand for marketing. It tells you right in the name what it is - TiVo in HD. 'Series3' doesn't do that - only people who already know TiVo nomenclature know S3 means HD.
But HDTiVo is soooo much smoother.

Time and economies of scale.

Component prices *always* drop with time. So they may not replace the S2DT this year, maybe early next year. But at some point the cost of the components will decline enough to make it worth while to garner the cost savings of eliminating the older design.

On top of that you get economies of scale. Building 100 each of two designs generally costs more than building 200 of one design. You can buy larger quantities of components and get better discounts. You get more efficiencies from the production lines.
The thing about time is that it also erodes your price point, so sometimes you are gaining and sometimes you may be not gaining much.

I agree about economies of scale; the thing I need to get past is that this TiVo HD is chock full of stuff, so how do you get econ of scale to overcome all that silicon goodness and/or how do you change the parts w/o ruining econ of scale. Then how do you make that cheaper overall than a specific bare bones cost reduced S2 only re-design.

[megazone]

I agree about economies of scale; the thing I need to get past is that this TiVo HD is chock full of stuff, so how do you get econ of scale to overcome all that silicon goodness and/or how do you change the parts w/o ruining econ of scale. Then how do you make that cheaper overall than a specific bare bones cost reduced S2 only re-design.Compare it to the S2DT - is it really that much more? The S2DT has two Broadcom encoders, the same models use in the S3. TiVo told me they didn't use those because the system in the HD costs less - both the chips and the space savings on the board. There really isn't a lot of extra stuff in the TiVo HD - add the analog inputs and it would basically be a 180-hr S2DT with CableCARD support.

And with an increasing number of cable systems going digital, that may become a key factor too.

Once the TiVo OCAP software rolls out - that could eat their low-end a bit.

[HDTiVo]

Compare it to the S2DT - is it really that much more? The S2DT has two Broadcom encoders, the same models use in the S3. TiVo told me they didn't use those because the system in the HD costs less - both the chips and the space savings on the board. There really isn't a lot of extra stuff in the TiVo HD - add the analog inputs and it would basically be a 180-hr S2DT with CableCARD support.

And with an increasing number of cable systems going digital, that may become a key factor too.

Once the TiVo OCAP software rolls out - that could eat their low-end a bit.
Would you still use the 7401? How much RAM? What tuners? The transcoder chip? etc...

What features would this have? HDMI out? Record SD (incl. digital cable) only? HD size?

[megazone]

Would you still use the 7401? How much RAM? What tuners? The transcoder chip? etc...

What features would this have? HDMI out? Record SD (incl. digital cable) only? HD size? Same as the TiVo HD PLUS analog input. Just as each generation of box that has replaced the previous generation has tended to be better, faster, and do more. I could see TiVo moving to all-HD boxes, retiring the S2DT completely.

It may sound like a big jump - but keep in mind the S1 had models that sold for a grand - and didn't compare at all to the $300 TiVo HD. The S2DT is only less expensive than the HD due to the rebate.

[HDTiVo]

It may sound like a big jump - but keep in mind the S1 had models that sold for a grand - and didn't compare at all to the $300 TiVo HD. The S2DT is only less expensive than the HD due to the rebate.
Let's be careful about comparing things from several years ago as well as comparing prices which have unseen factors like margin differences.

But I will keep this idea in mind especially with regard to the TiVo HD Spec thread.

[David Scavo]

TiVo says they have no plans for lifetime transfers to the TiVo HD at this time.
That is really a shame. I think they would sell a LOT of TIVOHD boxes to old Series 1 users.

There wouldn't be TIVO without those folks who ponied up $499 for 14 hours or $999 for 30 hours. Geez, throw a bone to the long-time members of the TIVOlution :)

[jmpage2]

That is really a shame. I think they would sell a LOT of TIVOHD boxes to old Series 1 users.

There wouldn't be TIVO without those folks who ponied up $499 for 14 hours or $999 for 30 hours. Geez, throw a bone to the long-time members of the TIVOlution :)

TIVO is a business and needs to make money. It's not like you can say they are making huge $$$ on these new $299 boxes.

They could come out with Gen 4 Tivo in 3 years and we'd still see people unhappy if they didn't grandfather in the Gen 1 owners for a small fee.

[wizzy]

That is really a shame. I think they would sell a LOT of TIVOHD boxes to old Series 1 users.

There wouldn't be TIVO without those folks who ponied up $499 for 14 hours or $999 for 30 hours. Geez, throw a bone to the long-time members of the TIVOlution :)

I'm a series 1 lifetime owner who would jump at the transfer. As it is, I'm probably going to replace a non-upgraded s2 with this new box, and keep my upgraded/networked s1 chugging along.

[dbenrosen]

That is really a shame. I think they would sell a LOT of TIVOHD boxes to old Series 1 users.

There wouldn't be TIVO without those folks who ponied up $499 for 14 hours or $999 for 30 hours. Geez, throw a bone to the long-time members of the TIVOlution :)

They did throw us a bone when they let us transfer our lifetime S1 to the S3. Once the S3 price came down a little from the original $800, I jumped at it. Sure, the new TivoHD unit is cheaper, buy I'm happy they gave me the chance to switch. And my S1 is still chugging away recording stuff for the kids under the "free" year of service they gave me for the switch.

TiVo has given numerous opportunities to switch a lifetime S1 to a newer box, both with the S2 and with the S3. Just because you didn't take advantage of it at the time doesn't mean they should do it again. Remember that TiVo isn't generating any money on your lifetime subscription. Letting you extend that to a new box doesn't generate any new revenue for them either.

[TVerBeek]

TiVo has given numerous opportunities to switch a lifetime S1 to a newer box, both with the S2 and with the S3. Just because you didn't take advantage of it at the time doesn't mean they should do it again. Remember that TiVo isn't generating any money on your lifetime subscription. Letting you extend that to a new box doesn't generate any new revenue for them either.But it would make me more likely to buy a new TiVo HD, which is more money than they'll get from me if I don't. I didn't take advantage of the chance to transfer my lifetime subscription from my S1 to an S2 because the S2 was crippled (no OTA recording) and therefore useless to me, and I didn't bite for a transfer to the S3 because that box was overconfigured and overpriced. I understand and agree that TiVo doesn't owe me a transfer, but it would be both courteous and an arguably good business decision to give me the same chance others have had, now that they have a replacement for my S1 that actually meets my requirements.

[David Scavo]

TIVO is a business and needs to make money. It's not like you can say they are making huge $$$ on these new $299 boxes.I think at $299 for the box and $199 for a LT transfer, they are making more than a little profit there...

I am just making a public request. I can already record in HD with TIVO (HR10-250). Surely TiVO would prefer my $500 to the $1 a month they get from DirecTV for my TiVo usage.

[David Scavo]

TiVo has given numerous opportunities to switch a lifetime S1 to a newer box, both with the S2 and with the S3.Several. For me, none of the offers were compelling enough (S2 too limited, S3 too expensive). It was my choice, I agree...

Remember that TiVo isn't generating any money on your lifetime subscription. Letting you extend that to a new box doesn't generate any new revenue for them either.I don't see how you can say they don't generate money on a PAID Lifetime transfer. They make money on the box and on the $199 lifetime transfer. It actually REDUCES their cost to service my sub, since service data now comes over the Internet and not expensive dialup modem pool. So TIVO gets a profit on the hardware, reduces their service cost, and gets $199 to spread over 4 years. Sounds like a win for TiVo and a win for Series 1 users.

They certainly will not make as much as if I signed up for a 3 year contract, but I am not willing to pay through the nose per month when I get HD recording and multiple SD recorders (all using TIVO technology) from DirecTV for free each month (whichs nets TIVO a cool $1 per month).

[David Scavo]

agree that TiVo doesn't owe me a transfer, but it would be both courteous and an arguably good business decision to give me the same chance others have had, now that they have a replacement for my S1 that actually meets my requirements.Well said, TVerBeek.

[bicker]

But it would make me more likely to buy a new TiVo HD, which is more money than they'll get from me if I don't.You're just one guy. What matters is how many current lifetime subscribers will still buy a new TiVo HD while keeping lifetime on their aging S1s and S2s. They could readily trump you.

[David Scavo]

You're just one guy. What matters is how many current lifetime subscribers will still buy a new TiVo HD while keeping lifetime on their aging S1s and S2s. They could readily trump you.You are probably right on there....

I can certainly see where it is a LOT harder for S1 folks to turn down $299 vs $799 / $499. Personally, I can already record HD with TiVo (HR10-250), so I can afford to wait :)

[TVerBeek]

You're just one guy. What matters is how many current lifetime subscribers will still buy a new TiVo HD while keeping lifetime on their aging S1s and S2s. They could readily trump you.Or they might not. I think you overestimate the number of people who want two or more TiVos around the house. (The folks who populate this forum and boast about their TiVo farms are not exactly representative of the market, or the installed base.) When I heard about this new model, I thought briefly about keeping the S1 and taking advantage of the MSD to get cheaper monthly service for the HD... but what would I actually do with the S1? I'd have little use for it, and even less after analog OTA goes dark. I'd rather sell it to some poor satellite or analog cable subscriber, and it's in TiVo Inc's interest for it to have the lifetime service removed from it (i.e. transferred to my hypothetical new TiVo HD) before I do that, so it can snag them a new monthly subscriber, rather than continuing to be a no-income albatross for them to support.

I should add that charging me $199 to transfer my lifetime service wouldn't feel a whole lot different to me than charging me $199 for lifetime service in the first place. That wouldn't be a "transfer"; it'd be an offer to again sell me lifetime service, on a new box, at the original price. Still a kind gesture of appreciation to an early supporter, but not exactly a bank-breaking sacrifice on their part.

[HDTiVo]

I doubt TiVo makes a profit at $299.99

[bicker]

Or they might not. I think you overestimate the number of people who want two or more TiVos around the house. Well, time will tell. I'm pretty sure that you're wrong about that. The people who put out the big bucks for lifetime in the first place are often those who are so committed to TiVo to be happy to have two or more.

(The folks who populate this forum and boast about their TiVo farms are not exactly representative of the market, or the installed base.)Neither are lifetime subscribers. I'm not even sure which group would have a greater percentage of enthusiasts -- the membership of this website, or lifetime subscribers -- but both would almost surely have a far greater percentage of enthusiasts than the market or the installed base.

I should add that charging me $199 to transfer my lifetime service wouldn't feel a whole lot different to me than charging me $199 for lifetime service in the first place. That wouldn't be a "transfer"; it'd be an offer to again sell me lifetime service, on a new box, at the original price. Still a kind gesture of appreciation to an early supporter, but not exactly a bank-breaking sacrifice on their part.I think you perhaps don't really know whether or not it would be a sacrifice on their part or not.

[HDTiVo]

I should add that charging me $199 to transfer my lifetime service wouldn't feel a whole lot different to me than charging me $199 for lifetime service in the first place.
$199 is probably not practical for real Lifetime, but TiVo is probably coming around to realize they hurt themselves badly by dropping it completely.

[crouch]

Aren't you grandfathered into a free transfer of lifetime service?

I noted your join date to this forum was in December 1999. If you bought your Series 1 at that time (I think before January 27, 2000), you should be grandfathered in to one free transfer of your lifetime subscription. Do a search on this site for the code that you should reference when talking to the Tivo rep.

[David Scavo]

Aren't you grandfathered into a free transfer of lifetime service?

I noted your join date to this forum was in December 1999. If you bought your Series 1 at that time (I think before January 27, 2000), you should be grandfathered in to one free transfer of your lifetime subscription. Do a search on this site for the code that you should reference when talking to the Tivo rep.I went monthly for a few months before I went lifetime (box prices of $499 were a killer back then). So I don't think I am technically eligible for the transfer.

[TVerBeek]

Well, time will tell. I'm pretty sure that you're wrong about that. The people who put out the big bucks for lifetime in the first place are often those who are so committed to TiVo to be happy to have two or more.Hi, there. I'd like to introduce myself. I paid for lifetime service way back when because it was a blindingly obvious better deal than month-to-month, and I have no interest in owning two or more TiVos. You now have a data set of two rather than just your own subjective viewpoint.
I think you perhaps don't really know whether or not it would be a sacrifice on their part or not.And you do? Get over yourself, dude.

[bicker]

You are just one more person.

As I said: Time will tell.

[GoHokies!]

And you do? Get over yourself, dude.Actually, bicker's been around here and involved in discussions about lifetime and Tivo's business for a long time, so he does have a bit of an idea of what he's talking about. You may have to challenge that narrow worldview of yours and accept the fact that someone may know something that you don't.

Tearing someone else down generally isn't the best way to build yourself up, "dude".

[TVerBeek]

Actually, bicker's been around here and involved in discussions about lifetime and Tivo's business for a long timeHanging around here and chatting with other fanatics doesn't give one much perspective on the rest of the market, which is what he imagines himself to be a mind-reading expert on. I'm not here to earn points, or find same-thinking friends, so I don't mind challenging him on that.

[MickeS]

Hanging around here and chatting with other fanatics doesn't give one much perspective on the rest of the market, which is what he imagines himself to be a mind-reading expert on. I'm not here to earn points, or find same-thinking friends, so I don't mind challenging him on that.
FWIW, I'm another single-TiVo with Lifetime user. :)

Well, until I bought the Series 3 earlier this year.

[ZeoTiVo]

Hanging around here and chatting with other fanatics doesn't give one much perspective on the rest of the market, which is what he imagines himself to be a mind-reading expert on. I'm not here to earn points, or find same-thinking friends, so I don't mind challenging him on that.
I had a poll in coffeehouse on who was waiting on lifetime transfer to buy a TiVoHD. The people in the forum who responded and wanted to buy a TiVo HD overwhelmingly said they would wait for a lifetime transfer.

however I also see a lot of new faces and ids in the forums, clearly indicating the TiVop HD has generated a large amount of interest. If this translates into the TiVo HD selling well then TiVo really has no marketing incentive to offer the transfer at any price. the only value left is to move more people off of S1 lifetimes, which doers not seem to be enough in itself yet. I also wonder if TiVo is leaving the lifetime transfer as an advantage for buying the higher priced original S3 HD model

[bicker]

Don't confuse him with facts, please. ;)

[Koan]

... the only value left is to move more people off of S1 lifetimes, which doers not seem to be enough in itself yet. Agree. If Tivo wanted to move people off the S1 lifetimes, the best time to offer the transfer was when the Tivo HD was introduced. The longer the delay, the more S1 lifetime owners will have bought the Tivo HD and put it on the MSD plan. Under MSD, they will want to keep the S1 active as long as possible.