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George Webster
06-30-2007, 09:27 AM
People on this forum have reported that when they connect their OTA antenna directly to their TV, they can recieve channel 8.1 WTNH in connecticut just fine. However, they cannot recieve it on their Series 3 Tivo.

Is it possible to purchase a non-Tivo DVR that can record 8.1 WTNH? Is anyone having success with a different brand? High definition?

The Series two only handles satillite and cable TV - no over the air antenna and no High Definition.

bicker
06-30-2007, 09:53 AM
Huh? I have an OTA connected to my TiVo Series 3 and receive my local channels here in the Boston area no problem. Why would WTNH be different? If it is, then maybe it would be better to get WTNH to fix their problem! :)

The Series 3 only support OTA and cable -- NOT satellite. There are no other DVRs, currently in production, and currently being sold in retail stores, that support recording HD OTA and/or cable.

Redux
06-30-2007, 01:37 PM
Is it possible to purchase a non-Tivo DVR that can record 8.1 WTNH?The WTNH problem is limited almost exclusvely to the Tivo series 3. Any other receiver/DVR will probably work fine. The HR10-250, for example, has no problems at all.

Note when I say "WTNH" I mean the WTNH-type of s3 problem, which is happening with a number of local stations in various locations.

bicker
06-30-2007, 03:41 PM
Can someone please provide a link to a detailed description of the problem, how it manifests, what TiVo has said about the issue, etc?

George Webster
07-01-2007, 02:48 PM
Can someone please provide a link to a detailed description of the problem, how it manifests, what TiVo has said about the issue, etc?

In another thread a poster was decribing this problem with WTNH. He said that Tivo support had him look up the PID number on the Tivo system informatin screen when tuned to 8.1 WTHN. He also said there were no numbers listed next to the PID. He said Tivo suppoert told him that means that WTNH is not sending the information that will allow the Tivo to decode the signal.

I for one do not buy that because all three of my televisions decode the signal just fine and the problem seems to be only on the Tivo, as many others have confirmed with their own televisions.

harley52
07-01-2007, 04:26 PM
I for one do not buy that because all three of my televisions decode the signal just fine and the problem seems to be only on the Tivo, as many others have confirmed with their own televisions.

Just a suggestion. Try the local thread in the AVS forum for a discussion on this. One other thing. I assume you don't have a TiVo S3 so unless you actually look at the pids on the S3 for that station you can't say that TiVo is providing an invalid argument.

Redux
07-01-2007, 04:40 PM
unless you actually look at the pids on the S3 for that station you can't say that TiVo is providing an invalid argument.I don't understand what you're saying. The three PID entries (of six) are not there for the offending digital stations (including WTNH). Whether they are not being broadcast, or just not being read by the Tivo s3 I don't know; do you? And if they are not being broadcast but required by digital broadcasting standards, how do digital TVs and other brands of digital receivers see the offending stations fine?

George Webster
07-01-2007, 08:11 PM
Just a suggestion. Try the local thread in the AVS forum for a discussion on this. One other thing. I assume you don't have a TiVo S3 so unless you actually look at the pids on the S3 for that station you can't say that TiVo is providing an invalid argument.

I do have an S3 and on WTNH there are no numbers next to the three PID entrys on the System information screen.

George Webster
07-01-2007, 08:13 PM
The three PID entries (of six) are not there for the offending digital stations (including WTNH). Whether they are not being broadcast, or just not being read by the Tivo s3 I don't know; do you? And if they are not being broadcast but required by digital broadcasting standards, how do digital TVs and other brands of digital receivers see the offending stations fine?

My point exactly. I think that since other tuners can tune WTNH just fine that Tivo is hosing us.

jcrewdson
07-01-2007, 08:36 PM
I have a Samsung HDTV and a Tivo S2. The S2 is between the set-top box and the HDTV. Thus, the signal reaching the HDTV is not an HD signal. When I use the 16:9 aspect the picture is badly distorted like one of those fun-house mirrors. Is there any solution to this problem short of laying out $800 for a Tivo S3?

SugarBowl
07-01-2007, 09:00 PM
I think all threads should be titled "Does anyone know?"

harley52
07-02-2007, 06:39 AM
My point exactly. I think that since other tuners can tune WTNH just fine that Tivo is hosing us.

I don't know much about OTA but I do understand the pids. So I'm not understanding what you are saying. On the stations you do receive OTA are there pids? On cable there are thre pids: PCR, Audio, and Video. PCR and Video must match or else the channel will not come in.

So if you are telling me that on the stations you do receive OTA you don't have pids then that's a whole different understanding from what I have.

Bierboy
07-02-2007, 08:56 AM
I think all threads should be titled "Does anyone know?"
Yeah.....that really narrows down the question/problem.

GoHokies!
07-02-2007, 12:08 PM
Is it possible to purchase a non-Tivo DVR that can record 8.1 WTNH? Is anyone having success with a different brand? High definition?Such a beast exists? ;)

Seriously, this has been a problem off and on in different locations. The S3 expects the PSIP data transmitted to be correct and doesn't handle missing or incorrect data as well as other tuners.

Technically, the problem is with the TV station, as their PSIP data is messed up. Funtionally, the Tivo should do a better job of handling it, although once you get outside the specs all bets are off.

George Webster
07-02-2007, 05:59 PM
I don't know much about OTA but I do understand the pids. So I'm not understanding what you are saying. On the stations you do receive OTA are there pids? On cable there are thre pids: PCR, Audio, and Video. PCR and Video must match or else the channel will not come in.

So if you are telling me that on the stations you do receive OTA you don't have pids then that's a whole different understanding from what I have.

I recieve 5 local stations and they all have PIDS. WTNH is the sixth channel, it comes in at 99-100 on the signal level meter but no picture at all and no PIDS.

George Webster
07-02-2007, 06:04 PM
The S3 expects the PSIP data transmitted to be correct and doesn't handle missing or incorrect data as well as other tuners.

Technically, the problem is with the TV station, as their PSIP data is messed up. Funtionally, the Tivo should do a better job of handling it, although once you get outside the specs all bets are off.

Your first paragraph, I say, then Tivo should fix their problem. My cheap $199 17 inch LCD tunes WTNH just fine. So do two of my other televisions.

As for your second paragraph, I have not seen anyone prove your point, therefore it seems like speculation. Even crappy TV's can tune WTNH - Tivo should too.

George Webster
07-02-2007, 06:09 PM
I think all threads should be titled "Does anyone know?"

We can do without the wise cracks.

Bierboy
07-02-2007, 07:01 PM
We can do without the wise cracks.I don't think so....they brighten my day http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k137/Bierboy/Emoticons/7up.gif

GoHokies!
07-02-2007, 08:29 PM
Your first paragraph, I say, then Tivo should fix their problem. My cheap $199 17 inch LCD tunes WTNH just fine. So do two of my other televisions.

As for your second paragraph, I have not seen anyone prove your point, therefore it seems like speculation. Even crappy TV's can tune WTNH - Tivo should too.
There is a problem on both ends, both should "fix" it. Taking a strict view of it, the Tivo is "more" correct, since it is operating do standards.

I haven't seen anyone prove the point with this station - it was well documented a while back on the forums here with a station out in California (Sacramento, I think?).

Have you called Tivo yet? I believe in the case that I was thinking of, they ended up contacting the station and getting them to set things right. It's a heck of a lot easier to get one engineer at one TV station to make a change than it is to roll out a software patch that affects the whole country.

Also, have you checked avsforums? Look in the HDTV reception thread for the area, there's a decent chance that an engineer from the TV station hangs out there (at least that's the case in the Washington DC thread) and may be able to get the problem solved.

George Webster
07-02-2007, 09:38 PM
<< Taking a strict view of it, the Tivo is "more" correct, since it is operating do standards >>

I have read this and other forums a lot. Nowhere do I see proof that Tivo standards make it more correct. To me, that is just a myth perpetuated by people with no proff what the problem really is, including posters parroting that Tivo has trouble tuning stations because it adheres to some mythical standard that remains undefined and the posters really have no clue whether they are correct, they just offer words with no links to prove their words.

<< Have you called Tivo yet? >>

Yes, they say to install a signal booster. I did. It did no good. Signal before the booster was 99-100 but no picture showing.

<< It's a heck of a lot easier to get one engineer at one TV station to make a change than it is to roll out a software patch that affects the whole country >>

It might be a hardware problem, not software.

<< Also, have you checked avsforums? >>

Yes, nobody there really knows anything either. Some people are guessing that it is a Tivo problem and some are guessing it is a station problem. Nobody really has the definitive answer yet. It is very frustrating.

<< Look in the HDTV reception thread for the area, there's a decent chance that an engineer from the TV station hangs out there (at least that's the case in the Washington DC thread) and may be able to get the problem solved >>

If that were true then the problem would already have been fixed. Plenty of people are talking about this problem already, in that forum.

Arcady
07-02-2007, 09:45 PM
My cheap $199 17 inch LCD tunes WTNH just fine.

Where do you get a 17" LCD with an ATSC tuner in it for $199? Or are you tuning an analog version of the channel on your cheap TV and claiming TiVo is broken by tuning the digital version?

GoHokies!
07-02-2007, 10:06 PM
<< Taking a strict view of it, the Tivo is "more" correct, since it is operating do standards >>

I have read this and other forums a lot. Nowhere do I see proof that Tivo standards make it more correct. To me, that is just a myth perpetuated by people with no proff what the problem really is, including posters parroting that Tivo has trouble tuning stations because it adheres to some mythical standard that remains undefined and the posters really have no clue whether they are correct, they just offer words with no links to prove their words.
We're not taking about mythical Tivo made up standards here. Go read www.psip.org (http://www.psip.org/) for more details. There really is a rigid set of standards that govern what is supposed to be in the PSIP data and how it should be formatted. Tivo expects the data to follow that standard and doesn't tune stations that do it wrong.

That's not speculation, it isn't a hardware problem, it's a fact. Call Tivo and tell them exactly that and get escalated to someone that knows what they are talking about. Do a little bit of cursory research here and find the several cases of it that have been documented on this site.

GoHokies!
07-02-2007, 10:10 PM
Try looking at these two threads for starters, since you won't take the two minutes it took me to find these two examples:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=317774&page=1&pp=30&highlight=toxic
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=327543&highlight=PSIP

The symptoms are a little different, but it points to the same problems with PSIP data.

bicker
07-03-2007, 06:03 AM
We can do without the wise cracks.Well, I took the joke to be a polite but subtle reminder to the OP to edit the title of this thread, if possible.

George Webster
07-03-2007, 08:34 AM
Where do you get a 17" LCD with an ATSC tuner in it for $199? Or are you tuning an analog version of the channel on your cheap TV and claiming TiVo is broken by tuning the digital version?

The $199 special was a blowout from Tiger Direct. I am tuning 8.1, a digital station on the cheap TV.

George Webster
07-03-2007, 08:43 AM
We're not taking about mythical Tivo made up standards here. Go read www.psip.org (http://www.psip.org/) for more details. There really is a rigid set of standards that govern what is supposed to be in the PSIP data and how it should be formatted. Tivo expects the data to follow that standard and doesn't tune stations that do it wrong.

That's not speculation, it isn't a hardware problem, it's a fact. Call Tivo and tell them exactly that and get escalated to someone that knows what they are talking about. Do a little bit of cursory research here and find the several cases of it that have been documented on this site.

I worded my post badly. By mythical I was not implying that the PSIP standard is mythical. What I was trying to say is that I believe that the posters who strongly claim that the fault is not with the TIvo could be perpetuating a myth, based on not truly having all the facts.

In other words, how can anyone really be sure that there is not something wrong with the Tivo tuner hardware which might be mistakingly being blamed on the TV station?

philwojo
07-03-2007, 09:58 AM
I think the TIVO is functioning as designed and per the PSIP specs. If it does not see the PSIP data then it does not know what to do with the station, even though there is a signal.

Other system are not seein ght PSIP data, but if they see a signal they are choosing to just display it any way. That does not make it correct, but it is what they are doing. Tivo is adhering to the specs and doing it the "proper" way, per the current specs that are laid out.

The station should fix it and start transmitting PSIP data, then if the S3 TIVO does not tune it in, go to TIVO and blame them, but until that time I don't see TIVO doing anything about this, and in reality why should they.

As a company would it make sense to redesign software, and possibly hardware to be out of spec when it is a handful of stations not complying to the specs? I don't think that makes any sense.

Phil

GoHokies!
07-03-2007, 10:38 AM
I worded my post badly. By mythical I was not implying that the PSIP standard is mythical. What I was trying to say is that I believe that the posters who strongly claim that the fault is not with the TIvo could be perpetuating a myth, based on not truly having all the facts.

In other words, how can anyone really be sure that there is not something wrong with the Tivo tuner hardware which might be mistakingly being blamed on the TV station?
Gotcha, in your case I don't know for sure. In the other cases linked, it was the TV station that was at fault. I find it highly improbable that there would be an error in the Tivo that would only manifest itself when presented with proper PSIP data from only one station out of the thousands across the USA. I suppose that it's possible, though.

Phil's comments above are really on point. I'd much rather have a standards compliant device than one that is hacked up to work with a handful of stations that can't get it right. It's kind of like the difference between Mozilla and Internet Explorer.

George Webster
07-03-2007, 10:50 AM
<< I think the TIVO is functioning as designed and per the PSIP specs. If it does not see the PSIP data then it does not know what to do with the station, even though there is a signal >>

So you are saying the Tivo needs PSIP data to decode the signal. I hear that.

<< Other system are not seein the PSIP data, but if they see a signal they are choosing to just display it any way >>

That is contradictory. Other devices also need the PSIP data to decode the signal.

<< The station should fix it and start transmitting PSIP data, then if the S3 TIVO does not tune it in, go to TIVO and blame them >>

If the PSIP data is not being transmitted, and I am not saying that it is not, then how do other TV's decode the signal with "non-existant" PSIP information?

ZeoTiVo
07-03-2007, 10:55 AM
I worded my post badly. By mythical I was not implying that the PSIP standard is mythical. What I was trying to say is that I believe that the posters who strongly claim that the fault is not with the TIvo could be perpetuating a myth, based on not truly having all the facts.

In other words, how can anyone really be sure that there is not something wrong with the Tivo tuner hardware which might be mistakingly being blamed on the TV station?
The PSIP org has published a standard. The majority of channels tune properly in digital OTA on the S3. There are cases where an engineer at the TV station saw the issue and did something on their end that had the S3 tune the station correctly. These are the facts we are working within. Please let us know when you want to leave your mythical world.


the thing to consider here is that the TV is just putting the signal on the TV monitor. They can play fast and loose with how they handle the signal. They are not doing any processing on the signal.
A DVR on the other hand has to lay down the video and audio to the hard drive and do some processing to ensure the video and audio match back up on playback. The PID info was placed there to help such a processing step. TiVo has a more exacting need than a TV does. To deal with out of spec stations they will need to understand the ramifications of lossening their code from the spec, specifically what it will do to recordings across a broad spectrum of stations in the US.

George Webster
07-03-2007, 11:03 AM
Try looking at these two threads for starters, since you won't take the two minutes it took me to find these two examples:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=317774&page=1&pp=30&highlight=toxic
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=327543&highlight=PSIP

The symptoms are a little different, but it points to the same problems with PSIP data.

I read the all the posts on your first link. They all had to do with tuning to a certqain channel causing a reboot. NOT related to the problem I am describing, therefore I did not waste my time reading your second link.

George Webster
07-03-2007, 11:09 AM
<< In the other cases linked, it was the TV station that was at fault >>

Your first link does not relate to the problem I am describing. I assume the second link is just as much in error.

<< I find it highly improbable that there would be an error in the Tivo that would only manifest itself when presented with proper PSIP data from only one station out of the thousands across the USA >>

It has nothing to do with thousands if the Tivo has some problem tuning 8.1 and that channel does not exist in each local broadcast market. Do all broadcast markets have a channel on 8.1?

George Webster
07-03-2007, 11:17 AM
<< There are cases where an engineer at the TV station saw the issue and did something on their end that had the S3 tune the station correctly >>

Where can I read that?

Redux
07-03-2007, 12:34 PM
the TV is just putting the signal on the TV monitor. They can play fast and loose with how they handle the signal. They are not doing any processing on the signal.
A DVR on the other hand has to lay down the video and audio to the hard drive and do some processing to ensure the video and audio match back up on playback. The PID info was placed there to help such a processing step. TiVo has a more exacting need than a TV does.The HR10-250 DVR receives the offending channels just fine, with no "video and audio match" problems.

This thread is focusing on WTNH, which is fine, but the presumption seems drifting to the notion this is a single instance. There are about seven stations I've read about with the same problem. Here are the symptoms:
1. The channel was originally received fine, with appropriate guide data.
2. The channel audio & video disappears, with the meter still indicating a good and steady signal. Guide data is intact,
3. The station acknowledges "upgrading" their digital equipment at the time the problem occured.
4. Receivers and TVs, including the DirecTV/Tivo HR10-250, continue to receive the channel fine, except for the Tivo s3 and Windows Media Center (I don't know what tha'ts about, it's just what I read).

Other symptoms frequently noted:
5. At the time of disruption, OTHER devices are affected, but quickly resume normal behavior.
6. The audio & video of the offending channel shows up, without guide data, at another location. For most users this wandering channel disappears on re-scan but there have been reports of it surviving. From time to time this wandering channel may re-appear.
7. In the case of WTNH, which happens to operate another digital channel, WCTX, the problem also occured briefly on WCTX at the same time.

Both Tivo and the local stations are having trouble focusing, because the calls they're getting from the few people with this problem are hopelessly lost among the many thousands of calls from people who have weak or multi-path-distorted signals, temporary mis-mapping glitches that can be solved with a rescan, or a variety of user errors some of which are coming from idiots driving CSRs and other station and Tivo personnel crazy.

When YOU call, you are by default an idiot, because that's what they're used to. Hour after hour, day after day.

ZeoTiVo
07-03-2007, 12:44 PM
Both Tivo and the local stations are having trouble focusing, because the calls they're getting from the few people with this problem are hopelessly lost among the many thousands of calls from people who have weak or multi-path-distorted signals, temporary mis-mapping glitches that can be solved with a rescan, or a variety of user errors some of which are coming from idiots driving CSRs and other station and Tivo personnel crazy.

When YOU call, you are by default an idiot, because that's what they're used to. Hour after hour, day after day.
I take your point that calling in to the CSRs at TiVo will only frustrate the caller on this type of error. There is no clear script for them to follow and it takes some troubleshooting skills and willingness on the part of the caller to go through some steps to seperate out the real incidents from the background noise.

TiVo is aware of this problem however and anything that can be done to give them more details to go on will help them truly establish a root cause.

Have you posted your details in the Help forum here? TiVoJerry reads and repsonds in there and the kind of detail you are starting to provide is just the kind of thing he would like to get more of. Even if he does not respond directly any new info would get to the right people at TiVo

GoHokies!
07-03-2007, 03:09 PM
I read the all the posts on your first link. They all had to do with tuning to a certqain channel causing a reboot. NOT related to the problem I am describing, therefore I did not waste my time reading your second link.Same problem, different symptoms. out of standard PSIP data does bad things. No, there's isn't an 8.1 in every market, but I guarantee that you're not the only 8.1 in the US and you are the only one that has problems. If there was some hardware problem that meant that your Tivo couldn't tune 8.1 (which is really VHF channel 10, 193.25MHz), it would be evident all over the place as there are dozens of stations around the country that broadcast on that frequency. Strangely, nobody outside of CT is reporting problems with stations broadcast on that frequency.

If you're not going to "waste your time" reading the links I find for you, I'm not going to waste my time looking for any more.

I don't recall offhand were it was that the PSIP got fixed by the station making a change and quite frankly, I'm tired of doing research that you should be doing to solve your own problem and then being insulted for it. If you were interested in educating yourself and solving the problem, and not just mindlessly blaming Tivo for your problems, you may actually get a little help around here. They say that ignorance is bliss, there must be something to that.

Good day,
Ryan

Redux
07-03-2007, 04:05 PM
first link does not relate to the problem I am describing.True. He was trying to be helpful, but it is this type of confusion that makes trouble shooting difficult.

If you search really well here, AVS-wide, and half a dozen other venues you will still find nothing definitive, just repetitions of the same core problem in other locations, mixed sporadically in threads that are a huge mish-mash of other difficulties which the posters honestly felt were the same but are not. One of the biggest problems is that digital stations occasionally go off the air briefly, and even wander. One station engineer honestly admitted to me that his bosses (technical and administrative) still regard digital as experimental and that his time on it is regarded as non-productive at this point. Obviously this is going to change as deadline approaches. Anyway, when these things _do_ happen, the relevant threads get a lot of noise added; hard to sift through.

if the Tivo has some problem tuning 8.1 and that channel does not exist in each local broadcast market. Do all broadcast markets have a channel on 8.1?It has nothing to do with "8.1" as such. Reports are on a variety of channel numbers and in any case these designations are just where the channels are mapped and are frequently are not the actual broadcast slot.

Actually in one location other than WTNH I think the channel _was_ 8.1 but that was coincidence.

George Webster
07-03-2007, 04:05 PM
<< Same problem, different symptoms. out of standard PSIP data does bad things >>

If you read that thread there is no info there to support the notion that the problem was PSIP data.

<< No, there's isn't an 8.1 in every market, but I guarantee that you're not the only 8.1 in the US and you are the only one that has problems >>

Maybe the only one who bought a realitively new product and maybe other people with the same problem have not found tivocommunity.com yet. ALL the evidennce is not in YET.

Maybe the problem manifests itself on different channels for different people around the country. I repeat, three other televisions tune 8.1 just fine. Get it?

<< If there was some hardware problem that meant that your Tivo couldn't tune 8.1 (which is really VHF channel 10, 193.25MHz), it would be evident all over the place as there are dozens of stations around the country that broadcast on that frequency. Strangely, nobody outside of CT is reporting problems with stations broadcast on that frequency >>

Not that WE know of, that does not mean they do not exist. Maybe they never heard of Tivocommunity.com

<< If you're not going to "waste your time" reading the links I find for you, I'm not going to waste my time looking for any more >>

Your info was inaccurate anyway. Time to use what God put between your ears.

<< I'm tired of doing research that you should be doing to solve your own problem and then being insulted for it >>

No insults, just disagreement.

<< If you were interested in educating yourself and solving the problem, and not just mindlessly blaming Tivo for your problems, you may actually get a little help around here >>

Where is the proof that the PSIP info WTNH is sending is "out of spec"

George Webster
07-03-2007, 04:17 PM
<< He was trying to be helpful, but it is this type of confusion that makes trouble shooting difficult >>

I appreciate his effort but I believe he is not catching the fact that he has no real proof that it is a station problem. Only his opinion.

<< If you search really well here, AVS-wide, and half a dozen other venues you will still find nothing definitive, just repetitions of the same core problem in other locations, mixed sporadically in threads that are a huge mish-mash of other difficulties which the posters honestly felt were the same but are not >>

This problem has been around for a while, as evidensed by the dates on posts. It is unbeliebvable that the human race cannot solve an issue with a DVR. How did we get to the moon?

<< when these things _do_ happen, the relevant threads get a lot of noise added; hard to sift through >>

What gets me is the people who say it is a station problem with little or no proof of that.

For me, my intelect reminds me that if three Televisions I own can tune 8.1 the Tivo should also do it. Did we really go to the moon?

<< It has nothing to do with "8.1" as such. Reports are on a variety of channel numbers and in any case these designations are just where the channels are mapped and are frequently are not the actual broadcast slot >>

Good point

Redux
07-03-2007, 04:45 PM
What gets me is the people who say it is a station problem with little or no proof of thatWe differ a bit here. Clearly the evidence shows the disappearance of the stations occurs concurrent with the station's "upgrading" their digital equipment. In four cases, at least, that I remember.

In the case of WTNH, they screwed up their other station in exactly the same way at exactly the same time, and were able to fix it.

Several viewers report the identical problem with the Windows Media Center (again I don't myself know anything about that) for the same channel beginning at exactly the same time.

I am almost certain that another model of receiver has also shown the same, but I can't locate that information at the moment.

All these indicate station problems (not necessarily a defect) in some combination with a specific incompatibility (not necessarily a defect) with the Tivo s3, WMC and perhaps others.

I believe if some good Tivo engineers got into serious and _high priority_ discussions with good engineers at the stations involved, each station would soon be able to get back on the air on our Tivo 3's. I tried to facilitate that; it almost happened but got sidetracked and I gave up.

This is a _tiny_ problem and somewhat complicated to deal with. Neither Tivo nor the stations involved have the time or commitment to give it priority.

Bottom line: I would arrange my life to do without WTNH digital OTA on a Tivo s3.

Redux
07-03-2007, 04:56 PM
I do agree it would be a great idea to rename the thread.

Tivo s3 problem receiving WTNH digital (8.1) OTA New Haven

WTNH (8.1) digital OTA New Haven gone missing from Tivo s3

No WTNH digital OTA (8.1) on Tivo s3; strong signal, guide OK

George Webster
07-03-2007, 10:33 PM
<< We differ a bit here. Clearly the evidence shows the disappearance of the stations occurs concurrent with the station's "upgrading" their digital equipment. In four cases, at least, that I remember >>

Well then, perhaps I am wrong and it may be a station issue. Maybe we can work togetrher to craft a letter to WTNH and the FCC. It will be a while before I am free to start my version. Maybe by the weekend.

Perhaps there is hope that some day I will be able to recieve 8.1. I just hope it is before the anolog version signs off in February of 2009.

<< I believe if some good Tivo engineers got into serious and _high priority_ discussions with good engineers at the stations involved, each station would soon be able to get back on the air on our Tivo 3's. I tried to facilitate that; it almost happened but got sidetracked and I gave up >>

Are you listening Tivo. It would be good for your business to resolve issues like this. I believe as more and more people discover that they can recieve HD with a basic antenna and say goodbye to high TV bills, Tivo will have a goldmine. Listen up boys.

<< I would arrange my life to do without WTNH digital OTA on a Tivo s3 >>

I do not give up easily. I am not saying that you did either, I want to thank you for your input.

George Webster
07-03-2007, 10:38 PM
I do agree it would be a great idea to rename the thread.

I tried to rename the thread. It only renames the first post but not the way it comes up on the main forum screen.

MickeS
07-03-2007, 11:27 PM
Have you tried calling the station directly and asked about the missing PSIP info? It could be as easy as that they didn't even know about it and can fix it easily. Worth a shot, stranger things have happened.

Redux
07-04-2007, 12:42 AM
Have you tried calling the station directly and asked about the missing PSIP info?Oh, absolutely. Everybody with the problem should call; every intelligent call certainly adds weight. I have called; many have. Also emails. But yes, call.

But please be sure you are specific about the problem. They get calls from people who don't know the difference between 8 and 8.1; they get calls from people who aren't clear on OTA vs. cable; they get calls from people who have the wrong kind of antenna pointed in the wrong direction. Try to differentiate yourself from the masses, be clear about the specifics of this particular problem, above all be friendly and courteous.

Mr. Webster, the OP, is missing one key symptom in that his Tivo s3 is new so 8.1 didn't _disappear_ on him; as far as he can tell it was never there. Believe me, until the end of March 2007 it was there.

So _his_ relevant symptoms include: the OTA signal meter for WTNHDT 8.1 (frequency 10) is strong and steady; all other OTA digital channels he is supposed to see (based on his antenna type[s] and orientation[s]) he gets fine (if 59.1 is being received correctly this would be a good point to make); his receiver diagnostics show at least some of the PID data for WTHNDT is not being received while it _is_ being received for all the other local digital stations he is supposed to see and does see; his receiver is showing WTNHDT guide data correctly. He understands from word-of-mouth on the internet where WTNH is being discussed in front of a fairly large national internet audience, that many others are suffering from the same problem involving Tivos, Windows Media Center, and perhaps other brands of receivers (though you admit not by most).

If you're calling WTNH specifically, as opposed to some of the other areas with the problem, you might mention that you understand that an engineer from Tivo named "Jerry" or "Gerry" was trying to make contact in May 2007 with the specific WTNH engineer most adept at digital issues, and you're wondering how that process is going. You might also mention that Angelo (engineering at WTNH) had conversations with some viewers about the problems at both 8.1 and 59.1 in late March 2007 when WTNH was installing some new equipment and having some PSIP problems, and you're wondering how any of that is playing out.

George Webster
07-04-2007, 07:58 PM
Have you tried calling the station directly and asked about the missing PSIP info? It could be as easy as that they didn't even know about it and can fix it easily. Worth a shot, stranger things have happened.

The diagnostics screen has three missing PID numbers that are supposedly the problem. Is that the same as PSIP? I have not called the station.

GoHokies!
07-04-2007, 09:38 PM
The diagnostics screen has three missing PID numbers that are supposedly the problem. Is that the same as PSIP? I have not called the station.
Yes.

The "proof" you have been seeking after all this time.

I'm sorry for not driving to CT and pushing the buttons for you, I'm sure that was a lot of effort for you. :rolleyes:

Redux
07-04-2007, 10:54 PM
Yes.

The "proof" you have been seeking after all this time.

I'm sorry for not driving to CT and pushing the buttons for you, I'm sure that was a lot of effort for you. :rolleyes:The issue, as it has been since about February, and then late March when it showed up on WTNH, is whether the missing PIDs (3 of the 6 as previously mentioned) are the failure of the broadcaster to properly send, or the Tivo (and others) to properly receive. Or, as I and others believe, an incompatiblity involving both.

I'm not sure what buttons you think you've pushed for the OP, but ... well we all certainly appreciate your ... effort ... to be helpful. Thanks.

GoHokies!
07-05-2007, 04:24 PM
The issue, as it has been since about February, and then late March when it showed up on WTNH, is whether the missing PIDs (3 of the 6 as previously mentioned) are the failure of the broadcaster to properly send, or the Tivo (and others) to properly receive. Or, as I and others believe, an incompatiblity involving both.

I'm not sure what buttons you think you've pushed for the OP, but ... well we all certainly appreciate your ... effort ... to be helpful. Thanks.
That's a real tough question, if there are thousands of Tivos around the country happily receiving PIDs from thousands of stations except for from one station (and even those Tivos receive the correct PID for every other station in the area), where do you think the problem is?

1. The TV station that is the common point, or
2. A random scattering of Tivos that all magically don't work on only one frequency and all ended up inside a 50 mile circle?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where the problem lies. :rolleyes:

MickeS
07-05-2007, 04:36 PM
How does one go about to get the diagnostics screen to show?

Redux
07-05-2007, 04:42 PM
How does one go about to get the diagnostics screen to show?Tivo Central/Messages & Settings/Account & System Information/Diagnostics

MickeS
07-05-2007, 04:47 PM
Tivo Central/Messages & Settings/Account & System Information/Diagnostics
Almost too easy.

George Webster
07-05-2007, 08:28 PM
whether the missing PIDs (3 of the 6 as previously mentioned) are the failure of the broadcaster to properly send, or the Tivo (and others) to properly receive.

On the diagnostics screen I only see 3 places for the PID to appear. Can you explain what you mean by six?

George Webster
07-05-2007, 11:07 PM
This is the letter I plan to send to WTNHDT and perhaps a revised version to the FCC.

Does anyone want to chime in on how the letter could be improved? Made any clearer?


Hello,

I recently purchased a TIVO Series 3 Digital Video Recorder. I mounted a high quality antenna on the roof, for over the air broadcasts. I am receiving all of the channels in my area with the exception of WTNHDT 8.1 (frequency 10)

The built in signal meter on the Tivo Series 3 says I am receiving WTNHDT 8.1 with a 97-100 signal level, out of a possible high of 100. The problem is that no picture appears, just a blank screen. The program guide data is accurate.

On www.tivocommunity.com there are other people who have the same problem and they assure me they were able to receive WTNHDT 8.1 up until approximately late March 2007.

Channel 59.1 (WCTXDT) is being received just fine, which I understand is also owned by LIN TV.

The Tivo series 3 Diagnostics screen shows that for WTNHDT there are no numbers in the following fields, while all the digital channels I do receive have numbers in these fields.

PCR PID
Video PID
Audio PID

Tivo support says that the missing PID numbers means that WTNHDT is not broadcasting the correct information that will allow the Tivo series 3 to decode and display the picture and audio. They also mentioned that the PCR PID and the Video PID need to have the same number.

Three TVís I own are all able to receive WTNHDT just fine when hooked to the antenna directly.

Is anyone looking into this matter and when can we expect the problem to be solved?

Thanks,

George Webster

Redux
07-06-2007, 12:05 AM
Suggestions as to form, content is fine:

"Hello,

I recently purchased a TIVO Series 3 Digital Video Recorder. From my high quality antenna I receive all of the channels in my area with the exception of WTNHDT 8.1 (frequency 10), for which there is no picture or sound, just a blank screen. The program guide data for WTNHDT is accurately displayed.

My antenna is set up properly to pick up a good signal from WTNHDT 8.1: the built-in signal meter on the Tivo Series 3 shows a steady signal level of 97-100%; three TVís receive WTNHDT just fine when hooked directly to this same antenna.

My Tivo series 3 Diagnostics screen shows entries in each of the following fields for all digital channels in my reception area except WTNHDT:

PCR PID, Video PID, Audio PID.

Tivo support says the missing PID numbers for WTNHDT mean that WTNHDT is not broadcasting the correct information needed to allow the Tivo series 3 to display picture and audio.

On www.tivocommunity.com and www.avsforum.com there are others reporting the same problem; they assure me they were able to receive WTNHDT 8.1 up until approximately late March 2007, at which point it disappeared.

I am receiving channel 59.1 (WCTXDT), which I understand is also owned by LIN TV, just fine.

I would appreciate your assurance you are looking into this matter, and would like to know when you expect the problem to be solved.

Thanks,"

vstone
07-06-2007, 08:47 AM
The PSIP org has published a standard.
... I assume that their standard agree with the PSIP requirements of federal law (ie the ATSC standard) (and hopefully is easier to read and comprehend).

vstone
07-06-2007, 08:52 AM
Anybody notice a similarity between this problem and the S3 on cable without a cablecard clear QAM problem? Some people (like me) blame the cable companies, some blame Tivo and want Tivo to spend money to correct problems caused by cable companies, and some don't care as long as its fixed but would like Tivo to at least comment on the problem.

vstone
07-06-2007, 08:55 AM
I think all threads should be titled "Does anyone know?"when I saw this thread I wondered if I should respond by quoting Marcel Marceau in Mel Brooks' 'Silent Movie' ("No!") or by referencing Chicago (" No, and I don't care what time it is either.").

George Webster
07-06-2007, 09:10 AM
Redux, thanks for your suggestions. I was thinking that it would be a good idea to send the letter to WTNH but also to their mother company, LIN TV. I found their website. They own 29 stations.

http://www.lintv.com/about/overview.html

George Webster
07-06-2007, 09:17 AM
some don't care as long as its fixed but would like Tivo to at least comment on the problem.

I cannot answer your question but I can say it is maddening for me that TIVO is not taking it upon themselves to advise us on this problem. We all know they monitor this forum and sometimes post to it. For a struggling company to risk their own survival by not addressing issues is not too smart. I want TIVO to survive because I have been using a DirecTIVO for 7 years and I would surely miss their product if they went out of business.

bicker
07-08-2007, 05:32 AM
I doubt they see this one, very poorly titled thread, to represent a risk to the company's survival.