Pixelation - what would you consider acceptable?

[mvnuenen]

Though the topic of pixelation has been addressed in many threads here, I am interested in what could be considered "normal". I have my S3 for two weeks and have noticed pixelation in all my HD recordings (80% of these come from Discovery theater). It happens about every 5-10 minutes. Although I am not so troubled by the skipping image, what I do find annoying is the skipping of sound (for about .5 - 1 sec.). As I have cable from TWC and SDV remains on my mind, I am still in doubt about returning the unit. So, back to my question: would you consider pixelation every 5-10 min. normal?

(ps. I have a home cable amplifyer and signal strength of 97. I have optical out directly to my receiver, and HDMI to my TV. I use the HDMI cable that came with the Tivo. I also have a Tripp-Lite HDMI cable that I haven't tried yet. Perhaps this will help...)

[Ilene]

I have Verizon Fios and we have our share of threads on this issue along with a lot of recommendations. Often overlooked is the actual wall cable coming into the TiVo. Most are using the "cheap" cable provided by the cable company and most of us have never checked how tightly this cable is attached at both ends. That said, I have been over at a friend's house watching his non-TiVo TV and he gets pixelation too.
I haven't seen anyone post that has 2 identical TVs in the same house with one connected to S3 and the other connected via the cable companies DVR and all connections the same. My guess here would be that you would still see pixelation, but it would be worse on an S3 which has to have the ability to tune to many cable company inputs versus the cable companies 1 version that has been fine tuned to respond to one signal. The other variable that we have here is the cableCard. A relatively new technology, not really supported - more like tolerated - by cable companies. With the low number of users (mostly us S3 owners), cable companies are not going to spend their time or real dollars on perfecting.

[hdhdliving]

Very interesting thread. Indeed it seems to me that the accepting of pixelation threshold is very low in this forum.

When I had the cable company DVR I had pixelation, sound drop offs all the time. I mean constantly, worst when I watched a recorded program. Very rarely did I watch something without pixelation unless it was a live event, and even then that was rare. So I thought pixelation, drop offs were just an accepted form of watching HD. :o

Then when I got the S3 the first thing I noticed was that almost all pixelation and drop outs had stopped. I think I went weeks before I finally saw one. Really.

Now I see them a bit more often sometimes maybe 3 or 4 times on a 1 hour hd show. But that is pretty rare when that happens. Certain channels I get like HDnet and MOJO also seem to have more pixelation then others. But all in all I consider this in an "acceptable" range.

[AbMagFab]

You should accept virtually no pixellation. If you have some, it's a signal issue.

The poster above is right that cables and connectors, as well as any splitters, are the first thing to check.

Your amp, if it's a generic radio shack type amp, is probably useless. You should get a quality amp that also cleans the signal.

[hdhdliving]

You should accept virtually no pixellation. If you have some, it's a signal issue.

The poster above is right that cables and connectors, as well as any splitters, are the first thing to check.

Your amp, if it's a generic radio shack type amp, is probably useless. You should get a quality amp that also cleans the signal.

I don't know if you're directing that post at me but let me say that my amplifier is one that TW gave me. All my signals have been checked at every port. I do not have insufficient signal anywhere.

I don't understand how you can say any pixelation is unacceptable. Weather, good or bad can cause interference and lord knows what happens when it gets to the cable company. I've seen several incidents where people have complained all across the country about pixelation and sound drop offs in the AVS forum. If it happens to many, that's a bad signal being sent out and what goes out bad comes in bad. (Garbage in, Garbage out).

[mvnuenen]

I also have the amplifyer TWC left me. Even the splitter to keep a live feed to my TV cablecard was given by TWC as it is supposedly a better one (-4.0 + 4.0) than the original I had (-3.5 +3.5). I do run my cable through a surge protector. I am not sure if this all contributes to pixelation. I do not see it on the analog channel recording, only the HD ones. But, my question was really to see what the benchmark is. I can live with *some* pixelation but obviously I don't want to keep a Tivo lemon. So, would you consider audio dropout every 5-10 min. normal? Thanks for your responses.

[HaloBox]

It's rare for me to see pixelation or tiling at my home and I'm basing that on about 18 months of experience. Our signal from Charter was good. FIOS TV appears to be better and we have more channels.

I expect the experience with the Tivo S3 and CableCards to be just as good, otherwise I'll return everything.

There's no sense in paying top dollar for a half ass implementation of something.

[SCSIRAID]

You should accept virtually no pixellation. If you have some, it's a signal issue.

The poster above is right that cables and connectors, as well as any splitters, are the first thing to check.

Your amp, if it's a generic radio shack type amp, is probably useless. You should get a quality amp that also cleans the signal.

In general, I agree. Cable sources should exhibit virtually no pixelation. Cable is a very 'closed' environment and should be nearly immune to external interference. OTA is a bit of a different story but still pixelation should be rare.

I agree.. Radio Shack amps are terrible. Look for sources such as Viewsonics or PCT. Avoid splitters. Passing cable thru cheap surge protectors could also cause issues. Use RG6 Quad Shield... not the cheap stuff.

As to saying its a signal issue... I would agree IF you know you have a good tuner.... If the tuner sucks... good signal may not be enough.

[SCSIRAID]

So, would you consider audio dropout every 5-10 min. normal? Thanks for your responses.

Absolutely Not. I wouldnt consider once every 5-10 hours acceptable on a cable source.

[BruceShultes]

Try removing the cable company amp. You can have just as many problems with too strong a signal as with too weak a signal.

You can easily put it back if things get worse.

If you are having your problems on any of the big three networks, I get occasional pixelation OTA.

[MickeS]

I had horrible pixelation on my SA8300HD - at least on weekend afternoons, for some reason.

It was mostly fixed by a signal amplifier. Now I don't even use HD from cable anymore, only OTA into my Series 3. I have no pixelation whatsoever now (on the channels I receive - the local WB is not coming in at all :)). But I would consider some pixelation acceptable. It's hard to get a perfect signal on all channels at all times.

[bareyb]

I just installed a 10 dB amp and it made my "searching for signal" woes WORSE, I couldn't get HBOHD or DHD at all with it on. The minute I removed it they came back and seem to be working again for now. So too strong a signal could definitely be a problem. I also removed a Ground Breaker that I had originally NEEDED and now (for some reason) I don't. I think because the Cable guys on one of their many trips out here added a ground block outside that probably does essentially the same thing.

As far as the original question? Some amount of Pixilation is acceptable to me, once or twice an hour wouldn't piss me off too bad, but the audio dropouts are a pain in the rear. Makes it difficult to follow the show, is far more intrusive, and makes me want to toss a shoe at the S3 (although I usually curse at Comcast during these times). :D

I'd be fine if Tivo could find a fix for the Audio droputs. As it is, my main problem is not JUST pixelation but the fact that my S3 often gives me a "searching for signal" message on HBOHD and DHD. Those channels pixelate so badly when they DO work, that the TiVo usually gives up trying to record on them and simply leaves me with a partial recording. If I could find a fix for those couple of issues, I'd be back in Tivo heaven instead of where I currently reside. If anyone has any advice for me I'm all ears. :o

[richsadams]

I do run my cable through a surge protector. I am not sure if this all contributes to pixelation. We used to run our cable connection through a decent Monster brand surge protector. We were having signal issues on our DT S2. As soon as we took the surge protector out of the loop the signal issue went away. We still use surge protectors for all of our components power connections, but not the cable.

We see periodic pixelization and audio dropouts on our S3, perhaps once or twice in a 24 to 48 hour period, but only for a split-second at a time and almost always on an HD program. Understanding that there will be signal problems no matter what, we find that acceptable.

[richsadams]

I'd be fine if Tivo could find a fix for the Audio droputs. As it is, my main problem is not JUST pixelation but the fact that my S3 often gives me a "searching for signal" message on HBOHD and DHD. Those channels pixelate so badly when they DO work, that the TiVo usually gives up trying to record on them and simply leaves me with a partial recording. If I could find a fix for those couple of issues, I'd be back in Tivo heaven instead of where I currently reside. If anyone has any advice for me I'm all ears. :o If you're having problems with particular channels I'd terrorize Comcast. We've had the same sort of issues with specific stations and it turned out it was indeed a signal problem...outside of our house at an exchange box down the street. They denied it twice but the third time they rolled a truck the guy knew exactly what to do. A half hour later and ta-da! No more problems. Sometimes you have to keep hammering them until they get it right.

Try not to blame TiVo...it's doing the best it can with what it has to work with. :)

[bareyb]

If you're having problems with particular channels I'd terrorize Comcast. We've had the same sort of issues with specific stations and it turned out it was indeed a signal problem...outside of our house at an exchange box down the street. They denied it twice but the third time they rolled a truck the guy knew exactly what to do. A half hour later and ta-da! No more problems. Sometimes you have to keep hammering them until they get it right.

Try not to blame TiVo...it's doing the best it can with what it has to work with. :)
I too tend to think it's Comcasts fault simply by the fact that one week the S3 is perfect, and the next it's missing channels and pixelating all over the place. So yeah, I do think it's mostly Comcasts fault. However. The same signal does work on the Comcast DVR in SOME cases so the S3 Cablecard/Copy Protection scheme is probably to blame in those situations. I hope TiVo is doing the best they can because I'm in love with the product and always have been. It's the first time I've ever had a negative thing to say about any TiVo product I've ever owned and I've owned them all. I paid three years in advance because I have that much faith in the company. I know they will get it fixed eventually. They always do.

So having said all that, I still think if Comcast could get me a more consistent signal, the whole thing would probably work fine as it does at times now. Pretty frustrating dealing with the Cable co. mainly because I know they are gonna want to start trying new cable cards, and I know the cable cards are fine. It took me 8 to get four that work. I'm afraid to have them mess with it. They don't seem to want to admit there's a signal problem and truth be told, there doesn't seem to be. At least not with a meter. The signal level is about +6dB and that's at the high end of optimum as far as I know. :(

[mvnuenen]

Thanks for all the responses. I use a Panamax M5100-EX which I don't consider really a cheap protector. Nevertheless, I will remove the cable from it. I will also see if removing the amplifier will make a difference. Currently my signal is 97. What level should one have in order to consider it *strong*?

Also, as I currently do use the cables provided by TWC (from wall to splitter to TV and S3), which or what type of cables would you recommend? In virtually every review I have read, unless you are running wires over longer distances, A/V cables (like the over-priced Monster) usually don't matter a great deal (to non-audiophiles like me). I do not remember though having read anything ever regarding coaxial cables.

[SCSIRAID]

Thanks for all the responses. I use a Panamax M5100-EX which I don't consider really a cheap protector. Nevertheless, I will remove the cable from it. I will also see if removing the amplifier will make a difference. Currently my signal is 97. What level should one have in order to consider it *strong*?

Also, as I currently do use the cables provided by TWC (from wall to splitter to TV and S3), which or what type of cables would you recommend? In virtually every review I have read, unless you are running wires over longer distances, A/V cables (like the over-priced Monster) usually don't matter a great deal (to non-audiophiles like me). I do not remember though having read anything ever regarding coaxial cables.

I also use Panamax protection with both cable and OTA running thru it. Eliminating the Panamax and running the cable straight to the S3 makes no difference for me (and my dropout/pixelation issues). YMMV

[mvnuenen]

So, SCSIRAID, since you have a good grip on the cables/splitters/amplifier you use, you believe it has to do with the hardware (S3) itself?

I also have a cablecard TV. In the last 18 months I used it, I do not remember having experienced ever any audio dropouts. Even today, when I watch live TV through it I do not see pixelation or audio issues.

I will follow up on all the suggestions made. Let's hope it is not the Tivo who is failing me.

[SCSIRAID]

So, SCSIRAID, since you have a good grip on the cables/splitters/amplifier you use, you believe it has to do with the hardware (S3) itself?

I also have a cablecard TV. In the last 18 months I used it, I do not remember having experienced ever any audio dropouts. Even today, when I watch live TV through it I do not see pixelation or audio issues.

I will follow up on all the suggestions made. Let's hope it is not the Tivo who is failing me.

I can only render my opinion but I believe it to be based on reasonable data. Its also based solely on what I am experiencing which may or may not be the same as what you are having trouble with.... My issue is with dropout/pixelation on QAM cable sources only. I believe the issue is twofold... a combination of a 'marginal' Tivo QAM tuner/demodulator design and a cable signal with characteristics which aggrevate that 'marginal' tuner/demodulator design. This leaves a quandry... From the Tivo perspective - clean up the signal and all is well but from the cableco perspective - The signal IS clean, nobody else has trouble with it , fix your crappy tuner. Sucks to be stuck in the middle.

If you are considering an amp, a couple things to remember... 1) Dont buy junk (get Viewsonics or PTC) 2) The amp has to be put in the right place which is right at the entry to the house. Amps dont 'clean' anything... they actually add noise and should be placed where the signal is at its 'best' so it can be split without killing it.

Note that a significant audio dropout periods could be the fault of your HT Receiver (assuming that is what you are using to listen to). I also have audio dropouts that accompany the events.... BUT... if you use the analog output of the Tivo instead of the digital output, you may find as I did that the audio drops are very short duration and are not very objectionable. Setting the Tivo to PCM also makes the dropouts shorter (but leaves you with bass management issues). I attribute this to a faster recovery time of the receiver to loss of 'digital signal lock'.

For OTA, my pixelation events are rare and are likely due to multipath issues and the fact that my antenna is in the attic. They also tend to occur during 'weather' such as rain or wind which tends to validate the multipath source assumption. My OTA situation is perfectly acceptable in my opinion.

[gwsat]

Absolutely Not. I wouldnt consider once every 5-10 hours acceptable on a cable source.
Then how do you deal with the audio dropouts and video stutters that occur during layer changes on virtually every DVD? I can live with that, just as I can live with occasional sound dropouts and pixelization on TV shows, if they are rare enough not to interfere with my understanding of the story being told. Obviously every 5 or 10 minutes is way too frequent but, to me at least, one dropout every 5 to 10 hours is not.

[SCSIRAID]

Then how do you deal with the audio dropouts and video stutters that occur during layer changes on virtually every DVD? I can live with that, just as I can live with occasional sound dropouts and pixelization on TV shows, if they are rare enough not to interfere with my understanding of the story being told. Obviously every 5 or 10 minutes is way too frequent but, to me at least, one dropout every 5 to 10 hours is not.

I take that position because its acceptance of the symptom of a problem. Tolerance is a personal choice :D Perhaps my tolerance is low right now since I currently fall in the once every 5-10 minute category and my patience/acceptance is running a bit thin :)

Also... Layer change behavior depends totally on the DVD player and how deep its buffers are. Players such as a Denon 2900/3910 dont exhibit layer change dropouts. The players I have seen that do exhibit visable layer change behavior result in a short pause instead of a breakup and loss of content.

[Revolutionary]

I tune cable channels QAM, not using cablecard. The coax from the wall hits an RCA amplified 4x1 splitter (1 each to cable modem, Tivo, and the 2 tuners in my BeyondTV box). I never get pixelation or audio drop outs on QAM recordings. Or if I have, they have been so infrequent that I can't remember ever having one.

Now, my OTA reception on the other hand... but that's a function of my location and my restriction to an (unseen, per The Boss) indoor antenna, not of the Tivo.

[CosmoGeek]

I used to get the dropouts on several channels and it was a big issue for me. However, things have improved for me over time. I think that the TiVo software upgrades have improved things (YMMV). I've also eliminated splitters and had Comcast replace a lot of connectors and cable. Of the channels I watch, I only recall seeing dropouts recently on MOJO HD. On MOJO it can be so bad (every couple of minutes sometimes) that the show is unwatchable.

So I have gone from very upset about the dropouts on many channels to accepting the dropouts on one channel.

[mike_camden]

MojoHD suffers from dropouts in our area with the Comcast DVR also (Moto DCT 641x), so I think that may be more of a channel/Comcast problem than a Tivo one.

[mvnuenen]

In my case it also seems to be more of a channel issue. After some more viewing I realized I only experience the dropouts with Discovery Theater (channel 280 in my area). Other HD channels have recorded excellently. Interestingly, only the Discovery showed 100 signal strength, while all others showed 97??! As BruceSchultes mentioned, perhaps the signal is too strong. I haven't removed my amp yet but will do so this weekend.

[bareyb]

I had a TON of audio dropouts last night on "So you think you can dance?" on Fox. Made it almost unwatchable. One solution for locals with dropouts might be for folks to give up having HD and simply record the local channels in SD. Sad to have to do it, but at least it's work around until somebody fixes this mess. :(

[richsadams]

I had a TON of audio dropouts last night on "So you think you can dance?" on Fox. Made it almost unwatchable. One solution for locals with dropouts might be for folks to give up having HD and simply record the local channels in SD. Sad to have to do it, but at least it's work around until somebody fixes this mess. :( We didn't watch that program, but we did notice a higher amount of audio/video "glitches" on programs recorded in the last 24 hours or so well. Maybe it's sun spots. :rolleyes:

[droidicus]

I am having severe pixelation problems as well, in my case I am having problems with both SD (both analog and digital) and HD channels. When I go to the signal strength meter all of my digital stations are between 95 and 100, so I don't think that is the problem.

At this point I really think that the problem is with the TiVo, I noticed the other day while watching an analog SD program that several times the pixelation extended beyond the edge of the video and into the black bars on either side of the picture. Since it was a analog SD program, and the TiVo itself is adding the black bars, it seems like there should be no way that this is a problem with the cable signal itself.

I am considering contacting TiVo for a replacement unit, but I just got my CableCards installed, and don't really want to go through the hassle again :-(

~Droid

[mvnuenen]

I also happened to record "so you think you can dance" from Fox in HD. It was 100% perfect. No dropouts whatsoever. Of the 5 HD channels I have recorded from I only get drop outs on Discovery Theater. I am convinced it is a channel/signal issue, or a channel/signal/TiVo issue at best. In my case I do not think the TiVo is solely at fault, if at all. I still need to remove my amp and see if that will eliminate the drop outs on Discovery channel. Will post results later.

[sknesek]

I have had horrible pixelation issues. I had comcast come out and checked my signal strength, he said it was fine. He disconnected TIVo, hooked up his own digitial box and NO pixelation. It was hard to blame Comcast after that. it only happens on my HD channels, and NBC is the worst. The today show in the morning NEVER works - I have to switch to non HD to watch. NBC at night - even worse. Haven't had a good recording of Studio 60 in weeks -
I don't know who to blame anymore. It's driving me crazy! TIVO/Comcast - which is it? It was spotless when he was bypassing TIVO. Plugged TIVO back in and bang, it was back. He walked away proud.

[bareyb]

That sucks... I think the S3 is somewhat picky about the incoming signal. Mine has been "fine" since I pulled a "Ground Loop Isolator" out of the signal path. I have no idea if that was what fixed it or if I'm simply in another good stretch of Comcast viewing.

My S3 worked fine for months and then SEEMED to go south after the 8.3 update and then all of a sudden, a few weeks later, I mess with the cables and remove a ground loop breaker and voila! It's all but perfect. So who knows?

My guess is that the problem is with the Comcast signal. It works on THEIR box because their box is less susceptible to bad signal input. The S3 seems to need a fairly pristine signal to work the way it should. Add to that the Cable Card factor and it makes for a complicated system to troubleshoot. Mine SEEMS to be okay now. Check all your connectors and remove any unnecessary splitters and replace any fittings with new ones if they seem at all suspect. If you have any amps or ground breakers in the loop get rid of those and see if that helps. FWIW I added a 10dB Amp to my sytem and it made it WORSE. I couldn't get HBOHD or DSCHD at all with the Amp. I removed it and they came back.

I'll keep you guys posted as to whether my problems return. As you all know, I don't suffer silently... But props where they are due. My S3 and Comcast are making me happy again. :)

[richsadams]

I have had horrible pixelation issues. I had comcast come out and checked my signal strength, he said it was fine. He disconnected TIVo, hooked up his own digitial box and NO pixelation. It was hard to blame Comcast after that. it only happens on my HD channels, and NBC is the worst. The today show in the morning NEVER works - I have to switch to non HD to watch. NBC at night - even worse. Haven't had a good recording of Studio 60 in weeks -
I don't know who to blame anymore. It's driving me crazy! TIVO/Comcast - which is it? It was spotless when he was bypassing TIVO. Plugged TIVO back in and bang, it was back. He walked away proud. Did the Comcast tech test or replace your cable cards? We had to have them "roll a truck" three times before a tech arrived that knew what he was doing. Just because their box worked doesn't mean their other equipment (cable cards) are good. If everything checks out I'd get on the horn with TiVo and have them rectify the situation.

Best of luck and keep us posted!

[richsadams]

That sucks... I think the S3 is somewhat picky about the incoming signal. Mine has been "fine" since I pulled a "Ground Loop Isolator" out of the signal path. I have no idea if that was what fixed it or if I'm simply in another good stretch of Comcast viewing.

My S3 worked fine for months and then SEEMED to go south after the 8.3 update and then all of a sudden, a few weeks later, I mess with the cables and remove a ground loop breaker and voila! It's all but perfect. So who knows?

My guess is that the problem is with the Comcast signal. It works on THEIR box because their box is less susceptible to bad signal input. The S3 seems to need a fairly pristine signal to work the way it should. Add to that the Cable Card factor and it makes for a complicated system to troubleshoot. Mine SEEMS to be okay now. Check all your connectors and remove any unnecessary splitters and replace any fittings with new ones if they seem at all suspect. If you have any amps or ground breakers in the loop get rid of those and see if that helps. FWIW I added and Amp to my sytems and it made it WORSE. I couldn't get HBOHD or DSCHD at all with the Amp. I removed it and they came back.

I'll keep you guys posted as to whether my problems return. As you all know, I don't suffer silently... But props where they are due. My S3 and Comcast are making me happy again. :) Excellent feedback. Much appreciated! :up:

[m_jonis]

Though the topic of pixelation has been addressed in many threads here, I am interested in what could be considered "normal". I have my S3 for two weeks and have noticed pixelation in all my HD recordings (80% of these come from Discovery theater). It happens about every 5-10 minutes. Although I am not so troubled by the skipping image, what I do find annoying is the skipping of sound (for about .5 - 1 sec.). As I have cable from TWC and SDV remains on my mind, I am still in doubt about returning the unit. So, back to my question: would you consider pixelation every 5-10 min. normal?

(ps. I have a home cable amplifyer and signal strength of 97. I have optical out directly to my receiver, and HDMI to my TV. I use the HDMI cable that came with the Tivo. I also have a Tripp-Lite HDMI cable that I haven't tried yet. Perhaps this will help...)


Given that neither my S2 DT nor my MthTV box (HD via QAM) have pixelation (unless there's an actual problem with the feed from TW Cable like during a severe thunderstorm), I'd say, no amount of pixelation is acceptable.