The zoom modes are confusing

[MickeS]

So I'm trying to figure out how the heck the zoom function actually works on the S3.
TV (42" Westinghouse LCD 1080p) only has 2 aspect ratio modes, "Standard" and "Fill".
I used the Widescreen setting on the TiVo.

I just can't figure out what it actually does and when. I looked at http://customersupport.tivo.com/LaunchContent.aspx?CID=58A716C8-5526-4426-B48C-A90F00F3F2AC but I'm still confused. For example, from the page linked above:
"Panel mode adds letterbox bars or side bars to the picture as necessary to fill the screen, preserving the program’s original aspect ratio. This mode is useful if you are watching a program that is broadcast in 4:3 on a 16:9 TV, or vice-versa. If the program already includes letterbox bars, or side bars, these will still appear in Panel mode.
"
Huh? On my 16:9 screen, if a show is broadcast in 4:3, why the hell would I want to ADD any bars anywhere? Is there something I'm not understanding there?

More... watching US Open golf right now on NBC (OTA). 1920*1080i, over HDMI.

The zoom modes change nothing. "Full", "Panel" and "Zoom" all give exactly the same result, no matter what the TV is set to.

For widescreen, it doesn't matter. But when a 4:3 show is broadcast in HD, this is pretty annoying, as the TiVo zoom makes no difference - if I want to zoom in a letterboxed 4:3 image broadcast in HD, it would be nice if it actually DID zoom in so I'd get rid of the black bars on all 4 sides.

I've tried with different material, and sometimes it zooms, and sometimes it doesn't. I can't seem to figure out what the rules are exactly. And why in the WORLD does it not just simply zoom EVERYTHING the same way? Nothing on the page linked to above says anything about enabling or disabling zoom modes based on the resolution of the source material.

I need some help. :)

[yunlin12]

Yes the zoom mode does not work in HD.

The zoom feature only works on SD channels. I have the Westinhouse 42" LCD also with S3 on the HDMI input. What aspect ratio mode (Full/Panel/Zoom) depend on your output format (1080 fixed, 1080 hybrid, or native)

I don't think you can use native since the Westinghouse 42" LCD do not accpet 480i over HDMI.

If you use 1080i fixed (I do), and set it to panel. This adds two bar on the left and right of a 4:3 SD channel, and gives you the right aspect ration on 4:3. If you use Full instead of panel, the 4:3 picture is stretched out to fill the whole 16:9 screen, which I don't like. When the 4:3 material also has letterbox on top/bottom, the Zoom mode zooms in nicely, and gets rid of the letterbox while also removing the need to have panels on left/right. I use it for Unbox movies and Scifi Stargate shows.

If you use 1080i hybrid, then on SD channels the Full mode would give you the right aspect ratio, but the Panel mode would actually squeeze the picture horizontally. In case the 4:3 SD material also has letter box, the Zoom mode now does not do a good job, it gets rid of the letterbox on top and bottom, but is still "squeezed" horizontally. To correct this "squeeze" for Panel and Zoom mode, you need to put the Westinghouse TV into Fill mode. When the TV detects that it's getting a SD input (480p), it stretches the picture horizontally in the Fill mode, and corrects the "squeezed" picture.

[MickeS]

Thanks for your explanation, it has made things a lot clearer :).

Yes the zoom mode does not work in HD.

OK. My next question then would be (not to you, but to TiVo): why not? I can see why there isn't generally a NEED to get it working, since 16:9 material in HD tends to fill the screen, and not be 4:3 letterboxed, but still... I don't understand why they specifically disabled it. And since they DID, there should be some kind of confirmation that it doesn't work when in HD, I think.


The zoom feature only works on SD channels. I have the Westinhouse 42" LCD also with S3 on the HDMI input. What aspect ratio mode (Full/Panel/Zoom) depend on your output format (1080 fixed, 1080 hybrid, or native)

I don't think you can use native since the Westinghouse 42" LCD do not accpet 480i over HDMI.

I use native - with HDMI. 480i works fine. I have firmware version 1.0 on the TV.


If you use 1080i fixed (I do), and set it to panel. This adds two bar on the left and right of a 4:3 SD channel, and gives you the right aspect ration on 4:3. If you use Full instead of panel, the 4:3 picture is stretched out to fill the whole 16:9 screen, which I don't like. When the 4:3 material also has letterbox on top/bottom, the Zoom mode zooms in nicely, and gets rid of the letterbox while also removing the need to have panels on left/right. I use it for Unbox movies and Scifi Stargate shows.

If you use 1080i hybrid, then on SD channels the Full mode would give you the right aspect ratio, but the Panel mode would actually squeeze the picture horizontally. In case the 4:3 SD material also has letter box, the Zoom mode now does not do a good job, it gets rid of the letterbox on top and bottom, but is still "squeezed" horizontally. To correct this "squeeze" for Panel and Zoom mode, you need to put the Westinghouse TV into Fill mode. When the TV detects that it's getting a SD input (480p), it stretches the picture horizontally in the Fill mode, and corrects the "squeezed" picture.

Since I use "Standard", in order to get rid of overscan, it will never fill the entire 16:9 area if the input source is 4:3. Thus, the zoom mode is only useful if I have the TV set to "Fill" (like you point out).

Now, here's what annoys me:
Since the TV is set to "Standard", meaning that it just shows whatever is input, and I have set the TiVo's "TV Aspect Ratio" setting to "Widescreen", and since there is a zoom function on the TiVo that's called "panel" - WHY does the TiVo output a SD 4:3 source as 4:3 - shouldn't it output it as stretched 16:9??

Doesn't that seem like what it SHOULD do? I'm pretty sure (though can not confirm this) that this is how the SA8300HD handled it.

If the TiVo did it this way, it wouldn't matter what the setting on the TV was - I could always use the "Panel" mode on the TiVo to get a 4:3 picture - the way the "Panel" mode is intended to work (creating a 16:9 picture with a 4:3 image area inside 2 black bars on the side).

TiVo bug, or am I missing something?

EDIT: ha! I just realized that if I change the output format from "Native" to "1080i fixed", then it behaves like I want it to behave. :) I guess that makes sense. :)

EDIT 2: ha again! I realized too that this also fixed the issue I had with the zoom for letterboxed 4:3. When the TV was in "Fill" mode, it overscanned, so zooming in on a letterboxed 4:3 cut off some of the image area. With the output at 1080i fixed, and the TV in "standard" mode it has no overscan, so the zoom is now perfect - NO image information is being cropped at all. Woohoo. :)
As a nice bonus, the 1080i fixed output looks much better than 480i. Apparently the upconversion in the TiVo is a lot better than in the TV.

I still say TiVo should have two zoom levels though - one taking overscan into account, and one that doesn't. Most TVs have overscan (mine has it, except for on the HDMI input), and will thus never be zoomed correctly on the TiVo, as far as I can tell.

[Arcady]

WHY does the TiVo output a SD 4:3 source as 4:3 - shouldn't it output it as stretched 16:9??

Because stretching video is wrong? Who wants to watch a bunch of fat midgets on their TV?

[oldnacl]

In setting the output from the TiVo, does anyone have an opinion regarding the quality of scaling done by the TiVo compared to having the TV do the scaling? In general, (I have a Sony LCD projection set) I use Native outoput and let the Sony do the scaling but that does lead to zoom confusion as mentioned in the subject of this thread. If I output everything to the Sony @ 1080i, then I'm scaling twice (in some cases anyway - depending on what's being broadcast) first by the Tivo and then again by the Sony.
My experience with an older progressive scan DVD player connected to the Sony was that the PQ was much better when I set the DVD player to output 480i (native for DVDs) and let the Sony upscale to the display (768) resolution of the TV.

[aaronwt]

Yes the zoom mode does not work in HD.



The zoom mode is just the opposite if using a 4:3 set and you have the aspect ratio set to 4:3. It will zoom the HD but not the SD. It all depends on what you have the aspect ratio for the TV set to in the TiVo settings.