Series 3 - Poor picture quality on DLP??

[JDSmooth]

I just recently took advantage of amazon and the rebate offer to finally get rid of the SA 8300HD and get my TiVo interface back.

After replacing the SA DVR and hooking up the TiVo I noticed a fairly substantial decline in overall PQ. Even HD broadcasts have more "noise" in the images, particularly in the backgrounds. SD images are even worse, with very grainy images. I have Bright House Cable, and 2 CableCards were installed with no issues. My setup is as follows:

TiVo series 3 hooked up via component to my Samsung HLN-567W DLP set.
Resolution set to 720p fixed (this is the Samsungs native resolution)
I tried all the other resolution options, and this seemed best
Aspect set to smart screen
I tried HDMI, but the older Samsung is not HDCP compliant, so I had issues - when it worked it did not appear any better
Even the TiVo menus appear noisy in the background

I just don't know if this is an issue with my TV being about 4 years old or not, but the SA box seemed to output a cleaner signal. I did not have any huge issues before installing the new TiVo. (SD was never great on the Samsung DLP, but definitely was better than it is now) I am not a TiVo newbie, but I fear I am missing something or I got a bad box.

Thanks in advance for any ideas.

[legendarybc]

Was the SA DVR hooked up on the same TV video input as the S3 is now?

[MickeS]

I don't know the answer to your question, but why are you using "smart screen" mode instead of wide screen?

[Gregor]

Older DLP sets have a lot of trouble with standard definition signals.

You might try a better set of cables, and if you have the option of recording SD at different qualities, try "Best".

[JDSmooth]

Yes - the SA DVR was hooked up with the same cables (decent quality) to the same input (component 3).

I know about the limitations of DLP with SD, but it really never looked this bad.

I HAVE NOT reset the recording quality setting (which was a complete oversight). What is it set at out of the box? Does this setting affect HD? Does it affet the menus?

Could I have a bad box?

Thanks for the really quick replies!

[JDSmooth]

Why would I not use smart screen? My wife hates when 4:3 images are stretched to 16:9.

Should I not use that setting?

What about video smoothing? I do not see any difference with or without it.

[Gregor]

Yes - the SA DVR was hooked up with the same cables (decent quality) to the same input (component 3).

I know about the limitations of DLP with SD, but it really never looked this bad.

I HAVE NOT reset the recording quality setting (which was a complete oversight). What is it set at out of the box? Does this setting affect HD? Does it affet the menus?

Could I have a bad box?

Thanks for the really quick replies!

Don't know what the recording quality is set at. Some systems will remap the analog channels to a digital channel, and you won't see the option when setting up recordings.

HD channels are digital and there is no quality setting.

Menus are are not affected by the quality settings.

Personally I hate 4:3 tv stretched to 16:9, you might experiment a bit to see what the best picture is.

[cgould]

I have 4+yr old HD RP-CRT w/ component, and in comparison to both the Comcast 6412 motorola HD PVR box and the SVideo output from my Sony S1 Tivo, the S3 significantly outshines both in picture quality. No contest.
Analog&digital SD video looks VERY good (much better than 6412's), and analog SD is much better than the S1 Svideo output. (I have 1080i hybrid setting and the 480p upconversion and 720 conversion is VERY good.)

HD of course is not much different vs the 6412, but looks very good; occasionally I get some faint diagonal lines across backgrounds but that's my cheap cabling/connection (a wiggle and they go away, I had it on 6412 also.)


If you are getting noise/problems even on Tivo screens, not video signals, sounds like something is wrong in cabling or connections or interference.
Digital and HD channels should not get any noise/intereference from the tuner since they're digital, eg perfect picture if you get any picture, so it doesn't sound like a signal quality issue.

Maybe you have some interference or noise? eg a ground loop from using different plugs/outlet? try swapping things around or note what changes you made vs the previous box.
You can also try the svideo output from the S3, see if it's maybe something in the box itself and exchange it.

[Mach1_8]

I just recently took advantage of amazon and the rebate offer to finally get rid of the SA 8300HD and get my TiVo interface back.

After replacing the SA DVR and hooking up the TiVo I noticed a fairly substantial decline in overall PQ. Even HD broadcasts have more "noise" in the images, particularly in the backgrounds. SD images are even worse, with very grainy images. I have Bright House Cable, and 2 CableCards were installed with no issues. My setup is as follows:

TiVo series 3 hooked up via component to my Samsung HLN-567W DLP set.
Resolution set to 720p fixed (this is the Samsungs native resolution)
I tried all the other resolution options, and this seemed best
Aspect set to smart screen
I tried HDMI, but the older Samsung is not HDCP compliant, so I had issues - when it worked it did not appear any better
Even the TiVo menus appear noisy in the background

I just don't know if this is an issue with my TV being about 4 years old or not, but the SA box seemed to output a cleaner signal. I did not have any huge issues before installing the new TiVo. (SD was never great on the Samsung DLP, but definitely was better than it is now) I am not a TiVo newbie, but I fear I am missing something or I got a bad box.

Thanks in advance for any ideas.
Did you try going to "native" on your output resolution? My understanding of that setting is it passes along the signal in whatever resolution it was recorded in and lets your TV do the scaling. Maybe worth a shot.

[JDSmooth]

Thank you again for the quick replies.

I am away from the TiVo right now, but at least I have a plan of action.

I am going to check the ground loop possibilities - right now both the TV and the S3 are plugged into a Belkin UPS. I believe the SA 8300HD was plugged into an outlet on a standard plug strip. (thats the only real difference I can think of)

I will also play with the cables, but I already tried the S Video output and that was no better.

Lastly, if none of this has any effect I will move the TiVo to the 42" Sharp LCD in the bedroom to see of it is a TV issue.

If all of this fails, it will be back to TiVo for this box!!

Please let me know if you guys have any other ideas. For reference the TV I am having issues with is a Samsung HLN-567W.

Thanks.

[MickeS]

Why would I not use smart screen? My wife hates when 4:3 images are stretched to 16:9.

Should I not use that setting?

The smart screen setting, as far as I can tell, is for 4:3 TVs that have a 16:9 mode, so that's why I was wondering why you use it on a 16:9 TV.

[jlib]

The smart screen setting, as far as I can tell, is for 4:3 TVs that have a 16:9 mode, so that's why I was wondering why you use it on a 16:9 TV.Correct. It is also for people with 16:9 screens who can't stand 4:3 stretched to 16:9.

[gwsat]

I just recently took advantage of amazon and the rebate offer to finally get rid of the SA 8300HD and get my TiVo interface back.

After replacing the SA DVR and hooking up the TiVo I noticed a fairly substantial decline in overall PQ. Even HD broadcasts have more "noise" in the images, particularly in the backgrounds. SD images are even worse, with very grainy images. I have Bright House Cable, and 2 CableCards were installed with no issues. My setup is as follows:

TiVo series 3 hooked up via component to my Samsung HLN-567W DLP set.
Resolution set to 720p fixed (this is the Samsungs native resolution)
I tried all the other resolution options, and this seemed best
Aspect set to smart screen
I tried HDMI, but the older Samsung is not HDCP compliant, so I had issues - when it worked it did not appear any better
Even the TiVo menus appear noisy in the background

I just don't know if this is an issue with my TV being about 4 years old or not, but the SA box seemed to output a cleaner signal. I did not have any huge issues before installing the new TiVo. (SD was never great on the Samsung DLP, but definitely was better than it is now) I am not a TiVo newbie, but I fear I am missing something or I got a bad box.

Thanks in advance for any ideas.
When I got my S3 is January I had to deal with a problem similar to yours. I have an RCA 2003 model 50 inch DLP. It has a DVI input but it is not HDCP compliant, so I have always had to use its component inputs for HD. The PQ on my S3 using component is outstanding, as it was with the SA 8300HD, which the S3 replaced. I have had to use 1080i fixed resolution with both DVRs because, despite having a native resolution of 720p, the RCA’s design is such that it can’t deal with an external 720p signal, so 1080i is required. That’s goofy, I know, but there it is.

I should add that I also have a later model HDTV in another room that has an HDMI input. In the interest of science, I have done many A/B comparisons of the PQ of HDMI versus component with the 8300HD and there was no difference. Thus, I subscribe to what seems to be the conventional wisdom, which is that there is, indeed, no difference in PQ between HDMI and component.

[vman41]

The smart screen setting, as far as I can tell, is for 4:3 TVs that have a 16:9 mode, so that's why I was wondering why you use it on a 16:9 TV.

My 16:9 TV defaults to a 4:3 mode when it gets a 480i signal, so there is as much rationale for using smart screen as the case of an 4:3 CRT with a 16:9 mode. When you use smart screen, the menus aren't stretched.

[bryanb]

Correct. It is also for people with 16:9 screens who can't stand 4:3 stretched to 16:9. It will pillarbox 4:3 in that case.

Is this different from using the Panel mode?

[yunlin12]

I tested the output result of S3 as a function of

output mode (1080i fixed/hybrid)
TV mode (16:9 vs smart WS)
source material content (HD native vs 4:3, 4:3 SD full screen vs letterbox)
aspect mode (Full, Panel, Zoom)

It's a limited set of combinations that I wanted to test because of my own TV which is 1080p LCD, but I think 1080i hybrid/fixed would be similar to 720p hybrid/fixed.

The spreadsheet is here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=9150&stc=1

It's an open office file saved as an Excel, so not too sure about the format.

[aaronwt]

I tested the output result of S3 as a function of

output mode (1080i fixed/hybrid)
TV mode (16:9 vs smart WS)
source material content (HD native vs 4:3, 4:3 SD full screen vs letterbox)
aspect mode (Full, Panel, Zoom)

It's a limited set of combinations that I wanted to test because of my own TV which is 1080p LCD, but I think 1080i hybrid/fixed would be similar to 720p hybrid/fixed.

The spreadsheet is here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=9150&stc=1

It's an open office file saved as an Excel, so not too sure about the format.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[AbMagFab]

You should see picture quality at least as good, usually better, than the older SA and Moto boxes. If you aren't seeing this, you likely have something set up wrong.

Are you sure you have the Tivo video settings to 720p fixed, 1080i fixed, or Native? Try setting to 720p fixed or 1080i fixed to make sure you have things connected properly. Then check what your TV says the incoming signal is. If it's not 1080i or 720p, something is connected wrong.

[jlib]

Correct. [SmartScreen] is also for people with 16:9 screens who can't stand 4:3 stretched to 16:9. Is this different from using the Panel mode? Panel is the appropriate aspect correction mode to use with SmartScreen.

[tgoldtc]

I don't have quite the same setup as the original poster, but am having similar issues with my new S3 that I hooked up last night -- poor PQ compared to my SA8300 (and other sources as well).

Right now my comparisons are just based on SD/analog cable channels (no cable cards yet), but I wouldn't think the cablecards would matter for the analog channels.

Here's my basic setup: S3 connected via component to a Panasonic 1080i HDTV tube-based TV, SA8300 (which I still have, for now) connected via HDMI, and (for testing purposes) a straight feed of the cable signal to the TV as well.

Compared to both the SA8300 and the straight cable feed, the S3 output looks very murky/dirty, especially notable with flesh tones. I have tried various output formats (480i, 480p, 1080i) with no difference. I tried taking the HDMI cable from the SA8300 and using it for the S3, and there was no notable improvement. Also tried swapping the various cable feeds between the equipment -- again no difference.

The SA8300 and the TV produce very similar pictures for the SD analog channels -- I don't know why the S3 is so much worse.

The one thing left I hope to try is to take my S3 over to a friends house and do a comparison against his S3. That should hopefully show me if it's the unit that's bad or if it's just what the output from the S3 look like.

[AbMagFab]

Right now my comparisons are just based on SD/analog cable channels (no cable cards yet), but I wouldn't think the cablecards would matter for the analog channels.
Wow, people really don't seem to pay attention much.

It's been said multiple times that the CC's are required to map the analog channels to digital channels. Just because the channel number is below 100 doesn't mean anything. The cable boxes do this, but you need CC's on the S3 to do it. Otherwise you're not comparing apples to apples. Even with CC's, you need to be sure they are mapped properly (doing a record will tell you).

You say "SD/analog" like they're the same thing. They're not.

[tgoldtc]

Wow, people really don't seem to pay attention much.

It's been said multiple times that the CC's are required to map the analog channels to digital channels. Just because the channel number is below 100 doesn't mean anything. The cable boxes do this, but you need CC's on the S3 to do it. Otherwise you're not comparing apples to apples. Even with CC's, you need to be sure they are mapped properly (doing a record will tell you).

You say "SD/analog" like they're the same thing. They're not.

Sorry for lumping my terms together -- certainly my testing has been strictly with analog channels to this point. I'll admit I"m not entirely familiar with all the issues involved (and will continue to read back through some of the older posts on the board to learn more about it -- thanks for the pointer), but after reading the original post I thought I would throw in my experience from the last day or so as I've been trying to connect my S3 and have also noticed poor PQ.

Note, however, that I also compared the Tivo PQ to that of my TV tuner (which does not use a cable card), and the TV Tuner PQ was much closer to that of the SA8300 than that of the Tivo. Seems like the picture in that case should be similar...?

[JDSmooth]

It sounds like we have similar issues, and with respet to AbMag's rather curt reply, the installation of cable cards did little (if anything) to help the situation. I will be back at home with my TiVo tommorrow and will start playing with my setup to see what I can do. A lot of people have posted some good suggestions.

What does your TiVo menu screen look like? Mine shows the same PQ issues - which means cablecards have nothing to do with it.

I would descibe the main issue as noisy, with a little blurry thrown in.

I'll post when I get to play with the setup.

[tgoldtc]

I don't recall the menu screens looking bad, although I haven't spent much time with it yet. I'll pay more attention to the menus next time to see if I notice any issues (might be a couple of days before I get a chance to look at it again, unfortunately).

My picture does seem blurry/noisy compared to the other sources I was looking at, and in addition to that the color is off quite a bit (as mentioned, flesh tones are particularly bad). Normally I would chalk it up to needing to calibrate my TV, but I've already done that (and every other signal I have coming in to the TV looks fine -- DVD, SA8300 & TV Tuner).

Really hoping I can get this to work as my wife and I both hate the SA8300 interface.

Anyway, like you I'll post again when I get a chance to play with the setup some more.

[cgould]

Sounds like something is wrong, maybe on Tivo video out or cabling side or... some wierd signal incompatibility w/ that particular TV?

My S3 is *significantly* better picture quality (for SD analog and digital) than both my TV (analog/no cards) , Sony SA1 Tivo, and previous Motorola 6412 hd box.
Especially noticeable on SD digital channels vs the Moto box.

I am using 1080i hybrid on a CRT-RP HDTV, so the non-HD stuff is upscaled to 480p. Looks very nice. I do have very good quality analog; digital is a bit clearer/less noise than analog (very faint) and sharper.
HD of course is awesome.

[bryanb]

Panel is the appropriate aspect correction mode to use with SmartScreen.

I'm using Panel mode and not smartscreen. 4x3 is not stretched and 16x9 fills the screen. What would be different if I used smartscreen?

I have the Tivo set to 720p since my TV is 720p and the TiVo scaler seems to do a good job.

[jlib]

I'm using Panel mode and not smartscreen. 4x3 is not stretched and 16x9 fills the screen. What would be different if I used smartscreen?

I have the Tivo set to 720p since my TV is 720p and the TiVo scaler seems to do a good job.Interesting! I use Native Output/Smart Screen/Panel Mode into an 1080P display that is set to not stretch. If I switch to telling the TiVo I have a 16:9 display instead of Smart Screen I get a distinct anamorphic look to 4:3 material. It looks like there are multiple variables that come into play and each user should experiment to get the desired results. In your case, you are never sending 480i to the display so Smart Screen would not be of any value. Thanks for the info.

[MickeS]

IMO... after trying to figure this out myself... this is the easiest way to do it, if you want to only use TiVo to control the zooming.

There is no reason to use "Smart Screen" when you have a widescreen display. Smartscreen is for 4:3 TVs.

If you have a 16:9 screen, set the TV's aspect mode to it's normal mode - where it just takes the picture that comes in and shows it, no matter what aspect ratio it is (4:3 will have black bars, 16:9 will not). Then set the TV aspect ratio setting in the TiVo to "widescreen" (16:9).

Set output mode to fixed 720 or 1080 (whatever your TV accepts).

Now all HD will show on your TV in its correct aspect ratio, and all analog content will be zoomable with the TiVo zoom:

for 4:3 "full screen" content, use "Panel" mode (image aspect ratio preserved with black bars on side) or "Full" mode (image squeezed vertically giving a stretched image with no black bars on the side)

for 4:3 "letterbox content", use "Zoom" mode (no black bars anywhere)

YMMV... :)

[ErsatzTom]

Now all HD will show on your TV in its correct aspect ratio, and all analog content will be zoomable with the TiVo zoom:

for 4:3 "full screen" content, use "Panel" mode (image aspect ratio preserved with black bars on side) or "Full" mode (image squeezed vertically giving a stretched image with no black bars on the side)

for 4:3 "letterbox content", use "Zoom" mode (no black bars anywhere)


My problem with this is that the TiVo "Full" aspect mode does a much worse job, IMO, of stretching the picture than the "4:3 expanded" aspect mode on my Hitachi plasma. I tried setting the output format to native and the aspect mode to Panel thinking that when there is 480i/p content I'd let the set do the stretching, but the TiVo seems to send a 16:9 480i signal (I didn't even know that was possible but that is what my tv is reporting). Since the TiVo uses the whole 16:9 area for the OSD even when sending 480i/p, if I let the tv stretch the image the OSD looks terrible.

I think I could use the "Smart Select" aspect ration and get pretty much what I want except I really don't want the TiVo menus sent in 4:3 and then stretched out to 16:9.

Can anyone think of a way around this? I wish there was some way to tell the TiVo to only use the 4:3 area of the screen for the OSD when viewing 480i/p content.

Thanks!

tom

[jlib]

Don't confuse aspect ratio with resolution. Standard definition widescreen DVDs are 480i 16:9 after all. If you tell the TiVo you have a 16:9 display and also tell it to panel box 4:3 content that is what you get by definition.

It doesn't make much sense that you want your 4:3 content stretched by your display to fill the screen but you do not like the menus themselves to be stretched.

Smart Screen is only of value on a 16:9 display if you use Native Mode (the TiVo does no processing) and is generally used by people who keep 4:3 content as 4:3. There is no problem telling the TiVo to only use the 4:3 area of the screen but your display is just going to stretch it anyway so I can't visualize a workaround. Let us know if you figure out something.

[jlib]

...There is no reason to use "Smart Screen" when you have a widescreen display. Smartscreen is for 4:3 TVs...The one very big reason to use Smart Screen with a 16:9 display is when you have a high-end display or an external video processor whose scaling and de-interlacing capabilities are superior to the TiVo's. In such a case you would not want the TiVo to process the signal in any way (Native Mode). Each user should determine which in their chain of components should do the video processing. It is a simple matter to try it both ways. If one is not obviously better than the other then you can select on the basis of features such as the zoom and other modes you mentioned you like using.

[ErsatzTom]

Don't confuse aspect ratio with resolution. Standard definition widescreen DVDs are 480i 16:9 after all. If you tell the TiVo you have a 16:9 display and also tell it to panel box 4:3 content that is what you get by definition.

It doesn't make much sense that you want your 4:3 content stretched by your display to fill the screen but you do not like the menus themselves to be stretched.


It isn't the stretching itself but rather that they get stretched off the edges of the screen since they extend beyond the edges of the video content.


Smart Screen is only of value on a 16:9 display if you use Native Mode (the TiVo does no processing) and is generally used by people who keep 4:3 content as 4:3. There is no problem telling the TiVo to only use the 4:3 area of the screen but your display is just going to stretch it anyway so I can't visualize a workaround. Let us know if you figure out something.

For me the best solution would be if I could leave it in 16:9 fixed with Panel aspect correction but configure the TiVo so that if the current content is in 4:3 (not counting the pillars), the user interface items that overlay the video not extend beyond the edges of the video. The Guide, Channel Banner, and Status Bar would still be stretched but they would fit on the screen.

Since I'm 99% sure that isn't possible, I'm going to see if I can get my wife to agree to try and get used to Full mode on the TiVo.

t

PS. I changed my mind, the very best solution would be for TiVo to have an Aspect Ratio Correction mode that more closely resembles what my Hitachi does.

[jlib]

Ah, I see. I had not experienced your problem so I did not know it existed. Sorry for my confusion. So, is your Hitachi "4:3 Expanded Mode" sort of a compromise between horizontal stretch and zooming?

Edit: It is described as "smooth wide" in Home Theater Mag which others might call proportional stretch (center of screen has minimal stretch, edges have more).

[ErsatzTom]

I honestly don't know what the difference is between the two algorithms (Full on TiVo and 4:3 Expanded on TV) but paused the same scene on my Series on on one input and the HD on another input and the tv expanded image looked much better to our eyes. OTOH, maybe it is just a matter of what we're used to.

t

[MickeS]

The one very big reason to use Smart Screen with a 16:9 display is when you have a high-end display or an external video processor whose scaling and de-interlacing capabilities are superior to the TiVo's. In such a case you would not want the TiVo to process the signal in any way (Native Mode). Each user should determine which in their chain of components should do the video processing. It is a simple matter to try it both ways. If one is not obviously better than the other then you can select on the basis of features such as the zoom and other modes you mentioned you like using.

I agree. I was describing the (IMO) simplest way to do it, where after the initial setup you will no longer have to mess with the TVs aspect ratio/mode.

[mjsmith3]

I have a similar problem with my S3 and Samsung DLP. Picture quality over HDMI is worse than it was with the SA8300HD. Used to have the SA8300 output fixed and let the DLP scale it. Tried the S3 in native mode, but I get an "incompatible mode" error on 480i content so this doesn't work (over HDMI). Tried the various other settings but SD is not as good as it was with the 8300.

Seems like people are suggesting that the solution is to switch to component rather than HDMI and then go native mode?

[megazone]

Which Sammy do you have? I have the HL-S6187W and it handles all formats just fine. I used to use Native, but I got annoyed by the flicker when it changed resolutions so I switched th 1080i Fixed. I think the picture is excellent and I really can't tell the difference between the TV and TiVo scaling it.

[mjsmith3]

I forget the exact model number but it is the HLP series