The Sopranos - "Made in America" *Series Finale* *spoilers*

[cheesesteak]

But that WAS the ending. You're asking Chase to tell the whole story AND THEN SOME because you want to know what happens AFTER the ending!

I don't think you're supposed to end the story in your head. I think you're supposed to leave it where it is. And if you don't get why that is an ending, then as has been said before, I really don't think you get what this show has been all along.
So what does a sudden black screen, out of nowhere, WTF ending have to do with "what this show has been all along"?

[unixadm]

The thing is that The Sopranos main story lines have ALL been about resolution and specifically Tony getting resolution to his problems.....

Big Pussy is talking to the feds....Tony figures it out, and even though Pussy is his friend, he had to resolve the issue...and he did.

Ralphie kills dancer then kills Pie-Oh-My and is out of control.....Tony took care of it and resolved the issue.

Jackie Jr hits the card game, and Tony has him whacked resolving the problem.

Tony B kills Joey Peeps, sparking the beginnings of a family war....Tony S resolves the issue in his own way, rather than letting Phil do it

Chrisopher always being a drug addict, an albatross around Tony's neck....had to be resolved, and Tony did it.

The war with Phil....it had to be resolved and it was.

All of Tony's issues.....he talked to Melfi to resolve his blackouts and personal problems....and either got resolutions or at least made sense out of his problems.


Yet, instead of giving us a final resolution to Tony's life, we are left to interpret our own meaning to the cut to black. Tony got more resolutions to his problems and issues then we got in the end.

Sorry...that "artsy, fartsy" non ending doesn't say that "he's brilliant" to me, but says that he didn't resolve the most important part of a show that was all about getting resolutions.

[disco]

Are these lyrics from Journey's "Don't Stop Believin'" possibly a tip of an upcoming movie?

Working hard to get my fill,
Everybody wants a thrill
Payin anything to roll the dice,
Just one more time
Some will win, some will lose
Some were born to sing the blues
Oh, the movie never ends
It goes on and on and on and on

(chorus)

Dont stop believin
Hold on to the feelin
Streetlight people
Livin' just to find emotion
Hidin', somewhere in the night

[unixadm]

Are these lyrics from Journey's "Don't Stop Believin'" possibly a tip of an upcoming movie?

I would say that it is more like others have said....that life goes on.

As the song says,
It never ends, it goes on and on and on and on

So the ending is that there is no ending.

Love the song, hated the ending....Pretty crappy IMO.

[Anubys]

There was a setup earlier about how Phils guy thought he was moving too fast and with all the heat that they should slow down and maybe work it out. Since Phil didn't want to do that, the NY guy went behind his back and worked it out with Tony, presumably for a larger role once Phil was out of the way...

someone with Phil's experience should not have made this mistake...once Tony survived the initial assault, time away from the action just gives everyone time to think how life would be without him...sure enough, his crew saw a chance to move up and save their own skin...very stupid mistake...

[Tsiehta]

could have been him, but since they never showed the killer, there is now way to definitely know.

they did show the killer

[7thton]

Thinking about it, I think it was brilliant.

The whole series the point was made time and again that things don't "end" just like life. What happened to the Russian? WTF does it matter? What happened to all those other lose ends in your life.

The family is eating dinner together. Life goes on. Does Tony get wacked? Does he go on trial? Maybe. It keeps on going.
+1

Everyone has their own idea about what happened. Chase gave us all the players in the restaurant....we don't know who they are or their motivations. It's up to us to fill in the blanks. I don't think it was lazy. Chase worked hard over many seasons to get us emerged in the Sopranos world. Now, based on the workings of that world, what happened at the end? There are lots of possible outcomes, none more or less "right" than any other. But answering that question is fun...but your mileage may vary.

[Odds Bodkins]

they did show the killer


It was Walden. Nothing like introducing a new character just to do the deed we've all been waiting on. Weak sauce.

[jgickler]

Great ending. The show is fundementally about Tony, Carmella, Meadow and AJ. I think this episode showed us that the family is still there, fundementallity they are the same, and regardless of what happens in Tony's work life, his family is whats most important to him.

My guess is that Chase resents the fact that while he has created such rich characters, such compelling relationships, and really groundbreaking portrails of a typical family in a non-typical environment, many viewers see the whole series as a mob show. They want, and expect hits, fights, bing girls, etc. and when they don't get these, they complain that the show has gone down hill or that it is boring.

So what Chase did IMO was say, here's a satisfying ending for those of you invested in the characters, and for those who just want to see a bloody end to the series, too bad. The ending to me said, life goes on, Tony's family is still the same family we grew to know way back in season 1, and while not perfect, all the 4 main characters are in a fairly stable place. Sure there are unresolved issues, but that is also a part of life. However, if you saw the Sopranos as just another mob show, finding interactions between characters as boring, then I can see how you feel the ending was not satisfying. I guess I also wonder how the series could ever be satisfying if you don't understand that its really a show about family.

[jeff125va]

Was referencing markymarks post where he stated we never saw the killer...
I got that. Was joking about the hallucinating part...

[Ekims]

Great ending. The show is fundementally about Tony, Carmella, Meadow and AJ. I think this episode showed us that the family is still there, fundementallity they are the same, and regardless of what happens in Tony's work life, his family is whats most important to him.

My guess is that Chase resents the fact that while he has created such rich characters, such compelling relationships, and really groundbreaking portrails of a typical family in a non-typical environment, many viewers see the whole series as a mob show. They want, and expect hits, fights, bing girls, etc. and when they don't get these, they complain that the show has gone down hill or that it is boring.

So what Chase did IMO was say, here's a satisfying ending for those of you invested in the characters, and for those who just want to see a bloody end to the series, too bad. The ending to me said, life goes on, Tony's family is still the same family we grew to know way back in season 1, and while not perfect, all the 4 main characters are in a fairly stable place. Sure there are unresolved issues, but that is also a part of life. However, if you saw the Sopranos as just another mob show, finding interactions between characters as boring, then I can see how you feel the ending was not satisfying. I guess I also wonder how the series could ever be satisfying if you don't understand that its really a show about family.


+1000 :up:

[TomK]

Great ending. The show is fundementally about Tony, Carmella, Meadow and AJ. I think this episode showed us that the family is still there, fundementallity they are the same, and regardless of what happens in Tony's work life, his family is whats most important to him.

My guess is that Chase resents the fact that while he has created such rich characters, such compelling relationships, and really groundbreaking portrails of a typical family in a non-typical environment, many viewers see the whole series as a mob show. They want, and expect hits, fights, bing girls, etc. and when they don't get these, they complain that the show has gone down hill or that it is boring.

So what Chase did IMO was say, here's a satisfying ending for those of you invested in the characters, and for those who just want to see a bloody end to the series, too bad. The ending to me said, life goes on, Tony's family is still the same family we grew to know way back in season 1, and while not perfect, all the 4 main characters are in a fairly stable place. Sure there are unresolved issues, but that is also a part of life. However, if you saw the Sopranos as just another mob show, finding interactions between characters as boring, then I can see how you feel the ending was not satisfying. I guess I also wonder how the series could ever be satisfying if you don't understand that its really a show about family.


+1

[jgickler]

The thing is that The Sopranos main story lines have ALL been about resolution and specifically Tony getting resolution to his problems.....

Big Pussy is talking to the feds....Tony figures it out, and even though Pussy is his friend, he had to resolve the issue...and he did.

Ralphie kills dancer then kills Pie-Oh-My and is out of control.....Tony took care of it and resolved the issue.

Jackie Jr hits the card game, and Tony has him whacked resolving the problem.

Tony B kills Joey Peeps, sparking the beginnings of a family war....Tony S resolves the issue in his own way, rather than letting Phil do it

Chrisopher always being a drug addict, an albatross around Tony's neck....had to be resolved, and Tony did it.

The war with Phil....it had to be resolved and it was.

All of Tony's issues.....he talked to Melfi to resolve his blackouts and personal problems....and either got resolutions or at least made sense out of his problems.


Yet, instead of giving us a final resolution to Tony's life, we are left to interpret our own meaning to the cut to black. Tony got more resolutions to his problems and issues then we got in the end.

Sorry...that "artsy, fartsy" non ending doesn't say that "he's brilliant" to me, but says that he didn't resolve the most important part of a show that was all about getting resolutions.


To me, those were not the main points of the series, and I would say if that is really what you got from the series, you really didn't get what Chase was trying to portray.

To me the main story lines were Tony and Carm raising their kids, how we cope with family relationships( Tony's mother, Uncle Jun, Janice etc), the loss of family members, keeping a marriage together even in the face of temptation ( gumbas, priest, Furio), working through problems, helping your kids grow into adults, and keeping your family togehter, even through trial and tribulation. These are the themes and plot lines that have been part of the entire show, these are the main plot points, and the mob stuff is really just a subplot to keep things a little more interesting.

[unixadm]

Great ending. The show is fundementally about Tony, Carmella, Meadow and AJ. I think this episode showed us that the family is still there, fundementallity they are the same, and regardless of what happens in Tony's work life, his family is whats most important to him.


So what Chase did IMO was say, here's a satisfying ending for those of you invested in the characters, and for those who just want to see a bloody end to the series, too bad. The ending to me said, life goes on, Tony's family is still the same family we grew to know way back in season 1, and while not perfect, all the 4 main characters are in a fairly stable place. Sure there are unresolved issues, but that is also a part of

I would have no problem whatsoever if they all met in the diner, had a few laughs, and it faded to black.....yes,that would be a satisfying ending, IMO that Tony's life continues and even though they aren't, that the Soprano's see themselves as a typical family.

I would have no problem whatsoever if they clearly indicated that Tony was whacked...weather it be they show it, or just a cut to black at the sound of a gunshot.

There is no satisfaction because we don't know if Tony continues his life with Carm, AJ and Meadow, or if they are left without a husband and father that night in the diner.

Having everyone check their cable/DirecTV signal thinking that it cut out at the most inopportune time is not a good ending, IMO.

[disco]

I would have no problem whatsoever if they all met in the diner, had a few laughs, and it faded to black.....yes,that would be a satisfying ending, IMO that Tony's life continues and even though they aren't, that the Soprano's see themselves as a typical family.

I would have no problem whatsoever if they clearly indicated that Tony was whacked...weather it be they show it, or just a cut to black at the sound of a gunshot.

There is no satisfaction because we don't know if Tony continues his life with Carm, AJ and Meadow, or if they are left without a husband and father that night in the diner.

+1

Question, though (raised by Artie on the Howard Stern Show this morning): who would have ordered the hit on Tony? The "war" was "over"...or was it??

Let's just face it: Chase is f'ing with us.

[jdag]

My take...Tony's life as he knew it is over (well, obviously). He could be dead, he could be in a constant state of paranoia, or he could be in jail. He's NOT in the witness protection program as he really had nothing more to offer the Feds. Couple of things to consider:

1) Agent Harris saying "we won" - Tony knows that the Feds control the mob now. Harris was able to spare Tony's life by tipping him off on the latest contract on his life. Also, Harris gave Tony Phil's head on a platter. Dance puppet, dance.

2) Could he (and even his immediate family) be dead? Sure. Maybe a bomb in the restaurant. Maybe a gunman coming from the bathroom? Whatever, it is possible. Last week's episode found Tony whispering to Carm something to the effect "you know that families are off limits". Well, that was shot down on the failed hit with Phil's goomar/father, as well as with Phil being killed right in front of his family. They all could be dead.

Alive, dead, it really doesn't matter. The Soprano crime family no longer exists, and Tony knows that. Or he's dead...and doesn't know that.

[unixadm]

+1

Question, though (raised by Artie on the Howard Stern Show this morning): who would have ordered the hit on Tony? The "war" was "over"...or was it??

Let's just face it: Chase is f'ing with us.

Although it was "over", we really don't know. Just because a couple of guys in Phil's crew meet with Tony and make "nicey, nice", doesn't mean that they called it off. Who knows....there could be people upset with how Phil was hit...in front of his wife and kids and no chance at an open casket........or maybe Little Carmine took over for NY and decided it was time for Tony to go now.

[GDG76]

Whatever, it is possible. Last week's episode found Tony whispering to Carm something to the effect "you know that families are off limits". Well, that was shot down on the failed hit with Phil's goomar/father, as well as with Phil being killed right in front of his family. They all could be dead.


There is a difference between seeing someone killed and killing them. They probably try to spare the family having to see it, but Phil's situation was different, being in hiding.

I can't recall on the show when a made guy killed anyone who was a family member unless they were in the mob themselves. It's one of the "mobster justifications" in that they only clip people who are involved....

[Rob Helmerichs]

I would have no problem whatsoever if they all met in the diner, had a few laughs, and it faded to black.....yes,that would be a satisfying ending, IMO that Tony's life continues and even though they aren't, that the Soprano's see themselves as a typical family.
But that wouldn't have gotten across the sheer terror that Tony's life will continue under. Every random customer he sees in a diner could be a potential hit man--and some day, probably will be one. That whole scene was a brilliant exercise in building tension, not because something was going to happen but because Tony is always aware that something could happen.

I think in part Chase is a victim of his own success. There was enough mob action stuff in it to keep people enjoying the show while ignoring (or in some cases, perhaps not even being aware of) the central themes...mistaking the salad and desert for the main course. But the mob hits were always a side dish, and it's entirely appropriate that he end the show in the spirit of its main themes, instead of letting the ancillary stuff suddenly take over just to please, well, people who probbly weren't as big fans of the show as they thought.

[disco]

Although it was "over", we really don't know. Just because a couple of guys under Phil meet with Tony and make "nicey, nice", doesn't mean that they called it off. Who knows....there could be people upset with how it was done....in front of his wife and kids and no chance at an open casket........or maybe Little Carmine took over for NY and decided it was time for Tony to go now.If it was "time for Tony to go", why wouldn't the killer just shoot him when he arrives?? Instead, he waits at the counter where waitresses/staff can eyewitness him and recognize him in a lineup. And why go to the bathroom?? It's not like in The Godfather where he had to be searched when he walked in, then go get the gun from the back of the toilet. I'm lost. And that's what is most disappointing of this episode. Yeah, it's thought provoking. Yeah, it's making us talk (something Chase has got to LOVE). But I'm still unsatisfied.

[Anubys]

1) Agent Harris saying "we won" - Tony knows that the Feds control the mob now. Harris was able to spare Tony's life by tipping him off on the latest contract on his life. Also, Harris gave Tony Phil's head on a platter. Dance puppet, dance.


I totally disagree with this idea...Harris had been investigating Tony for a long time...and as long as the war is between two families (and not gangsters versus civilians), the FBI has had a long policy of letting the dogs kill each other...Harris simply had an emotional investment is "his" crew beating the NY crew...

[unixadm]

But that wouldn't have gotten across the sheer terror that Tony's life will continue under. Every random customer he sees in a diner could be a potential hit man--and some day, probably will be one. That whole scene was a brilliant exercise in building tension, not because something was going to happen but because Tony is always aware that something could happen.

I think in part Chase is a victim of his own success. There was enough mob action stuff in it to keep people enjoying the show while ignoring (or in some cases, perhaps not even being aware of) the central themes...mistaking the salad and desert for the main course. But the mob hits were always a side dish, and it's entirely appropriate that he end the show in the spirit of its main themes, instead of letting the ancillary stuff suddenly take over just to please, well, people who probbly weren't as big fans of the show as they thought.

Ok...going with this they could have had the exact same ending, but after the fade to black, have Tony's voice saying "You never see it coming"....meaning that he is always living on the edge...it still wouldn't be definitve that he died (although it would imply that), but shows that at anytime his life could end in an instant.

When there are authoritative sources that say that the ending meant that Tony was whacked, and other authoritative sources that say he lived on, it shows that Chase didn't convey the ending well.

[phodg]

Why are people assuming that Tony got whacked ? With Phil gone, there was a truce in place with New York. These guys might be stone cold killers, but business comes first. The new guys in New York have no beef with Tony. They have absolutely no reason to whack him. And an attempt on the head of a family wouldn't even be thought of without the word coming down from the top.
Tony's fine - at least until the subpeona comes down.

[angbear1985]

When Tony was telling AJ that he was going to Uncle Bobby's funeral - and AJ thought that would be too out in the open, Tony said that the Fed's would be there.
So - that was to make him safer?

[Dawghows]

You need to see the engine rounding the top of the hill....and saying "I thought I could, I thought I could".Maybe you need it, but that's clearly not the case for everyone.

The thing is that The Sopranos main story lines have ALL been about resolution and specifically Tony getting resolution to his problems.....
To me, those were not the main points of the series, and I would say if that is really what you got from the series, you really didn't get what Chase was trying to portray....
Regardless of any resolution Tony's character found personally, we the viewers have been denied resolution time and again throughout the series. There are untold numbers of red herrings here and dropped plotlines there (most of which were complained about right here on these boards) through the entire run. Any given character in the show may or may not have resolved an issue in any given episode, but that is pretty demonstratively not what the series was "about."

[FlugPoP]

1) Agent Harris saying "we won" - Tony knows that the Feds control the mob now. Harris was able to spare Tony's life by tipping him off on the latest contract on his life. Also, Harris gave Tony Phil's head on a platter. Dance puppet, dance.



I think that he said "we won" because he was on Tony's side. He way basicly cheering for Jersey to win. His team won!

[fmowry]

When Tony was telling AJ that he was going to Uncle Bobby's funeral - and AJ thought that would be too out in the open, Tony said that the Fed's would be there.
So - that was to make him safer?

Phil's crew wasn't going to whack Tony at the funeral with all the feds there.

Frank

[ReenieS]

During the last 10 minutes of the show, we were on edge, looking at every figure in the frame as a potential assassin. My husband and I were arguing the guy at the counter is a hitter, no, he's a FED! ACK! When the screen went to black I thought the cable went out, and we both screamed at the TV. Then we were mad when we realized that was the end.

But I think this is an ending that has to "sink in". After we calmed down from being royally peeved, we realized that this was actually a good ending.

So it didn't tie up all the loose ends? It sets up a potential follow-up to the series for a follow-up big-screen movie (if necessary) or it ends the series with your own imagination.

The whole final episode was a setup about "what we expected to happen". I wondered if Tony was going to take out Uncle Jun - nope, he just made him think that "the Godfather" was part of his real-life memories. I wondered if the ducks were going to come back to the pool. I wondered if Tony would be nice to Janice. I wondered if Paulie truly was the informant (nope, just idiodic superstitions, as usual). I wondered if Meadow was going to get run over by shear accident, crossing the road.

With Journey echoing in your ears "Don't stop believing" we are encouraged to form our own ending. Here's my ending:

1. The family is safe for now, but Tony might be indicted soon.
2. AJ has gotten over his altruistic stage and reverted to the selfish little pig that he has always been.
3. Meadow is in school and happy with her beau and a bright future.
4. Carmela will soon be focusing full-time on her next housing project.
5. That yellow tabby cat will eventually be the end of the superstitious Paulie.
6. Silvio can recover (just like Tony did).By the way, is Patsy Parisi still running?
7. The FBI guy will get sacked, because his "girlfriend/source" realized that she was used for information against Philly. Especially after Phil was "crushed".
7. Tony will go into therapy with AJ's therapist (who appears to be a younger clone version of Dr. Melfi).

Those were my thoughts on the finale, and that's what I choose to "believe-in".

Whatcha gonna do?

[comic75]

I think the FBI's we won statement was maybe a reference to an office pool?

[jeff125va]

Why are people assuming that Tony got whacked ? With Phil gone, there was a truce in place with New York. These guys might be stone cold killers, but business comes first. The new guys in New York have no beef with Tony. They have absolutely no reason to whack him. And an attempt on the head of a family wouldn't even be thought of without the word coming down from the top.
Tony's fine - at least until the subpeona comes down.
Right. On top of that, there was no indication that they were faking everything that they were saying at the truce meeting. I.e., that Phil had gone too far, etc. I interpreted their "do what you need to do" comment to mean that they were fine with Tony's guys taking Phil out.

[Rob Helmerichs]

When there are authoritative sources that say that the ending meant that Tony was whacked, and other authoritative sources that say he lived on, it shows that Chase didn't convey the ending well.
No, it means he conveyed the ending perfectly. Tony will live in fear the rest of his life, whether that be ten seconds or ten years.

Whether he lives ten seconds or ten years doesn't matter for the story.

[5thcrewman]

Why didn't Tony pick some Springsteen or Bon Jovi instead of something that sounds like a Democratic Presidential Candidate's campaign song?

[Rob Helmerichs]

Why didn't Tony pick some Springsteen or Bon Jovi instead of something that sounds like a Democratic Presidential Candidate's campaign song?
Well, it couldn't be Springsteen because the guitarist was comatose in a hospital bed...

[Bob_Newhart]

I was halfway dozing at the end of the episode, but when Tony first walked into the diner, for a second there I thought that he was looking at himself sitting in that booth. That is, I thought that maybe it was a throwback to when he got shot and he (dreamed?) that he was a salesman. I was thinking that they would show this other Tony and then his family and it would turn out that he wasn't a gangster this whole time. Like that was his fantasy life.

But that would have sucked as hard as the ending that was. IMO.

[FlugPoP]

Well, it couldn't be Springsteen because the guitarist was comatose in a hospital bed...


LOL

[cheesesteak]

I think there are two different factions in the "I hated the ending" camp.

1) I hated the sudden, black screen, did my cable go out ending.

2) I hated the no carnage at the restaurant ending.


I'm in faction #1. I don't really care how Chase ended the show (although it made little sense for Tony to be whacked - the war was over). The open ended ending idea was fine with me. The way he presented it sucked, though.

[JohnB1000]

People are so short-term. In no way could this ever match the "badness" of the Seinfeld finale and some others. It seems most shows final show are not well received (Deadwood another example).

I was OK with it, a decent show, the tension at the ending was great and the cut to black surprising but it made me chuckle afterwards.

[rimler]

I think Tony got wacked. He had the same look on his face that all the characters had just a nanosecond before the bullet hits....Bobby being the latest example....Tony B being another. If they don't get it in the back of the head, they see the killer, recognize it for what's coming, then boom!......gone.

I agree with Cheesesteak, I'm not sure why he'd be wacked, unless one of the other families is just tired of the carnage and BS from the Soprano crew. I think it's one of those open threads that Chase weaves throughout the show, that there's no answer to.

I'm squarely in the "loved it" corner of the show. Great ending, and an ending that fits in well with the rest of the show.

[marksman]

I think Chase's biggest problem is he over-estimated his audience...

Without trying to be mean, this reaction really makes me worried about the future of television. Sopranos might be considered a more high brow television show. Yet there is a lot of outrage that the Sopranos was not ended in a more cliche and contrived manner. It is disconcerting to be honest. I have not heard any alternative endings, here or elsewhere that are anything but predictable, expectable and wholly television typical endings. In other words more of what people expected. The Sopranos would not even exist if David Chase adhered to that ideology.

[marksman]

You're missing the point. We're not saying the show didn't have an ending...we're saying THE ENDING SUCKED!!!

Sure, them eating dinner is "an ending". But I didn't watch an entire series because it was about people doing daily routine stuff.

Yeah but that is the show. The show has ALWAYS been about the family, and how they relate to each other and how the struggle to get by, despite their considered good fortune. That has been the centerpiece of the show. So ifyou haven't been watching it for the reason it exists, that is your choice, but that does not change the reality that has always been the show.



You know the ending sucked when most people watching it thought their cable went out. That's not the result you want when creating a show or a movie.

Why not? It certainly provoked a reaction.

[marksman]

For the Tony got whacked conspirators...

What hit man sits in the diner and watches them, then goes to the bathroom?

Too many witnesses, too many people to recognize a face. They usually just walk in, rip off a few rounds and walk out.

Yeah I am not into that at all. We have seen a lot of hits on the show, and every single one of them were done quickly with the person dropping the gun and walking away.

Nobody stood around staring or waiting, or going to the bathroom.

I think people are making more of it than was there.. but that was kind of the point. We were subject to our own paranoia and fears. If you watch Tony's reaction the entire scene he was never the least bit concerned or worried with all those different people coming in... yet he supposedly has an instinct for this honed from experience.

I just think they went to eat dinner at a dinner, and the show ended.

[pdhenry]

I was expecting Sil to be in the hospital bed without his rug, not with just with hair that hadn't been slicked back. Wasn't that supposed to be obviously a toupe?

[marksman]

Yes I am sure Chase's intention was to make everyone thing their cable/satellite signal went out...just brilliant!

What ending would have been ok for me? An ending. I would have been happier if NJ got nuked, or if there was a slow fade showing them eating onion rings, or how about all of the possible "bad guys" in the diner slowly start to make their way towards Tony for an undetermined reason and then a slow fade...

Anything but the "my cable went out" moment...

I don't see how ANY of those endings are better than the one they had. The last one doesn't even make any sense.

The first one is extremely ridiculous. Fading out while eating onion rings, how is that better than just abruptly ending it. Again that would be an expected ending, potentially. They have ended many a season fading out with the family. Now he wanted it to end abruptly and completely. It is just weird that changing the ending from an abrupt cut to a fade out would have made people change their perception of the show to go from an F to a B or C grade.

[Dukeman72]

For everyone wondering who it was that killed Phil, he was Benny from the NJ mob. He has been on the show for a few seasons now. Actor's name is Max Casella (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0143295/)

I loved how Phil died, BTW...
I thought it was the guy that was working out in the Bing when Pauly walked in and they started talking about the cat. :confused:Frank John Hughes??http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0400606/

[marksman]

could have been him, but since they never showed the killer, there is now way to definitely know.

They showed him clearly. He was standing over Phil and shot him again. It was clearly Benny.

[TonyD79]

But that doesn't explain the completely unconventional way it ended - a cut to black and an abrupt termination of the audio in the middle of the song. The ending could have been made ambiguous without going outside the normal cinematic vocabulary, e.g. a fade to black with the music still playing. The ending was so unconventional that we all assumed at first that there was a technical problem, and I think that had to have been done for a reason. Showing Tony's murder from his perspective fits perfectly.

No, it doesn't.

Not one second of the entire series was shown from Tony's perspective. Neither was this because the last thing we saw was Tony's face. How is that from his perspective?

Anyone can try to explain the ending all they want. It was horrible. A series that pretty much left nothing up to the viewer to interpret suddenly leaves the ending wide open?

(And I would have preferred to have the four of them sitting down and chatting with a fade to black...you can still have Tony being paranoid about everyone around him. That would have been an ending. The CUT to black was ********.)

I would believe if someone came out and said that there was a technical glitch and they screwed up in trying to run one of the four endings and the system cutover failed. That would make more sense than the CUT to black they did.

[InterMurph]

The one question I have is, how was killing Tony the easy way out as so many people seem to believe? Can someone tell me another show in the history of television that ended with the main character being killed?
Homicide. Bayliss wasn't exactly the "main" character, but the show followed him from the beginning (new guy on the homicide squad, underqualified) to the end (gunned down).

And Homicide was the best TV drama ever.

[TonyD79]

Actually, it's the exact opposite. The fact that everyone is angry and thinks theyir cable went out tells me that they did a great job of trying to convey their ending

Only if their ending was "screw the viewers."

[xuxa]

Along with Tony getting shot and us viewing from his perspective, the audience experiences getting shot as well. It allows the audience to feel the "never saw it coming" and all of the frustrations, anger and unresolved issues that comes with getting killed suddenly. Judging from this thread it worked very well.

[bruinfan]

it seems the reviews are across the board... WTF to brilliant. From reading and talking to people, i don't think LOVED IT is a big minority. I'm sure Chase fully expected this reaction.

I liked it, but am a little frustrated with the ending, but [stuart smalley]that's... OK. [/smalley]

i think he's not dead. the hitman mechanics and the 'noone to order the hit' theories sway me.

question:
when meadow and patsy were explaining meadow's case she would be working on.. defending the govt official... and carm and tony had a look on their face... was the point of that meadow would be working to defend mob actions??? bribes from the mafia and the such? that's kind of what i got, but am not sure... who was the client exactly?

[TonyD79]

And the picture went to black at "Don't stop...."

Major suckness....

At least Chase could have had the balls to give us an ending of some kind, not this BS viewer-interpretation crapola! Instead of making a writing decision and living with it and taking the criticism or praise heaped upon him by the viewers and the media, we are left with the "sh*t my cable just went out" moment!



Exactly. He took a cop-out. He didn't have an ending so he just crapped out.

[TonyD79]

adding in the way the series has always been shot from Tony's perspective.

It has NEVER been shot from Tony's perspective. Tony is the central character but it was NEVER shot from his perspective. He is not the narrator. And scenes go on without his knowledge, so it is not from his perspective.

Apologists for this ending are making things up.

[scoblitz]

Love the song, hated the ending....Pretty crappy IMO.

Thanks for finally stepping up and telling us how you really feel - I was starting to tire of the ambiguity... :rolleyes:

SB

[TonyD79]

I think it was a great ending. I think we saw things from Tony's perspective. He had his family, feeling good, but also paying attention to things around him, an inner nervousness and then it all ends suddenly.

I think we saw the final whack from a perspective we hadn't seen before.

And that is bad storytelling 101. You don't change perspective suddenly in telling a story. Not when six seasons is told by an omniscient perspective. You don't suddenly go from a single persons. And how is the last thing Tony sees his own face without a mirror.

Indulgent crapola.

[TonyD79]

It is funny you think it would have taken more balls to "give us some kind of an ending".

For one he did give us an ending.

No. Cutting off the camera is not an ending. It is an interruption. By your definition, just stopping filming is an ending. This was not an ending. An ending doesn't have 99% of the viewers wondering if their TV broke.

[TonyD79]

Why do you want closure? Because all other shows try to do that? Because that is what a tv show is supposed to do? Again, I will say this, but this show has never been about doing things the way other shows did them. Why would you have expected some kind of closure with a nice little bow. Personally I would have felt cheated with such a pedestrian ending.

You know, that is ********. It hasn't been doing things "its way" at all. HBO propoganda. It is just a gangster movie dragged out over six seasons. What was new and different? That they cursed? That there was sex? That they killed people? That the villians were considered sympathetic and flawed? None of that was "new" except that much of it was never done on television before.

And I bet you would have been defending the ending if it ended "conventionially" or were you rooting for this particular ending? How did you envision that?

[MasterOfPuppets]

I haven't read all of the thread.
I will join the WTF crowd...absolutely horrible ending.
I agree that they left the possibility for a movie wide open, but the way they did it left absolutely no resolution for fans of the show.
When it ended, I thought somebody had screwed with the...uhhh...method that I acquired this show...apparently not.
Was that Meadow's first time ever parking a car?
I don't think there's any way that Tony and family's life just went on, Tony was looking at some serious jail time if none of the shifty characters in the restaurant popped him.
Terrible.

ETA: Leaving the possibility to make more money wide open is not "brilliance", it's just greed and completely screwing up what has become a ridiculously overhyped event.

[MickeS]

An ending doesn't have 99% of the viewers wondering if their TV broke.

That just proves that 99% of viewers are idiots.

[TonyD79]

I liked it as well.

Dead for sure. There is no other point to showing Meadow taking so long to park.

Go back and watch all the shots where the door bell rings. Camera on Tony. Door rings. Camera from Tony's POV. This happened four times. The final time it was Meadow. Camera on Meadow. Camera on Tony. Bell. Black. There is no more Tony POV - because he is dead.

-Mike

Bad ending if we have to debate it. Chase failed. A show that never got artsy and showed you exactly what it meant suddenly has to be interpreted?

That is nothing but an apology for Chase.

[TonyD79]

That just proves that 99% of viewers are idiots.

Thanks a lot. You didn't think for a split second something was wrong? A show that prided itself in its ending music and how it spills into the credits suddenly goes black?

And a very nice F* you from the creators to the people who made him rich.

[chuckwny]

I think that he said "we won" because he was on Tony's side. He way basicly cheering for Jersey to win. His team won!

"We’re gonna win this thing" was almost a direct quote from R. Lindley DeVecchio (http://www.post-gazette.com/win/day6_1a.asp)

A real life agent who the Harris character seems based on.

[bdlucas]

Not one second of the entire series was shown from Tony's perspective. Neither was this because the last thing we saw was Tony's face. How is that from his perspective?
Of course it was. Read mostman's post again - every time the door bell rang, we switched to seeing it from Tony's perspective. The next shot after seeing Tony's face would have been what he saw looking at the door, and what he saw was nothing because he was dead.

[danielhart]

I posted earlier in this thread in a less direct fashion, and I think the reference got lost in a mountain of posts - so I will be more direct:

The ending was a classic example of ( Lady or the Tiger ) (http://www.eastoftheweb.com/short-stories/UBooks/LadyTige.shtml) ambiguity. And if the notion that this type of ending is designed so that the choice says more about the viewer or reader, i.e. the creator turns the table so that you see the ending based on how you see the world, then I'd say that, in reviewing this and other threads, Chase got what he was aiming for.

Personally though, Lady or the Tiger endings tend to annoy the sh*t out of me......

[scottie]

I loved the ending. But I must say I loved the first shot of the opening scene of the episode even more. Close up of Tony laying in bed but the shot was cropped to look like he was in a coffin and there was organ pipe music playing in the background.

Nice. Anyone else catch that?

[MasterOfPuppets]

If the darkness was truly Tony's POV, he still would have heard a gunshot at some point in time.

[unixadm]

If the darkness was truly Tony's POV, he still would have heard a gunshot at some point in time.

Doubt it.....by the time the sound of the shot reaches his ears, and before his brain has a chance to process and interpret the sound, he would already be dead. If you are shot in the head, your brain wouldn't have had a chance to process the information before your brain is scrambled to the point of being non-functioning. You only hear something because your brain processed it.....if your brain is destroyed before it processes what the ear drum picked up, then it wouldn't be heard.

I agree that if that is what Chase was trying to portray, we should have gone black with the sound of a gunshot, and as I said before, maybe a voice over by Tony with "You never see it coming"

[brianp6621]

I just don't understand this reasoning. If you have a story to tell, tell the whole story, including the ending. It's like listening to a song that fades out at the end because the artists were too lazy or disinterested to write an ending. If I'm supposed to end the Sopranos in my head, I would have ended it after season seven.

I enjoy TV as much as the next guy with a recliner, but...

Lots of people think art (in multiple forms including TV) should be thought provoking and engage your imagination. If TV was as wrapped up as you suggest it should be, it really is the idiot box every says it is. I would MUCH prefer a show that gets me thinking/questioning/imagining things on my own EVEN if it pissed me off in doing so rather than a mind numbing trip through all the details so I didn't have to wiggle a neuron.

[GDG76]

I agree that if that is what Chase was trying to portray, we should have gone black with the sound of a gunshot, and as I said before, maybe a voice over by Tony with "You never see it coming"

To me, that would be as ridiculous as you think the actual ending was :) Sounds more like a cheesy movie trailer than the end to a great TV show.... and there would still be people on here debating as to whether or not it was Tony that got shot, was he dead, when is the movie coming out, etc...

[snowjay]

Of course it was. Read mostman's post again - every time the door bell rang, we switched to seeing it from Tony's perspective. The next shot after seeing Tony's face would have been what he saw looking at the door, and what he saw was nothing because he was dead.

I thought this was the case last night but after thinking about it I don't believe thats what happened. The hitman isn't going to stake out the diner and then go take a leak before he kills Tony. How they heck would they know he's there anyway. Not like the dinner was a set planned event. I also don't think we were seeing things through Tony's eyes. Maybe from his point of view but not through his eyes.

Instead I'm going on the theory that "we" never saw it coming. It was a big build up, we were expecting something to happen, reading into every detail and then BAM! Shows over. We never saw it coming.

[TiVo'Brien]

Right. On top of that, there was no indication that they were faking everything that they were saying at the truce meeting. I.e., that Phil had gone too far, etc. I interpreted their "do what you need to do" comment to mean that they were fine with Tony's guys taking Phil out.Recall from the NY family war for the top spot, different factions of the NY family were supporting different bosses. A disgruntled Phil supporter could have gone off the reservation and taken out Tony.

[brianp6621]

A show that never got artsy and showed you exactly what it meant suddenly has to be interpreted?


Wow, you really haven't been watching/following.

[CharlieW]

It has NEVER been shot from Tony's perspective. Tony is the central character but it was NEVER shot from his perspective. He is not the narrator. And scenes go on without his knowledge, so it is not from his perspective.

Apologists for this ending are making things up.


It has been shot from Tony's perspective -- not in a first person sort of way, but the narrative of the entire series follows Tony and we follow along. He is not in every single scene, but damn near 85% of them. And of the 15% he's not in, about 50% of those have something to do with him.

I'm not apologizing for Chase -- because he doesn't need apologizing for. The series was his vision, he stayed true to that vision from beginning to end and never took "the easy way out". Was I disappointed by the ambiguity in the ending of the series -- a little, but truthfully -- as this season went along, it's what I expected.

[CharlieW]

Of course it was. Read mostman's post again - every time the door bell rang, we switched to seeing it from Tony's perspective. The next shot after seeing Tony's face would have been what he saw looking at the door, and what he saw was nothing because he was dead.


We also saw Tony's POV when looking at the songs on the jukebox.

[unixadm]

Instead I'm going on the theory that "we" never saw it coming. It was a big build up, we were expecting something to happen, reading into every detail and then BAM! Shows over. We never saw it coming.

Yeah, I am thinking the same thing....

I see one of two ways that Chase is trying to portray it:

1
We don't know what happens to Tony....because we're dead

We never saw it coming.....we were expecting one guy to get whacked, and instead, BLAM.....we are dead.

We can't see Tony, Carm, AJ or Meadow anymore....because we are lying on the floor dead.

I really think this was the end that Chase was trying to portray...we were watching on the sidelines of this crime family, became evolved emotionally with them. We have taken some pleasure in seeing some of the violence and the hits of some of the past characters....we are now are part of the carnage that came from the life of crime we have become a part of.

Chase has killed us as the audience...thus ending any more interaction with Tony, and thus ending any more knowledge of his future.

2
We keep seeing Tony's nervousness and his POV at times during the diner scene.....I have to re-watch, but if the cut to black was when we were seeing from Tony's POV, then it is Tony that get's whacked....and it cuts to black because his life is over.

[Anubys]

if it were from Tony perspective, wouldn't the camera have been on Carm or AJ's face before going to black?

if we're supposed to see nothing because Tony suddenly sees nothing, then the last camera shot should have been of what Tony was seeing THEN go to black...

[scottykempf]

I don't know which way to go on this one. Yes, it was different and thought provoking. No, it wasn't very satisfying as the series finale. An ending like this CAN work, but only if it is used sparingly. If EVERY tv show, book or movie just cut out at the end, then that would break the trust of the reader. Why would you read a book if you knew that the story wasn't wrapped up in some fashion, but instead just left you wondering.

[unixadm]

if it were from Tony perspective, wouldn't the camera have been on Carm or AJ's face before going to black?

if we're supposed to see nothing because Tony suddenly sees nothing, then the last camera shot should have been of what Tony was seeing THEN go to black...

That is why I think Chase has pulled a fast one and "killed us as an audience". We have no idea and will never know what happens to Tony....because we have been killed by a hitman. Does Big Pussy, Christopher, Ralphie, TonyB, Phil, etc wonder what happened to Tony?....no, they are dead...once you are dead, your view into the lives of the Soprano family is gone.

Some people will hail this as "brilliant".....but I see it as a way to wiggle out of giving an definitive end to Tony Soprano's life of crime.

[marksman]

Thanks a lot. You didn't think for a split second something was wrong? A show that prided itself in its ending music and how it spills into the credits suddenly goes black?

And a very nice F* you from the creators to the people who made him rich.

All the more emphasis to say this is IT.

We all know the music at the end flows to the credits.

This episode it stopped cold, to emphasis the point that the show is over.

No more. Kaput.

[jradosh]

As much as I was disappointed in the ending (literally saying "what the f&ck"), I'll give it this much... the ending wasn't a trite wrap-up like (for example) "M*A*S*H". It tried to be different and for that I give it some credit. There were many more ways Chase could have ended the show that would have been worse.

That said, I feel manipulated by this ending. That goes very much against much of the show's history. It was never really a manipulative show. It hit you straight and honestly.

This ending... not so much. :(

[Anubys]

That is why I think Chase has pulled a fast one and "killed us as an audience". We have no idea and will never know what happens to Tony....because we have been killed by a hitman.

Some people will hail this as "brilliant".....but I see it as a way to wiggle out of giving an definitive end to Tony Soprano's life of crime.

well, that's not very fair of you...

first, you make an assumption about what Chase's intent was (one that is not very likely) then you condemn him for it!

my very first intuition was that Tony was dead and that's why we abruptly cut to black (ok, after I thought my dish went dead ;) )...but then I quickly discounted that because we were not looking through his eyes at the moment...

the logical conclusion is that "life went on" but the story ended...I think it's fair to pan him for what is most likely the intent, but not fair to pan him for all the unlikely scenarios that we can dream of...

[Kevdog]

Actually no its not. There was no real beginning. The show started squarely in the middle and ended squarely in the middle.

The show has never been like that.

You don't have to interpret what happened. You can assume the show ended the very second that it went to black.

The show is praised for years for being different and doing things its own way, yet again, at the end gets blasted for not doing things like everyone else.

I don't personally care if people like it or not. I can envision a lot of different endings, I don't particular see how any of them would have made the series or this episode better.

Absolutely spot on. After so many seasons of loose ends and red herrings, I'm amazed that so many people who claim to like this show are complaining that it wasn't tied up in a nice little package. What have you been watching?

[jerobi]

Interesting conversation, so far.

I'm okay with the ending. In the end, it's a business. Name any clear cut ending and I think you'll find that 75% of people would hate it. By leaving us all in the dark, he still has a possible 100% audience for the first movie...or comic...or book, if and when it comes down to it.

It leaves the writers a lot of leeway for whatever comes next. And you can be sure that a large enough percentage of people will still want to know what happened. I'm excited for the next season of Weeds after their Mexican-standoff style cliffhanger scene.

The ending gets a standard aloof Sopranos grade for plot clarity, but that's kinda par for the course for this show. I kinda liked the tense buildup with everyone entering and moving in the final scene. I'm not saying it was great, but it wasn't horrible either.

Update: I also agree heavily with Marksman in his comment that the show started in the middle and ended in the middle.

[marksman]

You know, that is ********. It hasn't been doing things "its way" at all. HBO propoganda.

Not really. Perhaps you judgement is clouded by the fact that so many shows since the Sopranos debuted over 8 years ago have borrowed from them, thus making you think it is more common place than it was when it started.



It is just a gangster movie dragged out over six seasons.

I am squarely convinced that those people who did not like the ending and have groused for the last 3 years are almost all in this camp. Yet the reality is the show has never been a gangster movie. It has always been a family drama. Yet some people who never did understand the show and still don't only clamored for more mob and more killing. You never understood the point of the show, so it is not a surprise that you don't understand or appreciate the ending.

None of that was "new" except that much of it was never done on television before.

HAHA.


And I bet you would have been defending the ending if it ended "conventionially" or were you rooting for this particular ending? How did you envision that?

I didn't have any hard-fast preconceived notions. I did expect that Tony would personally kill Phil in the final episode. But the show has ALWAYS been about buckng expectation and not taking the easy way out. People think making a cliched and trivial ending would have some how made the show better. Those people don't understand the show. The more time I have had to think ont he ending the more I appreciate it. The story ended. it is over, it is done. Finality. Not a happy ending, not a sad ending.

I got to be honest it is hard not to become almost insulting in this, because the over-reaction does not make a lot of sense to me. So I will quote what a local radio dj told her co-hosts when discussing the show..."I did not realize you guys were so simple-minded."

The show was different because it always walked through with the thread that life is ambigious and unpredictable. Stuff happens, and then more stuff happens, and other times nothing happens. It struck a chord because it ressonanted how life actually is, not how fairybook story telling in the television and movies has mostly been. Yet here people are clamoring for some story book ending, or in other cases absolutely absurd ending.

I don't care what the ending was, but I would have been disappointed if they went out in some sort of gangsger cliche. That has never been this show. Now matter how much some of you try to argue that would have made a good ending. I again say to you, you never got the show.

[unixadm]

All the more emphasis to say this is IT.

We all know the music at the end flows to the credits.

This episode it stopped cold, to emphasis the point that the show is over.

No more. Kaput.

We KNEW it was over....we knew that this was the finale.....no more, Kaput....

So why not give us an resolution to Tony's story...either good, bad or indifferent?

A cut to black, dead silence is not a resolution to the show.

As I said before, I really think that the ending is that we as an audience are sitting there in the diner watching Tony thinking he is the guy to get whacked....and someone killed us.....so the show is over because we are dead...we were the character on the sidelines that got whacked.

If this really was Chase's intention, I think it is cheesy and not what this show has been about (as others have said)....the show was about Tony and his two families and his issues.......and the ending should have at least given us closure to that story....even if it is that Tony, Carm, AJ and Meadow eat their dinner with no issues.

If Chase's intention was that Tony's life goes on with Carm, AJ and Meadow as a nuclear family.....then a nice fade to black with Journey singing "it goes on, and on, and on" would be a better end.

If Chase's intention was to indicate that Tony is whacked at the diner, then we should have heard a gunshot, then a cut to black....or a hit of Tony in the head with no chance of survival.

We really don't know WHAT Chase's intention was....and therein lies the problem. If we don't understand what the ending represents, then he did a poor job of conveying his ideas, thoughts, and intentions.

[dolfer]

Have any other "endings" (TV or movie) in recent memory generated as much controversy as this one?

Chase probably loves all of this. For better or worse, I don't think he ever cared about (or catered to) the audiences' wishes.

[crazywater]

That just proves that 99% of viewers are idiots.
Oh really...owning a TiVo Series 3, I think I have a reason to think that something crapped out or went terribly wrong with my video signal...

[trojanrabbit]

All I know is, at 10:15 (she was behind) I had to listen to my wife screaming that her f**king TiVo stopped working and I had to fix it NOW! GET IN HERE NOW AND FIX IT BEFORE I MISS IT. THIS IS YOUR FAULT!

I kid you not. Totally obsessed.

Glad I didn't watch a single episode, and maybe now I can get her to cancel HBO.

[trojanrabbit]

Oh really...owning a TiVo Series 3, I think I have a reason to think that something crapped out or went terribly wrong with my video signal...

I'd say a Comcast (or insert your cable co here) subscriber could come to the same conclusion.

[pendragn]

Have any other "endings" (TV or movie) in recent memory generated as much controversy as this one?

Seinfeld immediately comes to mind.

tk

[bigray327]

I was pissed at first, but now I like the ending. I didn't read through most of this thread, so sorry if this was already mentioned, but I think he's definitely dead and was killed by the guy going to the bathroom. They killed Phil in front of his family, and I believe they wanted the same fate for Tony, so the guy was sitting around, waiting for Meadow to arrive before he shot Tony. He went to the bathroom, came out, saw she was there, and popped Tony. I'm much happier with the ending if I think about it that way.

[Dawghows]

Chase probably loves all of this. For better or worse, I don't think he ever cared about (or catered to) the audiences' wishes.Judging by some of the interviews I've read and heard about him over the years, I would imagine that if he ever considered the audience in any way at all it was probably to deliberately NOT give us what we wanted. And I say thumbs up to that.

[Chuck_IV]

Whether or not the story is being told from Tony's perspective, it was never being told thru his eyes only. As another mentioned, things happened behind his back, that WE saw, but he didn't.

Sorry, but the idea that he was gunned down, at the end, just doesn't fly with me at all, because we are not seeing the series thru his eyes, only his perspective. On top of that, the doorbell rang and within a second, the show ended. That's a heck of a shot, from across the room and he would have had time to hear the gunshot. Besides, most of their execution killings are done at close range, to prevent msitakes.

Personally, I think this was just a flat cop out by Chase. He couldn't decide how to end it, so he just didn't. He just stopped filming. He could have just killed Phil last week and saved and us an episode and and hr of our time.

[Shakhari]

Well, I guess it was a good thing I was planning to cancel my season pass after this episode anyway ...

I would have been perfectly fine with the show ending with the family sitting around the table, fading to black while the music played over the credits. The way this season had played out, I wasn't expecting some big, final and definitive resolution.

But that abrupt, pull-the-plug black screen ... that's just cheap, pretentious, art-house bulls**t.

[MasterOfPuppets]

Doubt it.....by the time the sound of the shot reaches his ears, and before his brain has a chance to process and interpret the sound, he would already be dead. If you are shot in the head, your brain wouldn't have had a chance to process the information before your brain is scrambled to the point of being non-functioning. You only hear something because your brain processed it.....if your brain is destroyed before it processes what the ear drum picked up, then it wouldn't be heard.

I agree that if that is what Chase was trying to portray, we should have gone black with the sound of a gunshot, and as I said before, maybe a voice over by Tony with "You never see it coming"

If he'd shot Tony point blank, with a sawed off shotgun, I suppose that perhaps this could be true.
If Tony was shot at the end at all...since there was no gun in the final shot anywhere else, I have trouble believing that any other method would have immediately stopped his brain function...even with the shotgun, unless it was pressed directly against his head, likely would have had a shot ring out before it made it to Tony's brain.
"Leaving it open to interpretation" is absolutely a cop out. Overly pretentious people will go around with their own "brilliant" conclusions as to what happened to dazzle everyone with this genius insight. For all we know, it was David Hasselhoff that came through the door and stood in front of Tony.
There's absolutely no point in telling a story that has no ending.

[Dawghows]

I'm astounded at the number of people who think Chase "couldn't decide" how to end this. He did decide how to end it. He just didn't decide to end it the way people would have expected him to. I don't have any inside knowledge about what's going on in his mind, of course, but the idea that he just reached a point and said, "Aww screw it...I don't know what to do here, so let's just stop the camera and call it quits," is totally absurd.

[MasterOfPuppets]

Here's (http://www.deadlinehollywooddaily.com/thats-what-we-were-waiting-for-angry-fans-crash-hbo-website/) a fairly accurate summary of how I feel.

Word on the street is that Chase actually shot 3 different endings. Whether those appear on the final DVD set or were just to ensure secrecy remains to be seen...but I'm guessing either of the other 2 would be much more interesting.

Here's some fun that has allegedly been circulating on the HBO message forums:
"I tried to post this on the forum; however, my internet is lame here at work, anyway... posted at the HBO boards:

"So here is what I found out. The guy at the bar is also credited as Nikki Leotardo. The same actor played him in the first part of season 6 during a brief sit down concerning the future of Vito. That wasn't that long ago. Apparently, he is the nephew of Phil. Phil's brother Nikki Senior was killed in 1976 in a car accident. Absolutely Genius!!!! David Chase is truly rewarding the true fans who pay attention to detail.

So the point would have been that life continues and we may never know the end of the Sopranos. But if you pay attention to the history, you will find that all the answers lie in the characters in the restaurant. The trucker was the brother of the guy who was robbed by Christopher in Season 2. Remember the DVD players? The trucker had to identify the body. The boy scouts were in the train store and the black guys at the end were the ones who tried to kill Tony and only clipped him in the ear (was that season 2 or 3?)."

And...the problem (http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/111-06092007-1360360.html) with that theory.

[ToddAtl]

There's always room for one more opinion right?

To me the finale was just "ok." My take is that tony survived and that the family simply had dinner and their lives continued on like they have these past seasons. This would be perfectly acceptable and fitting ending from where I sit.

Where I take issue is why Chase intentionally created such ambiguity in what actually happened. The last few minutes of the show and the building tension were great. It allowed us as viewers to see the world as Tony has to. You never know if there is a gunman coming and the simplest family meal at a restaurant is dangerous. I think a simple fade to black with the family all together would have been a great ending. Even doing a quick cut to black of everyone sitting at the table together would have been OK, at least we wouldn't all have been spending 12 pages arguing if Tony got whacked.

I wonder how all the suits at HBO are feeling today?

[brermike]

Obviously, the ending was controversial, but insulting people for liking it or disliking it is ridiculous. I don't need people to tell me that it was good or bad, I can make up my own mind. I liked the ending. I have my own opinion on what it means and I don't feel like that makes me pretentious because I thought it was a good ending to the show. I don't think you are a hater if you disagree. I just don't get why only one opinion can ever be right. I also don't think the intention of the scene really matters, but rather what each individual gets from it. For me, the quick cut to black was Tony being shot. He would not have heard a gunshot, or seen a gun, if he was surprised and shot in the side of the head (from the bathroom). Was this intended? I don't know but that's what I took from it and expected based on the initial episode of the season with Tony and Bobby talking about death. It was quick, abrupt, quiet, and final. To me, that signifies an immediate death.

[pendragn]

The guy at the bar was "guy at bar in members only jacket" in the credits, wasn't he?

I feel like the ending was one of those "Choose your own adventure" books I read in the 5th grade.

tk

[catzed]

I'm just thankful all those years of wondering what happened to Hunter were answered......................NOT!

[Sopranoman]

To all that hated the end and think they got cheated....

I can not wait for the "finale" of LOST and hear what you haters think of that! :p

[marksman]

Well, I guess it was a good thing I was planning to cancel my season pass after this episode anyway ...

A real fan.. :)

[Rob Helmerichs]

And...the problem (http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/111-06092007-1360360.html) with that theory.
Heh.

Yeah, just a TEENSY problem there! :D

Looks like we're not the only ones prone to over-thinking TV shows!

[Tivo_60]

And let's not forget that there is now a new "catch phrase" :

"have another onion ring"

[TeighVaux]

Phil got killed right in front of his family, babies, etc.

Good point! Scratch that theory!:)

[pendragn]

Good point! Scratch that theory!:)
I thought the families were immune from being killed, not from being witness to a killing.

tk

[Shakhari]

A real fan.. :)

The series was ending. Why would I need to keep the season pass?

[maineman]

I felt like this final episode really gave us alot of what the show was about through years and gave resolution to alot of threads. It included everyone still left kicking except for Melfi and let us know where AJ's and Meadow's lives are heading while wrapping up the AJ depressed thread. We got resolution to the NY/NJ war, Junior and Paulie's intentions. The cat and Paulie brought back some quirkiness that began in the first show with the ducks.

I, for one, did not want to see Tony get whacked. Part of what I loved about the show was how smart he could be at times and how at other times he would do stupid and violent things. I was hoping for him taking the smart way out of his problems with NY and that is what happened.

The final scene was great. Very tense. I think that trying to quess what happened is missing the point, it doesnt matter if T got shot or if life goes on because we will never know. This was a series finale, not an ending to this show. An ending is very different. You expect endings in books and movies but series are different. I think Chase gave us the ending no one was expecting and I am in the brilliant camp.

[snowjay]

BTW, someone before said that the last thing we saw was Meadow coming thru the door then BLACK.

I just rewatched the ending and we see Meadow opening the door, the bell ring, then Tonys face, then BLACK.

So when the show stopped we were not viewing from Tonys perspective, we were viewing from the corner of the bar towards the table.

[bruab]

I haven't read all the posts, and I don't care to speculate on David Chase's intentions ... but that ending sucked. Pure and simple. I don't watch HBO to re-capture the joy of a "Choose Your Own Adventure" book. But it's pretty much what I expected after the last several wishy-washy years.

Years 1-3 were classic. After that, they might as well have been on NBC.

[Regina]

Since the thread is tagged as spoilers



Was the suv over the head really necessary.


That's what you get for dissing pharmacists!
(Did I mention I am a pharmacist :D )

[busyba]

No, it means he conveyed the ending perfectly. Tony will live in fear the rest of his life, whether that be ten seconds or ten years.

Whether he lives ten seconds or ten years doesn't matter for the story.

I'm with Rob on this one.

All of that tension that was built up in the final scene was to make us feel the same kind of paranoia and dread that Tony will always have to live with.

I don't think that it's a "Lady or Tiger" ending; Tony doesn't get whacked, it's just life goes on. But that life will always have that tension. A fade-to-black ending would allow that tension to dissapate. By abrubtly ending the show, he ends the story while maintaining that tension.

I think it was well done, and I'm unlikely to be any kind of apologist since I have vowed that if I ever met J.J. Abrams I would kick him in the nuts after wasting five years of my life on "Alias". Now if you want to complain about a series finale, that's the one to complain about. This one doesn't even come close to that level of suckitude.


BTW... I wonder if there's any significance in all the various song titles (and not just "Don't Stop Believing") that were visible in the jukebox that Tony was looking at:

"Somewhere In The Night"
"Those Were The Days"
"Only The Strong Survive"
"Victim of Love"
"Who Will You Run To?"
"I've Gotta Be Me"
"This Lonely Place"

[Turtleboy]

Wow, some of these theories are ridiculous and absurd. For a moment I thought I was in the Lost thread.

[Dnamertz]

Wow, some of these theories are ridiculous and absurd. For a moment I thought I was in the Lost thread.

If Lost has a "cut to black" ending I'll really be pissed.

To all those people defending this Sopranos ending by saying it was good because it was left up to our imagination to explain what happened, would you watch movies that ended that way? Star Wars could've ended with Luke about to fire at the Death Star but just before, the screen could've gone black and then the credits rolled...that would've been great, right? We decide whether Luke lives or dies...life goes on for he Rebels and the Empire, right?

[busyba]

You know, if anyone should be pissed off about David Chase's attitude towards them, it shouldn't be TV viewers, it should be women drivers. They don't really aquit themselves well in this episode.

First you have Phil's wife failing to grasp the subtle nuances that seperate "Park" from "Drive", and then you have Meadow unable to parallel park a car in a space that was big enough to easily fit a pair of SUVs. Wow.

[busyba]

To all those people defending this Sopranos ending by saying it was good because it was left up to our imagination to explain what happened, would you watch movies that ended that way? Star Wars could've ended with Luke about to fire at the Death Star but just before, the screen could've gone black and then the credits rolled...that would've been great, right? We decide whether Luke lives or dies...life goes on for he Rebels and the Empire, right?
Personally, I don't believe anything is being left to our imagination. There's no whacking; it wouldn't make any sense in the overall context.

But I do want to say however that your analogies are poor since movie storytelling and television storytelling are two completely different beasts.

(and that's not even getting into the discussion of how analogy-based arguments are inherently weak ones anyway... ;))

[walkerjs]

Heh, this ending is generating controversy in the "WTH did Don Mclean mean by that American Pie song" category rather than the Seinfeld ending. Here, it's WTF was Chase thinking with that?

I'm firmly in the 'audience was whacked' interpretation. That's what I told my wife shortly after the show ended, and after thinking about it it's a perfectly logical, and I'll even say somewhat brilliant way to convey that we aren't part of The Sopranos lives anymore.

Until the movie that is, when we all come back as the Zombie Audience.

[jradosh]

I watched the ending scene again.

The audience wasn't whacked, and neither were the Sopranos.

Chase ended the series in the "rip the band-aid off quickly" school of thought. He toyed with our emotions by letting us worry, and then ended the series. That's it.

Nothing I saw suggested anyone getting whacked (upon re-watching).

[snowjay]

I watched the ending scene again.

The audience wasn't whacked, and neither were the Sopranos.

Chase ended the series in the "rip the band-aid off quickly" school of thought. He toyed with our emotions by letting us worry, and then ended the series. That's it.

Nothing I saw suggested anyone getting whacked (upon re-watching).

Well by ripping the band-aid off quickly he essentially whacked us. Not literally but figuratively. No one shot a bullet at us but we no longer have that looking glass into their lives. It's not that we didn't see the bullet coming, we never saw the end coming.

[Jeeters]

My interpretation of the ending is that life goes on for Tony as it always had. He'll always be looking over his shoulder, he'll always beat the rap. That's sort of my take, too.

That end scene was very tense, very anxious.

They kept having Tony checking the door, even after Carm shows. He's continually checking out the guy at the counter. And *we're* checking out the guy at the counter. He's checking out the two black teens that come in. And *we're* checking out the two black kids. The counter guy gets up, and Tony's radar goes to defcon 4. So does ours.

While all this is going on, he's trying to hold conversation, joke with his wife, etc.

I think the ending was to try and get us to feel what Tony's day-to-day is like... what caused him to have those anxiety attacks that had him originally seek out Dr. Melfi. This end scene was to get us to realize... that those two tense minutes we watched, waiting/dreading something to happen.... that's how Tony feels every... waking... second.

[mitchb2]

So when the show stopped we were not viewing from Tonys perspective, we were viewing from the corner of the bar towards the table.

Well, you've thought about it more than Chase did, may he BIH.

[zalusky]

You guys!.

If the ending was changed simply by removing the 10 seconds or so of black and they had happy go lucky music, it would have been like any other season ender.

In all the other ones they ended with family having some sort of meal together. This ended the same way. I even wonder if the actors themselves knew any different.

Everybody is saying he was about to get whacked. As was mentioned he is always at risk of getting whacked. That his life.

So we all get 10 seconds of quiet to think about the show.

As I said if they had played pretty music, and had no blackout would you be talking different?

[deezel629]

I thought the ending was OK. Not great, not awful, just OK. I don't think Tony got clipped. I think people are reading into it too much. So, I'm in the "life goes on" camp. Chase showed us what we needed to see, then pulled the plug.

The Seinfeld references made me think of something. Pretty ironic that Jerry, George, Elaine, and Kramer end up in jail and the Sopranos end up in a diner.

[RayChuang88]

I think the big gripe about the ending was how it was so sudden.

Chase should have set up a camera shot pulling back from the Sopranos' table to a street scene outside the diner. That would give it a "life goes on" quality and we can still argue ad nauseum whether Tony Soprano lived or not. ;)

[Crash_Corrigan]

I liked the ending...life goes on and so does the paranoia for being a mob boss. Click. It's over. Go home.

But, an Animal House ending would have been better.

A portrait of Tony with the caption "Died on the toilet at his latest Hungarian or Latvian girlfriend's apartment in 2010".

A portrait of Carmela with the caption "Moved to Italy to find the true love of her life Furio. Died in a Vespa accident in Naples in 2014 while checking out a hot young priest walking on the street. Never found Furio".

A portrait of Meadow with the caption "Finished law school, but never took the bar exam. Got married. Got pregnant and stayed home to raise her kids in the Jersey burbs just like her mom."

A portrait of AJ with the caption "Died of autoerotic asphyxtiation in his closet after his latest hot girlfriend dumped him and he totalled the BMW M3 in 2008. Never joined the army. Never became a helicopter pilot. Never worked for the CIA. Never owned a club."

A portrait of Janet with the caption "Choked on a forkful of baked Ziti in 2009. Never found Uncle Juniors buried cash".

A portrait of Uncle Junior with the caption "Never recovered from his dementia. Died in his sleep in the nursing home in 2014."

A portrait of Sil with the caption "Recovered from his wounds. Opened a chain of Bada Bing's Men's Clubs worldwide rivaling Scores. Took Bada Bing's public. BBMC now traded on the NYSE.

A portrait of the cat with the caption "The reincarnated spirt of Christopher snuck into Paulie's apartment at night and sat on Paulie's face while he slept, smothering Paulie in July 2007 as payback for doing donuts on his lawn and trashing all his expensive landscaping. The cat then lived out the rest of its days in contentment catching mice at the Pork Store and getting high on catnip whenever it could".

THE END

Then again, maybe a Futurama ending...fastforward into the 33rd century and find the disembodied head of Tony Soprano in a jar still running the Jersey mob in space, and Artie's head in a jar still cooking in the kitchen at Vesuvios.

[madscientist]

Just watched tonight, since my DVR screwed up the recording last night.

I liked the ending a lot. It wasn't what I expected, but that's OK. I really disagree with all the "someone got whacked" theories: Tony definitely didn't get whacked and the "audience got whacked" is just too bizarre for me--that really would be pretentious art-house bullsh*t.

I agree with busyba etc.: Tony's life went on, just as it had been going before; he's got an indictment coming up (or not), AJ's whining about this or that, Meadow's getting married, Carm's working on her houses, etc. Maybe he gets killed that evening, maybe next week, maybe never. There's no big ending, no come-uppance, no good wins over evil, no bomb, no whacking. The show is just... over.

I like it, and I agree that this is very fitting for this show, and I agree that this show has never really been about the whacking.

As for the chop to black, I will admit that for a split second I thought of some kind of technical fault, then I was on the edge waiting to hear something... but when the credits rolled I was fine with it.

[Dnamertz]

But I do want to say however that your analogies are poor since movie storytelling and television storytelling are two completely different beasts.

Doesn't matter if they are different beasts, ending an entire series (or movie) by leaving the audience guessing is poor storytelling. I have no problem if Chase wanted to portray a "life goes on message", but to make it look like something else might happen, then have Tony look up as if something might happen, then leave us all guessing is not a "life goes on message"...its the "WTF" message which is what 99% of the audience said as they watched it. If he would've had Meadow sit down and then we watch them all sitting together, he would've conveyed the "life goes on message" much better. But by keeping us all in the dark, he doesn't appear to be good at getting his message across. Heck, people can't even agree if someone got whacked or they're just going on with life. So, he was either attempting to confuse us/leave us guessing (which is poor storytelling) or he's not good at getting his message across.

(and that's not even getting into the discussion of how analogy-based arguments are inherently weak ones anyway... ;))

Not if the analogy is good.

[DCIFRTHS]

I liked the ending...life goes on and so does the paranoia for being a mob boss. Click. It's over. Go home.

But, an Animal House ending would have been better.

A portrait of Tony with the caption "Died on the toilet at his latest Hungarian or Latvian girlfriend's apartment in 2010".

A portrait of Carmela with the caption "Moved to Italy to find the true love of her life Furio. Died in a Vespa accident in Naples in 2014. Never found Furio".

A portrait of Meadow with the caption "Finished law school, but never took the bar exam. Got married. Got pregnant and stayed home to raise her kids in the Jersey burbs."

A portrait of AJ with the caption "Died of autoerotic asphyxtiation in his closet after his latest hot girlfriend dumped him and he totalled the BMW M3 in 2008. Never joined the army. Never became a helicopter pilot. Never worked for the CIA. Never owned a club."

A portrait of Janet with the caption "Choked on a forkful of baked Ziti in 2009. Never found Uncle Juniors buried cash".

A portrait of Uncle Junior with the caption "Never recovered from his dementia. Died in his sleep in the nursing home in 2014."

A portrait of Sil with the caption "Recovered from his wounds. Opened a chain of Bada Bing's Men's Clubs worldwide rivaling Scores. Took Bada Bing's public. BBMC now traded on the NYSE.

A portrait of the cat with the caption "The reincarnated spirt of Christopher snuck into Paulie's apartment at night and sat on Paulie's face while he slept, smothering Paulie in July 2007 as payback for doing donuts on his lawn and trashing all his expensive landscaping. The cat then lived out the rest of its days in contentment catching mice at the Pork Store and getting high on catnip whenever it could".

THE END

Then again, maybe a Futurama ending...fastforward into the 33rd century and find the disembodied head of Tony Soprano in a jar still running the Jersey mob in space, and Artie's head in a jar still cooking in the kitchen at Vesuvios.

I like your ending the best :) Very entertaining :up:

[DCIFRTHS]

I believe Paulie summed it up for all the "Tony got killed, and it was "genious" the way David Chase did it fans... :rolleyes:

Pauli Gualtieri aka Paulie Walnuts put his cigar-like index finger on the director’s ultimate goal in dropping another plot line that will dangle forever: the fate of a Russian mobster who escaped a whacking.

“He wanted the audience just to suffer,” he said. (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/10/arts/television/10cart.html?pagewanted=all)

[Royster]

Most of you are missing the point completely. To you this show is all about plot -- who got whacked, who did the whacking, who moved up. This show has never been about the plot, it has always been a character study of the two families -- Tony's family and Tony's Family.

This is made clear from all of the references to the ducks in the pond at the beginning of the show. It wasn;t about the frigging ducks. It was about Tony's panic attacks. After years of therapy, most of which you were hostile to, Melfi tells Tony "I can't help you." At the end of the show Tony is exactly where he was at the beginning. In most worthwhile stories, the hero grows in some way during the course of the story. The character at the end is different in some fundamental way than the one at the begining. Tony isn't. He hasn't grown a bit. Melfi was absolutely right. She can't help him. Not because he's a psychpath, but because he won't grow.

And we actually did get a lot of closure for the main character developments arcs.

Tony's goal has been to try to get his kids out of the Family. He wanted them to have a life that wasn't dependent on the mob. We see that he failed with Meadow. She was parroting the mob wife's complaint about being persecuted by the FBI. He had a chance with AJ. He should have pushed that kid into the army and let him have his own life. Instead he doomed him to a life of more dependance on Tony by being too chicken to let the kid take charge.

In the final scene, it didn;t matter if in the next second the man came out of the bathroom shooting, or the guy by the jukebox triggered a suicide bomb or Meadow came in and sat down to dinner next to her dad. The story of these characters is over. They are condemned to live as themselves because they can't or won't change.

I myself was at the end of my seat for most of the movie because I expected something sudden to happen. Chase instilled in me the kind of jumpy nervousness that Tony was feeling at the diner when every time the bell on the door rang, he looked up to see if it was his turn. That, my friends, is filmmaking. and it's why I gave the episode an A in the Rate It thread. I don't need a Sopranos Movie. I can't imagine what story is left to tell.

I'm sorry if you got fooled into thinking this was about the mob and the schemes and who got whacked. If that were me, I might feel as if I had wasted a lot of time on this series.

[disco]

Chase talks (http://blog.nj.com/alltv/2007/06/david_chase_speaks.html):
"I have no interest in explaining, defending, reinterpreting, or adding to what is there," he says of the final scene.

"No one was trying to be audacious, honest to God," he adds. "We did what we thought we had to do. No one was trying to blow people's minds, or thinking, 'Wow, this'll (tick) them off.' People get the impression that you're trying to (mess) with them and it's not true. You're trying to entertain them."

In that scene, mob boss Tony Soprano waited at a Bloomfield ice cream parlor for his family to arrive, one by one. What was a seemingly benign family outing was shot and cut as the preamble to a tragedy, with Tony suspiciously eyeing one patron after another, the camera dwelling a little too long on Meadow's parallel parking and a man in a Members Only jacket's walk to the men's room. Just as the tension had been ratched up to unbearable levels, the series cut to black in mid-scene (and mid song) with no resolution.

"Anybody who wants to watch it, it's all there," says Chase, 61, who based the series in general (and Tony's relationship with mother Livia specifically) on his North Caldwell childhood.

Some fans have already assumed that the ambiguous ending was Chase setting up the oft-rumored "Sopranos" movie, but that doesn't seem to be in the cards.

"I don't think about (a movie) much," he says. "I never say never. An idea could pop into my head where I would go, 'Wow, that would make a great movie,' but I doubt it.

"I'm not being coy," he adds. "If something appeared that really made a good 'Sopranos' movie and you could invest in it and everybody else wanted to do it, I would do it. But I think we've kind of said it and done it."

[Sopranoman]

Most of you are missing the point completely. To you this show is all about plot -- who got whacked, who did the whacking, who moved up. This show has never been about the plot, it has always been a character study of the two families -- Tony's family and Tony's Family.

This is made clear from all of the references to the ducks in the pond at the beginning of the show. It wasn;t about the frigging ducks. It was about Tony's panic attacks. After years of therapy, most of which you were hostile to, Melfi tells Tony "I can't help you." At the end of the show Tony is exactly where he was at the beginning. In most worthwhile stories, the hero grows in some way during the course of the story. The character at the end is different in some fundamental way than the one at the begining. Tony isn't. He hasn't grown a bit. Melfi was absolutely right. She can't help him. Not because he's a psychpath, but because he won't grow.

And we actually did get a lot of closure for the main character developments arcs.

Tony's goal has been to try to get his kids out of the Family. He wanted them to have a life that wasn't dependent on the mob. We see that he failed with Meadow. She was parroting the mob wife's complaint about being persecuted by the FBI. He had a chance with AJ. He should have pushed that kid into the army and let him have his own life. Instead he doomed him to a life of more dependance on Tony by being too chicken to let the kid take charge.

In the final scene, it didn;t matter if in the next second the man came out of the bathroom shooting, or the guy by the jukebox triggered a suicide bomb or Meadow came in and sat down to dinner next to her dad. The story of these characters is over. They are condemned to live as themselves because they can't or won't change.

I myself was at the end of my seat for most of the movie because I expected something sudden to happen. Chase instilled in me the kind of jumpy nervousness that Tony was feeling at the diner when every time the bell on the door rang, he looked up to see if it was his turn. That, my friends, is filmmaking. and it's why I gave the episode an A in the Rate It thread. I don't need a Sopranos Movie. I can't imagine what story is left to tell.

I'm sorry if you got fooled into thinking this was about the mob and the schemes and who got whacked. If that were me, I might feel as if I had wasted a lot of time on this series.

:up: :up: :up: :up:

[Rob Helmerichs]

Very interesting that the actor who plays Paulie Walnuts claims that Chase just wants to make the audience suffer......he wants us to be pissed off and definitely did that to a lot of the audience.
You're reading an awful lot into an offhand remark. Probably all he meant by that was "He didn't want the audience to know what had happened to the Russian."

[dolfer]

It was definitely a challenging ending. However, I think it was a good one. It makes you think a little. Interpret. Imagine.

And while the use of "Don't Stop Believing" has been ridiculed by some as a random, "let's use a stupid and insulting song", in-joke by Chase, I don't think he would stoop that low.

I think the key sentiment that he wanted to convey was:

"Oh, the movie never ends
It goes on and on and on and on"

Thus, Tony and the rest of the crew's lives go on and on and on.... However, I think if he listened long enough, he could have found a better song that conveys the same! ;)

It seems like most people want a Six Feet Under style ending. I have not searched yet, but I am curious whether or not the final Six Feet Under thread generated as many posts as this one will. Since everything was resolved with extreme prejudice, I am willing to bet not.

My only problems with the finale was that it was only an hour and that more people didn't get killed! Hell, the season finale of The Shield got the 90 minute treatment!

I was hoping for the return of Furio! He would never have botched the hit on Phil.

[jradford]

I've decided, on a 2nd and 3rd viewing, that I really liked the ending. I'm leaning towards the "brilliant" camp. I only wish that instead of cutting to black silence, it had cut to black with "Don't stop believin" continuing to play in the background. It ruined a big moment for the audience. In almost every series finale, a moment of sadness and relief accompanies the final seconds and rolling of credits. Instead, that moment was replaced with, "Is it over? I think it's over. Did my cable go out?"

[Rob Helmerichs]

I only wish that instead of cutting to black silence, it had cut to black with "Don't stop believin" continuing to play in the background. It ruined a big moment for the audience. In almost every series finale, a moment of sadness and relief accompanies the final seconds and rolling of credits. Instead, that moment was replaced with, "Is it over? I think it's over. Did my cable go out?"
But I think the problem with this and similar suggestions is that it would undercut the almost overwhelming sense of menace that had been growing through that whole last scene. The juxtaposition of ordinary family life and impending doom is what establishes how Tony's life is going to go from now on, and having a nice, safe, fade-to-black ending would have undermined that. It was very unsettling, and it should have been.

The more I think about it, the more perfect I think it was.

[jradford]

But I think the problem with this and similar suggestions is that it would undercut the almost overwhelming sense of menace that had been growing through that whole last scene. The juxtaposition of ordinary family life and impending doom is what establishes how Tony's life is going to go from now on, and having a nice, safe, fade-to-black ending would have undermined that. It was very unsettling, and it should have been.

The more I think about it, the more perfect I think it was.
Believe me, I agree. The ending gets better and better on repeated viewings, but I don't think "my cable is out" should have entered anyone in the audience's mind on 1st viewing. Maybe run the credits a little quicker, I don't know. It seemed like there was a lengthy pause of silence and black prior to any credits where the audience actually WAS given a moment to let it all sink in, but instead of enjoying that moment, it felt like the end of "The Truman Show" where the plug gets pulled and we all start hitting our TV's.

So my only problem is that I refuse to believe that Chase wanted people to think their cable went out, and, unfortunately, it was impossible not to have that thought creep in your head. I'm not a filmmaker so I hate saying, "He should have done...," but I am still frustrated that he didn't find a way to end it suddenly where everyone actually knew it had ended suddenly.

[InterMurph]

Here's the major problem I had with the finale.

It was filmed at Holsten's (http://www.holstens.com/), in Bloomfield, NJ. Tony ordered onion rings "for the table".

Yet onion rings are not on the menu at Holsten's! Check out the menu at http://www.holstens.com/page0004.html, but here's the proof:
http://www.holstens.com/img00088.gif
French fries? Yes. Onion rings? No!

What is David Chase trying to pull here? What is the symbolism of the onion rings? Does it prove that the final scene is a dream, since dreamland is the only place where one can order onion rings at Holsten's?

[pgogborn]

If Tony orders onion rings you go and find onion rings even if they are not on the menu.

[jradosh]

They were pretty crappy onion rings at that! Not real ones, but clearly the type made from onion bits that are pressed and formed into rings. Nope... not a good ending at all :mad:

[SnakeEyes]

Onion Rings actually are on the menu, just not listed online. They used to be on the specials menu. I know people that have been there many times over the years.

http://offthebroiler.wordpress.com/2007/06/11/nj-dining-holstens/

[markymark_ctown]

Here's the major problem I had with the finale.

What is David Chase trying to pull here? What is the symbolism of the onion rings? Does it prove that the final scene is a dream, since dreamland is the only place where one can order onion rings at Holsten's?


they represent the circle of life, and the ketchup they are dipped into symbolize the blood on tony's hands.

further proof of chase's brilliance :)

[ravonaf]

Brilliant ending. The show has never been about the mob. If that's what you thought you probably hated the ending. The mob story line is just the pretty wrapping paper they are using. What this series is really about is human nature, good and evil, temptation and society. It's a metaphor for the average American.

From the very beginning this is Tony telling his story to Dr. Melphi. The Dr. represents the audience and at the end the audience is supposed to see this ugly behavior for what it is just as the Dr does. Tony truly is evil and represents the evil in all of us. How many people would do what he did if they had the power and could get away with it? Lots I bet. Tony represents the average American taken to their natural conclusion. He has no self control and is completely self centered to the point he would kill even his own family. He once said he thought of Chris as a son. When someone he loved became difficult he took the easy way out and tossed him away, just like he did the cleaver cup. Tony's hypocrisy knows now bounds. When confronted with his own gambling addiction he condemns Chris for his own. Every season he physically gets fatter and fatter and more and more selfish.

All the people surrounding him are very similar. Carmella knows he's evil and even said so many times. In the end she sold her soul and became his partner in crime. AJ represents the path Tony followed. AJ suffered from depression and blackouts just like Tony. AJ had a chance to change his life and to try to do good with it. He went through a transformation and was reborn. In the end he gave in to temptation just like his father. Meadow was the out, but in the end what does she do? She dedicated her life to protecting evil people just like her father. She also sells out for a fat paycheck.

After all is said and done Tony created a world in which he sees death around every corner. As in the real world you reap what you sow. A nice fade to black would represent a happy ending. Tony's ending is not happy. Cutting it off keeps the suspense alive and allows us to imagine just for a second what this kind of life might be like. It creates an exclamation point at the end of the story. The emotion you felt sticks with you for awhile. You are left not knowing whats going to happen. That's Tony's reward for the life he has lived. Never knowing what's going to happen.


I also thought introducing each character into the diner one at a time was a way of each of them coming onto the stage one by one and taking a bow.

[Marco]

they represent the circle of life, and the ketchup they are dipped into symbolize the blood on tony's hands.

further proof of chase's brilliance :)

post of the day :)

[Rkkeller]

Possibly the worst finale I have ever seen. Just glad its over so I can cancel HBO. :up: Slow dull and boring like most of the episodes were. I kept watching as I hoped it would get better but it never did. This sorry ending was right on par.

[bruinfan]

Word on the street is that Chase actually shot 3 different endings. Whether those appear on the final DVD set or were just to ensure secrecy remains to be seen...but I'm guessing either of the other 2 would be much more interesting.
yeah...

he had one ending, where it cut to red abruptly

and another where it cut to green.


credit: eric norris

[Dawghows]

They were pretty crappy onion rings at that! Not real ones, but clearly the type made from onion bits that are pressed and formed into rings. Nope... not a good ending at all :mad:
BLASPHEMY!! Those fake ones are the only kind of onion rings I will eat. I LOVE those things. :)

[markymark_ctown]

yeah...

he had one ending, where it cut to red abruptly

and another where it cut to green.


credit: eric norris


i think fred was joking about that... :D

[Bananfish]

It seems like most people want a Six Feet Under style ending. I have not searched yet, but I am curious whether or not the final Six Feet Under thread generated as many posts as this one will. Since everything was resolved with extreme prejudice, I am willing to bet not.


Well, come on, Six Feet Under wasn't nearly the cultural phenomenon that The Sopranos was. It would have been a tremendous surprise if the SFU finale generated even a significant fraction of the viewership and buzz of The Sopranos finale, regardless of how resolved things were.

[TomK]

Here's an interview with David Chase:

http://blog.nj.com/alltv/2007/06/david_chase_speaks.html

[Marco]

It seems like most people want a Six Feet Under style ending. I have not searched yet, but I am curious whether or not the final Six Feet Under thread generated as many posts as this one will.

http://archive2.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=255592

276 posts

[markymark_ctown]

Here's an interview with David Chase:

http://blog.nj.com/alltv/2007/06/david_chase_speaks.html


great article...the best i've seen yet. alan sepinwall is my favorite tv writer, by far. :up:

thanks for posting the link!

[Bananfish]

yeah...

he had one ending, where it cut to red abruptly

and another where it cut to green.


I heard there was an ending where Tony punched in "Renegade" by Styx on the jukebox, and another with "Hot Blooded" by Foreigner. (They decided not to even film the "Turn Me Loose" ending that Chase considered.)

[Rob Helmerichs]

So my only problem is that I refuse to believe that Chase wanted people to think their cable went out, and, unfortunately, it was impossible not to have that thought creep in your head. I'm not a filmmaker so I hate saying, "He should have done...," but I am still frustrated that he didn't find a way to end it suddenly where everyone actually knew it had ended suddenly.
But that moment of shock and panic that we all felt was perfect. Sure, it was manipulative as hell, but it got the right jolt into our systems...

[cheesesteak]

But that moment of shock and panic that we all felt was perfect. Sure, it was manipulative as hell, but it got the right jolt into our systems...
He could have ended the series any way he wanted to but he didn't have to make me scramble around, looking for the @!#$%^* remote for 10-15 seconds. Two days later and I'd like to jolt him.

[Bananfish]

But that moment of shock and panic that we all felt was perfect. Sure, it was manipulative as hell, but it got the right jolt into our systems...

Gee, now I feel robbed because I didn't have a moment of shock and panic. I didn't fumble around for the remote - I felt pretty confident that that was just the chosen ending. About 10 seconds before, my wife said in a panicky voice "he's gonna get whacked" and I said "nope, they just want you to think he's gonna get whacked." It was classic bait-and-switch.

I don't really feel robbed by the ending, because to be honest, I felt like the last 3 seasons or so were a bit of a petering out of the show. Most of the major highlights of this show came in the first 3 seasons or so. After that, the spark just wasn't quite there like it had been.

[angel35]

Exactly what I was thinking.

I think the point they were trying to make was that they wanted the audience to believe that something was about to happen.

So bad.

Yes this is Tonys life looking at enery one he sees?Is this going to be it? :(

[midas]

The emperor has no clothes.

[Dignan]

Loved the ending, loved that people hated it.

[CharlieW]

Possibly the worst finale I have ever seen. Just glad its over so I can cancel HBO. :up: Slow dull and boring like most of the episodes were. I kept watching as I hoped it would get better but it never did. This sorry ending was right on par.


Why would you continue paying for HBO if this was the only series that you watched and you felt like you were only watching it hoping that it would get better?

How many seasons have you been hanging on?

[dolfer]

http://archive2.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=255592

276 posts

thanks Marco!

also, I am glad someone was brave enough to bring up the onion rings! They looked like run-of-the-mill Ore-Idas!!!!

[SnakeEyes]

HBO.com changed the last sentence in the episode description.

From: "Finally parking the car, Meadow runs inside to join her family, just in time for... "

To: "just in time for dinner."

Take that however you will.

[jradford]

Loved the ending, loved that people hated it.
:confused: Why?

[walkerjs]

Onion Rings actually are on the menu, just not listed online. They used to be on the specials menu. I know people that have been there many times over the years.

http://offthebroiler.wordpress.com/2007/06/11/nj-dining-holstens/

There's a place in south Jersey, ironically called Sopranos (yeah, really!) that doesn't have fries on the take-out menu. Yet you can ask for fries and get them. So perhaps a menu oversight. Don't remember if they have onion rings on the menu, but they probably put them on the menu since. They could call them Sopranos "Whack-out-black-out rings"!

[bareyb]

Here's my spinoff or Movie theory (whichever comes first):

They wanted to kill Tony in front of his family. Meadow see's the whole thing and becomes a District Attorney and goes after the mafia as a result.

My feeling is they left it open ended for a reason. Money. Just in case there might be a way to wring a few more dollars out of the franchise. The final chapter could be a Movie. If there's not enough residual interest then perhaps a spinoff or a one episode "special finale" on HBO. If that flies then they can sell the DVD. I wouldn't shock me if they put up a website asking fans what ending they'd like to see. :rolleyes:

[Bananfish]

HBO.com changed the last sentence in the episode description.

From: "Finally parking the car, Meadow runs inside to join her family, just in time for... "

To: "just in time for dinner."

Take that however you will.


Interesting. Here's my take: I suspect their original thought was that putting in the ellipsis fit in with the theme that life goes on for the Sopranos but the viewer is simply no longer in on their lives, but after hearing how many people think that the "sudden black screen" meant that Tony got whacked from behind and realizing that the ellipsis could be interpreted as meaning something big happens just as Meadow walks in, they changed it to "for dinner" to more concretely reflect the idea that nothing of importance happens when the screen goes black and life simply goes on for the Sopranos.

[Turtleboy]

Loved the ending, loved that people hated it.

+1.

I love the sense of entitlement people have regarding a TV show, as in "I'm entitled to have closure."

[busyba]

Most of you are missing the point completely. To you this show is all about plot -- who got whacked, who did the whacking, who moved up. This show has never been about the plot, it has always been a character study of the two families -- Tony's family and Tony's Family.

This is made clear from all of the references to the ducks in the pond at the beginning of the show. It wasn;t about the frigging ducks. It was about Tony's panic attacks. After years of therapy, most of which you were hostile to, Melfi tells Tony "I can't help you." At the end of the show Tony is exactly where he was at the beginning. In most worthwhile stories, the hero grows in some way during the course of the story. The character at the end is different in some fundamental way than the one at the begining. Tony isn't. He hasn't grown a bit. Melfi was absolutely right. She can't help him. Not because he's a psychpath, but because he won't grow.

And we actually did get a lot of closure for the main character developments arcs.

Tony's goal has been to try to get his kids out of the Family. He wanted them to have a life that wasn't dependent on the mob. We see that he failed with Meadow. She was parroting the mob wife's complaint about being persecuted by the FBI. He had a chance with AJ. He should have pushed that kid into the army and let him have his own life. Instead he doomed him to a life of more dependance on Tony by being too chicken to let the kid take charge.

In the final scene, it didn;t matter if in the next second the man came out of the bathroom shooting, or the guy by the jukebox triggered a suicide bomb or Meadow came in and sat down to dinner next to her dad. The story of these characters is over. They are condemned to live as themselves because they can't or won't change.

I myself was at the end of my seat for most of the movie because I expected something sudden to happen. Chase instilled in me the kind of jumpy nervousness that Tony was feeling at the diner when every time the bell on the door rang, he looked up to see if it was his turn. That, my friends, is filmmaking. and it's why I gave the episode an A in the Rate It thread. I don't need a Sopranos Movie. I can't imagine what story is left to tell.

I'm sorry if you got fooled into thinking this was about the mob and the schemes and who got whacked. If that were me, I might feel as if I had wasted a lot of time on this series.

Yeah! What he said!!! :)

[CharlieW]

+1.

I love the sense of entitlement people have regarding a TV show, as in "I'm entitled to have closure."


And then allow that to ruin the whole series for them since they didn't get one of the endings they were expecting. I've seen quite a few posts out there on the internet (not just here) about how people feel they've wasted eight years on this show. Huh?

The momentary disappointment that I felt immediately after the show ended disappeared pretty quickly once I allowed it to sink in. Watching it a second and third time, I am convinced that he wanted us to see exactly what it felt like to be Tony Soprano.

We always assumed throughout the run of the series that they would never bump off Tony in mid-series -- without him there is no show and we all knew that. So we never felt too uncomfortable when things got dicey for Tony -- we always had "nothings going to happen to Tony, he's the whole show" swimming in our head as we watched each week. We never really got the feel of what it was like to be Tony Soprano -- until we knew that the series was coming to an end and all bets were now off. We were all expecting something to happen, looking at every shady character in the diner, wondering which one it was going to be -- if any of them. Tony lives like this everyday. Trying to act as though he is holding it together, when inside he is all panic attacks and paranoia. The sudden cut to black was the best way to end that scene. Does Tony get whacked in the diner -- maybe, maybe not. It doesn't matter and it wasn't important because the show is over. But Chase gave us a greater gift by ending it this way -- he let us be Tony Soprano for just a few moments. This ending was nothing short of brilliant.

[busyba]

The emperor has no clothes.
And yet he looks good naked.

[SnakeEyes]

+1.

I love the sense of entitlement people have regarding a TV show, as in "I'm entitled to have closure."

Tony would say "You're entitled to s%!t"

[Dignan]

:confused: Why?

I loved that people hated the ending because I'm a miserable manipulative sociopath beyond redemption. ;)

I knew when I watched it people would be very upset, I'm not happy people are upset, I'm happy Chase decided to go with an unconventional finale. It wasn't going to please everyone, he knew this. He challenged us with something more than a Scarface "say hello to my little friend" shootout.

I also thought

[getbak]

I loved that people hated the ending because I'm a miserable manipulative sociopath beyond redemption.

I knew when I watched it people would be very upset, I'm not happy people are upset, I'm happy Chase decided to go with an unconventional finale. It wasn't going to please everyone, he knew this. He challenged us with something more than a Scarface "say hello to my little friend" shootout.

I also thought
OMG!!! WHAT HAPPENED!?! My internet is broken. I don't understand what just happened.
.
.
.
.
ARGH!
.
.
.
.
I was enjoying your post until you ended it like that...now, I think it was the worst post I ever read. BOO!!!

:D

[DCIFRTHS]

Loved the ending, loved that people hated it.

You rebel :rolleyes:

[BobB]

Count me on the side of those who consider this an absolutely perfect, brilliantly executed ending! And by that I mean not just the cut to black, but the entire final restaurant scene up to and including the cut, an exquisitely crafted exercise in evoking the kind of "is it or isn't it" paranoia that a mob boss like Tony is cursed to live with forever.

It's sad (though not surprising) to see so many react so negatively to the lack of a good old-fashioned comic-book style finale. As several have said above, if that's all you were watching for in this show, you really WERE wasting your time all these years. The Sopranos was so much deeper, so much more than that. My thanks to Chase for delivering an ending that truly did justice to the complexity of the series.

[RayChuang88]

I still however find that the ending was condescending towards its audience because there are better ways to end the show.

Those of you here over 50 years old probably remember The Fugitive, one of the most famous TV shows with lots of tense moments. After four years, this show ended with a dramatic climax at the amusement park, and who could forget the very end when--

Dr. Kimble walks down the steps of the courthouse and sees a police car arrive at the courthouse with its sirens blaring, put a scare into the audience for one last time. That was a perfect coda to a truly landmark TV series.

Chase should have learned from how Roy Huggins wrote The Fugitive, in my humble opinion. It appears from Chase's interview with NJ.com that Chase couldn't figure out how to end The Sopranos and came up with this ending.

[marksman]

I heard there was an ending where Tony punched in "Renegade" by Styx on the jukebox, and another with "Hot Blooded" by Foreigner. (They decided not to even film the "Turn Me Loose" ending that Chase considered.)

Staying Alive was shortly considered, but they felt people would read too much into it, besides Tony not being a BeeGees fan.

[JohnB1000]

Lots of interesting comments here. Just think what this ending did, it created more talk, news items, talk show discussions, and water cooler discussions than anything else I remember. What could be better for creating an impact.

The more I read here and the more I think about it, the more happy I am with the ending and the controversy/impact it has caused.

[bobsbizzy]

John Stewart used the same ending in one of his scits on the Daily Show. :D

Very clever, very funny.

[smickola]

I'm surpised no one's mentioned this, or maybe I just missed it, but the ducks were back! In the next to last scene, as Tony is sweeping up in the backyard, he pauses and looks upward, and you hear what sounded very much to me like ducks quacking. Very fitting...the ducks are flying away, just as his kids are grown and almost gone. (Although of course AJ may never leave, now that I think about it!)

Tony looks upward, and we get a shot looking up at the trees and the sky...very reminiscent of the scenes we got earlier in the season as Tony was pondering his life after the shooting. Only this time instead of the soothing wind rustling through the leaves, we see barren trees and bleak frigid skies...no doubt a reflection of what life holds for Tony.

[Mike20878]

Not last night, but I will cancel today.

I was planning to cancel, but damn Comcast for not having a triple play package that includes the digital channels without the premiums. :(

[unixadm]

Lots of interesting comments here. Just think what this ending did, it created more talk, news items, talk show discussions, and water cooler discussions than anything else I remember. What could be better for creating an impact.

The more I read here and the more I think about it, the more happy I am with the ending and the controversy/impact it has caused.

Just because something causes lots of discussion, news items, etc, doesn't mean it is a good thing.

Someone could do something bad, and it would create lots of talk, news items, talk show discussions and water cooler discussions. Just look at Paris Hilton ;)

If Chase had done an amazing ending that really did finalize the series, I am sure there would be tons of dicussion about that as well.

[jradford]

Just because something causes lots of discussion, news items, etc, doesn't mean it is a good thing.

Someone could do something bad, and it would create lots of talk, news items, talk show discussions and water cooler discussions. Just look at Paris Hilton ;)

If Chase had done an amazing ending that really did finalize the series, I am sure there would be tons of dicussion about that as well.
Either way, it IS amazing that he made an ending that seemingly 50% of the population loves and 50% of the population hates.

[Marco]

I'm surpised no one's mentioned this, or maybe I just missed it, but the ducks were back! In the next to last scene, as Tony is sweeping up in the backyard, he pauses and looks upward, and you hear what sounded very much to me like ducks quacking. Very fitting...the ducks are flying away, just as his kids are grown and almost gone. (Although of course AJ may never leave, now that I think about it!)

Tony looks upward, and we get a shot looking up at the trees and the sky...very reminiscent of the scenes we got earlier in the season as Tony was pondering his life after the shooting. Only this time instead of the soothing wind rustling through the leaves, we see barren trees and bleak frigid skies...no doubt a reflection of what life holds for Tony.

I heard the ducks, and wondered if Chase meant that.

[JohnB1000]

I didn't say it was a good thing (though I think it was). I simply said it's amazing that a TV show, that's on pay cable, could create such a stir.

[bruab]

Sopranos fans - read the product description today on woot.com. (http://woot.com) It's hilarious!


Printed In America

Tommy Baritoni watched the photo print roll out of the HP Photosmart 3210 All in One Printer. Ah, that’s the stuff, he thought, admiring the full-color portrait of his favorite band in all their early-’80s glory, headbands, keytars, and all. They stopped making bands like Journey anymore, but I still believe. Tommy checked his watch and wondered where Marcela, Summer, and T.J. were. They were supposed to meet him here fifteen minutes ago.

Around him, the other customers of the Bloomfield Copy & Print Shop went about their business. They paid only casual attention to Tommy, unaware that here was the man who ran the largest hubcap-fencing ring in East Jersey. Nice little all-in-one printer, scanner, and copier they got here, Tommy mused. Prints without a PC thanks to the memory card reader and PictBridge USB port. Fast, too – 32 ppm black and 31 ppm color. I oughtta get one for Club Fuggetaboutit, have the girls put ‘em on the glass and sell the printouts. He filed the enterprising idea away until next week.

Just then, a guy in a suit stepped through the copy shop door and seemed to look right at Tommy – or did he? For a terrifying second, Tommy wondered if the guy was with the Dotatello family, or maybe was working for those Syrians that Tommy had ratted out to the FBI. As the suit moved up to the counter to pick up a printing order, Tommy tried to shrug off the anxiety that haunted him. No matter how forcefully he commanded his mind to think pleasurably about the HP Photosmart 3210 All in One Printer, he couldn’t shake this cloud of impending doom. He found no comfort in its built-in slide/negative adapter, dust and scratch removal, and advanced copying features. For some reason he couldn’t put his finger on, it felt like everything was about to come to a sudden, inexplicable, unsatisfying end.

Tommy eased a bit as Marcela and T.J. came through the door, the electronic sensor in the door bleeping as they did. Through the plate glass window, he saw Summer by the bicycle rack outside, struggling with the padlock on her bike. “Hey, Dad, want some Funyons?,” T.J. asked, extending the yellow cellophane bag. Tommy plucked out a Funyon, watching Summer finally clasp the padlock shut and walk toward the copy shop door. He pecked Marcela on the cheek and wiped away the stray Funyon crumbs his lips left there. The electronic door sensor bleeped again. Tommy looked up and

[sketcher]

...it felt like everything was about to come to a sudden, inexplicable, unsatisfying end...
And that's exactly what happened.

[busyba]

OMG!!! WHAT HAPPENED!?! My internet is broken. I don't understand what just happened.
I think Dignan just got whacked.


Of course, this being the internet, it's entirely possible he just suddenly stumbled across some porn.... in which case whacking would still be an issue.

[Turtleboy]

I think Dignan just got whacked.

.

No, no, no!

Since we can't read it anymore, we're the ones who got whacked.

Like the Bugblatter beast who is so dumb that if it can't see you, it thinks that you can't see it.

[ravonaf]

I'm surpised no one's mentioned this, or maybe I just missed it, but the ducks were back! In the next to last scene, as Tony is sweeping up in the backyard, he pauses and looks upward, and you hear what sounded very much to me like ducks quacking. Very fitting...the ducks are flying away, just as his kids are grown and almost gone. (Although of course AJ may never leave, now that I think about it!)

Tony looks upward, and we get a shot looking up at the trees and the sky...very reminiscent of the scenes we got earlier in the season as Tony was pondering his life after the shooting. Only this time instead of the soothing wind rustling through the leaves, we see barren trees and bleak frigid skies...no doubt a reflection of what life holds for Tony.

The ducks where not back. Tony thought they where...but when he looked he saw nothing but empty sky. The ducks where Tony's chance at redemption. They ultimately led to his therapy. The therapy failed. No more ducks for Tony means no redemption in his life.

[jradosh]

No, no, no!

Since we can't read it anymore, we're the ones who got whacked. No, you got it wrong. The entire thread has been from Dignan's point of view. So when we see the thread end, we're really seeing Dignan's experience. He definately was whacked.

:p

[aindik]

Funny story on how the show got clearance to use "Don't Stop Believin'" in the finale. When Steve Perry got the call, he refused to allow the song to be used unless he was told how the show ended.

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1562298/20070612/journey.jhtml

"I was not excited about [the possibility of] the Soprano family being whacked to 'Don't Stop Believin'," said Perry, who watched the show with glee Sunday night and again on Monday. "I told them, 'Unless I know what happens — and I will swear to secrecy — I can't in good conscience feel good about its use.'" The show's producers made Perry promise to keep it under his lid, which he did, and then they spilled the beans on how the song was used and how the show ends, after which Perry signed off.

[BryanRDC]

Funny story on how the show got clearance to use "Don't Stop Believin'" in the finale. When Steve Perry got the call, he refused to allow the song to be used unless he was told how the show ended.

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1562298/20070612/journey.jhtml
That is so cool! I've never given Journey two thoughts - I know some of their music and it just fits into that era in my mind (Jouney|Styx|Kansas|Rush - I can never remember who's who), but I'll never hear that song the same way again.

[Rob Helmerichs]

I'm kinda surprised in the aftermath of this story that there haven't been massive internet rumors that Steve Perry made them change the ending to Sopranos...

[tecban]

But that has been the show. The show has ALWAYS been that way. It has not been one for wrapping things up. The entire uniqueness of the show when it first started hinged on that as a major factor.

It is the thing that has bothered me for the last few years about some of the complaints about the show. A lot of them seem based on complaining about some of the things that have made the show so good for so long. This show encapsulated what has ALWAYS been good about the Sopranos. As mentioned earlier Chase wrote and directed it. In a nutshell this is the epitome of what the Sopranos has always been. Focused on Tony and his family first and foremost. Throw in a mix of psychology and psychiatry, and then as a secondary act the mafia lifestyle. We have always been glimpsing into the world of the Sopranos, it was never tied to a beginning a middle or an end. No conclusion, no finality.

This episode, actually could be a perfect encapsulation of what the show always ways. As someone else mentioned too, many Seasons have ended with the Soprano family around a table eating. I would be curious to know how many times out of the 6 years it has happened. I can think of maybe 3 off the top of my head.

I just don't get how not knowing what happens ruins the show or makes it any less compelling. I thought the final scene in Holsten's was amazingly tense. Nothing about the ending changed my experience watching the scene.I'm late to the discussion since I was out of town last Sunday and Monday (and boy was it hard to avoid the spoilers everywhere - even ESPN!)

+1 marksman - very well said.

[5thcrewman]

I'm kinda surprised in the aftermath of this story that there haven't been massive internet rumors that Steve Perry made them change the ending to Sopranos...
I wouldn't put it past that little, sawed-off troll! :p

[schmatt]

The Finale was good but the ending was sort of like having sex, slowly building to a climax, and then your kids open the bedroom door.

I don't think Tony was killed. Most of the hits usually happen right away. They walk through the door and start firing like with Bobby. It's obvious that Chase wanted us to think Tony might get wacked and possibly to show that Tony will forever be on guard and suspicious.

Yes, the FBI's exuberance over Phil's death was funny. I think what he meant is that Tony and his crew may win this war and by saying "we" he's including himself. I think the FBI Agent felt connected to Tony and his crew after all those years. I think the scene were he calls Tony from a motel after sleeping with another agent was him gleaning information from her about Phil's location just for Tony. So by doing that and helping Tony, and he was now "in the war" and affected it's outcome.

Overall, Chase left the outcome wide open for your own interpretation and possible future shows. I'm ok with that. It's been one heck of ride. Great show. It will be missed.

[dmdeane]

I think Chase's biggest problem is he over-estimated his audience...I don't have time to wade through this entire thread, so I'll just quote you here. You've hit the nail on the head.

People who are going "wtf" about this ending puzzle me: what precisely did they think they were watching for the past eight years? This was a show about life, about how all the little threads of life interconnect and intertwine, often without apparent logic or plan. There was no way to conclude this show in the way people seem to demand. This could not be ended neatly - so Chase just ended it. Period. It's done. There's no need to invent theories that Tony was killed or anything else. The family got together, had dinner, story ends.

I'm amused to read people in this thread who openly declare, among other things, that they 1) don't like to think about TV, 2) they don't watch TV in order to use their imagination, 3) and they expect things on TV to be neatly resolved at the end of every episode or every season or at least at the end of the series.

Obviously some people missed the point of the Sopranos.

[Paul Wozniak]

No dmdeane, YOU are the one that hit the nail on the head. I thought maybe I was alone in seeing this.

[Turtleboy]

From slate.com, how Harry Potter ends:


Harry walked into the Three Broomsticks and took a seat in a booth near the back. Who were all the people in here tonight? They looked familiar, but Harry didn't know any of them. Was that Dolores Umbridge? No, just some woman in a hideous cardigan.

None of these diners knew yet that Voldemort was dead—not by Harry's hand, but killed instead by Dean Thomas and Seamus Finnegan, who'd happened upon He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named outside of London. They'd cursed him from behind and watched as the Knight Bus ran over his head with a horrible crunching sound.

Harry flipped through the channels on the wizarding wireless until he found a song that reminded him of the old days, "Do the Hippogriff" by the Weird Sisters. He remembered the crowds dancing to this song at the Yule Ball, years before; so many of those friends were long gone now, dead or in Azkaban. As the song began, Harry heard the tinkle of the bell above the front door as Ginny came in. She hurried to his booth and sat down.

"It's Percy," he told her, taking a swig of butterbeer. "He's testifying."

Each time the bell rang and another wizard walked into the pub, Harry looked up warily. Voldemort may have been dead, but there were still plenty of people who'd be thrilled if Harry was the victim of a Bat-Bogey Hex, or worse. Was that man in the corner booth, stirring sugar into his tea, from the Ministry of Magic? Or a Death Eater, burning for revenge? Or was he just some bystander who couldn't help noticing the famous scar on Harry's forehead?

Ron, his red hair cut short and a thin beard running along his jaw, came through the door and sat down. Harry took his hand for a second, a little overwhelmed. After the depression, and the suicide attempt in the fifth-floor prefects' bathroom, it was good to see Ron happy again; his new office job with the Chudley Cannons quidditch club—and the German-made sports broom Harry had bought him—seemed to be improving his spirits.

Someone approached the table. Harry looked up, hoping it might be Hermione, but instead it was a pale, sneering young man who for a moment reminded Harry of Draco Malfoy. The man walked past Harry's booth and entered the bathroom. Across the pub, a man with dark eyes laughed with a woman who reminded Harry of Bellatrix Lestrange.

Outside, a frustrated Hermione tried to tether Buckbeak the hippogriff to a street lamp, but Buckbeak was having none of it. He shook his eagle head angrily and pawed at the ground. Hermione sighed; she'd have to start with the bowing all over again.

An order of Pumpkin Pasties arrived at the table, and Harry popped one in his mouth. Where was Hermione? She'd told him earlier in the week that she was giving up her plans to be a Healer in favor of a career as an advocate, defending wizards in Ministry hearings. He'd flushed with pride. Maybe having the whole gang here would ease the sense of dread he couldn't shake.

He remembered what Hagrid had told him. "Aye, Harry," poor Hagrid had said. "You probably don't even hear it when it happens." Was that true? Had Hagrid heard the words, or seen the flash of green, when those two Death Eater thugs killed him in the Magical Menagerie in Diagon Alley?

Outside, Hermione finally managed to settle Buckbeak in one place along the curb. She ran across the lane, heading for the entrance to the Three Broomsticks.

Harry heard the jingle of the door. He looked up. He felt his scar

[ravonaf]

One thing is for certain. Tony himself would have hated this ending as a viewer. I think that perfectly sums up the message of the show. They make a point the entire show of showcasing the ugliness in people and then have an ending that people who don't see the point would hate. That's why this ending is brilliant.

[jradford]

Here's an interesting article from an HBO exec. It doesn't really say how we're supposed to interpret the ending, but it hints at it quite a bit:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/TV/06/15/television.sopranos.reut/index.html

[bdlucas]

Here's an interesting article from an HBO exec. It doesn't really say how we're supposed to interpret the ending, but it hints at it quite a bit:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/TV/06/15/television.sopranos.reut/index.html
Ha! The theory they're hinting at is my favorite, the "Tony is dead" theory. :up: :p

[Jeeters]

I didn't buy into the Tony is dead theory. But after reading that article, it makes total sense. He didnt hear it comin'. Neither did we.

[madscientist]

I agree that article hints at the "Tony is dead" ending, but I hope it's wrong. I loved the ending when I thought it just stopped there, but if Chase was thinking what this article implies he was ("you probably never even know" and cut to black) then I like it a LOT less... really I would do a 180 in my opinion of the finale. To me that would really be a cop-out, pretentious art-house bullcrap ending :down: :down: :down:

[Rob Helmerichs]

I agree that article hints at the "Tony is dead" ending, but I hope it's wrong. I loved the ending when I thought it just stopped there, but if Chase was thinking what this article implies he was ("you probably never even know" and cut to black) then I like it a LOT less... really I would do a 180 in my opinion of the finale. To me that would really be a cop-out, pretentious art-house bullcrap ending :down: :down: :down:
Well, according to the article, this is what some guy at HBO thinks, not what Chase thinks.

[Langree]

I didn't buy into the Tony is dead theory. But after reading that article, it makes total sense. He didnt hear it comin'. Neither did we.

My problem with that, if we were supposed to be seeing things from Tony's pov, to feel the anxiety he feels. They shouldn't have kept cutting to Meadow, since there's no way Tony knew she was having parking issues, we shouldn't have either.

[Jeeters]

By cutting to Meadow, it lets us know he's wondering/worried where she is.

[Anubys]

My problem with that, if we were supposed to be seeing things from Tony's pov, to feel the anxiety he feels. They shouldn't have kept cutting to Meadow, since there's no way Tony knew she was having parking issues, we shouldn't have either.

the theory, which I do not agree with, goes like this:

every time the door bell rang, Tony's head snapped up to see who was coming in...so we would see Tony's face, hear the door bell, then the camera would show us who/what Tony sees...

At the end, as Meadow comes in, we're looking at Tony, hear the bell, then see nothing (indicating Tony is dead)...

it's plausible, I just don't agree with it...

[unixadm]

It's funny....I didn't like the cut to black ending, but today, Don't Stop Believing came on my iPod (on shuffle mode), and I listened to the words. Although it wasn't written for this show, I can see why Chase chose it, and it really can be interpreted to fit this show perfectly. I do think it was the perfect song to end the show....if only he had just had Meadow come in, sit down, and a fade to black.


Just a small town girl
Livin' in a lonely world
Carmela before she met Tony....growing up in a small town in NJ


She took the midnight train
Goin' anywhere
Carmella marrying into the "dark" side of the mob

Just a city boy
Born and raised in South Detroit
Well, not South Detroit....Newark, NJ

He took the midnight train
Goin' anywhere
Tony took the path of getting involved in the dark underworld of the mob

A singer in a smokey room
A smell of wine and cheap perfume
For a smile they can share the night
It goes on and on and on and on
Not a singer, but a stripper....Bada Bing.....a reference to all of Tony's infidelities

Strangers waiting
Up and down the boulevard
Their shadows searching
In the night
All of the hitmen and enemies that are lying in wait for Tony


Streetlights, people
Livin' just to find emotion
Hidin', somewhere in the night
Hookers, mobsters and other seedy people in the underworld's world

Workin' hard to get my fill
Tony and crew are all trying to get their piece of the pie

Everybody wants a thrill
Another reference to the hookers, booze, drugs, etc....even the thrill of killing

Payin' anything to roll the dice
Just one more time
A reference to Tony's increased gambling habit

Some will win
Tony, now that Christopher has been killed

Some will lose
Christopher, Phil, Bobby, Big Pussy, etc....all of those who died

Some were born to sing the blues
AJ...and even Tony to some extent

Oh, the movie never ends
It goes on and on and on and on
The crime, deaths, lies and deceit keep going on and on, even when some of the players are killed


Don't stop believin'
Hold on to the feelin'
Tony keeps believing he is a good person, good family man, etc....keeps trying to do things to feel good about himself and hold that feeling of superiority.

[busyba]

Apparently "Don't Stop Believing" has been burning up the iTunes charts ever since the finale.

[knownzero]

I think something has been missed in this debate and its the thought that shows work on many different levels. Take the road runner and coyote for example. It's not just about a hungry coyote trying to bring home dinner. (Google for examples, specifics aren't relevant to my point). But the cartoon works on a lot of different levels - if you want to watch it for the pure cartoony enjoyment and the yuks, it definitely works for that and if you want to get all meta and analyze the hell out of it it certainly work on that level as well.

The Sopranos worked on a number of levels as well which is where I think Chase just missed the high water mark with the ending. As much as he protests, it *is* a mob show with all the gory parts exposed. For the entire series, a person who wants to be entertained without having to think their way through a Kantian philosophical dilemma could do so. Also, it *is* a show about family. It's a show about all the foibles of the American family (only perverted) but at it's heart its a fairly deep look at ourselves. Since this show worked so well on both levels, picking just *one* of those levels to end the show on completely missed the crowd who saw the show as a pure mob show. He took the high road, the film auteur, and made people who were unwilling or unable to decode the subtle intonations of Chase's intricately honed ending, suddenly, well, freak out. It completely and utterly swung and missed with the 'mob as entertainment' crowd which is (if I had to guess) the vast majority of the viewers (myself included).

Hunter S Thompson said it in reference to something else but it's certainly applicable here:

And that, I think, was the handle — that sense of inevitable victory over the forces of Old and Evil. Not in any mean or military sense; we didn’t need that. Our energy would simply prevail. There was no point in fighting — on our side or theirs. We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave. . . .

So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look West, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark — that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.



The final episode was where the wave broke and rolled back. It came so close to being that high water mark for all of television but it missed the mark by just 10 or so seconds of....nothing.

[madscientist]

Well, according to the article, this is what some guy at HBO thinks, not what Chase thinks.True, that's why I said "if". I'm still holding on to my theory of the end and am very happy with it, thanks very much :)

[bdlucas]

Don't remember seeing this posted yet...

It is somewhat unusual that the music that we hear over the last scene was not just a soundtrack, but was the music that the characters in the scene were actually hearing. In fact a bit of a big deal was made of this when they showed us Tony picking out the music and playing it.

So when the audio cut out at the end, it wasn't just a soundtrack that only we the audience were hearing that ended; it was the music that Tony was hearing that ended. But of course if they are showing us Tony's death from his point of view it had to be so.

Not proof of course, but just one more piece that fits...

[TiVo'Brien]

One thing is for certain. Tony himself would have hated this ending as a viewer. ........
Yeah, can't you see him on the couch with his big bowl of ice cream, the scene cuts to black, he jumps up to exclaim, "Oh WTF!!!" :mad: :mad: :mad:

:D

Classic Tony. I'm gonna miss him.

[Langree]

Yeah, can't you see him on the couch with his big bowl of ice cream, the scene cuts to black, he jumps up to exclaim, "Oh WTF!!!" :mad: :mad: :mad:

:D

Classic Tony. I'm gonna miss him.

he woulda thrown the bowl at the big screen too.

[schmatt]

Don't remember seeing this posted yet...

It is somewhat unusual that the music that we hear over the last scene was not just a soundtrack, but was the music that the characters in the scene were actually hearing. In fact a bit of a big deal was made of this when they showed us Tony picking out the music and playing it.

So when the audio cut out at the end, it wasn't just a soundtrack that only we the audience were hearing that ended; it was the music that Tony was hearing that ended. But of course if they are showing us Tony's death from his point of view it had to be so.

Not proof of course, but just one more piece that fits...

This theory really intrigues me and it does seem plausible. BUT, if Tony is shot as suggested by the blackness, wouldn't he (and us) at least here a split-second loud as hell noise - which is the gun going off? I've never been shot in the head by surprise, but I have shot my own handgun and I have to wear headphones because of the noise. We should have at least heard a bang, then silence.

[bdlucas]

This theory really intrigues me and it does seem plausible. BUT, if Tony is shot as suggested by the blackness, wouldn't he (and us) at least here a split-second loud as hell noise - which is the gun going off? I've never been shot in the head by surprise, but I have shot my own handgun and I have to wear headphones because of the noise. We should have at least heard a bang, then silence.
In a scene that they replayed in the next-to-last episode, Tony and Bobby speculate that when you're shot you're dead before you have a chance to hear anything. Who knows (or can know) whether that's really true, but that would be what they're going for according to the "Tony's death from his POV" interpretation.

[schmatt]

In a scene that they replayed in the next-to-last episode, Tony and Bobby speculate that when you're shot you're dead before you have a chance to hear anything. Who knows (or can know) whether that's really true, but that would be what they're going for according to the "Tony's death from his POV" interpretation.

Good point. I do remember that conversation and the final scene would fit with that.

[busyba]

In a scene that they replayed in the next-to-last episode, Tony and Bobby speculate that when you're shot you're dead before you have a chance to hear anything.
Of course, for Bobby, that clearly wasn't the case. :)


Phil Leotardo, on the other hand, when he got hit, he almost certainly must have thought his cable service cut out. :D

[snowjay]

Don't remember seeing this posted yet...

It is somewhat unusual that the music that we hear over the last scene was not just a soundtrack, but was the music that the characters in the scene were actually hearing. In fact a bit of a big deal was made of this when they showed us Tony picking out the music and playing it.

So when the audio cut out at the end, it wasn't just a soundtrack that only we the audience were hearing that ended; it was the music that Tony was hearing that ended. But of course if they are showing us Tony's death from his point of view it had to be so.

Not proof of course, but just one more piece that fits...


It also works for the audience being killed also. We are basically a fly on the wall hearing and seeing everything going on.

[bdlucas]

It also works for the audience being killed also. We are basically a fly on the wall hearing and seeing everything going on.
Sure, but if the intent was to kill off the audience it would have worked just as well for the song to be playing as a normal accompanying soundtrack that just the audience hears. They wouldn't have needed to go to the trouble of setting up the somewhat unusual circumstance that the song is part of the scene itself.

[aindik]

In the 85 episodes of the Sopranos prior to this finale, did we ever see all four of them around a table eating something that wasn't Italian food? In fact, did we ever see Tony eat something that wasn't Italian food?

Now they go to diners and and eat onion rings. "Best in the state if you ask me."

Weird.

[CharlieW]

In fact, did we ever see Tony eat something that wasn't Italian food?



Tony and Carmela were really into that Sushi place for awhile.

[madscientist]

So when the audio cut out at the end, it wasn't just a soundtrack that only we the audience were hearing that ended; it was the music that Tony was hearing that ended. But of course if they are showing us Tony's death from his point of view it had to be so.

Not proof of course, but just one more piece that fits...Or, it could just be that the show is... over. Tony's not whacked. The "audience" is not whacked. No one is whacked. The show ends. Hence, no soundtrack. I don't think the music ending gives us any information at all.

I think you guys are really reaching.

Why not just accept the ending that was? It was excellent without having to invent your own.

BTW, if you want to hear a reason I don't believe the Members Only guy whacked Tony, it's because we never hear him come out of the bathroom. When he goes in you can clearly hear the door open and close. Unless you think Tony got shot through the door, Tony (and us) would have certainly heard him come back out, but we never do. Hence, he's still in the bathroom when the screen goes black. If Chase wanted us to think he whacked Tony he would have had the door open/close on the soundtrack just before the end.

[Warren]

just caught the end to see what every one was talking about. wow

[astrohip]

Check out the July 14 Pearls Before Swine comic strip . . .

http://www.comics.com/comics/pearls/archive/pearls-20070714.html

http://www.comics.com/comics/pearls/