One Week After Getting an HR20 for an HR10, and I'm Feeling Fine

[boltjames]

I thought I couldn't live without my Tivo, but I was wrong. The HR20 is a damned fine machine. The 'native' mode alone is worth the price of admission with my Sony XBR2's fab scalers and processors, and of course the extra HD channels are there for the icing.

If any lurkers are still on the fence for jumping from their HR10's, don't be. The UI is different, but in the end it's the same result just with better resolution and more programming.

BJ

[MarathonMan]

Same result? How do you compensate for the lack of a dual buffer?

When that gets fixed, I'll switch, until then, I'm sticking with the HR10-250.

But hey, that's me, I'm glad your happy with you're HR20.

Pete

[terpfan1980]

Same result? How do you compensate for the lack of a dual buffer?

When that gets fixed, I'll switch, until then, I'm sticking with the HR10-250.

But hey, that's me, I'm glad your happy with you're HR20.

Pete

Having been a DirecTV DVR powered by TiVo user for quite some time (back to the Philips series 1 types, and then later an HR10-250), I thought I'd be more worried about the dual buffers myself, but over a very short period of time you realize that you very, very rarely would ever really *need* dual buffers. Want them? sure, but need them, not really.

It is fairly easy to work around the lack of dual buffers issue by simply recording two things at once and then jumping back and forth between the recordings at will. I know it's not exactly the same thing, but it is sufficient for most people's needs.

There are other things I wish the HR20 does that the HR10 did, but there are good and bad about both machines. If Murdoch and company hadn't been so hostile to TiVo, then perhaps I'd be using a newer TiVo powered unit myself now, but I'm not going to cry over spil't milk, and I'm not going to go forever without being able to watch the latest HD content that DirecTV puts up. Especially not considering that the HR20 is a very capable machine that does the job well enough at this time.

[fasTLane]

Same result? How do you compensate for the lack of a dual buffer? When that gets fixed, I'll switch, until then, I'm sticking with the HR10-250.Tivo rocks!

[RS4]

I'm hanging on to my Tivo for now and will use OTA for HD. I called Direct yesterday to see how much time was left on my commitment for the HR10-250. They told me none. I canceled my NFLST - not paying $350, so now I'm going to start looking around to see if I can find something else.

I don't like committing to something for 2 years - even though I've been with Direct since the beginning in '94 or '95. They offered the HR20 for $20, but I asked if the commitment would be forgiven if the box didn't work and she said no. So, I said no too.

I don't feel like being a beta tester and have to pay for it. I saw yesterday something about some feature called Picture in Group - or something like that which shows a window of whats being recorded. I can hit the Tivo button and turn the TV on and will not hear or see the football game that I want to watch later. It's just an example of how poorly thought out this box is. Any normal software programmer knows that for every feature you incorporate, you include an 'option out'.

Direct seems to me to be such an arrogant company nowdays. I'm glad business is booming for them, but I'm looking forward to an alternative.

[Todd]

I'm trying to decide what to do myself. I was about to go ahead and get the TiVo S3, but I've discovered that there are significant problem with the S3 and our local Cox cable system that no one seems to be able to solve. So then I thinking about replacing my SD TiVo with the HR20 and keeping my HR10. Question, if I do that, can I get out of the 2 year commitment by just returning the HR20?

[juanian]

I'm switching to D* soon, and probably getting an HR20. What is the dual buffer issue? (Is it 'can record two shows at once, but can't switch between two live unrecorded channels like an S2 DT?)

As to D*'s arrogance, I am really bothered by their claims of superior picture quality over cable in their comercials. The reeeealy fine print says that this is compared to standard cable, not digital cable. From what I have read (around here), the overcompression of their channels makes them worse than digital cable. True or False?

[RS4]

Todd, that was my situation too - replacing one of the S2 Dtivos, keeping the other one and also keeping the HR1-250. She told me I would be stuck with the 2-year commitment even if I returned the box. She said they had $800 in the box. What that had to do with it is beyond me. It just speaks to Direct's arrogance.

Who knows, maybe I won't find an alternative, and I may stick with DTV until I find something. I may end up getting the HR20, but I'll be gone asap if I find someone else. The other folks can be lead into that kind of commitment, but I don't like the attitude and will see if I can't find someone else to do business with.

[BruceShultes]

I'm switching to D* soon, and probably getting an HR20. What is the dual buffer issue? (Is it 'can record two shows at once, but can't switch between two live unrecorded channels like an S2 DT?)

As to D*'s arrogance, I am really bothered by their claims of superior picture quality over cable in their comercials. The reeeealy fine print says that this is compared to standard cable, not digital cable. From what I have read (around here), the overcompression of their channels makes them worse than digital cable. True or False?
That is the exact issue with dual buffers.

As far as the superior picture claim, it is no worse than cable's commercials claiming that D* users lose their picture every time it rains. I have had D* since the early nineties and have lost picture during a rain storm about five times during that period. My local TW has lost service more times during the last year.

[Arkie]

I can second what the original poster said. I have had an HR20 for two weeks now, and have made the adjustment from the HR10-250 quite easily.

[smoking_rubber]

Tivo rocks. I use the dual buffer CONSTANTLY. I jump back and forth between tuners like it was meant to be used. I've read that Murdock and Tivo were swapping spit again so I'm really hoping to see a new S3/Direct model on the market someday soon. Of course, that's just a top-secret rumor I'd like to get started. When the new HD channels are actually broadcasting, I'll re-evaluate my priorities and consider my options . . . but for now, you'd have to pry that peanut remote from my cold fingers.

[Rodney]

I wish I could say I made the adjustment to the HR20 easy, but for me at least, it is not.

More than even the loss of the dual buffers, the main problem I have is the Channels I Receive bug that all the DirectDVR's have, which is that you cannot define the channels you actually get. This has caused the machine to not record shows I have asked to have recorded, because it goes to channels I don't have! Very frustrating.

[sgndave]

I've read that Murdock and Tivo were swapping spit again so I'm really hoping to see a new S3/Direct model on the market someday soon.

No, Murdoch still hates Tivo as much as ever. It's the soon-to-be new owner of D*, Liberty, that reportedly likes Tivo. That's raised some hopes that Tivo will once again be providing new software for D* after Liberty takes over later this year. Of course, there will be a delay between the time they reach an agreement and the time new software can be developed for MPEG4 boxes, but at least things might be moving in the right direction for a change.

[Mark Lopez]

Any normal software programmer knows that for every feature you incorporate, you include an 'option out'.


:p :p :p It's funny how when people would complain about Tivo not giving more options, the excuse always was 'Tivo was designed to be easy to use and options would just confuse people'. :rolleyes: The Tivo army (lemmings) always crack me up.

[JimSpence]

I find it interesting reading the various pros and cons on the HR20. I'm ambivalent about it. When my area (DMA=157) gets locals in MPEG4 HD and there are more national HD channels then I'll probably get an HR20, or whatever the latest model is by then. :)

[bonscott87]

I wish I could say I made the adjustment to the HR20 easy, but for me at least, it is not.

More than even the loss of the dual buffers, the main problem I have is the Channels I Receive bug that all the DirectDVR's have, which is that you cannot define the channels you actually get. This has caused the machine to not record shows I have asked to have recorded, because it goes to channels I don't have! Very frustrating.

Don't use autorecord searches and you won't encounter this bug. I know that's not a solution or a fix but the only time you'll see this issue is if you use an autorecord search.

FYI this is not a bug in the HR20 or R15. The reason that the CIR list doesn't work is because DirecTV has to make a change to the guide data stream to make it work and other older receivers break because of it (hmmmm....Tivo's perhaps). So DirecTV has to get all these other receivers updated first before they can turn on the CIR. Earl has stated that progress is moving forward on updating the problem receivers but it's slow going.

[Rodney]

Don't use autorecord searches and you won't encounter this bug. I know that's not a solution or a fix but the only time you'll see this issue is if you use an autorecord search.

Yes, I guess I shouldn't use the functionality the machine gives me, and not use autorecord. Not really a good answer, is that?

It also makes searching for shows difficult. You get this list of channels that you don't actually get.
It seems pretty silly not to just give us the ability to manually change the CIR like the HR10-250's do. Why give us nothing now? I like the ability to take out channels that I don't like, (shopping channels, etc.), and not have them appear in the guide. Now I have all channels in the guide, whether I get them or not, and whether I like them or not.

But, I am glad that others are not finding these as stumbling blocks to move to the DirecTV DVR's. For me, I only use them for local HD feeds. Everything else is on my TiVo's, which are able to autorecord my wishlists and season passes, and I don't have to scroll through the guide with channels I either don't receive, or just don't want to see. Hopefully before more HD channels come available, DirecTV will fix this and the other quirks (I didn't say bug Scott! :) ) the HR20's have.

[Mark Lopez]

I like the ability to take out channels that I don't like, (shopping channels, etc.), and not have them appear in the guide. Now I have all channels in the guide, whether I get them or not, and whether I like them or not.


Are you saying the HR20 does not have any customizable guides (i.e. favorites list)?

[bonscott87]

Yes, I guess I shouldn't use the functionality the machine gives me, and not use autorecord. Not really a good answer, is that?

It also makes searching for shows difficult. You get this list of channels that you don't actually get.
It seems pretty silly not to just give us the ability to manually change the CIR like the HR10-250's do. Why give us nothing now? I like the ability to take out channels that I don't like, (shopping channels, etc.), and not have them appear in the guide. Now I have all channels in the guide, whether I get them or not, and whether I like them or not.

But, I am glad that others are not finding these as stumbling blocks to move to the DirecTV DVR's. For me, I only use them for local HD feeds. Everything else is on my TiVo's, which are able to autorecord my wishlists and season passes, and I don't have to scroll through the guide with channels I either don't receive, or just don't want to see. Hopefully before more HD channels come available, DirecTV will fix this and the other quirks (I didn't say bug Scott! :) ) the HR20's have.

:D

Now don't get me wrong, I think it sucks that CIR doesn't work. But I also realize why and it's because other receivers can't handle the guide data needed to make it work. Blame what you will in that instance.

But I will say that I use search all the time on the HR20. I know what channels I get and don't get. For example I have a search for Red Wings. So I pull that up every 2 weeks and with one touch record I've just recorded half a dozen games over the next two weeks in about 20 seconds or less. Can't beat that for speed.

Or I heard there was a show on History channel or something called "The Universe". No idea what day or time. So I search for it, find it, hit record twice and viola, season pass is created. Done deal.

So hopefully these bunk receivers can get updated sooner rather then later and we can get CIR working. An oft requested new feature is to be able to have the search work off a favorite list just like the guide does. Then it doesn't matter if CIR work or not. Vote for it on the HR20 wishlist at DBSTalk. DirecTV has already granted many of the top 10 voted wishes.

[Rodney]

Now don't get me wrong, I think it sucks that CIR doesn't work. But I also realize why and it's because other receivers can't handle the guide data needed to make it work. Blame what you will in that instance.

Sorry, wasn't trying to make this a blame game. I was just trying to say that while the OP was not having issues with moving from the HR10 to the HR20, others like myself were not feeling the same "warm fuzzies". I am living with the HR20's quirks because I want my locals in HD (without using an OTA antenna). If I had my druthers, I would purchase a TiVO and remove the HR20's if it could somehow get the new MPEG4 channels.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[nrc]

Are you saying the HR20 does not have any customizable guides (i.e. favorites list)?

That's how I read it. And evidently for some that's just fine because, see, there are reasons. :confused:

[nrc]

I thought I couldn't live without my Tivo, but I was wrong. The HR20 is a damned fine machine. The 'native' mode alone is worth the price of admission with my Sony XBR2's fab scalers and processors, and of course the extra HD channels are there for the icing.

Just curious what your options were. Did you consider an S3 with cable?

[tfederov]

That's how I read it. And evidently for some that's just fine because, see, there are reasons. :confused:

HR20 does have custom lists, it just currently doesn't have an option to show you the channels that "you" receive (HR10 doesn't do this either IIRC). For example, you may not get the east/west national feeds but if you have "Law and Order" set as a Season Pass and don't specifically say what channel, it may pull from one of those. All of my Series Links are tied to a specific channel just for that reason. As far as customizing lists I have all of the shopping, religious, and foreign channels unselected and it hasn't been a problem on any of my receivers. This is the same way my HR10s were set up.

[ad301]

For example I have a search for Red Wings. So I pull that up every 2 weeks and with one touch record I've just recorded half a dozen games over the next two weeks in about 20 seconds or less. Can't beat that for speed.Wrong. If you had a TiVo Series3, you could set up, one time, a couple of SPs and/or WLs, and then you'd NEVER have to do a search, the games would just automatically show up in your NPL. Properly padded, too, BTW.

The giant step backwards in search capability is the single biggest reason that I quit DirecTV. For years I had a long list of WLs on my hr10s, mostly movies I was watching for in HD. This capability is simply impossible on the newer generic dvrs. While TiVo was developing new ways and places to search (see Swivel Search), DirecTV was moving in the opposite direction. TiVo S3s and Comcast is currently, for me, a far better choice. Maybe the pendulum will swing back towards DirecTV in the future, but a new, fully capable TiVo would have to be part of that swing.

[tfederov]

Wrong. If you had a TiVo Series3, you could set up, one time, a couple of SPs and/or WLs, and then you'd NEVER have to do a search, the games would just automatically show up in your NPL. Properly padded, too, BTW.

I swear this isn't a troll, but how does the S3 know if you're going into triple overtime during the playoffs?

[ad301]

I swear this isn't a troll, but how does the S3 know if you're going into triple overtime during the playoffs?It doesn't of course, but there's nothing any dvr can do about that. By properly-padded, I meant recorded for the time period specified by the user in the SP or ARWL. The user can adjust the end-padding for the circumstances, though. During regular season, 30 minutes or an hour for hockey and basketball, 90 minutes for baseball (or 3 hours if you really want to be crazy about it), and 1 hour for football. During playoffs, 3 hour end-padding is rarely exceeded.

[joed32]

The HR20s do have favorites lists, they just don't connect with the search function. This needs to be fixed and hopefully it will be.

[bonscott87]

Wrong. If you had a TiVo Series3, you could set up, one time, a couple of SPs and/or WLs, and then you'd NEVER have to do a search, the games would just automatically show up in your NPL. Properly padded, too, BTW.


See, I could never get an autorecord WL on my Tivo's to get my Red Wings games over the past 7 years. So I gave up on it. My problem is what if the Wings are on 3 different channels? I only want it from my RSN but the WL might choose it off ESPN (or now god forbid Vs.) Thus I always did the exact same thing on a Tivo to setup games every couple weeks. Thus the move to the HR20 was no different for me, just faster to do the same thing.

I know others were lucky and WLs worked fine for sports but for many they do not.

But again, the HR20 will get there too once the other "bad" receivers get updated to be able to handle it.

[Cudahy]

Up to now the 2 main reasons I'm sticking with the HDTivo have been the wishlists and the peanut remote(which has become an extension of my hand). I've now got a 3rd reason.
I totally depend on the channels you receive guide(which I use in place of the Favorites).
I'll stick with it until the dozen HD channels we get now are taken away(2 years?).

[bonscott87]

Up to now the 2 main reasons I'm sticking with the HDTivo have been the wishlists and the peanut remote(which has become an extension of my hand). I've now got a 3rd reason.
I totally depend on the channels you receive guide(which I use in place of the Favorites).
I'll stick with it until the dozen HD channels we get now are taken away(2 years?).

Just to clarify, you can have 2 favorites lists on an HR20, totally customizable, and you can assign the guide to use either one. You'll never see the channels not in your favorite list. For example I have my "main" favorite list which is all the channels I care about and then I have an "NFL" favorite list to which I change my guide to every Sunday for Sunday Ticket so that the guide only contains the Sunday Ticket and local channels that games might be on. Couple this with the one line guide via the blue button and it makes switching to other games a snap.

The only issue is with searching in that it uses all channels and you can't select a favorite list to filter the search on. If you just do general searching to find thing then this really isn't a big deal. BUT if you plan to autorecord it *could* be a big deal, depending on what your search is.

[Mark Lopez]

.
I totally depend on the channels you receive guide(which I use in place of the Favorites).


Why? :confused: And how do you handle DirecTV constantly adding channels back in after you deselect them? Sounds like a lot of hassle that accomplishes nothing.

[ebockelman]

:p :p :p It's funny how when people would complain about Tivo not giving more options, the excuse always was 'Tivo was designed to be easy to use and options would just confuse people'. :rolleyes: The Tivo army (lemmings) always crack me up.

As opposed to the HR20 army (lemmings) that excuse all the bugs/failures/shortcomings of that device? (Like lack of DLB, lack of FF autocorrect, HDMI problems, etc.) Heck, there were people justifying the fact that it didn't evey have OTA at launch!

[fasTLane]

As opposed to the HR20 army (lemmings) that excuse all the bugs/failures/shortcomings of that device? (Like lack of DLB, lack of FF autocorrect, HDMI problems, etc.) Heck, there were people justifying the fact that it didn't evey have OTA at launch! :p Touché

[ad301]

BTW, according to the sticky at the top of this forum, "It’s been decided that since this is a TiVo forum, discussion of DVR’s will be limited to models running TiVo software. Discussion of the new Directv DVR should be done on boards such as avsforum and dbstalk."

Isn't this whole thread, and others like it, off-topic? Or has that policy been changed?

Just curious.

[bonscott87]

As opposed to the HR20 army (lemmings) that excuse all the bugs/failures/shortcomings of that device? (Like lack of DLB, lack of FF autocorrect, HDMI problems, etc.) Heck, there were people justifying the fact that it didn't evey have OTA at launch!

As opposed to the bugs/failures/shortcomings of the DirecTivos at launch like lack of a 2nd tuner and HDMI problems on the HR10? :p

[boltjames]

Here's the thing: I'm a 42 year old dad and I am forever indebted to Tivo and the impact it's had on my family and my life.

I'm not into the hacking/networking so much as I'm into a reliable device that does it's VCR-like job and has a UI that's easy for the wife and kids. It takes about a day to get used to the HR20 and then it's the same as an HR10 from that "dad" perspective.

Things that I see as improvements over the HR10:

1. Much faster menu's.

2. Bargraph guide with "HD" markers making it easier to find what you're looking for in a more traditional manner.

3. One-button recording.

4. On-screen softkeys (red, blue, green, etc.)

5. Multiple channels to 'jump' back to.

6. Lack of dual buffer. I used to stress over whether show #2 was in buffer or not and if I could "jump" safely. The lack of the second buffer does make things easier. One less thing to think about.

7. My NBC and FOX sound dropouts are gone.

8. I get more HD programs, obviously, and am set for the future.

9. Easier to access sort menus makes it easier to get to HD channels.

10. Picture-in-picture in the guide. No, not for continued viewing of what's on, but the fact that it's a better solution than the see-thru guide of the HR10 as you can have more information, easier to read, etc. Again, for kids and the wife, it's less distracting.

It's inevitable that we all will migrate from HR10's to HR20's. In the end, there's no reason to wait. If you're a hacker, I can see the advantages of holding on till the bitter end. But if you're a dad with a non-tech wife and a young bunch of kids, there's zero reason to prolong the inevitable. Sell your HR10 while its still worth something.

BJ

[boltjames]

BTW, according to the sticky at the top of this forum, "It’s been decided that since this is a TiVo forum, discussion of DVR’s will be limited to models running TiVo software. Discussion of the new Directv DVR should be done on boards such as avsforum and dbstalk."

Isn't this whole thread, and others like it, off-topic? Or has that policy been changed?

Just curious.

Respectfully, I think a thread like this is important for this forum as thousands of non-registered, shy lurkers with HR10's need answers to the simple question of what roadbumps there are in migrating from an HR10 to an HR20 from real-world, non-partisan long-time DirecTV users.

/sermon

BJ

[parzec]

I think the intent of the ban was to prevent this from becoming a non-Tivo support group, and that discussions/comparisons of features between Tivo and its competitors (DirecTV, Microsoft, Myth TV, etc) are OK. But in the end, I think the mods will let us know as soon as that line has been crossed.

[juanian]

Respectfully, I think a thread like this is important for this forum as thousands of non-registered, shy lurkers with HR10's need answers to the simple question of what roadbumps there are in migrating from an HR10 to an HR20 from real-world, non-partisan long-time DirecTV users.

/sermon

BJI agree completely -- since I am probably going to DirecTV soon, I want to know how good/bad a model is, to decide if I should try and buy a soon-to-be-obsolete TiVo model or not.

[bidger]

But in the end, I think the mods will let us know as soon as that line has been crossed.

That's what they don't get paid for. ;)

[sluciani]

As to D*'s arrogance, I am really bothered by their claims of superior picture quality over cable in their comercials. The reeeealy fine print says that this is compared to standard cable, not digital cable. From what I have read (around here), the overcompression of their channels makes them worse than digital cable. True or False?Actually, the MPEG-4 picture quality is comparable to OTA MPEG-2 on the HR10... better quality than the HD channels in the 70's, on either machine.

And since OTA MPEG-2 is the "gold standard", D*'s claims aren't that far off. "There's no way cable picture quality will be better" might be a better way of phrasing it, tho. :) /s

[bidger]

Actually, the MPEG-4 picture quality is comparable to OTA MPEG-2 on the HR10... better quality than the HD channels in the 70's, on either machine.


I saw that Scott Greczkowski make that same claim at the SatGuys board and anyone familiar with Scott knows he doesn't dole out much praise for D*.

[juanian]

Actually, the MPEG-4 picture quality is comparable to OTA MPEG-2 on the HR10... better quality than the HD channels in the 70's, on either machine.

And since OTA MPEG-2 is the "gold standard", D*'s claims aren't that far off. "There's no way cable picture quality will be better" might be a better way of phrasing it, tho. :) /sSorry -- I should have been clearer in my earlier post (when I was speaking out of frustration -- never a good thing :D ).

Since I don't have DirecTV (yet), I can't judge the picture quality, but are the SD (not originally OTA) channels as good as the average digital cable quality? (Oddly, I don't currently see D touting the quality on their web site.) I'm finally happy with the picture quality using digital cable (graininess is essentially gone); I would hate to go from a 'nice' picture to a picture with lots of blocky artifacts from an overcompressed MPEG-2 stream.

[sluciani]

Sorry -- I should have been clearer in my earlier post (when I was speaking out of frustration -- never a good thing :D ).

Since I don't have DirecTV (yet), I can't judge the picture quality, but are the SD (not originally OTA) channels as good as the average digital cable quality? (Oddly, I don't currently see D touting the quality on their web site.) I'm finally happy with the picture quality using digital cable (graininess is essentially gone); I would hate to go from a 'nice' picture to a picture with lots of blocky artifacts from an overcompressed MPEG-2 stream.I'm not a cable customer, but I have seen digitally-delivered cable SD at my son's home (Cablevision in NY), and PQ is about the same as D*'s SD on either the HR10 or the HR20, IMO. D*'s SD is soft compared to HD, of course, but not grainy or "digital" looking at all. /s

[Indiana627]

Actually, the MPEG-4 picture quality is comparable to OTA MPEG-2 on the HR10... better quality than the HD channels in the 70's, on either machine.
Definitely true (and quite impressive). :up:

[Matt L]

I think the intent of the ban was to prevent this from becoming a non-Tivo support group, and that discussions/comparisons of features between Tivo and its competitors (DirecTV, Microsoft, Myth TV, etc) are OK. But in the end, I think the mods will let us know as soon as that line has been crossed.

Personally, I want the HR20 talk to go away- it doesn't belong here. I posted to a Mod. and they said the decision for the moment is to let it continue. I guess we'll agree to disagree.

[fasTLane]

John, I don't know what you're talking about. It was the most
beautiful thing I've ever seen. That guy, he might as well get a
wheelchair and roll himself home. Man, you got...you got the
bitchinist car in the Valley. You'll always be number one, John.
You're the greatest.

Okay, Toad. We'll take 'em all...

[dimented]

Personally, I want the HR20 talk to go away- it doesn't belong here. I posted to a Mod. and they said the decision for the moment is to let it continue. I guess we'll agree to disagree.

I guess it would just be to hard to ignore it and let those of us who want to talk about alone. :rolleyes:

[Sir_winealot]

Well, since he posted the exact same thread over at the other site.....

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=89455

[Matt L]

I guess it would just be to hard to ignore it and let those of us who want to talk about alone. :rolleyes:

Why should I let it alone? This is a TiVo forum. Does your HR20 say TiVo anywhere on it? Do any of the menus say TiVo? Then duh, it's not a TiVo.


Take the discussion over to dbstalk where it belongs.

[deadseasquirrel]

But if you're a dad with a non-tech wife and a young bunch of kids, there's zero reason to prolong the inevitable. Sell your HR10 while its still worth something.

BJ

I fit your description well. However, I wonder about upgrading now when there isn't any new programming yet to take advantage of it. I realize by the time I'll *need* to move to the HR20, my HR10 won't be worth much.

So what would be a better gameplan? Call D* and ask for the upgrade and see if I can for $20 like others have and sell off my Hr10-250 (how does that work anyway-- D* doesn't want the 10-250 in the swap... i do own it)? I'm willing to consider my options... as long as it doesn't leave me without a receiver.

And, I'll need to upgrade my 3LNB dish to a 5 too, right? At least I think it's just a 3LNB... how would I know? edit: nm, I'm pretty positive it's just a 3lnb.

[sluciani]

Why should I let it alone? This is a TiVo forum. Does your HR20 say TiVo anywhere on it? Do any of the menus say TiVo? Then duh, it's not a TiVo.IMO, this isn't just an HR10 issues forum, it's also an HR10 support forum.

That being said, if switching to an HR20 may become an inevitable next step for those HR10 owners who want to take advantage of the new MPEG-4 programming, I think it's appropriate to reassure them that switching may not be as painful as they fear. I suspect that's why he moderators are letting this discussion continue.

Just my .02, so all flames will be ignored. :) /s

[boltjames]

I fit your description well. However, I wonder about upgrading now when there isn't any new programming yet to take advantage of it. I realize by the time I'll *need* to move to the HR20, my HR10 won't be worth much.



I'm in Week 2 now, and the thing that I need to reiterate is that the native mode of the HR20 allows for a markedly better picture if you've got the horsepower in your TV to take advantage of it.

My 46XBR2 has a noticable and distinct improvement in picture quality (especially NBC for golf and FOX for baseball where screen-dooring was making me nuts) now that it is handling the processing/scaling instead of the HR10.

We can talk all we want about UI and dual tuners where the HR10 is the unquestioned champ, but when it comes to additional content and the physical improvement in picture quality, the HR20 really shines. I was expecting a lesser UI experience and got what I knew I would, but the increase in resolution and detail was an unbelievably pleasent surprise.

BJ

[Matt L]

IMO, this isn't just an HR10 issues forum, it's also an HR10 support forum.

That being said, if switching to an HR20 may become an inevitable next step for those HR10 owners who want to take advantage of the new MPEG-4 programming, I think it's appropriate to reassure them that switching may not be as painful as they fear. I suspect that's why he moderators are letting this discussion continue.

Just my .02, so all flames will be ignored. :) /s


That's fine. When that situation arises people can go find a forum that fits their needs exactly the way we all found the TiVo forum. I guess for some that is a very difficult thing to do.


The plain and simple fact is you are prostelatizing just the same as many of the Hr20'ers claim we TiVo folk are. If we went over to the DBStalk forum devoted to the HR20 and stated posting after posting about how TiVo is better or the same as an HR20 and switching is so easy, how long do you think that would last before the topic as locked and if we kept doing it we would be banned? Not long I bet.

[BOBCAT]

Things that I hate about the HR20

1. No duel buffer and no easy way to switch between tuner 1 and 2

2. No option to switch the guide to a vertical format.

3. Poor fast forward. very jerky compared to TiVo. No 6 second jump back

4. Can't jump ahead to the chapter stops, or tick marks on the time line.

5. Poor response on the remote control, doesn't always do the function that you press until the second or 3rd time you press it.

6. No thumbs up / down.

7. No way to turn off the PIP when in the guide.

8. B Band/FTM filters hanging outside like an after thought. Should have been built in on the new model.

9. Only lists 6 recorded programs on the recorded program list. would like the option to have a full screen list. don't need the PIP

Its Too bad that D* didn't take TiVo to the logical next step and had an mpeg4 box built. They would have been able to sell 4 to me to replace my HR10's. With the HR20, will just have 1 in the rack to receive the Mpeg4 HD whenever those channels show up.

[dimented]

That's fine. When that situation arises people can go find a forum that fits their needs exactly the way we all found the TiVo forum. I guess for some that is a very difficult thing to do.


The plain and simple fact is you are prostelatizing just the same as many of the Hr20'ers claim we TiVo folk are. If we went over to the DBStalk forum devoted to the HR20 and stated posting after posting about how TiVo is better or the same as an HR20 and switching is so easy, how long do you think that would last before the topic as locked and if we kept doing it we would be banned? Not long I bet.

Give it a rest man. The Moderators have said it is ok. So it is ok, for now. If the moderators change their mind I will support it completely. But to come into a thread and go off topic about something you think shouldn't be talked about when the moderators say it is ok is just taking things off topic. If you have a problem with it then start a thread in the appropriate place.


I suppose you are one of those that trys to get show yanked from TV and Radio thay you don''t like. If you don't like it, don't read the thread. It is that simple.

[Fish Man]

The plain and simple fact is you are prostelatizing just the same as many of the Hr20'ers claim we TiVo folk are.

I love how any comment about a DVR that isn't a TiVo that is anything more complimentary than "It's a completely worthless bag of suck" is labeled "prostelatizing".

Shows you just who the "religious" zealot is here! :D

[sluciani]

The plain and simple fact is you are prostelatizing just the same as many of the Hr20'ers claim we TiVo folk are. If we went over to the DBStalk forum devoted to the HR20 and stated posting after posting about how TiVo is better or the same as an HR20 and switching is so easy, how long do you think that would last before the topic as locked and if we kept doing it we would be banned? Not long I bet.Matt, I'm not proselytizing. If the HR10 and HR20 were competing products with equally bright futures, you would be correct. But as much as I love the HR10 and hate to admit it, the handwriting is on the wall for this unit, and I think it's helpful to reassure HR10 users who may be faced with the decision to switch in the next year or two. /s

[juanian]

That's fine. When that situation arises people can go find a forum that fits their needs exactly the way we all found the TiVo forum. I guess for some that is a very difficult thing to do.


The plain and simple fact is you are prostelatizing just the same as many of the Hr20'ers claim we TiVo folk are. If we went over to the DBStalk forum devoted to the HR20 and stated posting after posting about how TiVo is better or the same as an HR20 and switching is so easy, how long do you think that would last before the topic as locked and if we kept doing it we would be banned? Not long I bet.Well, maybe I should have left my sarcastic comment in my earlier post. :rolleyes:

I need to know more about the HR20 (vs. the HR10) to determine if I want to go through the extra short-term effort to get an HR10. Will I find this comparison out at DBStalk? (Well, maybe I should spend my time over there instead of here!)

Sigh.

[dmurphy]

Matt, I'm not proselytizing. If the HR10 and HR20 were competing products with equally bright futures, you would be correct. But as much as I love the HR10 and hate to admit it, the handwriting is on the wall for this unit, and I think it's helpful to reassure HR10 users who may be faced with the decision to switch in the next year or two. /s

Agreed. I made the switch, and very similarly, had a much-more-pleasant-than-expected experience.

I think that since the HR20 is the next logical evolutionary step for current HR10 owners, that there could be some discussion of how that next step feels. I agree that this should not turn into an HR20 support forum, but if the post is in the vein of trying to help HR10 owners move forward, then what's the harm?

I love my TiVo units, but I've had to face reality: the HR10 is a dead-end. I made the switch once the YES Network was broadcast in MPEG4 - which means I could -only- watch it on an HR20 (or a non-DVR H20, but why go back to the stone age?). That meant the end of the line for the HR10, for me.

Again, it's a personal option, but given $800 for the Series3 TiVo alone, plus having to pay the TiVo fee, it just wasn't economical. I paid $200 for the DirecTV lifetime fee many moons ago, so whether I have one DVR or 10 on my account, it doesn't cost me an extra penny. (Hence, why all of the receivers in my house are DVR's... the mirror fee's the same, so why not?)

So yep, I'm on the DirecTV bus for quite some time, and well, they chose the HR20. It's like a new airplane - everyone's afraid of it, but once you're on it, it ain't so bad!

[bidger]

(Well, maybe I should spend my time over there instead of here!)


If you intend to learn more about the HR-20, that would probably better serve your purpose.

[sluciani]

[...]I made the switch once the YES Network was broadcast in MPEG4[...]Me too, and up until recently, the Tivo gods sure punished us for that, didn't they? LOL /s

[Ivan1670]

Well they hooked up the HR20 and true, UI isn't that of Tivo( but tivo wasn't as good as ultimate tv either). Picture looks better and I like the native resolution. Just a note to all you Sunday Ticket super fan subscribers, the installer also stated that in order to get super fan, you will need the H20. He stated the only HD games on the Tivo will be from the network feeds. Just passing along what he said.

[Fish Man]

If you intend to learn more about the HR-20, that would probably better serve your purpose.

It is certianly of value, however, to solicit the opinions of others who have, reluctantly or not, made the switch.

"Over there" you'll find a plentitude of people who've never owned a TiVo based DVR spouting "TiVo Sucks" just as in this forum you'll find people with no experience with any DVR other than TiVo spouting "everything that's NOT TiVo sucks".

If you are trying to get an objective comparison of the two products from people who've actually used both, it makes sense to ask the question on both forums.

I'm in the camp of those who switched from the TiVo based HR10 with a great deal of reluctance, and found to my pleasant surprise that the HR20 was not the huge bag of suck that lots of people who've never used one paint it to be. It's actually a reasonably functional and reliable device.

[BOBCAT]

Fish Man,
All though I listed the things I don't like about my HR20, the bottom line is when I hit record, it does. My problem is that the GUI looks basically like my old Sony B3 D* receiver from about 8 years ago, It had PIP in the menu also. I hate the horizontal bar menu. If only they would add the vertical stile menu. I would be a lot happier with it. I wish that D* would have polled users of TiVo and asked them what GUI features they would like in their new DVR instead of just putting it out and saying if you don't like it, TS.

[dmurphy]

I'm in the camp of those who switched from the TiVo based HR10 with a great deal of reluctance, and found to my pleasant surprise that the HR20 was not the huge bag of suck that lots of people who've never used one paint it to be. It's actually a reasonably functional and reliable device.

... and to add to this, if you've ever had the misfortune of using a cable DVR, such as Cablevision's iO, or dare I say it, even the current-generation FiOS DVR, you'd know that the HR20 is much more functional and easier to use.

It's a good box, really. Not one I'm ashamed to have in my house.

[boltjames]

Can I ask, what are HR10 owners who are fiercely loyal to Tivo going to do in December or January when hundreds of HD channels are available on an HR20? Is your goal to miss out on 80+ incremental HD channels for the sake of a superior UI? How far are you willing to take this?

The goal is to get as much HDTV delivered to your house as possible. Right now, with only a handful of channels difference between what a 10 and a 20 can receive I get the decision to stick it out. But isn't the migration to the 20 inevitable for all of us?

BJ

[bacevedo]

I just switched to the Hr20-100 on Friday (6/15) from an HR10-250. I was reluctant at first due to all of the negative things I read here and at DBSTalk. I was also one of those people who just felt that nothing else could compare to a Tivo - sort of a Tivo snob if you will.

Then I went to a friends house a month ago and they had Dish network with one of their in house DVRs. It was not nearly as bad as I thought it would be and actually saw some features on it that I wish my Tivo had. So I thought, if the Dish isn't that bad, and the HR20 might be better than that, why should I not do it?

The first hurdle was the price. I called retention and got them down to the $19.95 S&H fee, $10 off a month for 1 year (since I would be required to get HD Access - I only have the family package now, and none of my base channels are available in HD, so I would get no HD accept for my 4 locals as MPEG4). I thought, for basically nothing, I can keep my HR10 and try out this new receiver.

So, they brought it on Friday (of course their order didn't have the 5LNB dish even though my online order showed it, there is some glitch in their system where the dishes aren't being sent to the installer orders. They are installing the dish this Thursday 6/21). I told him I would install it so he basically dropped it off and left. I installed it and was pleasantly surprised. Since it was an HR20-100, it didn't have the new white UI yet, but lucky me, the CE was available Friday night so I downloaded it and got the new UI.

I can say that I don't miss my HR10 (well, I moved it to the master bedroom, it still makes a nice SD 200 hour DVR). The HR20 has not missed a recording (and it has been recording a ton - my kids Series Links have lots of episodes). My wife and kids even like it - I was concerned about their transition. My 6 year old was actually excited and sat down with the remote control and studied all of the buttons to figure out how to use it - just like his daddy!

I got networking set up on Saturday and was having fun doing picture slide shows and listening to my music collection through my home theater. The only time I had a lock up was when using the networking functionality, but it is clearly in beta (it tells you on the screen when you activate it) so I am not really counting that against them. Also, I have seen the screenshots for the new UI coming out and it should make browsing for pictures and music even better.

Trick play seems to work well for us - I haven't had any issues using it. I know everyone likes the auto correct, but I don't miss it - it usually took me back into the commercials because I would respond so quickly to the show coming on screen (and in the next release, they are adding in auto-correct). As for Dual buffers - I rarely used them and wouldn't consider that anything major. I know for sports buffs, they say it is huge, but I don't ever try to watch two things live at the same time.

And, I love being able to set up Series links really quickly and not have to wait for the processing to happen. It's fast and warns you right away of a conflict.

The OTA tuners are far superior to my HR10. I don't get dropouts and pixilation due to multipath. That alone was huge for me - it's aggravating to be watching LOST and miss 5 seconds of audio in a critical scene due to multi-path.

Also, the Play List (recorded shows) is set up in a way that I like. You see more info about the show and it tells you which folders have new episodes and you can easily find them because they are italicized. You can mark and delete shows in a batch mode, so it's faster to clean up the list when necessary. And with the PIG, my kids can keep watching their shows while I am in the system doing my maintenance (adding a series link, deleting shows, re-prioritizing). Very nice!

But most of all, it's not locking up or rebooting like I have read in so many other places. It's recording on time, completely and without issue.

All in all, I am very happy. I took the plunge now because during the summer season none of my critical shows are on. I wanted to use the slow season to learn the system and make sure everything is working ok before I entrust it into recording my important shows. I can say after a few days, I am ready for that to happen.

If you are on the fence, I would say not to worry about it. The machine is much more stable than I had anticipated. What you see over at DBSTalk is what you see here, only people posting with problems. If you went based on that, you would assume the HR10 is locking up and missing recordings for everyone. But again, I didn't have those issues - that's what made me realize that the problems might be exaggerated.

Bryan

[PurpleMonkeyDish]

It is certianly of value, however, to solicit the opinions of others who have, reluctantly or not, made the switch.

"Over there" you'll find a plentitude of people who've never owned a TiVo based DVR spouting "TiVo Sucks" just as in this forum you'll find people with no experience with any DVR other than TiVo spouting "everything that's NOT TiVo sucks".

If you are trying to get an objective comparison of the two products from people who've actually used both, it makes sense to ask the question on both forums.

I'm in the camp of those who switched from the TiVo based HR10 with a great deal of reluctance, and found to my pleasant surprise that the HR20 was not the huge bag of suck that lots of people who've never used one paint it to be. It's actually a reasonably functional and reliable device.

+1 You just said it all perfectly. That is my situation and opinion on this topic :up:

[CorrysD]

I had an HR20 installed last Friday. My biggest disappointment, aside from the anticipated lousy menus, is the PQ of SD channels. It is less "sharp" than the SD I received on the HR10. I am using the same HDMI/DVI cable; I have Native ON in "stetch" mode so I am getting the raw 480i signal that lets my NEC plasma do the scaling and stretching. Even my wife who never comments on PQ, asked me if there was a problem with the new DVR. Has anyone else experienced this?

[Mr_Bester]

...is the PQ of SD channels. It is less "sharp" than the SD I received on the HR10. ...
It may be D*. I have noticed WGN at night looks terrible, but that is on my Hr-10, but I haven't looked for it on the HR-20
Dug

[sluciani]

I had an HR20 installed last Friday. My biggest disappointment, aside from the anticipated lousy menus, is the PQ of SD channels. It is less "sharp" than the SD I received on the HR10. I am using the same HDMI/DVI cable; I have Native ON in "stetch" mode so I am getting the raw 480i signal that lets my NEC plasma do the scaling and stretching. Even my wife who never comments on PQ, asked me if there was a problem with the new DVR. Has anyone else experienced this?Try native and just check 480p. Perhaps the NEC's deinterlacer isn't as good as the HR10's/HR20's. I see no difference between SD on the HR20 and the HR10 on four different flat panels ( 2-Panny, Fujitsu and Samsung). I used 480p on both the HR10/20. PQ between the two is identical, except that MPEG-4 from the HR20 HD locals is much better quality than the MPEG-2 counterparts in the 80's from either the HR10/20. MPEG-4 cruise controls are not as smooth, however. /s

[CorrysD]

I could try that but I doubt it will help since the NEC is known for their image processing and the fact that I disabled 480P on both the HR10 and HR20. I'm comparing the same signal (480i) for SD channels. With the HR10, I used to manually simulate native mode by changing the output resolution to match the channel's resolution. I always let the NEC do the scaling/deinterlacing.

Wouldn't you prefer your Fujitsu to perform the deinterlacing?

[bonscott87]

I would be a lot happier with it. I wish that D* would have polled users of TiVo and asked them what GUI features they would like in their new DVR instead of just putting it out and saying if you don't like it, TS.

One has to keep in mind that there are a lot of things about a Tivo and it's GUI that *can't* be copied or else Tivo will sue you. There is a reason why the verticle guide on the Tivo is called the "Tivo guide". ;) Obviously this doesn't change ones opinion that their DVR should have such a guide style but the reason behind it is always nice.

However, DirecTV *just* (as in the past week) introduced FFW autocorrection to the HR20 in the last CE release (which means it will go national most likely within a month). The same autocorrection that is a Tivo patent. So either DirecTV licensed the patent from Tivo (a GOOD sign) or they figured out a different way to do it that doesn't infringe. Either way it's all good.

And if you want to help the direction the autocorrection is going, go to DBSTalk and join the CE process. DirecTV listens and changes things (even minor ones like the brightness of the new white GUI) based on weekly feedback from DBSTalk.

Heck, even NDS is getting into the CE act with the R15 which is now receiving many CE releases as of late so the R15 should now finally start getting better.

Anyway, hope you stop over and help make these new DVRs the best they can be because in the end, barring a miracle, these are the DVRs we will have going forward if you want to stick with DirecTV. Might as well get in on the ground floor and help make them better.

[bonscott87]

I could try that but I doubt it will help since the NEC is known for their image processing and the fact that I disabled 480P on both the HR10 and HR20. I'm comparing the same signal (480i) for SD channels. With the HR10, I used to manually simulate native mode by changing the output resolution to match the channel's resolution. I always let the NEC do the scaling/deinterlacing.

Wouldn't you prefer your Fujitsu to perform the deinterlacing?

Depends. I got my Hitachi HDTV for the main reason that it did SD upscaling very well. I find the HR20 PQ on SD channels the best of any DirecTV receiver I have ever had the past 11 years and it does a pretty good job of upscaling itself. I typically just leave it in 1080i mode all the time and only switch to 480i if the SD program is letterboxed as I can use the Hitachi's excellent stretch mode to nearly fill the screen of a letterboxed program.

But it took me about 2 weeks of playing around with all the different options between the HR20 and my TV to come to a combination that works best for me. I'd suggest doing the same as there is no hard and fast rule for everyone's different setups.

[sluciani]

Wouldn't you prefer your Fujitsu to perform the deinterlacing?You would think. I've got the vaunted "AVM-II" processor in my Fujitsu, but the HR10 deinterlacing is actually a tad better. I think they used the Mediatek deinterlacer, which is a fine chip. The Fujitsu scales much better, tho.

You should try 480p, just for kicks. Only takes a second and you may be surprised. /s

[BOBCAT]

bonscott87
Thanks for the info.
My 100s got the download of the "new color" format. Don't like it. Too bright. I prefer the dark blue background better. It should have been a user option, not "Here it is, if you don't like it, TS"

[Chris Gerhard]

Same result? How do you compensate for the lack of a dual buffer?

When that gets fixed, I'll switch, until then, I'm sticking with the HR10-250.

But hey, that's me, I'm glad your happy with you're HR20.

Pete

Just hit record on the two channels you want buffered, not as easy, but also not very difficult. The obvious benefit, no short time limit on the buffer. I have done that a couple of times, but rarely find I need to have two channels going simultaneously. I have two HR20-700's running and I don't miss TiVo nearly as much as I thought I would. The HR20 has a 350 GB hard drive and handles MPEG4, it is really very nice. Once I watch the programs on my two HR10-250's I am going to try to figure out what I can do with them, I hate to give them up.

Chris

[Matt L]

I use the dual buffers all the time, sorry but I will not do without them. If I'm surfing how the hell am I supposed to know I want to record something? There are times I like to watch two shows at once and not record them --why should I have to record everything? What if the recording I'm forced to use overlaps with a scheduled recording? What do I do then? Seems like a lot of trouble to accomplish something that was done elegantly before.

I guess it all comes down to the issue that we all don't use our TiVos and DVRs the same way. D choose to satisfy most of the people but disenfranchise the rest of us. End result is it's their loss, not mine.

[fasTLane]

+1

[Indiana627]

I use the dual buffers all the time, sorry but I will not do without them. If I'm surfing how the hell am I supposed to know I want to record something? There are times I like to watch two shows at once and not record them --why should I have to record everything? What if the recording I'm forced to use overlaps with a scheduled recording? What do I do then? Seems like a lot of trouble to accomplish something that was done elegantly before.

I guess it all comes down to the issue that we all don't use our TiVos and DVRs the same way. D choose to satisfy most of the people but disenfranchise the rest of us. End result is it's their loss, not mine.
The lack of DLB was my biggest hesitation about switching to the HR20. I used my DLBs all the time on the HR10, but after nearly 3 weeks of the HR20, I can honestly say I don't miss them nearly as much as I thought I would. Would I like the HR20 to have DLB? Heck ya. And maybe D* will add that feature as they are listening to HR20 users and implementing ideas we make into software updates. But in the end, holding on to DLBs was not important enough to sacrifice all the upcoming MPEG4 HD channels and my locals in HD. Plus the HR20 is sooooo much faster. Just my opinion.

[bonscott87]

I use the dual buffers all the time, sorry but I will not do without them. If I'm surfing how the hell am I supposed to know I want to record something? There are times I like to watch two shows at once and not record them --why should I have to record everything? What if the recording I'm forced to use overlaps with a scheduled recording? What do I do then? Seems like a lot of trouble to accomplish something that was done elegantly before.

I guess it all comes down to the issue that we all don't use our TiVos and DVRs the same way. D choose to satisfy most of the people but disenfranchise the rest of us. End result is it's their loss, not mine.

So I guess your choice is Dual Buffers vs. 100+ HD channels.

There are trade offs in everything in life, this may be one of those for you unless you have a cable provider that isn't going to Switched Video, adds the HD channels that Dish and DirecTV are adding and thus you can switch and get a S3 Tivo. However to keep up with the HD additions they will have to go to Switched Video which makes the S3 obsolete unfortunately. I wish you luck.

[Matt L]

So I guess your choice is Dual Buffers vs. 100+ HD channels.

There are trade offs in everything in life, this may be one of those for you unless you have a cable provider that isn't going to Switched Video, adds the HD channels that Dish and DirecTV are adding and thus you can switch and get a S3 Tivo. However to keep up with the HD additions they will have to go to Switched Video which makes the S3 obsolete unfortunately. I wish you luck.


What makes you think I'm interested in much of the purported "100" channels? From what I've seen there may be 3 or 4 I'd like. No big loss there. I'm long past the "Gee Wiz --would'ya look at that" phase of HD, been there done that over half a decade ago. When the time comes I'll explore my options and decide on a course that satisfies my needs and wants. Who knows I may end up with a HD HT-PC. I'm playing with a couple of XP Media Center PCs now. I see no reason the TiVo folks could not make a version of their software to work on a PC, after all all TiVo is is a dedicated computer.

[Chris Gerhard]

I don't get the big issue with lack of dual buffers. Just hitting record for two channels stops the issue of accidentally clearing the buffer and means there is no short time limit. To avoid those issues, I recall doing exactly the same with my TiVo at times if I really wanted to be sure to have the two simultaneous programs to jump back and forth with and watch. Dual buffers is a feature I hope is added to the HR20, but I can't see how that is the killer feature of TiVo that some can't live without.

Chris

[Redux]

Dual buffers is a feature I hope is added to the HR20, but I can't see how that is the killer feature of TiVo that some can't live withoutIt isn't.

An innovator brings something great into the world.

A superiror marketer makes a knock-off nearly as good, suceeds in the marketplace and bankrupts the innovator.

This is a process we should applaud. It is what will eventually make China rule the world, and as consumers we will be better off from it.

Some deluded early-adopters pick on a few flaws of the knock-off and try to make a big deal out of it. Their world has long passed.