My problems with Ebay and Paypal for tivo purchase

[icu_nxtime]

I bought a unit off someone on ebay that claimed to have 10 mos service guess what It had no service and had never been activated. I filed a complaint with paypal. Here is part of their reply and mine so far.

I still would like further clarification regarding this statement "The Buyer Complaint Policy only applies to
payments for tangible, physical goods which can be shipped, and
excludes all other payments, including but not limited to payments for
intangibles, for services or for licenses and other access to digital
content . In addition, items prohibited in the PayPal Acceptable Use
Policy are ineligible for coverage."

If you look specifically at the item purchased the policy does not make sense. I purchased a unit which has a Value of ~$80 and the service has a greater value of ~$170. The purchase price is for a physical unit with the service on it. It makes no sense to purchase this product for that amount with no service on it.

Your policy as it is interpreted opens up the flood gates for fraudulent activity and misrepresentation of every product you sell with a Warranty or Service associated with it.

I would like an answer to the following question specifically as it will have implications as to how far I am willing to go to persue further action and compaigns against your policy.

Look up tivo Lifetime Service units they sell for ~$500-600 because of the service that is on the box. Are you saying that I could now advertise my unit as having lifetime knowing it doesn't and the buyer would have no protection because it is a service ??? :eek: :eek: :eek:

Please respond I am still not satisfied with the previous response.

I could sell you a cell phone and claim lifetime calls and no service fees ever to pay, I could sell my car with a 10 year service guarantee for all oil changes and full warranty and with your policy buyers are never protected. I think you should look at the policy again and come to a more reasonable explination about my case specifically.

Thanks

[rdrrepair]

Those rules are out of line with reality - if this is indeed the case then the buyer shouldn't be allowed to advertise the intangible - let them police that one.

[TiVo Troll]

I bought a unit off someone on ebay that claimed to have 10 mos service guess what It had no service and had never been activated. I filed a complaint with paypal...

PayPal's Buyer Protection policy is notoriously useless. Never pay for an eBay item using PayPal unless the payment is funded from a credit card.

I bought Lifetime Service from this deadbeat (http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=dfhbzdfgfghnf&ftab=AllFeedback) and thought I was going to lose over $500 on the deal. Thanks to the CC's dispute policy I got it all back!

Until the end the seller had excellent feedback! (I wasn't one of the last two buyers who posted negative feedback.)

[rdrrepair]

You could argue that the item doesn't work as advertised - no service=non working TiVo

Would you mind posting a link to said item?

[CrashHD]

I thought prepaid tivo service was not transferrable anyway. Is that not correct?

[TiVo Troll]

You could argue that the item doesn't work as advertised - no service=non working TiVo

But don't expect much!

PayPal's Buyer Protection Policy terms (https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/policy_buyer_complaint-outside#pbp-policy).
(Keep scrolling down into the "Claims" section and on to 13.12.)

Would you mind posting a link to said item?

Yes, please at least post the eBay listing number.

[TiVo Troll]

I thought prepaid tivo service was not transferrable anyway. Is that not correct?

Prepaid Service isn't transferrable to another party but if the box is sold the new user can use existing service billed to the original account. The original account holder is responsible for any rollover charges if the service isn't cancelled before its term.

The actual rules and enforcement may be another of TiVo's convoluted grey areas.

[lessd]

You could argue that the item doesn't work as advertised - no service=non working TiVo

Would you mind posting a link to said item?

If you file a PayPal dispute that the item was significally different than the posting, that is acceptable use of the dispute system. The seller could always ship a box of bricks instead of the TiVo

[timckelley]

I have never in my life bought anything from ebay unless is was paypal backed with a credit card. Hopefully you used you credit card. If paypal denies your claim, immediately file for a chargeback with your credit card. You should be successfull.

[TiVo Troll]

Even better, when appropriate initiate an eBay dispute through the credit card used to fund the payment and ignore PayPal's lengthy, overly complicated, and frustrating procedure completely!

[Adam1115]

But I didn't think TiVo service was transferable..?

[TiVo Troll]

Service (except Lifetime) can be transferred among TiVo's on the same account, as long as there's an unsubbed TiVo available to initially move service to. But a TiVo box can be physically transferred to another user while its service remains on the original account. Check out the "Change service number" option in Manage My Account (https://www3.tivo.com/tivo-mma/login/show.do?cams_security_domain=tivocom&cams_login_config=http&cams_original_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww3.tivo.com%3A443%2Ftivo-mma%2Foverview.do).

[VanGoghLikesTivo]

If you funded your Paypal payment with a credit card, call your credit card company and do a chargeback.

[funtoupgrade]

Even better, when appropriate initiate an eBay dispute through the credit card used to fund the payment and ignore PayPal's lengthy, overly complicated, and frustrating procedure completely!

Absolutely impossible to do this. If payment was funded by Paypal eBay defaults to working things out first with them, and so does every credit card company I have ever dealt with. Do you have a credit card that will allow this or are you just speculating?

[timckelley]

Absolutely impossible to do this. If payment was funded by Paypal eBay defaults to working things out first with them, and so does every credit card company I have ever dealt with. Do you have a credit card that will allow this or are you just speculating?

Not only that, but if you are able to bypass paypal and do the dispute directly with the cc without first at least trying to dispute through paypal, this will cause paypal sanctions. You could lose your paypal account.

You have nothing to lose to dispute through paypal first, because even if they deny you, or even just partially deny you, you can still get the rest of your money back later through a cc chargeback.

[TiVo Troll]

Absolutely impossible to do this. If payment was funded by Paypal eBay defaults to working things out first with them, and so does every credit card company I have ever dealt with. Do you have a credit card that will allow this or are you just speculating?

Yes. I have what used to be called the Providian PayPal Visa Card which is now administered by Washington Mutual. Although that card doesn't qualify for account "Verification", charges paid with it don't count against PayPal's lifetime spending limit for non-Verified accounts.

Nowadays PayPal offers their PayPal Plus Visa Card, by GE Money Bank, which also provides account "Verification". I don't know its dispute policy.

When problems occurred I contacted WaMu (https://www.wamucards.com/ola/base/Login) to initiate a CC dispute. They in turn contacted PayPal, which appears to directly initiate a claim (https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/customerservice/EducationClaimResolution) in response, without going through the dispute process first. So far I've used the process three times successfully. The TiVo Lifetime Service fraud was by far the largest disputed charge.

[Stanley Rohner]

Until the end the seller had excellent feedback! (I wasn't one of the last two buyers who posted negative feedback.)

It seems like that excellent EBAY account was hijacked and a crook used it to rip some people off.

[TiVo Troll]

Not only that, but if you are able to bypass paypal and do the dispute directly with the cc without first at least trying to dispute through paypal, this will cause paypal sanctions. You could lose your paypal account.

You have nothing to lose to dispute through paypal first, because even if they deny you, or even just partially deny you, you can still get the rest of your money back later through a cc chargeback.

Here's more info from PayPal's User Agreement (https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/ua/USUA-outside), Section 13.15:

13.15 Relationship between PayPal Protection Programs and Chargeback Rights. The following information relates to reimbursement for losses from purchases where you used a credit card to fund a PayPal purchase:

Credit card chargeback rights, if they apply, are broader than PayPal Buyer Protection: among other things chargeback rights are not limited to $2,000.00 USD per transaction, can be filed more than 45 days after the transaction, and may cover unsatisfactory items even if they are not Significantly Not as Described.”
You can choose to file a Dispute through our Online Dispute Resolution process and escalate the Dispute into a Claim or to exercise your Chargeback rights. However, you cannot pursue both at the same time or seek a double recovery. If you initiate a Dispute through the Online Dispute Resolution process and you then, while the Dispute or Claim is pending, file a Chargeback, PayPal will cancel your Dispute or Claim, and you will have to rely solely on your Chargeback rights.
If you close your Dispute or it is otherwise closed, or if you cancel a Claim or it is denied or results in no refund, you may still be able to pursue Chargeback rights.
If you timely file a Dispute and then escalate it to a Claim, and we do not complete processing of that Claim until after your credit card issuer's imposed deadline for filing a Chargeback or after your bank's deadline for filing an Electronic Fund Transfer Act dispute, and you recover less than the full amount you would have been entitled to recover from the credit card issuer or the bank, we will reimburse you for the remainder of your loss (minus any amount you have already recovered from the seller or any other Buyer Protection Program). PayPal reserves the right to contest Chargebacks, in accordance with the rules of the applicable card issuer or card association.

[TiVo Troll]

It seems like that excellent EBAY account was hijacked and a crook used it to rip some people off.

That is probable, but my transaction occurred months earlier. The lesson I learned from what happened is to NEVER enter into a deal for TiVo Lifetime Service without physically getting possesion of the TiVo box which qualified for Lifetime Service.

TiVo accepted the Lifetime Service transfer for 2 1/2 months before it (POOF!!) disappeared from my TiVo account with no notice whatsoever. The original TiVo account holder sent TiVo a fax documenting the original purchase. I contacted the police in the eBay seller's jurisdiction, halfway across the country, who said it was a civil matter and they wouldn't get involved.

[lessd]

That is probable, but my transaction occured months earlier. The lesson I learned from what happened is to NEVER enter into a deal for TiVo Lifetime Service without physically getting possesion of the TiVo box which qualified for Lifetime Service.

TiVo accepted the Lifetime Service transfer for 2 1/2 months before it (POOF!!) disappeared from my TiVo account with no notice whatsoever. The original TiVo account holder sent TiVo a fax documenting the original purchase. I contacted the police in the eBay seller's jurisdiction, halfway across the country, who said it was a civil matter and they wouldn't get involved.

Something similar happened to me, I had xfer the lifetime TiVo to my account and TiVo took it away a few weeks later, I made a big fuss and TiVo gave it back to me as Lifetime goes with the box.

[Stanley Rohner]

I contacted the police in the eBay seller's jurisdiction, halfway across the country, who said it was a civil matter and they wouldn't get involved.

Thanks for the chuckle.
:)

[wolflord11]

It aint a Criminal Matter it is a Civil one.

[rdrrepair]

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=346264

It seems like you've been going around in circles on this for a few months now. Would you mind posting a link to this sale? Did you leave negative feedback?

[Mikeyis4dcats]

It aint a Criminal Matter it is a Civil one.

It becomes a criminal matter if the seller uses USPS. Mail fraud. But FedEx, UPS, etc. don't count.

[icu_nxtime]

But don't expect much!

PayPal's Buyer Protection Policy terms (https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/policy_buyer_complaint-outside#pbp-policy).
(Keep scrolling down into the "Claims" section and on to 13.12.)



Yes, please at least post the eBay listing number.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120090018197

don't know what you can do with it !!!

I used paypal but my account is directly verified with my bank account my CC is the backup. I will contact the bank directly to see what their fraud protection is if they have any.

BTW Paypal is sticking by their original cut and paste statement. My last reply to them was I don't want a cut and paste answer, I want it explained and my questions answered with a yes or no response.

I really want them to commit to this reply so I can post it as a direct warning to all of you and everyone else that want's to listen to BEWARE of the no SERVICE or intangible protection.

Thanks

[TiVo Troll]

Unfortunately without funding from a CC you're limited to PayPal's Buyer Protection Policy which, IMHO, isn't worth much. The listing title and description clearly shows fraud on the seller's part unless he made a stupid mistake. But if he made a stupid mistake he should have squared it with you.

I notice that you posted positive Feedback for the seller. Why? Never post Feedback until a deal is completed.

Consider this thread as a major part of your warning!

(BTW, I corrected the link in post #18 (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5131667&&#post5131667) so that it connects directly to PayPal's User Agreement.)

[rdrrepair]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120090018197

don't know what you can do with it !!!

...........

BTW Paypal is sticking by their original cut and paste statement.You gave the seller good feedback. Could some of the problem stem from that as well?

Great E-bayer excellent communication fast shipping and easy to work with A+++++

[icu_nxtime]

Unfortunately it was a case where i had it shipped to a friend in the US to bring it back to Canada for me. When he got the TIVO and verified it was in the box and powered up but I never checked the subscription. Beleive me it was a lesson for me too.

My friend wasn't coming back for another week and this guy had been so good with communications before I thought it would be a done deal. I didn't find out until I got it and hooked it up in my home that I realised that there was no subscription.

Back and forth emails which I sent to paypal confirmed that he lied and was mistaken but their policy still applied as services can't be refunded :mad:

It was a learning experience and $100 certainly won't break me but it became the principal of it with the seller and now with Paypal in general.

The funny thing was 4 days before papal made their decision he had offered me the refund IF I closed the complaint. As you can't reopen the complaint once closed I would not do it as I was not sure he would actually refund my money once I closed it. Plus I was prety confident I would win my case LOL

[BruceShultes]

This has nothing to do with a dispute over a paypal purchase, but I thought I would pass on the warning.

At least twice during the last month I have received an e-mail message looking very official which says my paypal account will be suspended unless I click on the included weblink and update all of my personal information.

When I clicked on the link it transferred me to a server which did not appear to be a paypal server.

I exited my browser and forwarded the e-mail to paypal. They confirmed that the e-mail message was not sent by them.

Someone was trying to hi-jack my personal information.

Beware.

[wolflord11]

It becomes a criminal matter if the seller uses USPS. Mail fraud. But FedEx, UPS, etc. don't count.

It is only a Criminal Matter if the seller did not ship an item, or an item not described properly for example: Sells a TV, and ships a Brick.

It is not a Criminal Matter that the OP has described. You can file a report with your Local Police Department, but it will go nowhere.

It is a Civil Matter.

[TiVo Troll]

Unfortunately it was a case where i had it shipped to a friend in the US to bring it back to Canada for me. When he got the TIVO and verified it was in the box and powered up but I never checked the subscription. Beleive me it was a lesson for me too.

My friend wasn't coming back for another week and this guy had been so good with communications before I thought it would be a done deal. I didn't find out until I got it and hooked it up in my home that I realised that there was no subscription.

Back and forth emails which I sent to paypal confirmed that he lied and was mistaken but their policy still applied as services can't be refunded :mad:

It was a learning experience and $100 certainly won't break me but it became the principal of it with the seller and now with Paypal in general.

The funny thing was 4 days before papal made their decision he had offered me the refund IF I closed the complaint. As you can't reopen the complaint once closed I would not do it as I was not sure he would actually refund my money once I closed it. Plus I was prety confident I would win my case LOL

PayPal's Buyer Protection ain't wuth shhhhh......

But, it sounds as if the seller tried to make it right. It's a learning experience for everyone, I guess.
---
I bought an 80 hr. '240' S2 from a seller who said she 'forgot' to list that its remote was missing the TiVo button. I tried to fix it but didn't realize that the TiVo button can be replaced without damage only after a remote is carefully pried open after a screw is removed.

The box itself was actually DOA when I got it, but the seller agreed to acept its return for a full refund (less shipping) and said she had no idea why it was DOA. I should have just sent it back!

But I had a hunch that the DOA problem was related to the power cord socket being unusually loose in its mounting and I like to fix things. So I opened the box and found that the socket had actually broken off the circuit board. I fixed the socket connection as good as new with superglue and solder; told the seller, and left her positive Feedback. (Wiggle the plug side to side to seat it; NOT up and down!)
---
In retrospect I should have posted no Feedback or neutral Feedback.

Now I can't even give the damned TiVo away. Single tuner S2's w/o service are all but worthless nowadays because they sold brand new for close to free with all the rebates available.

[icu_nxtime]

Here is my email to Paypal

I would like you to answer the following question with a yes or no
answer !!!

Are you saying that I could now advertise my Tivo unit that I just
purchased from ebay as having lifetime service knowing it doesn't and
the buyer would have no protection because it is a service ???


Thank You

Their reply

Thank you for contacting PayPal. We apologize for the delay in responding
to your service request.

The buyer would have no protection if filing a dispute over a service.

Thank you for using PayPal for your online payment needs.

Sincerely,
XXXXX
PayPal Resolution Services
PayPal, an eBay Company


Mods please feel free to edit this in any way, and sticky it as a warning for everyone that loves Tivo and should be aware of the risks of buying service with their box. :o :down: :down: :mad:

[TiVo Troll]

Here is my email to Paypal

I would like you to answer the following question with a yes or no
answer !!!

Are you saying that I could now advertise my Tivo unit that I just
purchased from ebay as having lifetime service knowing it doesn't and
the buyer would have no protection because it is a service ???


Thank You

Their reply

Thank you for contacting PayPal. We apologize for the delay in responding
to your service request.

The buyer would have no protection if filing a dispute over a service.

Thank you for using PayPal for your online payment needs.

Sincerely,
XXXXX
PayPal Resolution Services
PayPal, an eBay Company


Mods please feel free to edit this in any way, and sticky it as a warning for everyone that loves Tivo and should be aware of the risks of buying service with their box. :o :down: :down: :mad:

As I posted earlier in this thread, PayPal's Buyer Protection Policy isn't worth shhh......... (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5131667&&#post5131667)

ALWAYS fund eBay PayPal purchases with a credit card and dispute any charges through the CC, not PayPal!