Gizmodo rumor regarding <$300 HDTivo

[calitivo]

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/take-this-comcast-dvr%2C-please/rumor-tivo-releasing-sub+300-hd-recorder-this-fall-256576.php

"There's not much confirmation of this yet, but a source is telling us that TiVo is planning on releasing a Series 3-like HD recorder some time this fall. Whether this will have dual-tuners like the Series 3 is still unknown, but we're sure it will be gimped in some way in order to maintain interest in the higher-priced model."

I guess a single tuner S3 makes sense if they can produce them cheap enough.

[Arcady]

Single tuner. Subtract $35. Where do you get a $300 box from that?

More BS from Gizmodo.

[lessd]

Single tuner. Subtract $35. Where do you get a $300 box from that?

More BS from Gizmodo.

Manufacturing cost is not the only thing that sets List price, I would guess the current Series 3 cost about $250 to make so if you saved $35 on a tuner $50 on a drive (put in a 120G drive) use a normal remote not include HDMI cable you could get close to $150 in cost, and try not to make so much money on the unit you could have a $450 box with $150 rebate. Who knows...........

[bkdtv]

I doubt the software functionality will be any different, but they'll probably drop the display on the front, and possibly the SATA connector if they haven't had any luck with Cable Labs. They'll also eliminate the second CableCard slot, which is no longer needed to support multi-tuner with CableCard 2.0 (MCards).

The current Tivo Series3 is based on hardware that Broadcom released back in 2005. Broadcom has since released several solutions at equal or lower cost with substantially greater performance.

Tivo Series3
BCM7038 (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7038-PB01-R.pdf) (130nm, 420 DMIPS) + BCM7411 (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7411-PB07-R.pdf)

Newer Broadcom solutions
BCM7400D (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7400-PB05-R.pdf) (65nm (http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=970100), 1000 DMIPS, SATA2 3.0Gbps disk interface, faster bus, DDR2 memory controller, HDMI 1.3 MAC/PHY, on-chip MCARD support)
BCM7401 (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7401-PB03-R.pdf) (130nm, 450 DMIPs, integrates BCM7038 and BCM7411 onto a single chip)If they want to offer a "Deluxe" edition with high-quality 1080p output -- great for picture quality and marketing -- they could add a $15 Silicon Optix ReonVX VX-50 (http://www.siliconoptix.com/contentEngine/dspDocumentDownload.cfm?PCVID=2d4893ca-f663-2e08-c62e-314dbfaf0518).

[jbrasure]

Manufacturing cost is not the only thing that sets List price, I would guess the current Series 3 cost about $250 to make so if you saved $35 on a tuner $50 on a drive (put in a 120G drive) use a normal remote not include HDMI cable you could get close to $150 in cost, and try not to make so much money on the unit you could have a $450 box with $150 rebate. Who knows...........

I second that opinion. Hardware costs have almost nothing to do with product pricing.

[sfhub]

I second that opinion. Hardware costs have almost nothing to do with product pricing.
That's not what he said.

[c3]

Manufacturing cost is not the only thing that sets List price, I would guess the current Series 3 cost about $250 to make so if you saved $35 on a tuner $50 on a drive (put in a 120G drive) use a normal remote not include HDMI cable you could get close to $150 in cost, and try not to make so much money on the unit you could have a $450 box with $150 rebate. Who knows...........

The difference betwen 120GB and 250GB is much much less than $50. My guess is $10-$15. HDMI cable should be <$2. Using S2 remote, maybe $5-$10.

[GoHokies!]

That isn't news around here - Tom Rogers has said that they're looking at a new product to help bring Tivo the mass-market HD crowd.

Early March discussion thread:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=343537

There were a handful of others, both here in the Coffee House.

I'm still thinking (or wishfully hoping) that it will be some type of a firewire based product that receives the digital video stream and controls a cable box via a firewire connection. The only drawback I can see would be to have dual tuners, you would either need two cable boxes or the new box would still have to have a tuner in it (similar to a S2DT setup).

This would eliminate the whole 2-way cablecard mess, cover SDV very nicely and allow you to tune into VOD and PPV for the people that like that sort of thing.

[bkdtv]

I'm still thinking (or wishfully hoping) that it will be some type of a firewire based product that receives the digital video stream and controls a cable box via a firewire connection. The only drawback I can see would be to have dual tuners, you would either need two cable boxes or the new box would still have to have a tuner in it (similar to a S2DT setup).As discussed in those threads, a Tivo DVR that relies on Firewire connectivity is never going to happen. It makes Tivo functionality highly dependent upon correct flagging by the cable company. It requires the customer to lease a separate STB and it can't directly control STB and VOD menus, so the customer will have to fumble with multiple remotes when they want to do more than change the channel. And as you mention, you lose the ability to record two different programs while you watch another, a standard feature on the Tivo Series3 and every other cable co DVR.

A year or two ago, there was substantial interest in Firewire because people wanted to record content to their PCs. Now, most cable providers flag their digital simulcast as "copy once" and their VOD/PPV as "copy never," which eliminates the ability to record that digital content directly to most PCs, which are not 5C authorized.

[GoHokies!]

2 remotes to do VOD is better than not doing VOD at all, though. And if the digital simulcasts are labeled "copy once" won't that pose just as much problem for a Tivo using cable cards as it will for a firewire Tivo?

Tivo customers are now required to lease a STB or cable cards for digital content, so that wouldn't be a new requirement...

I'm just not seeing where the drawbacks would be, and by offloading a lot of the tasks to an external device the box can be made much cheaper, as it would just have to take the digital stream off of the firewire port and put it to disk.

[bkdtv]

And if the digital simulcasts are labeled "copy once" won't that pose just as much problem for a Tivo using cable cards as it will for a firewire Tivo?No. Al digital cable channels on probably 90% of U.S. cable systems are now marked "copy once." That doesn't impact recording to a DVR, although it might affect TivoToGo. Only the broadcast networks are typically marked "copy freely."

VOD and PPV is often marked "copy never," but 5C rules allow that content to be timeshifted by a DVR by 45 minutes, IIRC, so in theory, even that content could be played on a Tivo. In practice, I believe some Firewire implementations simple disable output for VOD and PPV.

Regardless, you still have the problem of menu access, since menus can't be navigated with IEEE1394 commands.

I'm just not seeing where the drawbacks would be, and by offloading a lot of the tasks to an external device the box can be made much cheaper, as it would just have to take the digital stream off of the firewire port and put it to disk.What tasks are you offloading? You're just swapping two chips (tuners) for one (IEEE1394).

[pkscout]

I doubt the software functionality will be any different, but they'll probably drop the display on the front, and possibly the SATA connector if they haven't had any luck with Cable Labs. They'll also eliminate the second CableCard slot, which is no longer needed to support multi-tuner with CableCard 2.0 (MCards).

Given that I don't think we have any confirmation of any cable company supporting the MCards, having only one cablecard could shrink the potential market, not grow it. Unless they're going to wait until 2008 or 2009 (or maybe when Satan lives in an Igloo) for the cable companies to do anything with Mcards or CableCard 2.0.

[CrispyCritter]

No. Al digital cable channels on probably 90% of U.S. cable systems are now marked "copy once." Do you have any cite for that?

My local Comcast in a reasonably major market with complete simulcast marks extremely few shows with "copy once". I have only one recorded show on my TiVo at the moment that is marked with copy restrictions. That's with probably a couple dozen HBO and Cinemax shows as well as lots of other non-network shows. But I realize that this is just my anecdotal evidence.

[GoHokies!]

No. Al digital cable channels on probably 90% of U.S. cable systems are now marked "copy once." That doesn't impact recording to a DVR, although it might affect TivoToGo. Only the broadcast networks are typically marked "copy freely."

VOD and PPV is often marked "copy never," but 5C rules allow that content to be timeshifted by a DVR by 45 minutes, IIRC, so in theory, even that content could be played on a Tivo. In practice, I believe some Firewire implementations simple disable output for VOD and PPV.

Regardless, you still have the problem of menu access, since menus can't be navigated with IEEE1394 commands.

What tasks are you offloading? You're just swapping two chips (tuners) for one (IEEE1394).
Like Crispy Critter, I think that you're mistaken about the copy once. I think that the large volume of people that are using Tivo To Go (if it's labeled copy once, the S2 would have to honor that, no?) shows that you're mistaken.

So what if you can't have menu access via 1394? If you have a cablecard Tivo you're not going to have access anyways, right? So if the 1394 port just gets shut off when you're watching VOD or PPV, how is that any different from not even being able to use these features at all with the current S3?

You hit the nail on the head about the tasks offloading - I would think that it would be far cheaper to build a box to take a digital stream off of a firewire port than it would be to have the cable inupts, RF equipment and tuners required in the S3.

[sfhub]

No. Al digital cable channels on probably 90% of U.S. cable systems are now marked "copy once." That doesn't impact recording to a DVR, although it might affect TivoToGo.
Just to be clear, it isn't "Copy Once". It is "Copy One-Generation".

[AbMagFab]

The S2 isn't making direct digital copies, so it doesn't abide by anything.

[GoHokies!]

The S2 isn't making direct digital copies, so it doesn't abide by anything.I think that the folks at macrovision would disagree with you. The mechanism is different, but the end result would be the same.

[bkdtv]

Given that I don't think we have any confirmation of any cable company supporting the MCards, having only one cablecard could shrink the potential market, not grow it. Unless they're going to wait until 2008 or 2009 (or maybe when Satan lives in an Igloo) for the cable companies to do anything with Mcards or CableCard 2.0.The new CableCard STBs and DVRs -- which cable companies are required to deploy starting July 1 --- use a single M-Card. Motorola ended production (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=348776) of the older S-Cards (CableCard 1.0) last month. All new Motorola shipments to cable providers consist of M-Cards.

Like Crispy Critter, I think that you're mistaken about the copy once. I think that the large volume of people that are using Tivo To Go (if it's labeled copy once, the S2 would have to honor that, no?) shows that you're mistaken.We're talking about the FCC mandate and what it allows cable companies to do with digital signals, and how that could possibly impact a future Tivo. FCC mandate does not prohibit a consumer or Tivo from making multiple copies of an analog cable broadcast. FCC mandate does prohibit a consumer from making multiple copies of a digital cable broadcast flagged as "copy one generation." These 5C flags apply only to digital channels.

[GoHokies!]

We're talking about the FCC mandate and what it allows cable companies to do with digital signals, and how that could possibly impact a future Tivo. FCC mandate does not prohibit a consumer or Tivo from making multiple copies of an analog cable broadcast. FCC mandate does prohibit a consumer from making multiple copies of a digital cable broadcast flagged as "copy one generation." These 5C flags apply only to digital channels.No, we're talking about your assertation that 90% of channels are copy once/one-generation. It isn't a true statement, unless Crispy Critter and I are in the 10% minority. You may be able to talk around the data I have to back up my claims, but you haven't even brought any to the table.

You're right - copy one-generation 5C flag applies to only digital channels. That's all well and good, but that flag isn't being applied in the far flung manner that you are saying it is.

[missiontortilla]

It would be cool if they released a lighter HD TiVo if it had MRV enabled with the real S3, then I would get one for the bedroom. Even if it had 1 tuner only and a smaller hard drive it would still meet my needs perfectly. Then I would have 3 HD tuners within DVR devices. Please make it so TiVo!

[bkdtv]

No, we're talking about your assertation that 90% of channels are copy once/one-generation. It isn't a true statement, unless Crispy Critter and I are in the 10% minority. You may be able to talk around the data I have to back up my claims, but you haven't even brought any to the table.

You're right - copy one-generation 5C flag applies to only digital channels. That's all well and good, but that flag isn't being applied in the far flung manner that you are saying it is.I think you are in the minority. FiOS applies the flag to 100% of its cable channels. Comcast in this area does as well. There certainly are exceptions, but my understanding is that Comcast intends to mark all cable (as opposed to local) channels with the "copy one generation" flag. Last I heard, Comcast was doing that in Chicago, where they are reducing their analog carriage from 69 -> 34 channels. A lot of people weren't happy about that, because they lost the analog channels and weren't able to copy the digital versions with their MythTV setup.

Go to the MythTV boards and you'll find this is very common. There are lots of complaints from people who invested in such hardware to record digital simulcast, who were no longer able to do so when Comcast applied those flags in the past six months.

[sfhub]

prohibit a consumer from making multiple copies of a digital cable broadcast flagged as "copy one generation." These 5C flags apply only to digital channels.
You are *not* prevented from making (using approved equipment) multiple copies of digital content flagged as "copy one generation". You are prevented from making a copy of a copy when content is flagged as "copy one generation"

[pkscout]

I think you are in the minority. FiOS applies the flag to 100% of its cable channels. Comcast in this area does as well. There certainly are expectations, but my understanding is that Comcast intends to mark all cable (as opposed to local) channels with the "copy one generation" flag. Last I heard, Comcast was doing that in Chicago, where they are reducing their analog carriage from 69 -> 34 channels. A lot of people weren't happy about that, because they lost the analog channels and weren't able to copy the digital versions with their MythTV setup.

I think he's not in the minority. Neither Cox nor TWC apply the flag to "all" their digital channels. So Verizon does as does Comcast. Neither Cox nor TWC do. Hmmm. Looks like a toss up. I guess AT&T is the tie breaker. ;)

[Roderigo]

You are *not* prevented from making (using approved equipment) multiple copies of digital content flagged as "copy one generation". You are prevented from making a copy of a copy when content is flagged as "copy one generation"
Isn't the recording itself the "one generation" copy - thus, it can't be copied again?

[samo]

I think he's not in the minority. Neither Cox nor TWC apply the flag to "all" their digital channels. So Verizon does as does Comcast. Neither Cox nor TWC do. Hmmm. Looks like a toss up. I guess AT&T is the tie breaker. ;)
Didn't Comcast buy AT&T cable years ago? I seem to remember 5:1 share swap.

[SullyND]

Didn't Comcast buy AT&T cable years ago? I seem to remember 5:1 share swap.

Yes. AT&T offers TV via it's "Uverse" service, which is their competitor (weak though it seemingly may be) to FIOS.

[mattack]

The new CableCard STBs and DVRs -- which cable companies are required to deploy starting July 1 --- use a single M-Card. Motorola ended production (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=348776) of the older S-Cards (CableCard 1.0) last month. All new Motorola shipments to cable providers consist of M-Cards.

Does that mean on July 1 we can ask for an M card for our series 3? Then I'd only need one card and not two, right? (currently I have none.)

[rainwater]

Does that mean on July 1 we can ask for an M card for our series 3? Then I'd only need one card and not two, right? (currently I have none.)

The Tivo software doesn't support M-Cards except in single mode at this point. At some point the S3 will support a single M-card.

[wierdo]

Isn't the recording itself the "one generation" copy - thus, it can't be copied again?
No. The original recording to the DVR does not count. A second generation copy gets a different flag that indicates it can't be copied again.

[sfhub]

Isn't the recording itself the "one generation" copy - thus, it can't be copied again?
Apparently that is correct and I was mistaken.

It just seemed so much more logical to make the permanent storage on TiVo the "original" and denegrate further output to "copy no more"

[bkdtv]

You are *not* prevented from making (using approved equipment) multiple copies of digital content flagged as "copy one generation". You are prevented from making a copy of a copy when content is flagged as "copy one generation"No. The original recording to the DVR does not count. A second generation copy gets a different flag that indicates it can't be copied again.That's not my understanding, but my interpretation could be wrong. CableCard 2.0 specification appended below:

COPY ONE GENERATION

OCDVR-12: Content received by the OCDVR CCI-marked COPY ONE GENERATION SHALL be
permitted to be recorded permanently if the content is written to the TSB and is CCImarked
COPY NO MORE when moved from the TSB to an OCDVR output.

OCDVR-13: Content received by the OCDVR CCI-marked COPY ONE GENERATION SHALL be
permitted to be recorded permanently if the content is written directly to permanent
storage bypassing the TSB.

OCDVR-14: Content received by the OCDVR CCI-marked COPY ONE GENERATION that is recorded
into permanent storage SHALL be CCI-marked as COPY NO MORE and retain this CCI
marking when the content is moved from permanent storage to an OCDVR output.

OCDVR-15: Content received by the OCDVR CCI-marked COPY ONE GENERATION SHALL NOT be
recorded permanently if the content is written to the TSB and retains the CCI marking of
COPY ONE GENERATION when moved from the TSB to an OCDVR output.

OCDVR-16: Content received by the OCDVR CCI-marked COPY ONE GENERATION SHALL be
encrypted according to the approved method while residing in a Time Shift Buffer.

OCDVR-17: Content received by the OCDVR CCI-marked COPY ONE GENERATION SHALL be
encrypted according to the approved method when moved to permanent storage.COPY NO MORE

OCDVR-18: Content received by the OCDVR CCI-marked COPY NO MORE SHALL NOT be recorded
permanently.

OCDVR-19: Content received by the OCDVR CCI-marked COPY NO MORE when received by the
OCDVR SHALL be encrypted according to the approved method while residing in a Time
Shift Buffer.

OCDVR-20: Content received by the OCDVR CCI-marked COPY NO MORE SHALL NOT persist in a
Time Shift Buffer for a period longer than 90 minutes. After this time, content SHALL be
rendered inaccessible on a minute-by-minute basis starting with the oldest recorded
content.

OCDVR-21: Content received by the OCDVR CCI-marked COPY NO MORE SHALL be CCI-marked
COPY NO MOREThis specification uses the following abbreviations:
APS Analog Protection System
CA Conditional Access
CCI Copy Control Information
CBR Constant Bit Rate
EMI Encryption Mode Indicator
OCDVR OpenCable Digital Video Recorder
TSB Time Shift Buffer
VBI Vertical Blanking Interval
VBR Variable Bit Rate

[sfhub]

I ended up correcting myself in the post right before yours.

It is interesting to note with the definition that TiVo's copy being "the" 1st gen copy, the definition of "Copy no more" and "Copy never" in the opencable spec ends up being virtually the exact same wording and behavior.

[GoHokies!]

I ended up correcting myself in the post right before yours.

It is interesting to note with the definition that TiVo's copy being "the" 1st gen copy, the definition of "Copy no more" and "Copy never" in the opencable spec ends up being virtually the exact same wording and behavior.
Not really - the Copy Never comes out to be that it can be timeshifted, but not saved forever. The PPV that people see with the 90 minute expiration has the copy never flag. The copy once program will get to stay on your hard drive until you delete it.

BKDTV, I think that it's safe to say that neither of us know how far spread the copy once flag is being applied. It seems to be that whether it's recorded on a S3 or my idea for a firewire Tivo, in either case the copy once flag is going to break TTG (so once we get this on the S3 we'll see just how widespread it is now).

To bring all of this back on point, it sounds like the firewire won't have much of an advantage over a regular Tivo, with the exception of cost (although how how much is debatable) and not being affected by SDV (which is reason enough to pursue it in my book). It sounds like the only drawback would be that dual tuner functionality (which has got to be a requirement to compete with the cable companies) would be difficult and/or expensive.

[lessd]

The difference betwen 120GB and 250GB is much much less than $50. My guess is $10-$15. HDMI cable should be <$2. Using S2 remote, maybe $5-$10.

So the Series 3 only cost about what $85 to make ?? If so TiVo can sell it at any price they want.

[sfhub]

Not really - the Copy Never comes out to be that it can be timeshifted, but not saved forever. The PPV that people see with the 90 minute expiration has the copy never flag. The copy once program will get to stay on your hard drive until you delete it.
According to the open cable spec, "Copy No More" can be timeshifted, but not saved forever. If you had 2 content physically on your TiVo (let's say through Amazon unbox) marked "Copy No More" and "Copy Never", according to the open cable spec, they would behave the same. If you had 2 content broadcast to your TiVo marked "Copy No More" and "Copy Never" they would behave the same.

Basically what I said was with the definition of TiVo's copy being "the" 1st gen copy, "Copy No More" and "Copy Never" have virtually the same definition. This is the OC DVR spec for "Copy No More" and "Copy Never". The text is virtually the same. It seems all that "Copy No More" tells you is the content originally may have come from "Copy One-Generation" and that's how it got on your box. The rules regarding storage to permanent storage and TSB are exactly the same.
http://www.opencable.com/downloads/specs/OC-SP-HOST2-DVREXT-I01-050502.pdf

The open cable spec may have meant to say that "Copy No More" can be moved but "Copy Never" cannot be moved, but that is not how they wrote the definition. Maybe it is just a copy/paste oversight in the specs.

5.2.2.3 COPY NO MORE
OCDVR-18: Content received by the OCDVR CCI-marked COPY NO MORE SHALL NOT be recorded
permanently.
OCDVR-19: Content received by the OCDVR CCI-marked COPY NO MORE when received by the
OCDVR SHALL be encrypted according to the approved method while residing in a Time
Shift Buffer.
OCDVR-20: Content received by the OCDVR CCI-marked COPY NO MORE SHALL NOT persist in a
Time Shift Buffer for a period longer than 90 minutes. After this time, content SHALL be
rendered inaccessible on a minute-by-minute basis starting with the oldest recorded
content.
OCDVR-21: Content received by the OCDVR CCI-marked COPY NO MORE SHALL be CCI-marked
COPY NO MORE when the content is moved from the Time Shift Buffer to an OCDVR
output.

5.2.2.4 COPY NEVER
OCDVR-22: Content received by the OCDVR CCI-marked COPY NEVER SHALL NOT be recorded
permanently.
OCDVR-23: Content received by the OCDVR CCI-marked COPY NEVER SHALL be encrypted
according to the approved method while residing in a Time Shift Buffer.
OCDVR-24: Content received by the OCDVR CCI-marked COPY NEVER SHALL NOT persist in a Time
Shift Buffer for a period longer than 90 minutes. After this time, content SHALL be
rendered inaccessible on a minute-by-minute basis starting with the oldest recorded
content.
OCDVR-25: Content received by the OCDVR CCI-marked COPY NEVER SHALL be CCI-marked COPY
NEVER when the content is moved from the Time Shift Buffer to an OCDVR output

[ciucca]

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/take-this-comcast-dvr%2C-please/rumor-tivo-releasing-sub+300-hd-recorder-this-fall-256576.php

"There's not much confirmation of this yet, but a source is telling us that TiVo is planning on releasing a Series 3-like HD recorder some time this fall. Whether this will have dual-tuners like the Series 3 is still unknown, but we're sure it will be gimped in some way in order to maintain interest in the higher-priced model."

I guess a single tuner S3 makes sense if they can produce them cheap enough.

Single Tuner? 120GB Hard Drive? Who's running this company? They better partner up their S3 with a service provider or eat the hardware cost and make money on subscription or they are in trouble.

On second thought, hmm thats the ticket, take anyway the only useful features to lower the price! My short position is looking a whole lot better :D

[c3]

So the Series 3 only cost about what $85 to make ?? If so TiVo can sell it at any price they want.

That's not what I said. I was talking about the price differences.

[bkdtv]

GoHokies!,

I think we're in agreement.

The open cable spec may have meant to say that "Copy No More" can be moved but "Copy Never" cannot be moved, but that is not how they wrote the definition. Maybe it is just a copy/paste oversight in the specs.Based on those two sections, it doesn't look like TivoToGo will ever be permissable for content flagged as "copy one generation." In the past, TivoCommunity members have proposed that Tivo could delete the recording off the DVR as part of the TivoToGo transfer process, but the OpenCable 2.0 specification doesn't seem to have any provision that would allow for such a thing.

[CrispyCritter]

Manufacturing cost is not the only thing that sets List price, I would guess the current Series 3 cost about $250 to make so if you saved $35 on a tuner $50 on a drive (put in a 120G drive) use a normal remote not include HDMI cable you could get close to $150 in cost, and try not to make so much money on the unit you could have a $450 box with $150 rebate. Who knows...........I strongly suspect it costs a lot more to make an S3. An 80-hour Series 2 Single tuner was probably about $160 to make (based on watching their accounting hardware costs over the past 5 years) I would put that base cost of an S3 at about $400 plus an extra $50-100 for this beginning period due to a very liberal return policy.

[sfhub]

Based on those two sections, it doesn't look like TivoToGo will ever be permissable for content flagged as "copy one generation." In the past, TivoCommunity members have proposed that Tivo could delete the recording off the DVR as part of the TivoToGo transfer process, but the OpenCable 2.0 specification doesn't seem to have any provision that would allow for such a thing.
Reading further, there is another applicable section that addresses moving content. The purpose of "Copy No More" vs "Copy Never" apparently is to denote content that *was originally received* as "Copy One Generation" because the former can be moved if the original is "rendered inaccessible" prior to the move completing. It is a little confusing that the definition of "Copy Never" seems to imply moves are possible also, but the section describing moves doesn't specify "Copy Never" content.

With that section, it sounds like they can implement TTG and MRV. Note, it doesn't say the original needs to be deleted, just "rendered inaccessible", so MRV can make a stored copy on the new machine, marking the original as inaccessible (but still showing up in Now Playing) and when you try to play back on the original unit, it would need to mark the MRV copy "inaccessible" That way the original unit can have nice fast instant playback without doing the whole buffering thing again.

5.3.3 Moving of recorded content
OCDVR-31: Recorded content originally received by the OCDVR CCI-marked COPY ONE
GENERATION SHALL only be moved from permanent storage to an external recording
device according to the Compliance Rules in section 3.5.2 in Exhibit C of [CHILA] and
summarized here:
(a) the external recording device indicates that it is authorized to perform this Move
function in accordance with [CHILA];
(b) such content is marked for transmission by the OCDVR as COPY ONE GENERATION;
(c) the CCI-marked content is output over a protected output in accordance with [CHILA];
(d) before the Move is completed, the originating OCDVR recording is rendered
inaccessible and the moved CCI-marked content is marked COPY NO MORE.
Informative note: The device to which the removable recording medium is moved needs to be unable or
rendered unable to output the CCI-marked content except through outputs authorized by
[CHILA], and the copy needs to be stored using an encryption protocol, approved by
CableLabs, that uniquely associates such copy with a single device so that it cannot be
played on another device or, if stored to removable media, so that no further usable
copies may be made thereof.

[smark]

There will be some channels changing frequencies this month for those of you not using cable cards and are using your S3 to get the unencrypted HD (or even if you just have a TV with an HD tuner).

Channels being KIRO HD 117, KIRO HD 107, KONG HD 106 , KCPQ HD 113, and CW HD 111. Those using Cable Cards shouldn't be affected.

[ashu]

There will be some channels changing frequencies this month for those of you not using cable cards and are using your S3 to get the unencrypted HD (or even if you just have a TV with an HD tuner).

Channels being KIRO HD 117, KIRO HD 107, KONG HD 106 , KCPQ HD 113, and CW HD 111. Those using Cable Cards shouldn't be affected.

Excellent, useful info - but are you SURE you meant to post it in THIS thread? :)

[bkdtv]

5.3.3 Moving of recorded contentNice find, I missed that.

[classicsat]

IMO, have 250GB in the S3 Lite, and put something larger in the Series 3 Classsic, or a new Series 3 model. Use the newer integrated MPEG4 chip.

[smark]

Excellent, useful info - but are you SURE you meant to post it in THIS thread? :)

Blargh. I had two windows open. I will repost this lol.

[morac]

I think you are in the minority. FiOS applies the flag to 100% of its cable channels. Comcast in this area does as well. There certainly are exceptions, but my understanding is that Comcast intends to mark all cable (as opposed to local) channels with the "copy one generation" flag. Last I heard, Comcast was doing that in Chicago, where they are reducing their analog carriage from 69 -> 34 channels. A lot of people weren't happy about that, because they lost the analog channels and weren't able to copy the digital versions with their MythTV setup.
I don't think Comcast intends to flag all digital channels as "copy once" and even if they are they really aren't allowed to do so. In my area when I got my S3 they were already flagged as "copy once" (CCI Byte 0x2) and I ended up complaining to Comcast as well as the NJ-BPU that Comcast was blocking the ability to copy "Cable in the Classroom" programming when the providers had given explicit permission (basically that Comcast was overriding the content provider's wishes). Within a few weeks, the CCI Byte changed to 0 and everything was copy freely except for pay channels. This has happened in a number of areas, so if anything Comcast is clearing the "copy one generation' flag, not setting it. See this thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=341483).

[Justin Thyme]

While trawling for info in a Cupertino bar, I also heard a new Tivo would be coming out in the fall. But from what I could make out, it will be much different than the tivo so crisply described in the Gizmodo rumor.

Toshiba will come out with an HD DVD w/ Tivo Inside® leveraging the same BCM7411 playback engine shared by the A1 &A2 and S3.

Because most of the expensive manufacturing costs are shared, the combined product will cost far less that the sum of an S3 and an HD DVD.

Regretably, I too could get no confirmation on this rumor, or the one about TivoPony being especially partial to plaid underwear.

Sorry folks. I guess we'll just have to wait anxiously as details unfold regarding these mysteriousities.

[b55er]

A low cost HD TiVo is in DVT testing as we speak.

Got this from an insider at TiVo, Inc.

[bkdtv]

A low cost HD TiVo is in DVT testing as we speak.

Got this from an insider at TiVo, Inc.I really hope they are using the BCM7400D and not the BCM7401, because the BCM7401 drops the second SATA port for external storage. Last week, that wasn't a big deal...but it's a pretty big deal now that the eSATA port on the Tivo Series3 actually works.