Why is it taking SOOOOO Long for Approval?

[Bighouse]

I don't get it. Can someone from TiVo or CableLabs who visits this venue please enlighten me as to why it is taking SO long to get approval for MRV, eSata and TTG? I don't get it honestly. In my business world, when someone asks for shop drawings to be reviewed and approved, there might be a two or three week turn around from the start to the approval...but four or more months???

I'm starting to feel like it will NEVER happen. And it's really taking the shine off my S3 thinking that quite a few of the features I bought it for may never be available on what should be considered the flagship (read: most features) product from TiVo Inc.. Imagine buying a car from any car manufacturer, only to find that the radio, the power steering, the GPS system, the air conditioner are all there, but are awaiting approval from some group before they can be activated.

Somethings seriously wrong with this process if it takes THIS long to approve something that should be a very quick process of review and approval.

Are lawyers involved? Are there court cases that take time? Was it really submitted for approval? Is CableLabs reluctant to grant the approval? What gives?

[MichaelK]

short answer is cablelabs only has 180 days to approve or deny an application. So it's clear tivo didn't apply untill some point after the fall began.

There's a couple other threads discussing why that is:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=342733

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5009398&&#post5009398

[CheezWiz]

I don't get it. Can someone from TiVo or CableLabs who visits this venue please enlighten me as to why it is taking SO long to get approval for MRV, eSata and TTG? I don't get it honestly. In my business world, when someone asks for shop drawings to be reviewed and approved, there might be a two or three week turn around from the start to the approval...but four or more months???

I'm starting to feel like it will NEVER happen. And it's really taking the shine off my S3 thinking that quite a few of the features I bought it for may never be available on what should be considered the flagship (read: most features) product from TiVo Inc.. Imagine buying a car from any car manufacturer, only to find that the radio, the power steering, the GPS system, the air conditioner are all there, but are awaiting approval from some group before they can be activated.

Somethings seriously wrong with this process if it takes THIS long to approve something that should be a very quick process of review and approval.

Are lawyers involved? Are there court cases that take time? Was it really submitted for approval? Is CableLabs reluctant to grant the approval? What gives?

Please see my thread here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=342733

save yourself from the flames for asking a valid question...

[MichaelK]

Also- not to freak you even more but while it's clear tivo didn't officially apply anytime before Septemper- it's not so clear that they have even officially applied TODAY.

there's some nebulous quotes, statements about 'in discussions' or 'working with' or ' working to approve' but I have yet to see a statement that clearly says "tivo has officially applied for X feature set and the 180 day clock is running"


We all Hope and Assume that at least some things have been applied for but we just dont KNOW that....

[MichaelK]

one day if/when the tructh comes out it will be interesting to see what really went on....

[Justin Thyme]

Hmmm. Maybe the referees for this game should not be from one of the teams playing on the field.

Wild thought.

[Bighouse]

short answer is cablelabs only has 180 days to approve or deny an application. So it's clear tivo didn't apply untill some point after the fall began.

There's a couple other threads discussing why that is:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=342733

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5009398&&#post5009398

Thanks, I'll go read those threads. But, even at 180 days (6 months) I would assume that if they applied for approval BEFORE they released their product- which would certainly make sense- then that 6 months should be OVER by now. So, I guess that would mean that TiVo didn't apply for FULL approval before they made the S3 publicly available for purchase, or that they are applying for separate approvals for different features, or they were denied approval and have to change things and resubmit for approval...because by my calendar, 180 days should have elapsed by now!

[Greeble]

I'm assuming they applied and failed, but cablelabs said you failed for x,y,z fix/change these issues and we were rereview your application. (and you have to wain another 6 months)

[GoHokies!]

I'm assuming they applied and failed, but cablelabs said you failed for x,y,z fix/change these issues and we were rereview your application. (and you have to wain another 6 months)
That dovetails nicely with the CEO's statement a few months ago that they were working on making these features available in some form in the near future.

Further details in some of the linked threads.

[Bighouse]

I'm assuming they applied and failed, but cablelabs said you failed for x,y,z fix/change these issues and we were rereview your application. (and you have to wain another 6 months)

Hmmm...I'll bet anything this is really the case. So, what that means is that if they deny approval for X, Y or Z items again, and again, it won't be long until three, four and more years have elapsed and the whole issue will be dead because our boxes will be long overdue for newer technological replacements.

Meanwhile TiVo will say "We're working on it"...

[dt_dc]

I don't get it. Can someone from TiVo or CableLabs who visits this venue please enlighten me as to why it is taking SO long to get approval for MRV, eSata and TTG?BTW, you might want to look over what DTLA (Hitachi, Intel, Matsushita, Sony, and Toshiba) have gone through trying to get DTCP-IP approved as an authorized digital output content protection technology ... especially as a comparison to MRV (for moving protected content off the S3 to other devices).

http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518913681

http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518913682

A little paraphrasing / summarizing of the first document ... but ...http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518913681

On April 17, 2005, DTLA submitted to CableLabs a request to approve DTCP-IP as an authorized digital output content protection technology.

Early in June 2005, CableLabs produced its preliminary assessment of the DTLA proposal. CableLabs voiced no concern about theft of service, harm to the cable network, or security of content within the home. However, CableLabs stated that, under its criteria, it was insufficient for DTLA only to propose a content protection technology. CableLabs contended that its content protection approval criteria also imposed responsibility on DTLA to create for CableLabs the technical “video transport” protocol by which audiovisual-related information would be transmitted via Internet Protocol from a cable box to the television (or other devices). (...) DTLA requested, as a compromise, approval of DTCP-IP conditioned upon development of an acceptable video transport. CableLabs refused.

In July 2005, the Motion Picture Association of America provided a letter to CableLabs urging prompt approval of DTCP-IP (Ed. with certain conditions / changes / suggestions attached).

Although DTLA continued to object, DTLA members hoped that cooperation with CableLabs would speed the path to approval. Individual DTLA Founders collaborated in consultation with CableLabs to create an IP-based video transport for CableLabs, and completed in October 2005 a draft protocol referred to as Multimedia Transport over Internet Protocol (“MTIP”). MTIP was based on the CableLabs draft Digital Receiver Interface (“DRI”) specification, with added quality of service components.

Notwithstanding this cooperative effort, in November 2005, CableLabs decided unilaterally to change direction and, instead, to develop on its own a different approach.

In December 2005, CableLabs met with several DTLA Founders to discuss potential solutions to this impasse, without apparent success.

On March 5, 2006, some five months beyond the six-month decision period specified in the DFAST license, CableLabs informed DTLA that it would be willing to “provisionally” approve DTCP-IP conditioned upon DTLA (a) accepting a different CableLabs-proposed DRI-based specification and (b) imposing on DTCP Adopters new license obligations on behalf of CableLabs.

(Ed. discussions / negotiations continue).

DTLA counter-proposed an alternative approach suitable for link protection technologies. (DTLA Letter to CableLabs, dated March 14, 2006, attached as Exhibit 7.)

DTLA’s counter-proposal was rejected by CableLabs. Although CableLabs agreed to relieve DTLA from requiring these onerous provisions in its Adopter Agreement, CableLabs instead said it would cut-and-paste all the unreasonable requirements into the DFAST license and make them conditions for using DTCP-IP. (CableLabs letter to DTLA, March 29, 2006, attached as Exhibit 8. Further, CableLabs proposed a "side letter" imposing additional commitments on DTLA that would have given CableLabs greater change management rights than DTLA's Content Participants, and cable operators greater latitude under DTLA's Encoding Rules than motion picture producers and content owners obtained under the DTLA "IP Statement.)

DTLA sent a list of questions to CableLabs on April 20, 2006, attached as Exhibit 9. Through telephonic discussions and correspondence (attached as Exhibit 10), CableLabs made clear it would not remove the unacceptable license conditions, thus necessitating this appeal.

(Ed. I would assume discussions / negotiations continue, but no further direct comments / exhibits / dates.)

(Ed. DTLA submits appeal to the FCC February 26, 2007.)Note: The above is from DTLA's summary / appeal ... haven't seen a (detailed) response from CableLabs.

[Bighouse]

So, this is probably the endless rejection/appeal process for portions of their technology that TiVo must be embroiled in as well. All CL has to do is to toss in some (probably mutually incompatible) requirement for any bit of the features we want, and TiVo has to again redesign software (if possible!) and resubmit...and fail...and resubmit...and fail...

I have now lost any faith that eSata, MRV or TTG will ever find their way into my S3.

[hornblowercat]

I think it's just an evil plot developed by TiVo. They desperately want to show how stupid their faithful customers are so they've developed an idea to sell this expensive piece of hardware and make all kinds of plans that they have no intention of keeping. Oh they'll throw us a bond every now and then like TiVoCast on Unbox but their real plan is to hold off on the really good stuff until SDV takes over cable. At that time the S3 will be useless anyways and that's when they will release TTG and MRV and eSATA. They will also release the S4 with dual cable cards just to really show all of of S3 owners how stupiid we were in having faith in them in the first place.

Then every doom and gloom naysayer can then point their fingers at us and say "see, I told you so." We will all be so embarrassed we will never show our faces on the internet again. S3's will be thrown out of sky scraper apartments in New York City. S3 owners will gather together and burn their S3's and say "never again TiVo!" Everyone will go to their cable company and get their pos box and think of what may have been.

Yes people it's all a plot. An evil plot hatched by people like TiVoPony, TivoJerry and others. :rolleyes:

[missiontortilla]

If you just call TiVo and ask when those features will be available I am sure you will get the answer you are looking for... 2 weeks!

[MediaLivingRoom]

"...if you ignore it long enough it will go away..."

[mportuesi]

Eventually more and more people will realize that TTG and MRV on the Series 3 is an exercise in tilting at windmills.

[MediaLivingRoom]

maybe, they will offer it at $999 Series 3 Pro Edition

[porges]

The TiVo newsletter I just got is still claiming that TTCB (if that's how we abbreviate it) will be allowed "soon":

Been wanting to watch video podcasts or other free downloadable videos on your TV? Then get your paws on our preview release of TiVo Desktop 2.4, the upcoming Windows app that automatically converts Web video downloads so you can watch them on your TiVo® Series2™ DVR (soon for TiVo® Series3™ HD).

[MichaelK]

The TiVo newsletter I just got is still claiming that TTCB (if that's how we abbreviate it) will be allowed "soon":

Been wanting to watch video podcasts or other free downloadable videos on your TV? Then get your paws on our preview release of TiVo Desktop 2.4, the upcoming Windows app that automatically converts Web video downloads so you can watch them on your TiVo® Series2™ DVR (soon for TiVo® Series3™ HD).


that's GREAT news and I dont doubt it for a minute. They just need to turn on TTCB and still block MRV.

TTCB even allows poor mans MRV FROM S2's. You can set up galleaon so you can browse an S2 from an S3 and decide which shows to transfer to your pc. Once they are on the PC you can use TTCB to get them on the S3.

So you can get s2 or computer files on an S3 with TTCB.

[CheezWiz]

that's GREAT news and I dont doubt it for a minute. They just need to turn on TTCB and still block MRV.

TTCB even allows poor mans MRV FROM S2's. You can set up galleaon so you can browse an S2 from an S3 and decide which shows to transfer to your pc. Once they are on the PC you can use TTCB to get them on the S3.

So you can get s2 or computer files on an S3 with TTCB.

:up: :up: Right on!

[HDTiVo]

Did everyone somehow stick a note on their calendars that today they'd start asking again about video transfers?

My calendar 2007 isn't even unwrapped.
maybe, they will offer it at $999 Reduced Cost HD Pro Edition

[CheezWiz]

Did everyone somehow stick a note on their calendars that today they'd start asking again about video transfers?

My calendar 2007 isn't even unwrapped.


Yeah, we planned it two weeks ago, sorry you missed the memo..! :p