Battlestar Galactica "Crossroads" Part II Episode #319 3/25/2007 *spoilers*

[Kamakzie]

Wow the Presidents press secretary is soooo hot! :D The music again multiple people are hearing it now, where the frak is it coming from!!! :p HAHA nobody wants to be Baltar's friend. :p

[dago]

i knew they'd cheat.

[cwoody222]

Underwhelming and the ending was so obvious.

[flyers088]

2008!!! are they kidding?? There was just not enough there to make me care to wait that long. This is a worst decision than the Lost decision.

[Skittles]

What. A. Joke.

That's the ending? That's the final five?

What a f**king joke.

[jschuur]

When Tigh said 'The must be some kind of way out of here', did anyone else sing 'Said the joker to the thief'?

I didn't realize the song was All Along the Watchtower that they had been hearing until the space fight scene in the end, but some kind of lyrical instinct kicked in.

So... 4 down, 1 to go? I'm not counting Starbuck as a Cylon just yet.

I was waiting for them to zoom in all the way on Earth and show us Wolfman Jack ;)

[flyers088]

What. A. Joke.

That's the ending? That's the final five?

What a f**king joke.

I have to agree. This show has just done a 180 on what made it a great show. I hope it can be saved but I see little value in the present story to salvage it. I loved the idea of the ending last year but they seem to have lost steam this season and don't seem to know how to crank it up again.

[Billyh1026]

It was an ok episode until the cheesy FX at the end (were they submitted in a contest for 3rd grader's or what?) and worse...they butcher a Hedrix song!! Who sticks a horrible butchered Indian/Hindu remake of a classic like that in?? I think I threw up a little in my mouth.....

[Skittles]

So... 4 down, 1 to go? I'm not counting Starbuck as a Cylon just yet.I think the intention of the writers is to have the viewers thinking that Starbuck is the Cylon, but in reality, I can't imagine why it wouldn't be Roslin at this point. She can communicate with the Cylons (several at once) and although she didn't say she heard the music, she physically reacted when they entered the Ionian Nebula just as the other four did..

So here's the thing. The actual identities of the final five and the way they revealed it are a total letdown.

Tighe as a Cylon? OK, that probably explains why D'Anna Biers apologized in her Opera House vision when she saw the face of one of the final five (something along the lines of 'You? Oh god, I'm so sorry'). She's probably the one that took out Tighe's eye... so when she saw his face in the Opera House and realized he was one of the final five, she probably felt REALLY bad. But the man's got 25 years of history in the Colonial Fleet (probably more). How in the hell are they gonna explain that?

Chief Tyrol is a Cylon? Well, at least we know why he LOOOOVES that Cylon booty. The only real interesting thing about that is that now, there's another hybrid baby aside from Hera.

But Tori? Sorry, what a load of f**king crap. So the chick who replaced Billy in season 2.5, who has no backstory and really, no personality... is a Cylon? Wow. It's not enough that they had Doral as Roslin's assistant. Now she magically picks out another one from thin air.

And Anders? No f'ing way. He's Starbucks piece of meat.

Nevermind the fact that the whole ending to the trial was complete nonsense. So the defense's star witness is their own attorney-in-training? Puh-lease. What a cheap way out of a boring plotline.

I realized tonight, when I got to the end of the show and saw that the wait for season 4 is going to last until 2008, that I really just don't come close to caring about this show the same way I did two years ago. When season 1 ended and Adama was shot and laying on the table in CIC, I was screaming at my TV because it was going to be a long wait to see if he'd live or die (and I honestly thought they'd consider killing him). When season 2.5 ended and the Cylons had taken over New Caprica, I shouted at the looooong wait to find out what the hell had just happened.

When I saw the camera zoom in on Earth tonight, and they told me it wasn't coming back until 2008, my only thought was "Thank god. Maybe they can find some good stories by then and get themselves out of this mess".

Really, it's not just because the revelation of the final five is a total copout. It's because the writing just isn't up to par anymore. I'm at a point where I honestly don't care who or what they kill off in the show. I used to care about them getting to Earth. I used to care about finding out what the motives of the Cylons were. I loved the political aspects of the show, and the fact that they played around with religious viewpoints in some very creative ways.

Now, it's like they've just painted themselves into the world's biggest corner. Worse, I just don't care anymore.

[mostman]

Horrible. RIP Battlestar. RIP.

[Rob Helmerichs]

My only hope for this show is that the rumors are true, that the full-season order means it's the final season (OK, the rumor makes no sense, but I can dream), and that the writers will be motivated to plan ahead and actually build towards...well, something. Anything.

I think this episode is all their birds come home to roost. It should have been one emotional whallop after another, but because absolutely nothing in it was set up earlier in the show's history, and because absolutely none of it makes any sense, it just left me laughing.

I'm pretty sure that's not what they were going for...

[drew2k]

I must have missed it: When did Anders enlist in the Colonial fleet and become a "nugget"?

There were some good things in this episode:

- the connection between Laura, Athena, and Six - especially the simutaneous screams in sick bay

- Baltar's ego after the verdict was revealed

- Lee and Adama didn't make up

- Tighe's line (paraphrased): I'm a colonial officer, and I'll be who I am.

- The lawyer faking his limp.


There were also many bad things:

- The spontaneous "No, No" from the crowd at the trial when Lee asked if this was justice, that Baltar should die. I didn't know Lee could move stone-cold crowds like that.

- Laura's assistant wandering in an apparent drunken state while hearing the music while Tighe was surprisingly upright.

- Tyrol proclaiming they are all Cylons. Based on what? Just the music and the fact that four random people ended up in the same room? Was something cut that would have proved these four were Cylons?

- Kara's return "from the dead" announcing she'd been to Earth. Uh-huh. Reboot #2, coming soon (well 2008) to Sci Fi.

[stalemate]

Well, I guess I'm the only one that liked it then.

Also, I've never heard that song before in my life.

[stalemate]

- Laura's assistant wandering in an apparent drunken state while hearing the music while Tighe was surprisingly upright.Maybe we are just so used to seeing Tighe in a drunken state that it seemed normal for him. :p

[Kamakzie]

Why would all the new Cylons hear a Jimi Hendrix song?? Maybe they are picking up old radio waves from Earth?

[Skittles]

I must have missed it: When did Anders enlist in the Colonial fleet and become a "nugget"?Didn't you see? It was in one of their super special edition deleted bonus scenes a few episodes back.

:D

(Seriously, no clue)

- Kara's return "from the dead" announcing she'd been to Earth. Uh-huh. Reboot #2, coming soon (well 2008) to Sci Fi.So basically, Baltar's gonna get a throne and Kara's gonna get a flying motorcycle then? :)

The spontaneous "No, No" from the crowd at the trial when Lee asked if this was justice, that Baltar should die. I didn't know Lee could move stone-cold crowds like that.What bothers me most about this is that Baltar is seeing this HUGE movement of people who adore him. How in the hell did that happen? I mean, the man's collaborated with Cylons, been on their ships for months, and suddenly he's a revolutionary presence in the fleet? Because he's writing a manifesto? Whatever.

[jschuur]

I didn't mind the episode that much myself. If you didn't like this particular set of the final five (four?), what group were you looking for? Baltar and 4 groupie chicks?

At least this stretched out court room drama is finally over. I could have done without Law & Order: Galactica.

[Skittles]

Why would all the new Cylons hear a Jimi Hendrix song?? Maybe they are picking up old radio waves from Earth?Actually, all of the Mark I Human Cylons have Sirius receivers built in, as part of the basic accessory package.

[stalemate]

I like it that the 4 are all well-established, trusted people.

Crew chief
Former leader of the resistance
Second in command of the military
Adviser to the president (not sure if that is her official title but she definitely has the president's ear)

"And they have a plan."

I guess I'm in the minority here but I really enjoyed it and I'm looking forward to the next season.

[spikedavis]

and worse...they butcher a Hedrix song!!

it's a Bob Dylan song, actually.

[pudding7]

I thought it was pretty well done. Definitely much better than most of the crap soap opera episodes this season. I like the way they brought together the 4 of them, each knowing what it meant.

Pretty cool season finale. But 2008?! To quote my wife... "Holy frak."

[jschuur]

Incase you're wondering, the credits show the adaptation of All Along the Watchtower to be from Bear McCreary (http://www.bearmccreary.com/), who composed a lot of other BSG songs used the last few seasons. Vocals of this one are by his younger brother, Bt4 (http://www.bt4online.com/) according to the credits.

Guess I can't pick this one up on iTunes right now. His site says the season 3 sound track is due out 'Summer 2007'.

[Kamakzie]

it's a Bob Dylan song, actually.

True but its most famously known as a Hendrix performed song.

[Charon2]

I also really enjoyed this episode for the most part, as well as the season. The wait until 2008 seems to be a really bad move to me, but I will be tuning in for sure, especially if it is the last season.

[Tivortex]

True but its most famously known as a Hendrix performed song.

Jimi pwned it.

[ironchef]

I like it that the 4 are all well-established, trusted people.

Crew chief
Former leader of the resistance
Second in command of the military
Adviser to the president (not sure if that is her official title but she definitely has the president's ear)

"And they have a plan."

I guess I'm in the minority here but I really enjoyed it and I'm looking forward to the next season.

+2 in this household, it's easy to hate, and yes, some of what happened was easy to see coming, but Starbucks understated reappearance was well done.

[ironchef]

it's a Bob Dylan song, actually.

The 5th Cylon? Dylan was a toaster?

[ironchef]

True but its most famously known as a Hendrix performed song.


That's odd, I thought of Dylan first.

[DLL66]

This episode isn't as bad as people are making it out to be. It actually was good.

2008! At least Stargate will be on in a couple of weeks........

[Kamakzie]

That's odd, I thought of Dylan first.

Guess I will have to download the Dylan version now.

EDIT: after hearing Dylan's version I really associate it with Hendrix now!

[hefe]

it's a Bob Dylan song, actually.
Yes, it was Dylan people. :p

[hefe]

Well, I guess I'm the only one that liked it then.
I liked it too. The story problems have been rather well documented, but still, I just really liked the way the episode was done. It was the quickest hour of BSG in a while for me. The creepiness factor was high. What can I say. I enjoyed it.

[appleye1]

I liked it too.

And our new toasters might not be toasters at all. They think they are, but all we know for sure is that they heard the same (frakking :)) song.

But even if they are Cylons I still thought it was a good show and I'm looking forward to it coming back in 2008. (Hope it's January!)

[gastrof]

...There were also many bad things:...

- Tyrol proclaiming they are all Cylons. Based on what? Just the music and the fact that four random people ended up in the same room? Was something cut that would have proved these four were Cylons?...

I'm wondering if they're all just victims of Cylon brainwashing from back on New Caprica, not Cylons at all.

But IF they ARE brainwashed...what's it all about and what might they end up doing?

[jimmymac]

Totally predictable.

[spikedavis]

Guess I will have to download the Dylan version now.

EDIT: after hearing Dylan's version I really associate it with Hendrix now!

Blasphemy.

[Uncle Briggs]

I like it that the 4 are all well-established, trusted people.

Crew chief
Former leader of the resistance
Second in command of the military
Adviser to the president (not sure if that is her official title but she definitely has the president's ear)

"And they have a plan."

I guess I'm in the minority here but I really enjoyed it and I'm looking forward to the next season.I was a little surprised by all the negative comments about the show too. I thought it was a pretty good cliffhanger. I enjoyed it. I hate waiting until 2008 though.

[MirclMax]

Of course it was a Dylan song .. but its rise to popularity came with the Hendrix version. It shouldn't diminish Dylan's song writing talent to appreciate that the Hendrix version is the one most people will have heard.

It was ranked 48th on Rolling Stone's Top 500 Songs of All Time (http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/500songs) .. [Side note: "Like a Rolling Stone" by Bob Dylan happens to be #1]

Its also been used in several movies and TV shows.

The episode itself ... eh.....

[zalusky]

Wasn't their an episode of the original series where they were supposed to be in some sort of remote observation station on the galatica and it the two people got distracted by romance or something and missed some earth transmissions. I am trying to remember the transmission? Was it the moonwalk?

BTW, I enjoyed it and wanted some more hours. Looking at Ron Moore's discussion it seems like he is hearing your complaints about the one off episodes. So it will be interesting to see how next year fares.

[Peter000]

I enjoyed it too.

I think that the 4 realized they were Cylons... the comment by one of them (Anders, I think?) "Just like that... a switch is flipped.." was supposed to communicate that they themselves knew it, deep down, despite the fact that they wished it weren't true.

I got chills when Kara made her comeback. I knew it was coming as soon as Lee saw the bogie and went after it, but still, the sane, calm way she talked compared to how she left really was creepy, in a good way. :)

Overall, I didn't like the season as a whole at all, but I think they finally have a goal, a light at the end of the tunnel, of Earth. Instead of wandering aimlessly with plot and characters, everything is defined and now we can put the pedal to the metal for the finish line, which I hope will be the end of the next season.

For the record, I liked the remix of the song at the end, but I'm a sucker for remixes of classics if they're done well and reveal a new interpretation of the music/lyrics.

[cwerdna]

Wasn't their an episode of the original series where they were supposed to be in some sort of remote observation station on the galatica and it the two people got distracted by romance or something and missed some earth transmissions. I am trying to remember the transmission? Was it the moonwalk?

You're talking about the final ep of BSG TOS, Hand of God. It was one of the best TOS eps IMHO. Yes, the transmissions were of the Apollo moon landing.

Yeah, the final 4 or 5 (Roslin's got to be the 5th one) was totally predictable once we got to the sickbay and questioning of Six scene. Man... this season has come to be a let down and I really didn't care for the Bob Dylan music.

If the next season (in 2008?!?!?) is going to continue like this, we won't see a season 4b/4.5.

BTW, why does everyone refer to Tigh as Tighe? It's Colonel Tigh per http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/cast/tigh/. It was also Tigh in TOS.

[brermike]

I really enjoyed the episode. I don't see why people are so upset. I also don't think those are cylon models, they just think they are. For all we know, the Final 5 could be something beyond regular cylons. I am very intrigued and thought the episode was well done and quite creepy. And I am quite happy Kara's destiny didn't end with suicied :)

[dswallow]

I rather liked it. In fact, I think it was one of the best story turns they've taken in a very long time. Not only did we put an end to the Baltar crap (and I have to say I really liked what Apollo said even if I find the mechanism for him to have said that to a large audience to be suspect), we've moved into something completely new.

And I'm actually very happy to see Colonel Tighe as a Cylon. I couldn't wish that upon anyone better. :)

So I should've known I'd come into one of these threads and find that most seemed to really hate it. :p

[dswallow]

(Roslin's got to be the 5th one)
I'd have thought it was Starbuck. But maybe that's just too obvious. But for something obvious, it seems to fit well. Of course, Roslyn having the shared visions does seem to counter that, though it could be related to the blood she received from the child that helped her clear up her cancer the first time around.

[Vito the TiVo]

I'm surprised at the reactions here, and so many of you seem to be so far off base.

We have not seen ANY of the final five Cylons. You're making the assumptions that the characters are. We didn't see the faces of the men in white and we have four people hearing the same music. No connection.

Hearing Dylan means something much more significant than "picking up radio waves". Especially because it's "in the ship" and in them, as if a memory.

Starbuck is back but appears to be ghostly in some form. That ship was jumping around in strange ways.

What Earth has she been to?

What do the visions mean?

All of this to me points to an unseen third party (and did before it was an option in the phone poll). Somebody or something that has been behind the scenes since the start. Behind Head Six and Head Baltar, behind Roslin's visions, behind Six and D'Anna's visions, behind Tyrol's visions. Behind Starbuck's visions and "demise". Guiding the hands of both the Cylons and the humans, leading to something. Now the same hands are behind the violent visions of Roslin, Six and Athena and behind the music in their heads. Is it the hands of the final spiritual five? Is it something else altogether? There's something beautiful between life and death.

There's more going on here than we realize at this point.

[brermike]

I'm surprised at the reactions here, and so many of you seem to be so far off base.

We have not seen ANY of the final five Cylons. You're making the assumptions that the characters are. We didn't see the faces of the men in white and we have four people hearing the same music. No connection.

Hearing Dylan means something much more significant than "picking up radio waves". Especially because it's "in the ship" and in them, as if a memory.

Starbuck is back but appears to be ghostly in some form. That ship was jumping around in strange ways.

What Earth has she been to?

What do the visions mean?

All of this to me points to an unseen third party (and did before it was an option in the phone poll). Somebody or something that has been behind the scenes since the start. Behind Head Six and Head Baltar, behind Roslin's visions, behind Six and D'Anna's visions, behind Tyrol's visions. Behind Starbuck's visions and "demise". Guiding the hands of both the Cylons and the humans, leading to something. Now the same hands are behind the violent visions of Roslin, Six and Athena and behind the music in their heads. Is it the hands of the final spiritual five? Is it something else altogether? There's something beautiful between life and death.

There's more going on here than we realize at this point.

I couldn't have said it better myself. A great episode and a killer wait until season 4!!

[aintnosin]

Yeah, unbelievable (and in my thinking, totally unjustified) hostility here. 2008 is just too far away. Grrr.

[atrac]

This Episode: Thumbs Up! I'm stunned to see so many didn't like it. There's no accounting for taste of course, but I really feel like the show is back on track. The "power of ten" final zoom out and then to Earth was amazing.

2008 Return: Thumbs Down! Unbelievable. You've got to be kidding me. 2008. It's insane. That is a LONG time away. May as well have a kid because it's nine months away AT LEAST. :(

[JETarpon]

Somebody refresh my memory. In the miniseries or season 1, they went to that place where there was the radiation that the cylons couldn't handle. Were Tyrol or Tigh there?

[spikedavis]

Count me in as loving it. I can't believe we have to wait so long to see the conclusion.

I also refuse to believe the "Human Four" are indeed Cylons. Otherwise, The Final Five would have been "de-robed" in Six's vision. They definetely kept that ambigious.

[spikedavis]

Somebody refresh my memory. In the miniseries or season 1, they went to that place where there was the radiation that the cylons couldn't handle. Were Tyrol or Tigh there?

Hmm-I remember that. I think Chief Tyrol was there, but Tigh was on Galactica since Adama was on the station.

[pestilence]

liked it am curious if the five are really cylons or just brainwashed while on new caprica would have been easy for the cylons to do. Glad to see starbuck back just hope they dont make it hokey. btw anyone want to comment on her "viper" looked different then the other fighters be interesting to get an explanation.
Rumor control says they reason the new season wont be out till 2008 is because a movie is being filmed as we speak (or very soon) and they are goign to complete it first before starting the final season. The movie is supposed to cover what happened on new caprica between seasons 2 and 3. could be interesting.
waiting for 2008 will be interesting thank god sg1 and atlantis will be there to fill in.

[getbak]

Somebody refresh my memory. In the miniseries or season 1, they went to that place where there was the radiation that the cylons couldn't handle. Were Tyrol or Tigh there?
It wasn't that they couldn't handle it in the sense that it incapacitated them. The radiation caused damage to some part of their artificial structure that caused it to degrade after long-term exposure. The original Leoben was affected because he had been at the anchorage for a long time.

After the humans left Doral behind at the anchorage and the cylons showed up to get him, he said that he wanted to get away because it was starting to affect him. The cylons who retrieved him were not immediately affected.

I believe the humans who were at the anchorage even mentioned some discomfort because of the radiation, it just had a greater effect on the cylons with long-term exposure. Even if any of the "final five" were present at the anchorage, they wouldn't have been affected in any way that it would have exposed them as cylons.



I'm with the others who don't believe that the four people who got together at the end are actually part of the final five cylons.

It's interesting that they heard an earth song. I know they wear earth-like clothes, drive earth-like vehicles, and have earth-like pets, but it was a recognizable earth song then we get the closing shot of earth-actual. I think the four will be key to finding earth and not necessarily be actual cylons.


Tigh said that he's been in the military for 40 years, so either the cylons had human versions during the first human-cylon war; he's a cylon-clone replacement of the real Tigh; or he is not a cylon.

[Jeeters]

btw anyone want to comment on her "viper" looked different then the other fighters be interesting to get an explanation.Wasn't it just that she was flying a viper from the Pegasus and Apollo was in an older Galactica viper?

[emandbri]

I liked it too, predictable but enjoyable. My fav part of the episode was the look on the prez face when Adama said he voted not guilty. My husband on the other hand HATED the episode.

[speedcouch]

I like it that the 4 are all well-established, trusted people.
<snip>
I guess I'm in the minority here but I really enjoyed it and I'm looking forward to the next season.

Nope, I thought it was a great ending! Especially the part where Tigh decided the heck with whether I'm a cylon or not, I'm going to be loyal to the people I know and the Colonial Fleet. Meaning, to me, just like Sharon, the humanod cylons have "free choice" built into their programming.

But I do believe the one who's going to go bad and be true to her cylon nature will be the President's aide. Mostly because of the 4, she's not a major character, so she expendable.

I just KNEW once Apollo flew into the nebula, he'd run into Starbuck. Good move to not list Katie Sackoff in the opening credits (especially since so many people here just said last week on some show that they always list people there - guess that was wrong).

I also picked up on because of the Chief that there could now be two half-breed babies.

But I also thought that the whole thing could be misdirection and that just because they all heard the music doesn't mean they actually are cylons.

My husband on the other hand hated the ending and said "I know it's science fiction, but that was just too hard to believe!"

BTW, while Jimi Hendrix had the more popular version on the song in the late 60s, it's actually a Bob Dylan song - written by him. And I couldn't get the frackin lyrics out of MY head when I went to bed last night. :eek: So does that make me a cylon too? ;)

Edit: On putting Apollo on the stand, pretty hokey move; however the payoff was well worth it. Rather than alienating himself further from his father, everything he said was true - everyone just doesn't like Baltar and he's become a scapegoat. Something I hadn't realized before. No, I can't stand him either, but he did only sign the death order under threat of death.

Cheryl

[TAsunder]

Feels like an entire season was totally wasted. I am pretty sure we could have condensed all the important plot points from this season into 1 hour, maybe 2. The entire trial was a farce, and though last week's trial epsiode was the worst written courtroom drama in history, this week's was not exactly shakespeare either.

While we can remain skeptical and think that those 4 aren't among the final 5, the show will have jumped the shark if they aren't, in a rather direct sense. Sensationalized script just to leave us hanging only to later retract it just for the sake of excitement, that's pretty much the definition of jumping the shark. If they are among the final 5, then they sure have a lot of explaining to do.

[3D]

Tigh said that he's been in the military for 40 years, so either the cylons had human versions during the first human-cylon war; he's a cylon-clone replacement of the real Tigh; or he is not a cylon.

Or they're planning on using time travel as a storytelling device. This could also be used to "explain" Starbuck's reappearance from the dead. Admittedly, this would be pretty lame and hard to rationalize with the rest of whatever the Cylon master plan may be (i.e., if they could use time travel, they certainly haven't used it to its full advantage). I don't think this is the case, but just laying out another possibility.

I'm actually of the opinion that the four only think they're Cylons based on something that was done to them on New Caprica. Now that the "switch" has been flipped, the Cylons may or may not be able to exert some type of control over them.

Alternatively, these four might be new models of Cylons, with their human counterparts killed in captivity on New Caprica. I hope that this is the case, as simple brainwashing would seem to be a bit of a copout.

Whether new models or simply brainwahsed, however, given the timeline set forth at the beginning of the mini-series, absent time travel, I just don't see how they can explain anyone being an original or final five Cylon when they have a lengthy history with any non-Cylons. Tigh's history with Adama makes it all but impossible for him to be anything but brainwaished or a new Cylon model that was first released on New Caprica.

[cwoody222]

Now that I think about it more I think the four are NOT Cylons and something else is going on.

I think it was a bit of a redirect. We know there are five missing models. So show us 4 and then show us 1 (Starbuck) so we assume all 5 are. But I think only Starbuck is.

Or maybe the writers don't even know and that's why they didn't show the ones in Six's vision "de-robe".

[Skittles]

Now that I think about it more I think the four are NOT Cylons and something else is going on. So the whole revelation last night might be the world's biggest tease? That'd probably make me even madder than if these four really were/are part of the final five. To reiterate TAsunder's point... at that point, the show really is jumping the shark (although with this season, it's arguable that they already have)

Or maybe the writers don't even know....Considering the generally meandering and pointless nature of a lot of the episodes in season three, this wouldn't surprise me.

[jerobi]

Well, we knew that the folks who heard the music would evntually come together. Just because they all looked at each other and deemed themselves to be Cylons doesn't mean much, as once again the writers have given themselves several options for working the story. And hey, at least haters of the courtroom arc got to see that one finished, plus the start of a new Underground Baltar arc. And we've got a major battle about to take place.

As lame as that "we're Cylons" reveal was, I imagine it will soften in my memory during the many months wait until 2008. Here's hoping they use that time for some solid arc writing.

[TAsunder]

The problem with the "we are cylons" thing is, it is not a logical conclusion if they just heard music and decided to go to a spot to avoid it. They didn't really discuss it much at all, they just were disappointed. No one asked, did anyone else hear weird music and decide to come here? Therefore, for them to all conclude it, is either bad writing, or we are to believe they have some other evidence that we don't.

[PJO1966]

Personally, I really enjoyed the episode. Lee's outburst in the courtroom, while hokey, was 100% right.

I think it was the Chief who said, "Just like that, a switch goes off in our heads and we're Cylons?" I like the idea that they were brainwashed somehow.

I thought it was pretty damn cool when all the ships lost power and they were all drifting in space. I thought that was going to be the cliffhanger.

I have no problem with Starbuck coming back (kudos to putting her name in the closing credits) but we saw her ship blow up. Where did she get a spare?

I can't believe we have to wait so long for the return of this show. 2008 is a very long way away.

Finally, I really liked the arrangement they did for "Watchtower." I'm a big fan of the Hendrix version, but this was different enough for it not to be compared to that, at least for me. Very cool.

[Gunnyman]

The courtroom stuff was the only compelling bit in the episode. So was hearing the music them getting switched on and having self realization? I hope they hunker down and do some serious planning over the hiatus. Season 3 was over all just a big bag of meh.

[glumlord]

I like it that the 4 are all well-established, trusted people.

Crew chief
Former leader of the resistance
Second in command of the military
Adviser to the president (not sure if that is her official title but she definitely has the president's ear)

"And they have a plan."

I guess I'm in the minority here but I really enjoyed it and I'm looking forward to the next season.

I for one also really really enjoyed the finale. They made it about the Cylons again, the trial is over, we finally know who 4 of the 5 are.

I'm not sure how I feel about Kara being alive, but it was a weird scene and I'm not going to worry about it. I assume the writers are not complete idiots and have a believable story laid out on why they would kill Kara 3-4 episodes ago and then bring her back. I am willing to give them a chance to explain to us whats going on before judging :)

[PJO1966]

The courtroom stuff was the only compelling bit in the episode. So was hearing the music them getting switched on and having self realization? I hope they hunker down and do some serious planning over the hiatus. Season 3 was over all just a big bag of meh.


I think the switch was flipped when they reached the nebula. Before that they were getting close and were having some symptoms, but it was the nebula that was the trigger.

[mitchb2]

I don't regret investing in 2+ seasons. That was some fantastic television.
But this marked the series finale for me.

The show ended with "Exodus," the Cylons fled, never to return, the humans found Earth and lived happily ever after.

With BSG and SG-1 ending..is there any new sci-fi on the horizon?

[cwoody222]

I think the switch was flipped when they reached the nebula. Before that they were getting close and were having some symptoms, but it was the nebula that was the trigger.

And wasn't the nebula just the "next step" on their roadmap to Earth? They needed to find a clue there.

Perhaps the four hearing music have the clue in their subconscious and it's being revealed to them now.

And on the cliffhanger... don't forget, the ships are all unable to jump due to the power outage (what was THAT all about anyway?) so there's gonna be a big battle.

I really think the four were a misdirection ... but the writers should have known that they shouldn't have played with something as big as the ID of the final five like that. People who believed the misdirection (which is the point of such a thing, to make people believe it) were bound to think it was LAME.

[Skittles]

And on the cliffhanger... don't forget, the ships are all unable to jump due to the power outage (what was THAT all about anyway?) so there's gonna be a big battle. I said the same thing at the winter cliffhanger. Of course, we saw how that played out.

They're not gonna come back with a big battle. It's gonna end up being a diplomacy situation, because the Cylons just can't destroy the humans. The Cylons need the humans to show them the way to Earth. Clearly, the Cylons have no way of finding their own path there, so the Cylons track the humans on their course.

Big battle = possible chance of destroying Galactica = bye bye chance at the Cylons finding Earth. So the Cylons won't risk it. IIRC, the base ships didn't even launch Raiders, so I'm wondering if the Cylons aren't there to broker an agreement.

[jones07]

Well, I guess I'm the only one that liked it then.



I also felt last night was one of the best eps of the season.

So much so I saved to watch again later, something I almost never do.

[jones07]

Wow the Presidents press secretary is soooo hot! :D The music again multiple people are hearing it now, where the frak is it coming from!!! :p HAHA nobody wants to be Baltar's friend. :p


Yes, she's really hot, more so with her uncombed hair look :p

The Baltar verdict had my wife and I on the edge of our sofa. I thought he was dead meat.

[PJO1966]

Q&A with Ron Moore (http://www.tvweek.com/article.cms?articleId=31699)

[EchoBravo]

Anyone notice the main titles were cut from this episode... Or am I really just that tired and simply missed them both while watching the first time and when going back and looking for them b/c I realized they were missing?

[cwoody222]

Confirmed they are cylons. Boo :(

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07085/770732-352.stm

[PJO1966]

Anyone notice the main titles were cut from this episode... Or am I really just that tired and simply missed them both while watching the first time and when going back and looking for them b/c I realized they were missing?


They were cut from last week and this week. Each episode was supposed to be 90 minutes, and each was cut down to 60.

[EchoBravo]

They were cut from last week and this week. Each episode was supposed to be 90 minutes, and each was cut down to 60.Thanks for the quick reply. Guess I'll have to try to get back into the podcasts. I hate to pile on with the "BSG has J the S" crap, but it's been really hard to be passionate about the series this year. One manifestation of that for me is the fact that I only watched this year's episodes once.

The first two seasons, I'd watch at least twice... The second with the podcast playing. This year I just haven't cared all that much.

I'm glad they haven't frakked up Heroes (yet).

[Skittles]

Confirmed they are cylons. Boo :(

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07085/770732-352.stmIs it me, or does he come off like he doesn't know where he's going with the storyline in a few parts of that interview?

[jones07]

I don't regret investing in 2+ seasons. That was some fantastic television.
But this marked the series finale for me.

You'll be watching again in 08 ;)

[rich]

I have no problem with Starbuck coming back (kudos to putting her name in the closing credits) but we saw her ship blow up. Where did she get a spare?Not only that, but why did her Viper show up on DRADIS as "Unknown" and not "Colonial"?

[doom1701]

Is it me, or does he come off like he doesn't know where he's going with the storyline in a few parts of that interview?

Or that people have taken this entire "final 5" thing in a completely different direction than where it is actually going, and he doesn't want to reveal the real story.

[Jeeters]

I don't regret investing in 2+ seasons. That was some fantastic television.
But this marked the series finale for me.

The show ended with "Exodus," the Cylons fled, never to return, the humans found Earth and lived happily ever after.

With BSG and SG-1 ending..is there any new sci-fi on the horizon?Amazing how many people want to write off the whole season. Really? The whole season? Yeah, the last few (5 or so episodes) have been duds, but there's still been a lot of good stuff between Exodus and now... the tribunal, the cylon virus, the algae planet / eye of jupiter episodes. Looking at an episode list, I'd write off maybe a third of this season as completley lame, but not the majority, let alone *whole* season by a longshot.

Even in the earlier seasons there's been several duds... "Scar", "Black Market", Zarek (Richard Hatch) on the prison ship, the boring political soapboxing of "Colonial Day". Ugh.


After reading the posted Q&As with Ron Moore, I'm highly intrigued with where they're taking the show and will definitely be coming back.

[TAsunder]

I won't write off the whole season, what I would do is condense it into a 2 hour episode. That could cover just about everything important that's happened.

[latrobe7]

Confirmed they are cylons. Boo :(

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07085/770732-352.stm
From the article:R: When did you decide to make these four characters Cylons and how much did you have to go back and check to make sure that fit with things we already knew about these four characters?

RM: It was something I came up with this season as I worked toward the finale. The conceptual framework in which these guys are Cylons, it all sort of works once we laid down their individual back stories.So much for grand-master-plans and a 'show-bible'. Like they say in the show, everything repeats, and I am feeling some serious deja vu; last time I fell for this it was the X-Files, before that it was Twin Peaks. Lame.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Is it me, or does he come off like he doesn't know where he's going with the storyline in a few parts of that interview?
Gasp! :D

I'm not surprised that they decided who the Final 4/5s were pretty much at the last minute--i.e., during the filming of this season. Like everything else in this show, the identities seemed to come out of left field.

[dswallow]

Gasp! :D

I'm not surprised that they decided who the Final 4/5s were pretty much at the last minute--i.e., during the filming of this season. Like everything else in this show, the identities seemed to come out of left field.
The cool thing with shows like Firefly or Babylon 5 is how so much is set up early on that as events in the future take strange turns we're able to go back and see the groundwork for such things being laid, even thought at the time, it seemed to be something completely different or even completely unimportant. But so much is there supporting it. It's that richness that makes such series timeless.

[TAsunder]

That article pretty much was the death knell of my view of BSG as a great show. It was already teetering on the edge before. It confirmed all of our worst fears about not planning in advance. Worse, maybe... he's almost flippant about being able to just throw something into the storyline and assume that since it is not 100% BS that it's ok and 'fits' without any prior set up.

I guess one could say it's a "good thing" that the DVD movie is "setting up" something for season four. On the other hand I can pretty much guarantee that it will be a bunch of entirely new information that could not possibly have been true in the past once you think about its consequences, much like most of every other "set up" they do. :down: :down:

At this point, I have more faith that the people who write Lost have things planned out than I do BSG. While Lost has much more of a Carrot on a Stick feel to it, and has greatly declined in quality this season (to me, anyway), it rarely contradicts itself the way BSG does. Instead it just provides us with a lot of questions but only a few answers. Whereas BSG provides us with a question that didn't exist until this episode, retrofits it into the prior storylines, then provides us with a half-baked answer.

Which was at least moderately acceptable when it was something that was only a minor plot point. Now we have 4 characters who are retro'd into cylons and we are supposed to find it "interesting" to think about what it means. And apparently so does ron! He thinks it's interesting... WTF. He shouldn't find it interesting in the middle of season 3. He should find it interesting around episode 4 of season 1, then slowly give us clues.

[zalusky]

I love it how the whiners say this is it for them and then they keep coming back each episode to complain. Its get pretty tiring to hear negative stuff without serious constructive suggestions.

Most TV shows have a very broad story arc for a season and then fill in individual story lines with various screenwriters as they go along. They dont even know if they are being renewed till the last moment. You whiners make it all sound like its in their control. Take the 90 minute thing, the suits come along at the last minute and say you only get 60. So they have go butcher things and make it look intelligent.

Look at 24 season 1. It was originally a 13 episode arc and the suits came in and said we want 9 more episodes NOW.

The who short JR year of Dallas was supposed to end a few episodes earlier and the suits said make some more episodes and they just decided to make up the shooting at the last moment.

There is no freaking way they can plan out the detail and consistency you want years ahead of time.

Look at what he is saying about Caprica. Sometimes its a go and sometimes it not.

Of course your whining response is going to be, if they wrote better shows it wouldn't be a problem. Its all so simple.

[TAsunder]

First off, I will still watch BSG. Just because I am disgusted by the way the story is written doesn't mean I don't enjoy it. However, it no longer remains among the really great shows on TV.

That's really nice that you are willing to forgive bad writing solely because the writers don't know if it will ever make it to air. I'm not. There are some shows that do not cheat but have longer term storylines.

Basically what you are saying is that ron devised half a season of BSG in his mind and began writing without knowing where any of it was heading and didn't think it mattered since the show might not get picked up for a full season, season 2, etc. That's a bunch of hooey and an excuse for lazy writing.

You are basically saying he gets to have is cake and eat it too. He can set up storylines that span multiple seasons but he doesn't have to plan them because the show might get cancelled. That's rubbish.

Edit: No one wants "every detail" planned out. However, MAJOR details such as who is a cylon and who isn't MUST be planned out. I do not enjoy the 24 style "by the way, this person is the mole even though it makes ZERO sense if you go back and watch previous episodes".

[Skittles]

Edit: No one wants "every detail" planned out. However, MAJOR details such as who is a cylon and who isn't MUST be planned out. Agreed. If the Cylons have a plan, then the writers should too.

[doom1701]

Or it doesn't matter who the "final 5" are, since they weren't Cylon plants to begin with.

That's all I'm sayin'--at least until I watch the episode.

[TAsunder]

Heh, that would be seriously comedic if the writers don't even know what the cylons have planned given that almost every episode has told us that they have a plan. Maybe they'll decide at the end of season 4 that their plan was to eat porridge but they forgot how to make it and have to go to earth to learn the recipe.

[latrobe7]

I love it how the whiners say this is it for them and then they keep coming back each episode to complain. Its get pretty tiring to hear negative stuff without serious constructive suggestions.I love apologists who think that whatever the writers pull out of their collective a** is a great idea after every episode where something completely different comes out of nowhere like this is Monty Python's Flying Circus. It gets tiring to hear their *slurps* for Mr. Moore while ignoring the cries from anyone wanting some degree of internal consistency or pre-planning.

Most TV shows have a very broad story arc for a season and then fill in individual story lines with various screenwriters as they go along. They dont even know if they are being renewed till the last moment. You whiners make it all sound like its in their control. Take the 90 minute thing, the suits come along at the last minute and say you only get 60. So they have go butcher things and make it look intelligent.

Look at 24 season 1. It was originally a 13 episode arc and the suits came in and said we want 9 more episodes NOW.

The who short JR year of Dallas was supposed to end a few episodes earlier and the suits said make some more episodes and they just decided to make up the shooting at the last moment.

There is no freaking way they can plan out the detail and consistency you want years ahead of time.Right, that's why many TV writers adhere to a 'show bible', a framework of crucial plot points that could be summed up in a few episodes, that is around which they create the 'filler' stand-alone episodes. It's much more satisfying when something happens in a show that plays off something from previous episodes, that meant nothing at the time, but in retrospect was foreshowing for the plot development (see Doug's post above regarding Firefly and Babylon 5). In this case, I had expected that when they declared 'There are 12 Cylon models' they would have an idea who those were and would have been laying the groundwork for the reveal.

Of course your whining response is going to be, if they wrote better shows it wouldn't be a problem. Its all so simple.Gee, sorry for having a different opinion; was Ron Moore your camp counselor or is he your cousin or something? It's not 'better writing' it's better planning and internal consistency that is lacking.

[jschuur]

How did the Cylons orchestrate the fleet-wider power outage? Do they have other sleeper agents in place? Surely we're not supposed to believe the 4 newly revealed Cylons sleepwalked all over the fleet and fiddled with the power systems to each ship (although Tyrol certainly would be in a position to do so).

[Skittles]

How did the Cylons orchestrate the fleet-wider power outage? Do they have other sleeper agents in place? Surely we're not supposed to believe the 4 newly revealed Cylons sleepwalked all over the fleet and fiddled with the power systems to each ship (although Tyrol certainly would be in a position to do so).Something within the Nebula is doing it, I'd wager. That's why the whole fleet shut down, and why the Final Fakes... er, Final Five... had their revelation at the exact moment that the ships lost power.

[stalemate]

I have an honest question for those who are unhappy with these particular 4 characters being part of the final 5. Which of these would have made you happier:


A different set of already established characters as the final 5 (please be specific).
Characters that are currently unknown to us as the final 5.
To know that there is a final 5 but never have them be revealed.
No final 5 cylons at all. (Really only choose this one as an absolute last resort if you hate #1-3 please. I would really like to stick with the idea that there are 5 more cylon models but if you absolutely can't accept that here is your option :) )


I'm really just curious because I have no problem whatsoever with these particular 4 but I know some do. I'm curious what you would have preferred.

[Billyh1026]

it's a Bob Dylan song, actually.True, but Dylan's singing (or whatever he call's it) suck's. Granted, he wrote and sang it first, but Jimi immortalized it. If Hendrix doesn't cover that song, it's not even a footnote in musical history...

[Rob Helmerichs]

I have an honest question for those who are unhappy with these particular 4 characters being part of the final 5. Which of these would have made you happier:


A different set of already established characters as the final 5 (please be specific).
Characters that are currently unknown to us as the final 5.
To know that there is a final 5 but never have them be revealed.
No final 5 cylons at all. (Really only choose this one as an absolute last resort if you hate #1-3 please. I would really like to stick with the idea that there are 5 more cylon models but if you absolutely can't accept that here is your option :) )


I'm really just curious because I have no problem whatsoever with these particular 4 but I know some do. I'm curious what you would have preferred.
6) Some indication that, looking back, the writers knew that these characters were the Cylons. Some work done along the way that would make it make sense that these characters were Cylons.

But then, for that to happen they would have had to figure out a way that the Spylons ever made sense in the first place, and that train left the station with no writers aboard early in the first season.

[latrobe7]

I have an honest question for those who are unhappy with these particular 4 characters being part of the final 5. Which of these would have made you happier:


A different set of already established characters as the final 5 (please be specific).
Characters that are currently unknown to us as the final 5.
To know that there is a final 5 but never have them be revealed.
No final 5 cylons at all. (Really only choose this one as an absolute last resort if you hate #1-3 please. I would really like to stick with the idea that there are 5 more cylon models but if you absolutely can't accept that here is your option :) )


I'm really just curious because I have no problem whatsoever with these particular 4 but I know some do. I'm curious what you would have preferred.
Some combination of options 1 & 2 would have been more satisfying, IMO. A couple of suggestions for the Five would be Gaeta, Dualla or the obvious, Baltar. But, honestly, the only one I have a real problem with is Tigh, because that will re-define what has already been psuedo-established about the Cylons. And I could accept that if there was some kind of build-up or hinting at it previously. I do beleive that these writers, who are extremely talented, if they knew back in season one that Tigh was a Cylon, would have laid subtle groundwork to support that. It's more how it was done that who they are that bothers me.

[aaronwt]

Confirmed they are cylons. Boo :(

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07085/770732-352.stm

Didn't he also confirm that they killed off the Starbuck character? look how that turned out.

[stalemate]

6) Some indication that, looking back, the writers knew that these characters were the Cylons. Some work done along the way that would make it make sense that these characters were Cylons.

But then, for that to happen they would have had to figure out a way that the Spylons ever made sense in the first place, and that train left the station with no writers aboard early in the first season.So what was option 5? Maybe I would have liked it! :p

[jerobi]

I'm really just curious because I have no problem whatsoever with these particular 4 but I know some do. I'm curious what you would have preferred.

For me, I would certainly prefer that we know the five that are eventually revealed. To pull all five out of nowhere leaves less relevance for the viewer.

I have less of a problem with their selections than I do with their reveal. That's it? They hear some music and BAM - they're Cylons. In a room. Then they leave. Three seasons of building on this grand fact of there being a set number of Cylon models and they just drop the big reveal in your lap. Because of, uh, um, some music. Music in the ship. Yeah, sounds great.

Now then...they still have wiggle room to spin this into some intrigue. All four know of each other. If this is just some kind of Cylon trick (or random Act of The Gods, whatever), that means a lot of second guessing of other peoples actions and motives, not to mention their own second-guessing of themselves. That kind of plot would be a lot better to me.

Then again, this whole season is getting a little fast and loose with all of its religion and mythology. They basically do whatever they want, then tell us there is some mystical reason for it.

[jradford]

6) Some indication that, looking back, the writers knew that these characters were the Cylons. Some work done along the way that would make it make sense that these characters were Cylons.

But then, for that to happen they would have had to figure out a way that the Spylons ever made sense in the first place, and that train left the station with no writers aboard early in the first season.
Doesn't that take some of the fun out of the suprise? Isn't that about all that is left? Besides, with your second statement in mind (and one that I agree with), how could ground work be laid that gave the viewer some idea that these 4 might be cylons when it seems clear that they only became aware of their cylon nature in the last 2 episodes?

However, the only way I could validate my statement would be if the creator/writers used that as an excuse. Instead, the creator has stated that he didn't know who the final 5 cylons were before the 1st few episodes of this season were written.

[Skittles]

To answer your question, some combination of options 1 & 2 would have been more satisfying, IMO. A couple of suggestions for the Five would be Gaeta, Dualla or the obvious, Baltar. Agreed. Gaeta and Dualla, two of the more morally wholesome characters on the show, would have made for MUCH better members of the Final Five. Personally, I'd disagree on Baltar (mostly because I'm just over his character at this point). But Dee and Gaeta as Cylons would have been much more interesting than Tori, random background cast member with no more than 2 lines an episode on average.

Colonel Tighe as a Cylon is a serious "WTF?". We know Tighe's been in the service for 30 years, possibly 40, and that presents some very serious chronology issues.

Roslin as a Cylon? THAT would be awesome. That's something I've seen guessing about for a while, because they've left plenty of clues about her possibly being a Cylon. But with the way they danced around that last night (notice they never outright say she's a Cylon, and the interview with RDM takes care to avoid it too) leads me to wonder if they're going to have her NOT be a Cylon. In fact, I'm pretty much predicting that the only reason she's sharing her vision with Caprica Six and Athena is because of Hera's hybrid blood that's floating around in her veins.

So yeah. Gaeta and Dee as Cylons. Or even Callie. And then a few new people.

Because if they're not Spylons (using "Spylon" in the sense of Cylons in human guise specifically planted to spy on the humans), it'd make a lot more sense to have them be complete and total nobodies. And frankly, it'd even be an easy out for the writers. It avoids some SERIOUS complications with the characters.

I can almost forgive Tori. Almost. But Tighe as a Cylon presents serious storyline complications.

6) Some indication that, looking back, the writers knew that these characters were the Cylons. Some work done along the way that would make it make sense that these characters were Cylons.Actually, this is the option I'd pick. :)

[TAsunder]

Honestly I'd prefer no final 5. If there are going to be final 5 it should not be any existing characters. Nor should it be the equally lame, here's this new random character and 10 episodes later it turns out they are the final 5. So in my mind they should be a group of people who know they are the final 5 and who the fleet meets at some point in the future.

Any other choice requires much more planning and set up than BSG writers seem capable of. Remember back in season 1? At least then they showed us boomer early and it took a while for her to realize it, then even longer for it to be revealed to others.

So in a sense I agree with latrobe. They could have made it a much longer reveal if they were going to use the tactic they did, which was already flawed to begin with. At least then it wouldn't have felt like a complete and utter cheat. From the interview above it would seem that they had at most half of a season of groundwork, probably less, and none of it seems relevant to me thinking about it now. With the possible exception of the algae planet temple.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Doesn't that take some of the fun out of the suprise? Isn't that about all that is left? Besides, with your second statement in mind (and one that I agree with), how could ground work be laid that gave the viewer some idea that these 4 might be cylons when it seems clear that they only became aware of their cylon nature in the last 2 episodes?

However, the only way I could validate my statement would be if the creator/writers used that as an excuse. Instead, the creator has stated that he didn't know who the final 5 cylons were before the 1st few episodes of this season were written.
The problem is, Tigh (e.g.) being a Cylon, in light of what we've seen of his character and of the Spylon community, is complete gibberish. They would have had to subtly establish both Tigh's character and the nature of Spylons so it is at least conceivable that he could be one, while still making it surprising when it turns out that's what he is. But that would have taken foresight and clever planning. Instead, they went with the "Donald Trump is the secret co-founder of PETA! Because, well, isn't that cool?!?" approach.

Well, no, guys, it's not cool. It's stupid. It's only cool if two years ago Trump suddenly dumps a hot supermodel when she shows up for their third date, and when we look back at it we realize she was wearing a fur coat.

[ironchef]

They're not gonna come back with a big battle. It's gonna end up being a diplomacy situation, because the Cylons just can't destroy the humans. The Cylons need the humans to show them the way to Earth. Clearly, the Cylons have no way of finding their own path there, so the Cylons track the humans on their course.

Big battle = possible chance of destroying Galactica = bye bye chance at the Cylons finding Earth. So the Cylons won't risk it. IIRC, the base ships didn't even launch Raiders, so I'm wondering if the Cylons aren't there to broker an agreement.


Or possibly the cylons willl get zapped by whatever shut down the power in the fleet. It would leave them scrambling to launch while galactica is already coming back up.

[jradford]

Well, no, guys, it's not cool. It's stupid. It's only cool if two years ago Trump suddenly dumps a hot supermodel when she shows up for their third date, and when we look back at it we realize she was wearing a fur coat.
In the interview linked in this thread, Moore makes it clear that the final 5 are fundamentally different spylons, hinting that we will find out much more about these "different" fundamentals in season 4.

From what we saw last night, I think one difference we should already be getting is that these final 4 had no thought or feelings that before last episode that they might be spylons, unlike the Boomer from the 1st year who seemed to always know it deep down while not wanting it to be true, (or something along those lines.)

The Trump-PETA comparison only works if you consider them to be exactly like the other Spylons. Unfortunately, it seems like the only reason they're different is so he (Moore) had a way to make them whoever he wanted.

[zalusky]

One difference is that these Spylons seemed to only have been activated as they approached the nebula and Earth.

Meaning that they may be Spylons that were created by the original earth tribe.

What I mean is that the Cylon race may be a aggregation of a lot of the earth cultures/programming. Its possible that their are factions of Cylon programming that are essentially dormant and as they approached the nebula, the broadcasting such as the music activates this dormant programming.

The incoming cylons who are chasing them may also be immediately be affected by this as well. Where they go and what happens as a result of this dormant programming of the 13th tribe is what we need to see more of.

Even though Ron may have juse came up with this, it can still be consistent with the universe he has created.

It just implies the Cylon programming goes way back. Even though the Cylons may not have existed way back the AI from which they came from may have.

One part I am a little fuzzy on in the mythology, Did the 13th tribe (earth) leave as a result of a Cylon attack or did they just up and leave for philosophical reasons

[Rob Helmerichs]

The Trump-PETA comparison only works if you consider them to be exactly like the other Spylons. Unfortunately, it seems like the only reason they're different is so he (Moore) had a way to make them whoever he wanted.
But since the Spylons themselves already don't make sense, it doesn't matter whether Tigh et al. are different or not. It would just be yet another way they don't make sense.

[3D]

Look at 24 season 1. It was originally a 13 episode arc and the suits came in and said we want 9 more episodes NOW.

Uh, then why didn't they call it 13? ;)

IIRC, the writers of 24 got a 13 episode guarantee and, concerned that they wouldn't get picked up for 11 more episodes, set things up so that episode 13 would be a fitting finale. When the network did pick them up, they had to scramble for a story arc that they probably should have planned out to begin with. Anyways, as exciting as 24 can be at times, I don't think that type of seam of the pants writing style is what a show with a more epic storyline should be aiming for, particularly a science fiction program, whose fans are more likely to pick up on inconsistencies.

[jcrash]

everyone is a cylon

[zalusky]

All my reverse ranting aside, I do respect there are a lot of people complaining here and in other places with similar complaints and they need to respond to that.

My complaint is I wish many of you would be more specific on how to improve things if they are indeed listening and it would surprise if they have people looking at various online blogs.

If you survey this and previous threads the complaints are more inflammatory then constructive. Mostly its sucks, and I want to see sh*t blow up, and I dont want soap opera kissing stuff.

Some people have gotten a little more specific about character development but how about the complainers try to come up with specific story suggestions that illustrate what they would like to see.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

...unlike the Boomer from the 1st year who seemed to always know it deep down while not wanting it to be true...

I'm not sure that Boomer always knew it deep down -- when watching the mini & first season I got the impression that she didn't really start to wonder until her "hidden agenda" programming started to make her do things that conflicted with her "outward appearance" programming.

While I don't think that there's anything in the story that makes our four outed cylons impossible to believe as cylons (if they're programmed not to be aware, and to act as humans, why not do what they've done?) it's also quite obvious from the podcasts and interviews with Moore that the long-term mythology wasn't well-planned for the duration of the show, which takes it down several notches in my estimation (to the level of, well, the bulk of other sci-fi television), but I still find the show enjoyable -- I've just lowered my expectations of the show. I just think that the potential of the first two seasons was squandered.

[gchance]

I'm with zalusky... personally, I think these are cylons DESCENDENTS OF the original cylons, or original 5 humanoid cylons. They weren't created, they were born, just like Hera. That would explain Tigh being in the military for 40 years. This would make them fundamentally different. Heck, they could be 2nd & 3rd generation (or in Tigh's case, 1st or 2nd).

As far as the rearrangement of All Along the Watchtower, they pretty much had to do it this way. It created a slow leadup, we had no idea what it was until Tigh said, "There must be some kinda way outta here." What Tyrol was humming certainly wasn't recognizable to me, I didn't even recognize it when they were all humming it together. I didn't mind it at all, I don't see it as another Earth thing they have, I see it more as an artistic thing. By us recognizing it, they're asking us to think of the lyrics and how they might apply to what's going on. With a recognizable song, they can instantly put a feeling into the show without any exposition.

[brermike]

I understand the critisizm about there possibly being no long-term plan, but why is this necessarily a bad thing? There is a show bible, the universe has rules, and there is also a cylon bible that the cylon actors have spoken about in interviews. I'm sure there was a plan for the final five cylons early on (judging from hints in previous episodes leading up to the first phrase "final five") but it sounds like to me they came up with who those final five are during the development of the season. Why is this so wrong? We don't know anything about these cylons other than that they are fundamentally different. My hunch is this goes back to the 13th tribe. We know from The Eye of Jupiter that there is some connection with the cylons and that tribe dating back thousands of years. Perhaps these final five are actually descendents from that tribe. If so it doesnt' really make any difference who they are, just what will happen next. I love shows that are planned out from the get go. I also love shows that aren't. Shows that are pre-planned are not necessarily better plus it keeps from any creative growth. What if the writers have this great idea that would make the show infinitly more interesting but they didn't write it in their bible in 2003 so it must be thrown away. That's ridiculous. The show is meant to entertain and as long as they do that and stay within the confines of the universe they created, then so be it. The 13th tribe and the whole "what has happened before will happen again" has been instilled since the first season, which is why I think there is a connection there. Anyway, just my two cents. I love the show (not every episode mind you) and don't consider myself an apologist, but look for something other than "plot hole" or "bad writing" and in most cases I find something much more interesting going on.

[jradford]

I'm with zalusky... personally, I think these are cylons DESCENDENTS OF the original cylons, or original 5 humanoid cylons. They weren't created, they were born, just like Hera. That would explain Tigh being in the military for 40 years. This would make them fundamentally different. Heck, they could be 2nd & 3rd generation (or in Tigh's case, 1st or 2nd).

As far as the rearrangement of All Along the Watchtower, they pretty much had to do it this way. It created a slow leadup, we had no idea what it was until Tigh said, "There must be some kinda way outta here." What Tyrol was humming certainly wasn't recognizable to me, I didn't even recognize it when they were all humming it together. I didn't mind it at all, I don't see it as another Earth thing they have, I see it more as an artistic thing. By us recognizing it, they're asking us to think of the lyrics and how they might apply to what's going on. With a recognizable song, they can instantly put a feeling into the show without any exposition.
I really like this theory. Descendants from the original 5 cylons who lived on earth with the humans, as they will again when they find earth. They seem to have had quite a bit of trouble getting there, but I kind of think they may have a plan set out for how to finish this whole series off pretty well. I wish they had started thinking about it a little earlier, though. :rolleyes:

Also, to smeek every previous poster: 2008? Are you kidding?

[NoThru22]

I will hang onto a show until the dear end (I never missed an episode of Alias) no matter how bad it gets and I was actually having doubts about Galactica after the second half of this season. But this episode was fantastic. I am shocked by all the negativity in the first few posts. I guess the tide's been going one way for a while and it's hard to swim the other.

I don't think we need "evidence" as to why they think they're Cylons. They heard that music and mysteriously all went to the same exact place. I thought it was made pretty clear that they all had a strong feeling that they were Cylons.

Perhaps they were born normally and grew up normally, unlike the other 8 models. This would lend credence to the theory that the current crop of humans are just descendents of the original Human/Cylon hybrids that came about from the last time this all happened (several thousand years ago.)

I rather liked it... So I should've known I'd come into one of these threads and find that most seemed to really hate it. :p
Now you know how we feel when you come into a Lost thread. :P :P

[MasterCephus]

I had a theory a while back that I think is getting more and more clearer that I might be right...


What if the cylons at the end aren't the cylons we know?

I believe that the reason the 7 cylons do not talk about the other cylons is that because they were barred from where they were. I believe that these 7 models banded together and some form of civil war ensued and they left and were banished.

The rest of the 5 models are what I am going to call "good" (how good, we don't know yet) and they are comprised of the 4 models we learned about at the end of this season. They won't harm the fleet, rather they will explain everything that happened, giving us (and the fleet) a better understanding of the cylons and probably we will start to feel pity for them.
----

Here is an option as well:

Starbuck:
1. She's really dead, but she is in Lee's head like #6 is with Baltar and Baltar with #6....

2. She's really been to earth and they are super advanced and she is flying an earth like Viper?

[latrobe7]

I understand the critisizm about there possibly being no long-term plan, but why is this necessarily a bad thing? ...it sounds like to me they came up with who those final five are during the development of the season. Why is this so wrong?IMO - because it is the core premise of the show. You want to have Chief build a Stealth fighter from scratch, and then destroy it, and then never go back to that newly acquired skill again? OK. You want to have Lee shacking up with some whore and become undercover cop for a week and then pretend it never happened? OK. How about making Starbuck - the best pilot in the fleet - nearly schizophrenic in her behaviors? All fine - well maybe not fine, but tolerable so long as some consistency is maintained and long-term thought given to the central plotline of the show: "And they have a plan"

What if the writers have this great idea that would make the show infinitly more interesting but they didn't write it in their bible in 2003 so it must be thrown away. That's ridiculous. Yes it is. However, I do not believe those I refer to above, or recent revelations (particularly Col. Tigh being a Cylon) are 'great ideas'. I think they could do all kinds of creative stuff yet still set a few firm rules to follow, like say to the writers, "OK, here's the 12 Cylons and their character traits. The Cylon 'plan' is XYZ. Write anything else you want, but don't contradict these few rules and do not reveal too much about them until we are ready"

The show is meant to entertain and as long as they do that and stay within the confines of the universe they created
I don't feel they do. I feel that the confines of this universe do not seem to be defined and are bendable at the writers’ whim.

I love the show (not every episode mind you)Oh my! What is this blasphemy I read?! Surely you need to re-watch the episodes you did not love. I bet if you look for something other than "plot hole" or "bad writing" and in most cases (you will) find something much more interesting going on. ;)

[TAsunder]

How to improve the show?

1. When you have an idea that is "cool" just skip it if it is a major change to things that happened in the past. You are not a 12 year old kid who decides that playing piano is no longer fun and now you want tennis lessons instead.

2. When you have an idea that is "cool" try introducting it slowly over multiple episodes rather than cramming it into one episode as a sudden change.

3. Stop trying to fit every single aspect of current society into a single episode, because certain issues are too complex to summarize at the end with a 45 second speech from adama/apollo/roslin.

4. Cut the part about "they have a plan" if you yourself as series creator do not yet have a plan.

As for planned vs unplanned... the problem is not that the show is unplanned, the problem is that the show is unplanned but written as if it were a planned show. That is exactly where a show like 24 fails. I watch 24 but it's hardly great writing the way complete 180s come up every 2 episodes. I don't want BSG to be like that.

I agree that it is very difficult to write a planned show. That is why The Wire is one of the best shows on TV, and B5 is still the crowning achievement of "planned in advance writing". The wire is a perfect example of planned improvisation. They have a general idea of where it goes each season. Major changes happen. Nothing retrofitted.

[latrobe7]

How to improve the show?

...
What he said!

[drew2k]

How is it that no one is upset that there are untagged spoilers (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5000965&&#post5000965) in this thread revealing the nature of the "four" (Tyrol, Torie, Anders, and Tigh), followed by quotes from the linked article?

This just pissed me off to no end, and I had to skim the rest of the thread to see if it pissed anyone else off, but apparently not!

Does no one read the rules of this forum? :down:

[Skittles]

I'm with zalusky... personally, I think these are cylons DESCENDENTS OF the original cylons, or original 5 humanoid cylons. They weren't created, they were born, just like Hera.That can't be. The Cylons were only created by the humans 50 years ago. They rebelled roughly 45 years ago.

[Rob Helmerichs]

How is it that no one is upset that there are untagged spoilers (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5000965&&#post5000965) in this thread revealing the nature of the "four" (Tyrol, Torie, Anders, and Tigh), followed by quotes from the linked article?
Probably because we are expected to know this, but since it didn't come across as clearly as intended in the show, Moore had to clarify in the interview.

[vikingguy]

I am not sure weather to laugh or be sad. They spend all this time to build up the final 5 to have freaking blanders of all people be one of them. Then the very end with starbuck returning blah I knew her death was to good to be true. The only good thing about a terrible last episode is it makes the wait to 2008 much easier. Thank god the shield starts up in 8 days so I can get my fix of gritty raw drama that BSG used to have.

[zalusky]

That can't be. The Cylons were only created by the humans 50 years ago. They rebelled roughly 45 years ago.

The Cylons we know as toasters but we haven't been told any back story on the earth tribe yet.

Doesn't seem interesting that the 4 became aware when they arrived in what I will call Earth space AKA the nebula that is a signpost pointing the way to earth.

This signpost was established thousands of years ago.

I somewhat like the idea of these people being descendants of original hybrids.

I wont call this a spoiler because its a speculation based on the last few episodes and the show to date and not upon the Moore articles.

What was the phrase: "Its all happened before and will happen again."

I am just curious on how and why the thirteenth tribe decided to leave.

[zalusky]

You know we should start a poll to see who likes the show and who doesnt.
I know in the Amazing Race there was a lot of Rob and Amber haters that seem to take over the thread but when they did the poll it was 2 to 1 for Rob and Amber.

[TAsunder]

Irrational. I and I'm sure many others like BSG in general but also complain about it a lot. Just because it's not "great" doesn't mean it's not "good". What grinds our gears is that it was "great" for a while and degenerated into "good" with the occasional "bad" episode or moment here and there due to improper planning and a creator who seems too casual about massive retro changes.

[aaronwt]

How is it that no one is upset that there are untagged spoilers (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5000965&&#post5000965) in this thread revealing the nature of the "four" (Tyrol, Torie, Anders, and Tigh), followed by quotes from the linked article?

This just pissed me off to no end, and I had to skim the rest of the thread to see if it pissed anyone else off, but apparently not!

Does no one read the rules of this forum? :down:

This whole thread is about the last episode. Why would anyone read this thread before watching the show? That makes no sense.

[mitchb2]

everyone is a cylon

LOL! "Your mom's a cylon."

And the entire BSG universe is a molecule of a giant's big toe.

[cheesesteak]

Ha! Battlestar Galactica is the new Lost. Everybody's pissed.

I liked this episode until Tigh mumbled "...said the Joker to the Thief..." I said "WTF? That's from All Along The Watchtower." After the President's secretary said "...I can't get no relief." I yelled "Nooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!" There's no way, no way, no way any version that song should be in the BSG universe. None. Zero. Nada. Zippo. I can live with the trial scene being a joke. I can live with the fact that the Final Four are a bunch of B-listers - The L.A. Clippers of Cylons. It's just that the blatant act of writing the lyrics of that song into dialog really saddened me. Why does BSG need pop culture references? Sigh.


Bob Dylan wrote All Along The Watchtower but after Jimi had his way with that song, nobody - and I mean nobody - should have touched it ever since.

[secondclaw]

I really enjoyed it - even Lee's testimony ... can't wait for '08 ...

What if ... the 'five' were affected by or connected with the 'entity' (or whatever it is - perhaps left over from 13th tribe to safeguard humanity) - under its influence they disappear - become traitors to the cylons - mingled with the humans on the 12 colonies. The seven decide to destroy the colonies in hope of destroying the 'five' - maybe out of fear - not knowing exactly where they are or what they look like ... I still remember Six in a basestar saying 'we don't talk of them' - did not sound like she revered them. D'anna believed them as gods and got boxed for it. With the colonies destroyed, the 'five' or the entity (whatever) tries to save humanity and lead them out - perhaps with the five being kept in reserve until they're needed. Think though - if it 'did happen before' - it would make sense to make sure that Tigh is in the right place to help Adama, Torie with the president, Anders helping Starbuck on nuked Caprica, and Tyrol ... well ...

As far as the 'entity' - assuming it/they are capable of projecting (like cylons) they may send images to the priests / prophets / oracles - provide images of Six, Baltar, and Leoben in corresponding heads, and even broadcast music / sounds when necessary - all to steer remains of humanity home. Even the power outage may have been staged to help the fleet - it may have shut down the base stars as well and prevented the fleet from being attacked before they were ready.

In any case - all these possibilities - THAT is the reason why I watch the show and still enjoy it!

[drew2k]

This whole thread is about the last episode. Why would anyone read this thread before watching the show? That makes no sense.Umm ... what?? :confused:

First, who says I didn't watch the episode yet? I posted very early in this thread.

Second, do you know the rules for spoilers of material that comes from external sources?

Third, did you note that the link I provided was to a post that provided information from an external source, and the information was not spoilerized?

Finally, people watch episodes and read these threads after watching the episodes to discuss the episode and join in speculation - not to have facts that were not presented in the episode confirmed from other sources.

[deaklet]

Okay, so who votes for Starbuck to click her heels three times only to wake up and realize it was all a dream?

[doom1701]

I still can't believe that everyone is taking this show at face value. You've really got two choices:

1. Take it at face value, and realize that it must be crap
2. See that there is something much bigger at work here, way beyond the idea that there are 5 "spylons" lurking around Galactica waiting to turn and kill everyone, way beyond "Starbuck is dead, and now she's not", and definately way beyond this concept that the Cylons are brainwashing people and causing power outages.

I've actually invested money in this show (well, $70 worth of DVD's to get caught up, since I didn't start watching until last fall), so I'm going with option 2. The "final 4", if you want to call them that, are not just random characters that Moore decided to turn into Spylons. They, along with the fifth, will be the ones to lead human and cylon alike to Earth. They aren't just humanoid cylon models that got boxed up and forgot about--they are the final part of the mythology that dates back thousands of years, back to the original 12 Lords of Kobol.

So, now that I've got my obligatory "You guys don't understand what the final 5 are" comment out of the way, a couple of questions:

1. As someone else mentioned, Starbuck and her ship looked different. In slowmo, the ship looked, for lack of a better word, clean. The metal around the cockpit glistened in the nebula. The ship itself showed no damage--the show has been very good pointing out how everything is beat to heck. Her ship was not.

2. When Starbuck is jockeying around Lee, we get a couple shots out of the cockpit of Lee's viper. Did anyone else thing that the image beyond his ship looked strangely like another ship--a very large ship? I intially thought it was just the cockpit--but he was in a newer viper, one without any framing around the cockpit.

[Malibyte]

OK...I've been a BSG II fan since the beginning. That said, I've been less than impressed with this past season. However, I still TiVo (or Myth) it every week.

This past episode: Using a very recognizable song really hokified it for me. Soon as I heard Tigh say the first line, I actually said out loud "said the joker to the thief". LOL. Now I'm waiting for them to pipe "The Times They Are A' Changing" over the intercom. They could have used some sort of exotic melody instead and it would have come off better.

The trial: Yeah, it was sort of predictable, but Apollo's tirade on the witness stand actually did come off pretty well, since it was for the most part true.

The "new" Cylons: Tyrol is a logical choice, as there was an episode or two in the past where he did wonder if he was a Cylon. I agree that Tigh is a lousy choice, simply because he's been an officer for most of his life (it doesn't work chronologically), he has so many human vices, etc. Roslin's aide doesn't make a whole lot of sense either, since we hardly know her. Dualla and Gaeta would have been much better, as someone has already mentioned, since they've both been so morally upstanding (at least until Gaeta lied on the stand during the trial - and using that as an angle would have worked, also - some of the other Cylons don't seem to think much of Baltar, either). Anders...can't figure him except for the fact that he was one of the guys they found on Caprica - but they were all resistance fighters, so there's not a whole lot of reason for that to work, either.

We all knew Starbuck was coming back...it was just a question as to how they pulled it off. The fact that her ship blew up and all of a sudden she's back in a newer model.... ????

I have to agree - the last several episodes seem much less well-threaded than the past seasons.

2008...Damn. I hope they do put some of the time to good use and recapture some of what made the first season or two so great.

Bob

[mitchb2]

Ha! Battlestar Galactica is the new Lost. Everybody's pissed.

I liked this episode until Tigh mumbled "...said the Joker to the Thief..." I said "WTF?

Actually, as soon as I heard one of "our" songs in the BSG universe, I wondered if that song was included in the broadcast of the probe we sent out in the 60's?

If not then, indeed, WTF. I can't get no satisfaction.

[mitchb2]

You'll be watching again in 08 ;)

Actually I'm very content that the show ends here.
It had a rough ending, but an incredible beginning and middle.

Those who choose to follow it to the bitter end are going to find alot of metaphysical B.S. cheats, not storytelling.

The linked article shows how clueless they are. There were several moments in the interview where I thought the guy was going to whip out a notepad and say "That's a great idea! We were stuck on that."

I think the best entertainment now is watching people try to come up with ways to defend it. These writers won a creative lotto. They spent it. Now they're screwed.

[hefe]

Ha! Battlestar Galactica is the new Lost. Everybody's pissed.

I liked this episode until Tigh mumbled "...said the Joker to the Thief..." I said "WTF? That's from All Along The Watchtower." After the President's secretary said "...I can't get no relief." I yelled "Nooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!" There's no way, no way, no way any version that song should be in the BSG universe. None. Zero. Nada. Zippo.
I wondered about that too. I was thinking that such an identifiable "earth song" must have been used to indicate an actual connection to the real earth. And then Starbuck said she had been to earth, so maybe there was some kind of communication going on that they all shared in.


Or not.

[Malibyte]

I'm thinking that maybe Black Sabbath's "Iron Man" or that '70s song "Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto" might have been a better choice, if they had to use an old Earth song....sigh.

[dcheesi]

I wondered about that too. I was thinking that such an identifiable "earth song" must have been used to indicate an actual connection to the real earth. And then Starbuck said she had been to earth, so maybe there was some kind of communication going on that they all shared in.


Or not.Right. The choice of a highly recognizable Earth song was not a coincidence. Even Ron Moore could have made up some other suitable gibberish-poetry* and had them all repeating it if he just wanted to have a shared memory/experience tying them all together. No, they're definitely signalling a link to Earth there. And of course the planet at the end of the gratuitous-zooming-effects-shot was clearly our real Earth, so why not involve our real Earth songs?

(*Not to belittle Dylan's songwriting talents or anything; I'm sure Moore's poetry wouldn't compare on that level, but then it wouldn't have to)

Without getting into the whole "who's the true cylon/hybrid/pure-human" metaphysical speculation: I'm thinking that the "final five" are representatives/operatives of Earth, which has been watching the colonies for a very long time. They began placing their operatives when the current cylon race was first being created in the colonies, before the first war broke out (hence Tigh's war record). Later they were involved in some way with the creation of the current "spylon" models.

[stalemate]

I don't know if it is better or worse for my viewing experience that I didn't recognize the song. For all I knew (before coming here), that song was made up 100% new for that episode.

[busyba]

Well, no, guys, it's not cool. It's stupid. It's only cool if two years ago Trump suddenly dumps a hot supermodel when she shows up for their third date, and when we look back at it we realize she was wearing a fur coat.
The writers obviously never read their Chekhov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov's_gun). :)

[busyba]

Here's what gets me.... when Badger called Lee to the stand, the prosecutrix objected--err excepted, and one of her grounds was that whatever Lee had to say would be more appropriately said in closing arguments, not from the stand.

So now that we've established, in dialogue, that Colonial Trial Procedure does in fact include closing arguments, what happens after the defense rests not ten minutes later? Closing arguments, you say? No, that would make sense. The judges just go off to deliberate on a verdict of course! :rolleyes:

[zalusky]

Here's what gets me.... when Badger called Lee to the stand, the prosecutrix objected--err excepted, and one of her grounds was that whatever Lee had to say would be more appropriately said in closing arguments, not from the stand.

So now that we've established, in dialogue, that Colonial Trial Procedure does in fact include closing arguments, what happens after the defense rests not ten minutes later? Closing arguments, you say? No, that would make sense. The judges just go off to deliberate on a verdict of course! :rolleyes:

Maybe its on the show room floor. Remember the suits told him to cut last week and this week from 90 minutes to 60 minutes. Thats a lot of dialog. Maybe he will put it back in the eventual DVD.

I remember the movie "Once upon a time in america" and the theatrical release was chopped from over three hours to the standard 100 minutes. The critics trashed it saying it made no sense. They eventually released it on DVD and in theaters at the full 3+ hours and the critics loved it.

[appleye1]

Maybe its on the show room floor. Remember the suits told him to cut last week and this week from 90 minutes to 60 minutes. Thats a lot of dialog. Maybe he will put it back in the eventual DVD.Well, it's possible it might be on the floor of the local Chevy dealer, but more than likely its on the "cutting room" floor. ;) :D

[appleye1]

Maybe that song they're hearing is actually from Earth, and something special about these people is causing them to "hear" radio transmissions from late sixties Earth.

I know, kind of wacky, but I like that idea better than I like the idea of the colonies having the exact same songs we have.

[zalusky]

Well, it's possible it might be on the floor of the local Chevy dealer, but more than likely its on the "cutting room" floor. ;) :D

Did my wife call you and tell you to make that post!

[cwerdna]

Probably because we are expected to know this, but since it didn't come across as clearly as intended in the show, Moore had to clarify in the interview.
Yeah, it was fairly obvious to me who the final 4 (or 5?) were from what happened in the ep. I haven't finished reading the article/confirmation.

Back to someone else's question, the issue at the station in the mini had to do w/the Cylon's "silica pathways". See http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Silica_pathways. I'd rewatched the mini in the background a few months ago which is why I remember.

ediit: Ok, I finished the article. Interesting, only 4 were confirmed.

[5thcrewman]

FM radio transmissions must mess up Cylons.
This also works with the fact that the Colonials' radios all sound like they're AM.

[doom1701]

We all knew Starbuck was coming back...it was just a question as to how they pulled it off. The fact that her ship blew up and all of a sudden she's back in a newer model.... ????

One other person mentioned this--but I don't know where it's coming from. Starbuck was in an old model viper (strangely clean looking, as I mentioned). Apollo was in the new model.

[cheesesteak]

I'm probably going to complain about BSG for the next couple of weeks but I know my TiVo and I will be there when it comes back in 2008.

I do like the previously posted idea that there's something about FM radio signals that mess with the brains of Cylons, or at least a few of them.

[Big_Daddy]

I also refuse to believe the "Human Four" are indeed Cylons. Otherwise, The Final Five would have been "de-robed" in Six's vision. They definetely kept that ambigious.

Personally, I'm confident the "Human Four" are not Cylons. I think they just had some pretty lousy dental work at some point in the past which is allowing them to pick up radio waves.

I also think this will be the plot behind the 2-hour fall miniseries. :p

Anyway, count me in the "I liked season 3 camp". I think the latter half of season 3 suffered, and I've never been a big fan of trial shows, but I think this does wrap up a fair number of storylines while hopefully propelling us to the show's conclusion.

[Sacrilegium]

I really enjoyed the episode. I don't see why people are so upset. I also don't think those are cylon models, they just think they are. For all we know, the Final 5 could be something beyond regular cylons. I am very intrigued and thought the episode was well done and quite creepy.
Ditto.

And I never thought Starbuck was off the show, using the original series as history.

[Anubys]

anyone notice that Kara's voice came in loud and clear (as if she's in the same room), not coming over ship to ship communication?

Mr. Roboto was an 80s song, by the way, not 70s...Styx released it in 82 or 83...

[doom1701]

anyone notice that Kara's voice came in loud and clear (as if she's in the same room), not coming over ship to ship communication?

Mr. Roboto was an 80s song, by the way, not 70s...Styx released it in 82 or 83...
Good point; another one to add to the oddities about Starbuck's appearance.

[TAsunder]

So was anyone able to get a sense of where that nebula is in the milky way galaxy? I'm assuming we are supposed to believe that they jumped into the milky way for the first time, right? I command you to pause it and plot the solar system and nebula on the still shot.

[dcheesi]

So was anyone able to get a sense of where that nebula is in the milky way galaxy? I'm assuming we are supposed to believe that they jumped into the milky way for the first time, right? I command you to pause it and plot the solar system and nebula on the still shot.I doubt they jumped all the way from another galaxy. They've already established that their jump engines have limited range, and the distance between galaxies is huge compared to even the distance from one side of a galaxy to the other.

OTOH, I do think it's clear that they're entered Earth's "sector" or region of influence.

[busyba]

I doubt they jumped all the way from another galaxy. They've already established that their jump engines have limited range, and the distance between galaxies is huge compared to even the distance from one side of a galaxy to the other.

OTOH, I do think it's clear that they're entered Earth's "sector" or region of influence.

A) they've made lots of jumps to get where they are

2) isn't "sector" smaller than "galaxy"?

EDIT: oh nevermind, I get it now. You're saying that their original solar system was in the same galaxy to begin with. Yeah, that works for me.

[TAsunder]

So if they didn't just arrive at the milky way then we can assume that shot really was pointless fluff that probably cost a decent chunk of change. They probably had leftover cgi budget because they didn't use any in all those pointless courtroom scenes.

[bonscott87]

So if they didn't just arrive at the milky way then we can assume that shot really was pointless fluff that probably cost a decent chunk of change. They probably had leftover cgi budget because they didn't use any in all those pointless courtroom scenes.

Ok. It was just to show you how close to Earth they really are in the grand scheme of things. It was pretty cool. We watched it 3 times. :D

[gkettell]

That shot wasn't pointless. It establishes that the Earth they are searching for actually exists, and that it is our Earth.

[jerobi]

That shot wasn't pointless. It establishes that the Earth they are searching for actually exists, and that it is our Earth.

Exactly.

[zalusky]

One interesting question about earth they haven't hinted at yet is time.

Is it earth at the time of the egyptians/mayans. Is it current day. Is it our future?

Is it the second coming as in the mormon doctrine?

[Anubys]

One interesting question about earth they haven't hinted at yet is time.

Is it earth at the time of the egyptians/mayans. Is it current day. Is it our future?

Is it the second coming as in the mormon doctrine?

since it's all greek myth, we can assume it started with the 13th colony coming to earth and bring their myth with them...and since this the 13th colony left 2,000 years ago...you can do the math!

[doom1701]

since it's all greek myth, we can assume it started with the 13th colony coming to earth and bring their myth with them...and since this the 13th colony left 2,000 years ago...you can do the math!

I thought that the 13th colony did their travelling 4000 years ago--at least that was the age of the Temple of Five, right?

[Anubys]

I thought that the 13th colony did their travelling 4000 years ago--at least that was the age of the Temple of Five, right?

I wasn't sure about the number of years...don't know why 2,000 stuck in my mind...could very well be 4,000 years...

[getbak]

One interesting question about earth they haven't hinted at yet is time.

Is it earth at the time of the egyptians/mayans. Is it current day. Is it our future?

Is it the second coming as in the mormon doctrine?
I took the fact that the 4 maybe-cylons were hearing an Earth song that was originally released in the late 1960s as a clue to the time frame. It doesn't mean that it is the 60s, but it's at least past the 1960s.

[busyba]

That shot wasn't pointless. It establishes that the Earth they are searching for actually exists, and that it is our Earth.
I thought Jimi Hendrix did that already. ;)

[gchance]

I thought Jimi Hendrix did that already. ;)

Maybe it all means that Jimi was the first Cylon, and these are his descendants. When he said, "Excuse me, while I kiss this guy" he was really making babies.

Greg

[Rob Helmerichs]

On the other hand, constellations change over time, and since the 4000-year-old constellations they saw in the Star Room were ours, that means it must be 4000 years in the future of a time that can't be TOO far in our past...

Then again, that's science, so it's probably not a factor in their thinking... :D

[latrobe7]

All Along the Watchtower is another 'issue' for me - OK, so if it is something that is supposed to exist independently in the BSG universe, I feel that's kind of lame, they could have come up with similar sentiment without using Dylan's words; and if it's supposed to have come from Earth it bugs me because of the language thing. I mean it's kind of convention in everything from sci-fi to WWII movies that the Germans or aliens or whatever are really speaking their own language, but for the sake of telling the story the actors are speaking English. That's fine usually, because English speakers usually aren't around so there's no problem. But in this case the implication is that English has evolved independently on Earth and in the 12 colonies (because the iconography comes from ancient Greece, so we know the 13th tribe did not speak English) I know this should not bother me, considering Star Trek, for example, always just ignored this issue and had everyone speak English for the most part. However, I guess I'm just hypersensitive to these things with BSG lately... :o

[TonyD79]

My complaint is I wish many of you would be more specific on how to improve things

Why? We are the viewers, not the writers of the show. There are lots of ways the show could go but we should not be telling the story or critiquing beyond "I didn't like that. It makes no sense."

The WRITERS are the ones who are supposed to write and make it interesting. If we did it, then why even have writers? Why even watch a TV show. We could just sit around and talk to ourselves, making up stories.

Do you go into an art museum and add paint to the paintings if there is something you don't like?

BSG still has some redeeming qualities but consistency and logic in storytelling are not on the list.

I agree with Rob H. Doing something (like making these four Cylons) just because you have the power to do so as the writer is lame. The writing gets weaker and weaker. It was obvious that consistency was not a strength of the writers when this show started but there were compelling storylines (no, I will not define what a compelling storyline would be at this point because I want to be entertained, not do the legwork for weak writers) and characters we cared about.

At this point, I care NOTHING for any of them. And when the writers openly admit that anything is fair game just because they can do it with their typewriters then the people and events become nonsense. You need non-nonsense to make everything feel real enough for anyone to care.

I don't care anymore. And the bad writing did that to me.

[TAsunder]

But if they were already in the milky way galaxy the whole time, how does it show us something useful? At any point in the series history they could have done that.

[TonyD79]

Irrational. I and I'm sure many others like BSG in general but also complain about it a lot. Just because it's not "great" doesn't mean it's not "good". What grinds our gears is that it was "great" for a while and degenerated into "good" with the occasional "bad" episode or moment here and there due to improper planning and a creator who seems too casual about massive retro changes.

+1

I am not complaining about "Legion of Super Heroes" on the CW Saturday morning. I am complaining about a show that used my intelligence but now laughs at it.

[TonyD79]

Umm ... what?? :confused:

First, who says I didn't watch the episode yet? I posted very early in this thread.

Second, do you know the rules for spoilers of material that comes from external sources?

Third, did you note that the link I provided was to a post that provided information from an external source, and the information was not spoilerized?

Finally, people watch episodes and read these threads after watching the episodes to discuss the episode and join in speculation - not to have facts that were not presented in the episode confirmed from other sources.

I don't see it that way.

The SHOW said they were Cylons. It wasn't speculation. It was in the script.

I don't see why you are upset at all.

If someone posted that Lucas affirmed that Darth was Luke's father after Empire, would you be ticked off?

Since when is it a spoiler when the writer re-iterates what he wrote?

[busyba]

If someone posted that Lucas affirmed that Darth was Luke's father after Empire
Uhhhh... you wanna tag that? :mad:



:p

[markz]

I don't see it that way.

The SHOW said they were Cylons. It wasn't speculation. It was in the script.

I don't see why you are upset at all.

If someone posted that Lucas affirmed that Darth was Luke's father after Empire, would you be ticked off?

Since when is it a spoiler when the writer re-iterates what he wrote?

The SHOW didn't STATE for a FACT that they were Cylons. The show asked it in a question... "So that's it...all of a sudden a switch is thrown and we are all Cylons?"

No one during the episode confirmed that it was in fact true.

[TonyD79]

The SHOW didn't STATE for a FACT that they were Cylons. The show asked it in a question... "So that's it...all of a sudden a switch is thrown and we are all Cylons?"

No one during the episode confirmed that it was in fact true.

That is as much a fact as any script is going to say unless it is "How I Met Your Mother" and there is a narrator.

All the article did was restate what was already stated.

It is the fault of the bad writing that there was ambiguity. If the WRITER never intended any ambiguity, why should the clarification be a spoiler?

As for the last statement, I give you this example. The president says her cancer is back. Did anyone back that up? So is it a fact or not?

[busyba]

I can see how some people might have found it ambiguous, but I'd say that the writers' stated intent trumps a viewer's perceptions in this case.

[markz]

That is as much a fact as any script is going to say unless it is "How I Met Your Mother" and there is a narrator.

All the article did was restate what was already stated.

It is the fault of the bad writing that there was ambiguity. If the WRITER never intended any ambiguity, why should the clarification be a spoiler?

As for the last statement, I give you this example. The president says her cancer is back. Did anyone back that up? So is it a fact or not?

Not to pick nits, but when we found out that Boomer was a Cylon, they SAID she was NOT, but showed us the test results. And then seeing duplicates of her and other people confirmed they were Cylons.

As for the President's cancer being back...no one backed it up. But asking "My cancer is back?" does not equal stating "My cancer is back."

The four people from that room have come to the realization that they may be Cylons, but nothing has indicated that they KNOW they are Cylons. And from the amount of people posting here that they think those four are not really Cylons but merely brainwashed or something, points to the ambiguity of the story.

And then linking to an interview without spoilerizing what it says is as they say in court "entering facts not in evidence".

We now KNOW something from reading this thread that we did not KNOW by just watching the show.

Doesn't matter to me because I would read the spoilers anyway, but I can understand why other people are upset.

[Skittles]

Not to pick nits, but when we found out that Boomer was a Cylon, they SAID she was NOT, but showed us the test results. And then seeing duplicates of her and other people confirmed they were Cylons.Uhm, I'm pretty sure that they never said she wasn't a Cylon or even suggested as such. We knew she was from as far back as the last 60 seconds of the miniseries, when they showed her walking into Ragnar Station. And the tests that Dr. Baltar ran on her later in season 1 did confirm she was a Cylon. I don't think there was ever any doubt that Boomer was a Cylon since the ending of the miniseries.

[markz]

Uhm, I'm pretty sure that they never said she wasn't a Cylon or even suggested as such. We knew she was from as far back as the last 60 seconds of the miniseries, when they showed her walking into Ragnar Station. And the tests that Dr. Baltar ran on her later in season 1 did confirm she was a Cylon. I don't think there was ever any doubt that Boomer was a Cylon since the ending of the miniseries.

I know that we knew she was. I may be misremembering Baltar telling her that the test was negative even though we saw the indication on screen that she was a Cylon.

[dcheesi]

All Along the Watchtower is another 'issue' for me - OK, so if it is something that is supposed to exist independently in the BSG universe, I feel that's kind of lame, they could have come up with similar sentiment without using Dylan's words; and if it's supposed to have come from Earth it bugs me because of the language thing. I mean it's kind of convention in everything from sci-fi to WWII movies that the Germans or aliens or whatever are really speaking their own language, but for the sake of telling the story the actors are speaking English. That's fine usually, because English speakers usually aren't around so there's no problem. But in this case the implication is that English has evolved independently on Earth and in the 12 colonies (because the iconography comes from ancient Greece, so we know the 13th tribe did not speak English) I know this should not bother me, considering Star Trek, for example, always just ignored this issue and had everyone speak English for the most part. However, I guess I'm just hypersensitive to these things with BSG lately... :oThis is an issue, but there are plenty of excuses retcons explanations for it :) First of all, they never said the words to anyone else, IIRC not even directly to each other. So they could have been hearing/reciting them in English, which would only further prove that they're something other than Colonials. Or they could have been speaking the equivalent phrases in Colonialese, and we just heard it in English.

[Skittles]

I know that we knew she was. I may be misremembering Baltar telling her that the test was negative even though we saw the indication on screen that she was a Cylon.Right, but they do a pretty good job of explaining that the only confusion is Sharon's, and that she really is a Cylon. I just think you worded your point a little bit poorly in context with what you quoted. :)

[TAsunder]

I know that we knew she was. I may be misremembering Baltar telling her that the test was negative even though we saw the indication on screen that she was a Cylon.

That was wayyyyyy after we already knew with 100% certainty that she is a cylon.

The scene did not play at all like the four weren't sure they were cylons. That's what I found confusing. It played like they were CERTAIN they were cylons. But it was not explained to the audience why the characters were so certain. By not explaining, they left open the possibility of a really weak jumping of the shark, wherein simply due to bad writing, the characters were absolutely convinced of it for no reason and it was false but put there and phrased in the manner phrased solely for melodramatic cliffhanger value.

[ReenieS]

...I'm actually of the opinion that the four only think they're Cylons based on something that was done to them on New Caprica. Now that the "switch" has been flipped, the Cylons may or may not be able to exert some type of control over them. ...

Music is often used as a cue for brainwashing (in the movies I've seen). That song could have been used as a trigger for the "brainwashed" four from captivity.

[ReenieS]

Or it doesn't matter who the "final 5" are, since they weren't Cylon plants to begin with.

That's all I'm sayin'--at least until I watch the episode.


Another theory: Maybe the "new" cylons were substituted on New Caprica while in captivity?

[mostman]

Another theory: Maybe the "new" cylons were substituted on New Caprica while in captivity?

Maybe they were cloned?

[hefe]

So, if a female cylon can reproduce with a male human, (Boomer) and a male cylon can reproduce with a female human (Tyrol) then why can't two cylons just git it on?

[zalusky]

Why? We are the viewers, not the writers of the show. There are lots of ways the show could go but we should not be telling the story or critiquing beyond "I didn't like that. It makes no sense."

The WRITERS are the ones who are supposed to write and make it interesting. If we did it, then why even have writers? Why even watch a TV show. We could just sit around and talk to ourselves, making up stories.

Do you go into an art museum and add paint to the paintings if there is something you don't like?

BSG still has some redeeming qualities but consistency and logic in storytelling are not on the list.

I agree with Rob H. Doing something (like making these four Cylons) just because you have the power to do so as the writer is lame. The writing gets weaker and weaker. It was obvious that consistency was not a strength of the writers when this show started but there were compelling storylines (no, I will not define what a compelling storyline would be at this point because I want to be entertained, not do the legwork for weak writers) and characters we cared about.

At this point, I care NOTHING for any of them. And when the writers openly admit that anything is fair game just because they can do it with their typewriters then the people and events become nonsense. You need non-nonsense to make everything feel real enough for anyone to care.

I don't care anymore. And the bad writing did that to me.

Its so easy to crap on things. This forum is for discussion but crapping is not a discussion. A real debate involves CONSTRUCTIVE criticism and when many people simply say "It Sucks" that is not constructive. I am suggesting people clearly state what they like and possibilities on how to change what they don't like into things they do like.

Some people have actually done that.

You sound like a bad date that with a sullen face and expects his partner to figure it out.

[eddyj]

So, if a female cylon can reproduce with a male human, (Boomer) and a male cylon can reproduce with a female human (Tyrol) then why can't two cylons just git it on?
Because it would make too much sense, and destroy the totally artificial importance of Hera and/or other hybrid babies. :D

[dswallow]

So, if a female cylon can reproduce with a male human, (Boomer) and a male cylon can reproduce with a female human (Tyrol) then why can't two cylons just git it on?
Much like you need male sperm and a female egg, there's a missing component between two Cylons. The only way to obtain it is through intercourse with a human.

[drew2k]

The SHOW didn't STATE for a FACT that they were Cylons. The show asked it in a question... "So that's it...all of a sudden a switch is thrown and we are all Cylons?"

No one during the episode confirmed that it was in fact true.Thank you for this post. I'm glad someone understands where I'm coming from on this. :o

[TAsunder]

But the show did not ask it in that question. As portrayed on the show, the characters concluded they were cylons without any discussion and little doubt. The question quoted above is about the nature of how they found out. It is not "a switch was flipped... are we cylons now?" it was "how can it be that we can be cylons now after just a simple flipping of the switch?" It was more philosophical in nature. They accept that they are cylons but don't get how it is possible. That is different than wondering whether they are cylons.

Edit: so, the show left it uncertain not because they directly suggested the possibility that it was false, but because they did not elaborate on why they thought it was true.

[Bierboy]

...At least Stargate will be on in a couple of weeks........Stargate is the worst excuse for SciFi I have EVER seen.

[Bierboy]

This Episode: Thumbs Up! I'm stunned to see so many didn't like it. ...I agree....I enjoyed it, though the music stuff dragged too long.

[drew2k]

Let me put it this way: This series has presented many different points of view and offered many scenarios and plot elements that have sometimes been dropped and have sometimes mushroomed into very important storylines. These four characters are only surmising that they are Cylons, because something weird happened to them, so until I read the untagged spooler, I would have had no idea which way the story would go when the series returned.

Think of Boomer in Episodes 2 and 3. She suspected she was a Cylon. We suspected it. But it was great to have it confirmed IN THE SHOW later on that she a Cylon rather than having it spoiled with a quote from an article while we were still speculating.

Let's look at another storyline: At this point in the series, Lee and Bill Adama are estranged, and Lee took it upon himself to jump in a viper, but he is not an officer. We don't know what will happen when the series resumes, but we know there is tension between Lee and his father and we don't know how long it will last. What if Ron Moore gave an interview and said Lee and Bill will never reconcile, and someone linked that info in this thread without spoilerizing it? Would you want to know that the estrangement is confirmed or would you like to watch the series one episode at a time and learn that for yourself?

I think you know my answer.

[TAsunder]

I understand your viewpoint, but we'll have to disagree about the boomer analogy. I do not think there was much doubt even at the start of the series. I can't remember why but I don't recall it that way.

[hefe]

Much like you need male sperm and a female egg, there's a missing component between two Cylons. The only way to obtain it is through intercourse with a human.
But the male and female models seem to have their half of the equation all figured out, so where does the need for a human come in?

[getbak]

I understand your viewpoint, but we'll have to disagree about the boomer analogy. I do not think there was much doubt even at the start of the series. I can't remember why but I don't recall it that way.
It was revealed that she was a cylon at the end of the miniseries.

I don't believe we had been shown any doubt on her part prior to that to indicate she feared she might be a cylon. Anything that would have given away that she was having those feelings would have ruined the "holy crap" moment of the final shot.

[Unbeliever]

First of all, they never said the words to anyone else, IIRC not even directly to each other.

Tigh said the "There's too much confusion" directly to Admiral Adama when he was trying to convince the admiral that there were saboteurs on board. If I remember correctly, which I probably don't, I think it was after he muttered "There's must be some kind of way out of here" under his breath.

--Carlos V.

[NoThru22]

But the male and female models seem to have their half of the equation all figured out, so where does the need for a human come in?
The Cylons said in the episode where they harvested Kara's eggs that the physical connection wasn't enough. They needed love to procreate.

[Church AV Guy]

Let me put it this way: This series has presented many different points of view and offered many scenarios and plot elements that have sometimes been dropped and have sometimes mushroomed into very important storylines. These four characters are only surmising that they are Cylons, because something weird happened to them, so until I read the untagged spooler, I would have had no idea which way the story would go when the series returned.
I think many of us understand your position just fine, what YOU are missing is a fact. The information was presented in a artsy sort of way that left some ambiguity, are they, or aren't they. THIS WAS UNINTENTIONAL. Later, when some members of the audience said that what they SAW was inconclusive, the producers explicitly stated that they never meant it to be ambiguous. They fully intended it to be definitive that YES they are. That was their intent, and you need to know that for them to continue the story, because they are going to write it assuming that we all know for certain, otherwise people would ask, "When was THAT established?"

You can't call it a spoiler if the writing was accidentally done in a manner that left an incorrect interpretation, and the "spoiler" is correcting that misunderstanding. The clarification is not a spoiler. It is only a spoiler if the writer intended to be ambiguous. That clearly was not the case here. They released the information in the manner that did, to specifically eliminate any question, which was their original intent in the show. The cut from 90 minutes to 60 forced them to remove some content. Maybe the unintentional ambiguity was the result of the cuts.

[jimmymac]

I'm wondering if any of the people bitching about the writing have done any writing themselves?

While I've been less than thrilled this season with BSG, I can understand what may have happened because I've seen my own writing veer off into unplanned tangents. If BSG's writers did start out with a plan, they may have strayed from the plan because some other idea came up or somebody asked the question "what if?"

I've been working on a novel for a few years. I started out with a complete outline detailing what I wanted to happen in each and every chapter. Along the way something changed. A person mention in conversation by one of my main characters suddenly appeared and I was intrigued and decided to continue writing this character, mostly because the character was a lot of fun to write. The problem was that the introduction of this character changed the entire 2nd half of the novel and I'm still working on fixing things in the first half to make the introduction of this character work. Since it's a work in progress this is something I can do. The problem is in episodic television when a writer does something like this and from listening to the podcasts I suspect that Ronald Moore is somebody who enjoys taking the tangents as the ideas pop into his head. The problem is that viewers remember all the stuff leading up to certain events in the series and remember the inconsistencies. The thing is that for many writers that I have talked to, when this happens it's usually a lot of fun for the writer which I think can make for issues on a TV show.

I also suspect that it's also difficult working in a medium where you may or may not get to finish telling your story. What you may want to do might take 6 seasons and you only get 4.

I wish I wasn't as bothered by the things that seem to be pulled out of somebody's ass and I've been agonizing on trying to fix the problems I created when I went off on a tangent in my own writing.

[cwerdna]

Its so easy to crap on things. This forum is for discussion but crapping is not a discussion. A real debate involves CONSTRUCTIVE criticism and when many people simply say "It Sucks" that is not constructive. I am suggesting people clearly state what they like and possibilities on how to change what they don't like into things they do like.

Why does it really need to be constructive? Will Ron Moore and the BSG writing staff read this thread and adjust/make changes based on it?

[smak]

That was wayyyyyy after we already knew with 100% certainty that she is a cylon.

The scene did not play at all like the four weren't sure they were cylons. That's what I found confusing. It played like they were CERTAIN they were cylons. But it was not explained to the audience why the characters were so certain. By not explaining, they left open the possibility of a really weak jumping of the shark, wherein simply due to bad writing, the characters were absolutely convinced of it for no reason and it was false but put there and phrased in the manner phrased solely for melodramatic cliffhanger value.

Well, i'd put it this way. In 5 years, if you are doing a marathon BSG festival at your house, it might take 5 minutes of screentime for the show to fully explain to your satisfaction exactly what is happening wiith those 4.

Problem is, that 5 minutes won't happen until at least 10 months from now. So it's easy right now to think they just threw it in with no thought.

Out of all the complaints, the one i don't quite understand is that there's no explanation for them thinking they are cylons.

They are machines. They have programming. Their programming could be that they are to not know they are cylons until x. x could be anything. It could be that when they are x light years from earth. Who knows.

The fact they heard the music, and it led them all to the same place, and that they just didn't wake up 1 morning and say "i'm a cylon" leads me to believe that the writers do know what's going to happen here.

And the fact that they are going through this nebula on the way to Earth, and they are probably the closest they've ever been to Earth, and the song they "hear" is a known Earth song, leads me to believe that what's going on with those 4 has something to do with Earth.

-smak-

[yaddayaddayadda]

Of all the 4 'cylons' the one that ticks me off the most is Tigh.

Supposedly the timeline goes like this, right?

Year X : Humans create cylons
Year X + n : Cylons rebel (presumably the original toasters) and a war starts. Tigh fights in that war with Adama
Year Y : War is over
Year Y + 40 : No known contact with any cylons, but presumably during this time, they're developing skinjobs and 'evolving'.
Year Z: Second Cylon Attack
Year Z + 2-3: Tigh discovers he's a cylon.

Unless he was killed and replaced at some point, he's older than the skinjobs. If he can be killed and replaced, why bother with the assistant to the president. Why not replace Adama, Tigh, and the President....have them surrender yet again to the cylons and be done with it.

I think it will irritate me more if they turn out to truly be cylons than if it turns out to be a 'dream' or 'hypnosis' whatever.

[Anubys]

But the male and female models seem to have their half of the equation all figured out, so where does the need for a human come in?

my only hope is the answer to this question is NOT: because only humans have "souls"...

[TAsunder]

Out of all the complaints, the one i don't quite understand is that there's no explanation for them thinking they are cylons.

They are machines. They have programming. Their programming could be that they are to not know they are cylons until x. x could be anything. It could be that when they are x light years from earth. Who knows.

:confused:

The above is 100% speculation.

And no one was even arguing against this so-called point. The issue being argued here is whether that interview was a spoiler or not, and that depends on whether the writers intended it to be an open ended question or not. Someone said that the characters themselves weren't sure, but I pointed out that is not true. Where is this complaint you speak of? Being confused was not a complaint. My only complaint was, if they turn out not to be cylons, then the show jumped the shark.

[Anubys]

:confused:

The above is 100% speculation.

And no one was even arguing against this so-called point. The issue being argued here is whether that interview was a spoiler or not, and that depends on whether the writers intended it to be an open ended question or not. Someone said that the characters themselves weren't sure, but I pointed out that is not true. Where is this complaint you speak of? Being confused was not a complaint. My only complaint was, if they turn out not to be cylons, then the show jumped the shark.

agreed...I was fully prepared to argue that these 4 people were NOT cylons...my hypothesis was that a hypnotic suggestion was planted on New Caprica that made them tune the song and then converge on one spot...the timing was such and their importance was such that it was a great strategic advantage to have these 4 people out of commission at that time...

the interview made me reconsider that hypothesis...I still think it MIGHT be true, but now I have to concede that it is unlikely...

[kaszeta]

Year X : Humans create cylons
Year X + n : Cylons rebel (presumably the original toasters) and a war starts. Tigh fights in that war with Adama
Year Y : War is over
Year Y + 40 : No known contact with any cylons, but presumably during this time, they're developing skinjobs and 'evolving'.
Year Z: Second Cylon Attack
Year Z + 2-3: Tigh discovers he's a cylon.

Between old episodes and the podcasts, you can actually recreate, reasonably consistently, your timeline above (oh, there are inconsistencies and retcons galore, but not in these events):

1. 52 years before the beginning of the miniseries, both the Articles of Colonization and the Cylon War happened.
2. Cylon war lasted for 15 years.
3. 40 years later, Cylons return.
4. It's less than three years after that the Four think that they're Cylons.

It's a little vague as to when the Cylons got created, which I think is the whole the writers are playing with, in that the "final five Cylons" are a fundamentally different type of Cylon that predates the rest of the Cylons by a significant amount of time. The whole "has happened before thing"....

[TAsunder]

Well, I hate to get semantic, but how can they be the "final 5" if other cylon models were created afterwards? I guess it could be final like those who will remain at the end.

[jradford]

my only hope is the answer to this question is NOT: because only humans have "souls"...
Oh, God. That would be comically bad. I would take your post as a joke, but I think everyone would agree that it wouldn't be terribly surprising.

[gchance]

I'm wondering if any of the people bitching about the writing have done any writing themselves?

You can see the difference between good & bad writing without being a good writer yourself. By your logic, people who aren't musicians can't tell the difference between good & bad music.

Writing is difficult. Nobody ever said that it wasn't. If it was easy, we'd all do it.

I do agree with what you were saying regarding what gets produced. With a weekly TV series, you can't get to a point and then say, "Crap, now I need to change this earlier part" since everyone already has it. They can't produce the entire season and then redo the earlier part because something changed along the way. This is why retcon happens.

But then some writers have successfully done retcons. Look at Tolkien re: the story of Bilbo & the ring. "You can believe Bilbo if you want, but THIS is how it really happened."

Personally, I don't mind bad writing all that much as long as it doesn't become an ongoing problem. Everyone has bad days, bad work. Heck, bands have entire sets of bad albums and then come back with wonderful stuff later. The same goes for writers, the same goes for TV shows.

Greg

[TAsunder]

I've tried writing and it's hard. But I've also played golf, tennis, and basketball. Those are even harder. And yet I still yell at the TV screen when vince carter doesn't box out or when Justine Henin-Hardenne cheats during the french open.

[Jeeters]

Well, I hate to get semantic, but how can they be the "final 5" if other cylon models were created afterwards? I guess it could be final like those who will remain at the end.I thought "final five" just meant the 5 out of 12 models that have yet to be identified.

[zalusky]

Why does it really need to be constructive? Will Ron Moore and the BSG writing staff read this thread and adjust/make changes based on it?

You never know. I believe his team is aware of various internet threads/pulse. Whether this forum is one of them who knows. Members may visit other forums from here and spread information virally and still possibly get back to him.

However my point applies to a lot of the threads in the TV talk forum. There are people who just come across as uneducated by simply retorting "This Sucks" with no redeeming value.

Imagine any other situation, you at work and your boss just says "Your work sucks" with no other feedback. Your kids tell all your friends "You suck as a parent".

Its not the complaining thats an issue, its the lack of analytical reasoning and constructive solution that makes the point come across badly.

Looking at this thread you can clearly see the two types of posts.

When I see people post that way, I consciously lower my opinion of them and they may be great people but they come across as unintelligent and self centered just looking for attention vs trying to make a point.

[nedthelab]

Did a mini marathon BSG last night - caught up last three eps. I gotta say I was not as critical of the Singing Cylons as most on this thread. Yes it was a tad goofy during the humm along scene as they figured it out but I think as the Chief said "so that's it a switch just goes off" a tool to tie them together -- very odd choice in a song though.

Starbuck coming out of no where--- ehhh

One thing that has never been explained is how these Cylongs (from Sharron to the new crop) were planted into human society. When they are created and/or resurrect they are at their adult age (Dean Stockwell emerges as a 60 year old guy etc). So are their Cylon babies that grow to adult hood? Col Tie could not have just appeared as a bald cranky old dude.

[Rob Helmerichs]

However my point applies to a lot of the threads in the TV talk forum. There are people who just come across as uneducated by simply retorting "This Sucks" with no redeeming value.
But that isn't what's happening here. The BG detractors have gone into exhaustive detail as to why exactly it has been sucking. The leading candidates are bad science, inconsistent characterization, and arbitrary plotting; see any of the countless and lengthy episode threads for many, many details.

And as noted, it's not our responsibility to fix it.

[latrobe7]

my only hope is the answer to this question is NOT: because only humans have "souls"...

Oh, God. That would be comically bad. I would take your post as a joke, but I think everyone would agree that it wouldn't be terribly surprising.

Can you say "midi-chlorian"? ;)

[zalusky]

But that isn't what's happening here. The BG detractors have gone into exhaustive detail as to why exactly it has been sucking. The leading candidates are bad science, inconsistent characterization, and arbitrary plotting; see any of the countless and lengthy episode threads for many, many details.

And as noted, it's not our responsibility to fix it.

I said that their are some people that have articulated their point and have even persuaded me in some situations. There are plenty of others who have not and just troll.

Look at the first dozen or so posts of each week.

[Skittles]

I said that their are some people that have articulated their point and have even persuaded me in some situations. There are plenty of others who have not and just troll.Because people don't articulate their dislike for an episode, they're trolls?

[wedgecon]

I think the theory that the 5 Cylon models are also the 5 lords of kobol is looking better and better.

[MassD]

This is an issue, but there are plenty of excuses retcons explanations for it :) First of all, they never said the words to anyone else, IIRC not even directly to each other. So they could have been hearing/reciting them in English, which would only further prove that they're something other than Colonials. Or they could have been speaking the equivalent phrases in Colonialese, and we just heard it in English.

It's more simple than that... it's just a plot convenience. The colonies speak English...

That may be a bit far fetched of course, but it's called science fiction for a reason. Being 100% down the line realistic and accurate would be unwieldy and, in many cases, impossible to do while keep the story going. The writers' first and overriding priority is to write a drama... if a particular story line requires them to fudge some things, then they fudge some things.

This is a trap that many, including me, have fallen into at time while watching Sci-Fi... we have to sometimes sacrifice reality and go with the flow. So they speak english... So LaForge needs to adjust the Heisenberg Compensator... it's all part of the game.

[philw1776]

So was anyone able to get a sense of where that nebula is in the milky way galaxy? I'm assuming we are supposed to believe that they jumped into the milky way for the first time, right? I command you to pause it and plot the solar system and nebula on the still shot.

You have GOT to be kidding if you think that there's anything remotely astronomically valid about BSG's universe.

[philw1776]

Finally catching up because I TiVo the show. Add me to the growing list of those who have lost their prior respect for this once excellent show's descent into incoherence. What's the point of any analysis or speculation based upon what's transpired when the writers admittedly make it up as they go along 24 style? I dropped 24 once the uniqueness wore off and followed it sporadically simply for the comedic value expressed in 24 blogs.

The absurdity of the Tige timeline is just the latest insult to viewers who attempted any understanding of the Cylon mystery, which was the heart of the show's creative aspect. We now have it confirmed that the writers did not have a plan and were frankly too lazy to establish one, deciding arbitrarily who was a final 4 or 5 Spylon as late as this season, with no setup whatsoever.

Watching BSG has sadly been transformed into the fascination of watching a slow motion train wreck. A very slow motion wreck.

[zalusky]

Because people don't articulate their dislike for an episode, they're trolls?

Depending on how its said, it can certainly be perceived that way.

"Starbuck is a slut" and "This show sucks" stated by themselves without any other explanation to me sound pretty inflammatory.

[drew2k]

I think many of us understand your position just fine, what YOU are missing is a fact. The information was presented in a artsy sort of way that left some ambiguity, are they, or aren't they. THIS WAS UNINTENTIONAL. Sorry, but here's the fact YOU'RE missing: This episode did not answer the question of whether or not the 4 people were Cylons - the article answered it. There is no disputing this, as you even admit it was ambiguous in the episode. It doesn't matter whether or not that ambiguity was intentional - the fact remains that the episode didn't settle the issue, the article did. The quote should have been in spoiler tags.

By the way, I got it wrong earlier with the timing on Boomer's Cylone reveal - I forgot that we learned it at the end of the mini-series. Can you imagine the anger here at TCF, though, if when Baltar was speculating about his own Cylon status if someone posted a quote from Ron Moore that definitively settled it, and that quote wasn't in spoiler tags???

[Skittles]

"Starbuck is a slut" and "This show sucks" stated by themselves without any other explanation to me sound pretty inflammatory.I can somewhat agree with you on the former (because, to be fair, she kinda does sleep around... ), but not so much on the latter. There are a lot of people who have valid complaints about the show who just post "This show sucks", or things of that nature. It's not necessarily to be inflammatory, it could just be their honest opinion of the show. Now, would it be better if they fleshed out their dislike? Sure. But it's not really fair to say those posters are trolls, because some of the folks who post things like that have very genuine opinions that never get posted here.

Besides, the show does kinda suck. ;) :D

[MickeS]

the writers did not have a plan and were frankly too lazy to establish one, deciding arbitrarily who was a final 4 or 5 Spylon as late as this season, with no setup whatsoever.

Almost every complaint I have about this show at this point (and boy, there are a lot), can be summed up with "no setup whatsoever". Almost every storyline, every character, every episode seems to be made up on the spot, and with no thought to what came before it. It makes it hard to relate to any of the interactions between characters, because there is no emotional investment in any of what is going on.

If I recall correctly, the first episode where this stood out was "Black market", where a whole backstory was set up for Apollo, that just came out of nowhere. I loved that episode at the time though (it had enough other stuff going for it that it worked anyway for me), and figured that the problem with the out-of-the-blue backstory was just a one-time thing. But apparently it was an indicator of things to come... I guess that's where the show started its descent into mediocrity.

[MickeS]

Sorry, but here's the fact YOU'RE missing: This episode did not answer the question of whether or not the 4 people were Cylons
I thought it did. It wouldn't have occurred to me that they would think they were Cylons just like that otherwise. Why would they have?

It wasn't at all like Baltar's worries about being a Cylon. He's got 6 in his head, he lived with the Cylons, he helped destroy humanity, he worked with the Cylons on New Caprica...

These guys didn't speculate or wonder - they knew, just like that. They had no reason to all of a sudden start wondering if they are Cylons.

[Anubys]

Depending on how its said, it can certainly be perceived that way.

"Starbuck is a slut" and "This show sucks" stated by themselves without any other explanation to me sound pretty inflammatory.

I'm one of those who say WHY they like/don't like something...but everyone has a right to simply post "I didn't like the show" without having to write a dissertation - to your satisfaction - about why...

besides, "Starbuck is a slut" is inflammatory only if she were real ;)

[TreborPugly]

Sorry, but here's the fact YOU'RE missing: This episode did not answer the question of whether or not the 4 people were Cylons - the article answered it. There is no disputing this, as you even admit it was ambiguous in the episode. It doesn't matter whether or not that ambiguity was intentional - the fact remains that the episode didn't settle the issue, the article did. The quote should have been in spoiler tags.


Even though I can understand the view that this information from the creator is a spoiler, given the fact that he flatly stated something without any warning about giving away something, I consider it something that the creator expected us to know from the episode. His willingness to definitely state something is more a clarification than a spoiler. (Like that time when there were garbled words on Lost, and ABC "fixed" the garbling on their web site)

If the writers don't manage to get a point across through their "artistic" methods, they might well wish to simply tell the viewer afterward what the real point was. Hiding from that information is then depriving yourself of the writers actual intended message.

Sure, sometimes actors or writers give away a spoiler from a future episode, but in this case, I don't think spoiler fits.

[latrobe7]

Yeah, and she's a drunk, too :D

(Starbuck, that is)

[Skittles]

I'm one of those who say WHY they like/don't like something...but everyone has a right to simply post "I didn't like the show" without having to write a dissertation - to your satisfaction - about why...

besides, "Starbuck is a slut" is inflammatory only if she were real ;)I'm sitting here nodding in agreement with Anubys. And I feel so dirty doing so.

Clearly this cannot be allowed to happen again. ;)

[drew2k]

I thought it did. It wouldn't have occurred to me that they would think they were Cylons just like that otherwise. Why would they have?

It wasn't at all like Baltar's worries about being a Cylon. These guys didn't speculate or wonder - they knew, just like that.All we have seen is four people who hear strange music that no one else does, and the four wind up together in a room. We haven't seen any skinjobs from the same line, like we did with Boomer in the mini-series, and we haven't heard any dialog other than these four confused characters speculating as to their nature.

Compare this to many episodes ago when Baltar thought HE was a Cylon. He was confused, he couldn't understand why he had a Six in his head and why he was helping the Cylons.

I consider this episode to be a similar situation where at the end of a mid-season cliffhanger, there is no doubt in my mind that we should NOT know whether or not these four are Cylons. Future episodes should settle that, not an external article.

Anyway, I'm done with this argument. The article quote is "out there", I've seen it, and there's no going back. I can only hope Mr. Moore is playing a big mind-frak on everyone and comes up with some DIFFERENT story for these four people than was mentioned in the article. :)

[Rob Helmerichs]

I thought it did. It wouldn't have occurred to me that they would think they were Cylons just like that otherwise. Why would they have?
More to the point, Ron Moore thought the episode settled the issue. In effect, in the interview he was correcting his error in not making it as clear as he had thought he made it in the show.

[philw1776]

More to the point, Ron Moore thought the episode settled the issue. In effect, in the interview he was correcting his error in not making it as clear as he had thought he made it in the show.

And that admission speaks VOLUMES about bad writing or poor editing. Whichever it is, the end result is unintended ambiguity about an issue central to the story. Pathetic.

P.S. I don't. And I don't want to know.

[Anubys]

I'm sitting here nodding in agreement with Anubys. And I feel so dirty doing so.

Clearly this cannot be allowed to happen again. ;)

I think you're an incredibly handsome and witty guy... :p

I totally agree with Drew...I treated the magazine interview as a spoiler and I was not happy about it...as the show ended, there was plenty of doubt in my mind (as stated in a previous post)...heck, I'm still holding out hope that this is mis-information by Ron Moore!

I see the point about him settling an issue that he thought he made clear...still, I would have preferred to wait until 2008 to find out...

[Skittles]

I think you're an incredibly handsome and witty guy... :p Well, now I know you're insane! ;)

I totally agree with Drew...I treated the magazine interview as a spoiler and I was not happy about it...as the show ended, there was plenty of doubt in my mind (as stated in a previous post)...heck, I'm still holding out hope that this is mis-information by Ron Moore!

I see the point about him settling an issue that he thought he made clear...still, I would have preferred to wait until 2008 to find out...The thing is, I'm seeing this from both sides of the argument.

I totally, totally understand Drew's point, because the article had details from outside the episode, and that's a no no by spoiler policies. He does have a valid claim. It's like when we go through with podcast talk... we always spoilerize it, since it's considered an extension of the episode and not part of the actual episode.

But I also understand that, realistically speaking, the article in question is just clarification on the episode, where the writing/acting in the episode doesn't actually explain the point the writers are trying to make. So that sort of pushes it into a grey area. I mean, yeah, the writers *could* have been going for a vague viewer interpretation... but that's kinda doubtful. Otherwise, RDM wouldn't have outright verified things.

So please, let's not fight over this. Everyone's right. And we're wasting precious time here when we could be talking about Slutbuck and how badly this show sucks. :)

[Bierboy]

...The quote should have been in spoiler tags....Agreed....but then, I'm a member of the spoiler police.

[robreams]

I know several posters before me have brought up continuity problems with Tigh being a Cylon. Let me take it a step further... haven't we seen either from Adama's or Tigh's flashbacks that Tigh has actually aged through the years?

[TAsunder]

You have GOT to be kidding if you think that there's anything remotely astronomically valid about BSG's universe.

It doesn't have to be valid, but that was seemingly a real shot of a milky way simulation. I thought it would be fun to see where they made the nebula look to be vs where earth actually is.

[zalusky]

I'm one of those who say WHY they like/don't like something...but everyone has a right to simply post "I didn't like the show" without having to write a dissertation - to your satisfaction - about why...

besides, "Starbuck is a slut" is inflammatory only if she were real ;)

Good one.

People have lots of rights and they can keep on posting that way. I am not the forum owner or the police. I was just trying to point out that they may not realize the impression they make on people when they do it.

Not everybody has the skill to be eloquent and articulate, heck many people probably don't understand what I am trying to say.

[Church AV Guy]

More to the point, Ron Moore thought the episode settled the issue. In effect, in the interview he was correcting his error in not making it as clear as he had thought he made it in the show.
And that admission speaks VOLUMES about bad writing or poor editing. Whichever it is, the end result is unintended ambiguity about an issue central to the story. Pathetic.
I totally agree with Drew...I treated the magazine interview as a spoiler and I was not happy about it...as the show ended, there was plenty of doubt in my mind (as stated in a previous post)...heck, I'm still holding out hope that this is mis-information by Ron Moore!

I see the point about him settling an issue that he thought he made clear...still, I would have preferred to wait until 2008 to find out...
I remember during the run of Babylon-5 that occasionally, someone would say something about an episode, like, "Wow! That speech from Kosh was great, and now I know that not only are the Vorlons the oldest civilization in the Galaxy, but that there is only one Vorlon still alive, and it is Kosh himself," to which JMS (the show's producer and by far, the main writer) would reply, "Well it never occurred to me that what I wrote could have been interpreted that way, but I see what you are saying. What Kosh said was not meant to imply he was the last Vorlon. There are many live Vorlons still around. You misunderstood what Kosh said, or he wasn't clear, but that not what he was suggesting, because it isn't true."

Would you call that a spoiler, or a clarification? I would call it a clarification, and what Ron Moore did was the same. In the same interview, he dissembled a lot on other questions, like Cally's baby and other possible Cylon/human hybrids, and was Starbuck real, or an hallucination like Six and Baltar, to Baltar and Six. This he didn't speak around, he just said it like we all should know it from watching the episode.

[mostman]

I know several posters before me have brought up continuity problems with Tigh being a Cylon. Let me take it a step further... haven't we seen either from Adama's or Tigh's flashbacks that Tigh has actually aged through the years?

Indeed.

[latrobe7]

I know several posters before me have brought up continuity problems with Tigh being a Cylon. Let me take it a step further... haven't we seen either from Adama's or Tigh's flashbacks that Tigh has actually aged through the years?He definitely had more hair in the flashbacks. It bothered me, too, but I think I've gone through the 4 of the 5 stages now -

Denial: "No way, it's a red-herring, the writers are messing with us"

Anger: "F***ing RDM, does he think he can just pull anything out of his ass and we'll accept it!!"

Bargaining: "I'll keep watching if they come up with a great explanation for this"

Depression: "Why bother, this show has jumped the shark. It's over. It will never be good again"

I'm coming up on Acceptance: "Well, that's the way it is; I'll just have to wait to see where they're going with this."
:p

[TAsunder]

All we have seen is four people who hear strange music that no one else does, and the four wind up together in a room. We haven't seen any skinjobs from the same line, like we did with Boomer in the mini-series, and we haven't heard any dialog other than these four confused characters speculating as to their nature.

In general I agree with your point, but I don't think it was anything like baltar. Baltar wondered if he was a cylon. The four KNEW they were cylons, and they had very minimal evidence that we have seen.

The reason I don't feel the way you do is simple... while I did wonder if they were cylons or not, I did not consider it a valid artistic decision if they weren't. Unlike sharon, baltar, etc. So the question boiled down to, "are they going to do something so completely idiotic that it will be unforgiveable, or are they cylons and I just don't fully understand how they know?". If it had ended slightly differently, with them asking whether they are cylons and agreeing to keep working until they figure it out, I'd agree with you. It may seem like a minor distinction, but it's not to me.

The current form would be extremely manipulative and hostile towards viewers if it turned out they weren't cylons. Having them be uncertain and simply offer it as a question to later answer "no" would be fine.

So it wasn't a "spoiler" so much as a "don't panic-er"

[TAsunder]

Did they ever state that cylons don't age...?