Battlestar Galactica "Crossroads" Part II Episode #319 3/25/2007 *spoilers*

[philw1776]

You're assuming that the writers are being consistent with previously 'revealed' rules about the cylons. Instead, they pull a "Deus Ex Machina" and blithely state that, no, THESE Cylons are 'special'. No need whatsoever to be consistent.

[Anubys]

we have no proof that cylons do not age...we assumed that they do not age because each model is exactly the same age...

the preacher model, when it was created, may have been young at some point...

[robreams]

They resurrect at the same apparent age at which they terminate. When you see multiple copies of the same series, they all appear to be the same age. There hasn't ever been anything presented that would suggest that they would age...

[Anubys]

They resurrect at the same apparent age at which they terminate. When you see multiple copies of the same series, they all appear to be the same age. There hasn't ever been anything presented that would suggest that they would age...

my counter to that is a joke I made a while ago: all the models have aged at least 2-3 years since we first saw them!

the only proof that they don't age is that each model is the same age...but that could be because they were all manufactured on the same day or because their aging is linked somehow (so a new manufactured model can only be the age of its current living model)...

we just don't know...

[philw1776]

Do these new spylons glow in the spine when having sex? You mean Ellen, Starslut or Callie never ever once watched their partner in a mirror?

I wonder if they have Sharon's fiber optic wrist interface option?

[Anubys]

Do these new spylons glow in the spine when having sex? You mean Ellen, Starslut or Callie never ever once watched their partner in a mirror?

I wonder if they have Sharon's fiber optic wrist interface option?

heck, there are plenty of positions where your partner's back is to you...another plot hole that was discussed many seasons ago!

[TAsunder]

I can't wait for the retcon episode where chief and assassin boomer were trying to get pregnant but couldn't because two cylons can't reproduce.

[3D]

the only proof that they don't age is that each model is the same age...but that could be because they were all manufactured on the same day or because their aging is linked somehow (so a new manufactured model can only be the age of its current living model)...

we just don't know...

I don't think that's the only proof. IIRC, earlier in the season, the Dean Stockwell Cylon (sorry, don't know the name or number) said something to the effect of it didn't matter if they followed the humans to earth or if they destroyed them and spent 5,000 years finding it on their own, because they were capable of taking the long road. I can't remember the exact words, but I took it to mean that the Cylons who were having that conversation would be around in 5,000 years so long as they weren't killed by an unnatural force and unable to resurrect.

[philw1776]

heck, there are plenty of positions where your partner's back is to you!

This is why I read these message boards. Learn something new every day!

[Halfsek]

People. You have it all wrong.

They're not Cylons.

Look. You have 13 'tribes' wandering the universe thousands of years ago.

They're JEWISH! I suppose that the writers could have made it much more obvious if the song was Hava Nagila. But c'mon, they just can't hand this stuff to us.

[rlc1]

I liked it too. I think most of the people that didn't like it have just gotten so in love with this show that they expect too much. Now, it's not a bad thing to love this show - I certainly do. But I've learned over the years not to expect too much from a TV show and to keep my expectations low. I think it was the shock of losing Farscape (it still stings) that made me this way. It just seems to me that this kind of thing happens with every show (and every movie series that goes on for a long time - how about Star Wars?). "Lost" is another good example of a show that somewhat floundered, and did so a lot earlier than some other shows. But if you take an honest look both at BG (and Lost) and compare them to other shows that are out there....it still blows a lot of other shows away. There just gets to be so much history to a show by the third of fourth season that it's impossible to please everyone...yes, this season hasn't been as good as last season. But is that really because the writing isn't as good....or that we've just gotten too spoiled and expect it to continually get better and better? There's got to be a plateau somewhere.

[JoeyJoJo]

I think many are having trouble with these 4 because they're assuming that they're "spylons."

What we know:

There are 12 human "models" of Cylon.

Seven models have been shown to us, and are similar in that there are many copies of each of these 7. They function as part of a Cylon society. They are "created" as adult models. They can download their conciousness to other bodies. They cannot reproduce with other Cylons.

We know nothing of the other 5 models, other than what 4 of them look like at this point. We don't know how they were made, when they were made, or why they now "know" that they're Cylons. We saw a representation of a song, "switching" them on, but can only speculate that the nebula had something to do with it.

I say sit back and see how it unfolds, it COULD be an interesting season.

[quango]

Of all the 4 'cylons' the one that ticks me off the most is Tigh.

Supposedly the timeline goes like this, right?

Year X : Humans create cylons
Year X + n : Cylons rebel (presumably the original toasters) and a war starts. Tigh fights in that war with Adama
Year Y : War is over
Year Y + 40 : No known contact with any cylons, but presumably during this time, they're developing skinjobs and 'evolving'.
Year Z: Second Cylon Attack
Year Z + 2-3: Tigh discovers he's a cylon.

Unless he was killed and replaced at some point, he's older than the skinjobs. If he can be killed and replaced, why bother with the assistant to the president. Why not replace Adama, Tigh, and the President....have them surrender yet again to the cylons and be done with it.

The key point here is "presumably during this time, they're developing skinjobs and 'evolving'." The Colonials and the skinjobs (at least the "first 7" models) believe this is the case, but there has never been evidence in the show indicating that the "Cylons" who show up in Year Z have anything to do with the "Cylons" from Year Y, except that Cylon Group Z shows up from the same direction of space that Group Y went off into and that the toasters and Raiders have the same red lights as the old-school Year Y Cylons.

Alternative theory: the Cylons the colonials fought go off to Mystery Cylon Planet. They somehow (accidentally?) reactivate 7 human-form androids there (or on a spaceship on the way - maybe they never even get to Mystery Cylon Planet) and there are clear indications that there are 5 other "missing" ones, who had gone off in the past. These androids have no historical memory to explain who or what they are (perhaps some fragmentary memory of there being other models), but collaborate with the Old School Cylons (perhaps to develop better toasters), figure out how to produce copies of themselves after procreation fails, and eventually come to believe they "evolved" from the OSCs and replace them. Tigh and the others could have departed independently in the past; maybe some benevolent force (the final missing Cylon?) activated them individually at various times and sent them to the colonies, explaining the age variances.

Another alternative theory is that most or all of the humans are by now somehow related to the skinjob Cylon species (hybrids of pure humans and the original 5 Lords of Kobol, who are part of the skinjob species), but the "Tigh four" are genetically different enough - perhaps close enough to the original prototypes (the LoK and the other 7), even if not being the original pure skinjobs - that their enhanced abilities are more developed than the others; under the right circumstances (perhaps in the proximity of an amplifier - whatever disabled the ships when they jumped in) they can communicate with each other telepathically, perhaps also an effect amplified by Kamala in Roslin and other skinjob/human hybrids. (Why Roslin telepathically associates with the skinjob Cylons rather than the Final 5 group is an open question - the introduction of Hera's DNA might explain that.)

As an aside, we have no evidence that skinjob bodies don't age. Indeed, if they are almost indistinguishable from humans (to the point that humans and skinjobs can procreate with each other), it would be difficult for them not to age yet still be indistinguishable.

[stalemate]

Do these new spylons glow in the spine when having sex? You mean Ellen, Starslut or Callie never ever once watched their partner in a mirror?

I wonder if they have Sharon's fiber optic wrist interface option?heck, there are plenty of positions where your partner's back is to you...another plot hole that was discussed many seasons ago!Are there really "plenty" where the man's back is facing the woman? Maybe I'm not as creative as I thought...

[Rob Helmerichs]

As an aside, we have no evidence that skinjob bodies don't age. Indeed, if they are almost indistinguishable from humans (to the point that humans and skinjobs can procreate with each other), it would be difficult for them not to age yet still be indistinguishable.
Well, that's not a good point. I mean logically it is, but in the context of the show they've already completely destroyed any notion that the Spylons are medically indistinguishable from humans. They've also stated flat out that the Spylons ARE medically indistinguishable from humans. So the question of being medically indistinguishable from humans or not is pure gibberish already, and can't be taken as evidence either way.

What we DO know from first-hand experience (that is, watching it on the show) is that members of each model always seems to be the exact same age when they come out of the tank. We have NOT seen evidence that they age once they're out of the tank; it would seem logical that they would, but then, well, as I said earlier.

[vikingguy]

I liked it too. I think most of the people that didn't like it have just gotten so in love with this show that they expect too much. Now, it's not a bad thing to love this show - I certainly do. But I've learned over the years not to expect too much from a TV show and to keep my expectations low. I think it was the shock of losing Farscape (it still stings) that made me this way. It just seems to me that this kind of thing happens with every show (and every movie series that goes on for a long time - how about Star Wars?). "Lost" is another good example of a show that somewhat floundered, and did so a lot earlier than some other shows. But if you take an honest look both at BG (and Lost) and compare them to other shows that are out there....it still blows a lot of other shows away. There just gets to be so much history to a show by the third of fourth season that it's impossible to please everyone...yes, this season hasn't been as good as last season. But is that really because the writing isn't as good....or that we've just gotten too spoiled and expect it to continually get better and better? There's got to be a plateau somewhere.

BSG has not hit a plateau it has declined rapidly. It started with the wild out of know where character turns in season 2.5. The crap like all of a sudden 1 episode lee is with some hooker I mean come on. There has been no build up of any of these events. Look at B5 every character turn was foreshadowed and was done over time almost methodical. The best examples are londo and G'Kar incredible character changes that made sense because they happened over 5 seasons not 1 episode like BSG. Also the premis of BSG has changed on the fly the show changed from a gritty drama about survival to a day time soap with cheesy love triangles and out of know where events just to shock the audience. Give me the BSG of season 1.0 and 2.0 and I would be a happy man. Give me more grit and less who is sleeping with who. Some of my favorite shows ever had some great season 3s like B5. Season 3 of B5 featured what I would classify as the greatest episode in the history of scifi in severed dreams.

The reason I think lost and BSG have strayed and pissed people off is they were not planned at all from the begining. When a show is not planned it makes it very hard to maintain continuity or make slow foreshadowed character changes and evolution.

[vikingguy]

Well, that's not a good point. I mean logically it is, but in the context of the show they've already completely destroyed any notion that the Spylons are medically indistinguishable from humans. They've also stated flat out that the Spylons ARE medically indistinguishable from humans. So the question of being medically indistinguishable from humans or not is pure gibberish already, and can't be taken as evidence either way.

What we DO know from first-hand experience (that is, watching it on the show) is that members of each model always seems to be the exact same age when they come out of the tank. We have NOT seen evidence that they age once they're out of the tank; it would seem logical that they would, but then, well, as I said earlier.

If they would age when they become active after being downloaded we would of saw older skinjobs on the basestar baltar was on. I highly doubt many skin jobs have died over the years outside a few who have died since the war started. A few deaths and brother cavil was feeling the effects of it with painfull downloading.

[TAsunder]

I didn't really hate this episode. Overall it was pretty decent, aside from the courtroom. But after it was over I couldn't help but think back on the season as a whole and think that very little has happened because of the plethora of filler episodes and relationship resets.

But I really got riled up after reading some of ron's comments in one of those articles. His general attitude about retcon-ing is just so off-putting. I would prefer it if they consider it something to avoid unless there is a good reason to do it. He seems to think nothing of it and has no qualms about major retcons. And hints at not having anything anywhere near as planned out as it seemed in certain patches of this show.

[Rob Helmerichs]

If they would age when they become active after being downloaded we would of saw older skinjobs on the basestar baltar was on. I highly doubt many skin jobs have died over the years outside a few who have died since the war started. A few deaths and brother cavil was feeling the effects of it with painful downloading.
Right, but that could also just be laziness (they didn't think about the issue) or cheapness (they don't want to do the make-up). It would be pretty easy to come up with an explanation for how they age but we don't see different ages.

Let's see, the Spylons have a life cycle of about five years, after which they deteriorate rapidly. During the deterioration process, they can ease into the "collective" and a new body without negative side effects. But if their body is killed, the transition is abrupt and causes cumulative psychic damage.

The problem is that with this show, given past experience, we can't tell if something seems to be a certain way because it's meant to be that way, because they just didn't think about it, or because it seems cool this week but next week the opposite will seem cool so that's the way it will be next week.

[TonyD79]

If they would age when they become active after being downloaded we would of saw older skinjobs on the basestar baltar was on.

Not that I think they age but this is not proof. It is only a bit of "evidence." We didn't see every Cylon model on Caprica, so why assume we would see "old" Cylons on the base if they exist?

Or maybe they do a Logan's Run on them when they age?

We didn't see enough Cylon's on the base to assume we had a true cross section of the population.

The better example is when they boxed up the one model....

[quango]

Well, that's not a good point. I mean logically it is, but in the context of the show they've already completely destroyed any notion that the Spylons are medically indistinguishable from humans. They've also stated flat out that the Spylons ARE medically indistinguishable from humans. So the question of being medically indistinguishable from humans or not is pure gibberish already, and can't be taken as evidence either way.

Note that I said almost indistinguishable - unless you know what you're looking for, you can't distinguish them. Only Baltar knows that Baltar's test really did work on a pure spylon, and it's not a traditional medical test; the process by which Athena (then C-Boomer) interfaced with computers was not explained (but apparently not medically detectable - and nobody knew about that capability until it happened, so again you wouldn't know what to look for); and Hera is an infant human-skinjob hybrid, so the fact she's medically-distinguishable from humans doesn't really tell us much about adult pure spylons (perhaps all spylon infants are/would be distinguishable from humans, and the tell-tale bits go away as they reach maturity, or maybe only hybrids are distinguishable from humans).

As for the aging issue... it is possible spylons don't age, but hybrids do. After all, Hera didn't stay a zygote. There's a good case to be made that Tigh, Tyrol, and Anders are all known to have aged: Tigh and Tyrol have served in the military for years, which almost certainly means they would have been observed to age, while Anders being a professional athlete would have presumably been recruited out of high school and college. If spylons don't age... then the Tigh Gang can't be pure spylon, which reinforces the hybrid theory.

It's also possible the spylons we observe really aren't that old - a 3-5 year age difference across the population wouldn't be noticeable for most of the models (no model is on the "adult/old age" appearance boundary). In other words, whatever happened while the Cylons were away, it only culminated in the activation of the skinjobs in the 2-3 years before the attacks (that leaves Boomer to be explained - perhaps records were forged and she infiltrated the military already an officer, rather than being replaced before going to the academy).

[PJO1966]

Also, we have evidence that these 4 Cylons have the ability to get fat. The chief is a prime example.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Note that I said almost indistinguishable - unless you know what you're looking for, you can't distinguish them.
Well, for starters you're looking for muscles, bones, and tendons that are stronger than steel, a nervous system that can generate fiber optic signals, a brain that can function as a super-computer, something that can send a massive data dump instantly across vast distances...

[Talon]

Liked the episode. :up:

[busyba]

something that can send a massive dump instantly across vast distances...
Hmmmm, after that chili I had last night, maybe I'm a Cylon.... :p

[dcheesi]

Well, for starters you're looking for muscles, bones, and tendons that are stronger than steel, a nervous system that can generate fiber optic signals, a brain that can function as a super-computer, something that can send a massive data dump instantly across vast distances...I'm telling you, it's nanites, man! They hide out when the body is scanned, then come back out to augment their bodies and neural pathways as needed. Either that, or magic fairy dust... hey, aren't those the same thing? ;)

[Big_Daddy]

If the humans in BSG would just tighten the confinement beam, i'm confident they could detect all Spylons. It always worked for any problem in ST:TNG.

[vman41]

"All Along the Watchtower" was the subliminal song the Cylons heard because "There must be some way out of here" is what the writers kept saying to themselves while trying to reconcile the total mess they've made of the storyline.

The best moment in the show was when Tigh chose to transcend his Cylon-ness (Cylonicity?).

[Anubys]

I admit, Hendrix was not someone I listened to (and I hate Dylan)...just didn't grow up in that era...I always wanted to try to listen to him (just to see what the fuss was about) but never got around to it (even bought 3 CDs and never played them)...

that being said, I wonder if there's a message to the song beyond "there must be some kind of way out of here"...to those children of the 60s, is there a deeper meaning to the song when Dylan wrote it? some cultural significance (the war, for example)?

here are the lyrics

________________
There must be some kind of way out of here
Said the joker to the thief
There's too much confusion
I can't get no relief
Businessman they drink my wine
Plow men dig my earth
None will level on the line
Nobody of it is worth
Hey hey

No reason to get excited
The thief he kindly spoke
There are many here among us
Who feel that life is but a joke but uh
But you and I we've been through that
And this is not our fate
So let us not talk falsely now
The hours getting late
Hey

Hey

All along the watchtower
Princes kept the view
While all the women came and went
Bare-foot servants to, but huh
Outside in the cold distance
A wild cat did growl
Two riders were approachin
And the wind began to howl
Hey
Oh
All along the watchtower
Hear you sing around the watch
Gotta beware gotta beware I will
Yeah
Ooh baby
All along the watchtower

[Skittles]

If the humans in BSG would just tighten the confinement beam, i'm confident they could detect all Spylons. It always worked for any problem in ST:TNG.Unless, of course, the nebula they're in is filled with tetryon particles. Then they're all frakked. :)

[TAsunder]

I think they age in a limited sense. Once they come out of the vat of goo they start aging, then when they die the new body is back to the original age. Hopefully that's not a smeek. Pretty sure all of the traditional cylons have died numerous times. Athena might be the oldest one at the moment. I mean aside from the fab four.

[rich]

I was speculating along different lines. I remembered the original series, where Count Iblis showed up and said that he knew the way to Earth. There was great rejoicing until people saw him for what he really was. He was also being pursued by beings in a Ship of Lights.

I was wondering if Starbuck was now taking on the Iblis role, the Final Five were taking on the Ship of Lights role, and the four who heard the music were being called upon to find the truth.

I thought I was on to something, but the RDM interview seems to shoot holes in it. Unless he's really just messing with us?

[TAsunder]

It's possible he is. Didn't he state that starbuck is off the show despite now saying the exact opposite? Or was that just what we inferred?

[Rob Helmerichs]

It's possible he is. Didn't he state that starbuck is off the show despite now saying the exact opposite? Or was that just what we inferred?
I believe he said words to the effect of "Well, she's not in the credits any more!"

Despite my borderline contempt for much of what Moore has done, I have to admire whole-heartedly the way he and Sackhoff played us on the Starbuck "death."

I reserve judgment on the death itself, however--since there's no way she could have survived the explosion, I hope there's an explanation beyond "she woke up in a Spylon tank"...

[philw1776]

Well IF "she woke up in a Spylon tank" she's been one busy lady. Busy enough to escape, go and find Earth and then return to guide Adama junior.

[Anubys]

I reserve judgment on the death itself, however--since there's no way she could have survived the explosion, I hope there's an explanation beyond "she woke up in a Spylon tank"...

but didn't this happen on TOS? this might be where the ship of lights comes in...

[busyba]

If the humans in BSG would just tighten the confinement beam, i'm confident they could detect all Spylons. It always worked for any problem in ST:TNG.
Only if they reverse the polarity.

[danterner]

Only if they reverse the polarity.

Random Treknobabble Generator (http://www.ics.mq.edu.au/~msjj/)

[markz]

<snip>

So please, let's not fight over this. Everyone's right. And we're wasting precious time here when we could be talking about Slutbuck and how badly this show sucks. :)

I totally agree with Drew on this one.

However, I promise to quit arguing about it as long as Ron Moore agrees that next time he accidentally doesn't explain something clearly, that he take the time to call me and explain it to me.

He can't just hope that I (and others like me) hang out on a forum with other people who might have read an interview and might let it slip without tagging it as a spoiler.

What about all those poor people that are BSG fans but don't hang out on these forums? They are going into next season like Drew and I thinking that these 4 people just THINK they may be Cylons. :)

[markz]

<snip> Singing Cylons <snip>

We could have a Battle of the Bands with some Singing Klingons! I'd love to see that done in a Baber Shop Quartet style!

[markz]

Hmmmm, after that chili I had last night, maybe I'm a Cylon.... :p

Thanks for that! I am glad I wasn't taking a drink when I read it! :)

[mitkraft]

I was going to post the first time you popped off in the thread about needing constructive complaints but someone else said what I wanted to. But this post just begs for a reply:

However my point applies to a lot of the threads in the TV talk forum. There are people who just come across as uneducated by simply retorting "This Sucks" with no redeeming value.

Imagine any other situation, you at work and your boss just says "Your work sucks" with no other feedback. Your kids tell all your friends "You suck as a parent".

See the big difference here is that when at work I AM here for my boss' (or the company at least) benefit and as a parent you ARE here for the kids benefit. I am not here for your benefit or edification. If you are looking for some particular enlightenment from the forum and someone gives it to you then great! However we aren't obliged to do so. I think you need to get down off your high horse and realize that people have a right be just disgusted with a show and even simply say so. In many cases, they don't need to elaborate because plenty of others have said the same thing, or they don't want to get in a pissing match with someone like yourself who wants to tell them they are wrong for feeling the way they do.


Its not the complaining thats an issue, its the lack of analytical reasoning and constructive solution that makes the point come across badly.

Looking at this thread you can clearly see the two types of posts.

When I see people post that way, I consciously lower my opinion of them and they may be great people but they come across as unintelligent and self centered just looking for attention vs trying to make a point.

And here you are saying more about yourself than anybody else. I think this statement from you has every bit as much negative effect on my opinion of you as you say someone complaining without footnotes and a bibliography does for you. This is an elitist viewpoint and should probably generate some self reflection (but probably won't) on how and why you are judging other people.

Oh, And maybe you are taking your forums just a wee bit too seriously.

[zalusky]

I was going to post the first time you popped off in the thread about needing constructive complaints but someone else said what I wanted to. But this post just begs for a reply:



See the big difference here is that when at work I AM here for my boss' (or the company at least) benefit and as a parent you ARE here for the kids benefit. I am not here for your benefit or edification. If you are looking for some particular enlightenment from the forum and someone gives it to you then great! However we aren't obliged to do so. I think you need to get down off your high horse and realize that people have a right be just disgusted with a show and even simply say so. In many cases, they don't need to elaborate because plenty of others have said the same thing, or they don't want to get in a pissing match with someone like yourself who wants to tell them they are wrong for feeling the way they do.



And here you are saying more about yourself than anybody else. I think this statement from you has every bit as much negative effect on my opinion of you as you say someone complaining without footnotes and a bibliography does for you. This is an elitist viewpoint and should probably generate some self reflection (but probably won't) on how and why you are judging other people.

Oh, And maybe you are taking your forums just a wee bit too seriously.

Sorry never mind. :):)

[cyke93]

I just watched the last 3 episodes of BSG and I just saw this one. I am very upset with the outcome of this season. Overall, everything this season was weak. This season focused waaayyy too much on political drama and tried too hard to mirror events that are occuring in the real world, they literally forced fed it to us instead of being subtle about it. There were very few highlights of the season and now the only time when something interesting happens, we have to wait til 2008 !?!!?!? It isn't even freaking April yet and they expect fans to sit around for 8 freaking months !!!!!

[aaronwt]

There is a movie coming out late Summer or early fall so production on the show is delayed for the movie.

[vikingguy]

The extra time till next season gives me a little hope the writers will come up with a better plan for season 4. I do wonder if we will get a split season this time since it won't start till january 2008 or later.

[dswallow]

The extra time till next season gives me a little hope the writers will come up with a better plan for season 4.
I wonder just what their excuse will be when they introduce flying motorcycles.

[smark]

You don't need an excuse for flying motorcycles.

They're bad asssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.

[Rob Helmerichs]

There is a movie coming out late Summer or early fall so production on the show is delayed for the movie.
Not true. The "movie" is technically just the first two episodes of next season.

They got clobbered in the fall (which was an experiment for Sci-Fi; usually they avoid network first-run season like the plague). It's too late to revert to their usual tactic (half-season in the summer; half-season in the winter).

[Jeeters]

There is a movie coming out late Summer or early fall so production on the show is delayed for the movie.Mary McDonnell said in an interview I read last week (in Entertainment Weekly, I think), that she'll be on set for production of next season starting in May.

[BigJim]

How come the cylon virus didn't kill them?

[PJO1966]

How come the cylon virus didn't kill them?


None of them were exposed to it.

[Anubys]

How come the cylon virus didn't kill them?

The acting XO, Helo, took it upon himself to defeat the humans' plan to expose them to the virus...the writer saw this as a normal act that didn't merit even a demotion, let alone a firing squad :rolleyes:

[philw1776]

The acting XO, Helo, took it upon himself to defeat the humans' plan to expose them to the virus...the writer saw this as a normal act that didn't merit even a demotion, let alone a firing squad :rolleyes:

Thanks for reminding me of yet another of the many incredibly unreal aspects of human behavior that the 'writers' have featured this season. Seemingly, they're a very creative bunch having developed all the clever enhancements to this 2nd BSG universe in the beginning of the series, but then they've let us down with sloppy character development and motivation plus random capricious, "Hey! Let's try THIS!" plot ideas that at the very least don't seem congruent with the fabric of their universe.

[brianp6621]

This Episode: Thumbs Up! I'm stunned to see so many didn't like it. There's no accounting for taste of course, but I really feel like the show is back on track. The "power of ten" final zoom out and then to Earth was amazing.


Yeah, when it was done in the opening of Contact in 1997 :D.

Sorry it was pretty cool but that's immediately what I thought of.

[gchance]

Yeah, when it was done in the opening of Contact in 1997 :D.

Sorry it was pretty cool but that's immediately what I thought of.

This one was better, though.

We didn't have to hear the Spice Girls.

Greg

[brianp6621]

Put me in the camp of..

I kinda liked the episode.
I wasn't sure that the 4 ARE in fact cyclons and I'm still not (even with the semi-spoiler) that I didn't read. Was it really made all that clear that he isn't just playing us again?
Not sure exactly what I think of Starbucks return. Depends on what they do with it.

And after this weeks Lost and BSG, the BSG writers REALLY make the Lost guys look like they know what they're doing.

[busyba]

Yeah, when it was done in the opening of Contact in 1997 :D.
thanks for reminding me of that movie... I have to go vomit now.

Talk about a colossal waste of time with absolutely zero likable characters.....

[brianp6621]

thanks for reminding me of that movie... I have to go vomit now.

Talk about a colossal waste of time with absolutely zero likable characters.....

Really? I rather enjoyed it. Oh well.

[hefe]

I liked it too.

[latrobe7]

Contact? I liked that, too; but I have to agree that the casting and performances weren't that good. I thought Jodi Foster was just OK, and Matthew McConaughey as a spirtual leader?! Talk about blowing my 'suspension of disbelief'. But I really enjoyed the 'puzzle' of the transmission and building the machine...

[philw1776]

Was it really made all that clear that he isn't just playing us again?

Yes, I believe so from my reading.

Not sure exactly what I think of Starbucks return. Depends on what they do with it.

And after this weeks Lost and BSG, the BSG writers REALLY make the Lost guys look like they know what they're doing.

This 3rd season, the BSG writers make ANYONE else really look good.

[TAsunder]

Tom Skeritt and william fichtner were good in contact too. And David Morse, I guess.

[aaronwt]

I really liked the movie Contact, but the book was even better.

[Topher5000]

I finally watched this last night. Frakkin' awesome! I can't believe Bob Dylan's a toaster!
Although I liked it, I think they're getting too much into the paranormal. I'd prefer BSG to stick to the science. I've never really been into the mystical mumbo-jumbo.

[drew2k]

I really liked the movie Contact, but the book was even better.Same here. I recall reading that book in study hall in high school, when I should have been, well, studying. :)

[monkeybutler]

I finally watched last night and I really am disappointed. Not only with the episode but with the entire series. Think about it. What are the chances of successfully remaking a beloved TV show, let alone remaking a show that is 30x better than the original? Its almost impossible, yet they did it. They created the right tone, the right enemies, the right actors and everything. And now 3 seasons later have they really taken advantage of their accomplishment or have they thrown it all away?

Personally, I feel that they screwed up enough that unless they do something brilliant then overall they may have destroyed their own brilliant creation. Yeah, thats a bit overboard but after watching last nights episode then going overboard isn't that bad an idea.


As for the episode, here's the things I've learned.

- The future of the judicial system is scary. Have you seen the size of some of the ships? How can owning your own tugboat qualify you to judge something as huge this? And is that really the best prosecutor the human civilization has to offer? Who the heck allows a witness ramble that long on a witness stand?

- Rock music shouldnt be on sci-fi shows. Butchered rock classics shouldnt exist anywhere. Remaking that song is what really should be on trial

- Forcing a character into a scene is obvious. Apollo went from pilot to commander to major to ground troop to attorney? C'mon! He isnt that important that he needs to be on screen all the time.

- Listening to the podcasts hurts the show. Its great that Moore is sharing his thoughts but some of the stuff that we've learned from there have really hurt the show. Characters existing merely because "girls think he's cute", major plot points being created because an actor wants more screen time, abandoned plot directions that never should have existed in the first place and the overall knowledge that they're making almost everything up as they go. I'm sure this happens on alot of shows but its so obvious here that it just makes the show look even less polished.

- Cheesy "zoom to the planet" effects are cool on google earth, but not on a TV show like this


Anyway, I'll tune in to season 4 but it definitely should end there because this show will do better as a movie. Just as long as they don't destroy even more characters than they already have.

[cyke93]

I finally watched last night and I really am disappointed. Not only with the episode but with the entire series. Think about it. What are the chances of successfully remaking a beloved TV show, let alone remaking a show that is 30x better than the original? Its almost impossible, yet they did it. They created the right tone, the right enemies, the right actors and everything. And now 3 seasons later have they really taken advantage of their accomplishment or have they thrown it all away?

They focused way too much on the political drama, ie the whole judicial system, the labor laws, the occupation of new caprica as it relates to the occupation of iraq. They've done this in the past before, but they were executed properly.

How annoyed is everyone of Lee? Everything about his character in the last 2 episodes was not necessesary. Both him and adama got on my nerves. luckily for them, the first 2 seasons of BSG were brilliant and they were a few bright spots in season 3, getting the show back on track for season 4 (with 8 months hiatus) should be no problem for any writer with some common sense.

[dianebrat]

I finally got around to watching, and put me in the camp of " I really just don't care anymore"

With amazing episodes like Exodus, I can't even ponder this is the same show, much less they left us with this as a season finale? What's next, Dr Zee?

Seasons 1 and 2 blew me away, and there were a few moments this year where I really felt they were losing the handle, but still pulled off a great episode.

I should have been standing there at the end of the episode going "2008? noooooooooooo" instead I was thinking "good my S3 will have more room on it for a year"

I think of things that really work, season finales that bring me to tears, take me on a ride where I can't wait until the next episode, Lost, early X-Files, Rescue Me, when that episode ends, I'm emotionally vested, not "oh gee.. they think they're cylons.. how endearing"

[Figaro]

This show sucks.

Starbuck is a slut.

If I had some spoilers to post untagged I would :p

Next year? Do they need that much time to come up with more crappy Smallville musical endings?

And finally,

Poop.

[hefe]

This show sucks.

Starbuck is a slut.

If I had some spoilers to post untagged I would :p

Next year? Do they need that much time to come up with more crappy Smallville musical endings?

And finally,

Poop.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/hefe88/smileys/poopbanana.gif

[dswallow]

Next year? Do they need that much time to come up with more crappy Smallville musical endings?
It'd be cool if they could do an episode for Battlestar Galactica much like "Once More With Feeling" was for Buffy.

[Figaro]

It'd be cool if they could do an episode for Battlestar Galactica much like "Once More With Feeling" was for Buffy.
Now come on. The world is not ready for that kind of gayety in space. ;)

[PJO1966]

Now come on. The world is not ready for that kind of gayety in space. ;)


Speak for yourself... A love ballad with Apollo and Helo would be just fine.

[David Platt]

It'd be cool if they could do an episode for Battlestar Galactica much like "Once More With Feeling" was for Buffy.

I've already got everybody's song titles all picked out:

Apollo: 'Poor Fat Apollo'
Roslyn: 'Just Call Me Madam Airlock'
Starbuck: 'I Went to Earth and All I Got Was This Stupid Plotline'
Adama: '(That's Why Gaius is a) Tramp'
Callie (to Chief): 'I've Got Cylon Fever'

[Jonathan_S]

But then some writers have successfully done retcons. Look at Tolkien re: the story of Bilbo & the ring. "You can believe Bilbo if you want, but THIS is how it really happened."That was a bit of an odd retcon, since only the first edition of "The Hobbit" contained the 'old' story in narrative. (Although IIRC all subsequent versions retained it as Bilbo's explanation to the Dwarves.)
And then it came back in "The Lord of the Rings", again as the explanation that Bilbo gave to the Dwarves now with the explanation that Bilbo lied to them and the real story was the one presented in the narrative of 2nd+ editions of the Hobbit.

I hardly even remembered that it was changed for the 2nd edition. But wikipedia reminded me


Back to the episode, I (like many here) didn't think the "Tigh 4" were right about being cylons, and didn't really like the episode. But I do wonder that was that we saw from Lee's Viper. It looked like a very large structure of some sort, not too dissimilar from my vague recollection of what the Ragnar Station (from the mini-series) looked like.

[IndyJones1023]

Well crap. I watched this episode Thursday night before I went away all weekend and now there's over 300 posts!

One thing that jumps out at me - I've seen people mention Doral as being Roslyn's aide. I don't think he ever was. Wasn't he just a reporter?

[drew2k]

Well crap. I watched this episode Thursday night before I went away all weekend and now there's over 300 posts!

One thing that jumps out at me - I've seen people mention Doral as being Roslyn's aide. I don't think he ever was. Wasn't he just a reporter?I answered as follows in another BSG thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5023277&&#post5023277):

I think Doral wasn't assigned to Laura, but instead was assigned to the Galactica "Decommissioning Committee", or whatever it was called, that was turning the Galactica into a museum. Who knows - maybe back when the Cylons had a plan, they tried to get one Cylon skin-job on each Battlestar to make it easier to take the Battlestars down when the attack finally began.

[Anubys]

I answered as follows in another BSG thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5023277&&#post5023277):

I think Doral wasn't assigned to Laura, but instead was assigned to the Galactica "Decommissioning Committee", or whatever it was called, that was turning the Galactica into a museum. Who knows - maybe back when the Cylons had a plan, they tried to get one Cylon skin-job on each Battlestar to make it easier to take the Battlestars down when the attack finally began.

so you answered it wrong twice? :p

he was one of the reporters assigned to cover Roslyn's speech at the ceremony to de-commission Galactica...so in a sense, your answer is correct, but not completely!

[kaszeta]

so you answered it wrong twice? :p

he was one of the reporters assigned to cover Roslyn's speech at the ceremony to de-commission Galactica...so in a sense, your answer is correct, but not completely!

Don't any of you have the mini-series handy? Doral was a civilian public relations guy assigned to Galactica, not a reporter. He was suspected to be the person that left the odd Cylon transmitter in the CIC.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Don't any of you have the mini-series handy? Doral was a civilian public relations guy assigned to Galactica, not a reporter. He was suspected to be the person that left the odd Cylon transmitter in the CIC.
More to the point, he was a random guy framed by Baltar, who turned out by astonishing coincidence to be a Cylon after all.

[wingerzzz]

I remember thinking after seeing the mini series and before the series started that I hope the show did not become a constant is that person a cylon or not. It took to season three for my fears to be proven. This show went from a great drama and great layered characters to soap opera lets surprise for surprise sake. I like to call the sixth sense disease, instead of being true to the characters and just making good story telling the goal is for surprise, integrity who really cares.

That being written I enjoyed this episode for the most part and did like the ending very much. The trial was a joke and painful to watch for the most part but Lee’s speech could well have come from all of us fans as a mission statement for the show. Hey, it is about a group of people trying through impossible situations to just survive, junk happens deal with it. Let’s stop with unions, religious tolerance as main plot lines and get back to basics. Please writers, we get it, Lee and his Dad have a complicated relationship, but Lee only knows military life, the human race is trying to survive and he must have some loyalty to his fellow military people, stop making Lee look like he is eighteen years old and changing his mind every few episodes on what he wants to do when he grows up!

I will hold up hope that the four are not cylons for it pains me if it is true. I am not one to watch a show I like and be overwhelmed by plot faults, but to me the chief to be a cylon means anyone can have a half human half cylon baby. Tigh a cylon, get real! If the cylons had the technology to create a cylon and have him serve for all these years that they would not have done something much much earlier. It just feels like what has comes before is not suppose to matter to the viewers, discard that and move on so the writers can be more creative. Sorry, that is not me, it is why I stopped watching Alias and feel Lost is doomed for this type of thing.

I liked the final scene but it had limited drama because it was not set up at all. It was like the producers found some extra money and ran into the writer’s room all giddy and permitted them to write a special effects scene. Unfortunately, they had such a strong line of soap opera stuff that there was no build up to the scene. In fact I was waiting when it was announced the cylons were there for someone to go “who are they” and another to go “no need to panic, they just like to talk”.

Glad to see Strabuck back! Missed her self destructive/badass self and her friendship with Lee and did not miss her self destructive/pathetic self and her love thing with Lee. Her character has probably changed but hopefully it will be better then the season three one.

I will be back for four but my expectations will be on the low side.

[drew2k]

so you answered it wrong twice? :p

he was one of the reporters assigned to cover Roslyn's speech at the ceremony to de-commission Galactica...so in a sense, your answer is correct, but not completely!
Don't any of you have the mini-series handy? Doral was a civilian public relations guy assigned to Galactica, not a reporter. He was suspected to be the person that left the odd Cylon transmitter in the CIC.I guess I wasn't so wrong after all! :p

[TAsunder]

It doesn't take a year to make a musical ending. It's taking a year because they are doing a full-on musical episode like buffy did, only they are having trouble casting a judge in the musical courtroom scenes.

[ccooperev]

I'm with zalusky... personally, I think these are cylons DESCENDENTS OF the original cylons, or original 5 humanoid cylons. They weren't created, they were born, just like Hera. That would explain Tigh being in the military for 40 years. This would make them fundamentally different. Heck, they could be 2nd & 3rd generation (or in Tigh's case, 1st or 2nd).

As far as the rearrangement of All Along the Watchtower, they pretty much had to do it this way. It created a slow leadup, we had no idea what it was until Tigh said, "There must be some kinda way outta here." What Tyrol was humming certainly wasn't recognizable to me, I didn't even recognize it when they were all humming it together. I didn't mind it at all, I don't see it as another Earth thing they have, I see it more as an artistic thing. By us recognizing it, they're asking us to think of the lyrics and how they might apply to what's going on. With a recognizable song, they can instantly put a feeling into the show without any exposition.

If I recall correctly, the original Cylons were mechanized units similar to the shiny silver ones we see. Remember the Fleet was completely surprised that Cylons were now humanoid. They freaked out about it because they now knew that Cylons were sleepers inside the fleet.

[ccooperev]

The key point here is "presumably during this time, they're developing skinjobs and 'evolving'." The Colonials and the skinjobs (at least the "first 7" models) believe this is the case, but there has never been evidence in the show indicating that the "Cylons" who show up in Year Z have anything to do with the "Cylons" from Year Y, except that Cylon Group Z shows up from the same direction of space that Group Y went off into and that the toasters and Raiders have the same red lights as the old-school Year Y Cylons.

Alternative theory: the Cylons the colonials fought go off to Mystery Cylon Planet. They somehow (accidentally?) reactivate 7 human-form androids there (or on a spaceship on the way - maybe they never even get to Mystery Cylon Planet) and there are clear indications that there are 5 other "missing" ones, who had gone off in the past. These androids have no historical memory to explain who or what they are (perhaps some fragmentary memory of there being other models), but collaborate with the Old School Cylons (perhaps to develop better toasters), figure out how to produce copies of themselves after procreation fails, and eventually come to believe they "evolved" from the OSCs and replace them. Tigh and the others could have departed independently in the past; maybe some benevolent force (the final missing Cylon?) activated them individually at various times and sent them to the colonies, explaining the age variances.

Another alternative theory is that most or all of the humans are by now somehow related to the skinjob Cylon species (hybrids of pure humans and the original 5 Lords of Kobol, who are part of the skinjob species), but the "Tigh four" are genetically different enough - perhaps close enough to the original prototypes (the LoK and the other 7), even if not being the original pure skinjobs - that their enhanced abilities are more developed than the others; under the right circumstances (perhaps in the proximity of an amplifier - whatever disabled the ships when they jumped in) they can communicate with each other telepathically, perhaps also an effect amplified by Kamala in Roslin and other skinjob/human hybrids. (Why Roslin telepathically associates with the skinjob Cylons rather than the Final 5 group is an open question - the introduction of Hera's DNA might explain that.)

As an aside, we have no evidence that skinjob bodies don't age. Indeed, if they are almost indistinguishable from humans (to the point that humans and skinjobs can procreate with each other), it would be difficult for them not to age yet still be indistinguishable.


Something to consider is that if "Skinjobs" are manufactured, then they could have memories and histories implanted ala replicants in a Phillip K. Dick novel. "Why do Robots Dream of Electric Sheep" which was the basis for Bladerunner.

[TAsunder]

Thanks for reminding me of that crap book. I can't believe there are still people who think the book was better than the film. And I say that as a fan of PKD.

And obviously they do have implanted memories since otherwise they'd suspect something a lot sooner when they have no recollection of childhood or teenaged years.

[vikingguy]

The only solution to the tigh being a skinjob I could come up with is if the final 5 were developed by the colonies. The final 5 being some new prototype servents that escaped when the war broke out and people lost track of them. Far fetched sure but I can think of nothing better.

[Anubys]

And obviously they do have implanted memories since otherwise they'd suspect something a lot sooner when they have no recollection of childhood or teenaged years.

not necessarily...a concussion when I was about 13 or 14 (soccer game) has made me lose almost all my memory up to that point...there are many plausible ways of losing childhood memories...

[Rob Helmerichs]

not necessarily...a concussion when I was about 13 or 14 (soccer game) has made me lose almost all my memory up to that point...there are many plausible ways of losing childhood memories...
Hey, come to think of it, you've never spent a lot of time at the Ragnar Anchorage, have you..?

[Anubys]

Hey, come to think of it, you've never spent a lot of time at the Ragnar Anchorage, have you..?

I'm a little nervous...there is one cylon left to be revealed and he/she may be on Earth already...

did you hear that? :confused:

[TAsunder]

not necessarily...a concussion when I was about 13 or 14 (soccer game) has made me lose almost all my memory up to that point...there are many plausible ways of losing childhood memories...

Yeah but you didn't just wake up in a vat one day at the age of 25 and then have no idea who your parents were or have any bit of evidence you existed before waking up in the vat. At least I hope not.

[Big_Daddy]

Yeah but you didn't just wake up in a vat one day at the age of 25 and then have no idea who your parents were or have any bit of evidence you existed before waking up in the vat. At least I hope not.

I could see this happening after a night of hard drinking.

[doom1701]

I liked the final scene but it had limited drama because it was not set up at all. It was like the producers found some extra money and ran into the writer’s room all giddy and permitted them to write a special effects scene. Unfortunately, they had such a strong line of soap opera stuff that there was no build up to the scene. In fact I was waiting when it was announced the cylons were there for someone to go “who are they” and another to go “no need to panic, they just like to talk”.

That reminds me of something that really fell flat with the past few episodes. They were heading towards the next big signpost for earth--perhaps the last one. They tried to introduce some excitement, with Adama continuing to ask "How many more jumps?"--but the mock trial really weighed down the episodes too much to notice. They finally get there after weeks/months of travel, and the end really felt more like "Hey, look at the cylons--Oh, wait, there's Starbuck!".

[monkeybutler]

I just listened to half of the latest podcast and just turned it off in disgust. Its hard enough as a fan to watch such a brilliant show fall apart so badly, but to hear them try to justify things like "why put rock music?" or "why tigh?" with no real answers is just too difficult. Its simply amazing to see how much BS is put into the creation of such a good show.

With everything thats gone wrong with the series then the only way they can possibly bring the show back to greatness is the introduction of hoverboards for senior staff.

[philw1776]

I just listened to half of the latest podcast and just turned it off in disgust. Its hard enough as a fan to watch such a brilliant show fall apart so badly, but to hear them try to justify things like "why put rock music?" or "why tigh?" with no real answers is just too difficult. Its simply amazing to see how much BS is put into the creation of such a good show.

With everything thats gone wrong with the series then the only way they can possibly bring the show back to greatness is the introduction of hoverboards for senior staff.

Damn! I'd avoided listening to the podcasts lest my worst fears be confirmed.
On the bright side I am not counting the weeks until the new season starts anymore.

[scottykempf]

---R: Where do the plans stand for a direct-to-DVD movie that flashes back to tell more of the story of the Pegasus and Admiral Cain (Michelle Forbes)?

RM: It's really just a couple of extra episodes for the fourth season that will air earlier than the rest of the season, sometime in the fall. They'll come out on DVD the next day.

[scottykempf]

I wonder just what their excuse will be when they introduce flying motorcycles.

R: Will we ever see Galactica reach Earth? I'm nervous because of what happened on the original series when they reached Earth and the show became "Galactica 1980."

RM: We're dusting off the flying motorcycles, man. We have some great ideas for those babies.

[drew2k]

---R: Where do the plans stand for a direct-to-DVD movie that flashes back to tell more of the story of [snip]?

RM: [answer snipped]R: Will we ever see Galactica reach Earth? [snip]

RM: [answer snipped]You're obviously pasting quotes from some Q&A article or web site, but it's customary to cite the source and provide a link. Better yet, if you're posting information about upcoming episodes/seasons, and since these quotes don't pertain to this episode of BSG, you should really start a new thread about the quotes. (Be sure to put "spoilers" in the title.)

[scottykempf]

Confirmed they are cylons. Boo :(

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07085/770732-352.stm

From the article.

[gchance]

You're obviously pasting quotes from some Q&A article or web site, but it's customary to cite the source and provide a link. Better yet, if you're posting information about upcoming episodes/seasons, and since these quotes don't pertain to this episode of BSG, you should really start a new thread about the quotes. (Be sure to put "spoilers" in the title.)

I don't have a link to the original article but it's been quoted & pasted here before. After mentioning the motorcycles sarcastically, Moore basically says that when they get to Earth the series is over, so it'll be a while.

Greg

[Warren]

I just watched the last three episodes of this season. (after missing the 5 before them thats when I got my xbox360. made me miss alot of tv) I liked the end this show. I can't till next year.

[Hunter Green]

I liked this episode until Tigh mumbled "...said the Joker to the Thief..." I said "WTF? That's from All Along The Watchtower."I am both proud and embarassed of the fact that when this first came up, when Tigh said (completely in context, while trying to get Adama to look into the sabotage) "There's too much confusion", I thought, "what song is that from?" I never actually thought they were quoting the song, just that they happened to use the same four words. A bit later when he said "There must be some kind of way out of here," I said, "hold up, it is from the song!" I thought the writers were just doing a tip of the hat. When the same lines came up later during the "switch flip" scene, and went on to include the next two lines, I was laughing out loud. Nice job setting the song up with two out-of-sequence in-context quotes earlier in the episode... but I still want to know if it being an "Earth" song is intended to be meaningful.

By the way, sorry for the thread necro. I only just watched it on Universal HD.

[Hunter Green]

Well, for starters you're looking for muscles, bones, and tendons that are stronger than steel, a nervous system that can generate fiber optic signals, a brain that can function as a super-computer, something that can send a massive data dump instantly across vast distances...I always wondered why the blade runners didn't just dunk part of your fingertip into boiling water and be done with it, myself. (Maybe even a bit they cut off under anasthetic first, if you're concerned about it being done humanely.)

[Hunter Green]

Was I the only one that reacted to the people compelled by the song to keep quoting Close Encounters? "This is important. This means something!"