Rome - 3/25/07 - "De Patre Vostro (About Your Father)" *SPOILERS*

[RegBarc]

The series finale finally came and went. How sad considering it was only 2 seasons young and could have gone on forever.

Great episode overall. But if I'm not mistaken, Caesarion was indeed murdered around the time Anthony and Cleopatra committed suicide. So him being alive by the end of the episode was a tad confusing.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Great episode overall. But if I'm not mistaken, Caesarion was indeed murdered around the time Anthony and Cleopatra committed suicide. So him being alive by the end of the episode was a tad confusing.
But the official story at the end of the episode is that he was murdered. So--it's historically accurate! :D

I assume Pullo will have him adequately housebroken in time to keep him alive...

[gossamer88]

Damn! I was hoping for a "Vorenus e Pullo" spin-off!

[Odds Bodkins]

A classic series beheaded before its time.

[cheesesteak]

Bravo!

I was surprised that Cleopatra didn't get some poor, doomed servant boy to masquerade as Caesarean and be murdered. It's not like the boy's family could say no.

I'm glad Vorenus got his daughter's forgiveness before he kicked the bucket.

[Shaunnick]

I'm so sad to see this is over. I waited until after the credits to see what would replace the slot normally reserved for previews. It was a quick promo for the Sopranos. Another show I am going to miss very very soon.

[mqpickles]

Add this to the list of best series finales, and "About your father, . . ." has to be one the best closing lines in the history of television.

[TiVo'Brien]

Great episode, great show. I'll miss it.

Anyone wanna guess what was going through Atia's mind during the crowning ceremony? I'm guessing maybe she was disillusioned by everything she had held so dear up to that point.

Edit: Or maybe she was thinking it should have been her and Antony up there being crowned rather than Octavian and his wife.

[astrohip]

If school had been like this, I might have paid more attention in class. A history lesson, cleverly disguised as an HBO series. Whooda thunk?

What a great series. The end did not let us down. This series actually got better as it went on.

So many final looks & thoughts. Octavia & Marcus Agrippa. Atia as Antony went by (cheesesteak--you need a new girlfriend now!). Vorenus and his kids. I do have my doubts about that kid reforming though. You can take the kid out of the palace, but you can't take the palace out of the kid. And has there ever been a better example of "be careful what you wish for" than Atia and her son. Her dream to be the first mother marred by the fact she spawned a monster. His soul is rotten.

A classic close from Pullo, "About your father..."

[drew2k]

Agrippa: What did she say?
Ocatavian: She said I have no soul.
Agrippa: [Casually] Oh.

The above is paraphrased - I don't remember Cleo's last words verbatim, but I was surprised at this exchange. I never expected Octavian to relay Cleopatra's last words to Agrippa. I suppose this shows Octavian is well aware of his own shortcomings or what he might consider strengths and he was not embarrassed or ashamed for Agrippa to know.

Overall, I am satisfied. I don't even feel cheated, because I'd much rather watch a series end on a high versus watching one drift aimlessly from one half-hatched plot to another.

[Alvis]

Any of you noticed Octavian's smile while mentioning the "reward"? I think he knew all about the child. Probably had someone looked into it after Pullo sent that vague message to Vorenus.

[jschuur]

Agrippa: What did she say?
Ocatavian: She said I have no soul.
Agrippa: [Casually] Oh.

The above is paraphrased - I don't remember Cleo's last words verbatim, but I was surprised at this exchange.
I believe it was 'wanton soul'.

What I like best about this series is how some events are just glossed over or hinted at in passing, as if the show creators are trying to encourage you to look them up afterwards.

There's an idea for the DVD special features: pop-up graphics with trivia bits.

[Rob Helmerichs]

I believe it was 'wanton soul'.
I heard "rotten soul"...

[getbak]

I heard "rotten soul"...
Me too.

[appleye1]

I heard "rotten soul"...+1

[Anubys]

one dissenting voice here...I thought the entire season was just about perfect except for this ep...kind of slow to me...kept me wondering why it needed to be a little longer than an hour...

the battle with the Romans was near a river, I thought that they would stick to the real script and caesarian would be drowned somehow...he will rule Rome some day, it seems...as the leader of organized crime!

[angbear1985]

GREAT show ... so sad to see it end, too.

[TAsunder]

It was ok. I thought the fight scene where vorenus got wounded was really contrived given the way they have been portrayed.

[jeffo13]

"Am I a clown to you?"

Nice shoutout to Goodfellas

Jeff

[Legion]

It was ok. I thought the fight scene where vorenus got wounded was really contrived given the way they have been portrayed.

True. Stabbed in the back is never the way to go out.

But they were fighting Roman soldiers this time. Not the barbarians from the North or usual rable from streets.

[pjenkins]

so sad to see this series end, one of the best on TV, IMO...

[Anubys]

True. Stabbed in the back is never the way to go out.

But they were fighting Roman soldiers this time. Not the barbarians from the North or usual rable from streets.

well, that part was a little weak...it's a mortal wound, but he's able to not only live for a month, but take an arduous sea-crossing journey to boot :rolleyes:

[bdlucas]

one dissenting voice here...I thought the entire season was just about perfect except for this ep...kind of slow to me...kept me wondering why it needed to be a little longer than an hour...
I agree, this didn't seem like the strongest episode of the season to me. Antony and Cleopatra's blubbering got a bit old. Still better than practially anything else on, and a fine ending.

[cheesesteak]

I could name a couple of shows that I wish were planned from the beginning to only last two years. Two many shows last one or two seasons too long.

[mqpickles]

My husband and I were talking last night about Timon and how they seemed to be going somewhere with his story and then just cut it off a couple episodes ago. Does anyone have any information about why that story developed the way it did?

I speculated that perhaps the writers planned to go further with that story, but cut it off when word came down that HBO was not going to renew. (But I'm not clear on the timing of all that, so I could be way off.)

[angbear1985]

Yeah ... my husband and I were wondering about Timon, too.

[Anubys]

Yeah ... my husband and I were wondering about Timon, too.

maybe that was all there was...how Jews didn't fit in Rome and how they longed to go back home...why can't it be that simple?

[tsings31]

"Am I a clown to you?"

Nice shoutout to Goodfellas

I thought the same thing.

Good episode and I will definitely miss the series.

[Rob Helmerichs]

maybe that was all there was...how Jews didn't fit in Rome and how they longed to go back home...why can't it be that simple?
I have a hunch a third season would have been about the turmoil in the Holy Land, and they introduced that storyline just in case. Then, when they found that it was only going to be two seasons, they just let it end when the Roman part of the plotline ended.

[bdlucas]

Did anyone (Anubys?) recognize the language they were speaking when the Romans at the checkpoint tricked the prince? Was it an authentic recreation of the Egyptian language of the period?

[Fleegle]

I could name a couple of shows that I wish were planned from the beginning to only last two years. Two many shows last one or two seasons too long.

It wasn't, actually. They probably had 3 or 4 years in them, but HBO told them that this would be their last season simply because of how expensive it was. They glossed over a LOT of history to end it in one year.

[Anubys]

Did anyone (Anubys?) recognize the language they were speaking when the Romans at the checkpoint tricked the prince? Was it an authentic recreation of the Egyptian language of the period?

Ancient Egyptian as a language died many thousand years ago...there are some words that still live on (tata means walk, for example) that egyptians still use to this day (when talking to a child who is learning to walk)...

an uncle of mine was the director of Antiquities in Mansoura (a big city in the south)...he'd done quite a bit of research on the subject and came up empty except that many words are still used by the Copts - Egyptian Christians - in ancient chants (of course, that was 30 years ago...so take it with a grain of salt)...

long story short, I doubt anyone (except Dr. Daniel Jackson) can speak it or recognize it ;)

[mqpickles]

I have a hunch a third season would have been about the turmoil in the Holy Land, and they introduced that storyline just in case. Then, when they found that it was only going to be two seasons, they just let it end when the Roman part of the plotline ended.Well, since your hunch and my speculation are similar, I think we're onto something.

I think it's possible they planned to develop this story more even in season 2, but brought that storyline to an abrupt close when they found out they had to wrap up the whole thing in the second season. They needed to streamline the plot and focus on the central characters.

Anubys, the only reason I don't think it's as simple as showing the Jews didn't fit into Roman society is that at the beginning of season 2, this subplot really seemed to be building to something bigger (I have no idea what).

[Anubys]

well...at what point did they know that season 2 was the end of the show?

I thought it was before the season started, which would make the Jew story line theory (being more than it was) false...

he was just a murderer who wanted desperately to be more than was...hence his fascination with Atia and being able to bang her...as she refused him and he started having doubts, his brother's arrival hastened his "conversion"...the non-murder of Harrod made it even more so...with his brother dead, he went back home...seems enough of a story to me...

[DLiquid]

Great finale. I will miss this show.

I loved it how Caesarion used the pseudonym Aeneas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas). Aeneas was the mythological hero who escaped the Trojan War to become the ancestor to the Romans. Julius Caesar (and Octavian) claimed to be descendants of Aeneas.

[Rob Helmerichs]

well...at what point did they know that season 2 was the end of the show?

I thought it was before the season started, which would make the Jew story line theory (being more than it was) false...
It was before the season started airing, but they had finished filming long before it started airing.

They would have been well into filming, if not finished, by the time the announcement was made. Given the ending, I suspect they still had at least the last episode to film.

[Anubys]

It was before the season started airing, but they had finished filming long before it started airing.

They would have been well into filming, if not finished, by the time the announcement was made. Given the ending, I suspect they still had at least the last episode to film.

ok...given this new info, I'm willing to entertain the possibility that you are correct :p

can you share the origin of your sig?

[bdlucas]

Ancient Egyptian as a language died many thousand years ago...there are some words that still live on (tata means walk, for example) that egyptians still use to this day (when talking to a child who is learning to walk)...

an uncle of mine was the director of Antiquities in Mansoura (a big city in the south)...he'd done quite a bit of research on the subject and came up empty except that many words are still used by the Copts - Egyptian Christians - in ancient chants (of course, that was 30 years ago...so take it with a grain of salt)...

long story short, I doubt anyone (except Dr. Daniel Jackson) can speak it or recognize it ;)
Right, Ancient Egyptian isn't the relevant language here, but rather Demotic, which is the direct descendant of Ancient Egyption that was spoken during the Roman era. It's by the way the middle column of the Rosetta Stone.

(Demotic in turn later evolved into the Coptic language, which was spoken by some in daily use up through the 17th century, and has been revived in the 19th and 20th centuries for church use as you say, as I understand it.)

I wouldn't be at all surprised if language scholars have reconstructed a pretty good idea of how Demotic sounded, e.g. through written records of the time and through comparison with related languages like Ancient Egyptian and Coptic.

Some related links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demotic_%28Egyptian%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_Stone

[Rob Helmerichs]

can you share the origin of your sig?
I had to check to see what it is these days!

It's from Bones. Narrowly-focused lab-rat (no pun intended) Hodgins and his much more socialized girlfriend Angela.

[angbear1985]

Same here... thought they knew, before filming, that Season 2 would be the last one.

[cherry ghost]

Same here... thought they knew, before filming, that Season 2 would be the last one.

Sorry, I deleted my post because I couldn't find the info to back it up. The best I could come up with was that the cancellation announcement was in July and filming went into October.

http://www.zap2it.com/tv/news/zap-romeendingafterseason2,0,5831913.story

[drew2k]

As to Timon, I thought his storyline was linked to several other storylines:

a) Timon's brother reminded him he more than a "butcher/henchman" employed by Atia
b) Atia had crossed a line with the torture of Servilia
c) Timon was Jewish, which led to a scene in the temple where the arrival of the future King Herrod was noted
d) Herrod bribed Antony with gold, leading to the first split between Antony and Octavian
e) The gold was stolen...
f) ... which led to Pullo fighting all the other gangs and winning

With that said, I agree that there was likely more to the Timon story than was permitted to be shwon.

[Kylep]

There's an idea for the DVD special features: pop-up graphics with trivia bits.

Not sure if this zoomed me, but they did exactly that on season 1. They did it ala pop up video from VH1. I watched 5 episodes before I found the feature, i need to go back and watch again with it on all of them. It was pretty awesome, and several times this season i found myself thinking "I hope they explain that in the DVD"

A lot of it covers the every day stuff you see in the background, and what it was for.

[JohnB1000]

Same here... thought they knew, before filming, that Season 2 would be the last one.

I can't find the proof either but I agree with you regarding my memory. During the early part of season 1 they announced season 2, then not long after they announced season 2 would be the last one, before filming started I believe.

[Rob Helmerichs]

If you read the article linked above, you'll see that filming was already underway on Season 2 when they announced it would be the last season.

Presumably, by then most if not all of the season had been written; it had certainly all been plotted, given how tightly constructed the show is.

[JohnB1000]

Don't want to get in an argument, but unless it had already been filmed completely, why leave scenes that go nowhere in the show ?. I suspect the Timon story ended as always planned, it made sense to me until people questioned it here. It brought the interesting appearance of Herod, a side story, and a "moral" conclusion.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Well, a lot of the early episodes featured the Jewish subplot very prominently. If they'd cut them out entirely, there would have been huge gaps.

And Herod's story was only starting to get interesting when they ended it, historically speaking. I doubt they would have even gotten started with it if they hadn't at least anticipated the possibility of telling the whole story. I'm guessing that when the word came down, they decided to just truncate the Jewish subplot as gracefully as they could.

(I also think Vorenus's death is evidence that the whole season was written before the cancellation/non-renewal--with a show of this quality, I'm sure they would have foreshadowed it much better than they did--which is to say, even just a little bit. In the grand scheme of the season, his death was pretty meaningless, and as Anubys the Mis-speller suggested, even a little silly.)

[heySkippy]

Someone elsewhere suggested that Vorenus represented the Republic and Pullo represented the Empire (figuratively of course) and so the death of Vorenus was symbolic of the changes Rome itself was going through.

[omelet1978]

One question...what was the last thing that Atia said to Octavian's wife after "far better women have"??

[getbak]

One question...what was the last thing that Atia said to Octavian's wife after "far better women have"??
It's hard to make out but I think she said "go and look for them now" (in reference to the women who have sworn to destroy Atia in the past).

[thedudeabides]

I agree with everyone who says the Vorenus death was a little weak. I figured one of either Pullo or Vorenus would die, but not that way. Oh well.

Atia's statements at the end more than made up for it.

Maybe they could do a spinoff with Timon - where he starts the revolution that leads to the detruction of the Second Temple. Or something.

Long live Rome!

[pendragn]

The final line was perfect, just perfect.

I already miss this show. :(

tk

[pmyers]

The only thing that I didn't care for was Vorenus' death. It just felt totally undramatic.

Question: Was Cleopatra keeping Mark Antony drugged or was it voluntarily?

[angbear1985]

pmyers - good question!!! ?????

[Rob Helmerichs]

Question: Was Cleopatra keeping Mark Antony drugged or was it voluntarily?
My interpretation is that it was Antony reacting to not being able to be a soldier...in other words, when he didn't have any battles to fight, he went to pot. So to speak.

[mqpickles]

I agree with everyone who says the Vorenus death was a little weak. I figured one of either Pullo or Vorenus would die, but not that way. Oh well.


Long live Rome!If I had to put money down, I would have bet on Vorenus dying and Pullo living.

I think the only thing that kept Vorenus alive to get back to Rome was sheer will to have a resolution with his children, so it's nice that he got that.

As far as being stabbed in the fight, he and Pullo had several of these 2 on 10+ fights. Sooner or later the odds were bound to catch up with them. Plus, the producers didn't try to mess with makeup or gray hairspray, but Vorenus is not a young man anymore. By the time he is stabbed, he is not in his best fighting form anymore.

I guess I agree it was a "little" weak, but no more than a little.

[mitkraft]

"Am I a clown to you?"

Nice shoutout to Goodfellas

Jeff

A nice shoutout, but a bad scene. That just didn't belong and took me right out of Alexandria. That was just stupid.

But on the whole, this was an AWESOME series. I'll really miss it and Kudos to all those who made it happen at all. Those were two great seasons and I'm glad I had them!

And now that they are over I can cancel my HBO subscription (or hop over to showtime or something) between Entourage seasons!

[GadgetFreak]

I heard "rotten soul"...

I heard "Goth Soul"

[Rob Helmerichs]

I heard "Goth Soul"
"GAUNT soul!"

[pmyers]

A nice shoutout, but a bad scene. That just didn't belong and took me right out of Alexandria. That was just stupid...

I totally agree. Took me right out of the moment. I actually started doing my Pesci impersonation.

[Anubys]

his death was pretty meaningless, and as Anubys the Mis-speller suggested, even a little silly.

would you prefer I go by my original name, Yinepu? your insolence is noted, though... ;)

I think the Timon story was that of conversion/growth...he had lost his way, became an animal almost...it's a story of renewal and spiritual RE-awakening...once he became the man he "should" be (and was before), the story ended...I see no problem with that...

did they change the story because the season ended? I say they probably did, but not to the extent that anything material to the story didn't get told...

[Rob Helmerichs]

did they change the story because the season ended? I say they probably did, but not to the extent that anything material to the story didn't get told...
My feeling is that they greatly truncated it. I suspect that Timon's "conversion" would have happened much later, after they dealt with the Jewish Civil War, had the show gone on as originally envisioned.

Had they included the Jewish Civil War material (which was largely concurrent with the second season events), it could easily have expanded Season 2 into two seasons.

It will be interesting to see if any of the Season 2 DVD extras address how the somewhat premature ending of the show affected their plans...

[appleye1]

Originally Posted by GadgetFreak
I heard "Goth Soul""GAUNT soul!"LOL, and the cool thing is if you missed that one episode thread way back when then you have NO idea what this means! :D

[Rob Helmerichs]

LOL, and the cool thing is if you missed that one episode thread way back when then you have NO idea what this means! :D
But considering that thread comprised 87.23% of all posts that week, how could anybody have missed it? :D

[Anubys]

But considering that thread comprised 87.23% of all posts that week, how could anybody have missed it? :D

/sheepishly raises hand

I missed it and have no clue what it was about :o

[mqpickles]

/sheepishly raises hand

I missed it and have no clue what it was about :oIt's a Lost thing. A big debate about whether Hurley said to Jack, "Dude, you look goth" or "Dude, you look gaunt." Since then, in any Lost thread, or it creeps into others, when a debate comes up about a piece of dialog, goth/gaunt rears its ugly head.

By the way, it was clearly "goth." 1 reason: "goth" is funny, "gaunt" isn't.

[Rob Helmerichs]

It's a Lost thing. A big debate about whether Hurley said to Jack, "Dude, you look goth" or "Dude, you look gaunt." Since then, in any Lost thread, or it creeps into others, when a silly, pedantic debate comes up about a piece of dialog, goth/gaunt rears its ugly head.
Fixed it for you... :D

[dcheesi]

I was surprised that Cleopatra didn't get some poor, doomed servant boy to masquerade as Caesarean and be murdered. It's not like the boy's family could say no.I assume that either Octavian or someone in his faction had seen the boy before, so a substitution might not work. That's probably why Pullo didn't provide any "evidence" of the kill himself.

BTW, that's the one thing that felt off about this episode to me: no way Octavian really believed Pullo's story! Pullo's not even that good of a liar, and anyway Octavian would have expected some sort of proof. And I don't buy the argument that he knew Pullo was the father, either; the only other people who knew about that are dead. Well, unless Cleo's servant didn't "follow" her like she was supposed to... hmm...


well, that part was a little weak...it's a mortal wound, but he's able to not only live for a month, but take an arduous sea-crossing journey to boot :rolleyes:I think the idea is that he survived the initial wounding/bleeding, but a puncture wound that deep would inevitably become infected, leading to a long, slow death. Honestly the thing I always had trouble with is that Pullo never died of similar complications, what with all the nasty wounds he sustained over the years/episodes... I do agree that a month+ is rather far-fetched, though.

I didn't have any problem with Vorenus taking a wound like that; as others have said, a lucky hit like that was bound to happen sooner or later. And they'd given up the element of surprise (at Vorenus' own insistence) and were on the defensive from the start. It was slightly anti-climactic, but then that was almost refreshing after all the super-dramatic deaths earlier in the episode.

[mqpickles]

Fixed it for you... :Dgood fix

[mqpickles]

I assume that either Octavian or someone in his faction had seen the boy before, so a substitution might not work. That's probably why Pullo didn't provide any "evidence" of the kill himself.

BTW, that's the one thing that felt off about this episode to me: no way Octavian really believed Pullo's story! Pullo's not even that good of a liar, and anyway Octavian would have expected some sort of proof. And I don't buy the argument that he knew Pullo was the father, either; the only other people who knew about that are dead. Well, unless Cleo's servant didn't "follow" her like she was supposed to... hmm...Maybe Octavian wanted to prove (to himself) that his soul wasn't entirely rotten.

[pmyers]

Maybe Octavian wanted to prove (to himself) that his soul wasn't entirely rotten.

What was strange to me about the scene was it was like both parties knew each other were lying, didn't even try to put any effort in deception, and where just going through the custumary motions to move on. Seemed a little out of character for both.

Regardless, this season really came through!

[drew2k]

What was strange to me about the scene was it was like both parties knew each other were lying, didn't even try to put any effort in deception, and where just going through the custumary motions to move on. Seemed a little out of character for both.Pullo didn't even salute.

[dcheesi]

Maybe the final scene was just an example of Octavian's "disheartening" manner? Maybe even when he really does mean what he says, he still has that detached, icy stare that makes it seem like he's lying?

[thedudeabides]

BTW, that's the one thing that felt off about this episode to me: no way Octavian really believed Pullo's story! Pullo's not even that good of a liar, and anyway Octavian would have expected some sort of proof. And I don't buy the argument that he knew Pullo was the father, either; the only other people who knew about that are dead. Well, unless Cleo's servant didn't "follow" her like she was supposed to... hmm....

I don't agree. Even though we know Pullo is lying, and he's not the most convincing liar, why would Octavian have any reason not to believe him? He would have no idea that it was really Pullo's son, and Pullo has always been a loyal friend to Octavian, so there is no reason to doubt him now.

[dcheesi]

I don't agree. Even though we know Pullo is lying, and he's not the most convincing liar, why would Octavian have any reason not to believe him? He would have no idea that it was really Pullo's son, and Pullo has always been a loyal friend to Octavian, so there is no reason to doubt him now.Sorry, but if the whole point of killing the boy is to prevent inconvenient claims to the throne, then I at least would have expected/demanded some sort of proof, if only to prevent imposters from coming forward later.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Sorry, but if the whole point of killing the boy is to prevent inconvenient claims to the throne, then I at least would have expected/demanded some sort of proof, if only to prevent imposters from coming forward later.
Well, he brought proof--the head. Which spoiled on the journey across the African desert.

Basically, a plan stupid enough to be perfectly plausible coming from Pullo!

[mqpickles]

I like that the show came full circle in a way, with Pullo becoming a mentor to some bratty member of the royal family and having to take him down a peg or two.

[Anubys]

I didn't notice the first time I saw this ep that Anthony and Cleopatra were paraded in front of Octavian!

I just re-watched last night after a post here mentioned that fact...pretty gruesome...I wish they had made it clearer...all the gold on the cart with them made me think it was just a cart showing spoils of war...

[CTLesq]

I had such mixed feelings about this show. I liked it, I hated it, it was too complicated some weeks to watch if you were drinking.....

Part of me will miss it. Part of me is relieved it is over.

[Figaro]

I didn't notice the first time I saw this ep that Anthony and Cleopatra were paraded in front of Octavian!

I just re-watched last night after a post here mentioned that fact...pretty gruesome...I wish they had made it clearer...all the gold on the cart with them made me think it was just a cart showing spoils of war...
It looked to me like the Cleopatra was just and effigy while the Antony was really Antony.

As for Vorenus dying. There was really nothing else for him to do. He could never go back to having a life with his children. There was way too much bad blood there. With Antony gone he no longer had any higher power to swear allegiance to. He never really seemed to like Octavian so he wasn't going to go back to him. He was part of the old guard and the old guard was dead.

Granted they probably could have given him a better death than getting stabbed in the back, but hell, if it was good enough for Caesar than it is good enough for Vorenus.

[Figaro]

I had such mixed feelings about this show. I liked it, I hated it, it was too complicated some weeks to watch if you were drinking.....

Part of me will miss it. Part of me is relieved it is over.
Don't drink and Rome.

[TAsunder]

I read the scene with pullo and octavian as octavian knowing pullo was lying but that pullo was doing it for a reason and was not acting against octavian's interests.

[Anubys]

I read the scene with pullo and octavian as octavian knowing pullo was lying but that pullo was doing it for a reason and was not acting against octavian's interests.

well, Octavian didn't have a choice but believe Pullo...he could not prove otherwise anyway...cunning as always, he'd rather believe Pullo and keep him as an ally than call him a liar, have the situation not change one bit, and losing Pullo in the process...

whether he believed him or not was not relevant, IMO...

[Legion]

I don't agree. Even though we know Pullo is lying, and he's not the most convincing liar, why would Octavian have any reason not to believe him? He would have no idea that it was really Pullo's son, and Pullo has always been a loyal friend to Octavian, so there is no reason to doubt him now.

Agreed. I didnt read anythign into the scene about Octavian doubting Pullo story. Or that his reward was too keep his son.

[dcheesi]

It looked to me like the Cleopatra was just and effigy while the Antony was really Antony.Hmm, I thought/assumed that they were both effigies (Cleo definitely was). I'll have to go back and look again.

[Figaro]

Hmm, I thought/assumed that they were both effigies (Cleo definitely was). I'll have to go back and look again.
You could see a real ear and part of a neck on Antony.

[Anubys]

I'm quite sure Anthony was his corpse...no reason for Cleopatra not to be...he was planning on parading her alive anyway...what's to stop him from bringing both corpses?

[Figaro]

I'm quite sure Anthony was his corpse...no reason for Cleopatra not to be...he was planning on parading her alive anyway...what's to stop him from bringing both corpses?
Because not letting the Egyptians bury their queen would probably make them rather pissed. He seemed intent on keeping the the Egyptian people from getting too pissed off.

[bdlucas]

I don't agree. Even though we know Pullo is lying, and he's not the most convincing liar, why would Octavian have any reason not to believe him?
Because Octavian is a brilliant politician, and knowing when people are lying is part of that, particularly when it's as obvious as it was with Pullo. He had just the same "too casual" tone he had when Vorenus asked him how things had worked out with the slave girl that tells you there's a lot more to the story than he's letting on. And Octavian is brilliant and connected enough to have figured out the deal with Pullo and his son.

[TAsunder]

But he was telling the truth about the slave girl. He said it's complicated. True.

[bdlucas]

But he was telling the truth about the slave girl. He said it's complicated. True.
Sure. But in both cases the too-casual tone said "there's a lot more to the story than I'm telling you right now." In one case that meant he was telling the truth because his words said the same thing; in the other case his tone belied his words.

[Legion]

But when he met Caesarian for the first time, the boys aked about his mother. In the most casual of tones Pullo replied, "Shes dead".

What was he hiding there?

[Anubys]

But when he met Caesarian for the first time, the boys aked about his mother. In the most casual of tones Pullo replied, "Shes dead".

What was he hiding there?

the fact that he was his father and that he was sent there to kill him are two things that come to mind!

[TAsunder]

Did pullo actually know she was dead? I can't recall.

[astrohip]

And now that they are over I can cancel my HBO subscription (or hop over to showtime or something) between Entourage seasons!
I think Entourage starts next week. Don't cancel that sub yet! :up:

Just looked it up on HBO; the new season starts a week Sunday, April 8.

:up: :up:

[mitkraft]

I think Entourage starts next week. Don't cancel that sub yet! :up:

Just looked it up on HBO; the new season starts a week Sunday, April 8.

:up: :up:

that's why I said "between seasons". I hadn't yet decided if I was going to temprorily switch over so SHO till Entourage started, but I looked the other day and also saw that it was the 8th so I'll wait.

Entourage is easily my favorite show on TV right now.

[Anubys]

Did pullo actually know she was dead? I can't recall.

Once Octavian come into the room and witnessed her death, he dispatched Pullo to find the boy (because it was Vorenous who took him) and kill him...

so yes, Pullo knew Cleopatra was dead...

[Hoffer]

Just got done watching this episode and deleted the season pass. :( Great show and I'll miss it.

[wingerzzz]

Outside of too much Anthony and Cleopatra melodramatics that I was already tired from the previous episode I enjoyed this quite a bit.

Put me in the camp that Octavian did not think Pullo was lying. Pullo is probably the one person he may trust the most with ties that go back to childhood. I think if they were wanting to play it the way others are suggesting that they would have added ten seconds to another scene somewhere with Octavian or someone saying to Octavian something along the lines “What is up with Pullo?” or “What do you think that my son thing really means.”.

As others have suggested I liked Vorenous death although the month to die can be explained by infection it was a bit too much closure thing. I have no problem with him taking on trained Roman soldiers and his age causing an opening. Also there is motivation, at his age and with nothing to fight for really his frame of mind just probably was not as sharp as in his younger days. Being the series finale it was logical for him to die and the way they wrote the episode something like this or dieing in the battle between Octavian and Anthony which they show being done at the start of the episode so that was not really possible so I am not really sure how else they could have done it.

I am too lazy to look this up but I was always led to believe Cleopatra lovers were always chosen to protect her power and Egypt. Is it historically accurate that she did care for Anthony that much?

Also Pullo needs to be spun off into a sitcom, “Pullo knows best”. I can see the stories in my head. In this special episode Pullo must tell his son he has terminal cancer Pullo: “you have cancer and are done for. What’s for dinner?”

[TostitoBandito]

I am too lazy to look this up but I was always led to believe Cleopatra lovers were always chosen to protect her power and Egypt. Is it historically accurate that she did care for Anthony that much?

I'm think she probably had genuine feelings for Antony. The show got their story mostly right, though they compressed Cleopatra's suicide which supposedly occured a few days after Antony killed himself. I'm pretty sure the whole subplot about Octavian's offer to Cleopatra and her attempted betrayal of Anytony was fabrication as well.

[RoundBoy]

A show about Pullo would be awsome. I'm thinking something along the lines of "sienfeld", but instead of the humorous resolutions, Pullo just kills them.

Imagine the soup nazi episode .. after the first "No soup for you", pullo just strangles him ... then grabs some peaches.

Priceless