Tivo versus TV upscalers- Tivo wins

[Justin Thyme]

The conventional wisdom appears to be to use the TV's upscaler instead of Tivo's- it seems to be Tivo's own advice (Under video settings- "Use Native if your TV supports all video modes").

I was very surprized to learn that my new from Costco Sony Bravia KDL40S2000 did a lot worse than the S3's 1080i Fixed output.

Do you have similar or wildly different findings with your upscaler (whether integrated or standalone)?

To show it's not just subjective, I took the trouble of shooting what I saw. For example the attached photos show Jaggies and Mosquito noise (easy to see in animation due to the solid contrasts.

Pictures compare display of a 480i channel first using Sony's own QAM tuner and upscaling circuitry to the same frame as displayed by Tivo S3 in 1080i fixed mode. Closeup photos were taken by a Nikon D200 of a small portion of the screen in order to make artifacts obvious. I had a lot of problems with odd Moire patterns in most of the photos. These two seemed to have the least pronounced effects. Anyhow, ignore the Moire banding.

I wonder if others have seen as dramatic cases with their TVs- either one way or the other. The Tivo is certainly doing something more than the Sony. I can't be anything as complicated as the high end home theater dedicated Mpeg noise reducers, but I would have thought that the Bravia might have been at least close to the Tivo's output.

Other random notes on settings: Bravia: both qam and Tivo inputs set to the same display settings. No difference if Bravia Noise reduction set high or low on its upscale. No significant difference in outcome if sharpness set high or low.

Tivo: smoothing was off.

[Justin Thyme]

In case there are those who thinks this comparison is only true for cartoons, take a look at these sports shots- same settings as before.

[squiredogs]

I have the 52XBR2, and I've also always used 1080 fixed. I hoped to save processing time in the TV by only making it deinterlace. I figured that may lessen lip sync issues. For the most part it does. Some broadcasts are so out of whack (a lot of NBC) that it doesn't matter. Channel switching is quicker too. 720p scaled by the TiVo has been excellent as well. Glad to know I'm not missing anything.

[TivoInNY]

I've found the same thing. I've got a Samsung DLP (HLR) and have used 720p fixed mode on both my old SA8300HD box and the Tivo. I did it on the SA8300HD to make channel changing smoother (and reduce any "work" the TV had to do). On the Tivo, I initially set it to fixed for the same reason, but I've also noticed that it has a pretty darn good scaler - definitely better than the SA8300HD and my TV.

[mooneydriver]

Some TVs have better deinterlacers / scalers than others (the cost of the TV should be a good first indicator). For instance, I'd be surprised if the TiVo scaling would look better than the TV's own scaling on a Pioneer or Fujitsu plasma. If one has the time and inclination, the best method is to try both settings on the TiVo (native vs. fixed) for several shows (preferably with different native formats) and see which one looks better.

In my case (with a Pioneer plasma), native provides the best results because the TV has a great scaler/deinterlacer. Also, scaling is done once rather than twice, thus reducing the risk of scaling artifacts (if the TiVo scales a 480-line or 1080-line show to 720p, for example, the TV will scale it again to 768p internally - that's two scaling operations).

[Justin Thyme]

I know it's rough digging up the model numbers, but without knowing your model number it is impossible to make any sense of the assertions. For example, Sony has long made a big deal about its WEGA MPEG noise reduction circuitry. Maybe some of their rear project WEGA sets don't have this problem. If so, My S series didn't get it, nor apparently did the V series. This reviewer (http://www.hdtvlounge.net/sony/sony-bravia-kdl-v40xbr1-40-in-hdtv-lcd/) appears to have seen the same problems on the V series version of my set (kdl-v40xbr1). (See remarks on performance with 480i Gladiator scene).

[Carlos_E]

I have a Sony 40XBR1 HD LCD. Is the series 3 scaler better than the one in the 40XBR1?

[hornblowercat]

Some TVs have better deinterlacers / scalers than others (the cost of the TV should be a good first indicator). For instance, I'd be surprised if the TiVo scaling would look better than the TV's own scaling on a Pioneer or Fujitsu plasma. If one has the time and inclination, the best method is to try both settings on the TiVo (native vs. fixed) for several shows (preferably with different native formats) and see which one looks better.

In my case (with a Pioneer plasma), native provides the best results because the TV has a great scaler/deinterlacer. Also, scaling is done once rather than twice, thus reducing the risk of scaling artifacts (if the TiVo scales a 480-line or 1080-line show to 720p, for example, the TV will scale it again to 768p internally - that's two scaling operations).

I use the native on my 800.00 two years ago 30" crt Sony Wega. It works just fine.

[pkscout]

The scaler on my Vizio 37" LCD is definitely very marginal (not surprising given it was $900). I used it for the first few days and then finally set the TiVo to 720p fixed (the Vizio is a 720p display). There was a noticeable difference on SD content (which has to be up converted). Obviously not much difference with down converted 1080i.

[DeathRider]

I use the scaler on the S3 and set my Westy @ 720p fixed.

One reason, my 3213 only stretches SD, doesn't do zoom, which I need for watching SD letterbox recordings :D

[acvthree]

I have my Tivo set to native mode and let my Pioneer receiver do all the scaling for my Samsung TV.

The scaling on the Pioneer is a little better but it is very close.

The main reason for doing this is that it lets me use the zoom feature on the Tivo for letter boxed 480i. The receiver then does the scaling to 720p. This seems to work great.

There are a number of people on this forum that seem to have a lot of knowledge about scalers. I've been surprised we haven't had someone review the chip that is used on the Tivo.

Al

[ashu]

I don't know if you should be impressed with the TiVo quite as much as you should be disappointed with your Sony TV :)

My dirt cheap, noname Sceptre 1080P LCD also has average scaling, but I bought it knowing that, and paid a LOT less for it than the Sony XBR2 LCD prices. I let my TiVo scale to 1080i and enjoy the savings. FWIW, I can barely tell the difference between my TiVo's scaling & the TV's, which implies (by the LESS dramatic difference) that it scales better than that Sony :eek: For half the price!

I still love my PS3 and its BluRay capability, but wish Sony weren't quite as evil as they are slowly turning. Pity Sony keeps on and on and on (...) offering less than they promise :)

[Carlos_E]

I don't know if you should be impressed with the TiVo quite as much as you should be disappointed with your Sony TV :)

My dirt cheap, noname Sceptre 1080P LCD also has average scaling, but I bought it knowing that, and paid a LOT less for it than the Sony XBR2 LCD prices. I let my TiVo scale to 1080i and enjoy the savings. FWIW, I can barely tell the difference between my TiVo's scaling & the TV's, which implies (by the LESS dramatic difference) that it scales better than that Sony :eek: For half the price!

I still love my PS3 and its BluRay capability, but wish Sony weren't quite as evil as they are slowly turning. Pity Sony keeps on and on and on (...) offering less than they promise :)
Have you updated your PS3 to the 1.6 firmware? New features werre added.

2.0 is the big firmware that will include PS2 game & DVD upscaling.

"2.00 is a major update and will include many new and exciting features, including password protecting your accounts, RSS Channel, new Photo effects, new Music visualizers, new media codecs, upscaling for PS/PS2 titles and DVDs, xmb during playing, as well as an integrated Help (?) system. Expect to hear alot more about 2.00 at E3."

[DeathRider]

I still love my PS3 and its BluRay capability, but wish Sony weren't quite as evil as they are slowly turning. Pity Sony keeps on and on and on (...) offering less than they promise :)

Slowly turning? Sony has always been proprietary (Betamax, MD, Magic Gate, Memory Stick, UMD, Blueray, ect. Or are you talking about rootkit?

[XBR]

...Sony has long made a big deal about its WEGA MPEG noise reduction circuitry. Maybe some of their rear project WEGA sets don't have this problem...My Sony KDS-60A2000 rear projector is considered a "Grand WEGA," but it doesn't seem like it has the performance step-up the old WEGA chassis had before Sony bought them. Nowadays it seems like lesser Sony chassis just have fewer features relative to WEGA, rather than markedly different performance.

While as of late, in many cases XBR doesn't have the step-up in performance and build quality they had years ago either, from what I understand, the XBR2 rear projector does indeed have a higher performance chassis than my "Grand WEGA" A2000. The A2000 chassis is considered "noisier" than the XBR2 chassis; my A2000 is rather noisy on high-frequency multiburst test patterns (which is why I feed it with an Algolith Flea HDMI); I can only assume the XBR2 does better in this regard, as well as other areas (they revved "DRC" in the XBR2 relative to the A2000, which is their marketing name for their brand of noise reduction/detail enhancement).

[ADG]

I have a Sony 40v2500 and just switched to 1080i fixed on the S3 simply because I got tired of the delay and "jumping" when changing channels / modes or going to tivo menus. If there is a difference in picture quality, I certainly can't see it.

[james.92]

Justin,

Sony is not noted in the industry for good video processing (de-interlacing, scaling, lack of artifacts, etc.) even in their more expensive models. Their marketing people would have you believe otherwise, unfortunately.

Google a little and you will see their displays failing basic tasks or in some instances actually working when their advanced "features" are disabled. :(

I used to be a big Sony guy back in the day when the Trinitron ruled, but not today.

[danieljanderson]

Does THX certification influence the quality of the scaler (among other things)?

[TostitoBandito]

Does THX certification influence the quality of the scaler (among other things)?

I don't think so, no.

[CraigHB]

I've tried both native and 720p fixed with mine and haven't found much of a difference in picture quality between the two. I have a Toshiba 720p LCD. I ended up going with 720p fixed on the TiVo. Pretty happy with the quality I get.

[CheezWiz]

My 42" Hitachi 1080i ($1100) Plasma is MUCH better in native mode...

[CharlesH]

Then, there are those of us with HD-TVs that don't accept 480i over HDMI, so Native is out. :( My TV (LCD Samsung) is 1080p, so I set the TiVo to 1080i fixed.

[astrohip]

I have a Sony 40v2500 and just switched to 1080i fixed on the S3 simply because I got tired of the delay and "jumping" when changing channels / modes or going to tivo menus. If there is a difference in picture quality, I certainly can't see it.
+1. I have the XBR3, which is Sony's latest LCD technology, and I couldn't see the difference between native (letting Sony do the work), and 1080 fixed (letting TiVo do the work). If there's a diff, it's just too close for me to call.

And since I couldn't see a diff, I went fixed, as the SD/HD juking drives me nuts. :cool:

[Canoehead]

Then, there are those of us with HD-TVs that don't accept 480i over HDMI, so Native is out. :( My TV (LCD Samsung) is 1080p, so I set the TiVo to 1080i fixed.

Same - they really need a mode on the S3 to turn 480i into 480p, but leave all else native.

[jlib]

...I was very surprized to learn that my new from Costco Sony Bravia KDL40S2000 did a lot worse than the S3's 1080i Fixed output....Your findings are particularly weird because the Sony is then taking the upscaled 1080i from the S3 and downscaling/deinterlacing it to its native resolution (720p or maybe 768p) which you would think would cause more artifacts than the simpler upscaling/deinterlacing done by the Sony on its tuner's 480i signal.

[Justin Thyme]

Justin,

Sony is not noted in the industry for good video processing (de-interlacing, scaling, lack of artifacts, etc.) even in their more expensive models. Their marketing people would have you believe otherwise, unfortunately.

Google a little and you will see their displays failing basic tasks or in some instances actually working when their advanced "features" are disabled. :(

I used to be a big Sony guy back in the day when the Trinitron ruled, but not today.
For displays, I go not with what my head tells me a unit should do, but what my eyes tell me in side by side comparisons. 4 years ago, I bought a 42 in Hitachi. This year, the Bravia 40 was the best (for the money) in terms of color accuracy and range. In terms of consumer strategy, my thinking is: displays outlast video processors as in the computer world where displays outlast cpus. So the video processor belongs in a separate component that you can upgrade after it goes obsolete, and you shouldn't be paying huge amounts for an integrated one in the display. I don't own any external video processors (yet), but that may not be forever.

[TostitoBandito]

I have a higher-end Sony LCD (XBR2) and have noticed the opposite. When I first got the TV I played around with various configurations. I looked carefully and noticed a drop in IQ and sharpness when I let the Tivo scale 720p/480i to 1080i (and then the TV scales to 1080p) versus just letting the TV or my 1080p-scaling receiver deal with it and make it 1080p in one step. It wasn't a huge difference, as nothing really is when nitpicking at those resolutions, but it was there. I know that the video processing in my TV is supposedly more advanced than those in the S and V series, though there are probably other more subtle internal electronic differences as well, which could play a role.

[rjom]

I have a Samsung LN-S4696 1080P. I run the TIVO at Native through Component. Since the TIVO output is only 1080i, I never bothered to run it through HDMI. The picture has always been beautiful, so I never considered switching to HDMI. I assumed there would be no difference since the TIVO is 1080i and the TV would do its thing anyway. Does anyone think that the Samsung would do better 1080p upscaling thru HDMI, improving the PQ beyond the 1080i through component?

[RARamaker]

The Sony Bravia KDL40S2000 is 720p (actually 786) native display. I would try setting the TiVo to 720p instead of 1080i. This will reduce 2 conversions:

native -> 1080i -> 720/768p

to one conversion:

native -> 720p.

That's what I use with my HR20. Note that if your source is 1080i, then both cases result in one conversion. However, for native 720p, the first case results in two conversions and the second in none.

[james.92]

For displays, I go not with what my head tells me a unit should do, but what my eyes tell me in side by side comparisons. 4 years ago, I bought a 42 in Hitachi. This year, the Bravia 40 was the best (for the money) in terms of color accuracy and range. In terms of consumer strategy, my thinking is: displays outlast video processors as in the computer world where displays outlast cpus. So the video processor belongs in a separate component that you can upgrade after it goes obsolete, and you shouldn't be paying huge amounts for an integrated one in the display. I don't own any external video processors (yet), but that may not be forever.

I don't plan on spending 2 grand or more on a Lumagen or DVDO in addition to what the display costs. :)

I expect a display or projector to have decent processing built in. Spend some time with a Pioneer or Fujitsu plasma or a Runco or Nuvision LCD or a Sanyo PLV-Z5 projector and you can see the difference. Easily. :)

Anyway, I'm glad to know the S3 scales well. As the price drops I get closer and closer to buying one myself.

[dcpmark]

I've tried both native and 720p fixed with mine and haven't found much of a difference in picture quality between the two. I have a Toshiba 720p LCD. I ended up going with 720p fixed on the TiVo. Pretty happy with the quality I get.

I wish I could 720p fixed as well because I hate the jumpy mode changes, but at that setting my Pioneer PDP-5061 plasma automatically takes the SD broadcasts and puts them in "Wide" mode, which is a setting that keeps the center part of the picture normal and stretches the outer part to fill the 16:9. I HATE this mode, and I can't find a way to change it. If I could figure out a way to make the Pioneer display SD in "Cinema" mode while the S3 is outputting 720p, I would do it in a heartbeat.

[Justin Thyme]

Regarding the theory that 1080i -> 720p conversion problems has something to do with the poor results. Understand that the Sony pictures are: Tivo out of the loop- Sony is doing its best upscale on the raw 480i data from the Sony's own QAM channel. The Tivo is not involved at all in any of the "Sony" pictures.

The point that the Tivo results could be a little better if I went to 720p fixed did not produce any obvious differences. Sorry, but I could as well repost the identical images for the Tivo upscale into 720p rather than 1080i.

I understand how other don't have the time to take photos to substantiate their claims, but I don't really have a lot of data on which models seem to have better upscalers than Tivos.

"Pioneer" or Fujistu: Presumably a PDP-4271HD or the 50 inch variant is asserted to be the better upscalers?
Sony XBR- Presumably a KDL46XBR2 would do the better job than Tivo on 480i upscale?
"Hitachi" Is it felt that a 42HDS69 would offer better upscales than Tivo S3?

Any left out makes/ models, let me know. I am dang curious to test these assertions since seeing that my Sony was an emperor with no clothes.

[HDTiVo]

The conventional wisdom appears to be to use the TV's upscaler instead of Tivo's- it seems to be Tivo's own advice (Under video settings- "Use Native if your TV supports all video modes").

I was very surprized to learn that my new from Costco Sony Bravia KDL40S2000 did a lot worse than the S3's 1080i Fixed output.

Another example of the conventional wisdom being wrong.

Scaling was a major factor in my deciding to keep the S3 when I was first using it with a cheap HDTV. Now that I use it with this year's Sony Bravia XBR2 LCD, the Sony is better - though I admit to using 1080i Hybrid just to reduce the format switching.

Back in October I put out a description (http://hdtivo.wordpress.com/2006/10/27/series-3-looking-like-a-keeper/) of how I valued the S3 and decided to keep it, with a table at the bottom. $200 was assigned to scaling at that time.

[Justin Thyme]

... rather noisy on high-frequency multiburst test patterns (which is why I feed it with an Algolith Flea HDMI); ...
I have remarked quite a bit on the Algolith Mosquito and it's little brother, the nearly as capable Flea. Yet I was expecting someone might bring up the dragonfly. But man oh man, I could buy a lot of $24 HD disks for the thousands one of those cost. Even at $999, the flea is a question because it deals with mpeg artifacts, not the scaling /de interlace problem.

Looking at these photos, I was struck by the artifacts from the de interlace, not the mpeg noise. Noting that these both showed up during motion, I am now seeing that this is the factor that I have found is so annoying about the Tv's upscale. Although present during frames at rest, it is most annoying during sudden motion. This suggests that Tivo/Broadcom's superior performance is due to a motion adaptive algorithm.

Whatever is causing this better scaling performance, I would hope that Tivo recognizes how relevant this scaling is to the Mass Market. Folks are wheeling these really big screens out the doors of Walmart, Costco and BestBuy. One of the first thinkgs they notice is that their old SD sources look really bad and are ready to pay for new input devices (eg Tivo, dvd upscalers, HD DVD...) to deal with it. The mass market will choose the sweet spot somewhere between doing nothing and paying $24 per blueray disk.

BKDTV noted (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4367633&&#post4367633) when it came out that the S3 did not use the newer broadcom chips that purportedly have better algorithms and double the video processing throughput for such operations. Perhaps such newer Tivo models will be in the position of opting for the newer chips and will continue to push the envelope in this area. It's and intereresting cost/market benefit question.

[DCIFRTHS]

I decided to give the S3 another shot at converting output to 1080i. My TV is a Sony KDL-40XBR2, and is connected to the S3 via an HDMI cable. House is broadcast in 720p, so the TiVo is converting the output to 1080i and, if I understand this correctly, the TV is deinterlacing the signal to 1080p.

While watching the latest episode of House, there is a scene where House is standing next to a white board with writing (black in color) on it. The writing looked like it was shimmering, so I rewound to check it again. The shimmering is reproducible.

I changed the output of the S3 to Native, and replayed the scene. The TiVo was now putting out 720p, and the shimmering was gone.

Any ideas as to why this may be happening?

[ashu]

Upscaling and interlacing high contrast material is about as difficult as upscaling & interlacing high motion material. A slow pan in high contrast is quite bad too (fast pan, high contrast - double whammy)

And 'difficult' refers to the complexity introduced into the process to finally deinterlace it again and (attempt, apparently with futility to ) interpret the interlaced data.

Obviously, the easiest sources to de/interlace are those that are captured ni high color, low contrast and zero motion!

[DCIFRTHS]

So it seems, in my case, that the TV is handling the conversions more "gracefully", and Native mode is the way to go for me. Sound correct?

[TostitoBandito]

So it seems, in my case, that the TV is handling the conversions more "gracefully", and Native mode is the way to go for me. Sound correct?

Yes.

[DCIFRTHS]

Yes.

It's too bad because I hate the delay, every time the resolution changes, in Native mode.

I wish that MRV was enabled so that I could transfer the show to my larger living room TV. I'm curious to see how that TV handles it. Swapping boxes (logistically) is too hard at the moment.

[ashu]

Why don't you compare to a locked 720p fixed setting no the TiVo? Not detrimental to (the few) 720p channels, and likely no worse than your TV's 1080i->720p scaling. And no synch/delay issues like in Native mode (which are your TV's fault, BTW - my TV re-synchs over HDMI incredibly quickly in Native mode)

[DCIFRTHS]

Why don't you compare to a locked 720p fixed setting no the TiVo? Not detrimental to (the few) 720p channels, and likely no worse than your TV's 1080i->720p scaling.

Do you mean my TV's 720p -> 1080i scaling? If not, I'm not sure what you are suggesting. All video on my set is displayed at 1080p. If that is what you meant, I don't want to convert the 1080i signals to 720p only to have the TV convert it to 1080p.


And no synch/delay issues like in Native mode (which are your TV's fault, BTW - my TV re-synchs over HDMI incredibly quickly in Native mode)

I think it's more of an HDMI HDCP handshaking issue. How fast does your TV resync from watching a 1080i show to the TiVo Central screen? What's fast to you may be slow to me :) I too, will check, and post back.

I do acknowledge that the Sony sets seem to have a longer delay than most other brands :(

[gwar9999]

Your findings are particularly weird because the Sony is then taking the upscaled 1080i from the S3 and downscaling/deinterlacing it to its native resolution (720p or maybe 768p) which you would think would cause more artifacts than the simpler upscaling/deinterlacing done by the Sony on its tuner's 480i signal.

Why do people keep stating that converting from 1080i to 720p is "downscaling"? I've seen this twice now in this thread.

I've always been told by pseudo-experts that 1080i is effectively the equivalent of 540p such that converting from 1080i to 720p should be considered "upscaling".

This seems to make sense to me-- afterall, 1080i technology predates 720p, so I would certainly assume that 720p offers better resolution that 1080i, so if you're going from less to more (1080i to 720p) then you are upscaling.

[Carlos_E]

I have a Sony KDL-V40XBR1. So the general consensus is the scaler in the Tivo is better and I should set the Tivo to 720p fixed?

[ectx]

Slowly turning? Sony has always been proprietary (Betamax, MD, Magic Gate, Memory Stick, UMD, Blueray, ect. Or are you talking about rootkit?

Blu-ray is not proprietary or sony exclusive. One might venture to say that HDDVD is more proprietary as its main component producer and backer is Toshiba, whereas bluray is made and was developed by several electronics and computer houses.

[TostitoBandito]

Why do people keep stating that converting from 1080i to 720p is "downscaling"? I've seen this twice now in this thread.

I've always been told by pseudo-experts that 1080i is effectively the equivalent of 540p such that converting from 1080i to 720p should be considered "upscaling".

This seems to make sense to me-- afterall, 1080i technology predates 720p, so I would certainly assume that 720p offers better resolution that 1080i, so if you're going from less to more (1080i to 720p) then you are upscaling.

Cause 1080i is higher resolution than 720p, though because of the interlacing most people perceive them as about the same. 1080i is essentially two 540 line images interwoven (interlaced) with each other x (usually 30x2=60) number of times a second to create a 1080 line image. Since non-CRT TV's can only display progressively scanned images, they must deinterlace this (convert to progressive) and this is what results in artifacts, shimmering, and other things that reduce the quality of the image. Broadcasters use 1080i over 720p on some broadcasts because it gives them more lines of resolution for roughly the same bandwidth as 720p. Then they can brag about having higher resolution. In practice, image quality has more to do with the quality of the source and the compression/decompression gauntlet it went through to get to you than what resolution they decide to give it to you in. There is plenty of 1080i that looks like crap, and plenty that looks amazing. Same for 720p. It won't be until quality 1080p@60 broadcasts show up that you will have a clear HD resolution winner, and that is a long time off, if it happens at all.

[ashu]

Do you mean my TV's 720p -> 1080i scaling? If not, I'm not sure what you are suggesting. All video on my set is displayed at 1080p. If that is what you meant, I don't want to convert the 1080i signals to 720p only to have the TV convert it to 1080p.


Whoops - I thought you owned a 720p TV -forgot it was a 1800p. yeah, 1080i fixed is best for your needs!

I think it's more of an HDMI HDCP handshaking issue. How fast does your TV resync from watching a 1080i show to the TiVo Central screen? What's fast to you may be slow to me :) I too, will check, and post back.

I do acknowledge that the Sony sets seem to have a longer delay than most other brands :(

About half a second to one second when I leave it in native mode. But the TV does inferior scaling to 1080P, so I have the TiVo set to 1080i fixed

[gwar9999]

Cause 1080i is higher resolution than 720p, though because of the interlacing most people perceive them as about the same. 1080i is essentially two 540 line images interwoven (interlaced) with each other x (usually 30x2=60) number of times a second to create a 1080 line image. Since non-CRT TV's can only display progressively scanned images, they must deinterlace this (convert to progressive) and this is what results in artifacts, shimmering, and other things that reduce the quality of the image. Broadcasters use 1080i over 720p on some broadcasts because it gives them more lines of resolution for roughly the same bandwidth as 720p. Then they can brag about having higher resolution. In practice, image quality has more to do with the quality of the source and the compression/decompression gauntlet it went through to get to you than what resolution they decide to give it to you in. There is plenty of 1080i that looks like crap, and plenty that looks amazing. Same for 720p. It won't be until


quality 1080p@60 broadcasts show up that you will have a clear HD resolution winner, and that is a long time off, if it happens at all.

Thanks for the clarification. I've been reading some random 1080i vs 720p threads and the basic rule of thumb is: for non action sequences 1080i is preferred and for scenes with a lot of action (ie. sports) 720p is better. Of course there are lots of variables, as you mention, in terms of the source not to mention any addtional compression techniques the middle man (ie. satellite/cable provider) imposes on the feed.

For my personal system which includes a Samsung 720p DLP TV, a Yamaha RX-V2700 receiver and Tivo S3, setting the S3 to use fixed 720p works fine for me such that is passes through the RX-V2700 and onto the TV w/o further conversion. In doing so I don't notice any artifacts, pixelation or any other annoyances. This differs greatly from my former SA8300HD which had horrific pixelation issues (among many, many... many other flaws)

[ashu]

Again, for non-0action, 1080i is NOT preferred ONLY when ...
- the camera is 1080i native (because this implies there is motion between successive half-frames, and reproduction on a profgressive set requires motion adaptive deinterlacing)

If the action was captured 1080p native, or, like a movie, 1080p24 native - then interlacing it and adding info about the frame sequences (which good 1080p TVs should interpret PERFECTLY recreating 'perfect' 1080p24*) is trivial and it is preferred it be broadcast as such.

The cost of such cameras, and the higher prevalence of 1080i equipment in the camera->editing->transmission path is why 1080i seems to have caught on big.


* Of course, 'perfect' reproduction is beter achhieved on a TV with a multipl fo 24 as the frame rate - say 72, or 120 (the holy grail, as it is the smallest multiple of 24 & 30!)

[HDTiVo]

Do you mean my TV's 720p -> 1080i scaling? If not, I'm not sure what you are suggesting. All video on my set is displayed at 1080p. If that is what you meant, I don't want to convert the 1080i signals to 720p only to have the TV convert it to 1080p.

I have the same TV as you and I use 1080i Hybird because the switching between wide mode settings the TV does to/from 1080i/480p avoids some manual scrambling with remotes needed at 1080i fixed for SD programs. It eliminates switching with HD & TiVo-Menu, but you suffer with the slow HD/SD switch. The SD signal looks better, I think because the other way (1080i Fixed) the TV or the TiVo has to letter(pillar)box it to get the aspect ratio right. I don't remember exactly because I've just been doing it for a while.

[TostitoBandito]

I have the same TV as you and I use 1080i Hybird because the switching between wide mode settings the TV does to/from 1080i/480p avoids some manual scrambling with remotes needed at 1080i fixed for SD programs. It eliminates switching with HD & TiVo-Menu, but you suffer with the slow HD/SD switch. The SD signal looks better, I think because the other way (1080i Fixed) the TV or the TiVo has to letter(pillar)box it to get the aspect ratio right. I don't remember exactly because I've just been doing it for a while.

If you don't have pillar boxes on SD it means your image is either stretched and distorted or it is zoomed in and you lost some of it.

[HDTiVo]

If you don't have pillar boxes on SD it means your image is either stretched and distorted or it is zoomed in and you lost some of it.
I'm describing something else which involves the TV switching or not to/from one of its wide modes appropriate for whether the content is HD/SD which ends up making 1080i Hybrid less of a hassle overall (provided you are not rapidly switching between HD/SD like in a channel surf.)

[DeathRider]

Blu-ray is not proprietary or sony exclusive. One might venture to say that HDDVD is more proprietary as its main component producer and backer is Toshiba, whereas bluray is made and was developed by several electronics and computer houses.

You're right. But with Blue Ray being associated with Apple [which is proprietary], and Sony [which is proprietary, as well as being associated with Rootkit, MPAA - Sony|BMG, Sony Pictures], as well as Disney [Getting Sunny Bono to extend the length of copyright so Mickey Mouse wouldn't fall into public domain, which in turn screwed everybody - can't even do a decent documentary - clip with Martin L King singing "Happy Birthday" can't even be used], I hope Bluray fails...miserably.

[jlib]

Why do people keep stating that converting from 1080i to 720p is "downscaling"? I've seen this twice now in this thread.

I've always been told by pseudo-experts that 1080i is effectively the equivalent of 540p such that converting from 1080i to 720p should be considered "upscaling".

This seems to make sense to me-- afterall, 1080i technology predates 720p, so I would certainly assume that 720p offers better resolution that 1080i, so if you're going from less to more (1080i to 720p) then you are upscaling.What you are saying is conceptually correct when thinking of the steps involved (de-interlace to 540P then scale to 720P) but it does not take into account the lost horizontal resolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/720p#720p_versus_1080i). If you compare the total pixels then you are downscaling from 1036800 to 921600 pixels.