Considering jumping in.

[PRB]

Before I jump I would like to know what I am jumping into. I don’t like the thought of purchasing a product that requires a subscription service in order for the product to be useful therefore I am hoping someone can tell me exactly what you can do with a Tivo unit if you do not subscribe to ANY Tivo service(s)???
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I am considering the Series 2 Dual Tuner 180g unit. I like the idea of connecting it to my home network using the TiVo Wireless G USB Network Adapter.
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A few questions that come to mind;
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Do I have to subscribe to a TiVo service to be able to use the networking feature for my (internal) home network?
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Can you still pause and rewind live TV?
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Can you still get Interactive Program Guide information?
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Things like this are what I need to know.
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I understand, and accept, that there will be some features that will be lost if I don’t subscribe to any TiVo services. I just need to know what they are before I make my decision. Any feedback about this would be greatly appreciated.

[n548gxg]

If you do not subscribe, your tivo will NOT work.

[jmoak]

If you don’t like the thought of purchasing a product that requires a subscription service in order for the product to be useful then I would not suggest buyiing a tivo.

You have to subscribe to the tivo service to be able to use the networking features.

If I'm not mistaken, ALL you can do without a subscription is pause and rewind live tv.

Without a subscription, there is no Interactive Program Guide information.

I'm not trying to be nasty or anything, really.
:o

[michigan bob]

Here are my thoughts:


I am considering the Series 2 Dual Tuner 180g unit. I like the idea of connecting it to my home network using the TiVo Wireless G USB Network Adapter.

-Get the DT with 80 hours and then get a larger harddrive on ebay for about $100.
-Once you get this, you will wonder why you didnt get one earlier.

If you're worried about spending money on the unit. Pick a lifetime up off EBAY and if you dont like it you call always sell it for about the same on EBAY.

[Bierboy]

....I am hoping someone can tell me exactly what you can do with a Tivo unit if you do not subscribe to ANY Tivo service(s)???....Nothing....but what jmoak says.

[JimSpence]

If you don't want to subscribe, then consider a DVD recorder with a hard drive. For example, I have the LiteOn LVW5045 with a 160GB hard drive. It has an NTSC tuner and timer like a VCR. You can even watch a recording from the beginning while it's still recording. Record to the HD, do some editing and then burn to a DVD.

[mtchamp]

The problem you are having with a monthly subscription is that you don't know the value of the service provided by TiVo. It's very hard to imagine why the TiVo service is worth the subscription price until you use it. Just buy one at retail and it will work for a short time without a subscription. If you like it, activate the subscription, if not, return it. It's as simple as that, rather than worrying about thinking you need to make a commitment before trying it. It took me all of 3 hours to call TiVo and activate my first one 6 years ago. There are so many features and benefits delivered by TiVo that are not available for free anywhere else, that you should find something to justify the cost.

[atmuscarella]

If you do end up getting a TiVo the lowest cost plan for new costumers is the 3 year prepaid plain for $299, which is about $8.30/mo. I think you will find the TiVo service is well worth it.

Good Luck,

[brebeans]

Hi:
If you don't have (and aren't considering getting in the near futre) HDTV, then go with a Series 2, dual tuner or not.

You can either buy one and pay subscription costs....or buy one on craigs list or ebay with a lifetime subscription, which will be a bit more, since you're getting the lifetime subscription that comes with the box.

Tivo is definitely worth it. It has great functionality and is both fun and easy to use. The home media option and internet connections are great.

[timckelley]

I don't have to pay because I have a lifetime subscription, but if I did pay, it's possible to justify the cost by noting that since I got TiVo (years ago), I have literally zeroed out my monthly Blockbuster video rental expense. There are so many movies on TV that I wouldn't have known about were it not for my TiVo, that I have no need to rent movies anymore. When you consider the size of my channel selection, plus the 24x7 access by TiVo, plus the searching features, plus (until recently) the Showcase menus, which were handy for finding good movies, plus the no-commercial aspect of watching movies, you can understand why I don't need to rent movies anymore.

Also, I love the 7 second instant replay for catching a line of dialog or an image, etc that I missed or didn't catch. Too bad my DVD player doesn't have that feature. (I suppose it's possible some DVD players might though.)

[Lazlo123]

Personally, i don't mind products that require subscription services... otherwise i wouldn't have a cell phone, or a phone at all... my cable modem would then be useless because i wouldn't be subscribing to the isp... and tivo is worth subscribing to in my opinion.. well worth it! and since i payed up front for 3 years, i don't need to even worry about a monthly subscription, for 3 years at least... some of my wife's family has tivo and i knew i would be hanging on to it for more than a year...

[ChuckyBox]

If you do end up getting a TiVo the lowest cost plan for new costumers is the 3 year prepaid plain for $299 [ ... ]
You don't have to be a costumer or member of any other theatrical union. Regular customers can get that deal, too.

[PRB]

Wow, I'm impressed. All this feedback is great, and it is truly appreciated.
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It's not that I'm a cheapskate or a penny pincher or the like, but (quick background) I recently, and voluntarily, terminated my employment to move in with, and take care of, an aging parent full time. I was working for a large cable company. I had all the services, including DVR service, all for “FREE”.
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Now I have to pay my own cable bill (quoting Lisa in “My Cousin Vinny” at the end of the movie, "Oh my God, what a freaking nightmare"). Go ahead, feel free to rub it in, friends and relatives have already rubbed to the point where it is numb. That’s alright though, I just said to them that I still had many, many years of FREE stuff (thousands of $$$ worth) that they didn’t have, this makes me feel a little better (but not much). (Caveat: for self protection and preservation, FYI - I had nothing to do with the cost of cable service, I worked in tech support.)
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I am now looking at ways to reduce my expenses if it becomes necessary in the future. I can give up the digital service, HBO and other premium channels without blinking, but I have become addicted to the DVR and cringe at the thought of having to be without it. It's frightening, nightmarish even. Thus, if I could drop the DVR service and replace it with a TiVo, and then in the future if I had to reduce expenses further by NOT renewing my TiVo subscription, I needed to know that I could still use the TiVo, at least for pausing and rewinding live TV and hopefully, after going to TV Guide’s web site for programming info, still be able to at least schedule manual recordings.
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This is why I'm trying to find out what basic functions would still work if I were not able to renew my TiVo subscription(s). (thinking, thinking) Although, if I were to get the lifetime subscription BEFORE I run low on money, it would be too late to take it back and I would always have a full functioning TiVo, even if I wouldn't have a cable or satellite TV signal to hook up to it, God forbid. Thanks for listening.

[timckelley]

Well I should say that if you don't subscribe (either monthly, prepay, or lifetime), then you will not be able to schedule even manual recordings (let alone automatic). I think Live TV and rewind would still be possible.

HOWEVER, if you buy a series 1 TiVo instead of a series 2 or series 3, then (depending on the model), you could indeed schedule manual recordings without subscribing.

There are pros and cons to this, which I can personally testify to. My first TiVO was a series 2, which I subscribed to lifetime. Then I wanted a second TiVo because my wife was hogging the first one, but I didn't want to pay another lifetime ($300). I wanted a cheap way to get a second TiVo. So I went to ebay and bought a series 1, that was unsubbed. You can get those for cheap off of ebay.

For a whole year, I used it for manual recordings. Not only can you use schedule manual recordings, but you can also do 'manual repeating recordings' to catch regular series you want to watch. You also have access to the 'keep at most' feature, even on an unsubbed TiVo (series one). That is, you can tell it to record every day at 7 pm on channel 4 (or once a week, or every Tuesday and Thursday, etc, etc), and say 'keep at most x episodes'. If it tries to record the 'x+1'th episode, it'll delete the oldest to keep it's inventory at x episodes.

So yes, you can do quite a bit with an unsubbed series 1. But after a year, I got tired of not having interactive guide data, and somtimes I'd miss a show due to unexpected schedule changes (e.g. presidential debate delaying the episode), but a subscription would have caught that.

So I wound up eventually subscribing monthly at $6/month. After one month of that, TiVo secretly announced (though these forums) that lifetime was going away, so I lifetimed it just in time while I still could. (Thanks to this forum for warning me of this. :D I'm really glad I read these forums. :up: )

Now, today, I have regrets that my second TiVo was not a series 2 instead of a series 1. Here's what you can't do in a series 1 that you can do in a series 2:

1) HMO (multi-room viewing)
2) TiVO 2 Go (transferring shows between PC and TiVo)
3) Folders
4) Recently deleted folder.
5) possible new features that may or may not be deployed in the future.
6) The new dual tuner series 2 can recording two channels at once, while you watch a 3rd (through your TV tuner).

Now, I don't really care that much personally about 1-6 above, except #1, and maybe #6. My wife likes to watch TV downstairs by day, and upstairs in bed at night, but my TiVO is upstairs while hers is downstairs. It would be really nice to be able to transfer her shows from downstairs to upstairs as needed. (On second thought, maybe it's a blessing, as such a feature could cause her to creep her shows into my hard drive, hogging my TiVo like she once did.)

So anyway, I just wanted to point out the pros and cons of the different strategies available.

Oh, and of course now there's the new disadvantage of series 1's. During 3 weeks in March, and 1 week in November, if you do manual recordings, you have to adjust the times by 1 hour to account for lack of accurate daylight savings time rules. (Uncle Sam's recent DST changes were not deployed to series 1.)

[ZeoTiVo]

see if you can find a (discontinued) Sd H400 TiVo from Toshiba. it probably lists for 199$ but it comes with TiVo basic which lets you pause /rewind TV and setup manual recordings with 3 days of guide data. It also has a DVD player in it.

You do not get the networking features like HMO with TiVo basic but as a recorder it works alright. I went 3 days and then got a sub as I knew how much I liked all the networking features and season passes but it can go back to TiVo basic at any time.

so maybe you can find one of these and then get to decide if you want to sub it or not.

[mattack]

I am now looking at ways to reduce my expenses if it becomes necessary in the future. I can give up the digital service, HBO and other premium channels without blinking, but I have become addicted to the DVR and cringe at the thought of having to be without it. It's frightening, nightmarish even. Thus, if I could drop the DVR service and replace it with a TiVo, and then in the future if I had to reduce expenses further by NOT renewing my TiVo subscription, I needed to know that I could still use the TiVo, at least for pausing and rewinding live TV and hopefully, after going to TV Guide’s web site for programming info, still be able to at least schedule manual recordings.

(Why the heck are you putting - in between paragraphs??)

No, you CANNOT make manual recordings with current Tivos without subscription.

You can buy USED Tivo Series 1 recorders and use them without subscription.. but really, if you want to do that, it's really better to buy a non-Tivo recorder (as others have mentioned), since they're *better suited* to working without a subscription. (Especially the ones with DVD recorders in them.) Using a Tivo without a subscription is just using it the wrong way mostly.. Don't get me wrong, I actually have one regularly scheduled manual recording on my S1, because a late night news program repeats most of its content twice, so I record just a chunk of it.

There is I believe *one* brand of used Tivos that have "Tivo Basic" service.. Read up at Tivo.com what you get, but you get very very basic (no pun intended) service, not even season passes (as far as I remember).

With current Tivos, I believe you'll get the following without subscription -- pause and rewind live TV, plus access your EXISTING recordings.

You could also buy a Tivo off of eBay WITH lifetime subscription. Those are often very expensive, because those of us who value not paying a monthly fee will pay a lot.. (I was one of many who bought a series 3 now because of a recently-ended short-term offer to "transfer" an existing lifetime subscription for $200).

Anyway -- you still may be able to save money with a Tivo with monthly subscription compared to the cable DVR. Isn't the cable DVR at least $10/month (and of course they REQUIRE digital cable for the cable DVR, which can add $10-$20/month)? Others have shown that after hardware costs, the monthly fee for Tivo can be less than that with a longer commitment.

[timckelley]

(and of course they REQUIRE digital cable for the cable DVR, which can add $10-$20/month)?
Good point. I have analog cable with my TiVo, so that saves me money because the Time Warner DVR requires digital cable.

[hornblowercat]

Oh, and of course now there's the new disadvantage of series 1's. During 3 weeks in March, and 1 week in November, if you do manual recordings, you have to adjust the times by 1 hour to account for lack of accurate daylight savings time rules. (Uncle Sam's recent DST changes were not deployed to series 1.)


Why even mention that? timckelley, your on every thread that talks about the DST thing. The OP doesn't need to know about support on something he isn't going to purchase. Enough already.

[timckelley]

Why even mention that? timckelley, your on every thread that talks about the DST thing. The OP doesn't need to know about support on something he isn't going to purchase. Enough already.

, and then in the future if I had to reduce expenses further by NOT renewing my TiVo subscription, I needed to know that I could still use he TiVo, at least for pausing and rewinding live TV and hopefully, after going to TV Guide’s web site for programming info, still be able to at least schedule manual recordings.I mentioned it because he's interested in being able to do manual recordings without a sub. One of the few ways to do that is to buy a series 1. If he buys a series 1, he really should be informed about the DST problem, and not find out after he's already bought it.

Posting about that here is very appropriate. I certainly did not dwell on the subject here and only mentioned the minimum amount for him to be informed. He may not be seeing the other DST threads... especially considering his low post count, he may well not be aware, but if he buys a series 1, he should be made aware.

[hornblowercat]

I mentioned it because he's interested in being able to do manual recordings without a sub. One of the few ways to do that is to buy a series 1. If he buys a series 1, he really should be informed about the DST problem, and not find out after he's already bought it.

Posting about that here is very appropriate. I certainly did not dwell on the subject here and only mentioned the minimum amount for him to be informed. He may not be seeing the other DST threads... especially considering his low post count, he may well not be aware, but if he buys a series 1, he should be made aware.

My point is why would anybody buy a Series 1 in the first place? While it's nice to have TiVo interface, a cable dual recording capability. It was the only reason I put up with the SA 8300 until the S3 came out.

But I will take your word for it and accept that people still buy S1. I just don't see the sense to it. :)

[timckelley]

I bought a S1 way after the S2s were out (about 2 years ago). I bought it as a way to have something I could use without subscribing, which sort of sounds like what the OP is looking for. Also, S1s are still being sold on ebay, and people are buying them. A quick ebay search shows at least 25 of them for sale.

I admit that after a year, I decided the savings wasn't worth it, so I subscribed.

[Stanley Rohner]

Personally, i don't mind products that require subscription services... otherwise i wouldn't have a cell phone, or a phone at all... my cable modem would then be useless because i wouldn't be subscribing to the isp... and tivo is worth subscribing to in my opinion.. well worth it! and since i payed up front for 3 years, i don't need to even worry about a monthly subscription, for 3 years at least... some of my wife's family has tivo and i knew i would be hanging on to it for more than a year...

Personally, i don't mind products that require a subscription services..

Cell phone service fee is service fee to use the wireless phone network anywhere in the US that my cell phone provider has service.

DIRECTV service fee is for the 200+ or channels channels I receive.

High speed Internet service fee from COMCAST is a fee to bring high speed internet service to my home.

TiVo service fee is a fee required to be able to use a device you bought at the store to record TV shows :confused: Fee to be able to press the record button on the thing ? :confused:

I'm sure someone will jump in and say - TiVo Fee is for the guide service and all the great software updates. :rolleyes:

When I buy a computer they don't require you to pay a monthly fee to use the mouse and the keyboard. When I install the operating system on the computer Microsoft doesn't charge me a monthly fee to update the software.

[atmuscarella]

Originally Posted by Stanley Rohner
When I buy a computer they don't require you to pay a monthly fee to use the mouse and the keyboard. When I install the operating system on the computer Microsoft doesn't charge me a monthly fee to update the software.Yes but Microsoft is making a profit. TiVo has to somehow do the same - they can not have large quarterly losses forever. It appears they are trying to develop other revenue sources (Amazon Unbox, etc.) but until then we either have to pay high prices for the DVRs or a subscription fee or maybe both or TiVo will go broke.

To be honest the total cost of ownership for a Series 2 TiVo seems like a deal to me, but that is a personal opinion.

Thanks,

[ZeoTiVo]

When I buy a computer they don't require you to pay a monthly fee to use the mouse and the keyboard. When I install the operating system on the computer Microsoft doesn't charge me a monthly fee to update the software.
have you noticed the price tag for the XP or Vista upgrade. have you noticed the hoops MS is making people jump to make sure they pay for an original OS and then the upgrades. Same kind of thing excpet the upgrade is optional on a PC and you simply pay at upgrade time. MS did have some month to month schemesand some large businesses still use that subscription idea.

[Stanley Rohner]

have you noticed the price tag for the XP or Vista upgrade. have you noticed the hoops MS is making people jump to make sure they pay for an original OS and then the upgrades. Same kind of thing excpet the upgrade is optional on a PC and you simply pay at upgrade time. MS did have some month to month schemesand some large businesses still use that subscription idea.

Yeah, I noticed the price tag for the XP or VISTA upgrade. It's a major change in the way the operating system works. You only pay that upgrade fee once every 3-5 years or so if YOU choose to do it. It's up to YOU to do it if YOU want to. You aren't forced to pay a monthly fee to get a software upgrade. All the updates to the current version of the software your PC currently has are free.

What's wrong with the hoops MS has you go thru to upgrade. The full version is higher priced than the upgrade version. They don't want people to buy the upgrade version without ever having a legal previous version of Windows. What's wrong with protecting themselves ? Can you tell me what this has to do with the monthly TiVo fee discussion ? :confused:

What's a "schemesand" ? Do you even glance at what you typed before you click submit reply ?

[ZeoTiVo]

Yeah, I noticed the price tag for the XP or VISTA upgrade. It's a major change in the way the operating system works. You only pay that upgrade fee once every 3-5 years or so if YOU choose to do it. It's up to YOU to do it if YOU want to. You aren't forced to pay a monthly fee to get a software upgrade. All the updates to the current version of the software your PC currently has are free.
Yes I made the distinction that it was optional myself. Have fun running windows 95. :rolleyes: The reason I made mention of the way MS is making sure you pay for the upgrades is too point out that upgrade pricing is a cery distinct part of their business model.

TiVo is making an appliance, if they are going to support hat appliance as just simply working then they have to make the updates uniform and that means downloading them to all TiVo DVRs. That is part of why TiVo is on a monthly subscription business model. You can try all the analogies you want but at the end of them all a monthly subscription model is what TiVo needs to persue.

oh and I like making you read my typos. Have fun with that. :)

[Stanley Rohner]

Yes I made the distinction that it was optional myself. Have fun running windows 95. :rolleyes: The reason I made mention of the way MS is making sure you pay for the upgrades is too point out that upgrade pricing is a cery distinct part of their business model.

TiVo is making an appliance, if they are going to support hat appliance as just simply working then they have to make the updates uniform and that means downloading them to all TiVo DVRs. That is part of why TiVo is on a monthly subscription business model. You can try all the analogies you want but at the end of them all a monthly subscription model is what TiVo needs to persue.

oh and I like making you read my typos. Have fun with that. :)

I'm not sure what's with the WINDOWS 95 wisecrack and rolleyes. :rolleyes:

I'm sure it's a cery distinct part of their business model. :)

What's up with TiVo supporting a hat appliance ? :)

[atmuscarella]

Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
TiVo is making an appliance, if they are going to support hat appliance as just simply working then they have to make the updates uniform and that means downloading them to all TiVo DVRs. That is part of why TiVo is on a monthly subscription business model. You can try all the analogies you want but at the end of them all a monthly subscription model is what TiVo needs to pursue.I strongly agree that TiVo must maintain uniform software for each model still being supported, however I do not automatically believe this means a subscription mode. The bottom line as I see it, is that TiVo has to generate enough revenue to be profitable. I would agree that a subscription model seems the most likely avenue to profitability but it is not the only one.

Thanks,

[ZeoTiVo]

I'm not sure what's with the WINDOWS 95 wisecrack and rolleyes. :rolleyes:

it was about your statement that Windows upgrades are optional. They certainly are optional but how many of us would wnat to be running windows 95 still?

I strongly agree that TiVo must maintain uniform software for each model still being supported, however I do not automatically believe this means a subscription mode. The bottom line as I see it, is that TiVo has to generate enough revenue to be profitable. I would agree that a subscription model seems the most likely avenue to profitability but it is not the only one.

Thanks,
you are correct but my point was more one of the idea of TiVo making features optional and then paying for them. TiVo would have add in more complexity to be able to turn features on or off and and some features depend on another feature etc.. TiVo tried early on to sell HMO as an optional feature you paid for but they soon realized that was not going to work well as they looked at TiVoToGo needing HMO/MRV feature to be in place. Trying to sell features piecemeal on an appliance like a DVR was not going to work and having a support structure that could deal with S2 DVRs having 6.x and 7.1, 7.2, 7.3, 8.1 etc.. would add significant overhead. So since a monthly subscription was already in place as a revenue model then having all the boxes get the upgrades "at no extra charge" just made sense.

It puts the onus on TiVo inc. to keep the upgrades clean and reduce errors which is a challenge for anybody but there it is. To tie this back to the OP - TiVo inc. is clearly in a business model of a monthly subscription but they also are clearly trying to keep adding value to what you have for that monthly subscription

[psyton]

Have fun running windows 95. :rolleyes:it was about your statement that Windows upgrades are optional. They certainly are optional but how many of us would wnat to be running windows 95 still?The least you can do is make relatively similar comparisons, the S1 isn't 12 years old. Start w/ 2k, about the same age and similarly Windows would be in the "third" series (2k, xp, vista). For win95 to be similar, Tivo would have to be 12 years old and on the series 6 (95, 98, me, 2k, xp, vista).

So in answer to your revised question
They certainly are optional but how many of us would wnat to be running windows 2000 still?I, for one, still have a few machines still running just fine w/ 2k, and still have to target for them.

-- psyton

[ZeoTiVo]

So in answer to your revised question
I, for one, still have a few machines still running just fine w/ 2k, and still have to target for them.

-- psyton
ok then. If you wanted to do something like play the latest video game or do some video editing then upgrading again becomes less optional. The point is mainly that MS can do its business model because people use PCs as large utility devices capable of many things. This keeps upgrades happening and over time MS can just drop support for earlier platforms and tell you to upgrade if need be.
Ask MS to support better gaming on W2K and see what repsonse you would get.


Now sure you can sya that TiVo forces upgrades from S1 to S2 for networking features and to S3 for HD but that is hardware differences and the nature of a Consumer appliance. We also see signs that TiVo is deciding with a lot more rigor around ROI on supporting the S1. The early business planning had those units all shut off by now as everyone moved to the S2 for more features. oops.


so in the end (quicky) analysis TiVo looks to a subscription model and provides a uniform upgrade plan to keep adding value. To some there is no value beyond basic recording features and if so perhaps the TiVo business model is not for them.

[atmuscarella]

Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
It puts the onus on TiVo inc. to keep the upgrades clean and reduce errors which is a challenge for anybody but there it is. To tie this back to the OP - TiVo inc. is clearly in a business model of a monthly subscription but they also are clearly trying to keep adding value to what you have for that monthly subscriptionYes completely agree, I would also add that along with trying to add value to what they are giving us for the monthly subscription they are also trying to generate more revenue from things like Amazon Unbox and advertising, if at some point this revenue equals or exceeds the monthly subscription revenue we could see some changes in the subscription fee revenue model (until then I see no option but subscription fees). As an example it could allow them to offer a reasonably priced box with lower or no subscription fee as a purchase option.

Thanks,