Cablelabs my arse! Time to give up the ruse!

[CheezWiz]

OK,

We now have TivoCast on the S3, soon we will have Amazon Unbox as well.
Obviously Cablelabs has no interest in the delivery of content to the S3 via the Ethernet port.

So, I want my MRV!

From the best I can tell, CableLabs only has domain over digitally delivered content from cable TV anyways, MRV from a series 2 would be content delivered via analog cable and out of their domain. Same with content streamed from our PC's. MRV from the Series 3 for analog cable should be clear of their approval as well.

I also seriously doubt that Cablelabs has any interest in preventing TTG. We have seen the arrival of Cablelabs approved MediaCenter PC CableCard tuners, and nothing keeps you from moving shows off of your MediaCenter PC, so why the clampdown on Tivo? At most, Tivo might need to process a do-not-copy flag, which they already do with TivoCast contenet and I am sure Unbox will be the same.

If the content providers are satisfied that TTG is no infringement, then why would CL's care? I keep seeing people lay the blame on Cablelabs for lack of features and I am sick of it. Until either CableLabs or Tivo OFFICIALLY blame one or the other, drop the CL's slanted blame game. If I have missed such an announcement, please point it out to me and I will gladly eat my words. Please do not point to the EFF article, I read that. It uses the word "suggests" which is not concrete. That article is mostly fluff about other issues with DRM and simply tries to associate the "possible" reason for lack of TTG support to the other issues in their article. At most it confirms my conclusion by stating that "TiVo must first create a set of restrictions that satisfies CableLabs."

I have come to the conclusion that the lack of S3 features is solely due to programming and development resource allocation on the Tivo side of the fence. Sure I love my S3, sure Tivo is great. But this campaign of misinformation to get the heat off of them rubs me the wrong way. The S2 and S3 code base are obviously shared, but the S3 had to branch off to some degree. Time for that branch to continue to grow with an S3 customized MRV and TTG code set. However, I would imagine that Unbox has all their resources allocated at the moment.

[TexasAg]

I have come to the conclusion that the lack of S3 features is solely due to programming and development resource allocation on the Tivo side of the fence.

Since you're psychic, care to give me your guess for the Mega Millions lottery on Friday?

[CheezWiz]

Since you're psychic, care to give me your guess for the Mega Millions lottery on Friday?

I would hardly call deductive reasoning a psychic leap.
And I would kindly ask that you reply to every post on the forum that blames cablelabs with the same sarcastic enthusiasm.

[ah30k]

Cable labs has authority over any device that connects to the cable infrastructure using CableCARDs. If you want TiVo to sell an MRV enabled device that does not include CableCARDs I'd like to see you make that business case.

[TexasAg]

I would hardly call deductive reasoning a psychic leap.
And I would kindly ask that you reply to every post on the forum that blames cablelabs with the same sarcastic enthusiasm.

Since Tivo folks here have said that CableLabs was keeping MRV and TTG tied up, I think my "deductive reasoning" is a little stronger.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=315850

[ah30k]

So many points to counter..
I also seriously doubt that Cablelabs has any interest in preventing TTG. They do have interest because they want to protect protected content. They do not want protected content out on the loose on the internet, therefore -> interest in TTG.

[acvthree]

Cable labs has authority over any device that connects to the cable infrastructure using CableCARDs. If you want TiVo to sell an MRV enabled device that does not include CableCARDs I'd like to see you make that business case.

Is that true for Verizon? Since Verizon doesn't qualify its system through cable labs, then I would think not.

Would cablelabs have any say over MRV of any content downloaded from a Verizon system?

Al

[ah30k]

If the content providers are satisfied that TTG is no infringement, then why would CL's care? =Who says content providers are satisfied TTG is not a problem?

[ah30k]

We have seen the arrival of Cablelabs approved MediaCenter PC CableCard tuners, and nothing keeps you from moving shows off of your MediaCenter PCAre you sure about this? I know that content must be encrypted by WDRM. I doubt you could e-mail me a copy of a show you recorded that I can use free and clear.

[TexasAg]

Is that true for Verizon? Since Verizon doesn't qualify its system through cable labs, then I would think not.

Verizon's DVRs are made for Verizon by Motorola, and Verizon chooses to distribute them for use on their own network. I don't believe Verizon needs CableLabs' approval for anything related to their DVR, including the multi-room functionality on the Mototola boxes.

CableLabs certification simply means that Verizon and others cannot refuse to give you CableCards for your certified device.

[CheezWiz]

Since Tivo folks here have said that CableLabs was keeping MRV and TTG tied up, I think my "deductive reasoning" is a little stronger.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=315850

" This sort of functionality is not supported by any CableCard product today"

That post is from 9/2006 and is no longer accurate.

Other systems have this functionality, so why not Tivo?

Again, Tivo has failed to come up with the system that passes CableLabs specs. They need to get to work.

Please note that in my original post I state "Until either CableLabs or Tivo OFFICIALLY blame one or the other." I do not consider posts here as official. If it were a press release, that would be official.

[CheezWiz]

Cable labs has authority over any device that connects to the cable infrastructure using CableCARDs. If you want TiVo to sell an MRV enabled device that does not include CableCARDs I'd like to see you make that business case.

So did CableLabs have to give their blessing to TivoCast? Do they have to approve Amazon Unboxed? If so, that would be a bit evil since Unbox will directly compete with Cable TV's VOD and PPV services. I think everyone is under the impression that CableLabs has more regulatory authority over the devices that use them than is the actual case.

Have Media Center PC's been castrated by the use of CableCard tuners?

[TexasAg]

"This sort of functionality is not supported by any CableCard product today"

That post is from 9/2006 and is no longer accurate.

Other systems have this functionality, so why not Tivo?

See my post above. Some systems like Verizon don't need CableLabs approval and can offer it now. To require the cable companies to provide CableCards to the S3s, Tivo must get CableLabs approval.

Other companies have gotten approval already, and Tivo is currently trying to.

Again, Tivo has failed to come up with the system that passes CableLabs specs. They need to get to work.

Well, I guess they were just sitting around doing nothing. Oh wait, they weren't. TivoPony has said multiple times they're working on it. :rolleyes:

So did CableLabs have to give their blessing to TivoCast? Do they have to approve Amazon Unboxed? If so, that would be a bit evil since Unbox will directly compete with Cable TV's VOD and PPV services. I think everyone is under the impression that CableLabs has more regulatory authority over the devices that use them than is the actual case.

Have Media Center PC's been castrated by the use of CableCard tuners?

CableLabs has approval over anything to do with protected content. According to TivoPony, Tivo is currently developing MRV and TTG (maybe one or the other) for un-protected content, which is analog cable and unencrypted digital content.

Any content that requires a CableCard (all encrypted digital content) invokes CableLabs' authority.

[CheezWiz]

Who says content providers are satisfied TTG is not a problem?
Every other system that did not meet their approval was sued out of existence.

[CheezWiz]

Are you sure about this? I know that content must be encrypted by WDRM. I doubt you could e-mail me a copy of a show you recorded that I can use free and clear.

Right, exactly! TTG is a protected content as well, that is why it was approved before. If the current protection is not strong enought, then again the blame falls to Tivo, not cablelabs.

There are ways around WDRM just as there are around TTG's, but why is one better than the other in the grand scheme of things? Not sure about that one.

[fergiej]

" This sort of functionality is not supported by any CableCard product today"

That post is from 9/2006 and is no longer accurate.

Other systems have this functionality, so why not Tivo?

Again, Tivo has failed to come up with the system that passes CableLabs specs. They need to get to work.

Please note that in my original post I state "Until either CableLabs or Tivo OFFICIALLY blame one or the other." I do not consider posts here as official. If it were a press release, that would be official.
Please tell me which system that uses CABLECARDS has this functionality. I know of no other cablecard DVR on the market. Please enlighten. Sorry, but I think you are trying too hard here. Either your "deductive reasoning" is right and TiVopony and TiVojerry are baldface lying to us, or you don't have all the facts. I pick TiVo's answer. It's a cablelabs issue and they are working on it.

[TexasAg]

Please note that in my original post I state "Until either CableLabs or Tivo OFFICIALLY blame one or the other." I do not consider posts here as official. If it were a press release, that would be official.

(A) Posts from people at Tivo are good enough for most here.

(B) Tivo and CableLabs aren't going to OFFICIALLY blame each other publicly, esp. Tivo. Tivo must work with CableLabs to get stuff approved. Tivo isn't likely to go running around telling the world that CableLabs can't get things right, etc.

(C) You're not the first (and unfortunately not the last) to come here posting that this is Tivo's fault, you blame Tivo, they aren't doing enough, blah, blah, blah. Guess what - it doesn't help, and it won't get you your MRV and TTG any faster. But hey, if it makes you feel good, go ahead and continue.

[ah30k]

Right, exactly! TTG is a protected content as well, that is why it was approved before. If the current protection is not strong enought, then again the blame falls to Tivo, not cablelabs.If your point is that WDRM MRV is approved and TTG is not therefore TiVo is to blame, then there might be some truth to that. But it is not wholy in TiVo's court either.

[AbMagFab]

So your logic is that if Tivoo has an encryption that they've been using for years, and CableLabs says it's not good enough, that's Tivo's fault? Wow... weird logic.

[fergiej]

TTG was approved before because there were no cablecards involved in the process and Cablelabs had nothing to do with the process. There was really no reason for it to be a problem as anyone with a decent VCR or dvd recorder could get reasonable copies of the content anyway. The protected content they are concerned about here is HD material. Not the SD stuff. Obviously this is new to the S3, not an issue with the S2.

[acvthree]

Verizon's DVRs are made for Verizon by Motorola, and Verizon chooses to distribute them for use on their own network. I don't believe Verizon needs CableLabs' approval for anything related to their DVR, including the multi-room functionality on the Mototola boxes.

CableLabs certification simply means that Verizon and others cannot refuse to give you CableCards for your certified device.

Ok, so I'm still confused about this.

Several in this forum have said that Verizon's use of cable cards is not blessed by cable labs. Tivo has specifically stated that they do not support Verizon because of this.

The Series 3 works great with Verizon, but neither side is obligated to keep it that way.

If Verizon is not following cable labs, why does Tivo have to comply with cable labs for content from Verizon?

I'm not trying to say you are wrong. I'm just VERY confused about this issue and try as I might to ask the questions correctly, the answers I get seem inconsistent.

Al - damned confused, but how is that different from any other time.

[TexasAg]

If Verizon is not following cable labs, why does Tivo have to comply with cable labs for content from Verizon?

I know others here can explain it better, but here goes.

Basically, the rules governing CableCards state that cable providers must provide CableCards to any device that is certified by CableLabs. If a device is not certified by CableLabs, the cable company can legally refuse to provide CableCards for that device. That's why Tivo must get CableLabs certification - the only way to sell the S3 to cable users is to get it certified, since very few cable users would want to pay $650 for a DVR that only receives analog and unencrypted digital content.

The DVRs used by Verizon currently don't require CableCards. Even if they did, Verizon isn't going to refuse to supply CableCards to its own DVRs. But, Verizon could refuse to supply CableCards to the S3 if the S3 wasn't certified.

[eric_mcgovern]

The Original Poster is wrong on so many points...do a bit of searching and you will see that it is CableLABS holding this up, not TiVo. Media Center PC's with a CableCARD are having the same problems TiVo is...but of course since there are a plethora of those available right now, go ahead and get one of those and let us know how it goes...

[srea]

Right, exactly! TTG is a protected content as well, that is why it was approved before. If the current protection is not strong enought, then again the blame falls to Tivo, not cablelabs.

There are ways around WDRM just as there are around TTG's, but why is one better than the other in the grand scheme of things? Not sure about that one.

Keep in mind that the previous TTG was for digitized analog video. Now that the video is digitally decrypted and each copy is "perfect", protection is much more of an issue because there is no degradation.

[GoHokies!]

Other systems have this functionality, so why not Tivo?
What magical, mythical system would that be so that I can go buy several? :rolleyes:

[dt_dc]

Please note that in my original post I state "Until either CableLabs or Tivo OFFICIALLY blame one or the other." I do not consider posts here as official. If it were a press release, that would be official.Speaking of CableLabs approval ...

CableLabs requires approval of any press releases referencing CableLabs:http://www.cablelabs.com/news/pr_policy.html

CableLabs Press Release Policy

Review: All press releases related to or referencing CableLabs®, its projects, CableLabs’ certified/qualified products, CableLabs’ non-certified/qualified products, products based on CableLabs’ specifications, or quoting CableLabs employees MUST be reviewed 7 working days prior to their release by:

Mike Schwartz
SVP, Communications
CableLabs®Dunno if a press release blaming CableLabs for lack of approval would meet CableLabs approval. :p

[rtm242]

CableLabs requires approval of any press releases referencing CableLab

Wonder if they need to approve this thread? :rolleyes:

[CheezWiz]

Speaking of CableLabs approval ...

CableLabs requires approval of any press releases referencing CableLabs:Dunno if a press release blaming CableLabs for lack of approval would meet CableLabs approval. :p

That is just WAY too funny! Like the clause in Microsoft Frontpage's EULA that stated the product could not be used to create a web page that spoke poorly of Microsoft..

[CheezWiz]

What magical, mythical system would that be so that I can go buy several? :rolleyes:

I am primarily using the approval of CC equipped Tuners for Media Center PC's.

Tangent>>
Does Cable Labs have to approve the installation of ITunes on your PC? It allows you to stream content to other computers... MediaCenter PC's can stream to XBox and other systems, did CableLabs approve that too? Ah crap, I want to run FireFox, I hope that CableLabs does not mind!

The Tivo is just a media center PC in a nice package with custom software.
If cablelabs has such thumb press control over the system that uses it, then what does a CableCard solve?

I just think CableLabs is being used as the fall guy and I am sick of it.

From what I have read, TTG of Digitally delivered content is the only jurisdiction they have on the software side of things. But S2->S3 and S3->S2(analog) MRV as well as PC->S3 should be of no concern to CableLabs.

If Unbox and TivoCast did require their approval, then there should be some paperwork somewhere showing that.. But I seriously doubt it did.

I am a Tivo Owner as well as Stock Holder, I am not trying to bash them, but I am saying let the responsibilities fall to the proper party. I am just sick of the FanBoy response of "Blame it on CableLabs."

[CheezWiz]

I know others here can explain it better, but here goes.

Basically, the rules governing CableCards state that cable providers must provide CableCards to any device that is certified by CableLabs. If a device is not certified by CableLabs, the cable company can legally refuse to provide CableCards for that device. That's why Tivo must get CableLabs certification - the only way to sell the S3 to cable users is to get it certified, since very few cable users would want to pay $650 for a DVR that only receives analog and unencrypted digital content.

The DVRs used by Verizon currently don't require CableCards. Even if they did, Verizon isn't going to refuse to supply CableCards to its own DVRs. But, Verizon could refuse to supply CableCards to the S3 if the S3 wasn't certified.

That is a perfectly clear explanation.

[davecramer74]

The Original Poster is wrong on so many points...do a bit of searching and you will see that it is CableLABS holding this up, not TiVo. Media Center PC's with a CableCARD are having the same problems TiVo is.

umm, cable labs isnt holding media pc's up. here's a smoking one u can order right now:

http://www.velocitymicro.com/wizard.php?iid=96

tivo is the issue, not cable labs.

[CheezWiz]

So your logic is that if Tivoo has an encryption that they've been using for years, and CableLabs says it's not good enough, that's Tivo's fault? Wow... weird logic.

I am saying that CableLabs must have had guidelines in place and Tivo should have known ahead of time if their method would or would not get approval.

I guess my analogy would be that if you know the government requires you to build a car that has seat belts in it before it can be sold, but you choose to build a car without seat belts, then you have no reason to blame the government because you cannot sell the cars..

[jcaudle]

It seems silly to me that you can move unencrypted digital and analog cable shows around using cable boxes and series 2 tivos and you can't with a cable card. The logic just isn't there. The only difference is that with a standalone tivo, you only have the one tuner. The content isn't going to be any better just because you might be able to transfer it to an S3.

[lessd]

umm, cable labs isnt holding media pc's up. here's a smoking one u can order right now:

http://www.velocitymicro.com/wizard.php?iid=96

tivo is the issue, not cable labs.

$2000 wow but it still did not say this box could move HD content around the home.

TiVo said that Cable Labs had never considered this TiVo type of equipment for MRV why, without evidence, would anybody believe anything else. TiVo does not have a history of lying to us, do you think they are starting now ? SI is set up for MRV, on a Series 2 it reads a,a,a on the Series 3 it reads i,i,i, if TiVo never intended to put MRV in the product why put that line in SI screen on the Series 3 ?

[davecramer74]

$2000 wow but it still did not say this box could move HD content around the home.


its a pc running windows media center and records. Why wouldnt you be able to? I know for me, my xbox would be able to view everything. Any pc would be able to view it.

[ah30k]

$2000 wow but it still did not say this box could move HD content around the home.Add a digital cable tuner and HDCP enabled video card and you will quickly get over $2500.

[davecramer74]

well its a computer. not just a DVR. either, way looks pretty sweet to me.

[eric_mcgovern]

its a pc running windows media center and records. Why wouldnt you be able to? I know for me, my xbox would be able to view everything. Any pc would be able to view it.

Go ahead and drop the dough on it and let us know how it all works out when you try moving content around the home...

[CheezWiz]

Keep in mind that the previous TTG was for digitized analog video. Now that the video is digitally decrypted and each copy is "perfect", protection is much more of an issue because there is no degradation.


Only for Digital Channels... The first 78 channels of my CTV system are analog..

[davecramer74]

Go ahead and drop the dough on it and let us know how it all works out when you try moving content around the home...

well i only have 2 tv's. So i know it will work with my situation and my xbox360. Not really anywhere i would want to move it besides those 2. I guess if i wanted to put it on my laptop? ill wait for the other vendors to put some competition out there. Im sure those prices will drop in half.

[ah30k]

well its a computer. not just a DVR. either, way looks pretty sweet to me.To me (just my opinion) the device should be an entertainment center for the family room / entertainment center or a PC, not both. In most home entertainment environments, a device like this would never be used for spreadsheets, word processing, photo editing, movie editing or even web browsing for that matter. Perhaps under rare circumstances e-mail, but even then rarely. A dedicated PC is much more user friendly for traditional PC applications.

[CheezWiz]

Please tell me which system that uses CABLECARDS has this functionality. I know of no other cablecard DVR on the market. Please enlighten. Sorry, but I think you are trying too hard here. Either your "deductive reasoning" is right and TiVopony and TiVojerry are baldface lying to us, or you don't have all the facts. I pick TiVo's answer. It's a cablelabs issue and they are working on it.

From CableLabs own web site:
2007 CES Featured Cable's Two-Way Future; High-Definition Cable Content Now Available on PCs
Digeo—Exhibited a Moxi™ multi-room DVR with CableCARD interface
Motorola—Displayed a line of interactive set-top boxes, including OCAP. Comcast expanded its purchase agreement for a number of OCAP-based set tops including Motorola's “Follow Me TV” multi-room DVR technology.
http://www.cablelabs.com/news/pr/2007/07_pr_ces_012407.html

Motorola's DCH3416 M-Card-enabled HD DVR
http://www.engadget.com/2007/02/02/motorolas-dch3416-m-card-enabled-hd-dvr/

Wow! This looks cool....

Digeo is taking advantage of the ruling with one product called a Moxi Multi-Room Recorder that records video (including high definition), audio and photos to a hard drive like a generic digital media recorder (DMR) and then redistributes that programming to thin-client boxes, called Moxi Mates, located in other rooms in the home.
http://www.twice.com/article/CA6410712.html


I think that come end of the year, our S3's may be left in the dust when it comes to features.. But I have to say that without Seasons Pass and other patented Tivo features, they still would suck!

[maharg18]

Cheezwiz, neither one of those products is even on the market yet! (And I'm sure the DCH3416 will probably be crippled by the cable co's)

[lessd]

its a pc running windows media center and records. Why wouldnt you be able to? I know for me, my xbox would be able to view everything. Any pc would be able to view it.

You may be able to move HD content from Computer to Computer on a wireless home network but not from a Single Computer to two or more HDTVs unless you put one of those $2000 rigs on each HDTV. My point was not the $2000-$2500 this Media Center may cost, but it is not realistic to compare it to a Series 3. This BOX or PC or whatever it is, is not competition for a $650 Series 3. The number of Series 3 sales lost to that BOX will be small.

[lombard]

its a pc running windows media center and records. Why wouldnt you be able to? I know for me, my xbox would be able to view everything. Any pc would be able to view it.

The biggie here is DRM and copy restrictions. Just because the PC can record the encrypted digital streams doesn't mean it'll be allowed to distribute those files to any other computers/xboxes on the network.

And therein lies the problem for TiVo. It's not just CableLabs, but the content providers as well. Every show TiVo records will have it's own limitations on what's allowed...some will allow sharing, some won't. It's a good recipe for consumer confusion. "Why won't my TiVo let me share show x to my other TiVo?" "It worked just fine for show y yesterday!" And that's just streaming the file to another TiVo. When you start to factor in making copies (Tivo-to-go) it just gets worse.

I would think it would be easier to get approval to stream, but not copy shows. The big issue there is that you still need some sort of DRM to protect the content. TiVo uses it's own DRM, and last I heard CableLabs hasn't approved it.

Now maybe TiVo could license one of the approved DRM schemes, but that would cost them money (which they don't have a lot of) and headaches in getting all their products to work with it. Seems to me the better solution would be to get CableLabs to approve their DRM, and I'd bet that's what they're working on.

[davecramer74]

You may be able to move HD content from Computer to Computer on a wireless home network but not from a Single Computer to two or more HDTVs unless you put one of those $2000 rigs on each HDTV.

you could plug any computer into your hdtv and display anything you recorded from your media center pc. If i can rip files off my motorola 3416 via firewire to my pc, why couldnt i do it from pc to pc? You dont need to put a 2000 system on each one. Share the files out. Like now i can play movies off my xp pc from my xbox360 and vice versa.

I wasnt trying to compare it to an S3. i was just pointing out the solution is out there. I think its pretty sweet personally. But im a tech and have built pc's for the last 10 years. So any pc goodies gets me excited.

To me (just my opinion) the device should be an entertainment center for the family room / entertainment center or a PC, not both. In most home entertainment environments, a device like this would never be used for spreadsheets, word processing, photo editing, movie editing or even web browsing for that matter.

Well for me, i have an xbox360 on componant. a moto dvr hooked up via hdmi and an xp pc hooked up via dvi. I play vids on my pc, surf the web from the couch and play movies off it.

[Redux]

device should be an entertainment center for the family room / entertainment center or a PC, not bothWell, flexibilty is nice. One of my Mac minis is pure media center (with a huge home network of hard drives at its disposal via automatic aliases), but I keep a wireless keyboard and mouse in the movie room and it's handy to be able to access a pretty useful computer on whim, from time to time.

If someone accidentally leaves it in "computer" mode, just hitting play on the remote control turns it into a media center again.

[GoHokies!]

Here's the deal on this (as best I can remember it from September when it came out).

Tivo's story was basically that they had submitted to Cable Labs their protection scheme and had not yet received approval. Rather than spend the time and money (further delaying the S3) programming some of the solutions talked about in here until they knew from Cable Labs that either a) TTG and MRV were approved as is, or b)Changes X, Y and Z were required, they were going to just disable that whole module.

Any of that time and money would have been wasted had CL come back and said that Tivo was good to go (or that instead of the Change X that Tivo had programmed, Change Z was going to be required instead).

Based on the CEO's comments at CES, I believe that "as is" TTG/MRV were not approved by CL, but that Tivo was given guidelines for what was and wasn't allowed and that Tivo is working on implementing and testing such a solution now. Part of that approval from CL may have been the activation of TivoCast, which is why we're just now seeing that activated.

Could Tivo have handled things better? Maybe if they had submitted TTG/MRV earlier, they could have known what CL was going to require and coded that up sooner, rather than now. I'd like to think that there was a good reason that it had to wait this long, but I doubt that any of us will know any of the facts to make that decision.

My $0.02

[dt_dc]

Based on the CEO's comments at CES, I believe that "as is" TTG/MRV were not approved by CL, but that Tivo was given guidelines for what was and wasn't allowed and that Tivo is working on implementing and testing such a solution now.Again, CableLabs requirements / guidelines aren't any big mystery ... they're right here:
http://www.cablelabs.com/udcp/downloads/DFAST_Tech_License.pdfPart of that approval from CL may have been the activation of TivoCast, which is why we're just now seeing that activated.TivoCast functionality does not / would not require CableLabs approval.

My impression is that Tivo submitted (but has not recieved approval for) a digital output protection technology (required for moving any encrypted digital cable content off the S3) to CableLabs. They are now implementing MRV/TTG features that do not require CableLabs approval and are alowable under the existing licensing agreement (moving any content to the S3, moving analog or unencrypted digital content off the S3). TBD if they will ever get CableLabs approval for moving encrypted digital content off the box.

But ... that's just me.

[BigMaxie]

OK,

I have come to the conclusion that the lack of S3 features is solely due to programming and development resource allocation on the Tivo side of the fence. Sure I love my S3, sure Tivo is great. But this campaign of misinformation to get the heat off of them rubs me the wrong way. The S2 and S3 code base are obviously shared, but the S3 had to branch off to some degree. Time for that branch to continue to grow with an S3 customized MRV and TTG code set. However, I would imagine that Unbox has all their resources allocated at the moment.

It appears to me that the OP simply has not read the many many threads on this subject. To think that this is some kind of "campaign of misinformation" is laughable. It seems like every week I read something of this nature. We all know and understand the problem. Why does it have to be rehashed constantly?

Note: I am new to posting but I have been reading this thread for sometime now.

[CheezWiz]

Cheezwiz, neither one of those products is even on the market yet! (And I'm sure the DCH3416 will probably be crippled by the cable co's)

But they are being announced as already being CableLabs approved since they are on CableLabs own website.

[davecramer74]

I know of no other cablecard DVR on the market. Please enlighten

sony has one thats been out longer than the S3 dont they?

[BigMaxie]

sony has one thats been out longer than the S3 dont they?


You just answered a question with a question. :confused:

If you know the answer please provide a link. :)

[davecramer74]

sorry im at work and had to go do something so couldnt look it up. Yes sony has a dvr out, heres one on ebay. If i recall there are 2 models.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sony-DHG-HDD250-HD-HDMI-Digital-Video-Recorder-DVR_W0QQitemZ200083148023QQihZ010QQcategoryZ79865QQrdZ1QQcmd ZViewItem

[lessd]

sorry im at work and had to go do something so couldnt look it up. Yes sony has a dvr out, heres one on ebay. If i recall there are 2 models.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sony-DHG-HDD250-HD-HDMI-Digital-Video-Recorder-DVR_W0QQitemZ200083148023QQihZ010QQcategoryZ79865QQrdZ1QQcmd ZViewItem

I looked at the spec, where does it say you have MRV with this single tuner HD recorder

[aaronwt]

I looked at the spec, where does it say you have MRV with this single tuner HD recorder

They don't even make that any more do they? It came out in late 2004. One tuner and very expensive.

[Leo_N]

So did CableLabs have to give their blessing to TivoCast? Do they have to approve Amazon Unboxed? If so, that would be a bit evil since Unbox will directly compete with Cable TV's VOD and PPV services. I think everyone is under the impression that CableLabs has more regulatory authority over the devices that use them than is the actual case.

Have Media Center PC's been castrated by the use of CableCard tuners?

You have to also remember that Windows Vista is going to be required for cablecard tuners. And Vista is locked down pretty tight DRM-wise. Not to say that no one will ever be able to hack it (it'll probably happen quickly.)

[CheezWiz]

You have to also remember that Windows Vista is going to be required for cablecard tuners. And Vista is locked down pretty tight DRM-wise. Not to say that no one will ever be able to hack it (it'll probably happen quickly.)

But there are Media Center Extenders that will allow you to stream content to other TV's...

[CheezWiz]

OK, so does everyone really think that CableLabs had to "Approve" unbox video downloads? Did they have to "Approve" this home movie crap?

No...!

Tivo, it is time to give us AT LEAST the ability to stream content TO our S3's... Cable Labs has no jurisdiction over that. Time to enable this ability and give up the CableLabs blame game...

There is no reason for us to not be able to stream TO the S3 from Tivo Desktop, or PyTivo, or Tivo.net.... Gee when money is involved, the features seem to roll out quick huh?

Frustrated....

[Maeglin]

You have to also remember that Windows Vista is going to be required for cablecard tuners. And Vista is locked down pretty tight DRM-wise. Not to say that no one will ever be able to hack it (it'll probably happen quickly.)
Two words: Worst case

After all, if Vista were a requirement for TTG with encrypted cable content, it would have to be renamed to TTGN (TiVo To Go Nowhere). After Vista down-resing any "protected" content that comes across its path, you'll likely get better quality sticking with XP and doing an analog transfer with a video capture card.

As for there being an obvious difference to most people between "video downloads" and "video transfer", well... I just wont go there. Oops, too late.

Whether it's from PC to TiVo, TiVo to PC or TiVo to TiVo, it's still the same bloody mechanism (transfer of video across a local network) and currently it appears there's only one all-or-nothing switch for it in the code. To separate any part of that out takes coding effort... effort that TiVo ideally wouldn't have to do (and were probably waiting to see if they'd have to do it or not), and is not going to be done instantly. Not to mention the fact that they would have to put code in there to limit some transfers from S3 to S2 boxes in any case, because the latter would simply have no idea what to do with HD content.

The 8.1 update was primarily to get S3s up to par with S2s, minus video transfer. It's already been officially stated that such transfers (probably with limitations) are going to be available within the year. In the meantime, CheezWiz, you can shut the **** up about it... nothing you say will speed things up.

Incidentally, TiVo boxes don't stream anything video-related over a network. They make copies.

[MichaelK]

....

There is no reason for us to not be able to stream TO the S3 from Tivo Desktop, or PyTivo, or Tivo.net.... Gee when money is involved, the features seem to roll out quick huh?

Frustrated....

Here's my OPINION-

Tivocast, tivo.net, MRV all WORK right now on the S3 (the i,i,i screen is in there) but disabled (hence the i,i,i instead of a,a,a).

I believe that cablelabs has told tivo that they will not approve tivo's current PACKAGE of TTG/MRV/Tivoguard DRM. I don't think any official request has been made by Tivo for the ENTIRE package (because there are legal limits on the length of time cablelabs has to approve and likely they would have been exceeded). I suspect that the reliance on MS directvshow for TTG is a major problem that even tivo realizes and so they wont officially ask for the WHOLE PACAKAGE until Tivoguard II is ready that will hook into Vista's DRM.

I'll chalk that up to cablelabs wont approve.

But here's the part that is Tivo's fault.

Tivo can (and apparently is working on) separating all the parts. Cablelabs TWICE now has said that they are NOT working with Tivo on approving TTG- so it seems that has been severed so that Tivo can get rid of that directshow flaw and once they figure out how to hook into vista they will apply for TTG. Also from Jim Denny's (sp?) comments at CES it seems that tivo is in the midst of creating separate paths /feature sets for digital cable content compared to analog or digital OTA. THis is all perfectly reasonable.

What I find to be tivo's fault and unreasonable is the speed at which they are moving. When I watch pipikin whip out a more featured version of tivodesketop 2.4's transcode to tivo feature in the guise of tivo.net in a matte of days. Or I watch Doug whip out unbox on tivo in a matter of days I do honestly just shake my head and wonder what the hell takes tivo so long.

Does anyone know what a,a,a or i,i,i even means? Presumably it's 3 different switches - why can't the tivo come back switch get flipped on so that at least we can use tivo.net or MRV TO the s3 from s2's? Make a patch so that the S3 cant send content out but let it all in now today. I don't understand what the holdup is there. Then worry about the baby steps of MRV OFF the s3 to other devices.

[MichaelK]

you could plug any computer into your hdtv and display anything you recorded from your media center pc. If i can rip files off my motorola 3416 via firewire to my pc, why couldnt i do it from pc to pc? You dont need to put a 2000 system on each one. Share the files out. Like now i can play movies off my xp pc from my xbox360 and vice versa.
....


good luck with getting anything protected by cablecard off a vista DRM machine to something not vista. I dont think it's going to happen. You can get windows or real DRM protected content STREAMED but you aren't going to be able to copy anything (until the hackers figure it out and that might take a few months and will never be "approved" ). If it's marked as copy at will than maybe but nothign marked as copy once or copy never is going to work (key words- untill the hackers figure it out). That's the whole point of Vista and cablelabs only approving on vista and not xp.

[MichaelK]

But there are Media Center Extenders that will allow you to stream content to other TV's...


streamed not copied.

To these media people thats a difference.


(and another stumblign block for tivo- they COPY MRV content as opposed to stream it or even MOVE it)

[MichaelK]

...

Whether it's from PC to TiVo, TiVo to PC or TiVo to TiVo, it's still the same bloody mechanism (transfer of video across a local network) and currently it appears there's only one all-or-nothing switch for it in the code. To separate any part of that out takes coding effort... effort that TiVo ideally wouldn't have to do (and were probably waiting to see if they'd have to do it or not), and is not going to be done instantly. Not to mention the fact that they would have to put code in there to limit some transfers from S3 to S2 boxes in any case, because the latter would simply have no idea what to do with HD content.....


heads up- and the WEIRD thing- is that there are apparently THREE differnt protocols to get content on to the tivo.

Tivocast
MRV
pc to tivo (tivo.net)

It appears they can turn on the switch for Tivocast by itslef. So I think it's legit to ask why they cant turn on the tivo.net type switch without MRV.

What's the point of there being 3 i's or 3 a's if they are all always the same? What do those 3 switches do? (I have no clue- does anyone?)

It would take time and code and effort to do that- But it's been around a YEAR now since the S3 got it's original approval from cablelabs without MRV/TTG. I'm not a tivo basher but I think a year to come up with the code to enable some of the features without the problem features is not an unreasonably short period of time.

[CheezWiz]

In the meantime, CheezWiz, you can shut the **** up about it... nothing you say will speed things up.

I will when it is enabled... EOS.

[Maeglin]

heads up- and the WEIRD thing- is that there are apparently THREE differnt protocols to get content on to the tivo.

Tivocast
MRV
pc to tivo (tivo.net)
My point was including only those things where one end discovers the other end on the network, and discovered machines show up as such in the Now Playing list. I don't know about TTCB as I've never used it before, but TiVoCast certainly doesn't work that way, and I suspect that if TiVo Desktop had the same UI as the box itself then it would work that way (it does at least do the discovery of the box and its contents before anything is transferred).

In that sense, I can't see MRV, TTG (TTGN on Vista) and TTCB being very different in concept. They're probably using (at least most of) the exact same code on the TiVo box, too, which would be where the complications may come in with separating them.

What's the point of there being 3 i's or 3 a's if they are all always the same? What do those 3 switches do? (I have no clue- does anyone?)
My guess would be one each for MRV, TTG and TTCB. If that's the case, then it would seem that at least the configuration is set up for separating them, if not the actual code.

As for what's setting them all to be the same thing, that would be a change that's required on TiVo's servers. Considering how long it's taking them to fix the account management portion of the website (the billing part, anyway), l don't see this moving any faster on that end.

[CheezWiz]

streamed not copied.

To these media people thats a difference.


(and another stumblign block for tivo- they COPY MRV content as opposed to stream it or even MOVE it)


Yes, that is true. Not only that, but according to CL's specs, the IP traffic carrying the data must be protected as well. That spec is referenced by one of the CableLabs approved MRV systems I linked to earlier in this thread.

The ability to stream content from an S3 WILL be some major code work. I think most of us understand that.

As you and many have suggested, time to allow us to get content to the S3. It has been long enough. It is clear that Cable Labs has no jurisdiction over that ability or the right to cancel certification for enabling it.

It is stupid for me to have to keep an S2 in my living room and switch between the two...

[MichaelK]

My point was including only those things where one end discovers the other end on the network, and discovered machines show up as such in the Now Playing list. I don't know about TTCB as I've never used it before, but TiVoCast certainly doesn't work that way, and I suspect that if TiVo Desktop had the same UI as the box itself then it would work that way (it does at least do the discovery of the box and its contents before anything is transferred).
....

check out hte tivo.net thread.

With Tivo.net running (the TTCB protocol) on a pc the tivo "discovers" the pc video server and it shows up int he NPL just like a tivo with MRV. But they apparently are 2 different protocols/standards/methods (unsure of what the right term would be). So you could allow the TTCB but not MRV.

[MichaelK]

...

My guess would be one each for MRV, TTG and TTCB. If that's the case, then it would seem that at least the configuration is set up for separating them, if not the actual code.

As for what's setting them all to be the same thing, that would be a change that's required on TiVo's servers. Considering how long it's taking them to fix the account management portion of the website (the billing part, anyway), l don't see this moving any faster on that end.

I dont see them moving any faster either- but that's exactly my point- they ARE SLOW as molasses.

Doug is now unemployed- give him a 10k contract and remote access to the tivo mothership and he'll make the change in 4 hours from his House on the Jersey Shore (I'm not Dougs agent or anythign so maybe he want's more than 10k- LOL). Everyone would be happy.

[Maeglin]

With Tivo.net running (the TTCB protocol) on a pc the tivo "discovers" the pc video server and it shows up int he NPL just like a tivo with MRV. But they apparently are 2 different protocols/standards/methods (unsure of what the right term would be). So you could allow the TTCB but not MRV.
Interesting... since that thread is up to 40 pages now and I can't seem to narrow things down with advanced searching, has it been confirmed anywhere that it works with an S3? If so, then the argument that they're that different would make more sense (I would also be wondering what all the whining about still not having that functionality is about). Otherwise, he only beat the next version of TiVo Desktop to the punch as far as transcoding video to be sent to the box, and nothing more.

At least, compared to TiVo Desktop, Tivo.net can be run on a Linux box via Mono... the only computers in my house that are up 24/7 are running that.

[MichaelK]

Interesting... since that thread is up to 40 pages now and I can't seem to narrow things down with advanced searching, has it been confirmed anywhere that it works with an S3? If so, then the argument that they're that different would make more sense (I would also be wondering what all the whining about still not having that functionality is about). ...

it won't work on a normal unhacked S3. Hence the "whining".

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4870163&&#post4870163 - read through that conversation and you can see some things get enabled and work with a setting of a,a,a

But you can still confirm the protocols are different yourself by reading the tivo.net thread becasue of some other interactions with S2's and hacked S2's and the tivoserver thingie and all that. They are 2 differnent protocols.

[m_jonis]

Here's the deal on this (as best I can remember it from September when it came out).

Tivo's story was basically that they had submitted to Cable Labs their protection scheme and had not yet received approval. Rather than spend the time and money (further delaying the S3) programming some of the solutions talked about in here until they knew from Cable Labs that either a) TTG and MRV were approved as is, or b)Changes X, Y and Z were required, they were going to just disable that whole module.

Any of that time and money would have been wasted had CL come back and said that Tivo was good to go (or that instead of the Change X that Tivo had programmed, Change Z was going to be required instead).

Based on the CEO's comments at CES, I believe that "as is" TTG/MRV were not approved by CL, but that Tivo was given guidelines for what was and wasn't allowed and that Tivo is working on implementing and testing such a solution now. Part of that approval from CL may have been the activation of TivoCast, which is why we're just now seeing that activated.

Could Tivo have handled things better? Maybe if they had submitted TTG/MRV earlier, they could have known what CL was going to require and coded that up sooner, rather than now. I'd like to think that there was a good reason that it had to wait this long, but I doubt that any of us will know any of the facts to make that decision.

My $0.02

So do we know when Tivo actually submitted TTG and/or MRV to CableLabs for approval? I think I'd seen some conflicting posts on it. Once submitted, they only have 180 days to say "yay" or "nay"? But I thought someone had posted a quote from a Cable Labs guy that basically said Tivo had not even approached them (and this was like a few months after the S3 was shipping).

So I'm not too sure why Tivo didn't submit something right away (at least get the 180 day clock ticking)--assuming the Cable Lab quote was accurate.

[m_jonis]

good luck with getting anything protected by cablecard off a vista DRM machine to something not vista. I dont think it's going to happen. You can get windows or real DRM protected content STREAMED but you aren't going to be able to copy anything (until the hackers figure it out and that might take a few months and will never be "approved" ). If it's marked as copy at will than maybe but nothign marked as copy once or copy never is going to work (key words- untill the hackers figure it out). That's the whole point of Vista and cablelabs only approving on vista and not xp.

Joy. I get to spend another $500 or more upgrading my pc, plus $400 for the OS just so I will be crippled by DRM and not able to do anything? (Oh, and I'll probably have to fork out another $300 for a new LCD monitor that supports HDCP or whatever too).

Basically TTG is as good as dead and any "new" thing will require nasty Vista and it's vile DRM schemes (My opinion of course). Call me Glass half full of muddy water.

[MichaelK]

So do we know when Tivo actually submitted TTG and/or MRV to CableLabs for approval? I think I'd seen some conflicting posts on it. Once submitted, they only have 180 days to say "yay" or "nay"? But I thought someone had posted a quote from a Cable Labs guy that basically said Tivo had not even approached them (and this was like a few months after the S3 was shipping).

So I'm not too sure why Tivo didn't submit something right away (at least get the 180 day clock ticking)--assuming the Cable Lab quote was accurate.

My opinion (take it for what you will)-

Tivo will not (would not) submit for approval until they are (were) reasonably assured that they could get approval. They typically go about things by trying to negotiate with people. So the 180 day denial would be their last ditch effort after they are sure that there was no other way and they would need to burn the bridge.

Examples- 30 second skip is not a default behavior, never ever thought of auto commercial skip, when they went to get their DRM approved by the FCC and the NFL had a fit they changed MRV so you cant move a program until it’s completely recorded in order to get the NFL to buy into their system (so MRV is totally crippled for the 99% of content that isn’t NFL football- just to keep the NFL on board).

Even if they were combative- playing with cablelabs is no fun- look at the fight that the big RICH guns in the DTLA are having with cablelabs and the FCC right now over their DRM. So that's a last ditch effort. (although if the DTLA fight works out quick and clean then maybe tivo rethinks that...)

So they have been in “discussions” with cablelabs for some time. But it’s unclear if they have officially applied.

Reading between the lines it sounds like TTG is not even on the table and it’s hopeless at this stage until tivo can come up with a new (likely locked into vista) system for that. It sounds like MRV may be in the works right now with some tweaking – some comments from CES from Tivo folks said something about working on that but to expect more restrictions on cablecard protected content then what we have today on series2 devices.

[MichaelK]

Joy. I get to spend another $500 or more upgrading my pc, plus $400 for the OS just so I will be crippled by DRM and not able to do anything? (Oh, and I'll probably have to fork out another $300 for a new LCD monitor that supports HDCP or whatever too).

Basically TTG is as good as dead and any "new" thing will require nasty Vista and it's vile DRM schemes (My opinion of course). Call me Glass half full of muddy water.


I'd say your analysis is exactly correct.

Dont' choke on the muddy water....

I guess if we all buy reverse osmosis machines then it wont be so bad....

(Give the Hackers/pirates some time to built one- LOL- vista and it's DRM aren't invincible)


edit- but you can save the 300 bucks on the HDCP enable monitor- so long as you aren't offended by downrezzing... thanks cable... thanks MPAA ... thanks RIAA .... thanks MS....

[HDTiVo]

My impression is that Tivo submitted (but has not recieved approval for) a digital output protection technology (required for moving any encrypted digital cable content off the S3) to CableLabs. They are now implementing MRV/TTG features that do not require CableLabs approval and are alowable under the existing licensing agreement (moving any content to the S3, moving analog or unencrypted digital content off the S3). TBD if they will ever get CableLabs approval for moving encrypted digital content off the box.

But ... that's just me.
TiVo should have realized their system porbably wouldn't go through as is, and prepared in advance for breaking out the functions, which they...

But here's the part that is Tivo's fault.

Tivo can (and apparently is working on) separating all the parts. Cablelabs TWICE now has said that they are NOT working with Tivo on approving TTG- so it seems that has been severed so that Tivo can get rid of that directshow flaw and once they figure out how to hook into vista they will apply for TTG. Also from Jim Denny's (sp?) comments at CES it seems that tivo is in the midst of creating separate paths /feature sets for digital cable content compared to analog or digital OTA. THis is all perfectly reasonable.

What I find to be tivo's fault and unreasonable is the speed at which they are moving. When I watch pipikin whip out a more featured version of tivodesketop 2.4's transcode to tivo feature in the guise of tivo.net in a matte of days. Or I watch Doug whip out unbox on tivo in a matter of days I do honestly just shake my head and wonder what the hell takes tivo so long.
only now are ineptly working on.

Despite talk back in Fall 2005 about working with the Vista/ViiV environment, TiVo has continued to go off on its own instead of taking advantage of joining forces.

And so we have this long drawn out story which may come to conclusions in pieces at unkown points in the future.

[snowjay]

Maybe Tivo is just waiting for Leopard to be released. ;)

[m_jonis]

I'd say your analysis is exactly correct.

Dont' choke on the muddy water....

I guess if we all buy reverse osmosis machines then it wont be so bad....

(Give the Hackers/pirates some time to built one- LOL- vista and it's DRM aren't invincible)


edit- but you can save the 300 bucks on the HDCP enable monitor- so long as you aren't offended by downrezzing... thanks cable... thanks MPAA ... thanks RIAA .... thanks MS....


Yeah, tell me about it. Well, I guess the only good thing is that it saved me $800 or more by NOT buying a Series 3. Instead, spent about $350-400 for a MythTV box and am able to record in HD and do transfers and burn things to DVD. Major PITA to setup and get working, but at least I have my locals in HD and transfers and "TTG" now.

I REALLY wanted a Series 3, but SDV, no MRV and looks like we'll never get TTG killed it for me.

:(

[hornblowercat]

Yeah, tell me about it. Well, I guess the only good thing is that it saved me $800 or more by NOT buying a Series 3. Instead, spent about $350-400 for a MythTV box and am able to record in HD and do transfers and burn things to DVD. Major PITA to setup and get working, but at least I have my locals in HD and transfers and "TTG" now.

I REALLY wanted a Series 3, but SDV, no MRV and looks like we'll never get TTG killed it for me.

:(


Sounds like you really didn't do good research. I've covered these issues so many times I'm not going to rehash it again but there will be MRV, TTG and SDV is not going to make the S3 a paperweight. And if you really did research you would know that the S3 is available now for around 600 bucks.

[GoHokies!]

Sounds like you really didn't do good research. I've covered these issues so many times I'm not going to rehash it again but there will be MRV, TTG and SDV is not going to make the S3 a paperweight. And if you really did research you would know that the S3 is available now for around 600 bucks.
Some people are satisfied with a solution that can only record a few channels, is a major hassle and costs almost as much as the S3.

At least he doesn't have a monthly payment...

[MichaelK]

Yeah, tell me about it. Well, I guess the only good thing is that it saved me $800 or more by NOT buying a Series 3. Instead, spent about $350-400 for a MythTV box and am able to record in HD and do transfers and burn things to DVD. Major PITA to setup and get working, but at least I have my locals in HD and transfers and "TTG" now.

I REALLY wanted a Series 3, but SDV, no MRV and looks like we'll never get TTG killed it for me.

:(


if you are cool without any encrypted digital cable then some kind of media pc seems like a nice way to go.

Unfortunately if you want cabelcard content then you need to cough up the big bucks for the S3 (not as big as day 1 now...). Or the even bigger bucks for a cablelabs approved vista media center.


I'm fairly certain that PC transfers TO the S3 will be enabled in a relatively short period of time (a recent tivo email said as much). I HOPE that MRV for non-cable card content comes along pretty soon too. I'm sure that will happen eventually- it's just a matter of them splitting it from cablecard MRV (which seems like it will take more then just time but some luck to get cablelabs to play nice....).

TTG not sure about. Might be none. Might be like MRV- allowed for unprotected cablecard content. But I'm pretty sure under the current tivo to go system it will never be allowed for cablecard protected content- maybe "TTG for Vista" will get approved. But the plain version today aint gonna happen.

If we can get pc to tivo and MRV for unprotected stuff than I'll be happy personally.

[m_jonis]

Sounds like you really didn't do good research. I've covered these issues so many times I'm not going to rehash it again but there will be MRV, TTG and SDV is not going to make the S3 a paperweight. And if you really did research you would know that the S3 is available now for around 600 bucks.

I was referring to when it first came out. Now it's about $650 or so plus monthly fee.

YOU may feel that SDV won't make it a paperweight, but I live in TW country and already two of our HD channels are SDV only.

And for me, MRV and TTG are important enough that I'm not going to spend that kind of money until the feature is out.

AND, I can do QAM mapping (to my knowledge, S3 still can't do this), so I can actually record a "season" pass.

[m_jonis]

Some people are satisfied with a solution that can only record a few channels, is a major hassle and costs almost as much as the S3.

At least he doesn't have a monthly payment...

You're right. I have a Series 2 for "regular" cable. I wanted HDTV recording abilities. $350-400 is "almost" as much as the initial $800 release of the S3 PLUS monthly fee? (AND that's with a DVD burner, and I also use it as my DVD player).

I can always take the MythTV box and make a regular pc out of it just by slapping Windows on it. Can't say the same for an S3.

Granted, it was a major hassle to setup. I would not recommend it for the faint of heart, but if you only need QAM or OTA (although for another $50 I put in a PVR card and can do STB recording just like the Series 2), and you don't want to worry about obsoleting yourself due to SDV AND you want MRV/TTG, there is a solution that's cheaper.

In a year (or whenever) Tivo releases their "lower end" S3, I may decide that the lower cost is worth the risk of only being able to record local channels (gee, just like I do now).

I own 4 Series 2 Tivo's (one DT) and they're great. The Cable Co "HD DVR" is so unreliable, I really wanted an S3. But the features that *I* deem important aren't there, probably never will be, and aren't worth the current cost of the product to justify the SDV issue at this point.

Not everyone is in the same boat or agrees, but I don't see anyone volunteering to buy me an S3 either.

:)

[hornblowercat]

IYOU may feel that SDV won't make it a paperweight, but I live in TW country and already two of our HD channels are SDV only.

And for me, MRV and TTG are important enough that I'm not going to spend that kind of money until the feature is out.



Just out of curiosity, can you tell me what two HD channels they put on SDV?

[davecramer74]

Hey hornblower, i think they change them by viewing habits.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cable/message/32854

If you read that whole thread, you'll see that he is updating the channel list as they change. Like they removed food, cnnh and HGTV off SDV. Sounds like it depends where u live. Im curious as to how he knows what ones he's not getting. my guess is he has a cable box in another room?

[m_jonis]

A&E HD, and Universal HD. There are some other non-HD ones that are SDV'd as well. Each provider is different. I've heard of some TW places putting ESPN HD on SDV as well as HBO-HD. But not us----yet.

As to how I know which ones I'm not getting, TW has been "fairly" decent as a lot of their providers list on their website a little asterisk next to the channels that you CANNOT get via Cable Card. With the exception of the PPV and VOD channels, all the others that are "non-cable card" are SDV channels.

[MichaelK]

Hey hornblower, i think they change them by viewing habits.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cable/message/32854

If you read that whole thread, you'll see that he is updating the channel list as they change. Like they removed food, cnnh and HGTV off SDV. Sounds like it depends where u live. Im curious as to how he knows what ones he's not getting. my guess is he has a cable box in another room?


in theory that's actually the smartest way to go. If the cable provider notices that certain channels are ALWAYS on then there's no point to wasting an sdv slot on it. So you'd make that a full time channel and move something you think is less watched to sdv.

not sure how flexible the systems are but changing it per headend makes sense depending on that area's viewing habits- but best would actually be to have each node different (if there's 20 people on my street always watching a polich channel then there's no sense in having it be SDV on our node- but maybe the next block has a bunch of folks that like a Chinese channel and the next block likes the italian channel)