Amazon Unbox on Tivo - Series3 HD content, maybe?

[demon]

I imagine that most of us know that TiVo Series3's MPEG video decoder chip supports more than just the MPEG-2 streams that ATSC and QAM provide, and the ones generated by its own MPEG encoder chips - it also supports MPEG4 Part 10 (aka H.264) video content. I know that currently the Series3 is new, and it's not exactly been deployed to a wide audience yet, but with the advent of downloadable video content via Amazon Unbox on TiVo, is there any chance that they'll offer moves in HD quality as part of the Unbox service?

I also have an Xbox360, and there are a few movie downloads available there, but the selection is a bit, shall we say, slim - and the selection of titles actually *in* HD resolution (720p only) is even slimmer. I know it'd take longer to download, but for those who are willing, is there even a chance? Until Blu-Ray/HDDVD hybrid players become (a) practical (i.e., not a half-done deal like the new LG hybrid player) and (b) affordable, I'd like to be able to get recent movies in HD somehow. I'd given up on TimeWarner's HD PPV selection (their movie selection in HD was almost universally made up of movies I'd never heard of and that didn't interest me - not even a little, mostly arthouse fare - as well as being a very short list) before I got the Series3, so that option's right out in my book.

I know that if anyone's actually involved in the Unbox on TiVo beta, they're probably bound by NDAs, but I figured I'd throw the idea out there, in hopes that discussing it might make it happen. You never can tell.

[drew00001]

I'm no expert, but it seems like there are too many barriers to prevent HD movie download. The size of the download is only one of them. The most significant is that Sony owns both the bluray technology and a great deal of the popular movie rights. I expect Sony has great interest in preventing SD and HD download and has been a key contributor to keeping the XBOX and Unbox movie download slim. :rolleyes:

[lawilson2]

More and more people are getting 10-20Mbps connections. I have a 20Mbps connection and I intend to use it, with or without Tivo. I can't believe that they are taking so long to finally offer some downloaded content. TiVoCast sucks; I can see better quality watching those shows online on the provider's website. It actually looks worse on my HDTV.

I have the Xbox 360 and I downloaded a movie to test it out. I like the concept, the HD was right on (Poseidon). If I watched one movie/week, this service would be great for me, but I use Netflix, and I can average 12-18 movies/month, especially in the TV off season. The Xbox 360 with Vista Media Center is a good start with content; I'd like to see more with TiVo, or the 360 may end up being my new cable box.

[SugarBowl]

I believe iTunes makes HD content available for download to Apple Tv.

[ah30k]

I have a 20Mbps connection and I intend to use it, with or without Tivo. Can your connection maintain 20mbps long term? Based upon the Comcast advertisement for their speeds they call it something like a 'boost' for short spurts. I never tested it but I suspect my 15mbps connection might slow down if I am downloading HD content.

[btwyx]

I believe iTunes makes HD content available for download to Apple Tv.I've never seen any HD content from the iTunes store. That's basically the comeptition to unbox and over their they're also eagerly awaiting the arrival of HD content.

HD downloads would be nice, but I'll take good SD downloads. I currently have no PPV options at all, Unbox looks like it could be it.

[yunlin12]

C'mon Unbox! I'm tired of using Blockbuster or Netflix online rental. I hate the pressure of watching my quota of DVD's ecery month, or otherwise having to waste my monthly fees.

[Greeble]

HD movies from unbox would be awesome. Please give this consideration. Also since the mpeg decoder on the Tivo can do these codecs, how about looking into supporting the usb HD-DVD drive for xbox. Imagine the convinience of watching HD-DVDs directly from the TIVO menu with the peanut remote.

[cokyq]

I have been using Blockbuster Online for Blu-Ray rentals. I return the BDs to my local BB store and for every returned movie you can rent a DVD at the store (no BD at the store yet though). $14.99/month, 3 movies out at a time, not a bad deal. Let's see the pricing on Unbox HD movies and see if it is makes $ense,

PD. I have been using a PS3 as my Blu-Ray player and have been very pleased.

[larrs]

I have been using Blockbuster Online for Blu-Ray rentals. I return the BDs to my local BB store and for every returned movie you can rent a DVD at the store (no BD at the store yet though). $14.99/month, 3 movies out at a time, not a bad deal. Let's see the pricing on Unbox HD movies and see if it is makes $ense,

PD. I have been using a PS3 as my Blu-Ray player and have been very pleased.

I was unaware that you could return the BD movies to the store. I have also been unable to find the BD movies on Blockbuster.com. Where are they?

EDIT: In my best Rosanne Rosanna Danna voice: "Nevermind". (I found them)

[pmiranda]

HD movies from unbox would be awesome. Please give this consideration. Also since the mpeg decoder on the Tivo can do these codecs, how about looking into supporting the usb HD-DVD drive for xbox. Imagine the convinience of watching HD-DVDs directly from the TIVO menu with the peanut remote.

I never even thought of that. That would be sweet, although I already have a DVD player and HTPC, neither has an HD drive.

[SugarBowl]

I've never seen any HD content from the iTunes store. That's basically the comeptition to unbox and over their they're also eagerly awaiting the arrival of HD content.

HD downloads would be nice, but I'll take good SD downloads. I currently have no PPV options at all, Unbox looks like it could be it.

oh. From looking at the iTunes previews of 24, it certainly seemed to me that it was in HD. I never actually paid for any downloads though.

[yunlin12]

Would Unbox be a way to get around the HD format war between HD DVD and Blueray? I have the Xbox 360 add-on that does HD DVD, and rent from Blockbuster online's HD DVD lineup once a while. If they can do HD download, without physically tied down to a disc, then maybe we won't have to deal with this format s**t any more.

[drew00001]

Would Unbox be a way to get around the HD format war between HD DVD and Blueray? I have the Xbox 360 add-on that does HD DVD, and rent from Blockbuster online's HD DVD lineup once a while. If they can do HD download, without physically tied down to a disc, then maybe we won't have to deal with this format s**t any more.

I Agree!! Bluray and HD will be very short term solutions for early adopters only. The rest of us will hold out for downloadable HD content.

[pmiranda]

Until downloads get a bunch faster, I think physical discs will still be the main way of getting movies. I doubt any downloads are going to have special features common on DVDs today, like director commentaries, alternate endings, and making-of featurettes.

[Deacon West]

Can your connection maintain 20mbps long term? Based upon the Comcast advertisement for their speeds they call it something like a 'boost' for short spurts. I never tested it but I suspect my 15mbps connection might slow down if I am downloading HD content.

I got the same message from Comcast stating I should power down my modem for one minute and reconnect. What is the technology behind this so called boost?

[doormat]

10Mb/s? What is 1080p content in H264? I did the math a while ago and it was something like 10Mb/s. Even me with a 6Mb/s pipe could buffer the first half of the movie and then start watching. Say, pick movie, cook dinner, eat, clean up and then watch the movie. 720p is even smaller at around 6Mb/s, or realtime for my connection speed. The question is can the CM network and Amazon's provider keep up. I downloaded Windows Home Server from MS the other day and was getting about 650-700K/s.

[cokyq]

Unbox will not do much for me if no HD content (even if it is 720p) is available. I am hooked on HD and really do not watch much SD content anymore. I cancelled my AppleTV order based on no HD program available in iTunes.

[rdrrepair]

...even if it is 720p...Really, Fox channels are at 720 and I watch 24 on a 70" Sony XBR and I don't really feel cheated. I would like 1080 but the 720 isn't that bad!

[pmiranda]

By my back-of-the-envelope calculation, 720p uses 89% of the bandwidth of 1080i... even though it's only 1280x720, it's a full 60 frames per second, whereas 1080i may be 1920 wide, it only carries 24 or 30 frames per second. In fact, since I imagine most movies are encoded at 1080i24, 720p60 actually uses more bandwidth.

[jhimmel]

10Mb/s? What is 1080p content in H264? I did the math a while ago and it was something like 10Mb/s. Even me with a 6Mb/s pipe could buffer the first half of the movie and then start watching. Say, pick movie, cook dinner, eat, clean up and then watch the movie. 720p is even smaller at around 6Mb/s, or realtime for my connection speed. The question is can the CM network and Amazon's provider keep up. I downloaded Windows Home Server from MS the other day and was getting about 650-700K/s.

Which is still faster then having a movie mailed to you using Netflix or other.
It may even be as fast or faster than going to a local store to rent or purchase.

[wierdo]

At the moment, Cox can provide me the full 12Mbit/s they claim, but I doubt that would be the case if everyone were downloading HD from Amazon or elsewhere.

[Derek Nickel]

Which is still faster then having a movie mailed to you using Netflix or other.
Ha! That reminds me of the joke about what is faster, sending a file via a 300 baud modem or on a floppy disk carried by a dog. It was on old joke...

[mikeyts]

By my back-of-the-envelope calculation, 720p uses 89% of the bandwidth of 1080i... even though it's only 1280x720, it's a full 60 frames per second, whereas 1080i may be 1920 wide, it only carries 24 or 30 frames per second. In fact, since I imagine most movies are encoded at 1080i24, 720p60 actually uses more bandwidth.On US television, of course, 1080i is always 1080i60 or 30 frames/second. Those frames have 2.25 times so many pixels as 1280x720, so 1080i60 is only a 12.5% higher pixel rate than 720p60.

Movies on Blu-ray and HD DVD are encoded as 1080p24 (according to the Blu-ray specifications, 1080p24 is the only progressive 1920x1080 format allowed).

ABC HD, Fox HD and ESPN HD are all 720p. HD movies on Xbox Live Video Marketplace are encoded as 720p VC-1; some of them have outstanding PQ at a mere 6.33 Mbps average bitrate. I'd be very happy if Amazon Unbox were to offer 720p HD movies at that quality level, and it'd only take 5.3 GB for two hours, which could be downloaded in about 3 hours at an average of 4 Mbps; not too bad. One advantage of the "Amazon Unbox on TiVo" model of ordering the film at Amazon.com is that you can easily do it at work.

The only problem that I have with the XBLVM movies is the lack of subtitles, and the 50% price hike for HD.

[btwyx]

Ha! That reminds me of the joke about what is faster, sending a file via a 300 baud modem or on a floppy disk carried by a dog. It was on old joke...In my case it was travelling from one side of London to the other and back via tube (subway train) to collect a half inch tape real. When I got back I worked out that the transfer worked out at about 9600 b/s. That was fast back then.

[eric_mcgovern]

The HD movies on the XBOX Live Marketplace work very well. Sure it isn't instant, but they download quick enough, and are still quicker waiting for a disc to show up in the mail.

I think TiVo did it right though, where you can select the show / movie from a computer at any time, and then it will automatically begin downloading. So I see this working as, you select the movie at work and by the time you get home it is ready to watch on the TiVo.

That being said, even the SD stuff on the Marketplace looks darn good on my HD.

[snathanb]

Until downloads get a bunch faster, I think physical discs will still be the main way of getting movies. I doubt any downloads are going to have special features common on DVDs today, like director commentaries, alternate endings, and making-of featurettes.

I never watch any of that extra fluff.

[rdrrepair]

Let's see - go to store - rent movie - watch movie - return movie hopefully on time - you still don't own it.

Go to Unbox - buy movie - watch movie after it downloads (2-3hrs) - re-watch movie anytime you want and no late fees... You now own the movie and can leave it on Amazon and download again if you need the room - virtual storage!

I think the Unbox is a great thing!!! Can't wait for it to be released!!! If you don't have PPV then this IS the ticket!!!

[btwyx]

Go to Unbox - buy movie I'd rent, rather than buy. I usually only watch movies once.

[mikeyts]

Let's see - go to store - rent movie - watch movie - return movie hopefully on time - you still don't own it.

Go to Unbox - buy movie - watch movie after it downloads (2-3hrs) - re-watch movie anytime you want and no late fees... You now own the movie and can leave it on Amazon and download again if you need the room - virtual storage!

I think the Unbox is a great thing!!! Can't wait for it to be released!!! If you don't have PPV then this IS the ticket!!!Well, you can also rent the movie from Unbox, which gives you 30 days (?) to start watching it after downloading and 24 hours to finish watching once you start. (XBLVM rentals give you 14 days before start).

Although Microsoft has fallen firmly into the HD DVD camp, they've publically stated a belief that it really doesn't matter, since they expect network download to become the predominate mode of entertainment media distribution in the future.

[doormat]

Thats the only thing I dont like about unbox - only 24 hours to watch the movie, 48 hours (two nights) would be better. At least with a blockbuster rental you get two nights (at least the last time I rented a movie).

[mikeyts]

I've always felt that things like this should be at least until midnight of the next day. Many people have things that they have to take care of before they could start to watch a film on a weekday; kids to feed and help with their homework, etc. If they fall asleep while watching, they are unlikely to be able to sit down and finish it before the same time the next evening, at which time the 24 hours will have expired. If you make the rental until midnight the following day, they have at least two full evenings to work with.

[moyekj]

Since the Amazon Unbox movies are .wmv format but downloads will be allowed to both Tivo S2 and Tivo S3 boxes at some point I assume they are going to be transcoded to mpeg2 before they are stored on the Tivo, meaning they will lose quality. Ideally at least for S3 units they should stay in their native .wmv format since I believe S3 has capable decoders for that format. But probably because S2 units need to be supported the video will be transcoded to mpeg2 no matter what Tivo you download them to. Or am I missing something?

IMO a much more exciting capability than this Unbox deal is opening up the S3 units to download any videos (in supported formats) from LAN or WAN. That would be an eye opener and greatly expand the functionality of the S3.

[mikeyts]

There is no DRM for MPEG-2; I cannot believe that they'll transfer these files encoded in clear MPEG.

[moyekj]

There is no DRM for MPEG-2; I cannot believe that they'll transfer these files encoded in clear MPEG. Then how can S2 boxes play them back without aid from Tivo Desktop or other software? AFAIK S2 boxes only have limited mpeg2 decoders so I'm curious how they could handle native playback of .wmv files?

[mikeyts]

I don't know. I could be wrong about MPEG-2 DRM. I can't think of any technical reason why a DRM system couldn't be wrapped around MPEG-2, it's just that there's none in common use on consumer devices. One thing that I'm fairly certain of is that the rights holders aren't going to let their IP go out over the net without it being protected somehow, both on the wire and on TiVo's HDD.

What decoder chipset is in use in TiVo-branded Series 2 boxes?

[rjom]

I don't understand much of the technical stuff you are all talking about, but I wonder if the Unbox download to Tivo S3 will display automatically in a 16:9 format, like DVD's do on my upconvert player. If they (non HD) just play at the 4:3 it would seem to be a disadvantage to renting the DVD if you have a widescreen HDTV. Thoughts on this?

[ThomC]

I don't understand much of the technical stuff you are all talking about, but I wonder if the Unbox download to Tivo S3 will display automatically in a 16:9 format, like DVD's do on my upconvert player. If they (non HD) just play at the 4:3 it would seem to be a disadvantage to renting the DVD if you have a widescreen HDTV. Thoughts on this?
HD would be optimal, but I'm not expecting it right off the bat. But, if movie file downloads are not at least available as anamorphic widescreen, I for one will not be using the service. I feel that this is a maker or breaker for the service. Tivo really needs to put as much pressure as they can on Amazon, to make this happen. On the other hand, if widescreen is available, this will be realy big as I would probably dump most of my movie channels and watch movies this way.

[jhimmel]

HD would be optimal, but I'm not expecting it right off the bat. But, if movie file downloads are not at least available as anamorphic widescreen, I for one will not be using the service. I feel that this is a maker or breaker for the service. Tivo really needs to put as much pressure as they can on Amazon, to make this happen. On the other hand, if widescreen is available, this will be realy big as I would probably dump most of my movie channels and watch movies this way.

I just downloaded a Amazon Unbox movie. It was widescreen and, although not HD, the picture quality was better than I expected.
I downloaded it to my PC which is hooked up to my 50" plasma display via HDMI.
There did not seem to be a DD5.1 track included.

If Unbox ever starts making HD content with DD5.1 available, the cable companies will REALLY start hating these S3 TiVo's, because I would probably cancel all of my Premium movie channel packages (I currently get them all).

There is one serious problem that some of you have already mentioned. It is not uncommon for it to take my wife and I more than one day to get through a movie. The 24hr limit is not long enough.

I suspect that competition will eventually force them to rethink that limit. I will be dropping them a note with my comments. Hopefully many others will do the same.

Jim H.

[aaronwt]

It's also 24 hours with the Xbox 360.

[cokyq]

Jim,

How would you compare the quality of the UNBOX movie to a movie played on normal (no upconverting) DVD player?

[mikeyts]

There is one serious problem that some of you have already mentioned. It is not uncommon for it to take my wife and I more than one day to get through a movie. The 24hr limit is not long enough.I commented on that in this (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4928806&&#post4928806) post above. If you start watching one of these films on an evening before a weekday and fail to finish it, most of those 24 hours will be hours that you're sleeping, getting ready for work and at work and it won't be convenient for you to start watching it again until the same time that you started the previous night. In this situation there's no difference between 4 and 24 hours. The period needs to be at least 30 hours.

[rdrrepair]

How would you compare the quality of the UNBOX movie to a movie played on normal (no upconverting) DVD player?The quality is better then "BEST QUALITY" on a Series 2... At least that's what I remember hearing. I recorded 2 episodes of 24 on my Unbox player and it looks pretty dang good on my Sony XBR70 HD TV.

Of course you can't compare Digital Quality to HD quality. :)

[TiivoDog]

The concern and/or question I have with the Amazon Unbox program is if I would purchase/rent a movie, if that that can then be downloaded to any of my other Tivo units. If I buy/rent a DVD, I can play it any of the televisions in my house - certainly not simultaneously, but nontheless that option exists.....

Of course, Series1 & Series2 boxes currently have MRV functionality, however I feel pretty confident Privacy Protection will be enabled on those shows to prevent distribution (e.g. TivoToGo).

Bottom line, is Amazon needs to either provide downloading to all units on an account, given certain rights as I wouldn't wany my children to be able to unilaterally download a movie they shouldn't AND/OR work with Tivo to allow MRV within an account for those Series that have MRV functionality. If these options can not be provided, I'm sure they will be forgoing revenue to the DVD distribution outlets, whether retail or online....

[drew00001]

The concern and/or question I have with the Amazon Unbox program is if I would purchase/rent a movie, if that that can then be downloaded to any of my other Tivo units. If I buy/rent a DVD, I can play it any of the televisions in my house - certainly not simultaneously, but nontheless that option exists.....

Of course, Series1 & Series2 boxes currently have MRV functionality, however I feel pretty confident Privacy Protection will be enabled on those shows to prevent distribution (e.g. TivoToGo).

Bottom line, is Amazon needs to either provide downloading to all units on an account, given certain rights as I wouldn't wany my children to be able to unilaterally download a movie they shouldn't AND/OR work with Tivo to allow MRV within an account for those Series that have MRV functionality. If these options can not be provided, I'm sure they will be forgoing revenue to the DVD distribution outlets, whether retail or online....

A faq at Amazon.com/unbox/ answers your question as follows:

How many copies of my Unbox videos can I have downloaded at one time?
Your videos from Amazon Unbox can be downloaded on up to 2 PCs or TiVo DVRs and 2 portable devices at any one time.

I also like this faq:

If I delete my Unbox video from my TiVo is it gone forever?
Amazon Unbox stores all of your purchased videos in Your Media Library for re-download, so your videos don't have to take up all the space on your TiVo DVR.

Hopefully, the videos will be 5.1, which I realize isn't as much of a necessity for most PCs. For me, stereo downloads = continued Netflix subscription. I know at least some of you understand.

[TiivoDog]

Drew, thx!! I should have reviewed the FAQ more closely, so it does at least provide more than 1, while not optimal (all of my units) it will allow some level of duplicity. I was aware that they could be downloaded subsequent to the purchase to save space, but couldn't locate/find, where it could be to additional units at the same time.

Also, does it say if you need to 'register' the additional units or with the application / portal plug that value, when an additional download takes place? Also, how will the system know if you download on a 2nd Tivo unit and then delete that one and want to download it on a 3rd Tivo unit?

Furthermore, I am hopeful Tivo will provide an MRV update to allow 2 Tivo units of of any given account to warehouse the show at any given time as transfer times would be significantly faster than having to download via the Internet again for additional devices....

[mrmot]

Hopefully, the videos will be 5.1, which I realize isn't as much of a necessity for most PCs. For me, stereo downloads = continued Netflix subscription. I know at least some of you understand.

Agreed. The two big ones for me are that it play in 16x9 format and that the audio be in DD. If the movies aren't widescreen, that'll be a deal breaker for me. If the audio is stereo only, then it'll probably just severely limit which movies I download. I understand that both of those are probably impossible for series 2 units, but I'd hope to see this on series 3 units.

[drew00001]

Also, does it say if you need to 'register' the additional units or with the application / portal plug that value, when an additional download takes place? Also, how will the system know if you download on a 2nd Tivo unit and then delete that one and want to download it on a 3rd Tivo unit?

Sorry, no clue whatsoever . . . though it seems like we'll have to wait until it's available.

[drew00001]

Agreed. The two big ones for me are that it play in 16x9 format and that the audio be in DD. If the movies aren't widescreen, that'll be a deal breaker for me. If the audio is stereo only, then it'll probably just severely limit which movies I download. I understand that both of those are probably impossible for series 2 units, but I'd hope to see this on series 3 units.

I try not to be too picky, but feel I am settleing for less than the best with DD. DTS sounds much better on my system. Unfortunately, when HD-DVD and Bluray came out, movie studios stopped releasing DVDs with DTS. If Amazon's downloads are only in stereo . . . and remain that way (i.e., until after prices drop) I will go back to DTS by adopting one of the new formats.

[jhimmel]

Agreed. The two big ones for me are that it play in 16x9 format and that the audio be in DD. If the movies aren't widescreen, that'll be a deal breaker for me. If the audio is stereo only, then it'll probably just severely limit which movies I download. I understand that both of those are probably impossible for series 2 units, but I'd hope to see this on series 3 units.

As I stated in my previous post - the movie I downloaded was widescreen.

Jim H.

[ThomC]

As I stated in my previous post - the movie I downloaded was widescreen.

Jim H.
Letterbox or anamorphic? Qualitywise there is a big difference.

[jhimmel]

Letterbox or anamorphic? Qualitywise there is a big difference.

Anamorphic

[slimoli]

Just downloaded and watched "The Italian Job" and here are my impressions:

-It took 1 hour and 30 minutes to download at an average of 3MBPS, although my internet connection is 6MBPS.

-Picture is VERY good, as good or better than a good DVD. My monitor is just 21" and it's a 4X3.

-Anamorphic widescreen.

-Can't tell if it's 5.1 or not because my PC only has 2 speakers.

-The unbox video player sucks. Very few settings (only brightness and contrast) but my guess is that they wanted it very simple and user friendly.


Looks very promising and I look forward to use Unbox on my Tivo and my 73" TV.

Sergio

[slimoli]

:( I played the video using Windows Media Player and it looks like there is only one audio track, probably stereo. :(

Just wonder if we never use the Unbox player how can Amazon know that we have already started the 24 hours window?

[sandenurse]

:( I played the video using Windows Media Player and it looks like there is only one audio track, probably stereo. :(

Just wonder if we never use the Unbox player how can Amazon know that we have already started the 24 hours window?


Just noticed this incentive on TiVo

Register for this new broadband service by April 30, 2007 and get $15 in free movies and TV shows. :D

http://www.tivo.com/4.9.24.asp?WT.ac=HPsubbb_unbox

[slimoli]

Just noticed this incentive on TiVo

Register for this new broadband service by April 30, 2007 and get $15 in free movies and TV shows. :D

http://www.tivo.com/4.9.24.asp?WT.ac=HPsubbb_unbox

Yep. Just did it! A movie is being downloaded to my S3 right now. I will let you guys know how it goes very soon...


Sergio

[slimoli]

Some intel on movie rentals:

-We have 30 days to start watching the movie . Some movies (new releases?) must be watched in 24 hours but many movies can be watched during 7 days. I can't understand why such a hurry for the new releases since we are not "keeping" it.

-It's not clear to me if it is possible to rent a movie and download it to 2 PCs. I guess this option is only if we purchase it because only one device can be clicked at a time . I registered 2 PCs and the S3 but I can send the download to just one of them.

It's too late now and it looks that my S3 download will take another hour or two. I will report tomorrow morning.

BTW, I read ALL the FAQs and it looks that there are movies with 5.1 audio.

Sergio

[btwyx]

-We have 30 days to start watching the movie . Some movies (new releases?) must be watched in 24 hours but many movies can be watched during 7 days.I've never seen one which says 7 days, could you give an example?

I was just looking through a few movies its recommending for me, and it looks like there's 2 different encodngs. Its giving a PC file in widescreen (1.78:1) and "TiVO Best Quality" file in 1.33:1. If I'm wathing a movie on my S3 I want a widescreen version, anamorphic preferably, but letterbox will do in a pinch.

[moyekj]

I've never seen one which says 7 days, could you give an example?

I was just looking through a few movies its recommending for me, and it looks like there's 2 different encodngs. Its giving a PC file in widescreen (1.78:1) and "TiVO Best Quality" file in 1.33:1. If I'm wathing a movie on my S3 I want a widescreen version, anamorphic preferably, but letterbox will do in a pinch. Now that seems to support what I theorized a few posts above how they are going to handle downloads to S2 Tivo boxes (and probably S3 users will be stuck with the lower quality Tivo mpeg2 format as well in which case it's worthless IMO).

[bradbissell]

Are the 1.33:1 movies letterbox or Pan&Scan? Either way is useless on my Series3/plasma. Just looking for more info from people who have had the $15 credit show on their account.

[pl1]

Are the 1.33:1 movies letterbox or Pan&Scan? Either way is useless on my Series3/plasma. Just looking for more info from people who have had the $15 credit show on their account.I just got a free download to my TiVo worth $15.00 from Amazon.

[kas25]

The credit showed immediately when I purchased in Amazon. I already had an Amazon account set up.

[pmiranda]

I took the credit, but I suspect I'll be watching movies on the PC to get the correct aspect ratio, unless they start supporting S3's with 1.78:1 in TiVo format.

[mikeyts]

Because I was in temporary housing w/o a DVR (:O) I missed all but the first couple of episodes of the season of the stuff that I watch on Fox, so I'm downloading an episode of Bones. I don't know what format this is encoded in, but since its .96 GB for a 1 hour program (2.3 Mbps average) I doubt that I'll be using this after the $15 credit is spent, unless they start offering HD format stuff. Life is too short to watch poor quality video.

BTW, I notice a bright blue dot displayed on the S3's front panel and I'm assuming that it indicates the download in progress. Is this dot displayed at any other time?

[LHMPDX]

They've got some strange movies up on Unbox. For example, check out the documentary rentals. A lot of major docs are missing, but there is plenty available if you want to study China.

I have high hopes for such a service - especially as a thumb in the eye to the idiots who refuse to agree on a DVD / HD standard. But unless they get this going for HD and build up an Amazon.com type inventory, it is likely going nowhere.

[TiivoDog]

I spoke with Amazon Unbox support about my issue, where my VIP Lifetime was changed overnight and is screwing up my download to the 2 units involved - I need to wait another 30 minutes until the VCM connection occurs to find out. Anyways, I did ask about Widescreen, DD 7.1, etc... and the rep said they are at the whim of what the provider's (Studios) give them, so I just hope they up the ante soon and provide what we would expect - Widescreen & DD content.... Who cares if it takes longer to download!!

Also, I suggested the movies / show are denoted with an attribute stating they will be 'blackout' for downloading after 90 days, since we don't know which ones are affected... Hopefully, they take heed in those suggestions.

[demon]

BTW, I notice a bright blue dot displayed on the S3's front panel and I'm assuming that it indicates the download in progress. Is this dot displayed at any other time?

The blue light is used to indicate that your Series3 is downloading video via a broadband connection (i.e., the Ethernet port). If you look at something (like a TiVoCast download) in progress in the Now Playing List, it'll be accompanied by a similar blue dot icon.

[mikeyts]

I just watched the first few minutes of that episode of Bones. Unfortunately, it's one of the few that I've seen--then again, it was free :). Definitely no higher quality than typical SD digital cable; maybe a little less. The bitrate of the encoding is about significantly lower. Also, no closed captions--wagging finger of shame.

Difficult for me to believe that they're completely at the providers' "whim" in terms of content. On Xbox Live Video Marketplace every CBS show which airs in HD is available in HD (or SD--your choice), and at least one program that didn't air in HD (Star Trek: TOS). 22 out of 102 movies titles available in HD on XBLVM as well. Both sources are in their infancy, though and we can only hope that they improve.

Not a very auspicious beginning, but we'll see what happens. Unfortunately they only get one chance to make a first impression.

[slimoli]

OK, after downloading The Perfect Storm and MI3 to my S3 , here are my conclusions so far:

-Both videos look WORSE than a DVD on my S3/ 73" TV.

-Both videos are letterbox and look terrible if I use any stretch or zoom. Deal break in my opinion.

-No 5.1, at least with these 2 movies. Doesn't look good.

My guess is that Amazon is targeting Joe Six-Packs, not home theater people. My video on demand produces a picture very similar to this and that's why I never use it.

Sergio

[Fofer]

I can see myself renting when I'm really eager to see a title, like, right now... for immediate gratification. A silly title that I'd only be interested in once.

But I doubt I'd pay to BUY anything when for similar $$ outlay I could get a better quality original DVD, with all the extras.

[mikeyts]

Thank you, Slimoli--you've saved me the trouble of downloading a movie. I can use all of the credits for catching up on Bones and House :).

[pmiranda]

But I doubt I'd pay to BUY anything when for similar $$ outlay I could get a better quality original DVD, with all the extras.

So true... You can buy Perfect Storm via unbox for $10 without special features or 5.1 and using their proprietary compression, or you can buy the real DVD for $9.50... from Amazon! If you want the HD version, you have to pony up $20 for the HDDVD.

I'll keep my NetFlix account for now, thanks.

[slimoli]

This product is not for us, S3 users. All we can get is "best quality" 1:33/1 videos . The product is driven to the S2/stereo/4X3 public. The concept is great though and if Amazon doesn't deliver we will probably see Google or Yahoo with a better version.

Sergio

[cherry ghost]

I still say that Amazon would be smart to offer a small discount on the actual DVD of a movie that I have already rented.

[Fofer]

I still say that Amazon would be smart to offer a small discount on the actual DVD of a movie that I have already rented.

"Small discount?"

How about a BIG one?

Or how about, let me download it free... if I've already paid for the actual disk?




I want to like this new service, I really do. But the economics of it don't make much sense to me. After the novelty wears off I suspect I won't be using it much. They'd have to get much better selection (and searching tools) and the prices would have to come down, as well.

[aringhof]

Does anyone think Unbox should give you 48-72 hours to watch a rental... If you have kids at home, you usually dont get to start a movie until after dinner, bath and bedtime routines... so you start it at 9-10pm... MAYBE get 25-50% through it, and fall asleep... and go to work at 7am the next morning... its nearly impossible to watch an entire movie in 24 hours..... even Blockbuster gives you 2 days for new releases, and thats because they want to re-rent it to someone else... why would Unbox care if you had had it a couple days before expiring... who can sit through an entire 2-3 hour movie at home with no distractiosn these days.

[drew00001]

I considered buying Departed because I keep getting passes over by Netflix. The movie is in high demand, so I would have to wait my turn to get the disk. I thought this would be the benefit of Unbox, but I can't get myself to download a movie that I am excited to watch when it is available in better quality, even when the credit is free. I guess I'll just wait my turn with Netflix or buy the DVD at target.

[TiivoDog]

Regarding Rentals - they should be good for at least a week! Heck, they should be good for a month as far as I am concerened - it's not as if I am going to watch it umpteen times, anyways.

In fact, they should just institute tiered pricing for anything - Lifetime and Rentals at the following intervals: 12 months, 1 month and 1 day

[Animgif]

Yeah, after using this I think I'm sticking to XBox Marketplace for my DVD rentals...thanks to the HD availability. 7gb vs. 2gb sucks, but I'm willing to deal with the extra download.

[Fofer]

Yeah, after using this I think I'm sticking to XBox Marketplace for my DVD rentals...thanks to the HD availability. 7gb vs. 2gb sucks, but I'm willing to deal with the extra download.

Me too... but the hard drive space is a pretty big concern. What do we have (currently)... 20 GB? I'm probably using 10-15 already for demos and XBLA titles...

Meanwhile, my S3 has 750 GB!

I will probably just keep using this over the XBOX Marketplace, just because it keeps everything in one spot. Granted its not in HD, not 5.1, but the ease of use is just too much for me to pass up. To me the XBOX Marketplace still feels a bit clunky, with the use of points, worrying about HD space, and the fact that it never maxes out my connection.

I like it too, for convenience and consistent interface. I *much* prefer to browse through what to watch via TiVo (which is always on) than via the Xbox 360's blade menu. Not to mention the 360 is very loud. I don't mind it so much when I'm gaming, but it's pretty bad when you want to watch a show and listen to dialog.

One of the biggest bonuses for me, is I don't have to turn on my TV to download something.

Heh. While that's nice, they also REALLY need to add a way to search/request downloads directly from the TiVo itself. Maybe via an HME app? Because lots of folks have expressed the desire to use the TV for the entire experience. Why should I have to get up and go to the office, to download a movie to enjoy in the living room? (Yes, I have a laptop... I'm just illustrating an example.)

[larrs]

I just downloaded a Amazon Unbox movie. It was widescreen and, although not HD, the picture quality was better than I expected.
I downloaded it to my PC which is hooked up to my 50" plasma display via HDMI.
There did not seem to be a DD5.1 track included.

If Unbox ever starts making HD content with DD5.1 available, the cable companies will REALLY start hating these S3 TiVo's, because I would probably cancel all of my Premium movie channel packages (I currently get them all).

There is one serious problem that some of you have already mentioned. It is not uncommon for it to take my wife and I more than one day to get through a movie. The 24hr limit is not long enough.

I suspect that competition will eventually force them to rethink that limit. I will be dropping them a note with my comments. Hopefully many others will do the same.

Jim H.

What was the movie? I'd like to see that myself.

[larrs]

OK, after downloading The Perfect Storm and MI3 to my S3 , here are my conclusions so far:

-Both videos look WORSE than a DVD on my S3/ 73" TV.

-Both videos are letterbox and look terrible if I use any stretch or zoom. Deal break in my opinion.

-No 5.1, at least with these 2 movies. Doesn't look good.

My guess is that Amazon is targeting Joe Six-Packs, not home theater people. My video on demand produces a picture very similar to this and that's why I never use it.

Sergio

I agree with you, but this just means they are aiming at the same market that VOD does. All VOD offered by my cable provider is 4X3 and not HD. It also looks a lot worse than either a DVD or the regular feed from the particular channel. For instance, I missed recording an episode of Rome on HBO last year and watched it instead off of HBO on Demand- the quality was far worse than tuning in to HBO and watching it live (even in SD).

Since most of this right now is aimed at S2 users, they would have issues for many people who have those S2s connected to 4X3 tvs if they sent widescreen mateial (tall skinny people)- that is "unless" Tivo could come up with a way to letterbox the widescreen videos if your box was set as "widescreen" in the setup menu (like the dvd flag). Could happen if Tivo/Amazon/Content Providers could agree on it and make an anamorphic copy available.

That being said, the only time we use VOD is if we miss an episode of a favorite program or if the kids are home alone and don't want to re-watch one of the 500 or so DVDs we own. For that, I can live with 4X3. After all, my entire "now playing" list is my VOD. :)

[larrs]

Does anyone think Unbox should give you 48-72 hours to watch a rental... If you have kids at home, you usually dont get to start a movie until after dinner, bath and bedtime routines... so you start it at 9-10pm... MAYBE get 25-50% through it, and fall asleep... and go to work at 7am the next morning... its nearly impossible to watch an entire movie in 24 hours..... even Blockbuster gives you 2 days for new releases, and thats because they want to re-rent it to someone else... why would Unbox care if you had had it a couple days before expiring... who can sit through an entire 2-3 hour movie at home with no distractiosn these days.

Again, this is just like my cable comany's VOD, which is the market they must be aiming for.

[mikeyts]

There is one serious problem that some of you have already mentioned. It is not uncommon for it to take my wife and I more than one day to get through a movie. The 24hr limit is not long enough.

I suspect that competition will eventually force them to rethink that limit.Exactly what competition would that be? MovieLink, CinemaNow and Xbox Live Video Marketplace all have 24 hour viewing periods.

Does anyone know of a (non-pornographic :D) video download site with a longer viewing period?

[aaronwt]

Why is the aspect ratio only 1.33:1 for the TiVo downloads? i figured i would try it out since they give you $15 of free downloads when you sign up with your tiVo account. But everything for the TiVo is in 1.33:1 while the PC version is 1.78 like it should be.

[larrs]

This whole thing gets me concerned we'll never get eSata, MRV or TTG. If Tivo is infringing on cable company profits (and VOD is profitable), then I wonder if cable labs will just drag their feet on other things?


On the other hand, if you can download content from Amazon, etc, it doesn't make any sense not to be able to at least move content from one Tivo to another over your network, does it?

[mrmot]

As I stated in my previous post - the movie I downloaded was widescreen.

Jim H.

I guess I should've been more clear - I was specifically talking about whether the movies would be in widescreen format with dolby digital on tivo boxes (series 3 at least, obviously series 2 would be impossible, but 4:3 letterboxed for a series 2 would still be nice). Unless I'm mistaken, your previous post was about download to a computer...

From what I've read so far, movies are only available in 4:3 format for tivo download.

CORRECTION: Ok, so looking at some other posts, it looks like things are 4:3 letterboxed. At least that's a start... Too bad they don't offer anamorphic for s3 owners though.

[slimoli]

There is a HUGE difference between my VOD and Unbox: My VOD is FREE for more than 90% of the movies (all SHO,HBO,MAX and all TV shows). I think it's so bad that I don't watch VOD even free of charge , let alone paying 3.99 each.

Sergio

[mikeyts]

This whole thing gets me concerned we'll never get eSata, MRV or TTG.I dunno that MRV or TTG are so much the concern of CableLabs. (Although I guess that verifying that protected content can never be moved for MRV or TTG would be CableLabs' business). Both mechanisms involve making a second copy of a recording, and if that recording is marked "Copy One Generation" that's explicitly disallowed. Both should be allowed for core basic cable channels, since the providers aren't allowed to mark that any protection mode other than "Copy Freely".

[tedler]

This Unbox stuff is junk, pure and simple. Allow downloads of HD movies with at least DD5.1, and allow them to stay on the Tivo HD for as long as I wish, and then I might try it again. Until then, this has got to be the biggest waste of programming for the Tivo since the other rediculous product called TivoCast. What a joke! FORGET about this crap Tivo! Get to work on TTG, especially allowing ANYTHING from my PC to be STREAMED to the S3.
Now THAT would be something to rave about!

[Fofer]

allow them to stay on the Tivo HD for as long as I wish
Purchases can.


the other rediculous product called TivoCast.
I actually like TiVoCast. Sure, it needs more content offerings, but other than that, I think it's pretty cool. And I'm on an S3 with a 61" HDTV. If we see no more content within 3-6 months I'll agree it's silly. But I'll be patient and hopeful in the meantime. :)

[tase2]

Cannot link from work but check out engadget.com.

Look for Amazon's Unbox now available dated today.

Check out the comments section. Look at comment 17 by Sam Gigliotti

[cherry ghost]

Cannot link from work but check out engadget.com.

Look for Amazon's Unbox now available dated today.

Check out the comments section. Look at comment 17 by Sam Gigliotti
http://www.engadget.com/2007/03/07/amazons-unbox-video-download-service-now-available-on-tivo/comments/3864835/

[Fofer]

Cannot link from work but check out engadget.com.

Look for Amazon's Unbox now available dated today.

Check out the comments section. Look at comment 17 by Sam Gigliotti


Good find, I hope it's true:

Sam Gigliotti @ Mar 7th 2007 2:04PM
I am the lead engineer on the Unbox team. It's great to see all this interest in the TiVo launch.

We're working on getting HD content for the Series 3, as well as cleaning up the 4:3 vs 16:9 issue. It just takes time to re-encode thousands of video files and get them uploaded to our CDN. You will see this situation improve in the near future.

This googling was encouraging:
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/0/262/325

[TiivoDog]

Per the post I placed on the other Amazon Unbox thread, which I provided below, my suggestion regarding folks that already purchased an SD / 4:3 should be provided an opportunity to upgrade to the HD. The response was received well by the Rep, who was running it up the ladder, so I hope it touches Sam Gigliotti (Lead Engineer), who seems to be in touch with what the community is requesting - certainly if they want this to be a success among all Tivo users:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=343453&page=2

[btwyx]

Per the post I placed on the other Amazon Unbox thread, which I provided below, my suggestion regarding folks that already purchased an SD / 4:3 should be provided an opportunity to upgrade to the HD.[/url]If you purchased a video you can already redownload it whenever you want. The problem would be if they thought the HD version was a different product from the current SD version. Currently they don't distinguish between PC, TiVo and mobile so I can't see that being a problem. So if HD content ever shows up, I expect to just say downlaod it to my S3 and it'll be HD.

[slimoli]

Is Sam Gigliotti a Tivo or Amazon engineer?

[btwyx]

Is Sam Gigliotti a Tivo or Amazon engineer?Unbox is an Amazon product so I assume Amazon. Also that other link pointed to him being in Seattle, where Amazon lives.

[rainwater]

This Unbox stuff is junk, pure and simple. Allow downloads of HD movies with at least DD5.1, and allow them to stay on the Tivo HD for as long as I wish, and then I might try it again. Until then, this has got to be the biggest waste of programming for the Tivo since the other rediculous product called TivoCast. What a joke! FORGET about this crap Tivo! Get to work on TTG, especially allowing ANYTHING from my PC to be STREAMED to the S3.
Now THAT would be something to rave about!

You do realize that the majority of TiVo users on are on S2 platform. So why would they cater to S3/HD users instead of those users on initial product launch? Amazon doesn't have HD content yet, so TiVo can't magically provide HD content. Amazon is in a race with plenty of other providers and it only makes sense they will be adding HD content sooner rather than later. So, I don't think S3 users will be without HD content from Unbox forever.

[Fofer]

Is Sam Gigliotti a Tivo or Amazon engineer?

According to his linkedin profile, he is a Software Development Engineer at Amazon.com in Seattle.

http://www.linkedin.com/ppl/webprofile?action=vmi&id=625997&authToken=gJHh&authType=name&trk=ppro_viewmore
(may require registration)

[slimoli]

According to his linkedin profile, he is a Software Development Engineer at Amazon.com in Seattle.

http://www.linkedin.com/ppl/webprofile?action=vmi&id=625997&authToken=gJHh&authType=name&trk=ppro_viewmore
(may require registration)


Good! Tivo development team has already a bunch of new things to develop for the S3 and I believe that Amazon can push widescreen and 5.1 quicker. Hidef would be fantastic but I can live with a "DVd like" quality for few months. A 2 hours hidef movie will be downloaded in 6 to 10 hours assuming we have a decent broadband connection and the movie studios could be more interested in promoting Bluray/HDDVD for a while.

Sergio

[tase2]

Thanks guys for putting up the link for me :up:

[mikeyts]

A 2 hours hidef movie will be downloaded in 6 to 10 hours assuming we have a decent broadband connection and the movie studios could be more interested in promoting Bluray/HDDVD for a while.A little over 20% of the movies on Xbox Live Video Marketplace are 720p, encoded in VC-1 at an average of about 7.6 Mbps. I've seen a few of those that were stunning--easily superior to DVD (my only complaints are the price and the lack of closed captions). They consume about 6.33 GB for a two hour movie. It never takes much more than 3 hours for me to download one of them. TiVo probably can't do VC-1, but I know that it can handle MPEG-4; I don't know whether it's "vanilla" MPEG-4 or AVC, but if its AVC it should have the same quality as VC-1 at similar bitrates.

[Fofer]

A little over 20% of the movies on Xbox Live Video Marketplace are 720p, encoded in VC-1 at an average of about 7.6 Mbps. I've seen a few of those that were stunning--easily superior to DVD (my only complaints are the price and the lack of closed captions). They consume about 6.33 GB for a two hour movie.

This presents an inherent problem for the Xbox 360... and it's 20 GB hard drive.

[mikeyts]

This presents an inherent problem for the Xbox 360... and it's 20 GB hard drive.Yes--they very badly need to offer a larger drive. You pretty much can't have two feature-length HD films on the drive at once. Not a problem for me personally, but I can see where on a shared system someone might want to download a rental while someone else has one loaded but left unfinished.

Note that you cannot buy films on XBLVM yet--just rent them. Television show episodes are always purchases. When you're done with them you can delete them, but you retain a right to download them again.

[ldc3000]

I think that this will go the way divx went when dvds first came out. Good idea needs some find tuning.

[larrs]

You do realize that the majority of TiVo users on are on S2 platform. So why would they cater to S3/HD users instead of those users on initial product launch? Amazon doesn't have HD content yet, so TiVo can't magically provide HD content. Amazon is in a race with plenty of other providers and it only makes sense they will be adding HD content sooner rather than later. So, I don't think S3 users will be without HD content from Unbox forever.

Agreed, but nothing is stopping them from at least giving us the choice of anamorphic widescreen and DD5.1 since it is already there on the PC download copies. As posted earlier, HD would be nice, but the size of the download would be tough. I could certainly live with Best quality SD if it were widescreen.

Some of you who post on Engadget should push for this option as it would be easy for them to handle.

[Fofer]

Good find, I hope it's true:


Sam Gigliotti @ Mar 7th 2007 2:04PM
I am the lead engineer on the Unbox team. It's great to see all this interest in the TiVo launch.

We're working on getting HD content for the Series 3, as well as cleaning up the 4:3 vs 16:9 issue. It just takes time to re-encode thousands of video files and get them uploaded to our CDN. You will see this situation improve in the near future.

If this is true, I'm surprised the Unbox team has to re-encode every video (considering their short history.) They didn't plan just a little bit ahead?

[mikeyts]

I think that this will go the way divx went when dvds first came out. Good idea needs some find tuning.Few would agree with you that Divx was a good idea, especially given the timing of its introduction. Joe Average was having a hard enough time understanding DVD at all without there being racks of discs in some stores with the same titles as the open discs across the aisle but at a fraction of the price, which, if he made a mistake and bought one wouldn't work in his open dvd player.

But I digress :).

[sockgap]

I just downloaded an episode of 30 Days from Unbox to my TiVo.
It's 480i 4:3 and looks like my recordings from standard def digital cable channels. Unbox is OK for content that was originally videoed in SD, and will never be available in true HD but to be popular they have to add HD content. No way will I pay for a SD Hollywood movie for instance, since they all are capable of being TKd into HD and HD is the way I want to watch movies now.

[jeffshome]

I purchased a movie while at work and the movie was in my Now Playing list when I got home. I watched the movie but it was SD all the way: no Dolby 5.1; screen format was 480i widescreen but inside a 4:3 format so it had black bars all the way around. I used TiVo’s zoom aspect ratio to fill the screen but this made the video blurry and magnified the over compression.

All-in-all this new service might be good to catch a TV show you’ve missed but it’s not a “home theater” quality download site – maybe in the future.

[knightl]

I purchased a movie while at work and the movie was in my Now Playing list when I got home. I watched the movie but it was SD all the way: no Dolby 5.1; screen format was 480i widescreen but inside a 4:3 format so it had black bars all the way around. I used TiVo’s zoom aspect ratio to fill the screen but this made the video blurry and magnified the over compression.

All-in-all this new service might be good to catch a TV show you’ve missed but it’s not a “home theater” quality download site – maybe in the future.

i'm no expert, but i watched "my super ex-girlfriend" and during uma's flying
scenes i could hear the sound from left to right in the rear speakers.

would standard stereo through 5 speakers still provide that effect?

[TiivoDog]

I believe that affect comes from Dolby Pro Logic, where it simulates surround sound - I might be wrong as I am not an audiophile even though I have a top of the line Onkyo receiver (SR804)....

[vstone]

If this is true, I'm surprised the Unbox team has to re-encode every video (considering their short history.) They didn't plan just a little bit ahead?Maybe they put this together so quickly that they used already encoded source material, like that provided to SD cable channels.

[TiivoDog]

Not sure, but Amazon has received the message and they are working on improvement with the Widescreen format, as well as Dobly 5.1 - otherwise, they will be narrowing their market (which is currently probably the larger audience) to the Series2 owners with an SD TV....

Hopefully, we will see an improvement soon.

[drew00001]

i'm no expert, but i watched "my super ex-girlfriend" and during uma's flying
scenes i could hear the sound from left to right in the rear speakers.

would standard stereo through 5 speakers still provide that effect?

Dolby and DTS own the technologies, which are licensed to most mainstream receivers. NEO6, which is owned by DTS, converts stereo broadcasts to 5.1 or 7.1, depending on your setup. Dolby's competition is only capable of converting to 5.1, and, on my Sony receiver, does not sound nearly as good, even compared to NEO6 in 5.1. I set my receiver to automatically use NEO6 when there is an option.

IMHO, discrete sound channels are always a better option, which means I will be renting DVDs until a 5.1 soundrack can be downloaded from Unbox.

[Joe3]

Hey, there are just too many threads on this subject. But here's an idea lost in the pond.

HD Disc War May Be At Crossroads

By Greg Tarr -- TWICE, 3/8/2007 6:26:00 AM

"... Concerning the threat of the rapidly developing video download market, Andy Parsons, Blu-ray Disc Association U.S. Promotions Committee chairman and Pioneer advanced product development senior VP, said bandwidth remains insufficient to deliver a quality feature-length HD video in a reasonable amount of time..."

My point, now is the time for TiVo/Amazon to strike while these HD DVD guys are a sleep.

Amazon has been around since the Dot.com wars and won. They have to be seeing this opportunity to strike.

We do not need a HD DVD player.

We need Amazon to do what it does best, move quickly and deliberately into HD. As long as this DVD war continues there will exist a small window of opportunity for Amazon that will make them a leader in the HD media delivery landscape. Amazon is the gorilla in every room they enter. However, they have to strike now while the irons hot and the HD DVD guys are asleep.

If we know a HD DVD release is coming out on Friday, why not download it at midnight and go to bed to wake up with it ready to play or before going to work so it would be there when you get home?

Isn't this better than driving to the Video store after 5 and finding its sold out and having to drive all the way home with some DVD you didn't want in the first place?

If Amazon does not strike now with HD downloads they will lose the brief window of opportunity they have and someone else will take not only their great opportunity, but their reputation as well.

[ashu]

Currently, I add BR movies to my Netflix queue, and usually get them on release day or the next day.

I wouldn't be unhappy if Amazon also provided HD really quickly, but the pay-per-view concept, and the cost without extras being equal to the actual BR/HDDVD is not something I'm willing to accept!

[Joe3]

Who is saying we have too?

[kas25]

Agree totally. No chance in hell I am buying a blu ray dvd player. My entire collection of music, photos and videos will be digital going forward. It is too clean and easy to have content digitally. Even if I give up a little quality at first, I can't see going back.

[ashu]

That's what I told myself too ... and now I own (and love) a Sony BluRay player. it also plays games, imagine that!

[kas25]

That's what I told myself too ... and now I own (and love) a Sony BluRay player. it also plays games, imagine that!
Maybe I'll change but I just can't stand the pile of DVDs on top of my player. I can't imagine Itunes or Amazon won't get the HD thing right.

[mikesay98]

Agree totally. No chance in hell I am buying a blu ray dvd player. My entire collection of music, photos and videos will be digital going forward. It is too clean and easy to have content digitally. Even if I give up a little quality at first, I can't see going back.

I kind of agree with that, but then I have to look at the economics of it too. I can get Netflix and rent HD movies or SD movies for $18/month, and can come out to less than $1/movie.

Granted, with digital you can avoid the whole format war, and not all movies in HD are available yet on any kind of DVD.

But, if Netflix or Amazon could introduce some kind of HD downloadable netflix-like service, I'd be all over it. Until then, I'll just stick to Netflix, and TNT/UHD for my movies.

[ashu]

TNT's Stretch-o-Crap-O-Vision? Sheesh!

For my HD movie fix, beyond BluRay - its Starz, Shotime and HBO HD for me :) Pity Comcast booted HDNet movies - they have an excellent if eclectivc library of great upconverts broadcast in the highest HD quality possible!

[ashu]

You sure it plays games? ;) Just checking because last I looked, Sony was determined to kill the "Play" part of the "PlayStation"

I have these two discs her - Formula One and Virtua Fighter 5 - and when I pop in one of them, and hit buttons on the controller, it DEFINITELY plays :p

<edit> I usually pop in an old copy of Gran Turismo 4 (a PS2 game) though!

[Fofer]

The PS3 plays games, alright! Anyone see the demo of LittleBigPlanet from GDC '07?

http://kotaku.com/gaming/littlebigplanet/clips-littlebigplanet-242305.php
http://gamevideos.com/video/id/9860

Looks like a system-seller to me... at least for 2008...

[mikesay98]

TNT's Stretch-o-Crap-O-Vision? Sheesh!

For my HD movie fix, beyond BluRay - its Starz, Shotime and HBO HD for me :) Pity Comcast booted HDNet movies - they have an excellent if eclectivc library of great upconverts broadcast in the highest HD quality possible!

Personally, I don't find it that bad, especially if I'm watching movies I've never seen. And again, the price factor comes in. Paying for Starz, Showtime, and HBO can get expensive. I mean, one only has so much time to watch movies (on top of TV) anyway, so I find that HD movies on TNT/UHD plus Netflix is enough for me to handle, for a lot less than I'd pay for those premium channels.

On a side note, if Amazon Unbox had Battlestar Gallactica in HD, I would be all over it. I hate being 3 months behind on UHD. And I hear xbox live's version that they sell is crappy too. Oh well...

[moyekj]

OK, so has anyone activated a network sniffer when these Unbox transfers happen? If Amazon/Unbox can transfer movies to the S3 then it may well be possible to figure out the protocol and transfer our own recordings. Not sure what the level of encryption, if any, there is but it would certainly be interesting to look at.

[mikeyts]

On a side note, if Amazon Unbox had Battlestar Gallactica in HD, I would be all over it. I hate being 3 months behind on UHD. And I hear xbox live's version that they sell is crappy too. Oh well...The only HD versions of television series episodes on XBL Video Marketplace are all programs on CBS--none of the other networks are selling HD. CBS has programs available in HD on XBLVM that weren't originally broadcast that way (Star Trek: TOS); they also have many times as much content as any other network (both ABC and NBC are fielding one poorly rated series each--The Nine and Studio 60, resp. Useless :rolleyes: ). The CW does have episodes of four popular series for sale, though only in widescreen SD and only from this season.

XBLVM does not sell episodes of Battlestar Galactica or any other Sci Fi Channel series. The few SD television episodes that I've downloaded from there have been extremely high quality encodings--far better than SD cable, digital or analog, and an order of magnitude higher PQ than this Unbox dreck.

[mikesay98]

The only HD versions of television series episodes on XBL Video Marketplace are all programs on CBS--none of the other networks are selling HD. CBS has programs available in HD on XBLVM that weren't originally broadcast that way (Star Trek: TOS); they also have many times as much content as any other network (both ABC and NBC are fielding one poorly rated series each--The Nine and Studio 60, resp. Useless :rolleyes: ). The CW does have episodes of four popular series for sale, though only in widescreen SD and only from this season.

XBLVM does not sell episodes of Battlestar Galactica or any other Sci Fi Channel series. The few SD television episodes that I've downloaded from there have been extremely high quality encodings--far better than SD cable, digital or analog, and an order of magnitude higher PQ than this Unbox dreck.

You know what, I think you're right. I read over the article again and it looks like it was just some sort of recap thing. Well, anyway, I certainly wish I could watch it in HD and catch up within a few days.

Normally I'd go for Star Trek TOS, but I've already seen the first 2 seasons, and while I'd love to watch it in HD, how much are they, like $2 each? $2x79 episodes = $158 that I can't spend. I'll wait until they come out on HD DVD.

[Grakthis]

Agree totally. No chance in hell I am buying a blu ray dvd player. My entire collection of music, photos and videos will be digital going forward. It is too clean and easy to have content digitally. Even if I give up a little quality at first, I can't see going back.

Just to nitpick here, but Blu Ray is a digital format. It's just that the medium of storage is an external disk instead of your HD.

And in my mind, if I were downloading movies as the way to buy them, the first thing I would do with every one of them is burn it off to a disk for safe keeping.

Nothing beats the portability and security of laser read disks. Your HD will die out long before my DVD collection does.

I'll rent a movie via a download, but if I am going to own it, I want it in a non-DRM, non-encrypted format that can play on devices made by many companies.

[mikeyts]

I'll rent a movie via a download, but if I am going to own it, I want it in a non-DRM, non-encrypted format that can play on devices made by many companies.All of your theatrical-release DVDs are encrypted with DRM on them. Unbox videos can be downloaded onto two devices simultaneously, being any combination of Windows PCs and/or TiVos.

[yunlin12]

Out of the 8 HD-DVD movies I have on my Blockbuster Q, only 2 are available, 4 are short wait, and 2 are very long wait. If Amazon Unbox HD download works, I wouldn't have to deal with this waiting game any more.

[mikeyts]

Out of the 8 HD-DVD movies I have on my Blockbuster Q, only 2 are available, 4 are short wait, and 2 are very long wait. If Amazon Unbox HD download works, I wouldn't have to deal with this waiting game any more.Yeah--I'd switched back to Blockbuster from Netflix because of their return-a-mailer-to-the-store-and-get-a-new-movie deal (I think that they call it "Total Access") but then got pissed at their horrible support for Blu-ray and HD DVD online and total lack of support for them in the stores. So, I returned to Netflix, where the availability of HD discs is much, much better. Unfortunately, I didn't cancel my Blockbuster membership last month before they charged me for another month, so I'm still a member of both (and I have 5 Blu-ray discs and one HD DVD out between the two sources :D).

[slimoli]

I only have Netflix. 8 BD movies on queue, all long and very long wait. The Guardian is in long wait for almost 2 months, but I got Babel on the day it was released.

Sergio

[ashu]

Netflix - 20+ BR discs in my queue, spread from the top 10 to way later. All of them ship instantly, and not a single movie (BR or otherwise) in my 400+ strong queue shows up as anything but "Available now".

[vstone]

If you purchased a video you can already redownload it whenever you want. The problem would be if they thought the HD version was a different product from the current SD version. Currently they don't distinguish between PC, TiVo and mobile so I can't see that being a problem. So if HD content ever shows up, I expect to just say downlaod it to my S3 and it'll be HD.Actually if you look throuhg some of the available movies you will see that there are different downloads for PC
(apparently anamorphic), Tivo (4:3 letterbox SD), and portable. Too bad we can't at least get the PC version on the S3!

[mikeyts]

I only have Netflix. 8 BD movies on queue, all long and very long wait. The Guardian is in long wait for almost 2 months, but I got Babel on the day it was released.

SergioThere are 37 Blu-ray and HD DVD discs in my Netflix queue and except for two which haven't shipped yet (Stranger Than Fiction, Casino Royale), they're all available "Now". You must live near an extremely busy distribution center.

[wmcbrine]

There are 37 Blu-ray and HD DVD discs in my Netflix queue and except for two which haven't shipped yet (Stranger Than Fiction, Casino Royale), they're all available "Now". You must live near an extremely busy distribution center.I think it has more to do with your past account history -- the faster you return your discs, the more you get shoved down in the queue. It sounds perverse, but Netflix makes more money when you rent fewer discs, at a given price.

[ashu]

I think it has more to do with your past account history -- the faster you return your discs, the more you get shoved down in the queue. It sounds perverse, but Netflix makes more money when you rent fewer discs, at a given price.

And I FULLLLLLLLLLLLYYYYY support this Netflix policy, you rent-abuser, you! :p

[bizzy]

I think it has more to do with your past account history -- the faster you return your discs, the more you get shoved down in the queue. It sounds perverse, but Netflix makes more money when you rent fewer discs, at a given price.


Netflix lost a class-action lawsuit last year because of that policy, and has agreed to cease applying that rate limiting prioritization going forward.

[ashu]

I think they've now added the info about their throttling policy to the terms & conditions. But I could be wrong.

This is another action of a class action that sucks, but that's just MnsHO!

[aaronwt]

They have never applied it to me though. I had months where I rented over 30 discs and they always sent them quickly. But I've also been a member of Netflix for 8+ years.

[mikeyts]

Netflix lost a class-action lawsuit last year because of that policy, and has agreed to cease applying that rate limiting prioritization going forward.The result of that suit was that they more clearly described the policy in their Terms of Use so that people know what they're getting. They continue to use the policy unchanged. "Advertising" it in their terms of use hasn't hurt their business appreciably :).

From the ("How Our Service Works" section of their Terms Of Use:
Allocation, Delivery and Return of Rented DVDs
...
In determining priority for shipping and inventory allocation, we may utilize many different factors, including without limitation, the number and type of DVDs you rent through our service, the subscription plan you select, as well as other uses of our service by you. For example, if all other factors are the same, we give priority to those members who receive the fewest DVDs through our service. The type, number, mix and weighting of the various factors impacting shipping and inventory allocation will change from time to time and will be made in our sole and absolute discretion. As a result of your viewing habits and our operational practices, the actual number of DVDs you rent in any month may vary, and you may experience differentiated service during the course of your membership. Also, such service may be different from the service we provide to other members on the same membership plan. The type of differentiated service you may experience includes, without limitation, (i) the shipment of your next available DVD occurring at least one business day following return of your previously viewed movie, (ii) delivery taking longer, as the shipments may not be sent from your local distribution center and (iii) the movies you receive coming from lower in your queue more often than our other subscribers. These effects will not occur unless we are faced with limited inventory at your local distribution center or when the number of shipments to be processed by that distribution center on that day is exceeded. In our unlimited plans, we do not establish a monthly limit on the number of DVDs you can rent.
...I love that all they were required to do (and that all they chose to do) was clarify the policy. Score one for big business :).

[aaronwt]

Actually they gave everyone a free month or a free update to the next level of service. Something like that. I remember getting an email or letter about it but they couldn't increase my level becasue at the time I was at the highest service level they had.

[ashu]

The result of that suit was that they more clearly described the policy in their Terms of Use so that people know what they're getting. They continue to use the policy unchanged. "Advertising" it in their terms of use hasn't hurt their business appreciably :).

From the ("How Our Service Works" section of their Terms Of Use:
I love that all they were required to do (and that all they chose to do) was clarify the policy. Score one for big business :).

I think that's because the 'rent-abusers' know this is a reasonable and fair policy :)

I absolutely agree that IMPLYING there was no such policy and then applying it was wrong, but admitting it and applying it - a rare show of (enforced, but still) honesty by a big business :)

[MichaelK]

Since the Amazon Unbox movies are .wmv format but downloads will be allowed to both Tivo S2 and Tivo S3 boxes at some point I assume they are going to be transcoded to mpeg2 before they are stored on the Tivo, meaning they will lose quality. ....


assuming they just dont create the tivo encodings from the original source

[pmiranda]

assuming they just dont create the tivo encodings from the original source

I'd assume they take the original source and have to generate up to 4 separate files:

* PC "DVD quality"
* Mobile device
* SD TiVo
* HD TiVo

Storage space for duplicate files should be cheaper than compute power to transcode on the fly.

[CharlesH]

The result of that suit was that they more clearly described the policy in their Terms of Use so that people know what they're getting. They continue to use the policy unchanged. "Advertising" it in their terms of use hasn't hurt their business appreciably :).

From the ("How Our Service Works" section of their Terms Of Use:
I love that all they were required to do (and that all they chose to do) was clarify the policy. Score one for big business :).Verizon Wireless had a similar situation. The Motorola V710 was advertised to have Bluetooth. They neglected to mention that they had had Motorola disable all profiles except the headset profile, so that you would have to use their $$ service to download or upload ringtones, pictures, and such. Since essentially all other Bluetooth-capable phones include these file-transfer profiles, customers naively assumed that VZW's did also. :rolleyes: Like for NetFlix, the resolution of the lawsuit over this issue was for them to give a few trinkets to "misled" customers, and to put a prominent disclosure on the descriptions of the 710 functionality, including the box, and continue to offer the same restricted BlueTooth functionality. :mad:

[ashu]

Unfair analogy - Verizon is WAY MORE EVIL than Netflix.

A more accurate analogy would have been if Verizon started toning down features dynamically for those folks who used the most free minutes or came closest to maxing out their contract minutes/messages, as opposed to those who used only 100 minutes of a 400 minute plan and continued to be able to use Bluetooth :)

Instead, they crippled the phone for everyone to make everyone spend more than they realized they would have to, or be able to do less with the phone/network than they were miseld into believing they would be able to!

Verizon = Evil Personified

Netflix = Evil, like any profitable business

:)

[MichaelK]

I'd assume they take the original source and have to generate up to 4 separate files:

* PC "DVD quality"
* Mobile device
* SD TiVo
* HD TiVo

Storage space for duplicate files should be cheaper than compute power to transcode on the fly.

we can HOPE there is that fourth transode on the way!

[mikeyts]

My point about the Netflix suit was that Netflix apologized for having misled customers but did not change their policy. That was definitely not the result that the people who brought the suit were seeking--they were trying to force Netflix to change their business model, which wasn't something that Netflix had developed with malicious intent. Now everyone is properly informed and can decide whether Netflix serves their needs and if not, can move on to another provider. That's how consumers affect business policy--by deciding where to spend their dollars. If everyone objects to the way you do business then you'll either modify your model or let your business die. If a business can satisfy its goals while using policies which are objectionable to small percentage of its customers then it should be able to operate with those policies (unless they violate basic human rights, like discriminating on the basis of customer religion or race or some such). You can't make everybody happy.

[Grakthis]

All of your theatrical-release DVDs are encrypted with DRM on them. Unbox videos can be downloaded onto two devices simultaneously, being any combination of Windows PCs and/or TiVos.

Well, DVDs are only loosly DRM. It's simply encoding in a method that is widely known and licensed. There are hundreds of free decoders for DVD video.

DRM typically refers to a process of verifying permissions with a 3rd party server of some kind and licensing of it is limited or non-existant. But fair enough.

[mikeyts]

DRM typically refers to a process of verifying permissions with a 3rd party server of some kind and licensing of it is limited or non-existant. But fair enough.I'd strongly disagree with that definition. DRM in no way implies the involvement of online rights servers. Any system marking a digital media set with a declaration of the copyright holders' permissions for handling it is DRM; it doesn't even have to involve encryption.

Your definition of it is totally negative; the term DRM is used by the people who sell DRM systems, who certainly wouldn't choose to define it that way. Microsoft's WMDRM product (which they introduced 8 years ago) is probably the most popular DRM system in use and licensing for it is freely for sale. The only common thing that I can think of that would fit your definition is Apple's "FairPlay" system, which they've declined to license to this point to anyone other than Motorola (for use in iTunes playing mobile phones), which is the reason why I'll never own an iPod product :rolleyes: .

[moyekj]

Well, this may put a crimp on movie downloads in general, especially when HD movies become available:
Putting a lid on broadband use (http://news.com.com/2100-1034_3-5079624.html)
Cox Communications started phasing in hard usage limits in February, and now a majority of that company's subscribers are limited to downloading 2 gigabytes a day--the equivalent of about two compressed feature-length movies or about 400 MP3 songs. AOL Time Warner's Road Runner cable modem service recently instituted download caps of 40 gigabytes per month.

Comcast's policy has proven most controversial. The company's terms of service say only that users cannot "represent (in the sole judgment of Comcast) an unusually large burden on the network." According to a spokeswoman, the company began sending notes about two months ago to the top 1 percent of the heaviest users--people who collectively use about 28 percent of the company's bandwidth--telling them they were violating their terms of service. Kind of ironic since Cox and others focus marketing on their fat broadband pipes to lure customers in - just don't use the pipes once you've signed up!
So, you heavy Unbox users watch out - you may make the watch list soon...

[pl1]

Putting a lid on broadband use (http://news.com.com/2100-1034_3-5079624.html) Not for nothing, but did you even notice how old that article is? I read your snip and I recognized it!

Published: September 22, 2003, 4:00 AM PDT

[Fofer]

Not for nothing, but did you even notice how old that article is? I read your snip and I recognized it!

Published: September 22, 2003, 4:00 AM PDT

Still relevant... this is from yesterday:
http://www.boston.com/business/personaltech/articles/2007/03/12/not_so_fast_broadband_providers_tell_big_users/

TCF discussion here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=344151

[pl1]

Still relevant... this is from yesterday:
http://www.boston.com/business/personaltech/articles/2007/03/12/not_so_fast_broadband_providers_tell_big_users/

TCF discussion here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=344151I didn't say it wasn't relevant, only that it is OLD news. Comcast has been warning (and shutting off) people for a long time. I don't know anything about Cox, though. But bandwidth abusers from Comcast have been complaining about this for the last 3 years.

[ashu]

And according to discussions on broadbandreports.com, Comcast's policy kicks in only
- when folks exceed a percentage of the locally used bandwidth, AND
- others complani, justifiably, about corresponding limitations to their serrvice because of said 'abuser'
- and downloads exceed approximately 200+ GB per month (according to reports from those who HAVE been banned - not anything official from the company)

Difficult to exceed that number! But then, what do I know?

[MichaelK]

ATT studied the effects of "unlimited" plans like unlimited local calls, unlimited long distance, and lastly unlimited internet before they ceased to exist (the OLD ATT this was). THey found that such plans basically benifit 10% of the population and screw the other 90%. It seems the ATT math was that the top 10% of users use 90% of the bandwidth. So the bottom 90% is way overpaying for networks that the top 10% need. If so I don't think comcast thottling 0.1% of their users is just some evil plan to maximize profits- it's a semi-legit method to keep the netowrk capacity to a more reasonable size so that everyone doesn't have to pay more. But they should tell those people what "acceptable" is so they can police themselves.

If you read the 2003 article and the current ones it seems that it's not the volume you use but the fact that it's big compared to whats "normal"- in 2003 that was measured in the tens of gigs. In 2006/7 it's hundreds of gigs. If 20% of their users are downloading unbox movies then they will need to increase thir capacity to handle it but if it's just 0.1% and those folks are downloading 5 HD movies a day they it's probably smarter to throttle those people rather than spend the money to upgrade the network.

What I find most intersting about the topic is that the idiot DBS company's think that the cable company's are gling to allow them to do their VOD over cable's broadband. If that happens I think you will quickly see some more evil type caps meant to make dbs VOD difficult.

[Amnesia]

Comcast's policy kicks in only [when] others complani, justifiably, about corresponding limitations to their serrvice because of said 'abuser'It only kicks in when other complain justifiably? OK, then it never kicks in!

It's never justifiable to put limits on plans that describe themselves as "unlimited".

[MichaelK]

It only kicks in when other complain justifiably? OK, then it never kicks in!

It's never justifiable to put limits on plans that describe themselves as "unlimited".


so you would be cool if your cable company doubled the rates everyone pays so that the cable company can afford to buy twice as much fiber space from the top level ISP's and then double their internal netword and finally run a fiber straight to the one guy on your block to download HD porn 24/7/365 to 10 pc's in his house at his line's max rated speed?

There's a legit argument (legit to have- I'm not sure exatly what my opinion is) that the people that force the network to be 10 times more robust pay more then the rest of the users.

Regardless it's just unacceptable not to spell out what the limits are- or at least when you "warn" the person tell them what standard they are being held to?

[Amnesia]

There's a legit argument (legit to have- I'm not sure exatly what my opinion is) that the people that force the network to be 10 times more robust pay more then the rest of the users. I have no problem with that. If they spell out the limits and people can choose from a variety of plans, then that's fine.

What's unacceptable is to advertise something as being "unlimited"---and sign people up with that description and then in reality enforce unknown limits.

[MichaelK]

all this talk made me go read my TOS from my cable provider to go with my 10/1 line. Seems all they limit me to is "5 users" and I cant host any applications or run any servers.

So I guess i can download to my hearts content.

I wonder what consitutes a "user". Do my 3 broadband connected Tivo's count as users? What about my always on PC that runs my home automation stuff- if it downloads a MS patch in the middle of the night is it a "user"? What if I have a pc with myself logged and downloading a big file and then i switch users and my wife log's in at the same time and surfs the web- is that 2 users?

[MichaelK]

I have no problem with that. If they spell out the limits and people can choose from a variety of plans, then that's fine.

What's unacceptable is to advertise something as being "unlimited"---and sign people up with that description and then in reality enforce unknown limits.

completely and wholly agree.

..

Regardless it's just unacceptable not to spell out what the limits are- or at least when you "warn" the person tell them what standard they are being held to.

(fixed the questin mark into a period...)

[moyekj]

all this talk made me go read my TOS from my cable provider to go with my 10/1 line. Seems all they limit me to is "5 users" and I cant host any applications or run any servers.... I wonder what consitutes a "user". Do my 3 broadband connected Tivo's count as users? What about my always on PC that runs my home automation stuff- if it downloads a MS patch in the middle of the night is it a "user"? What if I have a pc with myself logged and downloading a big file and then i switch users and my wife log's in at the same time and surfs the web- is that 2 users? # users definition makes no sense to me either especially if you are sitting behind a router (which would be the norm for most users) - then the interface on the WAN side would appear to be 1 MAC address - how could they possibly know how many "users" are on the LAN side of your router? Perhaps if you are using the switch on the cable modem (or connecting to modem using a switch instead of a router) there is a limit of 5 dynamically assigned IPs? Who knows. If this really is intended to be #users limit I bet there are many people violating the TOS, possibly even without their knowledge - for example those with wireless routers with no or insufficient security enabled.

[ashu]

Amnesia, I DO see your point, and I DO agree they should change their TOS/wording, but, just like in Netflix' case, the warnings are justifiable as is the (unwritten) policy. I also agree that such a policy should be well spelled out.

Maybe, just as in the Netflix throttling case, they need to be forced to include more precise TOS entries. Smart lawyers should be able to word it such that folks will no longer take issue with it, and either stay on as customers or upgrade to different bandwidth plans or providers.

[pl1]

Maybe, just as in the Netflix throttling case, they need to be forced to include more precise TOS entries. Smart lawyers should be able to word it such that folks will no longer take issue with it, and either stay on as customers or upgrade to different bandwidth plans or providers.Just about every company offering anything unlimited is stretching the truth. But some companies are creative. If you read the TOS of Vonage, you'll find that using your phone over a certain number of minutes will push you into a business class of service, of course, charging you more. No one knows for sure how many minutes it takes, though.

We reserve the right to immediately disconnect or
modify your Service if we determine, in our sole and
absolute discretion, that your use of the Service or
the Device is, or at any time was, inconsistent with
normal residential usage patterns. In addition, you
will be required to pay our higher rates for commercial
service for all periods in which your use of the Service
or the Device was inconsistent with normal residential use.

[texaslabrat]

# users definition makes no sense to me either especially if you are sitting behind a router (which would be the norm for most users) - then the interface on the WAN side would appear to be 1 MAC address - how could they possibly know how many "users" are on the LAN side of your router? Perhaps if you are using the switch on the cable modem (or connecting to modem using a switch instead of a router) there is a limit of 5 dynamically assigned IPs? Who knows. If this really is intended to be #users limit I bet there are many people violating the TOS, possibly even without their knowledge - for example those with wireless routers with no or insufficient security enabled.

It *is* possible through analysis of the ip streams to determine the number of physical machines behind a nat'd device using a broadband connection.

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/02/05/2129218

However, I don't know of any major ISP's who are actually doing it...especially that some recent IP stacks have implemented counter-measures to such analysis through the addition of pseudo-random header id numbers. Just a bit of trivia for ya ;) (ps love those necro threads LOL, but it seemed appropriate in light of Comcast's recent bandwidth cap announcements).