Battlestar Galactica "Dirty Hands" Episode #315 2/25/2007 *spoilers*

[Kamakzie]

Last weeks ep wasn't horrible so heres hoping to an even better episode.. :D

[Anubys]

I liked it...Baltar is one smart cookie...

and I like the new nugget...she's cute...

[DLL66]

Two weeks ago I mentioned that BSG is getting back on track, and here it is! To me, this sort of reminds me of a chapter out of early American industrial revolution.

[Kamakzie]

The new nugget has been on BSG before I think. I gotta believe Adama was bluffing about blowing Cally away but I guess in a war situation people take desperate measures.

[hefe]

I didn't think from the previews that I was going to like this one, but I have to say...I actually did. Pretty well done for a non-cylon episode.

[gchance]

"Hey! The conveyor's jammed! Tyrol, go under! Wait, Tyrol can't do it, who could we find that will cause controversy to get the plot train rolling? How about a kid?!?! Hey, could you bring in a... hey! How about the kid who's not a farmer! Kid, go fix it, but make sure you're maimed in the process. Good show, good show!"

Other than that, it was great.

Greg

[DLL66]

"Hey! The conveyor's jammed! Tyrol, go under! Wait, Tyrol can't do it, who could we find that will cause controversy to get the plot train rolling? How about a kid?!?! Hey, could you bring in a... hey! How about the kid who's not a farmer! Kid, go fix it, but make sure you're maimed in the process. Good show, good show!"

Other than that, it was great.

Greg


I really could see this happening. In fact, I see this happening one way or another at least a couple of times a year at work. Not to the extent of kid getting maimed. But to the point of a kid, in training, who has limited mechanical experience who think they can fix anything underneath the stars and just jacking it up worse!

[mjh]

WARNING: I hope that this post does not cross the boundary into political discussion. It might, and if it does, my apologies. That being said, the episode was about a particular form of political philosophy. So it's going to be hard to discuss this episode without risking crossing that line.

I really found this episode to be offensive. I don't know how work is compensated in the BSG fleet, but it would appear that it's unpaid labor. It's definately conscript labor. Those people are slaves. Slaves do not have the option of leaving a job that's too much work for them. Free people do. Free people have the option of saying, "I don't want this job". And free people do that all the time. They prefer poverty with some amount of leisure to non-stop work.

The problem in the BSG society isn't "bifurcation" it's lack of freedom. Freedom is the basis of making a decision about how much time you're willing to work and about willingness to leave that job if it's costing you not just the time that you put into the job, but also your health, your hobbies, your dreams. Free people decide not to do those jobs.

And then other free people who need that work have a decision. Do they increase the price that they're willing to pay for the labor that they want? If not, then the job dies and both sides are relatively happy. The workers don't have to do a job that cost them too much and the employers don't have to pay extra for something that's not worth it. But maybe it is worth it, and they have to increase the wages. The increased wages will attract more people to the job. And both sides will be happy: the workers for having more freetime since there's more laborers, and the employers for getting the product of the labor.

My problem with this episode is that it painted a picture of a society in which it's right to allocate workers. It's right to have someone at the top making allocation decisions that impact the people below. Society should be hierarchical. You just need to make sure that the people in the upper hierarchies make good decisions. I find this entirely and utterly wrong. There is no one who can do that. They will always be corrupted. The solution isn't top down resource allocation. It's market based allocation. Putting everyone's ability to make decisions into play instead of only one or a few people's abilities. Using pricing and wages as a signaling mechanism to add/remove resources. And the interpreters of that signaling mechanism is everyone who buys/sells anything. That's capitalism, which depends on freedom. But in this episode there was no freedom. Instead there was hierarchical allocation of conscripted laborers. What we saw there was communism and the results of it were misery and suffering and lack of freedom.

What was the solution? More hierarchical top-down resource allocation. Not a discussion of how to ensure more freedom for people. Rather how to better engineer the society. BSG is full of human beings, that are supposed to be like us. Engineered societies have not worked for us. They won't work for BSG, either.

[DLL66]

WARNING: I hope that this post does not cross the boundary into political discussion. It might, and if it does, my apologies. That being said, the episode was about a particular form of political philosophy. So it's going to be hard to discuss this episode without risking crossing that line.

I really found this episode to be offensive. I don't know how work is compensated in the BSG fleet, but it would appear that it's unpaid labor. It's definately conscript labor. Those people are slaves. Slaves do not have the option of leaving a job that's too much work for them. Free people do. Free people have the option of saying, "I don't want this job". And free people do that all the time. They prefer poverty with some amount of leisure to non-stop work.

The problem in the BSG society isn't "bifurcation" it's lack of freedom. Freedom is the basis of making a decision about how much time you're willing to work and about willingness to leave that job if it's costing you not just the time that you put into the job, but also your health, your hobbies, your dreams. Free people decide not to do those jobs.

And then other free people who need that work have a decision. Do they increase the price that they're willing to pay for the labor that they want? If not, then the job dies and both sides are relatively happy. The workers don't have to do a job that cost them too much and the employers don't have to pay extra for something that's not worth it. But maybe it is worth it, and they have to increase the wages. The increased wages will attract more people to the job. And both sides will be happy: the workers for having more freetime since there's more laborers, and the employers for getting the product of the labor.

My problem with this episode is that it painted a picture of a society in which it's right to allocate workers. It's right to have someone at the top making allocation decisions that impact the people below. Society should be hierarchical. You just need to make sure that the people in the upper hierarchies make good decisions. I find this entirely and utterly wrong. There is no one who can do that. They will always be corrupted. The solution isn't top down resource allocation. It's market based allocation. Putting everyone's ability to make decisions into play instead of only one or a few people's abilities. Using pricing and wages as a signaling mechanism to add/remove resources. And the interpreters of that signaling mechanism is everyone who buys/sells anything. That's capitalism, which depends on freedom. But in this episode there was no freedom. Instead there was hierarchical allocation of conscripted laborers. What we saw there was communism and the results of it were misery and suffering and lack of freedom.

What was the solution? More hierarchical top-down resource allocation. Not a discussion of how to ensure more freedom for people. Rather how to better engineer the society. BSG is full of human beings, that are supposed to be like us. Engineered societies have not worked for us. They won't work for BSG, either.

In some ways you are correct. The "Big Picture" here is that the 12 Colonies are still at war with the Cylons. Their main purpose is to survive. The Colonies just got the beat down from the Cylons and they are behind with repairs, scheduled maintenance and what not. They have been working long hours to survive to flee the Cylons. Yes, people need some down time and that is what Chief is trying to get the President to realize and also to expand the opportunities for the children to other types of careers. Before capitalism can be established, they need to do what ever it takes to survive and conquer the cyclons.

[cwerdna]

Bleh, yet another filler episode for the most part. I guess it was better than The Woman King. If they have too many more of these, the show will be gone after season 4.0/4a.

Next week's ep looks more promising.

[yaddayaddayadda]

The only think that really bugged me was the fact that it was Baltar inciting the lower class.

I would put the opinion of Baltar among people in the fleet (especially Tyroll) somewhere lower than hitler/stalin/saddam et al.

No way he'd become a hero of the working class. It would have had a bit more believability if they dusted off Zarek to be the one writing these manifestos.

and +1 to GChance's comment.

[TAsunder]

I didn't like this episode. In fact I'd rank it as among the worst in the series. It was ambitious and it tried to be challenging, but it felt really off. It seems like the writers will make adama and roslin do whatever it takes to make a plot interesting. Roslin did not seem in character throughout the show, until the very end when she was talking with the chief. The rest of the episode she was mysteriously tyrannical. Adama has been rude before but this was way over the top and preposterous as far as I am concerned.

The episode still might have worked if it had presented a better argument on both sides. The way it presented this "issue" was extremely cliched. I thought for sure they were going to start calling each other communists at some point and bring in chris cooper to lay the smack down.

One thing I realized, though, is that baltar is such a charismatic guy that he needs to be at the forefront of BSG at all times. I could watch 40 minutes of baltar talking to himself in his cell each week. Sort of like monologues from god emperor of dune.

[Bierboy]

I didn't think from the previews that I was going to like this one, but I have to say...I actually did. Pretty well done for a non-cylon episode.EXACTLY my thoughts...I was very pleasantly surprised...very fast hour.

[Skittles]

I didn't like this episode. In fact I'd rank it as among the worst in the series. It was ambitious and it tried to be challenging, but it felt really off. It seems like the writers will make adama and roslin do whatever it takes to make a plot interesting. Roslin did not seem in character throughout the show, until the very end when she was talking with the chief. The rest of the episode she was mysteriously tyrannical. Adama has been rude before but this was way over the top and preposterous as far as I am concerned.I am in complete agreement with you on this.

The Baltar subplot saved this episode from getting the same level of annoyance/frustration I had for The Woman King. The biggest problem I had with this episode is that for 38 of the 44 minutes, Roslin goes psycho. She's totally out of character and her refusal to listen to Chief Tyrol or whathisname from the Tylium Refinery goes against the person she is. We saw in a flashback, during season 2, that Roslin was willing to negotiate on behalf of a teacher's union who just wanted fairer treatment. She even went against President Adar's orders to do so, because she felt it was right.

That's kind of what bothers me most. Roslin has always been a "Do something, because it's the right thing to do" kind of woman. And to see her for the majority of the episode do exactly opposite of that was a huge annoyance. What's more, at the end of the episode, she just magically has a change of heart for no substantial reason.

Ugh. I kinda miss the days when the series only had 13 episodes per season. No filler episodes. Are there still Cylons out there?

[sackman]

I found it highly implausible that Tyrol had access to Baltar, especially with the leaked pages causing a mini-uprising in the fleet.

[Skittles]

I found it highly implausible that Tyrol had access to Baltar, especially with the leaked pages causing a mini-uprising in the fleet.Not to mention that, just a few weeks ago, we (the audience) were specifically told that Baltar was forbidden all visitors, and even Gaeta (a former colleague of Baltar's) was barred from seeing him until he was given authorization by the President.

Then Tyrol, who doesn't even know Baltar that well, just waltzed right in.

[dcheesi]

In some ways you are correct. The "Big Picture" here is that the 12 Colonies are still at war with the Cylons. Their main purpose is to survive. The Colonies just got the beat down from the Cylons and they are behind with repairs, scheduled maintenance and what not. They have been working long hours to survive to flee the Cylons. Yes, people need some down time and that is what Chief is trying to get the President to realize and also to expand the opportunities for the children to other types of careers. Before capitalism can be established, they need to do what ever it takes to survive and conquer the cyclons.Right, they simply don't have the luxury of a true economy. Rather than calling them slaves, another way to look at it is that they've all been drafted. Same loss of freedom, same "whims of fate" selection system (and consider that the other 99% of the eligible workforce died instead). And ultimately the same justification: their being pulled from their own individual lives to defend the nation, or in this case the entire race(!), that they are a part of.

[hefe]

My problem with this episode is that it painted a picture of a society in which it's right to allocate workers.
But the whole point is that it's an extreme situation that makes the choices harder.

This society is comprised of only ~50,000 people running from annihilation, which could conceivably happen at any moment, in the isolation of space with a shortage of resources and personnel.

[Jonathan_S]

The problem in the BSG society isn't "bifurcation" it's lack of freedom. Freedom is the basis of making a decision about how much time you're willing to work and about willingness to leave that job if it's costing you not just the time that you put into the job, but also your health, your hobbies, your dreams. Free people decide not to do those jobs.
[snip]
Engineered societies have not worked for us. They won't work for BSG, either.You have a point that as a long term solution for society their present setup is really bad. But they have to survive the short term. And they have a really small group, so small that market forces can be screwed up easily by just a few people.

Keep in mind that the total human race available for all the work that must be done if the fleet is going to function and continue to run from the Cylons is less than a big company in the present. (Ford motor co had ~300,000; the fleet has ~48,000).

That is such a small pool, and most people with skill are needed more than they are available, that anyone switching to a job they prefer before a replacement is ready is likely to impact the survival ability of the fleet. If it takes 6 months to take a bureaucrat and turn them into a refinery operator you flat out won't survive half your refinery operators deciding they'd rather be unemployed.

Also even the US, during war footing, it has been a crime to interfere with a war industry. You worked on your assigned war essential production, you got drafted (and possibly assigned back to work on war essential production), or you went to jail.


Now I do think the fleet had been on an unplanned emergency footing for too long with everyone too worried about the current crisis to worry about long term planning.

They should have started working up training programs earlier to try to ease the load on their critical workers and get more people cross trained so they could shift between different critical jobs. Not only for worker freedom and happiness, but also for damage control and survivability.

But with their small size and desperate situation I don't know if they can afford to try to transition to an economy where highly skilled people can decide they've burned out and would be happy mopping the decks of Colonial 1.

[vman41]

I think the themes of the script resonate more with the British audience more than the American, we're just not class-conscious the way they are in Britain. The book thing was kind of Orwellian.

[TAsunder]

Sorry but the argument "for" forced labor makes no sense in this context. Maybe I'm missing something. If humans are down to some 48,000 people left, you wouldn't want to just be losing workers left and right due to insanely unsafe working conditions, or even mental disabilities due to no time off. Child labor wouldn't be acceptable by any stretch of the imagination. Especially not with a TEACHER as president.

[hefe]

The fleet, and the human race, is in an insanely unsafe condition. These are supposed to be unimaginable circumstances. It came to a head, and they finally dealt with it, and are now working to improve conditions, but initially, the need for fuel was so basic and fundamental to survival, that they could not allow its production to be used as a bargaining chip. It was necessary to take that off the table, and do it unequivocally. Whether or not it was the right way to do it, I can see it being something that could logically happen in such a situation.

[TAsunder]

The fleet, and the human race, is in an insanely unsafe condition. These are supposed to be unimaginable circumstances. It came to a head, and they finally dealt with it, and are now working to improve conditions, but initially, the need for fuel was so basic and fundamental to survival, that they could not allow its production to be used as a bargaining chip. It was necessary to take that off the table, and do it unequivocally. Whether or not it was the right way to do it, I can see it being something that could logically happen in such a situation.

Rubbish. Your first line is at best a throwaway slogan based on a logical fallacy, at worst some sort of propoganda. The human race may be on the run but very few people are in danger of death just from doing their job. I find it unlikely that we are to assume that all people everywhere are working with no days off. If there is that much need for labor then any rational society would recruit more workers and reward the workers. We don't need 50 journalists following the president around, etc.

The whole plot was set up poorly as a mirror for some pseudo-intellectual examination of history, and it didn't work. If I wanted to watch something about labor disputes and unionization, I'll rent Matewan or similar movies.

[Rob Helmerichs]

It came to a head, and they finally dealt with it...
Except of course, this being Battlestar Galactica, it didn't "come to a head"; it came completely out of the blue.

I was also amused at the Baltar retcon--so he comes from a place that has a different accent, but he changed his accent to a Caprican accent to fit in. Only his Caprican accent is completely different from all the other Caprican accents (which are American accents, even when spoken by Irish actors). In fact, his Caprican accent is a lot closer to the one that he's trying to hide than to all the other Caprican accents...

[hefe]

Rubbish. Your first line is at best a throwaway slogan based on a logical fallacy, at worst some sort of propoganda. The human race may be on the run but very few people are in danger of death just from doing their job. I find it unlikely that we are to assume that all people everywhere are working with no days off. If there is that much need for labor then any rational society would recruit more workers and reward the workers. We don't need 50 journalists following the president around, etc.

The whole plot was set up poorly as a mirror for some pseudo-intellectual examination of history, and it didn't work. If I wanted to watch something about labor disputes and unionization, I'll rent Matewan or similar movies.
BTW, in case you have forgotten, this is fiction, and liberties are often taken to make points or serve plot. You'll just have to deal with the imperfection.

[Jonathan_S]

Rubbish. Your first line is at best a throwaway slogan based on a logical fallacy, at worst some sort of propoganda. The human race may be on the run but very few people are in danger of death just from doing their job. I find it unlikely that we are to assume that all people everywhere are working with no days off. If there is that much need for labor then any rational society would recruit more workers and reward the workers. We don't need 50 journalists following the president around, etc.We don't need 50 journalists, but we haven't seen that many for a while.

One of the problems with trying to just "recruit more workers" is that any new workers are untrained. The only people with the skills to train them are the existing workers. They could only make time for doing that by working longer hours or reducing their output to divert time to training.

Neither of those might be practical.

Also, the unload half the fleet onto New Caprica, followed by the hasty evacuation would also have screwed up any attempts to rationalize the work allocation. They'd have been in a much better position if they'd used that year break from the Cylons to do a refit, R&R, real census of skills, and set up training programs to get the fleet in better mechanical shape, get the workers spread around better, and get new people trained. But instead they wasted it trying to set up a new colony which then had to be abandoned.

[whitson77]

Remember back in the day when there used to be space battles...

[Jonathan_S]

Remember back in the day when there used to be space battles...
Yeah, those were good. Bring back the space battles.

[sackman]

Yeah, those were good. Bring back the space battles.

I have a feeling that they blew their special effects budget for the season on the New Caprica episodes.

[Sirius Black]

or perhaps they are saving up the remainder of their budget for something forthcoming.

[Rob Helmerichs]

or perhaps they are saving up the remainder of their budget for something forthcoming.
But that would imply planning ahead... :D

[mjh]

The whole plot was set up poorly as a mirror for some pseudo-intellectual examination of history, and it didn't work.I agree with this. We can call it being drafted if you want. But that just reminds me of the great rejoinder that Milton Friedman came up with when advocating elimination of the draft in the US. He was talking to a general who said that he didn't want an army of mercenaries. To which Friedman (the skilled debator) answered, "But you'd prefer an army of slaves?" In my opinion, there is no difference between conscription and slavery.

As far as the comments that in the BSG world this is a very odd situation in which they're forced to impose conscription to survive, I would say this: it is when resources are scarce that a market is most effective. The market is the mechanism by which the relative scarcity of the resources is communicated as well as the relative importance of the product of those resources. The communication mechanism is fungible money. The situation is made even worse if you don't have a market in place to apportion the incredibly scarce resources.

This episode is ignorant of economics. It's ignorant of how people respond to incentives and disincentives. It's ignorant of how much information is lost when you don't have a system of prices an in place. And that lost information will always lead to misery and suffering. That ignorance is a fatal flaw. The solution in the episode was more top-down resource allocation. It suggests that it might be a viable solution for the real world. That is a very dangerous suggestion.

[hefe]

You guys need to relax. Just like most of us have given up on the accuracy of technical details and laws of physics, the same applies to the laws of economics.

The story they wanted to tell was supported by fictional details that they can adjust at their whim. It suggests nothing about the real world. It exists only in the world of Galactica. Nobody is asserting that this is a good way to do it. Only that within the framework of the story and the situation and the universe of BSG, it is possible to understand that the characters might behave this way.

They had a story that they wanted to explore, and dedicated one episode to developing and executing it. On a sci-fi show. I think they did it rather well, considering the parameters they are working with. To take any real world lessons from it is just silly.

[jwjody]

Remember back in the day when there used to be space battles...
That's exactly what I thought when I started watching this episode.

or perhaps they are saving up the remainder of their budget for something forthcoming.
And this is what I started hoping for.

J

[TAsunder]

I don't mind flawed economics. What I mind is totally fabricated human stories that aren't even plausible in the world of BSG. When you combine that with totally inconsistent character writing, this episode compounds nonsense with more nonsense.

This show is heading off the deep end. The show is best when it shows us lots of cylon activity. The cylons are interesting. Baltar is interesting. Human stories that are straight out of an after-school treatment of history are not interesting. BSG should know its limits. It is clear from this season and last that the writers are incapable of offering an interesting assessment of strictly human issues such as labor during war, etc. If each episode is going to be a stand-alone episode about some thinly veiled rehash of modern history, it's going to lose most of its audience, unless they start doing a better job of it.

Or, put another way, I'd rather watch a doctor who episode about labor strikes than a bsg episode about labor strikes. It would probably be more intelligent about the topic. At least the weird behavior would end up being slimy aliens with weird catch phrases and not people we have seen in the last 3 seasons of a show.

[Billyh1026]

Almost zero special FX and character interaction in a refinery ship = an episode that they made to save $$.

I thought this was easily the worst BSG episode so far.
1. I don't care about the people shoveling Tylium.
2. Why are there people shoveling Tylium anyway? Certainly, by now they've figured out a way to automate the process way beyond the early 20th century. What a joke!!
3. Baltar and his writings make him a man of the people after selling them out? Puuuuulease
4. These people need to quit whining, shut-up, and go to work. In case they haven't noticed, they're getting their butts handed to them on a plater by the Cylon's. AND, there's only 50,000 people in the whole friggin universe left.

I could go on and on but I'll stop there. Sci-fi owes me almost an hour of my life back as far as I'm concerned...

[TAsunder]

Except... they must have blown a lot of $ on that scene with the failing raptor engine. Although they apparently saved some money by not filming the scene where the raptor actually hit the president's ship.

[jradford]

This show is heading off the deep end.
Quite possibly.
The show is best when it shows us lots of cylon activity. The cylons are interesting. Baltar is interesting. Human stories that are straight out of an after-school treatment of history are not interesting.
No doubt.
BSG should know its limits.
It doesn't.
It is clear from this season and last that the writers are incapable of offering an interesting assessment of strictly human issues such as labor during war, etc. If each episode is going to be a stand-alone episode about some thinly veiled rehash of modern history, it's going to lose most of its audience, unless they start doing a better job of it.

Again, I agree entirely, but, like you, I'm still watching. Most likely, I'll be watching to the bitter end. For me, this was another in a long line of frustrating episodes, but, at the very least, there is a glimmer of hope that with all this new tryllium(sp?) the fleet will have plenty of fuel for more cylon battles. Obviously, the cylon's are just giving the fleet a chance to fuel up. :D

[cheesesteak]

What happened to this show? Stop preaching at me and blow some sh*t up!

Thank you.

[WinBear]

I thought this was a pivotal episode in setting up future conflicts between the "haves" and the "have nots" as well as setting up Baltar for his post-trial "man of the people" idiocy.

I did think that the President knew something had to improve, but needed the situation to be tenable before negotiating. I think she did the right thing, although I was worried for a bit.

In other news, I was surprised to see Samantha Ferris (The 4400, Supernatural) on the deck crew as Pollux. I figured the other 2 recurring roles would be enough to keep her busy.

[GregA]

You guys are too much. This is nothing but a tired, overused re-hashing of Karl Marx's "Communist Manifesto" (Don't believe me? Read it; I have). Opening line: "The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles." Bourgeois, Proletarians, leader was a poor kid from an abused race (in Marx's case, a Jewish German) and comes from a poverty-stricken part of the world, worked his way up but was kept from ultimate success due to his base class, blah, blah, blah...

Man, what are they teaching you kids today in school...rap music?

What happened to this show? Stop preaching at me and blow some sh*t up!
See, here's a man with something important to say. Hear him!

[Billyh1026]

What happened to this show? Stop preaching at me and blow some sh*t up!

Thank you.

EXACTLY...almost... Here's the thing with BSG for me. It's a show predicated on one basic thing; Cylon vs Man. There's the Cylon attack, the escape, the search for Earth, and the relentless pursuit of man by cylon. Somewhere along the line they forgot about the pursuit/run away thing and decided to make the show into some sort of social commentary.

Oh, and while I'm at it, if I wanna watch Days of Our Lives I'll flip it to NBC...

[mrmike]

BSG isn't about cylon vs. human, it's about the nature of humanity. It's about how we deal with adversity and what we dream and why we do the things we do.

As far as the lack of a free market, I'm not sure what would be fungible that wouldn't be rationed to the military (and thus devolve into a feudal arrangement). Any ideas from the econ-101 crowd?

[TAsunder]

BSG isn't about cylon vs. human, it's about the nature of humanity. It's about how we deal with adversity and what we dream and why we do the things we do.

You forgot the ellipses at the end and the "as told by a 5th grader".

[mrmike]

You forgot the ellipses at the end and the "as told by a 5th grader".

Well, that's about the average educational level you can expect from a TV viewer in the US, isn't it?

[lordargent]

And to see her for the majority of the episode do exactly opposite of that was a huge annoyance.

Maybe she was pissed off at all of the refinery workers because of raptor that hit her ship. You know, the impact that they implied was going to happen right before the commercial break, but we never actually get to see, you know the one that made me rewind thinking I had missed something.

/filler ep with no SFX budget. No impact, no explosion, not even an inside shot of the impact as it happened. Heck, I'm not even sure there was an impact.

[Anubys]

there are no flawed economics, only flawed analysis...

the workers are not slaves...they are not only supplying raw material, they are also receiving payment...

they are receiving food and they are receiving protection from a warship...I doubt either of those is not valuable to the "slaves"...

the economics works fine...they can stop working and then die of starvation or in a cylon attack when Galactica stops protecting them...

[Rob Helmerichs]

the workers are not slaves...they are not only supplying raw material, they are also receiving payment...

they are receiving food and they are receiving protection from a warship...I doubt either of those is not valuable to the "slaves"...
Well, slaves in the ante-bellum South received food and shelter, so does that mean they were paid workers and not slaves?

No, what made them slaves is that they were not free to leave their "jobs"...exactly like the workers in the fleet. The question that the show ultimately dodged is whether the conditions they are living under justify slavery, even as a temporary measure. But I think there can be no reasonable doubt that they are, in fact, slaves for any meaningful value of "slave."

[Anubys]

Well, slaves in the ante-bellum South received food and shelter, so does that mean they were paid workers and not slaves?

No, what made them slaves is that they were not free to leave their "jobs"...exactly like the workers in the fleet. The question that the show ultimately dodged is whether the conditions they are living under justify slavery, even as a temporary measure. But I think there can be no reasonable doubt that they are, in fact, slaves for any meaningful value of "slave."

all I was responding to was the argument that they were working for nothing and the economics of the relationship...they are the only people that can do a job...they were getting compensated very well for that job...they were simply negotiating for more...

If it were painted as "you're free to go, but you go to a ship that will get no food and no protection", they would have stayed and worked...bad negotiating on the part of the president...

but as far as supply & demand, the economy was operating perfectly...

[TAsunder]

Being fed enough to survive is well compensated? Is that a joke? Go to a ship that has no food and protection? What ship is that exactly? I didn't realize adama lets that one ship get bombed by cylons. How do you even know that they ARE fed? Maybe they have to pay for their food.

As far as supply & demand, it was working perfectly?! Huh?! Demand is high, supply is low, yet people who provide the high demand, low supplied resource have to work every day of the year, literally risk their lives, and have 12 year olds help... yeah ok, obviously that's what happens at any plant where they are "well compensated" for a resource that's in high demand and low supply...

[Anubys]

my point is that compensation can take on a lot of forms...in this case, it's more of a barter economy than a "gold" economy...

they provide a resource that is in high demand but also receive many that are equally in high demand in return...to say that they were not compensated or that the economic theories were out of whack was simply not looking at the equation in the proper context...

no need to get worked up over it...I was simply pointing out what I perceived to be a flaw in the way the economic principles were interpreted...

[Rob Helmerichs]

But I think it is significant that the discussion here is far deeper and more interesting than the one they had on the show. I just wish if they were going to raise the issue, they would deal with it in a serious manner, instead of trivializing and ultimately ignoring it.

[TAsunder]

Compensation is relative, not absolute. Just because they get to eat algae doesn't mean they are well-compensated. Everyone gets the algae, and some people probably have stashes of foie gras. The 50 journalists following roslin around get to eat algae too, probably. And they get to take showers and see their families. By your logic, or so it seems to me, even people in severe poverty here in the US are well compensated since they can get free food and shelter from the government.

[Anubys]

Compensation is relative, not absolute. Just because they get to eat algae doesn't mean they are well-compensated. Everyone gets the algae, and some people probably have stashes of foie gras. The 50 journalists following roslin around get to eat algae too, probably. And they get to take showers and see their families. By your logic, or so it seems to me, even people in severe poverty here in the US are well compensated since they can get free food and shelter from the government.

the journalists can't do what those people can do...it was addressed at the end of the ep...they recruited more people, they are training more people, they are forming a union...etc.

all the economic principles worked...when there was a problem, supply/demand issues stabilized the situation far better than force...

[TAsunder]

When did they explain that? I only recall them stereotyping people based on whether they've done physical labor. I'm pretty sure just about anyone could work in that factory and be no worse off than the kid whose arm got severed.

[Rob Helmerichs]

...they recruited more people...
No, they enslaved more people. They decided who was going to serve, and they took them.

[Anubys]

When did they explain that? I only recall them stereotyping people based on whether they've done physical labor. I'm pretty sure just about anyone could work in that factory and be no worse off than the kid whose arm got severed.

it takes a lot of skill to grab a bucket of sand and pour it over the mesh! :rolleyes:

:D

look, they said you need certain skills...they instituted some sort of draft lottery where only people that have - or may have - that skill were chosen...even when the U.S. had a draft lottery, some people were exempt...

btw: many posts say there are about 50,000 survivors...the count is down to 41,400 (or there abouts)...

[Crrink]

I thought this episode was dumb.
When your entire civilization has been murdered and the murderers are hot on your heels, with much bigger guns than you have, you shut your mouth and do your job.
It's not like these guys were making satin pillows for the Command staff's precious heads, they were refining the single most important element to *everyone's* survival.

Now, I do agree that Crazy Roslyn should have listened to the concerns and complaints of the Tylium refiners earlier - after all, Tylium in an important resource to her too.
But doing things like having a labor strike under these circumstances are not only treasonous, but suicidal.
You want to kill yourself? Go walk out the nearest airlock, but don't take me with you.

I don't think Adama was bluffing when he threatened to execute Callie. It's too bad the Chief had to be threatened in order to do the right thing.

[Billyh1026]

BSG isn't about cylon vs. human, it's about the nature of humanity. It's about how we deal with adversity and what we dream and why we do the things we do.Then I need it dumbed down to my level (i.e. cylon vs man). I'm looking for entertainment. I don't want a full-on psychological/sociological sermon. Give me a cylon vs man chess match, not man vs man checkers.

[doom1701]

Then I need it dumbed down to my level (i.e. cylon vs man). I'm looking for entertainment. I don't want a full-on psychological/sociological sermon. Give me a cylon vs man chess match, not man vs man checkers.

There's been a few episodes that were definately cylon vs. man, but most of the series has been about the human condition. Even the first episode of the regular series was like that--it wasn't about the Cylons, it was more about how the crew dealt with an unrelenting situation.

[TAsunder]

Then I need it dumbed down to my level (i.e. cylon vs man). I'm looking for entertainment. I don't want a full-on psychological/sociological sermon. Give me a cylon vs man chess match, not man vs man checkers.

Weird... you say you want it dumbed down but then you say you want chess and not checkers. Either your chess opponents are dumb or your checkers opponents are incredibly brilliant. :p

[Church AV Guy]

Almost zero special FX and character interaction in a refinery ship = an episode that they made to save $$.

I thought this was easily the worst BSG episode so far.
1. I don't care about the people shoveling Tylium.
2. Why are there people shoveling Tylium anyway? Certainly, by now they've figured out a way to automate the process way beyond the early 20th century. What a joke!!
3. Baltar and his writings make him a man of the people after selling them out? Puuuuulease
4. These people need to quit whining, shut-up, and go to work. In case they haven't noticed, they're getting their butts handed to them on a plater by the Cylon's. AND, there's only 50,000 people in the whole friggin universe left.

I could go on and on but I'll stop there. Sci-fi owes me almost an hour of my life back as far as I'm concerned...
:up: Absolutely. Your number 2 above was the very first thing that came to my mind. Let's see now, there were twelve colonies with high technology, to the point that space travel between the twelve worlds was commonplace. That should make the human population between twelve billion and sixty billion people. The Cylons attack, and now there are 40,400 people--that's about one out of 300 thousand to one out of 1.5 MILLION from before the war. I would call that a crisis. I would also call that reason to be concerned about the eventual survival of the entire race. At this point, for biodiversity if nothing else, everyone is precious.

With technology at a sophisticated enough level to allow common space travel, why are they using shovels and mini skip loaders for fuel refinement? That process should have been much more automated many generations ago. The workers might be maintaining the equipment, but not carrying around buckets of the stuff, pouring it through floor plating.

The only thing we really learned from this episode is that the total raw fuel supply is very, very small, and they need more of it or they'll be completely stranded.

If all the oxygen used by the fleet was manufactured by one oxygen ship, and the workers decided to go on strike, how do you think the rest of the fleet would respond when the air started to get thin? I guess the president, and the admiral think that some things are not negotiatable. Like oxygen, the fuel is necessary to keep everyone alive.

Baltar needs to be acquainted with the outside of an airlock.

People with knowledge, like Tyroll, need to be training others or the fleet is doomed anyway.

[Rob Helmerichs]

With technology at a sophisticated enough level to allow common space travel, why are they using shovels and mini skip loaders for fuel refinement? That process should have been much more automated many generations ago. The workers might be maintaining the equipment, but not carrying around buckets of the stuff, pouring it through floor plating.
You put me in the rare position of defending BG! :D

Yes, I'm sure their mining and refining facilities were very advanced. But they didn't have any mining and refining facilities with them when they fled the colonies. So what they have on the refining ship is just what they were able to cobble together from scratch. They were just lucky they had somebody who knew how to do it, or at least a really good guidebook...

[MasterCephus]

I think in this case, you have to forget economics and think about survival of the human race. You guys act like they go on strike and there is a minor problem. If there isn't enough fuel and a cylon attack happens, people die.

The fact is that whether you agree or not, at any point a cylon attack could occur. They aren't just exploring and can take breaks when they want to.

As far as the reporters, I don't think they were talking so much about the difference in jobs there, but the officers and the knuckleheads (or whatever name they used). Fact is that while it might not take a lot of expertise to dump a bucket over a conveyer belt, it does take quite a lot of training to fly a viper and kill cylons. To be honest, I would rather have the well trained person flying the viper rather than they having to take their rotation funneling fuel across a conveyer.

[Rob Helmerichs]

I think in this case, you have to forget economics and think about survival of the human race. You guys act like they go on strike and there is a minor problem. If there isn't enough fuel and a cylon attack happens, people die.
And that's why the show wimped out. Instead of saying slavery is necessary under the circumstances, they pretended it isn't slavery. But it is.

[Crrink]

You put me in the rare position of defending BG! :D

Yes, I'm sure their mining and refining facilities were very advanced. But they didn't have any mining and refining facilities with them when they fled the colonies. So what they have on the refining ship is just what they were able to cobble together from scratch. They were just lucky they had somebody who knew how to do it, or at least a really good guidebook...
I assume the refining ship was some sort of standard vehicle built specifically to refine Tylium in order to supply other ships with fuel.
I don't recall anyone ever saying that they had to cobble together a crude, dirty, dangerous refinery because they didn't have any in the fleet - though that would have been a decent excuse for using the inside of some factory as a set rather than building one that might look more like it fit the BSG universe.

Am I not remembering, or are we working under different assumptions?

[Rob Helmerichs]

Am I not remembering, or are we working under different assumptions?
The latter. I see no reason to have refineries on ships and lots of reasons not to (we don't have oil refineries on ships to supply ocean transports), and even if there were, the odds of such a ship surviving the attack are astronomical.

[Jonathan_S]

The latter. I see no reason to have refineries on ships and lots of reasons not to (we don't have oil refineries on ships to supply ocean transports), and even if there were, the odds of such a ship surviving the attack are astronomical.
True, but the volume ratio of crude oil to refined oil products is pretty good, and the transport time isn't bad. A counter example would be old whaling ships, where the whale's fat was rendered down for oil onboard, because the fat was too bulky (and transport times were too long) to make it effective to transport the raw material ashore for processing.

If Tylium mines were located in the systems of the 12 colonies AND the Tylium ore volume wasn't too far off from the refined Tylium volume then it makes sense to have big centralized non-mobile refineries.

But if local (non-FTL) Tylium deposits have been exhausted, and the raw ore is 20 or 50 times bulkier than the refined Tylium fuel, then mobile mining / refinery ships might well be economical. They jump out to a system with Tylium rich asteroids, and then mine and process the ore until their tanks are full of refined Tylium fuel. Then they can jump back to a colony system and sell the fuel.
Transporting it as unrefined bulk ore might waste too much fuel hauling the low grade stuff around through FTL jumps.

And if Tylium mining / refinery ships were out in non-colony systems then likely some would have been missed by the Cylons. (Now the chances of them managing to meet up with the rest of the fleet is much much lower).


Either way the refining process should be a lot more mechanized / automated.

[hefe]

And that's why the show wimped out. Instead of saying slavery is necessary under the circumstances, they pretended it isn't slavery. But it is.
But that's believable in the context of the show. Why should they call it that? What's to be gained by that? Seems it would make things worse.

A government will always call something by the name it wants to spin it with, anyway.

[hefe]

Either way the refining process should be a lot more mechanized / automated.
That just comes down to serving the plot. They needed to have a dangerous and necessary job to do this story.

[hefe]

One other thing...that was the last of the "standalone" episodes this season, according to Moore. ;)

[vikingguy]

The general idea for the episode was solid except baltar the labor leader. Is BSG now a beastmaster type show were I need to check my brain at the door? I mean come on of all people baltar the labor leader come on. What is next adama quiting to become a profesionabl boxer. If they wanted to do this they should of used tom zarak now he would of been perfect. He is a guy who loves to stir up the pot for his own advantage and has enough good will built up to pull it off. For a show that claims to be this great drama they sure expect the viewer to buy some stupid stuff. Next week looks like my least favorite type of episode a starslut centric episode.

With a few changes this would be the type of stand alone epsisode I could enjoy time to time.

[Crrink]

The latter. I see no reason to have refineries on ships and lots of reasons not to (we don't have oil refineries on ships to supply ocean transports), and even if there were, the odds of such a ship surviving the attack are astronomical.
That's actually a well thought out, solid idea.
And that's exactly why I'm going to tell you I don't think the BSG writers thought of it :D
I think ships like the one in this episode are supposed to be the norm. I doubt we'll ever have a definitive answer, though :)

[rich]

If the Cylons really want to cripple the fleet, they do not need to take out the Galactica; they just need to take out the refinery ship.

[Rob Helmerichs]

If the Cylons really want to cripple the fleet, they do not need to take out the Galactica; they just need to take out the refinery ship.
Yes, but they couldn't have done that since there wasn't a refinery ship until this week. :D

[TAsunder]

I thought more about this episode and think that a lot of recent episodes are written exclusively to answer single questions. In this case, it's, how do they not run out of fuel? In the algae episode it was, how do they not run out of food?

Of course, to me anyway, the food question is a lot more logical than the fuel one. It seems a little strange to me that all the fleet ships are powered by a mysterious mineral. Maybe it's just the jump drives that require it.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Of course, to me anyway, the food question is a lot more logical than the fuel one. It seems a little strange to me that all the fleet ships are powered by a mysterious mineral. Maybe it's just the jump drives that require it.
That's what they said--something like they had enough for one more jump.

[TAsunder]

Yeah, but then what do they do for "fuel" that isn't related to jumping?

[Anubys]

That's what they said--something like they had enough for one more jump.

Yep...Adama mentioned they have enough for 2 jumps and that was not good enough...

[7thton]

Except of course, this being Battlestar Galactica, it didn't "come to a head"; it came completely out of the blue.

I was also amused at the Baltar retcon--so he comes from a place that has a different accent, but he changed his accent to a Caprican accent to fit in. Only his Caprican accent is completely different from all the other Caprican accents (which are American accents, even when spoken by Irish actors). In fact, his Caprican accent is a lot closer to the one that he's trying to hide than to all the other Caprican accents...
Don't forget about (aboot) the Canadian accents.

[7thton]

At least this episode made mention of running from the cylons and finding Earth. But more importantly, very little Starbuck. That woman just brings the whole show down.

And at least this episode dealt with issues that actually are important to the survival of the race.

The stuff about Baltar is a bit hard to swallow. Who is actually going to support this guy after he colluded with the cylons on New Caprica?

[Jonathan_S]

Yes, but they couldn't have done that since there wasn't a refinery ship until this week. :D
Didn't the refinery ship get mentioned once way back in season 1, maybe in the ep when they attacked the big Cylon Tylium refinery?

But don't worry. I'm sure the writers' forgot about it.

[DeathRider]

I guess if the "people" found out/knew it was baltar's fault they lost on Caprica and why the Cylons found them on New Caprica, he would not be their "leader", he'd be jettisoned out an airlock without a trial...

[philw1776]

Bad, bad writing for another boring episode.
I'm not one who enjoys the space battles but if you're going to write a societal question centric episode, present the issues intelligently with a modicum of insight. As others have commented, they only superficially addressed the virtual slavery by the elite.

And the bad writing spread to several scenes.

Baltar's poorly done and incongruous agrarian and unique Caprican accents. WTF???

Worst yet was the sudden transition at the end. Several scenes where the beautiful people ignore the pleas of the mining workers while sipping Chardonay. Chief later adds his reasoned pleas, to no avail. Finally, a good scene where Adama confronts Chief with military discipline realities. Ruined as suddenly without setup the President is all peace and love, not only listening and agreeing to his wishes but suddenly encouraging Chief to be a major political force.

Instead, the writers could have inserted a brief prior scene where Adama discusses the strike with the Pres. Tells her how serious the situation is for the fleet and the implications of military discipline, that he WILL execute 'mutineers' if he has to. She considers Adama's words but does not reply. NOW cut to the good scene with Adama and the Chief where he threatens execution. We still don't know what the president's position is but we at least have SOME rationale when she later makes nicey nice with the Chief.

Was I the only one wishing against all hope that the annoying Callie got the firing squad or the well deserved airlock treatment?

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Of course, to me anyway, the food question is a lot more logical than the fuel one. It seems a little strange to me that all the fleet ships are powered by a mysterious mineral. Maybe it's just the jump drives that require it.

Wasn't it an issue with the fuel in a Raptor that caused Tyrol to be sent to the refinery ship in the first place?

[hefe]

Wasn't it an issue with the fuel in a Raptor that caused Tyrol to be sent to the refinery ship in the first place?
There was some issue with impurities in the fuel.

[lordrichter]

This episode sucked. It was so unbelievable that I actually stopped watching it about 30 minutes in and deleted it.

Typically, that is the turning point for me. If history is an indicator, I will stop watching completely within a couple episodes and will delete the season pass.

[Anubys]

There was some issue with impurities in the fuel.

I thought his question was rhetorical... :)

[ReenieS]

On the subject of slaves....

Didn't the humans invent/create the Cyclons in order to take over the "crap" jobs the humans didn't want?

Didn't the Cylons revolt when they became aware? Now the Cylons want payback.

Could we be drawing a parallel between Cylon slavery (in the old days) and the lower-economic human classes? That might suggest a link between Baltar as a leader of the downtrodden people...just rambling....

[Fish Man]

I thought this episode was dumb.
When your entire civilization has been murdered and the murderers are hot on your heels, with much bigger guns than you have, you shut your mouth and do your job.
It's not like these guys were making satin pillows for the Command staff's precious heads, they were refining the single most important element to *everyone's* survival.

Now, I do agree that Crazy Roslyn should have listened to the concerns and complaints of the Tylium refiners earlier - after all, Tylium in an important resource to her too.
But doing things like having a labor strike under these circumstances are not only treasonous, but suicidal.
You want to kill yourself? Go walk out the nearest airlock, but don't take me with you.

I don't think Adama was bluffing when he threatened to execute Callie. It's too bad the Chief had to be threatened in order to do the right thing.

I agree with each of your points. It's nice to see someone realizing that the social norms of the USA in 2007 do not apply to the situation presented in BSG. :up:

My only disagreement with your post is that I don't think the episode was totally "dumb". I can see human selfishness getting in the way of seeing the "big picture", at least temporarily.

I've read through this thread with great amusement at all the people attempting to apply USA in 2007 societal norms to the universe of BSG.

Folks, please think for a moment:

Imagine the human race exterminated to 41,000 remaining people. The enemy that did the exterminating could reappear at any second to finish the job.

Believe me, under such circumstances, some civil liberties that we take for granted would be forfeited, and seeing that the alternative would be total annihilation of the human race, they would be forfeited willingly.

[Anubys]

Baltar is setting up his defense for the trial...he can't go up against a lynch mob so he is using all the tools at his disposal to gather support...

he is very smart...but to ascribe any of his actions to anything but selfish reasons would be a big mistake...

[jerobi]

While I foudn this to be better than the two episodes that preceded it, I can't wait for these one-off arcs to end.

Did we even SEE a cylon in this episode? And Baltar's mind-Six doesn't count.

[TAsunder]

Folks, please think for a moment:

Imagine the human race exterminated to 41,000 remaining people. The enemy that did the exterminating could reappear at any second to finish the job.

Believe me, under such circumstances, some civil liberties that we take for granted would be forfeited, and seeing that the alternative would be total annihilation of the human race, they would be forfeited willingly.

I imagine that, then I imagine a tylium shortage and overworked factory workers. Then I immediately conclude I would re-assign people doing non-essential jobs to the factory. I wouldn't wait months until there is a virtual rebellion on my hands or refuse to even consider the notion that overworked people are less efficient and more likely to make mistakes.

Unless there was something else we didn't see, the labor in this episode was extremely unskilled and an untrained monkey could probably do it.

I also would do things like cut down massively on unnecessary raptor flights, travel between the major ships in small personal ships, etc.

[rich]

I imagine that, then I imagine a tylium shortage and overworked factory workers....and not just tylium. These 41,000 people have to find or manufacture *all* of their consumable items and materials. They are lucky to have a tylium refinery ship. Do they have a paper mill ship? Do they have a toothpaste factory? Who is producing the soap? Who makes the shoes? They must stay awfully busy.

[phox_mulder]

On the subject of slaves....

Didn't the humans invent/create the Cyclons in order to take over the "crap" jobs the humans didn't want?

Didn't the Cylons revolt when they became aware? Now the Cylons want payback.

Could we be drawing a parallel between Cylon slavery (in the old days) and the lower-economic human classes? That might suggest a link between Baltar as a leader of the downtrodden people...just rambling....

Most excellent observation, not a ramble at all.
At least the first part :D


phox

[Charlutz]

Folks, please think for a moment:

Imagine the human race exterminated to 41,000 remaining people. The enemy that did the exterminating could reappear at any second to finish the job.

Believe me, under such circumstances, some civil liberties that we take for granted would be forfeited, and seeing that the alternative would be total annihilation of the human race, they would be forfeited willingly.

I think you are sorely underestimating the selfishness of the individual. People don't care that the race is threatened. They care how they are inconvenienced. Shortly after 9/11, people were patient with the additional security at the airport. Now?

[Charlutz]

With technology at a sophisticated enough level to allow common space travel, why are they using shovels and mini skip loaders for fuel refinement? That process should have been much more automated many generations ago. The workers might be maintaining the equipment, but not carrying around buckets of the stuff, pouring it through floor plating.


We have the ability to make clothes and cars with robots, but instead they are built in China and Mexico by hand. Maybe in the BSG economy, certain tasks are done a certain way because they are cheaper.

[jerobi]

...and not just tylium. These 41,000 people have to find or manufacture *all* of their consumable items and materials. They are lucky to have a tylium refinery ship. Do they have a paper mill ship? Do they have a toothpaste factory? Who is producing the soap? Who makes the shoes? They must stay awfully busy.

Oh great. I hope the writers don't read this thread - that's enough material at LEAST four more of these episodes.

[Billyh1026]

Weird... you say you want it dumbed down but then you say you want chess and not checkers. Either your chess opponents are dumb or your checkers opponents are incredibly brilliant. :p
What can I say...I like diversity in my board game opponents. :D

Here's what I mean...I think BSG is at it's best when it has cylons and humans interacting, chasing, battling, plotting, scheming, planning, and so on, and so on, and so on, against each other. And no, I'm not saying "hey let's have shoot-out's every episode". What I do like though, and what I think drives the show, is the chess matches between the two. I could care less for the silly boring checker games between humans like the whining tylium shoveler's...helped by the chief...appeased by the president et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, BS. They're just dull and numb the brain cells I didn't kill off during adolescence.

Hmmm...I figured the sarcasm of the "dumbed down" sentence would shine thru...alas, I'm a failure again. Next bridge I see I'm flinging myself off of. ;)

[zalusky]

What I do like though, and what I think drives the show, is the chess matches between the two. I could care less for the silly boring checker games between humans like the whining tylium shoveler's...helped by the chief...appeased by the president et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, BS. They're just dull and numb the brain cells I didn't kill off during adolescence.



I accept that you and a lot of others feel that way but I also like to see stuff that has NOTHING to do with the cylons once in a while. Its not always about them or finding earth and blowing up stuff or getting off Gilligans Island.

I also disagree with previous posts that Roslyn or Adama were out of character. Roslyn has shown in the past when you cross her she is ready to impulsively kick you of the airlock or steal your child without regards to feelings. Its only after she settles down that she acts all wonderful. Adama is similar in that if you do anything to question his authority he will lock you up. HE even did that to Roslyn when he felt she overstepped her bounds. I believe they were fully in character. As for the refining ship it seemed primitive but how long have they been running now and what have they been cobbling together. Imagine us fleeing earth and taking along a portable refinery from say the backwoods of North Korea or even the sweatshops of China. I could easily imagine it being primitive. Although I would agree a ship that had FTL and this do conflict somewhat.

[philw1776]

On the subject of slaves....

Didn't the humans invent/create the Cyclons in order to take over the "crap" jobs the humans didn't want?

Didn't the Cylons revolt when they became aware? Now the Cylons want payback.

Could we be drawing a parallel between Cylon slavery (in the old days) and the lower-economic human classes? That might suggest a link between Baltar as a leader of the downtrodden people...just rambling....

No, not rambling, interesting questions arising in this fantasy universe that the slacker writers are too lazy to explore in a creative, entertaining manner. They pissed away an opportunity to do so with this 'mail it in' episode.

[zalusky]

No, not rambling, interesting questions arising in this fantasy universe that the slacker writers are too lazy to explore in a creative, entertaining manner. They pissed away an opportunity to do so with this 'mail it in' episode.

Maybe their saving that for the Caprica series when they explained how it all started.

[vikingguy]

Maybe their saving that for the Caprica series when they explained how it all started.

If there is a new series I hope either ron moore moves to it and give BSG to someone else. Or else ron moore is not part of the new series at all and let someone else have a shot at it. My vote would be to give the new series to manny coto. I thought the 4th season of enterprise was stellar and his show time series was very good.

[IndyJones1023]

Seelix is hot.

[cwoody222]

Put me in the "didn't think I'd like this episode but really did" crowd.

Until the "all neat and tidy with a bow" ending. I liked hard-ass President... then she caved. She was correct, but she still caved ;)

[vikingguy]

Put me in the "didn't think I'd like this episode but really did" crowd.

Until the "all neat and tidy with a bow" ending. I liked hard-ass President... then she caved. She was correct, but she still caved ;)

Actually the whole situation was her fault. If she was not so busy traveling to galatica to hang with adama and actually did her job as president. She should of looked at the conditions of the fleets second most important ship long ago. What she think those people would slave day and night for years on end with no break while her homies were living it up. This episode would of been perfect for season 2 before baltar became president. Heck this little labor strife would of been perfect to put baltar over the top to win the election instead of the new caprica stuff.

[PJO1966]

Seelix is hot.


IIRC, wasn't she part of Ander's team of insurgents on Caprica?

[IndyJones1023]

IIRC, wasn't she part of Ander's team of insurgents on Caprica?
I thought I had seen her around the hangar bay for a while. I don't think so.

[Anubys]

I thought I had seen her around the hangar bay for a while. I don't think so.

I think she's the one who was helping Chief and his wife into the bay in the episode before this one (when they got trapped)...I could not help but think that I had seen her before...

she might very well have been part of the insurgents on Caprica...

she's hot...I'd take her over that skank Starbuck any day...

[IndyJones1023]

I think she's the one who was helping Chief and his wife into the bay in the episode before this one (when they got trapped)...I could not help but think that I had seen her before...

she might very well have been part of the insurgents on Caprica...

she's hot...I'd take her over that skank Starbuck any day...
No, she's been around a lot more than 2 episodes.

[IndyJones1023]

Thank you IMDB! She goes as far back as January, 2005.

Kobol's Last Gleaming: Part 2 (24 January 2005) - Seelix (as Jennifer Halley)
Scattered (15 July 2005) - Seelix (as Jennifer Halley)
Valley of Darkness (22 July 2005) - Seelix (as Jennifer Halley)
Fragged (29 July 2005) - Seelix (as Jennifer Halley)
Flight of the Phoenix (16 September 2005) - Seelix (as Jennifer Halley)
Exodus: Part 2 (20 October 2006) - Seelix (as Jennifer Halley)
Collaborators (27 October 2006) - Seelix (as Jennifer Halley)
Unfinished Business (1 December 2006) - Seelix
A Day in the Life (18 February 2007) - Seelix
Dirty Hands (25 February 2007) - Seelix

[rich]

We saw the Chief and his family eating algae for dinner. Do they have anything to eat besides algae? Is that a balanced diet?

[TAsunder]

I think you are sorely underestimating the selfishness of the individual. People don't care that the race is threatened. They care how they are inconvenienced. Shortly after 9/11, people were patient with the additional security at the airport. Now?

Perfect analogy, only I suspect you don't realize why.

It is perfectly reasonable to feel inconvenienced by TSA because they are just as incompetent now as the security in airports pre 9/11. Almost every rule they've come up with since 9/11 is rubbish. The latest and greatest plastic bag thing is so overwhelmingly stupid and illogical that I often wonder whether it's a really sophisticated prank of some sort. Somehow if you put 12 3 oz explosive bottles into one plastic bag and take that onto the plane, where you could easily pour them all out and combine them together, that is somehow more dangerous than having a random 36 oz bottle.

Similarly, the refinery workers are prefectly reasonable to feel that they are being abused unnecessarily. Because they are. The pseudo-intellectual reasoning offered for requiring constant shifts and dangerous conditions is just as stupid as the TSA plastic bag rule. It is nearly inconceivable that they literally cannot bring in enough additional people to ease the bottleneck at least temporarily or once in a while. There are guys whose job appears to be pouring out a bucket and pushing clustered tylium through a grate. If the job is that important, they can find a way to get more people there.

In both cases, all you have is an appearance of reason. The writing in this episode is so far off from anything I can imagine ever happening that I honestly think the writers themselves are somewhat dim-witted.

[philw1776]

The writing in this episode is so far off from anything I can imagine ever happening that I honestly think the writers themselves are somewhat dim-witted.

Great TSA comments.

Unfortunately, I think you're spot on about the writers as well. These guys strike me as having some creativity, but it stops there. Once they have a creative insight, they get all excited and whip out a show without looking back and thinking about continuity, have we set the stage for these new developments previously, etc. They behave as if they'd just whipped out a term paper at the last minute before the deadline. No basic research, no thought to implications ahead and no lookback or revisions.

Too bad, because they tease us by writing some scenes so well.

[Fish Man]

I think you are sorely underestimating the selfishness of the individual. People don't care that the race is threatened. They care how they are inconvenienced. Shortly after 9/11, people were patient with the additional security at the airport. Now?

Point taken, to a degree, about human selfishness.

However 9/11 killed about 3,000 people.

It didn't take the human race to the brink of extinction (40,000 people left alive), nor did it leave people with the fear that total annihilation of the human race was imminent.

I think there's a magnitude difference here that makes the analogy of 9/11 to the BSG universe not applicable.

Total annihilation of the human race is not at stake if airport security fails to detect a hijacker. Still, most people tolerate airport security with very little grumbling. The magnitude of what's at stake would tend to overcome a lot of "human selfishness".

[Stormspace]

The fleet, and the human race, is in an insanely unsafe condition. These are supposed to be unimaginable circumstances. It came to a head, and they finally dealt with it, and are now working to improve conditions, but initially, the need for fuel was so basic and fundamental to survival, that they could not allow its production to be used as a bargaining chip. It was necessary to take that off the table, and do it unequivocally. Whether or not it was the right way to do it, I can see it being something that could logically happen in such a situation.

I recall my grandfather telling me that on a couple of occasions the national guard was talked about being called out to keep the coal mines going in WVA during WWII when strikes were being talked about. Can't remember if it actually happened, but his comment was that you can't mine coal with a bayonette. Seems like a similar situation in that the job is so important it that not doing it means danger for all. It MUST be done.

Having said that it does seem out of character for Adama and Roslin to dismiss the workers concerns so out of hand. Perhaps if there had been more set up where other groups were complaining as well so that perhaps the refiners concerns were lost in the noise. This could have been done in one of the character building pieces of crap from the last few episodes very easily.

[lordargent]

Who makes the shoes?

Who needs shoes on a ship?

Can you fly a raptor barefoot?

Do they have a janitor that sweeps the hallways?

[Anubys]

Do they have a janitor that sweeps the hallways?

actually, they did have a gardner on Cloud 9 who continued to tend to the garden...I think Zarek made a big deal out of it during the election...

[rich]

Who needs shoes on a ship?

Can you fly a raptor barefoot?

Do they have a janitor that sweeps the hallways?Yes. we saw the Chief sweeping the hallways once, while whistling the original BSG theme.

[Crrink]

I agree with each of your points. It's nice to see someone realizing that the social norms of the USA in 2007 do not apply to the situation presented in BSG. :up:

My only disagreement with your post is that I don't think the episode was totally "dumb". I can see human selfishness getting in the way of seeing the "big picture", at least temporarily.
...snip...

The idea is a fine one, but the episode explored it clumsily, and that's a big part of why I thought it was dumb.
I can easily imagine an interesting, thought provoking, and believable episode based on that idea, but I can't imagine getting it from the people putting this show together.
So I'll watch the rest of the dumb episodes this season and hope they mange to capture my interest again :)