Will S3 improve SD quality?

[Jedi4141]

I am about to embark on the HD world. I have picked out the 50" Panasonic plasma (50px60u) and am serious about adding the Series 3 as well. With so many programs still on basic cable in standard def, does the Series 3 actually improve the quality over not running the feed through it? I thought I read it somewhere on these forums and am wondering if its true. I want to keep my analog cable and record OTA HD until more HD choices are available at a better rate. Thanks

[Bierboy]

Will S3 improve SD quality?Yes...significantly.

[larrs]

Definitely a difference between my S3 and an S2 or a direct input into the TV.

[jbrasure]

If you're using the S3 to record a digital channel, it will record an exact copy of the digital stream without any reencoding. In other words you'll see exactly what you would see using the cable box. The older S2's didn't do this. They needed to reencode the signal, so there was a decrease in quality.

In short, the S3 will give you the best quality possible.

[Carsten]

Alot better! My TV through an SD station looks fuzzy/blury but through the Tivo its reduced a bit.!

[moyekj]

Alot better! My TV through an SD station looks fuzzy/blury but through the Tivo its reduced a bit.! Most likely because using cablecards (or a digital box) you are getting the digital simulcast versions of the channels instead of the analog versions you get with your TV NTSC tuner, so it's nothing "magic" about the Tivo itself is doing to improve picture quality - the difference you see is analog (TV) versus digital (Tivo). If you were to compare Tivo without cablecards to your TV you would find the TV quality to be better (since the Tivo would then be re-encoding the already inferior analog version).

[Derek Nickel]

NTSC broadcasts looks much better on an S3 comparted to an S2. It will not be as good as DTV, however. This improved quality is most likely because the video compression agorithms are much better on the S3 than the S2. Picture quality was the one thing I found hard to give up years ago when I bought my first TiVo. With the S3 it's not an issue.

[justinw]

I have the same TV as you (Panasonic 50px60U) and the S3 works GREAT with it. SD is definitely better than my old S2. and the HD.... well yeah its amazing.

[aaronwt]

I must say I saw no difference from the analog channels on the S2 or S3. When I set up my girlfriends series2 boxes a few weeks ago the picture from analog channels on the S2 looked the same as from the S3. Now between my Algolith FLEA and DVDO VP50 the SD picture looks very good for SD. But it's still SD. It will always be lacking detail since the resolution is so low.

[morac]

Analog channels need to be encoded by the S3 so in that respect they won't look any better than those encoded on a S2.

SD Digital channels on the other hand not only look better, they are actually about the same size as BASIC recordings on the S2. So they look better and are "less filling". :)

[bmgoodman]

I don't have an HDTV yet, but I got an S3 to take advantage of the lifetime transfer option. I record everything in "medium" now on the S3 vs. "high" on the S2. I think the picture looks better on the S3 (even at lower recording quality). I am extremely pleased with it.

[pl1]

I don't have an HDTV yet, but I got an S3 to take advantage of the lifetime transfer option. I record everything in "medium" now on the S3 vs. "high" on the S2. I think the picture looks better on the S3 (even at lower recording quality). I am extremely pleased with it.Try hooking up a regular antenna and see if you can pick up some free HD stations. Worth a shot. I get 4 I use regularly, and about 25 in total. (6 GBH stations included.)

[Bierboy]

Analog channels need to be encoded by the S3 so in that respect they won't look any better than those encoded on a S2....
I must disagree....I had my S2 connected to my calibrated Hitachi 51-inch RPTV and now have my S3 connected to the same unit. The difference in analog cable PQ is very noticeable and substantial.

[fregada_moto]

I agree with Bierboy, the S3 definately increases picture quality of SD content over my S2 units.

[justinw]

I have CableCards and supposidly that is suppose to improve SD quality.. so that may be the reason.

[kosherbacon]

I agree with Bierboy and fregada. SD PQ is better when run through the S3.

Does the S3 do some sort of signal upconversion like my Oppo DVD player? I would not say that the TiVo S3 SD PQ is as good as the upconverted DVDs via the Oppo. Then again, SD TV was never as good as SD DVD PQ before I took the HD plunge.

[ewilts]

I am about to embark on the HD world. I have picked out the 50" Panasonic plasma (50px60u) and am serious about adding the Series 3 as well. With so many programs still on basic cable in standard def, does the Series 3 actually improve the quality over not running the feed through it? I thought I read it somewhere on these forums and am wondering if its true. I want to keep my analog cable and record OTA HD until more HD choices are available at a better rate. Thanks
That depends. If you still keep analog cable for your SD programming, you may not see any difference at all. If your cable operator simulcasts the digital versions of the SD stations, you may see a significant improvement.

See if you can upgrade to a basic digital package that gives you the digital equivalents of your SD channels. You'll be glad you did.

.../Ed

[shady]

I watch a lot of the Sci-Fi channel in Zoom mode on an HD TV via the S3, and it looks very impressive.

[CraigHB]

Went from SD DTiVo to S3. Difference is HUGE on SD. DirecTV uses a lot of compression so that's part of it. Also, the DTiVo used composite, the S3 uses component which is a much better interface. The SD digital cable/OTA channels provide a noticably better picture than analog. A bonus is recordings from digital SD channels only consume about 1GB per hour (versus 4GB per hour for best quality on analog channels) and the picture quality of the recording is at least as good, probably better.

[Jedi4141]

to ewilts,

That seems to be my problem. Comcast in chicago has very few if any channels that are from analog cable and has a digital version. So if pay for digital cable, there are no digital channels of the versions that i watch. (I will be missing NFL network). I just don't/won't pay an extra $20+/month for the sake of having many channels, cable cards I have to pay for etc. Until they change their lineup, OTA and analog cable like bierboy seems to be my best option.

It sounds like more than likely SD will look better going through the S3. So I appreciate the input of you fellow Tivo-addicts (I just had my 3 year Tivo-ersary)

[Darthnice]

I have a S3 connected via HDMI and a S2 connected via S-Video to the same set.

I can't tell a difference in the video quality between the two when viewing SD content from analog channels.

[ewilts]

Comcast in chicago has very few if any channels that are from analog cable and has a digital version.
That's interesting since some Comcast areas have 100% of the analog channels being simulcast as digital. I guess I'm just lucky here :-)

.../Ed

[jmace57]

I just got an S3 a week or so ago. It is currently hooked up to a DirecTiVo via component, and also hooked to my S3 thru TimeWarner cablecards via both component and HDMI (while I am testing).

The HD picture quality is great via TWC. The SD thru TWC is TERRIBLE. The SD thru my DirecTiVo is very good. I have a Samsung 32 inch LCD, whose resolutions are shown as 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i.

I have tried (I think) all combinations of video modes/resolutions...and the SD looks really bad...to the point I am considering returning the S3.

Before I take any drastic action, am I missing something? I keep reading in this thread about how great SD quality is on the S3 (and cable). The best way I can describe it is "fuzzy looking". (It is fuzzy looking whether going thru component or HDMI)

I wanted to mention (after reading other threads, that I am having no pixellation issues)

Help, anyone! Thanks

Jim

[wierdo]

Any difference you see in analog SD will be solely related to the S3 using a higher bitrate than most S2s at all quality settings except basic.

The MPEG encoder is the same as has been used since the 540 models.

Now, if you are using CableCARDs, your cable company has ADS and has the CableCARDs set to use the digital version of the analog channels and has good encoders, you may get better quality, but that's entirely dependent on the cable company in that case. Cox in Tulsa has pretty good encoders and use a bitrate equivalent to the S3's medium quality but provide significantly better quality than the Broadcom encoder the TiVos use.

[legendarybc]

Before I take any drastic action, am I missing something? I keep reading in this thread about how great SD quality is on the S3 (and cable).

First of all, get a TWC tech to come out and check your levels. Your analog channels might be fuzzy because the signal strength is low. Second, set the S3 to 720p fixed since you have a progressive display. Finally, do not "zoom" the TV, let SD channels display in 4:3, not 16:9. This is my 2 cents, hope it helps.

BC

[Justin Thyme]

Jim, is SD digital just as terrible as SD analog? On TWC, BOOMerang is Digital. A quick way to tell if you are on a digital channel if you press record and it doesn't ask you "Record at best quality?"

As you probably know, if you had a signal problem, the digital channel should be either sharp or have blocky interference like you see for on DirecTv in a rainstorm.

If the digital is "fuzzy" too, then make sure Tivo is doing the upscaling- on video setings, force everything to 720p.

[jmace57]

Thanks gents for your input - the digital channels are fine...it is the analog ones that were bad. I played around more with the settings and it is perhaps better. It is my 'quest" for this weekend!

Speaking of which - have a great weekend all.

Jim

[ChickenCheese]

I was just going to post something like this thread. I just hooked up my S3 and will have to wait until the weekend for Comcast to install the cablecards. However, I did compare a few of the channels between the S3 and the Comcast DVR.

Far as I can tell, the Comcast DVR has a much better picture. For example, I was flipping back and forth between Sci-Fi and Comcast looked better. I was a little confused with some of the posting, but could this be due to the channel being digital on Comcast and analog on the S3, since I don't have cablecards installed yet? Or maybe I have a weak signal?

[dianebrat]

A lot of this is also dependent on what you're viewing on, one of the initial posts said a user was using a non-HD set.
When I had my 32" CRT EDTV the S3 and S2 were very similar in SD quality, slight edge to the S3.
Everything changed with my 42" plasma, at that point the differences were clear, the S3 was substantially better.

YMMV

Diane

[ChickenCheese]

I should have given more info. I have a 50" Samsung 720p DLP and I have the S3 set to 720p Fixed.

I'm hoping having cablecards installed will improve the picture.

[Martin Tupper]

..but could this be due to the channel being digital on Comcast and analog on the S3, since I don't have cablecards installed yet?
Yes, of course.

If the Comcast box (or an S3) is recording the digital channel, it isn't compressing it. It just records the stream exactly how it is broadcast. There is no loss of quality.

If your S3 is recording the analog channel, then it has to convert from analog to digital in order to record (or even display) it. Even at the "best" setting, the quality will not be as good as the digital channel that was encoded by Comcast.

[TiVo Troll]

S2's (analog) tuner is average at best. LG's discontinued LRM-519 DVR-DVD recorder has a much better analog tuner than TiVo's which results in better standard-def pictures from analog sources .

Many SD channels look significantly better (less grungy) on an S2 when encoded through the line input from a digital cable box. And even though S2 can't control most ATSC/QAM STB's (except VOOM ex-satellite boxes) it's possible to record from them through the line input.

S3 is way too expensive for most viewers to use only for standard-def digital reception. If TiVo expects the S3 to be routinely used for standard-def by mass market users they'll have to address the price issue. Otherwise a cheap cable (or satellite) DVR is a far more reasonable solution for good standard-def pictures from a digital source for most mass market viewers.

[ChickenCheese]

Is there somewhere to look to see what channels are digital and which ones are analog in my area?

[TiVo Troll]

Probably. But it requires a bit of digging and every cable system is different.

In my area Comcast simulcasts their extended basic analog service to their digital STB's using the regular single and double digit channel numbers for the digital feeds. So all channels received by their digital STB's are in the digital format (although most aren't hi-def).