Series3 vs. AppleTV

[Joegold]

How many other people think the Series3 blows AppleTV out of the water? Apple had downloads going for them but now that TiVo's doing that too I see no reason to get an AppleTV over a Series3 (except price I guess but at-least you get to record what ever show you want instead of downloading them for $1.99 each)

[squiredogs]

How many other people think the Series3 blows AppleTV out of the water? Apple had downloads going for them but now that TiVo's doing that too I see no reason to get an AppleTV over a Series3 (except price I guess but at-least you get to record what ever show you want instead of downloading them for $1.99 each)

I'm every bit as much a Mac guy as a TiVo guy (100% Mac going on 17 years) and a Tivo 1,1,2, and now an S3 owner. I would think that anyone who is up to an S3 would have no use for the AppleTV. Not for DVR purposes. I considered the ATV, but I need it to be able to:

- Wirelessly mirror my ibook onto the TV
- stream and playback every kind of internet media (not just iTunes stuff)
- backup, or at least play nice with my S3, hopefully as a storage expander or backup.

I don't think that the ATV is slated to do any of those things. It seems more like an iPod video that plugs into your TV. Having said that, if I can get mlb.tv to stream full sized on my TV from the ATV, I'll probably get one, as the MLB decision to go to satellite only sucks for me with my cable/S3 setup.

[cgould]

Well, seeing as how the AppleTV will actually let you show/stream HD video over network from your PC, and the S3 is still cablelabs-cripplied even for your own dang PC video, then AppleTV has one up on us. Plus being able to play iTunes AAC songs.

That said, 720p is a piece of crap max res on the Apple box, especially given that my RP-CRT won't even display that resolution, it's totally unusable for me.
[Edit: guess it will display to 1080i TVs after all... but video max res is only 720p, so guess it upscales (lame for my HDV movies), but at least it would show a picture.] :

http://www.apple.com/appletv/specs.html
"Video formats supported: H.264 and protected H.264 (from iTunes Store): 640 by 480, 30 fps, LC version of Baseline Profile; 320 by 240, 30 fps, Baseline profile up to Level 1.3; 1280 by 720, 24 fps, Progressive Main Profile. MPEG-4: 640 by 480, 30 fps, Simple Profile"

[TydalForce]

There's really not a lot of overlap between the two. AppleTV has no recording capability on its own. It has to get its content from a computer on your network, which you have to download/purchase/record there. You're mostly losing all the good stuff that makes a TiVo so great. It does Music & Photo streaming, but so does TiVo. The AppleTV does it prettier, and does stream protected iTMS music.

I don't see a lot of people trying to decide one vs. the other, once they realize the difference in functionality. People will either want a DVR, or a content streamer. I think a lot of people will actually get *both* to fill in the gaps.

[bdraw]

I don't really see much overlap between the functionality of the Series3 and the Apple TV.

The Series3 is primarily for recording and playing back HD programming from multicast sources like Cable and broadcast TV. This is primarily for video.

The Apple TV is primarily for bringing content that is on your computer to your HDTV. The primary focus is Music, Pictures and Video, based on the specs I believe the focus is in that order.

However there is some overlap between the two devices.
The Series3 has a secondary ability using TiVoDesktop to bring some computer content to your TV. The playback audio and picture formats are more restrictive than the ATV and the interface of the Series3 pales in comparison to the ATV in regards to pictures and music, not to mention the fact that Mac support of TiVoDesktop is 2nd tier at best, lacking even the ability to display HD pictures from a Mac.

The other big difference is the iTunes Music store factor, the Series3 lacks that ability to playback any protected content purchased from the itms.

While the Series3 attempts to be the jack of all trades, it does manage to master the recording and playback of HD Video.

The Apple TV masters the ability to bring your pictures and music to your HT in the most eloquent way as possible and fully supporting Macs and iTunes along the way.

Personally I think they compliment each other nicely which is why I can't wait to receive my AppleTV next week and connect it along side my Series3.

[bdraw]

That said, 720p is a piece of crap max res on the Apple box, especially given that my RP-CRT won't even display that resolution, it's totally unusable for me.
[Edit: guess it will display to 1080i TVs after all... but video max res is only 720p, so guess it upscales (lame for my HDV movies), but at least it would show a picture.] :



This is like saying that ESPN, ABC, and Fox content won't look good on a CRT TV. Most can't even tell if the channel they are watching is 720p or 1080i, because of all the things that are important for great PQ on a HDTV, source resolution isn't that close to the top. The SOTUA is proof of this, one camera pool 5 different channels and completely different results.

[ashu]

Playing iTunes AAC songs is only a cool feature for those who have blown through WAY too much money buying Apple's overpriced music.

Oh wait ... never mind! We're talking about the AppleTV too. Wrong thread.

While you're at it, can you compare the awesome iPhone to the S3 too? :p

[missiontortilla]

I agree, of all my friends with iPods not a single person has purchased something from iTMS. To fill the average iPod with purchased music from iTunes would cost 10s of thousands of dollars!

For those who want to stream music I would recommend the Roku Soundbridge and use it with Rhapsody or Yahoo Music. I think that the Soundbridge is a great complement to TiVo because it supports pretty much all music formats it even interfaces with iTunes, just not purchased music from iTMS. Soundbridge for Audio, TiVo for Video.

[ashu]

Or one of a plethora of extensions/possibilities for every audio format known to mankind, for the TiVo and save your Soundbridge money ;) (J River, Galleon, the whole Play Any Video on your TiVo thread etc)

My own personal multi-audio-format playback solution is rather simple - as long as Winamp can play it, I use the Shoutcast Server Plugin and a Shoutcast Server actually running on my desktop. True, playlists have to be set up on the PC, and you can't pick through songs on the TiVo - but it works well enough :)

[MScottC]

I agree, of all my friends with iPods not a single person has purchased something from iTMS. To fill the average iPod with purchased music from iTunes would cost 10s of thousands of dollars!

For those who want to stream music I would recommend the Roku Soundbridge and use it with Rhapsody or Yahoo Music. I think that the Soundbridge is a great complement to TiVo because it supports pretty much all music formats it even interfaces with iTunes, just not purchased music from iTMS. Soundbridge for Audio, TiVo for Video.

I concur. Of course I've been a TiVo owner since 1999 and a Soundbridge owner for about 3 years now. Not only are all of our 500 or so CDs available in multiple locations (including iPods), but so are hundreds of internet "radio stations." The moment either of us buys a new CD, it immediately gets loaded into either my iTunes or my wife's, and then backed up on the other's machine, the notebook PC and external storage. We both have our own sets of playlists which are all available on the Soundbridge.

One thing I do draw my line on, is illegal downloading. As a member of the creative media industry, I truly feel I don't want people stealing my work, I won't steal theirs. On the other hand, I also rarely purchase music online as well. Call me silly, but I am wary of the legal files available online with their DRM issues. With a CD, I know I've got a legit copy, legally licenced to me, that I'll have NO problems loading on any system that is part of my household, pretty much in perpetuity. So far, I've not gotten that impression with what I'm hearing about legally downloaded music.

I can't imagine going back to either VCRs or CD players (or even audio cassettes).

[bdraw]

I don't buy protected content, but I still can't wait to get my Apple TV.

The reason is the ease of use and the Interface.

TiVo should be ashamed of their photos and music interface, sure it works, but it most certainly is not up to the expectations that TiVo has set.

TiVo treats Mac users as 2nd tier users, always delaying Mac equivalent products long behind the Windows version.

As for comparing the Apple TV to other media bridges, this is where the iPod analogy comes in, when the iPod came out it wasn't accepted by everyone and many pointed out why it wasn't as good as all the other MP3 players at the time, yet it turned out to be far more popular. The reason is that it is easier to use, and TiVo users of all people should understand this appeal.

[Maeglin]

For those who want to stream music I would recommend the Roku Soundbridge and use it with Rhapsody or Yahoo Music. I think that the Soundbridge is a great complement to TiVo because it supports pretty much all music formats it even interfaces with iTunes, just not purchased music from iTMS. Soundbridge for Audio, TiVo for Video.
Indeed... especially with the latest betas making it much more stable than it was before (with random audio muting in particular).

Personally, I buy music from iTMS, but don't own a single iPod. The first thing that happens with purchased music is that it's unfettered (so to speak... without circumventing a thing, mind you) and from there it's playable on the SoundBridge and my portable.

[Darthnice]

I love my TiVo, but the Apple TV product will blow it away for streaming video and software support.

TiVo really has dropped the ball when it comes to HME. It works most of the time, but it is clunky and there isn't any substantial developer support. I'm saying this as a PC user, I can't imagine how the Mac guys feel.

TiVo's "walled garden" approach to video podcasts is abysmal. If an RSS feed has video that is supplied that is compatible with the TiVo codecs, why should I be required to run a server on my PC to feed the TiVo, when the TiVo could just go and get it itself?

Of course, I should be careful what I wish for; look at the "podcasting" app that TiVo provides: you can't even pause the stream... what is up with that?

Galleon serves most of my needs, as long as tivobeacon (or whatever process it requires) hasn't crashed. Recently, I can't get that process to start despite uninstalling/reinstalling and clobbering various stale tivo registry entries.

[kas25]

Will Apple TV have movie rentals or only purchases?

[Maeglin]

Will Apple TV have movie rentals or only purchases?
That would really depend on what iTunes allows you to do, now, wouldn't it? Since I've never done anything with video on iTunes, though, I personally couldn't tell you.

[cgould]

This is like saying that ESPN, ABC, and Fox content won't look good on a CRT TV. Most can't even tell if the channel they are watching is 720p or 1080i, because of all the things that are important for great PQ on a HDTV, source resolution isn't that close to the top. The SOTUA is proof of this, one camera pool 5 different channels and completely different results.

Mostly true, any HD is hugely better than SD...
But, I can tell a LARGE difference between my 1920x1080+ photos displayed as 720p by Tivo Desktop2.4, and my HV10's camcorder native 1080i 1920x1080 still shot output. (both via component.)
It would be a big bummer to lose all the gorgeous native resolution of my HV10 camcorder (OK, the HDV format is 1440x1080i, not full 1920, but it scales up nicely from the source.)
Of course, in the meantime, it's also a big bummer that I can't even watch it AT ALL (on the Tivo) until they enable TTG/comeback. I'll have to stick w/ swapping component cables in meantime. and burning cablelab effigies in my yard...

I'm also not 100% clear from the AppleTV specs above, that it will actually support playing back HDV video which is 1080i MPEG2 60i (scaled or otherwise)... although they'd be stupid not to.

[Maeglin]

I love my TiVo, but the Apple TV product will blow it away for streaming video and software support.
Since the two devices aren't in competition with each other, though, then that's quite alright isn't it? :) :rolleyes:

Apple TV was designed to be a DVR about as much as Pocket PC was designed to be a PDA. Less so, actually, since it can't even remotely do it.

[mightydave]

I'm a diehard fan of both companies.

I have my Series 3. The AppleTV will be here next month. Bought an HDMI switcher. I'm happy.

I've got about 100 GB of movies in my iTunes library. Until the Series 3 supports streaming content to it, my AppleTV will gladly handle that task.

Apples and oranges.

[TydalForce]

Just a note: the AppleTV will stream video "from your iTunes library". You can get video into iTunes without having to purchase it from the iTunes Store.

Just thought that point was worth making; you don't *have* to purchase content from the iTunes Store to work with iTunes/iPod/AppleTV

[Cajun Man]

"Video formats supported: H.264 and protected H.264 (from iTunes Store): 640 by 480, 30 fps, LC version of Baseline Profile; 320 by 240, 30 fps, Baseline profile up to Level 1.3; 1280 by 720, 24 fps, Progressive Main Profile. MPEG-4: 640 by 480, 30 fps, Simple Profile"
Bear in mind that Apple could potentially provide a future software update to support 1080i video, assuming the hardware has enough processing muscle to decode it. That said, I wonder if the lack of 1080i support has more to do with the limited storage space (40 GB) than anything else. (Even with the high compression offered by H.264, 1080i content is certainly going to fill up that 40GB drive mighty fast...)

p.s. I realize that all of your content does not have to fit on the Apple TV's hard drive, but perhaps Apple wanted to reduce the amount of constant streaming/swapping of content on to and off of the Apple TV's disk? Blah blah blah... :p

[Darthnice]

Since the two devices aren't in competition with each other, though, then that's quite alright isn't it? :) :rolleyes:


Except that TiVo S3 has the hardware capability to do what AppleTV can, but lacks software and support commitment from TiVo inc.

[ashu]

Except that TiVo S3 has the hardware capability to do what AppleTV can, but lacks software and support commitment from TiVo inc.

I doubt its about 'commitment' as much as it is about not spreading themselves too thin.

Apple can sell Oranges and, potentially, fail, and still get away with it, while TiVo can't afford to.

This also addresses the whole "TiVo hates Mac users and doesn't support them, treats them like second class citizens"; Well, in case they hadn't noticed, Mac users ARE a minority (albeit an overly vocal, even noisy, one) and TiVo HAS to support the majority of users BEFORE committing to supporting a minority. They get around to it, slower in some respects than others, though!

[cymage]

I have an S3, and I am also looking for a way to stream audio and video in HD. Take a look at this upcoming Netgear box...it support up to 1080p! It is the EVA8000 (sorry, no link because the forum won't let me add it).

[kas25]

I doubt its about 'commitment' as much as it is about not spreading themselves too thin.

Apple can sell Oranges and, potentially, fail, and still get away with it, while TiVo can't afford to.

This also addresses the whole "TiVo hates Mac users and doesn't support them, treats them like second class citizens"; Well, in case they hadn't noticed, Mac users ARE a minority (albeit an overly vocal, even noisy, one) and TiVo HAS to support the majority of users BEFORE committing to supporting a minority. They get around to it, slower in some respects than others, though!

Apple tv really has nothing to do with Mac vs others. I have never owned a Mac but love Itunes and will be buying the Apple tv because Apple's user interfaces are generally better than anything out there.

[moyekj]

I have an S3, and I am also looking for a way to stream audio and video in HD. Take a look at this upcoming Netgear box...it support up to 1080p! It is the EVA8000 (sorry, no link because the forum won't let me add it). Looks interesting, but with a projected MSRP of $349 I don't think there will be many takers, certainly not me:
http://netgear.com/About/PressReleases/en-US/2007/20070107b.aspx
It's frustrating that with little effort from Tivo the S3 could do so much more in this area.

[Stormspace]

The thing TiVo offers to the S2 user that ATV doesn't is the ability to load any video you can get into the right format onto the TiVo. Sometimes this isn't an easy task, sometimes it is. To date I've only had problems with PAL video since my conversion software doesn't work with it very well.

[kas25]

The thing TiVo offers to the S2 user that ATV doesn't is the ability to load any video you can get into the right format onto the TiVo. Sometimes this isn't an easy task, sometimes it is. To date I've only had problems with PAL video since my conversion software doesn't work with it very well.
Can you please expand upon this. Are you saying that the S3 will support more video formats than the ATV? What format can I use on the S3 that the ATV won't?

[Darthnice]

Can you please expand upon this. Are you saying that the S3 will support more video formats than the ATV? What format can I use on the S3 that the ATV won't?
I assume Stormspace is referring to transcoding an unsupported format to a supported format.

[Leo_N]

Can you please expand upon this. Are you saying that the S3 will support more video formats than the ATV? What format can I use on the S3 that the ATV won't?

Do a user search for pipakin here on the TCF boards. He has a program setup that will let you run just about anything out to the S2's. I believe he is calling it Tivo.net, has had it up and running for a couple weeks, maybe a month, with some pretty interesting results. People have it running on Linux,Windows, and OSX I believe. He also said that it should run on the S3 as long as TTG gets activated. Basically its a lot like the beta version of TivoDesktop2.4, but it was out a little earlier and I believe it supports more formats. Still in somewhat of a beta state last I read the thread, but he was moving forward at a fairly quick pace on it.

[smc]

I'm waiting for the Sling Catcher!

http://us.slingmedia.com/object/io_1168286861787.html

I agree that Tivo should be able to do this, but CableLabs is stopping it.

[moyekj]

I'm waiting for the Sling Catcher!

http://us.slingmedia.com/object/io_1168286861787.html

I agree that Tivo should be able to do this, but CableLabs is stopping it. Problem is if you use it as client to Slingbox (or Slingbox Pro) it's limited to 640x480 resolution of the Slingbox so is not a great S3 MRV alternative. I didn't find details on what the max resolution is for PC/laptop display "projection" to a TV but there is mention that it is HD capable for that function. I would guess it may do up to 720p or 1080i but doubt it would do 1080p.

[Stormspace]

I assume Stormspace is referring to transcoding an unsupported format to a supported format.

That's exactly right. S2's only have one supported format at present however it's still to be seen how the ATV will function with regard to unsupported formats. All I'm hearing at present is some connection to iTunes video which suggests some type of quicktime or MP4.

[Jiffylush]

The AppleTV is a nice box but it is not as important or 'cool' as the iPod was or the iPhone will be (imho).

An HTPC could be much better and would do everything an AppleTV box would do, plus much much more. The only reason I am not still using one was the whole encrypted HD content thing, which is why I bought the S3.

A friend of mine will be using an older Mac Mini, so it will even have Frontrow (same basic interface). Plus he can play stuff from the iTunes store, along with whatever else he wants to play, there are no format restrictions.

I own an S3 and a PS3, and while the AppleTV is a nice product, it doesn't really do anything that I can't already do.

Having said that, I am considering getting the AppleTV for my parents, I think they could really get a lot of enjoyment out of it. Plus I know it will work well and be easy and intuitive for them to use.

[bdraw]

A friend of mine will be using an older Mac Mini, so it will even have Frontrow (same basic interface). Plus he can play stuff from the iTunes store, along with whatever else he wants to play, there are no format restrictions.


Exactly the ATV has a similar interface to front row, but costs half as much as a Mini and has HDMI and Component outputs. It is also smaller, quiter (should be) and has no power brick.

On top of all this anyone could set it up, the same could not be said about a Mini.

[plmills]

I've been following ATV discussions on this forum for awhile, and find many people not responding to several important points that are being made by a very few members:

1) ATV, according to Apple's own website, will only support H.264 (protected by iTunes DRM, as well as unprotected) at SD and HD resolutions, and Mpeg4 at 640x480 30fps. Those are the ONLY listed formats. Anything else you have on your PC will need to be transcoded in order to be displayed via ATV.

2) Multi-channel audio is not being discussed at all. Even though the ATV has HDMI and Optical outputs, Apple's iTunes store content does not include surround channel information at all, and the supported audio formats (again, as listed in the tech. specs on Apple's website) are not indicative of surround-sound support.

3) While not an ATV issue per se, Apple's Quicktime software does not support passing of an encoded digital surround track to an external decoder (like your surround-sound receiver) via the optical outputs on your Mac PC. Some HT folks with Macs have found work-arounds by using the VLC player, which *does* have the ability to pass, for example, an AC3 track with Dolby surround info., via the Mac's optical output to an external decoder. However, there are no codecs available at this time, either free or otherwise, which will work with Quicktime in any way except to downmix an AC3 surround channel to two-channel PCM. This limitation makes use of Quicktime almost impossible for truly satisfying HT use.

I will not be one bit surprised if ATV is based on Quicktime, and has the same limitation as Quicktime on a standard Mac running OS X with regard to these surround-sound issues.

In addition, there is no HD content available on the iTunes store, and, to repeat, iTunes content does not include surround-sound tracks or CC information either, for that matter.

To use ATV for true HT use, you would have to have the following:

1) The ability to obtain, outside of the iTunes store, HD video content with surround-sound information.

2) If the video content obtained in #1 above was not "H.264 unprotected 1280 by 720, 24 fps, Progressive Main Profile" (which is the only "true" HD video format supported by the ATV according to Apple's own website), then it would have to be transcoded to such a format before being usable via ATV.

3) Unless I am misreading Apple's tech. specs for audio, you would also have to transcode/downmix the surround-sound AC3 track in your content to one of the following before it would be usable via ATV:

AAC (16 to 320 Kbps); protected AAC (from iTunes Store); MP3 (16 to 320 Kbps); MP3 VBR; Apple Lossless; AIFF; WAV

Given that these are the published specs on Apple's own website for the ATV, I'm quite surprised to see so many TiVo folks, who are apparently S3 users and, in theory, interested in HD-level video and digital surround-sound audio, interested in the ATV.

Maybe I should just keep my trap shut, but I've a feeling, from reading many posts on this and the AVS forums, that many, many folks are ordering or planning on ordering the ATV who are not doing their homework, and setting themselves up for major disappointments when ATV proves to be exceptionally limited in its ability to render content in all but a handful of Apple-approved formats. I don't believe Apple is targeting true HT folks or anyone truly knowledgeable and discerning about high-quality digital video and audio. They are merely making a device primarily, and nearly exclusively, dedicated to displaying the limited-quality iTunes video content on a television set. Folks interested in displaying their own HD-level video/surround-sound audio on their HT equipment will almost certainly need to look elsewhere.

[bdraw]

plmills,
You make some great points the most important concerning the lack of multi-channel audio.

But.. Anyone who truly wants the best HD experience would just buy HD DVD or Blu-ray. At this point in time, these are the ultimate formats and everything else is simply a compromise in quality for price or convenience.

This is where the Apple TV comes in. It is not designed to be the ultimate HD HT device, it is also not designed to be a DVR and to your point anyone expecting it to be will be very disappointed.

It is on the other hand a very good media streamer, if by media you mean; Pictures, Music and Podcasts. Right now there is no EASY and enjoyable way for people to listen to their music, Podcasts and pictures on their HDTV. This is the focus of this device.

Any other use is a bonus and like you point out, without support for multi-channel audio, it really can't do justice to movies and tv shows that would otherwise be available in 5.1 or above.

[plmills]

bdraw,

I posted because of a number of postings I've read implying that the poster was assuming the capability of the ATV to play just about any random content they had downloaded from the web on their HDTV. There have also been some postings implying that the iTunes store either already had or is planning to offer HD content, when no such content is currently available, and there are no announced plans by Apple for providing it.

I certainly do agree with you that the ATV will be a great way of obtaining access to photos and (non-surround) music, as well as playing standard iTunes video and audio on their HDTV systems.

I just want to make sure people understand that the ATV, according to current tech. specs on Apple's website, will *not* be a solution allowing them to play typical HD content / surround-sound audio / SD content contained in Mpeg2 format over their home theater equipment or HDTV, at least without transcoding to supported ATV formats.

If the ATV has the ability to remotely reproduce the display and sound from a separate Mac computer over the wireless network, as I've seen guessed at/predicted, it *may* be possible to use it as a wireless remote monitor/speaker for some such content (assuming the source Mac system is capable of playing the content), but this is, to my knowledge, not something Apple is admitting to at this point, and would only cater to a specialized and rather small niche of users anyway, I suspect - although I would certainly be one of them :-)

[Bilbrey]

Many good points made above. Apple TV appeals to different folk for different reasons.

I don't plan on getting rid of my TiVo. Apple TV is complementary to it. So far, I've used it to download a TV show that my TiVo missed (I don't like watching the 'free' shows of TV shows shown on the networks websites. Little windows on my computer...).

Apple TV allows me to use my TV to watch or listen to iTunes content.

My kids like watching the photos. Not sure why, but it does capture their attention. Almost as much fun as PhotoBooth.

My wife said she likes Apple TV better than our iPod HiFi.

Each of us see it a different way. But for now, it allows iTunes content to be shown on my TV.

The points made about it being simpler and easier to set up are right on track. The goal is to make accessing content simple.

It will have many third party tie ins... Elgato has already announced (http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file=products_eyetv) their support.

It will be interesting to see how Apple TV matures.

[ScubaCat]

...It will be interesting to see how Apple TV matures.Yes indeed.

I placed my order for Apple TV within minutes of the announcement. Yes, I'm interested in HDTV but it's not my main objective. I want to see my many photos, home movies, podcasts and browse my huge music library easily on my TV in a typically elegant Apple way. Anything else at this point would be gravy.

I do look forward to seeing Apple TV mature. My only concern will be having to buy new hardware to get there.

[DocNo]

Given that these are the published specs on Apple's own website for the ATV, I'm quite surprised to see so many TiVo folks, who are apparently S3 users and, in theory, interested in HD-level video and digital surround-sound audio, interested in the ATV.

The thing hasn't even shipped yet. The iPod didn't support gapless play for the longest time, it now does. It's not like they can't add it later.

Even having said that, I have plenty of uses for the Apple TV as it stands, and am looking forward to mine.

I'm most looking forward to just plugging it in and having it work :p

[dig_duggler]

Really humorous and nice comparison here (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/apples-and-oranges-hands+on-apple-tv-vs-tivo-series3-hd-247146.php)