Tivo S3 and SDV Questions

[smc]

It doesn’t really bother me that the cable companies are converting to SDV, what really concerns me is that no one from Tivo has responded to the issue. We know that they know of the issue and that their engineers are working on it, what ever that means, from the letter they wrote to the FCC.

But, knowing that people are buying their product every day, that many of the people buying it has no clue of what SDV is and how it can affect them now or in the future, it would seem that they should answer the question: Will the current S3 be able to support SDV? Simple question, they should know the answer since this is nothing new. This is something that they should have known about prior to the release of the S3 and should have planed for.

With Tivo being so silent on the subject it leads me to believe that Tivo doesn’t have a solution for the current S3 and they will come out with a newer version of it. If that is so then I have another question that they should answer: Will Tivo provide a (very large) rebate to customers that bought the S3?

Steve

[Agent86]

Welcome to being an early adopter. All we can do is brace for the worst, and hope for the best. But, as with all new products, sometimes you bite the bear and sometimes the bear bites you.

We just might get completely devoured this time, is all :(

[mfreeman73]

My opinion is that since the S3 can't do SDV, they will eventually come out with a version that can handle two-way cablecards (The S4 maybe?). I think Tivo is just waiting on a standard to be developed since it would be useless to make a machine right now because cable companies can use different technologies to do this. I'm sure Tivo is looking into it, but it would also be nice to hear something from them. I hate when companies are silent. Hey, even a "We know about it and are looking at possible solutions" message would be nice.

[cwoody222]

It doesn’t really bother me that the cable companies are converting to SDV, what really concerns me is that no one from Tivo has responded to the issue. We know that they know of the issue and that their engineers are working on it, what ever that means, from the letter they wrote to the FCC.

But, knowing that people are buying their product every day, that many of the people buying it has no clue of what SDV is and how it can affect them now or in the future, it would seem that they should answer the question: Will the current S3 be able to support SDV? Simple question, they should know the answer since this is nothing new. This is something that they should have known about prior to the release of the S3 and should have planed for.

With Tivo being so silent on the subject it leads me to believe that Tivo doesn’t have a solution for the current S3 and they will come out with a newer version of it. If that is so then I have another question that they should answer: Will Tivo provide a (very large) rebate to customers that bought the S3?

Steve

It'll be the same rebate that every TV manufacturer who makes a TV with a CableCARD slot in it gives those customers.

[davecramer74]

the s3 wont do sdv, its as simple as that. if it wont do IPTV, then i guarantee it wont do sdv. Same basic technologies.

Will they offer a rebate? Good question. I was an early adopter of the xbox360. Rumors are, they are coming out with a 2nd version that not only has HDMI, but also will do IPTV. Do you think ill get a rebate to buy these?

So in answer to your question, i doubt it.

[Monty2_2001]

They should pull the S3 off the market, offer a near total refund for an upgrade to an SDV capable Tivo, or face a class action lawsuit.

Amazing that so many people seem to be so willing to throw away a huge amount of money. I've had mine for just a month, and I'm really miserable about SDV at this point.

[dig_duggler]

They should pull the S3 off the market, offer a near total refund for an upgrade to an SDV capable Tivo, or face a class action lawsuit.

Amazing that so many people seem to be so willing to throw away a huge amount of money. I've had mine for just a month, and I'm really miserable about SDV at this point.

I'm betting on the class action suit, which might result in some free or deeply discounted s4 box...

[seattlewendell]

the s3 wont do sdv, its as simple as that. if it wont do IPTV, then i guarantee it wont do sdv. Same basic technologies.

Will they offer a rebate? Good question. I was an early adopter of the xbox360. Rumors are, they are coming out with a 2nd version that not only has HDMI, but also will do IPTV. Do you think ill get a rebate to buy these?

So in answer to your question, i doubt it.
The problem is that your old 360 will still play all of your current and future 360 games. You actually gameplay will not be effected in any way. SDV means I will not receive some channels. Big Big difference.

[GoHokies!]

Wow, just what we need is another SDV thread on the same freakin' page. Complete with threats of a class action lawsuit, I don't know where to start!!!!

Seriously folks. What is this class-action lawsuit based on? False advertising? Does Tivo claim that this is going to be compatable with SDV cable systems? Can any of you point to a standard that Tivo can adhere to to make SDV-compliant boxes? Even if you did know how to search (which is suspect, since you felt the need to start yet another SDV thread) you wouldn't find one, because it doesn't exist.

Amazing that so many people seem to be so willing to throw away a huge amount of money. I've had mine for just a month, and I'm really miserable about SDV at this point.

Why? Do you have SDV? What are you missing out on? Do you really think that if you suddenly got SDV tomorrow that you wouldn't be able to recoup most of your money by selling the box?

But, knowing that people are buying their product every day, that many of the people buying it has no clue of what SDV is and how it can affect them now or in the future, it would seem that they should answer the question: Will the current S3 be able to support SDV? Simple question, they should know the answer since this is nothing new. This is something that they should have known about prior to the release of the S3 and should have planed for.Exactly. And educated comsumers that do research do know all of this. As for everyone else, I think the phrase is "A fool and his money are soon parted"...

[kjmcdonald]

With Tivo being so silent on the subject it leads me to believe that Tivo doesn’t have a solution for the current S3 and they will come out with a newer version of it.

The thing is, until a standard is agreed to by all parties (the CE industry, and the Cable Industry) Tivo can't hope to build a new Tivo, nor a 'add-on' for the S3 that will make this work.

When you need to communicate with the other end of the network, you need to have a reliable definition of how the other end works, and what 'language' it needs you to speak to it. Without that it's only possibly to make a box that works with the single cable network that you are using to test it. As soon as you move it to another network (even in the same Cable Company) all bets are off.

Tivo is waiting for the specifications for how CableCARD hosts need to do 2-way communications to become final. The Cable Companies have virtually no incentive to finish or agree to that spec.

What is needed is for the Integration Ban to not only be enforced, but extended to cover 2-way communications. The Cable Companies need to be forced to (finish the standard and) only use 2 way cable boxes that do the communications in a way that meets the standard.

Today the Integration ban only covers one way communications. The Cable Companies are being forced to use STB's that have to use CableCARDs to do the downstream communication work. But the those boxes are free to use whatever (read Proprietary) upstream communications they want to. This is easy for the Cable Companies, since they only have to buy ones that work with their network.

But it's impossible for Tivo to make a product that will work 2-way with all Cable networks like the S3 does for 1-way.

This is what we all need to say (loudly) to the FCC.

-Kyle

[kjmcdonald]

the s3 wont do sdv, its as simple as that. if it wont do IPTV, then i guarantee it wont do sdv. Same basic technologies.

I don't think so.

In what way are they the same basic technologies?

The S3 has Ethernet, it has MPEG4, It's software is upgradeable. There's nothing technical that I know of that stops new software from processing IPTV streams from the internet or anything else that deliver them to your home network.

SDV on the other hand requires hardware that the S3 doesn't have. No amount of software will help with that. ;)

-Kyle

[dig_duggler]

Wow, just what we need is another SDV thread on the same freakin' page. Complete with threats of a class action lawsuit, I don't know where to start!!!!

Seriously folks. What is this class-action lawsuit based on? False advertising? Does Tivo claim that this is going to be compatable with SDV cable systems?

Heck no. But that's never stopped class action suits before :) If enough people feel ripped off I don't think it's too hard to find a lawyer who would take the suit. And he might be able to make the case that Tivo had reasonable expectations that their hardware would not be operable in the very near future, etc. And Tivo doesn't have deep pockets so they could be enticed to settle.

Anyway, all theoretical and speculative. We have no idea what will really happen with SDV nor of any response Tivo itself might have.

[dswallow]

Heck no. But that's never stopped class action suits before :) If enough people feel ripped off I don't think it's too hard to find a lawyer who would take the suit. And he might be able to make the case that Tivo had reasonable expectations that their hardware would not be operable in the very near future, etc. And Tivo doesn't have deep pockets so they could be enticed to settle.

Anyway, all theoretical and speculative. We have no idea what will really happen with SDV nor of any response Tivo itself might have.
As if the settlement would be any better than a $50-$100-off coupon good for direct sale from TiVo only (i.e.; $150+ higher than street pricing), plus $50 million or so to the lawyers.

[ashu]

Maybe we can cut the lawyers completely out of it. As in almost every other aspect of life.

SNAP!

Whoops, I just woke up. Was I daydreaming again?

[jacksonian]

What is needed is for the Integration Ban to not only be enforced, but extended to cover 2-way communications. The Cable Companies need to be forced to (finish the standard and) only use 2 way cable boxes that do the communications in a way that meets the standard.

Exactly! Instead of threatening to sue TiVo over something that they could not control, we should be talking to the FCC about this.

I personally am thankful that TiVo made the S3 for me to use as long as I possibly can. If SDV affects me, then I'll deal with it then. If TiVo can make a new product to handle it, then I'll buy that too.

[retired_guy]

...
I personally am thankful that TiVo made the S3 for me to use as long as I possibly can. If SDV affects me, then I'll deal with it then. If TiVo can make a new product to handle it, then I'll buy that too.
+1

[Monty2_2001]

So how often are we supposed to buy $600-800 new Tivos? Every 2 years I guess, if the cable companies are going to keep doing this.

[GoHokies!]

So how often are we supposed to buy $600-800 new Tivos? Every 2 years I guess, if the cable companies are going to keep doing this.

If you always want the latest and greatest, and the FCC doesn't step in and do their job, yes.

Personally, if this comes out the wrong way, I'll still be extremely happy to use my S3 with either Fios or Basic Cable + OTA HD's

[Monty2_2001]

That's not the same thing. 'Latest and Greatest' and 'only lasts a year or 2'.. hmm.. If it takes buying a new Tivo every 2 years just to keep running at all, then that's pretty annoying isn't it. Unacceptable, I say.

I'd get FIOS, but not here yet, no idea when. Not an option for at least 50% of the USA for the next several years.

[GoHokies!]

Try again, nearly every statement that you made is incorrect.

As fast as technology is changing, you'd be lucky if the latest and greatest lasts a year or two and not 6 months.

And it won't take the latest and greatest "to keep running at all" - lots of threads around here talk about the fact that non SDV channels will still work fine on your S3.

Finally, if Fios isn't an option, basic cable and OTA almost certainly are for much more than 5 the remaining 50%.

[davecramer74]

In what way are they the same basic technologies?


they both stream one channel at a time and both require 2 way communication. How do you think the phone companies are able to do it with their current networks? Cables just throwing this on top of their current getup. Phone companies did it from the getgo. Different technologies, but doing the same exact thing. You request this channel, this is the only channel being broadcast at you. Basically why they setup vlan's on ip networks. Your only going ot broadcast to the guys on your virtual lan local to you and not everyone accross the wire unless you make a request to do so. It makes much more efficient use of your local bandwith. I see the posts in here, call the fcc, email them etc. You have zero complaint. Thats like yelling at microsoft for making their new os and forces you to upgrade. The s3 came out at a bad time. A time where there is major competition for HDTV. These companies are scrambling to be able to provide the content. Just because some company came out with a box that wont be compatible with its new services means nothing. That company needs to make a new box, simple as taht. Your compaints shouild be directed at one company and one company only, Tivo.


ill add that i personally think this uproar is over nothing. By the time this gets fully implemented everywhere, you guys will be bored with your s3 and want their latest product. if your not upgrading your entertainment every 2-3 years, i dont know what to tell you. my pc, my xbox/ps, etc all get replaced. if you dropped 800 on that bad kid, i find it hard to believe your not going to retire it to the bedroom and drop another 8 hundy on a new and improved one.

[jacksonian]

I see the posts in here, call the fcc, email them etc. You have zero complaint. Thats like yelling at microsoft for making their new os and forces you to upgrade. The s3 came out at a bad time. A time where there is major competition for HDTV. These companies are scrambling to be able to provide the content. Just because some company came out with a box that wont be compatible with its new services means nothing. That company needs to make a new box, simple as taht. Your compaints shouild be directed at one company and one company only, Tivo.
I disagree with this. There's no reason whatsoever to complain to TiVo. There's nothing that they can do about the current situation, so they made the best option they could.

The FCC on the other hand has made it clear that they want open competition. But the MSOs have been dragging their feet and trying to sidestep those regulations all the way. If the FCC wasn't making those mandates, then I'd agree with you, tough luck to TiVo.

[Sirius Black]

They should pull the S3 off the market, offer a near total refund for an upgrade to an SDV capable Tivo, or face a class action lawsuit.

Amazing that so many people seem to be so willing to throw away a huge amount of money. I've had mine for just a month, and I'm really miserable about SDV at this point.

I have no idea about what SDV is and I've had my series3 for less than a week.

[Monty2_2001]

SDV is basically going to turn your S3 into a doorstop when (not if) your cable company starts using it. Switched Digital Video, there's a ton of info on here about it.

[Sirius Black]

SDV is basically going to turn your S3 into a doorstop when (not if) your cable company starts using it. Switched Digital Video, there's a ton of info on here about it.

It makes me want to box the thing up and ship it back to Amazon. I don't want to be seen paying $684 for a doorstop.

I'm here all the time and whether this believable or not, I've never seen anything regarding SDV.

I just did a search for "What is SDV" and all I got was that other thread about Comcast. That isn't a discussion about what SDV is. I'll keep looking.

Needless to say. I am not amused.

[ah30k]

Your search is too narrow... Search on "SDV" and you will be flooded with responses. Unfortunately, this forum search tool is not quite as good as "Google" for reading meaning into your search string and returning results in any type of prioritized order. It simply looks for the string "What it SDV". If there are threads that ask "How does SDV impact me" your search will not find it.

[classicsat]

I have no idea about what SDV is and I've had my series3 for less than a week.

SDV basically sends you the channel as you request it, much like VOD, rather than it being there and just tuning it. The rub being the request requires backchannel communication, which the Series 3 TiVo and much any open Cablecard device cannot do.

Yes, in that concept it is like IPTV, except with IPTV, the back request is made on the same IP channel that the video is sent on.

[stoli412]

I think we need to be clear on what SDV is not. SDV is not IP video (nor is VOD). SDV (and VOD) still broadcast video on a QAM channel. The difference is that QAM channels are dynamically provisioned at your local node instead of statically at the headend. This saves bandwidth because the same QAM channel can be used differently at each node in the system. Node 1 may be using QAM channel 120 (just a number I made up) to send an HBO OnDemand movie, while Node 2 is using the same QAM channel 120 to send a live feed of Sci-Fi Channel. Node 1's HBO movie finishes, so QAM 120 is reassigned to start sending The History Channel. No one is watching the SciFi Channel on Node 2, so QAM 120 is reassigned and starts sending BBC America.

The reason that the S3 cannot work with SDV or VOD is because the box needs to tell the video server/node/headend (depending on configuration) to provision an unused QAM channel and begin sending a particular program (or TV network) over it. The S3 does not have the necessary hardware to communicate that information. And even if it did, there is no standard communication protocol for VOD/SDV: each system or even different parts of the same system can communicate that information in completely different and incompatible ways.

CableCard 2.0 was supposed to solve this situation by allowing full two-way communication, but the cable companies and consumer electronics industry cannot come to an agreement. The cable companies want to push down their own guide and DVR software to your box. The CE industry obviously would never agree to that, as it would negate the point of opening up cable boxes to competition -- innovation. Who would buy a TiVo Series3 (or any other retail DVR box) if it had Comcast's horrendous iGuide DVR software, especially when you could get the exact same horrendous software direct from Comcast with no upfront cost?

What's the solution? It's too early in the game to tell. My guess and hope is that the FCC will step in and either a) put the brakes on SDV, or b) force an agreement on CC 2.0 that bans cable companies' guide/dvr software from being pushed down to consumers' boxes (or at least make it optional).

[kjmcdonald]

What's the solution? It's too early in the game to tell. My guess and hope is that the FCC will step in and either a) put the brakes on SDV, or b) force an agreement on CC 2.0 that bans cable companies' guide/dvr software from being pushed down to consumers' boxes (or at least make it optional).

Agreed.

I don't see SDV being banned.

While technically possible, I don't have a crystal ball that can see any add-ons being made for the S3.

What I am hopeful for is that the FCC/CE/MSO's will decide that it's acceptable for the 'sandbox' that the OCAP software runs in to be a second tier user-interface, with the main interface still left up to the CE vendor.

This opens the door to a S4 with a CC2.0 HW in it, that would just have say (theory here) a main menu item called 'Cable Features' or 'Cable Applications' which would bring you into the OCAP sandbox and allow you to access the OCAP things that your MSO has Downloaded to your box. They could even add a 'Cable' button to the remote to take you straight to the OCAP sandbox.

To me this seems like a doable solution. I haven't found any technical reason it couldn't work. Politically would it work? I don't think it will happen like that without pressure from the FCC.

The Cable Companies want the Walled Garden to themselves, not just a sandbox.
The CE Vendors want OCAP (and other parts of CC2.0??) gone to reduce costs.

No matter what I think it's going to take pressure from the FCC to find a compromise.

-Kyle

[stoli412]

OCAP is middleware. It provides a common platform to provide interactive cable services. The ComcasTiVo is an example. While technically not built on OCAP (it's a "precursor to OCAP"), it allows the TiVo software to run on Motorola boxes (and others in the future), access OnDemand, and (presumably) SDV when it becomes available. The TiVo software tells the OCAP layer what it wants to do, and the OCAP layer knows the communication protocols necessary in order to accomplish the task.

For that reason OCAP is actually desirable, and it reduces costs for the developer. The cable companies however are trying to push through an additional requirement for CC 2.0: that boxes download and run their own guide/VOD/DVR software on top of OCAP. There is absolutely no technical reason for this; it is simply an effort to maintain control of the environment.

The "sandbox" idea for cable company software could work, but the guide, VOD, DVR, PPV, etc ... all should be handled by the software on the box (eg TiVo). The cable companies' versions of this software should never be downloaded unless you request it. However, the sandbox could be used for unique, non-standard features and services offered by the cable company. Some examples could be paying your bill, playing games, video/music store. At the same time, unique services and features provided by the box (eg TiVo's HME apps) would not be hindered or blocked.

This is all probably a pipe dream. In pushing the requirement to use their own software, cable companies can eliminate the very reason the CableCard standard was created -- competition -- and in the process stifle innovation and consumer choice. They know the CE industry will never agree, and they're hoping the whole CableCard effort will just die. I think the FCC should have something to say about that, and I hope they decide to act.

[kjmcdonald]

The "sandbox" idea for cable company software could work, but the guide, VOD, DVR, PPV, etc ... all should be handled by the software on the box (eg TiVo). The cable companies' versions of this software should never be downloaded unless you request it. However, the sandbox could be used for unique, non-standard features and services offered by the cable company. Some examples could be paying your bill, playing games, video/music store. At the same time, unique services and features provided by the box (eg TiVo's HME apps) would not be hindered or blocked.

Whether or not you need to request the Cable Guide software, what's important to me is that it's out of the way unless I go looking for it. I don't care if it sits on my machine unused. As far as DVR functionality, I would think that a Tivo made this way would advertise itself like a STB with no DVR functionality, so that the DVR software wouldn't show up at all. VOD and PPV, If I want them I go looking.

This is all probably a pipe dream. In pushing the requirement to use their own software, cable companies can eliminate the very reason the CableCard standard was created -- competition -- and in the process stifle innovation and consumer choice. They know the CE industry will never agree, and they're hoping the whole CableCard effort will just die. I think the FCC should have something to say about that, and I hope they decide to act.

As DT_DC said somewhere (this thread?) the FCC is only required to assure that the products become available. If the CE vendors are deveopling and marketing products (and it appears they are) then there isn't much cause for teh FCC to do anything.

I guess in my idealistic world the CE vendors would refuse to make anything until Cable relinquished some control over their 'walled garden' idea, and then with no products available, the FCC would have reason to force the MSO's to compromise.

-Kyle

[stoli412]

As DT_DC said somewhere (this thread?) the FCC is only required to assure that the products become available. If the CE vendors are deveopling and marketing products (and it appears they are) then there isn't much cause for teh FCC to do anything.

I guess in my idealistic world the CE vendors would refuse to make anything until Cable relinquished some control over their 'walled garden' idea, and then with no products available, the FCC would have reason to force the MSO's to compromise. I agree, but if the cable companies are shown to be deliberately breaking functionality (as SDV does with CableCard 1.0) and in turn are gaining an unfair competitive advantage, I think the FCC would be right to step in. They're violating the spirit of the agreement. The cable companies don't have to do SDV. They could easily solve their bandwidth issues by reducing the analog lineup to a handful of "lifeline" channels. And if they actually worked with the CE industry, analog customers could buy very inexpensive boxes to access the channels that have gone digital.

Also, the cable companies want the CE industry to give up and stop making CC products. They know the CE industry will never agree to their demands for CC 2.0, and they're betting the FCC won't do anything about it. And let's face it, in the current political climate they're not likely to.