Only one option for OTA tuner?

[MediaLivingRoom]

So there is only one Option for OTA Analog and or digital.

The Series 3, Right?

All Series 2 Dual tuner version, do no have any OTA tuners, Only (dual) analog cable (Channels 1 to about 125) or (one analog cable with an external source (IE Digital Box, etc)

[ZeoTiVo]

With no single tuner that is correct and has been seen coming for a while now. If I wnated to go OTA I would only look at options that would record HD anyway.

[MediaLivingRoom]

With no single tuner that is correct and has been seen coming for a while now. If I wnated to go OTA I would only look at options that would record HD anyway.



I wonder if there is any class action suit about this? Tivo use to have OTA Analog tuner for about $100 and now the only option is $799. Is there any way that this causes a threat to the public as a whole by not offering a reasonable replacement for the Single tuner OTA analog and digital for the March 1, 2007 at a resonable cost to what was removed.

[rainwater]

I wonder if there is any class action suit about this? Tivo use to have OTA Analog tuner for about $100 and now the only option is $799. Is there any way that this causes a threat to the public as a whole by not offering a reasonable replacement for the Single tuner OTA analog and digital for the March 1, 2007 at a resonable cost to what was removed.

Moving forward, there is absolutely no market for analog OTA. So there is no reason to provide a cheap solution for this.

[Dan203]

This is not TiVo's doing. The FCC has issued a mandate which requires all devices sold after February 1st which offer OTA support to include an ATSC tuner. From TiVo's perspective supporting ATSC would require pretty much all the same hardware that's included in the S3. Which means a "low end" hardware platform that supports OTA would cost nearly as much to manufacture as the high end S3. Since that's not conductive to their pricing structure they decided to simply remove OTA support from their low end product instead.

This is far from class action worthy. There is no requirement for any company to produce a product that supports OTA. The only requirement is that if they decide to support analog OTA then they have to also support ATSC. TiVo has simply decided that it makes more business sense to them to simply forego support of OTA altogether, and that is entirely within their rights.

Dan

[stevel]

Not only that, but as of as few months from now, it will be illegal to manufacture for sale a product that tunes in analog OTA and not digital OTA.

[TydalForce]

I believe there are some refurb single tuner units on the "Web Specials" page
Those will receive analog VHF and UHF, as well as analog cable

At least until such things are no longer broadcast

[ZeoTiVo]

I wonder if there is any class action suit about this? takes a drink
Is there any way that this causes a threat to the public as a whole by not offering a reasonable replacement for the Single tuner OTA analog and digital for the March 1, 2007 at a resonable cost to what was removed. and what damages would you be going with? Did someone go out and scop up all the ones already out there? This was seen coming, The FCC mandated you had to support digital along with analog and TiVo saw no market in increasing the cost of the single tuner nor even the dual tuner when it was introduced, adn I agree - why would get an OTA tuner that would not let me record all the free HD stuff out there on the digital side. Sure 600$ is expensive and I do not have one currently myself I imagine if I looked around I could find a cheap OTA tuner

[aus1ander]

Not only that, but as of as few months from now, it will be illegal to manufacture for sale a product that tunes in analog OTA and not digital OTA.

What about old-fashioned tube TVs with analog tuners? Are they exempt?

[MediaLivingRoom]

It's almost like offering new homes by clearing out the old ones and not offering low price home to the people who are harmed by the cost of staying with their neighbourhood.

[ZeoTiVo]

It's almost like offering new homes by clearing out the old ones and not offering low price home to the people who are harmed by the cost of staying with their homes.
this is hardly the same as affordable housing or food to eat. it comes a bit lower on the scale of needs than that.

[lessd]

What about old-fashioned tube TVs with analog tuners? Are they exempt?

NO !

[gastrof]

It's almost like offering new homes by clearing out the old ones and not offering low price home to the people who are harmed by the cost of staying with their neighbourhood.


Actually, what it's really like is not allowing the sale of a device that will only work for two more years and then be worthless.

As said above, the govt. has said that it's not legal to sell an OTA television device in the US unless it can receive digital signals. If it can receive analog OTA too, well and good, but it HAS TO have a digital tuner.

As also pointed out above, a device that can do OTA digital and analog would be in the same price range as the Series 3....

So why make another when the Series 3 exists?

The fact all new electronic devices are pricey when they first come out is a part of life. Given time, machines like the Series 3 will cost less. How much less? We gotta wait and see.

In the meantime, you can NOT sell a TV device without it having the ability to get OTA digital, so OTA analog-only devices are gone for good, and the combo units cost'ya.

[c3]

I wonder if there is any class action suit about this? Tivo use to have OTA Analog tuner for about $100 and now the only option is $799. Is there any way that this causes a threat to the public as a whole by not offering a reasonable replacement for the Single tuner OTA analog and digital for the March 1, 2007 at a resonable cost to what was removed.

Please go ahead with the class action suit, after you file the one for the ridiculous subscription prices.

[CraigHB]

There's just no future in analog TV. I think the days are numbered for the series 2. Not only will OTA be completely digital in a couple years, but cable companies will probably follow suit (although they are not mandated). It will suck for people still on analog, but digital TV is much better and people will be happy in the end. It's a win-win. Broadcasters get their bandwidth and we get much better audiovisual quality.

[cooper243]

How is it a win-win for those people that can't afford digital tv? I guess I'll be stuck listening to Sirius, if it's still around.

[rainwater]

How is it a win-win for those people that can't afford digital tv? I guess I'll be stuck listening to Sirius, if it's still around.

There are affordable "SDTV" sets already on the market. Unless a $10 antenna is too much, many people will have access to digital stations in their area.

[Dan203]

What about old-fashioned tube TVs with analog tuners? Are they exempt?

Nope. In fact the whole point of this was to ease the transition from analog OTA to digital in 2009. So from here on out it's illegal to sell any TV which does not have an ATSC tuner. Even if the TV is still only SD resolution.

Dan

[atmuscarella]

Just a couple of comments:

Digital does not necessarily mean HD, the FCC mandate is for an OTA analog to digital conversion there is no requirement to go HD
Most OTA digital is still SD only some sports and prime time shows are HD
You can buy a SD 27 inch TV with digital and analog OTA tuners in it for under $300
All LCD and Plasma TVs are not HD - some Plasma TVs are ED, I have seen SD LCD TVs being sold at Walmart.


The cost to add a digital OTA tuner to a Series 2 TiVo based on the info I have seen is somewhere around $20-40. My guess is TiVo has determined it isn't worth their time to do it. This could easily change as we approach the OTA analog shut off point if TiVo determines there is still a market for a SD OTA DVR.

Thanks,

[stevel]

Also, the feds are supposed to offer two $40 (I think) vouchers to each household good towards converter boxes that tune in digital OTA and convert to NTSC for the old sets. I haven't seen these boxes on the market yet, but they're supposed to be coming soon.

[ADent]

Not only that, but as of as few months from now, it will be illegal to manufacture for sale a product that tunes in analog OTA and not digital OTA.

Try a few weeks - 3/1/2007.

[classicsat]

Not only that, but as of as few months from now, it will be illegal to manufacture for sale a product that tunes in analog OTA and not digital OTA.

Actually, just manufacture/import.

It is my understanding that vendors are allowed to sell off any non-compliant analog-only tuners/sets in stock after that date, and with the JIT nature of much of the system, that shouldn't last very long.

[CraigHB]

How is it a win-win for those people that can't afford digital tv? I guess I'll be stuck listening to Sirius, if it's still around.I was in Best Buy the other day and was curious about the low-end TV's they're selling. I saw ATSC TV's for under $200. Otherwise, if someone can't afford the small amount of money it will cost for a converter (with voucher), they probably have bigger problems. Even with a converter box, there will still be some benefit for the consumer. As far as Series 2, I would be surprised if TiVo doesn't plan to support any of these converter boxes. There's really no down side.

As far as inconvenience, how often is it necessary to go through some amount of hassle to upgrade or replace a computer. People generally don't get too upset over that. Why should upgrading TV be any different. It's been half a century since anything has changed in the way TV is broadcast OTA.

[DeathRider]

How is it a win-win for those people that can't afford digital tv? I guess I'll be stuck listening to Sirius, if it's still around.

As long as Howard is around, Sirius should still be around... :rolleyes:

Sorry, I can't afford satellite radio...actually I could, I just find it more of a luxury than a nescessity. There is still AM/FM radio available :D

Since TiVo is no longer the only option, there are other DVRs around...if TiVo had a monoploy on the market, then there might be something there.

Scientific American podcast for 1/31/2007 has a spiel about digital TV...

I don't see it mandated that TiVo has to provide OTA capability, otherwise the cable and satellite DVR manufacturers would be as well.

[Adam1115]

I wonder if there is any class action suit about this? Tivo use to have OTA Analog tuner for about $100 and now the only option is $799. Is there any way that this causes a threat to the public as a whole by not offering a reasonable replacement for the Single tuner OTA analog and digital for the March 1, 2007 at a resonable cost to what was removed.

It isn't TiVo's fault that it costs more to redeisgn their box to support ATSC and that there isn't much of a market for it. There are VERY few people that buy a TiVo for strictly OTA...

And how is it a threat to the public? It's more of a threat to be watching time shifted content than turning your live tv on.. sounds like they're doing you a favor!

BTW, the CHEAPEST OTA STB's are around $200... without TiVo. There are no SD OTA Digital STB's out here afaik so far...

The cost to add a digital OTA tuner to a Series 2 TiVo based on the info I have seen is somewhere around $20-40. My guess is TiVo has determined it isn't worth their time to do it. This could easily change as we approach the OTA analog shut off point if TiVo determines there is still a market for a SD OTA DVR.

Uhm, what? $20-40 for what? The cheapest STB's out there are $200. Show me one $20-40 STB? Or even $100?

Not worth their time? Time is money! It would cost a substantial amount of money to redesign the S2DT to support ATSC. And they've determined that there is no market for it, they are right. That's why you can't even find a digital STB that isn't HD. The only real market for digital OTA is for HDTV owners.

I can't think of ANYONE paying $13/mo for TiVo record only analog OTA....

[kb7oeb]

Most OTA digital is still SD only some sports and prime time shows are HD


You must not have HD yet, almost all scripted network programing is HD now, even the low rated My Network TV. Every network show I watch is in HD except for scrubs and the animated shows on Fox.


Uhm, what? $20-40 for what? The cheapest STB's out there are $200. Show me one $20-40 STB? Or even $100?

It can't be that expensive to downconvert to SD because there are SD tv sets in the $200 price range that include internal ATSC tuners.

[atmuscarella]

Originally Posted by Adam1115
Uhm, what? $20-40 for what? The cheapest STB's out there are $200. Show me one $20-40 STB? Or even $100?
Who said anything about an STB costing $20-40? The $20-40 cost is the cost to add a digital tuner to an existing device and comes from the information on how much it costs TV or VCR manufactures to add a digital tuner. If it only costs a TV or VCR manufacture $20-40 to add a digital tuner then that's all it should cost TiVo.

Originally Posted by Adam1115
I can't think of ANYONE paying $13/mo for TiVo record only analog OTA.... Well all I used my first Tivo for was OTA analog for over a year, I know have it connect to a dish STB also but both of my TiVos are used 95% for just analog OTA.

Originally Posted by Adam1115
The only real market for digital OTA is for HDTV owners.
Guess I better tell my father to stop watching digital OTA TV on his SD TV and go back to his poor analog picture. During the last 1.5 years there has been several million SD TVs sold with digital OTA tuners in them my gues is more than a fee people are watching OTA digital on a SD set. Also the FCC has determined there is 70 million +/- analog TVs only being used for OTA only - my guess is that in 2 years the market for digital OTA will become very large.

Originally Posted by kb7oeb
You must not have HD yet, almost all scripted network programing is HD now, even the low rated My Network TV. Every network show I watch is in HD except for scrubs and the animated shows on Fox. Interesting I believe if you re-read what you quoted from me we said about the same thing. I understand there is a little more "scripted" TV than prime time but I think we meant the same thing. What I was saying was that out of the 24 hour day most hours of OTA is still not HD also old reruns that a local station has upconverted to 720p or 1080i are not HD, it isn't any different than what your HD TV does to non HD content and in my area all the subs stations are SD and this includes the CW network (which is only broadcast as a substation digitally). So in my area the vast majority of digital TV is still SD.

Thanks,

[Adam1115]

You must not have HD yet, almost all scripted network programing is HD now, even the low rated My Network TV. Every network show I watch is in HD except for scrubs and the animated shows on Fox.



It can't be that expensive to downconvert to SD because there are SD tv sets in the $200 price range that include internal ATSC tuners.

It's a lot easier to slap a tuner into a TV than redesign a DVR to accommodate another set of dual tuners, redesigning both the hardware and the software to support and record them, your basically suggesting they redesign a totally new DVR for a small percentage of people.

Who said anything about an STB costing $20-40? The $20-40 cost is the cost to add a digital tuner to an existing device and comes from the information on how much it costs TV or VCR manufactures to add a digital tuner. If it only costs a TV or VCR manufacture $20-40 to add a digital tuner then that's all it should cost TiVo.

And MY point was that it will cost a HELL of a lot more than $20-$40 dollars to completely redesign their DVR to accommodate dual ATSC tuners and rebuild the software to support it... All for a VERY small group of people.

Well all I used my first Tivo for was OTA analog for over a year, I know have it connect to a dish STB also but both of my TiVos are used 95% for just analog OTA.

I didn't say NOBODY does this, it's just such a minuscule amount of people that there isn't a market for it....

Guess I better tell my father to stop watching digital OTA TV on his SD TV and go back to his poor analog picture. During the last 1.5 years there has been several million SD TVs sold with digital OTA tuners in them my gues is more than a fee people are watching OTA digital on a SD set. Also the FCC has determined there is 70 million +/- analog TVs only being used for OTA only - my guess is that in 2 years the market for digital OTA will become very large.

Good for your Dad, there's nothing WRONG with watching Digital OTA, but the HDTV market is growing fast and is the future. It just doesn't make sense to build a DVR for this market... If you think it's going to be huge, maybe you should start an OTA DVR company...

Interesting I believe if you re-read what you quoted from me we said about the same thing. I understand there is a little more "scripted" TV than prime time but I think we meant the same thing. What I was saying was that out of the 24 hour day most hours of OTA is still not HD also old reruns that a local station has upconverted to 720p or 1080i are not HD, it isn't any different than what your HD TV does to non HD content and in my area all the subs stations are SD and this includes the CW network (which is only broadcast as a substation digitally). So in my area the vast majority of digital TV is still SD.

Almost all prime time is HD, many popular daytime shows. Lumping all programming into an average makes no sense. Sure, I guess if your addicted to cartoons and infomercials your SOL, but as far as mainstream popular programming, it's all pretty much HD. I'm trying to think of things I've watched that AREN'T HD. Even our evening news here is in HD!! The only thing that comes to mind is Survivor and The Apprentice...

[atmuscarella]

Adam1115

I think we actually agree on many thinks:

HD is the future, 2006 was the first year HD TVs out sold SD TVs and it looks like 2007 will bring more HD channels
Demand for SD DVRs is/will decrease over time
At this point adding a digital OTA tuner to a SD DVR would most likely not increase SD DVR sales enough to off set the development costs.


There are somewhere around 300 million SD TVs in the US so I believe the market of people watching SD TV will be large for many years. That said TiVo hasn't been able to convince very many of the 100 million + households watching TV to purchase a TiVo yet, so even though I think the SD TV market will be large for many more years I dought many of the people in it who haven't purchased a TiVo yet will.

I honestly don't understand why TiVo has some much trouble getting into peoples homes, the Series 2 single tuner has been close to free after rebates for over a year now (both of mine were free after rebates) and this still hasn't done much for them.

Thanks,

[ashu]

Sheesh, OP, with a username like that, one would think you'd be a little better informed than pounce on the chance to say 'class action lawsuit'.

[ewilts]

You must not have HD yet, almost all scripted network programing is HD now, even the low rated My Network TV. Every network show I watch is in HD except for scrubs and the animated shows on Fox.

A typical network HD channel may only have 2 hours of HD between 6pm and midnight. Fox tonight has 2 hours - American Idol and Bones. That's it. ABC on Tuesday and Friday nights here has 1 hour of HD - the rest is SD being broadcast on an HD channel. Sunday night, Fox has ZERO hours of HD. Let's not even begin to talk about daytime!

HD programming is still rare.

.../Ed

[CraigHB]

I think TiVo needs to come up with an inexpensive subscriptionless device, say a single ATSC/NTSC tuner and a basic service. It would do more to promote their paid service without spending an arm and a leg on advertising. And, they could make some money off the hardware. Also, if they integrated a pay for view download service, that would also provide opportunity for revenue.

[Adam1115]

A typical network HD channel may only have 2 hours of HD between 6pm and midnight. Fox tonight has 2 hours - American Idol and Bones. That's it. ABC on Tuesday and Friday nights here has 1 hour of HD - the rest is SD being broadcast on an HD channel. Sunday night, Fox has ZERO hours of HD. Let's not even begin to talk about daytime!

HD programming is still rare.

.../Ed

Of course 10 year old reruns of the simpsons and seinfeld aren't going to be in HD....

As far as Fox on Sunday, my schedule shows X2 is running in HD with 5.1...

I watch very little OTA that isn't HD... Even my news is in HD...

[c3]

A typical network HD channel may only have 2 hours of HD between 6pm and midnight. Fox tonight has 2 hours - American Idol and Bones. That's it. ABC on Tuesday and Friday nights here has 1 hour of HD - the rest is SD being broadcast on an HD channel. Sunday night, Fox has ZERO hours of HD. Let's not even begin to talk about daytime!

HD programming is still rare.

.../Ed

Why are you picking the worst channel/timeslot combinations? Even SD on a HD channel has much higher quality than straight SD in my area.

[atmuscarella]

Adam1115,

What HD news are you getting? None of the major networks evening news is HD yet.

http://www.hdtvgalaxy.com/whatson.php

How about we agree on this:


In obsolete time terms most OTA digital broadcasts are not HD
Most new OTA network programming is in HD
If an individual watchs more OTA HD programming than SD programming depends on what the person watches.

Thanks,

[Adam1115]

Adam1115,

What HD news are you getting? None of the major networks evening news is HD yet.

BZZZZZT! Sorry, NBC. 9news is in HD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KUSA-TV

KUSA produces nearly 49 hours of local news a week. It is currently the only Denver station that broadcasts local news in HDTV. KUSA also owns the market's first high definition helicopter, "SKY 9", which it shares with KOA-AM. KUSA produces two weekday and five weekend newscasts for its sister station, KTVD.


How about we agree on this:


In obsolete time terms most OTA digital broadcasts are not HD
Most new OTA network programming is in HD
If an individual watchs more OTA HD programming than SD programming depends on what the person watches.

Thanks,

Ok, agreed. I guess my contention is that since most new primetime shows are in HD, that's 99% of what I watch.... So to me, 99% is in HD...

[TydalForce]

BZZZZZT! Sorry, NBC. 9news is in HD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KUSA-TV



WPVI in Philadelphia is HD too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WPVI#Action_News

[kb7oeb]

I think I drove this off track a bit and HD doesn't really matter if an sd tivo with digital tuner existed. ( I picture the cheap digital convert in SD tv sets used to feed the mpeg2 encoder). It would work in 2009 and provide a much better picture today.

As far as networks if Fox has two hours of HD in one day then the entire network for the day is in HD. Everything else is programed by the station not the network.

NBC has lots of network HD, they have hours of Today, primetime and then both late night shows. Yes they still have some network SD but its a minority now days.

[GoHokies!]

WPVI in Philadelphia is HD too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WPVI#Action_News

As is WUSA 9 in DC.

I think that he was talking about the networks national news broadcast - didn't NBC announce that they were going to be the first to start this soon?