Rupert Murdoch's secret TiVo(NDS)

[Enrique]

NDS:

"We're an infrastructure supplier. If there is one thing we are religious about, it's not to compete with our customers. TiVo failed with DirecTV because it didn't understand that," Richardson said.


http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/02/news/companies/nds/?postversion=2007020214

[JimSpence]

Actually, TiVo failed with DirecTV because Murdock thought he had a better idea.

[gastrof]

And what customers does he think TiVo is/was competing with? Did DirecTV even HAVE a box with a DVR, originally?

And it's not like DirecTV was dragged kicking and screaming into supplying boxes that included built-in TiVos to their customers. TiVo couldn't have done it without cooperation between the two.

[NoCleverUsername]

According to the article, NDS considers DirecTV a customer, so I think the guy quoted in the article was probably referring to the standalone TiVo which could be considered competition for DirecTV because it also supported cable, Dish, & antenna.

[dmdeane]

Actually, TiVo failed with DirecTV because Murdock thought he had a better idea.And because he owns NDS, IIRC. Some "competition"!

[dmdeane]

According to the article, NDS considers DirecTV a customer, so I think the guy quoted in the article was probably referring to the standalone TiVo which could be considered competition for DirecTV because it also supported cable, Dish, & antenna.
How does that compete? The standalones are more expensive and can't do the things that the integrated satellite DVR boxes can do.

[kb7oeb]

Tivo's not the only one, they got rid of all the 3rd party receivers.

[NoCleverUsername]

How does that compete? The standalones are more expensive and can't do the things that the integrated satellite DVR boxes can do.I don't agree with the guy, I was only trying to "interpret" what this NDS guy might be thinking in response to gastrof's post.

It's not competition in the price/feature of the unit sense. It's competition in the sense that if the standalone TiVo isn't being used w/ DirecTV, then that end-user is obviously not a DirecTV customer and therefore must be a customer of DirecTV's competition, namely Dish, cable, or OTA.

Does that make more sense?

[Billy66]

I think in the paragraph above the one posted he was explaining about being behind the scenes etc. Allowing DTV to brand the box as theirs, they take any gain (or loss) to their own name. With TiVo, it was a co-brand, so any gains made in their partnership bolstered TiVo's ability to compete with DTV with products such as the S3.

I don't blame TiVo for protecting their brand. This tidbit does shed some light though where a rift could have developed between the two.

Obviously, the development of a Comcast TiVo would be seen as a competitive product to DTV. Who knows what kind of discussions were had about that.

[CraigHB]

I think Rupert Murdoch was the worst thing that ever happend to DirecTV. I left them because of him. Fortunately for D*, he's gone now. Liberty Media Corp. is the new owner and I would bet they don't want anything to do with NDS. That's Murdoch's frankenstein. The only reason they dropped TiVo was to pocket the royalties. It's the total opposite of what they claimed about it. It came down to money and control and that's it. DirecTV couldn't care less about their customers. Hopefully that will change with the new ownership. However, I've just invested in an S3 with lifetime service so it will be long time before I ever go back to them. Good riddance.

[HiDefGator]

Liberty Media Corp. is the new owner and I would bet they don't want anything to do with NDS.

I would bet that you are wrong.

[samo]

I think in the paragraph above the one posted he was explaining about being behind the scenes etc. Allowing DTV to brand the box as theirs, they take any gain (or loss) to their own name. With TiVo, it was a co-brand, so any gains made in their partnership bolstered TiVo's ability to compete with DTV with products such as the S3.

I don't blame TiVo for protecting their brand. This tidbit does shed some light though where a rift could have developed between the two.

Obviously, the development of a Comcast TiVo would be seen as a competitive product to DTV. Who knows what kind of discussions were had about that.
That and TiVo yellow star ads. Direct competition for advertisement money. Another one is a TiVo claim of deploying 4 million DVRs with 2/3 of them being sold and marketed by DirecTV. DirecTV ended up spending money to promote TiVo advertisement platform reach.

[CraigHB]

That and TiVo yellow star ads. Direct competition for advertisement money. Another one is a TiVo claim of deploying 4 million DVRs with 2/3 of them being sold and marketed by DirecTV. DirecTV ended up spending money to promote TiVo advertisement platform reach.And...I don't care what D* thinks about promoting TiVo. The fact of the matter is they lost me as a customer. TiVo was just such a huge threat to their business. How terrible of them to inflict that on me. God forbid they might not have me totally captive...I hope they crash and burn.

[Billy66]

And...I don't care what D* thinks about promoting TiVo. The fact of the matter is they lost me as a customer. TiVo was just such a huge threat to their business. How terrible of them to inflict that on me. God forbid they might not have me totally captive...I hope they crash and burn.

Wah wah.

DTV is a business and they make money a lot of ways. The pennies they made on your account will be recouped as part of their bigger plans. They're in business to make money. Satisfying you (or anyone) is something they do only when it is compatible with making money.

DTV gave and then made more money for TiVo than they have ever been able to make on their own. Why would they continue to prop up a company that intended to use that hand up to compete?

[CrispyCritter]

DTV gave and then made more money for TiVo than they have ever been able to make on their own. Why would they continue to prop up a company that intended to use that hand up to compete?I agree that DirecTV was very important for TiVo (years ago). However, in the short term there's no way that the NDS switch has been profitable overall for DirecTV/NDS. It's probably years away from the breakeven point; DirecTV has its eyes on the long-term situation.

In my view, the cause of the TiVo-DirecTV breakup was the issue of control long-term, in particular, the issue of advertising revenue. That's what TiVo is counting on in the long-term, and that's what Murdoch was unwilling to concede to TiVo. If the advertising model starts to bring in substantial revenue, NDS is in now in the position to get it. Murdoch doesn't (or didn't) lose.

Liberty has no such issue. If advertising works, it's either TiVo or NDS that's going to benefit the most; Liberty is not a player in the DVR market at all. Given that, they can pay primary attention to which is the better DVR for the price now. They could very well decide to go back to TiVo.

The point is that the competition between NDS and TiVo was not on a level playing field with Murdoch in control of DirecTV. It should be now.

[DeathRider]

I think a S3 based DTiVo would be sweet :up:

[Jonathan_S]

Liberty has no such issue. If advertising works, it's either TiVo or NDS that's going to benefit the most; Liberty is not a player in the DVR market at all. Given that, they can pay primary attention to which is the better DVR for the price now. They could very well decide to go back to TiVo.

The point is that the competition between NDS and TiVo was not on a level playing field with Murdoch in control of DirecTV. It should be now.Or Liberty might decide they want a piece of any DVR advertising action and make a DVR choice based on which company they can get to promise them a bigger portion of ad profits.

As much as I'd like to have DirecTV offer DTiVos again, just because they no longer have Murdoch linking them to NDS doesn't necessarily mean they will decide to go back to TiVo.

[CrispyCritter]

As much as I'd like to have DirecTV offer DTiVos again, just because they no longer have Murdoch linking them to NDS doesn't necessarily mean they will decide to go back to TiVo.Oh, I agree. But at least there's a chance now, where there wasn't before. Sharing revenue is one thing; sharing control is something else.

[bhughes]

In my view, the cause of the TiVo-DirecTV breakup was the issue of control long-term, in particular, the issue of advertising revenue. That's what TiVo is counting on in the long-term, and that's what Murdoch was unwilling to concede to TiVo. If the advertising model starts to bring in substantial revenue, NDS is in now in the position to get it. Murdoch doesn't (or didn't) lose.

Liberty has no such issue. If advertising works, it's either TiVo or NDS that's going to benefit the most; Liberty is not a player in the DVR market at all. Given that, they can pay primary attention to which is the better DVR for the price now. They could very well decide to go back to TiVo.


I see things bit differently. I recently bought an old S2 Directivo (HDVR2) because I am disappointed in the current DTV/NDS offering and have done quite a bit of reading on all this in the last few weeks. It seems that people see NDS as a competitor to Tivo, and in a hardware sense I suppose that is true, however; Tivo is a service company that needed to build a product to provide that service. NDS is a hardware company. There may be a revenue sharing agreement between NDS and DTV but I doubt it. NDS simply provides the platform that DTV and SkyTV use to provide their DVR service. Much like the manufacturers of CATV equipment sell Head End and settop hardware to Cable companies so they can provide their service.

Now having said all that, there is obviously a significant relationship between the quality of the DVR service and how the user perceives the service overall. I for one want to be able to watch recorded shows in my workshop (I am never in there sitting down to deciding what shows to record so I want to be able to watch shows that I recorded on my Living room DVR) and create a library of movies that I can store on a server for later retrieval and watch anywhere in my home. In order to do that it seems that I need to start dinking with Tivo. I also want to store the movies in the original digital format with the surround sound and as far as I can tell I need a Directivo for that as well. Once I get an HDTV in the next year or so I suppose I will be looking for a new provider. I am hopeful that the Cox / Tivo deal will bear fruit by then.

As for Liberty Media, make no mistake John Malone likes to make money as much as Murdoch does. He certainly pissed off enough people when he was CEO of TCI the first of the hugely integrated CATV Companies. It is interesting that the Tivo site shows that Liberty Digital, a Liberty Media Subsidiary, as an Equity Partner. I have not researched what the relationship may be. As a fairly satisfied DTV customer I can only hope that is makes sense for DTV to begin supporting Tivo based DVRs in a real sense.

Well, that is enough for a first post. I am sure you will see me on other threads once I get my access card next week and begin wading into the apparently wonderful world of Tivo and Tivo hacking. I appreciate this community and hope to learn from and contribute to the knowledge that is contained here.

[dmdeane]

I don't agree with the guy, I was only trying to "interpret" what this NDS guy might be thinking in response to gastrof's post.
Yes I understood that.
It's not competition in the price/feature of the unit sense. It's competition in the sense that if the standalone TiVo isn't being used w/ DirecTV, then that end-user is obviously not a DirecTV customer and therefore must be a customer of DirecTV's competition, namely Dish, cable, or OTA.
That's a big conclusion to jump to though; most people who have standalone TiVos without DirecTV service were never going to opt for DirecTV service in the first place. Considering the DirecTiVo boxes were literally being given away with a service commitment, and were better boxes to boot (dual tuners, etc), and had monthly fees more than half less than the standalone TiVo monthly fees....well, anyone who didn't opt for a DirecTiVo at that point was never going to get DirecTV service anyway.
Does that make more sense?Yes, I understand what you mean. It still seems a pretty weak argument for NDS to make, though. Especially since NDS "competes" by virtue of being owned/controlled by the same person who owned/controlled DirecTV (not anymore, fortunately). IMO it's just NDS grasping at straws trying to find explanations that divert attention away from the real reasons why NDS has a relationship with DirecTV.

[HiDefGator]

It is also possible that Tivo told DirecTV that they were the dvr experts and they would tell DirecTV what they needed.

And NDS came along and said, "what do you want us to make for you?"

[ashu]

It is also possible that Tivo told DirecTV that they were the dvr experts and they would tell DirecTV what they needed.

And NDS came along and said, "what do you want us to make for you?"

Pity there was a communication gap somewhere there, because what NDS made (at least the first iteration) seems to be a stinky PoS compared to the HR10 from TiVo!

[jmoak]

DTV is a business and they make money a lot of ways. The pennies they made on your account will be recouped as part of their bigger plans. They're in business to make money. Satisfying you (or anyone) is something they do only when it is compatible with making money."Satisfying you (or anyone) is something they do only when it is compatible with making money."

man.....

From a consumer point of view, that's just damn depressing.

It's the absolute truth, but still.....

[ashu]

Really? Depressing? Let me tell you about Soviet Russia, where they did things differently ... oh, wait. Never mind :rolleyes:


:D

[Gregor]

The point is that the competition between NDS and TiVo was not on a level playing field with Murdoch in control of DirecTV. It should be now.

I would like to think so, but we don't know what contracts NDS wrote with DTV that are still in force.

NDS has a very successful DVR with SKY in the UK. Last time I checked, it was hard to get one, as they were always completely sold out.

For people who have never seen a Tivo, any DVR functions are magical, which is why the non-Tivo DVRs are doing so well in the market.

[CraigHB]

For people who have never seen a Tivo, any DVR functions are magical, which is why the non-Tivo DVRs are doing so well in the market.Just like anything, you like what you are used to. In my case, one of the things that keeps me with TiVo is that I know it and I like it. There may be other DVR systems that are decent and useable (I believe the Moxi is pretty well received) and people using those systems may prefer them. Case in point, I was talking to someone at a dinner party about movies and TV. The subject of DVR's came up and she said, "Oh, I like my dish DVR better." I have a feeling she's never actually used a TiVo and I didn't get into a debate with her, but fact based or not, it's how she felt.

[samo]

Just like anything, you like what you are used to. In my case, one of the things that keeps me with TiVo is that I know it and I like it. There may be other DVR systems that are decent and useable (I believe the Moxi is pretty well received) and people using those systems may prefer them. Case in point, I was talking to someone at a dinner party about movies and TV. The subject of DVR's came up and she said, "Oh, I like my dish DVR better." I have a feeling she's never actually used a TiVo and I didn't get into a debate with her, but fact based or not, it's how she felt.
I have 11 DVRs-
2 SA Tivos (dropped them about a year ago, but have been using them since '99)
2 R10s
1 R-15
4 DishPVRs 5XX
1 VIP 622
1 HR-20
Of all DVRs I ever used my first choice would be VIP 622 from Dish, my last choice would be SA TiVo. Different people have different preferences and needs.So even if your friend used TiVo before, I can come up with at least dozen reasons why she might prefer dish DVRs to TiVO.

[Deacon West]

I can come up with at least dozen reasons why she might prefer dish DVRs to TiVO.

O.K., I'll bite. What are the dozen + reasons for prefering a dish DVR to TiVo?

[samo]

O.K., I'll bite. What are the dozen + reasons for prefering a dish DVR to TiVo?
Wich models do you want me to compare? Apple to apple - like HR10 to VIP 622 or apple to orange like series 2 SA to DishPVR SD receiver? :)

[Tivoli]

I would bet that you are wrong.

Why not? Liberty already said they want to drop NDS and switch to a different smart card supplier. Why can't they do the same for DVR supplier? Also note that before Murdoch bought DirecTV, DirecTV was suing NDS. Then as I recall NDS counter sued DirecTV. Soon as Muroch took over the law suits were dropped. It got really nasty between DirecTV and NDS. if you remove Murdoch from the equation I suspect the bad blood between the two will resurface. And for the sake of consumer I hope Liberty does allow Tivo to compete with NDS, which should not be too difficult since NDS still has not shaken out all the nasty bugs from their software. So much so the DirecTV CEO (or the spokesman on the Q results call) mentioned that NDS had a lot of bugs and they have been fixing and making progress. But still, not matter how dress up a dung, it is still dung. Wheres as Tivo, Tivo has name recognition, loyal followers, customer satisfaction and far superior product overall. NDS, who the heck is NDS? They like to stay in the background my foot, they would kill to have name recognition like Tivo. If Liberty is smart, they will bring back Tivo DVR.

[Deacon West]

Wich models do you want me to compare? Apple to apple - like HR10 to VIP 622 or apple to orange like series 2 SA to DishPVR SD receiver? :)

How about comparing the best overall E* DVR (VIP 622) to the best overall TiVo (S3).

[Billy66]

Some would argue the best overall TiVo is the HR10-250.

[samo]

Reason she might prefer Dish VIP-622 to TiVo S3 (in no particular order):
1. RF universal remote.
2. Two independent outputs - she can watch a show on her HDTV while she is dumping another show on DVDR or have her kids watch cartoons on another TV.
3. She likes PIP while she is searching in a guide (of course she can turn it off if she doesn't want a spoiler).
4. She also prefers fast grid guide to TiVo simi-transparent tablet.
5. She likes to have caller ID.
6. She likes instant 30 sec skip vs somewhat delayed hacked version on TiVo.
7. She likes her PocketDish that allows her to transfer 1 hr show in 5 minutes.
8. She likes interactive TV features.
9. She likes to have 4 favorite lists of channels instead of just one. This way she can group them in categories like sports, movies, kids and locals.
10 She likes to order PPV by push of the button and doesn't want to call every time she want to watch PPV movie.
11 She likes to use keypad on her remote to type names of the show for searches instead of picking letter by letter on TV screen (did I mention that she has an RF remote?)
12. She has plasma TV and likes an idea of having screensaver so she doesn't worry about burn in issues when her DVR is on pause.
13. She can chose to receive upgrades automatically or allow them on demand to insure that if new software has a bug, she doesn't have to wait for 3+ months to get it fixed.
14. She likes to receive all channels she is paying for instead of writing letters to FCC about SDV.
These is just few things that came to her mind when I asked her. I'm sure she can come up with more if she wanted to spend some time thinking about it. :)

[samo]

Some would argue the best overall TiVo is the HR10-250.
I never had HR10 nor S3, but just reading forums and considering that MPEG4 issue on HR10 is offset by SDV issue on S3, I tend to agree with you.

[ashu]

Some would argue the best overall TiVo is the HR10-250.

They would be wrong.

[Billy66]

They would be wrong.

Why would an S3 be better?

Here's what someone might argue for the HR10-250

Cheaper to buy
DVR service 70% less than TiVo ($6 vs $19)
No fee for additional units
Able to record PPV with a button press
Able to record Sunday Ticket
Proven with it's content provider (vs many cableco related issues to work out)


What's the counter ashu?

[Kobra]

NDS:

"We're an infrastructure supplier. If there is one thing we are religious about, it's not to compete with our customers. TiVo failed with DirecTV because it didn't understand that," Richardson said.


Anything that Rupert Murdoch owns, I would never touch with a 10 foot pole. I want nothing to do with his power mongering or Fox Noise Channel, ever, period. They've caused enough harm to this country already.

[ashu]

Why would an S3 be better?

Here's what someone might argue for the HR10-250

Cheaper to buy
DVR service 70% less than TiVo ($6 vs $19)
No fee for additional units
Able to record PPV with a button press
Able to record Sunday Ticket
Proven with it's content provider (vs many cableco related issues to work out)


What's the counter ashu?

No MPEG4 (although the S3 can't yet do SDV, making that a semi-wash a few months/year down the line)
Only DirecTV (eww HD Lite)

And $19 is an exaggeration. In faact isn't the S3 still only 12.95 per month? In any case, no one buys a $600ish device wondering whetehr they'll use it beyond a year :)

[Billy66]

No MPEG4 (although the S3 can't yet do SDV, making that a semi-wash a few months/year down the line)
Only DirecTV (eww HD Lite)

And $19 is an exaggeration. In faact isn't the S3 still only 12.95 per month? In any case, no one buys a $600ish device wondering whetehr they'll use it beyond a year :)


No MPEG4 is an advantage the S3 has? That makes little sense. MPEG4 today is only for LIL HD channels I get OTA. There are no national channels anyone is missing out on currently due to MPEG2 vs MPEG4 issues.

$19 is the most, $13 the least, so make it a 54% savings instead of 70% less. Still no charge for additional HR10's and like $7 per for the S3

What were the S3 advantages again? You said a person claiming the HR10 was better would be wrong, on what are you basing that?

I said it was arguable and maybe I'm wrong about that because you aren't offering any argument.

[DeathRider]

$19 is the most, $13 the least, so make it a 54% savings instead of 70% less. Still no charge for additional HR10's and like $7 per for the S3

I know it's been awhile since looking into DTV, but is it still $5/month per box after the first one (main reason I didn't go DTV years ago). That's how it was when I climbed up on my friend's roof and installed his dish (he doen't have DTV now, since he lives in an apartment and they don't allow having a dish installed).

Back then, I didn't have TiVo, but did have 3 vcrs hooked up to cable, plus 3 tvs. If I had DTV, would need a dual LNB, 2 multiplexers, and 6 receivers - like I said, this was years ago...only had dual LNB dish, 2->4 mmultiplexers, so would need 1 to make 4 outputs, 2 to make 6 outputs, and 3 to make 8 outputs.

Do you still have to connect all your receivers to a landline so DTV knows they are all in the same location? I'm just wondering, since I haven't had a landline in 9 years. If so, I would have to add that to the cost of DTV.

NM, found it:
http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPage.jsp?assetId=500009

Now, does that mean if I have my own equipment and not leasing theirs, there's no $5/month per additional receiver?

[Billy66]

There is still a mirroring fee of $4.99 for each additional receiver to mirrow programming, that mirrors the TiVo service too. I suppose with the S3 that means the cost for 2 additional cable cards each month along with the $7 in extra Tivo fee.

I think on the phone line you do not need it, but if you don't hook it up, you can't order PPV from your remote.

You pay the $5 either as a mirroring charge to your owned receiver, or a "Lease Fee" with free mirroring for a leased receiver. It's a wash.

[ashu]

You didn't address the pseudo-HD DTV broadcasts.

That the S3 can receive REAL HD (OTA or cable) is ana dvantage.

yeah, the HR10 can also receive OTA, but not the premiums in an enjoyable quality if you have a good TV.

You have some kind of pro-DTV axe to grind, and I'm happy to have you have the last &and subsequent) words on this ... go ahead. I'm done :)

[Billy66]

No axe at all ashu. I simply said it was arguable. You are the one with a preference that you're having a difficult time expressing.

You made the blanket statement that anyone claiming the HR10 was/is the best Tivo would be wrong. Maybe they would. I never said the opposite. Be clear on that.

I'll give you full 1980x1080 HD cable broadcasts, the MPEG4 DTV are that as well.

For cost, content and overall performance it's definitely an arguable situation for those 2 units.

[ChuckyBox]

No axe at all ashu.
What's next guys? You going to start arguing about which Dr. Who is the best?

[Deacon West]

Reason she might prefer Dish VIP-622 to TiVo S3 (in no particular order):
1. RF universal remote.
2. Two independent outputs - she can watch a show on her HDTV while she is dumping another show on DVDR or have her kids watch cartoons on another TV.
3. She likes PIP while she is searching in a guide (of course she can turn it off if she doesn't want a spoiler).
4. She also prefers fast grid guide to TiVo simi-transparent tablet.
5. She likes to have caller ID.
6. She likes instant 30 sec skip vs somewhat delayed hacked version on TiVo.
7. She likes her PocketDish that allows her to transfer 1 hr show in 5 minutes.
8. She likes interactive TV features.
9. She likes to have 4 favorite lists of channels instead of just one. This way she can group them in categories like sports, movies, kids and locals.
10 She likes to order PPV by push of the button and doesn't want to call every time she want to watch PPV movie.
11 She likes to use keypad on her remote to type names of the show for searches instead of picking letter by letter on TV screen (did I mention that she has an RF remote?)
12. She has plasma TV and likes an idea of having screensaver so she doesn't worry about burn in issues when her DVR is on pause.
13. She can chose to receive upgrades automatically or allow them on demand to insure that if new software has a bug, she doesn't have to wait for 3+ months to get it fixed.
14. She likes to receive all channels she is paying for instead of writing letters to FCC about SDV.
These is just few things that came to her mind when I asked her. I'm sure she can come up with more if she wanted to spend some time thinking about it. :)

Does she also like doing business with a company who was found in Federal Court to have infringed on TiVo's patents? I guess imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, even if it might cost you a sheckle or two. :)

Seriously, I accept you answers as arguable preferences, even if my (and my wife's) preferences are entirely different. The WAF is huge in my house, so if indeed your wife does prefer the VIP, I certainly can understand you sticking with it.

[samo]

Seriously, I accept you answers as arguable preferences, even if my (and my wife's) preferences are entirely different.
Exactly the point I was trying to make. Had you asked me to come up with dozen features that I like about TiVo or DirecTV HR-20, I could do it too. There is no right or wrong about UI on any of the DVRs. This is a matter of personal preference. Just like cars - I been driving Cadillacs for last 25 years, but if somebody prefers Ford or Toyota cars, I'm not going to try to change their mind.

[Phantom Gremlin]

I know it's been awhile since looking into DTV, but is it still $5/month per box after the first one
...
Now, does that mean if I have my own equipment and not leasing theirs, there's no $5/month per additional receiver?
This fee (regardless of terminology) is for each box after the first, regardless of whether you own it or not. (Other posters have already said this).

What I didn't see anyone mention is that the cable companies have "additional outlet" fees. At the moment those don't (usually) apply if you only have local broadcasts and a few of the more popular cable channels like CNN. But once you want to view something that is on "digital cable" then you will incur those AO fees.

In my neck of the woods, premiums like HBO are digital. So are favorites like Speed Channel and many many of the kids channels. And the AO fees are greeater than what DirecTV charges for additional receivers.

And you can't get out of the cable company's AO fees if you buy an S3. You still have to pay, because you're not paying for the box, you're paying for the programming.

[CraigHB]

Also, some providers charge a subscription fee as well a a box rental fee. Comparing my setup (lifetime S3 w/cablecards and HD via OTA only) to their DVR with HD package, going with the cable offering would be around $30 per month more. Granted, I only get HD locals, but I do get a couple my provider doesn't carry. And, I have a TiVo instead of a Moxi which is worth something.

[BobCamp1]

What's next guys? You going to start arguing about which Dr. Who is the best?

There's no arguement here -- it's Tom Baker. :D

Suddenly I have a craving for jelly babies.